In this episode of AyahuascaPodcast.com host Sam Believ has a conversation with Ian McCall, former UFC champion turned psychedelic activist.
We touch upon subjects of TBI and Psychedelics, Ian’s research on TBI and Ayahuasca, his journey after UFC retirement, overcoming addiction and suicidal ideation.
Find more about Ian at
His charity and research project
https://athletesjourneyhome.com/sponsors/
Transcript
Sam Believ (00:02)
guys and ⁓ okay ⁓ you got to stop moving stuff because sounds very loud I’ll just start again ⁓ hi guys ⁓ cool ⁓ hi guys and welcome to ayahuasca podcast as always with you the whole assembly of our guest today’s Ian McCall Ian is a mixed martial arts fighter he’s a contender for UFC Championship belt he is now
Sam Believ (00:30)
a psychedelic researcher and consultant and he is the world’s first psychedelic coach for high level sports ⁓ people. So Ian, welcome to the show.
ian mccall (00:42)
Thank you for having me. Thank you. Thank you. ⁓ Yeah, I’m no longer that first coach. I mean, I guess I’m still the first guy, but I shared that title with my friend, Adam Bramledge. ⁓ We both started working with athletes from different sides of sports, different perspectives ⁓ a while back.
ian mccall (01:04)
And I stuck my flag in the ground and I said, I’m the first one. And he was like, I’m the first one. And now there’s a bunch of us, you know, there, there is, I’m building a team of athletes to coach other athletes, ⁓ through this process, you know, we’re, we’ve got, ⁓ you know, mentorship programs and I have my nonprofit that we are.
ian mccall (01:25)
not only bringing athletes through the scientific study that we’re trying to create, it’s the first study of its kind ever using athletes as the case study using ayahuasca to see the effects on traumatic brain injury. And we’re testing everything from genetics to the gut, biome, electricity, everything we can. All these athletes have a lot of brain scans already. So we’re going pretty deep with the testing, bringing the athletes through the healing process.
ian mccall (01:55)
And ⁓ there’s a few options here. ⁓ Athletes, most of them are here because they’re damaged and they want to retire. They want to move on with life and they don’t have any direction. Or maybe they do, but it needs to be galvanized and they need to heal the brain damage that they’ve incurred on their path to greatness. Then there’s also people like Giorgio Gomez, my pro surfer or…
ian mccall (02:23)
Mark the Shark Erwin, who is my very local boxing world champion. I not only won a world title as a fighter, but now I’ve won a world title as a coach. And using psychedelics has been a big part of that. We train on psychedelics, we use large doses of psychedelics, we use, I mean, he won a world title on seven and a half grams of mushrooms.
ian mccall (02:49)
And I was on five in this corner, which is for most people, that’s an absurd amount of mushrooms to be on ⁓ while doing anything outside of laying on a mat crying your eyes out. But ⁓ we wanted to test it and I don’t fight anymore. I’m not the athlete. So he’s my little space monkey that I’m shooting into orbit. And ⁓ you know,
ian mccall (03:14)
I always like to say that good science is irresponsible science. You know, that that’s the way you push the boundaries of our understanding as humans of what we’re trying to accomplish. And I am shockingly not a doctor, not a scientist. I’m just a guy that learns some stuff. ⁓ But being obsessive, ⁓ world champion, you have these mechanisms in your brain that push you to do things more than most. And I got obsessed, especially with my own personal
ian mccall (03:44)
healing. I was like, wow, this is fucking incredible. I was so damaged, I was able to save myself, so I had to tell everybody. I had to research this. I had to figure out a scientific method. I had to build my own method, the McCall method, which the McCall method is turned into something else, but it’s more of a coaching platform now.
ian mccall (04:09)
But using these medicines, I ⁓ healed myself, I’ve helped heal others, but I also saw the performance benefits ⁓ of them, not just for life, but for sports, selfishly. Selfishly, I wanna see people achieve greatness, like I was able to. I lost it all, yes, very dramatically. ⁓ But… ⁓
ian mccall (04:32)
You know, to help them not just be good, but be great. To have a chance to be great. To open up their minds and their bodies to be able to just put on the greatest performances ever because ⁓ that’s our gift to you guys. Is we put our lives ⁓ on the line.
ian mccall (04:50)
Every time we step on the field, in the cage, in a race car, we surf a big wave. We are doing that, yes, for greatness, yes, for money. You know, the accolades, your name is etched in time forever. But we’re doing it because you guys give us the opportunity to do so. Fans, we give the fans hope of life. Most of you guys’ lives are boring, I guess. I don’t know, I’m not a normal –
ian mccall (05:20)
like to live like a normal person. But whatever it is that drives you guys to ⁓ want to celebrate us for riding a 50 -foot wave or beating the shit out of another person in the cage, it’s weird.
