In this episode of AyahuascaPodcast.com host Sam Believ has a conversation with Ana Sa
We talk about psychedelics and femeninity, quantum healing hipnosis, importance of integration.
Find more about Ana here
https://www.instagram.com/anasa.wellness?igsh=MWllNXV4anU1OWI5cQ==
Transcript
Sam Believ (00:02.015)
and welcome to ayahuascapodcast .com as always with you the host Sam Belyev. Today we’re going to interview Anna Sa. Anna is founder of Anna Sa Wellness. She’s an integration coach and psychedelic facilitator. Anna welcome to the podcast.
Ana Sa (00:20.734)
Thank you, Sam. Thank you for inviting me. I’m happy to be here.
Sam Believ (00:25.077)
Anna, tell us a little bit about your story. I know you had a rough childhood. I know you were homeless at some point. How did you go from loss and heartbreak to faith and love?
Ana Sa (00:40.646)
Oh yeah, that’s great. Thank you for that question. Yeah, I’ve been through big, big, big things, but so did all of us, right? I think that we all have our story and that story makes, that is our superpower. That’s how we can overcome obstacles and become what we want to become, whatever we dream. So.
Um, to be quite honest, I don’t even like as a look back, I don’t even think as, uh, so, so much of a heartbreak, but a heart expansion, I would say. So I like to think that when we have this idea of heart being broken, it’s not really broken, it’s cracked for more space to grow into there. And, and it’s my understanding, my personal understanding that through that expansion of the heart is that we find ourselves.
our purpose and our service. So I would say in a simple way that I overcome by allowing my heart to expand by feeling the feelings within that crack and let it expand into what it’s meant to be.
Sam Believ (01:50.801)
So you also like to speak about transmuting the pain. How did that help? How was that process?
Ana Sa (01:56.126)
Yeah.
Ana Sa (02:00.862)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we were talking a little bit before we got started here that I always was curious about experiences in life, all of them.
my mom used to tell me that I was like a shy, quiet kid that would be in the corner. But depending on the energy of the places, I would get home and have certain kind of reaction. So in other words, those days we know as empath of like really collecting energies that are in the outside. And then as a kid, I didn’t know how to express. So very young age was expressed as with eight years old through migraines. I had like
really really really intense and terrible migraines and that was my first kind of curiosity about pain being curious about what that pain was trying to to inform to inform me and I was medicated from volume to
better blockers for migraines to anti -psychotic meds and all kinds of things. And at some point after maybe 10 years dealing with that, that I started to study.
meditation and ways in which I could control my own feelings and those feelings not only being the physical but also the emotional is that I started like understanding this idea of how could I transmute how could I how could I change that pain into something that was beneficial for me so I think that there was that was the beginning for me experiencing physical pain.
Sam Believ (03:54.357)
And then in the journey, sort of transformation, you went through what roles have plant medicines played or maybe what specific plant medicines have you worked with?
Ana Sa (04:06.91)
Yeah, that’s a great question because it started with cannabis. It was when I was 24 was the first time that I experimented with cannabis. I had a mother that was traumatized by a brother that was killed by drugs, by drug addiction.
by you know being addicted to cocaine and being taken in the streets of Brazil by drug dealers and just killed and never found their bodies so she was always like very protective with us as the daughters how to stay away from so my idea was always like never touch anything until we experienced this very intense migraine very intense pain and with
was prescribed all kinds of drugs that never worked and I decided for myself to experiment with cannabis and it was the beauty of cannabis at that point and it was the one that opened the doors for my curiosity for blood medicine was that it didn’t make the pain go away but it made me be with the pain with more acceptance and space which allowed me to go more
go deeper into the source of how to transmute that pain. So it’s totally related because it’s from that experience that I started to open myself up to the possibility.
Sam Believ (05:39.797)
Well, I also do agree that cannabis is another plant medicine as well and it can be used that way but there’s also a way to abuse it and let’s say use it without the right intention or use it too often and just use it not to transmit the pain but just to run away from the pain. What would your recommendations be for somebody to use cannabis responsibly and ceremonially or with an intention?
Ana Sa (06:08.958)
Yeah, that’s a great question. I agree with that. And I think that all only cannabis, but even in certain ways, if you talk about ayahuasca, that can also be abused by some in a different way, right? Because they are different energies and different things that they work within the signature of the plant medicine. So that’s definitely something to observe. And I think my biggest advice in this is,
terms of understanding what that relationship and how the relationship should be should be an internal questioning really because ultimately we know when we are reaching for something that is to mask a pain or to avoid getting in touch with something or to bypass.
something that we have to experience. I am of the belief system that all the tools, all the resources, all the answers are within and that’s the reason why I have chosen the path.
the path of service that I have chosen, which is all guided to this personal knowledge to go within and get to know yourself and know what is in right relationship with you and how to relate with others, including plant medicine.
Sam Believ (07:32.853)
That’s a great answer. So talking about plant medicines, since you’re from Brazil I would assume you have been in touch with the Brazilian ayahuasca tradition. Can you tell us about it?
Ana Sa (07:50.398)
Yeah, you know, I would love to talk to you about that. And since we’re talking about in general, plant medicine, and in this case, it’s not plant medicine, but is what is considered to be within the umbrella of psychedelic as a therapy, even though it’s not a classical psychedelic either. MDMA was my next experience after cannabis.
And I think that one it’s important to how eventually guided me into Ayahuasca because it was really a beautiful experience to when we are talking about the heart and the crack and the opening of the heart that allowed me to then be into this place of self -compassion and self -love.
that supported me to understand even deeper what was manifesting my headaches and all this understanding of the empathy that was opening the doors for those things to be manifested through pain. So I just wanted to put a parenthesis in there because I think that’s very important in Chang ‘e, how I guided and opened the path for me to continue to explore myself. And…
interesting fact is that I did not get in touch with ayahuasca when I live in Brazil. I live in Brazil for 26 years, the time I was born, until the time that I moved to the United States. And when I moved here, I moved to get married and to, because I fell in love with a Brazilian American man, and I moved here. And I stayed married for 10 years until I, the marriage,
broke it off and it was a successful marriage I consider, but it broke it off in a way that is always, always heartbreaking because we never think that this can happen. And that’s when I really, really decided to go even deeper into this journey of getting to be with the pain to transmute it. Um, and then, um, ayahuasca showed up in my life and, and we are talking about maybe things that we could talk in the podcast. And one of the things that I suggested is this magic, right? Is this.
Ana Sa (10:09.438)
Calling that that happens or at least happened with me and and I feel it is a common thread In the people that end up Experimenting with with ayahuasca this this calling that comes from a place that maybe you hear from someone and just that hearing just gets okay now I’m going to research and and
And that’s kind of what happened with me as I was going into that search and through documentaries and through reading books, something, a message came up to me that I should look into ayahuasca. And I was looking into it and looking how the shipibo holds space in Peru and how much is present into.
Brazil into the Amazon, into the Brazilian Amazon, of course. And that’s when I kind of like was the first call for me of like exploring ancestrality because just the call of the medicine told me like you need to reconnect with your roots. And not long after that, I would say maybe even like three days after that, I had the opportunity to to experience in the United States, not in Brazil.
Sam Believ (11:33.877)
Yeah, it’s funny you mentioned the calling because a lot of people tell me that sometimes I’m the messenger, you know, through the promotion that I do for our retreat, the Lawyra. So it’s also one of the reasons, I guess, for this podcast to create information and to also…
allow people as I said you know you started reading and listening and hopefully it can be in somebody’s journey to get ready because for me personally from learning about the ayahuasca to doing it I think at least two years have passed because it’s a serious commitment so you talk to you talk about reconnecting to your roots can you talk to us about
Ana Sa (12:14.366)
Yeah.
Sam Believ (12:22.965)
how it looked for you, that process.