ian mccall (05:39)
But sports, like I said, they give people hope and athletes are going to be the next generation or the next version of people that are gonna push healing to the next level. See, first we had our athletes. Pearl Carts Project is very dear to me. They ⁓ saved my life. I’m going back down to the jungles with them in March. No, sorry, in March.
ian mccall (06:05)
in August ⁓ and I modeled my entire non -profit which is Athlete’s Journey Home. I should probably be wearing an Athlete’s Journey Home shirt but whatever. Yeah, we’ll get there. And where was I going? Sorry.
Sam Believ (06:15)
We’ll talk about it later. We’ll definitely mention it.
Sam Believ (06:24)
You went all over the place, you touched so many topics that we’re going to go into in detail. First of all, it’s great because you’re going to be an easy interview. I don’t even need to ask you questions, you just tell stories, which is great. But I want to start first by saying you look great, Ian. You look chill, you look relaxed, you look healthy. So whatever it is you’re doing, you’re doing it right. I watched some UFC, I think I’ve seen your…
Sam Believ (06:53)
your persona before and you look like you’re younger and it’s amazing. I want to tell a little story to listeners. Maybe two months ago or so I was drinking ayahuasca at our retreat right here where we live. And for some reason I had this thought that ⁓ Conor McGregor and Khabib Nurmagomedov should come to my retreat, drink ayahuasca and like heal their relationship. Like that’s the most bizarre thing ever.
Sam Believ (07:23)
just bizarre ayahuasca thought. And I just like, you know, whatever, right? It’s just, it’s a funny story to tell in the word circle. And then ⁓ surprisingly, I saw you and you were talking about TBI and I both had in my list to people to interview. I had the person, I wanted to interview somebody who was a martial artist. And I also wanted to interview somebody who works with TBI ⁓ and you click both of those boxes. And now we’re interviewing people, right? So it’s interesting how.
Sam Believ (07:53)
when you want something or it shows you something then it becomes a reality. ⁓ Before we talk about ⁓ your project, first how does one go from being a mixed martial artist, championship contender, like a very high level elite fighter ⁓ to ⁓ psychedelics and to helping others? What was that transition for you? Tell us about that.
ian mccall (07:57)
universe provide.
ian mccall (08:24)
in plant medicine at a very young age. Too young. I was smoking cannabis by the time I was eight years old. I took LSD for the first time when I was 12. Mushrooms were as a teenager, MDMA as a teenager. It’s just kind of ⁓ psychedelics have been reserved for the wealthy white kids in America. For…
ian mccall (08:51)
you know, for a long time. That’s from my dad’s generation from the 70s until now. And ⁓ my dad, rewind, he smuggled cannabis around the world ⁓ in the 70s, just to see the world, not really for money, but he was able to travel the world and make money and do this. So he also always told me stories about…
ian mccall (09:15)
about how important they were, how healing they were. So that always sat in the back of my mind. My brother has been extracting DMT for over 15 years. He’s the chemist of the family. ⁓ I was ⁓ in a really bad place when I retired. I wanted to kill myself. You know, I’ve…
ian mccall (09:41)
been really close to it more than once. Had a loaded gun in my mouth on more than one occasion.
ian mccall (09:49)
And ⁓ I knew bodies could heal. I already knew that because previously my daughter got very, very sick when I was in the UFC. She got juvenile rheumatoid arthritis. And ⁓ as a family, as a family unit,
ian mccall (10:06)
we healed her with first this diet and exercise. Those are the first two things. You got physical therapy and I was taking her to cryotherapy and I was taking her to sound baths and doing, playing the right music and doing all these sort of things. But I started to give her a high dose Rick Simpson oil, which is cannabis oil. And ⁓ getting high with a toddler is kind of funny, but kind of not, you know, but through the process.
ian mccall (10:34)
I educated myself. I always wanted to be a scientist as a kid. I love information. I was selfishly learning things about human performance the whole time I was fighting because I wanted to be the best fighter in the world. And that’s why I achieved what I did. But…
ian mccall (10:53)
When my daughter got sick, it was a whole new ballgame. I had to go and learn about the inflammatory system on multiple levels. Obviously, the cannabinoid system was the first.
ian mccall (11:05)
Then I started to look in the things, you know, like the gut biome and certain interactions with certain foods and her body and my body and so on. So I had a couple of good case studies. I was always studying myself. I was studying her and I was studying my best friend who passed away. You know, I was just trying to transform it. Him and I both became world champions together and we both at one point were raising my daughter together. My ex -wife and I were not together and I lived with him and he helped me, you know, he was, he was the uncle.