Ana Sa (12:27.646)
Yeah, yeah, wow, that’s really what it is for me that since the first time that I had the contact with the medicine, it was first this idea of like, okay, we connect with the roots because it’s like Brazil, it’s the medicine that comes from Brazil. So that was the first, my first conscious or at least linear thought, right? Until I had the experience. And within those experiences, I start like,
feeling the pain of my own mother through the experience, the many pains that I knew in the surface that she went through, but the medicine kind of showed me the within and that guided to the suffering of my grandmother. And then understanding how my own scars and pains are related to that as well.
everything started to make sense. My grandmother is a direct descendant of the Africans that came to be slaves in Brazil in the south of Bahia. And that’s when my mom was born. My mom was a fruit of an assault of an European man in my grandmother. So my grandmother really seen my mom as…
as this oppressor and has mistreated her a lot. So it was a lot of pain on that relationship. But through the experiences, I was shown like roots of the African lineage and how attracted I was in a deeper level to some of these spiritual connections with Yoruba lineage and culture and spirituality.
And within a experience with the ayahuasca, I was in this spiritual work of the Santo Daime. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the Santo Daime. And because that’s how I experienced ayahuasca mostly, through the Santo Daime. I was singing the hymns of this woman that it’s one of the elders of the Santo Daime and it’s also
Ana Sa (14:55.23)
one of the 13 indigenous international grandmothers. Her name is Maria Alice. Maria Alice Freire Campos is her name. And she has a collection of hymns. And her study is within the Yoruba also spirituality. That’s how she educated herself spiritually. And it has a lot of that influence into her hymns. And I have very, very, very strong spiritual opening in there. And…
Um, it was in that moment revealed to me so many things and how, how my service should be. And we are talking a little bit about this transmutation of pain. I was sharing with you that I was listening to Bob Marley the other day, vibing to Bob Marley. And, and I got to think for a second about his, his life and how it was full of suffering, abandonment and violence and, and, uh,
a lot of pain and he transmuted that pain into his service, which is his art, his music to all of us because when we listen, we really feel impacted. And that is what those experiences has shown me in terms of ancestrality, how everything is so connected. And I’m just following now that path.
Sam Believ (16:19.731)
And in connecting to your roots, have you felt also the connection to your feminine side and connection to maybe motherly side of mother ayahuasca?
Ana Sa (16:34.11)
Yeah, for sure. It’s right now putting me to think about a lot of things as we witness, witness violence in the world right now, as we witness more oppression. And I feel that this feminine, this feminine energy brings us a quality of care for each other, a quality of care for the mother earth.
which is ultimately what we call the great grandmother, right? Like the mother of all of us. And I give that to feminine energies. I give that to this opportunity that we have to commune and care for each other that’s gonna support us into a new reality. That’s my hope, at least. That’s what I work for.
So I feel like that is a need for this empowerment of feminine energies within all of us, not just women, but men as well. There’s a balance, right? That it’s needed in my opinion. And I think that the medicine has done that for me. So it could embody that feminine side within me. It can embody the qualities of being a caring person.
inviting the qualities of taking care of earth by my gardening, by the little that I can do here being still in the city, but also has awakened within me the desire to be in a community, to be in nature, to be in a place that I can really like take the actions to care for the land and for the community that I’m within.
Sam Believ (18:25.685)
Yeah, I agree with that statement that we do need to do something about our society before we destroy ourselves. And I also believe in it and partially get motivated by the fact that the more people experience ayahuasca, for example, is as they feel their connection to…
each other and to the earth maybe they will feel less desire to hurt each other and maybe less anger and I do believe that it is a bit of a arms race you can say between
who wins first, if the people that are trying to raise the consciousness win, then maybe we get to live some more generations and if we lose then, you know, there’s always a chance of this big war that just destroys us as a species. So let’s hope we win and let’s hope, let’s try and work hard and get more people to wake up and realize that it’s all about love.
Ana Sa (19:31.518)
Yeah, like what Marlee used to say, right? One love. And yeah, let’s continue to work hard. Yeah, listen, it was worth it.
Sam Believ (19:34.869)
Yeah, I need to, I need to listen.
Sam Believ (19:41.863)
So speaking about love and you mentioned opening your heart. How does one know if your heart is closed?
Ana Sa (19:54.558)
Okay, I like that question. I think that I can only again speak for myself and my own experience and what I have noticed by this self observation is I feel that my heart is closed when
The simplest way that I can say is when that is anxiety within my feud. That is this out of alignment of being and trying to control a present situation and not being here with this energy that exists because quite honestly, if you just put the hand on your heart for a second and close your eyes and practice awareness by the beat of the heart.
There is no way that you’re not going to open to the beauty that it is just to be alive and the magic that it is to have this heart beating and it’s going to open, right? So the openness is just the willing to see the magic in life as the way I see it.
Sam Believ (21:00.917)
And apart from the obvious drinking ayahuasca, what else would you recommend for people to open their heart?
Ana Sa (21:14.238)
That’s a simple way that I like to open my heart, which it is to sit with someone in full presence. And what that means, it’s just sit and listen, but listen with all of your being. Listen not to respond or to give an advice or to give anything, but just to listen. Because all…
All that I feel that we’re craving is connection with each other, like real connection. And this real connection is capable of opening our hearts for the magic that life is.
Sam Believ (21:54.709)
What about other things like yoga or meditation? I know you’re big into yoga. Can it help open somebody’s heart?
Ana Sa (22:08.734)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, this ancient practices that brings us so much knowledge, right? I…
I love knowledge. I love to learn. And when I said that I started this process of understanding my pain and being courageous enough to dig into it, one of the things that made this process, and now I understand the process, is that first I started with the body, the physical body. I went to exercise and science for school and worked with fitness for many years because
I wanted to understand this body, this tool first, because since my pain started with the head, so that was always, I was trying to find the answer by working with my own body first. And that naturally guided into, it can’t just be like working out and moving your body, that’s more to this. So I started to explore the mind and be curious about the mind. That’s when I first started to…
studying hypnosis, eryxonia hypnosis, and neuro -linguistic programming. I became fascinated and a friend of mine said, you should try yoga because yoga means union, means like you really understanding the idea of the holistic being, body, mind, and spirit. So why don’t you try yoga? And here it was for my first yoga class, like thinking that I’m a personal trainer, that’s gonna be easy. And I’ve never been so sore in my whole life.
And I got out, I said, this is incredible because I know that this is just not the physical that got kicked. I can’t kick my butt and not just my body. It was more with the challenge of the mind of why not could I do this physical and why my mind is so stuck into that. So that curiosity of getting to know the mind process guided me to yoga. So.
Ana Sa (24:13.416)
The study of yoga and those ancient practices and the holistic being which is what I believe to be the key for disconnection and the key for us to understand that we are not separated in just bodies and disconnection that’s going to eventually lead us into a more kind society.
I think that practice of yoga, but not just the physical yoga, it’s just incredible and can be super beneficial for if you’re preparing to go to a psychedelic experience or an experience with ayahuasca, if you are exploring now your mind and mental health through psychedelics and you don’t have a practice that…
that yet puts you in the state of expansion, right, of understanding of holistic self that can help because one of the things that the plant medicine or the psychedelic experience can give you is this idea of oneness. So you starting to get a little bit of familiarity with what that means for practice that you can do it every day and
and you can carry on with your integration can be highly beneficial and meditation goes in the lines as well.
Sam Believ (25:43.989)
That’s a great segue to what would have been my next question. You’re an integration coach and you mentioned integration. Can you talk about the importance of integration and maybe some specific techniques you could recommend?