ian mccall (11:35)
So ⁓ fast forward to me being retired, being very damaged, very addicted, heroin, fentanyl, anything really to get me high, women. I was ⁓ a playboy my whole life, and I had a lot of trauma, a lot of mother…
ian mccall (11:54)
I had to deal with. But first I had to deal with my brain damage. And I was friends with Joe Rogan back then. I was on his show a few times. I just got a bunch of signs from all over the place of how important these mushrooms were gonna be for me. So one day my brother serves me DMT on my couch ⁓ and it shows me, look, it’s time to retire. It’s time to grow up and get past this. Look at how bad you’re doing. Like you said, I look younger now.
ian mccall (12:24)
I do because I’ve aged in reverse over the last six years since I retired and That’s with stem cells and peptides and a bunch of stuff, but ayahuasca has been a big part of that mushrooms have been a big part of that So I sat down and I started to read just like when you know Joe and I would would talk about
ian mccall (12:46)
about information about my daughter’s autoimmune disease, I looked at brain damage ⁓ and I looked at the theoretical science of psychedelics of mushrooms, of epigenetic neurogenesis, ⁓ neuroplasticity, all these sort of things. And I applied it to myself. I already understood how the body works. I already healed a miniature version of myself. So I was like, this, this, let’s hope this works. And it did.
ian mccall (13:16)
You know, it took me a while. Psychedelics gave me the thought to get off drugs. Peptides are what really got ⁓ my body.
ian mccall (13:33)
So anybody out there who’s listening, if you’re having a hard time coming off of something like heroin or fentanyl, ⁓ use peptides. Look into peptides for detoxing. Don’t use your Western medicine. The entire Western medicine model has failed me, it’s failed you, it’s failed everybody. So there’s now a lot better routes to take to heal yourself on every level, not just physical but spiritual. So I started to go down the path and ⁓ I…
ian mccall (14:02)
was constantly microdosing something, you know, all the time. Just because I figured, I’m sorry, Fatiman, you know, Dr. Fatiman’s a friend of mine, but his protocol is way too small, or Paul’s stamina, so it’s like one day on, two days off, like all this sort of stuff. I needed an extended period of time to heal my brain. So I understood that, I was doing five days on, two days off, which just seemed to become kind of more normal for people. ⁓ But.
ian mccall (14:31)
started to go down the path, started to meet people like Dr. Fadiman. At the time, I was dating a scientist, a UCLA professor and a scientist and ⁓ an amazing teacher of mine. She’s taught me more than any other person in this world outside of my own daughter.
ian mccall (14:47)
And I had a lot of people, Matthew Johnson from Johns Hopkins, Melissa Dawn from Dawn Scientific. They would see me ⁓ getting more shine from them than them, because they’re scientists, they’re doctors, but nobody wants to listen to them because ⁓ they’ve lied to us a bunch, not them specifically, but that whole model of people has lied to us and hurt us and just poisoned us.
ian mccall (15:16)
So I was able to kind of jump ahead of them and I’ve been in Forbes, I’ve been in HBO, I’ve been in all these accomplishments. The cover of LA Weekly, it said, fight Shaman. The one word I said don’t use with my name was Shaman and they used it of course because it’s media and whatever. It sells exactly. I was annoyed at first but it doesn’t matter, I got the word out. And.
Sam Believ (15:32)
because it sells.
ian mccall (15:41)
As I’m achieving all these things, these scientists would be like, hey, look, like, who are you?
ian mccall (15:47)
What are your intentions? And every person pulled me aside and asked me the right questions. And I just recited all their work. I just said, well, you did this and you did that. I know this, you know that, and this person did that, and they did this. ⁓ And they were just like, whoa, whoa, whoa, okay, yeah, we get it. You know, a lot of stuff. If you’re gonna speak for us, this is how you need to talk. This is what you need to say. This is how you need to make it sound. Because you’re a little off here, you’re a little off there. And everyone just wanted me to just,
ian mccall (16:17)
give the right information, we call it the pollination effect. Whereas the Queen Bee researcher now, I’m the Queen Bee researcher, I’m giving this information to my athletes ⁓ and my athletes are going to go out there and they’re going to use their blue check marks on social media to pollinate all the people that are listening to what they have to say because ⁓ people resonate with sports, they have hope in sports and every athlete that I know…
ian mccall (16:46)
whether they’ve won a world title or not, they have some kid or some person that is like, you changed my life, you saved my life because I watched you do what you did. And that’s a huge impact. I mean, that’s just one person is a big impact. That’s enough. But the fact that these men and women can help me really affect.