Ana Sa (25:59.134)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it’s so interesting because I was thinking about that this week. There was a friend of mine that was telling me that as an integration coach as well that he was noticing that people are not looking for integration on his, his work so much. And we started talking about this and and
we kind of got into the idea that maybe it is a reflection of this immediate society that just wants a quick fix and don’t follow up with the work, right? Which is that idea of the transportation of the pain. I believe that that’s what the integration can do for you. So you, in the psychedelic experience, you get in touch with the possibilities. And then when you come out of the experience,
the integration would mean how can you be in right relationship in order for you to have that possibility becoming real for you on your life, right? Not just in a psychedelic experience, but in practice. And I cannot stress enough how important integration is. And…
I say that exactly because what is an experience without the action behind it, right? What is all the knowledge that I have and that I like to study if I don’t apply it? And that application becomes wisdom. That is wisdom, it’s applied knowledge, right? So yeah, integration is just like, is the most important.
Ana Sa (27:42.174)
of the experience is what is gonna bring ultimately the change in your life that you’re looking for, that you went to seek after your experience, that you went to seek in the first place when you decided to have your experience.
Sam Believ (27:56.629)
So when people leave our retreat we recommend journaling, yoga, meditation, being in nature as aids to assist integration. Can you recommend something specific or maybe explain what is that work? Because I think a lot of people don’t understand how it looks like.
Ana Sa (28:23.102)
Yeah, yeah. All of those things that you mentioned, they are fantastic and they are definitely should be part of an integration process. So the way that I understand integration and I have applied in my life, it’s exactly what I was mentioning before, which is you have this big experience, this very like life changing experience. And now you have a very much real life, right? A nine to five job where you have.
the relationships that in the first place maybe you went to that experience to work on and you have new fresh perspectives of it. I heard this expression once, I don’t know, it’s somebody that is in the psychedelic assisted therapy or psychedelic therapy industry that said it’s like a mountain, a ski mountain that it just came in with fresh snow and underneath that fresh snow that is all the
the old pathways in which folks would go down that ski line or the ski path. And this fresh snow, now you cannot see those paths and you have the opportunity to create new pathways that will make more sense for you, that will give you more joy, that will give you more experiences. But it’s very easy to fall in the trap and to go into the easy ones, right? Because it’s just fresh snow. Now,
If you wanted to create something new, you have to put the effort into create something new. You have to take action. And that integration process is just that. So things like meditation, journaling, it’s great because it’s reflective, allows you to reflect back what you put it out, right? So if it just stays in, it’s hard for you to have that reflection in order to act. So things like that are great and very supportive.
But as a reflection to the reflection of another person with you right there that had that experience, that very ineffable experience, but it can relate to you in a way that can support you to take the actions and can support you with that view of those actions are can be very, very helpful. And that’s what an integration coach can do. In my case, for example, I work with what are called the integrative holistic.
Ana Sa (30:47.854)
approach, which is to do like an inventory, right, as the experience.
Ghost takes its course, right? Is to create an inventory about what I believe to be the five core aspects of ourselves, which is the physical, the mental, the emotional, the community and your environment. So as through this inventory and through the specialties that I have, hypnosis, for example, being one of them, but also,
the study of transpersonal psychology, through that inventory, we can together create a plan of action that can support the integration of that experience into the real life, right? Into the nine to five job, into the relationships, and then real changes can be made instead of just being an elusive, very nice or very intense, very crazy experience.
Sam Believ (31:54.453)
And in your coaching I know you started quantum healing hypnosis do you use it in your coaching and how does it look like?
Ana Sa (32:05.146)
Yeah, I do. I yeah, quantum healing hypnosis technique. This came with alongside with my passion for hypnosis for exonate hypnosis as well. I wanted to dive deeper and this specific style of hypnosis also includes within the process of regression, past life regression or regression into an important moment of your life that has
influence and impact in what you are bringing as that subject to be worked on in our session or in this case in the integration, right? And the idea here is not just to be curious to look into a past life because that’s not I in my studies and within my own practice, I know that the subconscious do not bring it out to the surface.
what is not helpful for the being to move forward as just how the way that the subconscious mind works and And the idea is to go back to inform what it needs to be done in the present, right? So that’s just one part of the quantum healing hypnosis and in the second part is a state of open awareness and expansion.
for you to get in touch with this, with your heart, with really it is that we were talking about earlier in the interview, how when you open the heart and feel the magic of life is that you receive your own guidance and your own answers and nobody else has the answer for you because it’s very unique to you. So the session also opens space for you to get in touch with this part of yourself that.
that has the answers, that has the direction, that can support you in your journey.
Sam Believ (33:57.781)
Thank you, it’s a great explanation. You also work with psychedelic assisted therapy, right? Can you talk to us a little bit, when does the therapy part comes in, what psychedelics you work with, and yeah, how does it look like for people who might be interested?
Ana Sa (34:19.486)
Yeah, yeah. So last year, when you know, my, my, my belief is that folks that wanted to become psychedelic assisted therapists, and now we have a protocol of, of psychotherapists, participating into this process of supporting folks that wanted to go on their psychedelic experience.
My own understanding is that it’s very important, it’s very valuable that you have your own experiences with the medicine itself. I don’t claim to know it all or actually that’s like every time that I get in touch with medicine I understand that I know less and less. But I do have 80 years of experience with the medicine of ayahuasca.
that can inform me to support folks that might be integrating or might go in themselves through that experience and want support with. And I believe that this is crucial in this work. And last year I decided to undergo a one -year course of psychedelic assisted therapy. And this course was directed towards psilocybin. So I have been doing work with folks with psilocybin, but I also have…
co -hosted retreats of ayahuasca in places there are legal to work with the medicine as well.
Sam Believ (35:56.711)
That’s great. That looks very interesting. Psilocybin is also a great medicine. I think it’s a wonderful tool for the healing. What do you think about comparing the medicines or maybe what are the differences and who maybe needs mushrooms or who maybe needs ayahuasca or when? What are your opinion on this?
Ana Sa (36:26.238)
Yeah, I like to think of all those medicines with a unique signature, unique energy, unique vibration. We were talking about cannabis before, we were even talking about MDMA, and even though it’s not a psychedelic, but it has a specific signature. So I feel like that is a signature, a vibration, and in a way that the medicine does the calling to.
going back to the calling, I think that all of them kind of have like that specific kind of like, hey, come, I wanted to interact with you. It’s my work with Amazonian flower essences also gives me the understanding that every single plant plan and every single being of nature has a way to communicate, but we only perceive because we are in this single focus kind of society that.
tends to put things in boxes, we separate ourselves from the way in which nature communicates with us. But I believe that is a unique communication style of each one of them. So when you think of who is the best for each medicine, I think it always is part of a research. And this is what it’s called, like the preparation to, well, now.
We have this understanding of preparation, journey and integration being like the ideal way to dive into this experience. But this investigation, I believe of what’s best comes from this interaction with the person that it’s in either curious or either has something that wants to work with. Now it’s being spoken a lot about PTSD.
and psychedelics and end of life care and psychedelics and just spiritual expansion. So all of those things have to be taken in consideration in my opinion, alongside with that communication because I think that when folks come to, usually what I notice, folks come to ask me for advice or ask me for support.
Ana Sa (38:41.726)
they already come with an idea of what medicine they want to take or what is the calling for them. And sometimes what they need is a little more information about the signature of each of those medicines and also have the network necessary to do it safely. So I think it’s all part of our research rather than just saying what is best for each one.
Sam Believ (39:08.277)
And yeah, well, for those who are listening, whichever medicine you choose to do, do it responsibly, safely, and do integrate. Anna, it was great having you on. It was very interesting, and I think people will like this episode a lot. Anna, where can people find more about you and your work?
Ana Sa (39:17.854)
Yeah.
Ana Sa (39:29.342)
Yeah, they can find me on my website, anasatwellness .com. They also can find me on Instagram. It’s anasat .wellness, at anasat .wellness. Yeah, and they are, if you wanted to talk to me in more personal ways, you can find also in my website, my email, and we can exchange emails in this way as well.
Sam Believ (39:55.029)
And thank you for coming to the podcast. It was a lot of fun and guys, thank you for listening and I will see you in the next episode of Alaska podcast.
Ana Sa (40:05.618)
Thank you for having me.