ian mccall (17:08)
millions of people, if not more. We start small, we start with their groups, their lane, stay in your lane. You’re a surfer, you preach to surfers, fighters preach to fighters and race car drivers and so on. Obviously, once these athletes go through the process, they get healed. We have analytics, we have data for their brains, which I’m not worried about the data. Data equates to ones and zeros and money and it’s not what I’m doing.
ian mccall (17:38)
but it’s a necessity for donations and whatnot. I’m more interested in the stories that these athletes have to say, you know, because ⁓ trauma only comes in a few different flavors and we all have at least one of them. So…
ian mccall (18:00)
Once we peel back the layers of the brain damage and we’re able to access these people’s real ⁓ bullshit, their deep, deep, deep seated traumas, what are the things that drove you to become the best in the world ⁓ at that chosen sport? Number one, you’re off, you’re crazy, you’re all these things that aren’t normal. You know?
ian mccall (18:25)
But also you on your path to greatness, you lost or you pushed aside all these other life things. How long it took me to figure out how to do my taxes, how long it takes me to do most normal things that people do. I’m still having trouble.
ian mccall (18:43)
I haven’t retired for six years. I’ve been working on myself this whole time. So if I can expedite the process, create an ecosystem for them to heal and then give them work after, give them a job, because most athletes have nothing after sports. And most athletes don’t have money. Most athletes are broke. People are like, you guys are all rich. I’m like, ⁓ no. Most people are broken and broke. You know, they, they…
ian mccall (19:12)
They gave up everything for this shot at greatness and whether they achieved it or not, they lost a lot in the process. And I’m just trying to, as the name says, I’m trying to bring them home. Athletes driven home, bring them home to be that high achieving person. But now in a life of service, you’re going to give your life to service ⁓ and give back to your community. And that doesn’t mean you’re a nun or you’re a priest or if that’s where you want to go, go for it. But I’m saying you’re a life.
ian mccall (19:42)
of service to your community, which is the sport you help build. And the people around you, your family, like I work with a lot of people. It’s not just athletes. I had a client, actually I had a client die yesterday for the first time of cancer, which is rough, but I work with cancer patients and ALS patients and all these ⁓ other variables. A lot of autistic people ⁓ being told I’m on the spectrum as well. I was also a big part of.
ian mccall (20:10)
what I do. So yeah, we’re headed in the right direction right now. We’re just trying to raise the money.
Sam Believ (20:17)
I ⁓ think that understanding that athletes are also, they’re hurt but they’re also very driven and obviously to become an athlete and to become a top performer it means you’re an extra capable individual so if you would…
Sam Believ (20:34)
put them on their own healing journey with psychedelics and with spirituality and then maybe retrain them as facilitators or coaches. It’s a very strong force of nature. Those are very powerful people if you direct this in the right direction. I want to…
Sam Believ (20:50)
mention you said about your daughter and the work with cannabis in the western world it would be something like they would say you know you’re just completely crazy you’re a lunatic like what do you mean ⁓ drugs and kids but in the jungle their kids they take ayahuasca and they go and they play football and they’re way more sane than most western kids so we really need to I don’t say like just give drugs to kids but I’m saying we really need to rethink
Sam Believ (21:18)
how it is and work with psychedelics both for depressed children or depressed mothers or mothers that are nursing. I had an episode on that as well. A lot of people don’t know about me. You know, I run the ayahuasca retreat and this podcast but…
Sam Believ (21:39)
When I was a teenager, I did boxing for eight years. I rarely competed, but ⁓ it was just something. I come from Eastern Europe originally and as a boy growing up in Eastern Europe, you’re expected to do some kind of sports. So, and the reason I stopped doing boxing is because I had a TBI as well. So I fell ⁓ and then I kept doing boxing. So my brain was always.
Sam Believ (22:08)
shaken there was always ⁓ Like every time after the workout I would come out and my head would hurt so That’s why I have a big interest in TBI not only for people but also for myself When I drink ayahuasca and my I haven’t had headaches for a long time now I think I as a side effect because I came to ayahuasca for depression But as a side effect it healed my my headaches as well
Sam Believ (22:35)
Although they subsided as I stopped training but a lot of people don’t understand that every hit you take and even every hit you give Goes back to your brain and shakes it a little bit or that’s with martial arts every fall every movement so athletes they’re all very They’re in pain not just from the brain, but also Like everyone who does any sports as a sports. It’s a very painful ⁓ painful endeavor. So
Sam Believ (23:04)
Let’s talk a little bit about TBI. ⁓ Explain the science to us because I know you’re very good at explaining it. ⁓ The processes that happen in your brain on psychedelics and why it’s helpful for TBI. And tell us your own story with the TBI. How did it progress and how do you feel now?
ian mccall (23:27)
TBI, mine was pretty aggressive because I had a major TBI in high school. I put myself in the hospital for a couple days, snowboarding, hit my face really, really hard. And that I know made my shelf life as a fighter shorter, a lot shorter. But I was also getting punched in the head since I was four years old. I was a martial arts prodigy. You know, so.
ian mccall (23:56)
It was just a matter of time until I couldn’t take it anymore. I was fighting constantly as a kid, constantly getting hit with things. I’ve been hit with bottles. I’ve had ⁓ a lot of ⁓ blows to the head.
ian mccall (24:14)
like an uncountable number of things that happened. And then there was all the addictions, you know, that were attached to all the damage with drugs that caused my receptors and whatnot. This is all damage. This is all brain damage. Now, when you ⁓ take any psychedelic, you have neuroplasticity happen. You have the process of epigenetic neurogenesis ⁓ going on in your body. That’s the production of…
ian mccall (24:44)
Chemicals like brain derived the trophic factor Glutamate these things actually heal the brain. We were told as kids Once you have dead brain cells, you’re never gonna heal them again. They’re dead forever. That’s not true. We can heal the brain ⁓ We can we can make ourselves feel a lot better and We
ian mccall (25:10)
With a big dose, you’re gonna have some great effects, of course, but microdose is where ⁓ I feel like ⁓ the greater healing actually happens on a physical level because you have, you know, you have miracle row in your brain for one day in a big dose or you have it in say a big dose and then a bunch of small doses. Obviously that’s gonna lead the brain to heal itself a little better. You also have the changes in diet.
ian mccall (25:39)
Yeah, people you know everyone who gets into psychedelics looks at other tools like breath work and meditation all these things TBI is not a it’s not a ⁓ Like a one tool sort of thing ⁓ If you’re going to attack your TBI you need to do with multiple multiple tools That’s my best suggestion diet and exercise is always first ⁓ Because not everybody wants to take psychedelics
ian mccall (26:07)
But if you want to speed up the process of your healing psychedelics are the greatest key you can use ⁓ They’re also the cheapest you can go outside and forage for wild mushrooms ⁓ And I talked to people all over the world who are taking this I I was looking to go to Ukraine recently And teach some seminars because some people out there are taking mushrooms and growing mushrooms, you know, it’s like I would love to go to Ukraine right now I don’t care about the war
ian mccall (26:35)
I’m not, you know, like I’ll go, I just, it’s a cool story. And if I can help people, then they can help people. And ⁓ you ⁓ have to do research on your own body. If you’re gonna try to heal yourself, I tell people, go, don’t just listen to us, but go do some research. Go read the papers. Cause again, I’m just a guy. Most people need to hear stuff from like actual white papers and whatnot. And we’re treating that as we speak, but it’s already out there.
ian mccall (27:04)
The reason why I’m doing what I’m doing is because it’s already happened. We already have proof ⁓ that this stuff works. So as the inflammation drops in your brain, your brain can actually heal, your body can actually heal. And most people don’t know that you have serotonin receptors all over your skin too. You have serotonin receptors ⁓ all over most of your body. So when…
ian mccall (27:28)
Those mechanisms are triggered, the 5 -HT2A receptor pathways triggered from psilocybin or psilocin. Psilocybin goes into your body, goes to psilocin. We’ll just use mushrooms for instance. That’s a serotonin analog. So it acts and excites the same receptors.
ian mccall (27:50)
When that happens, you also trigger the BDNF receptor. I can’t think of what that’s called right now. But the BDNF receptor is something that we just heard about like a year ago. That’s actually affected like 5 ,000 times more than the serotonin receptor. Now what all this means is your brain is healing. Your brain’s creating the right drugs to heal your brain. You have four parts of your brain, two hemispheres. Usually those parts all speak to each other.
ian mccall (28:20)
on their own. They don’t speak in conjunction with each other. But now they’re fluently speaking, you’re accessing memories, thought patterns, speech patterns, all these things that start to happen. Your shoulders drop, your smile goes up, and you have an overwhelming sense of just well -being. You know, your agoraphobia or your anxiety, depression, all these things start to start to loosen at least a little bit. Maybe for ⁓ a few hours of the day they’re gone, and you’re like,
ian mccall (28:50)
Okay, I feel this this is working. This is happening. How do I how do I proceed? So you just keep taking and and you can slowly start to become your own citizen scientist ⁓ I tell people if you can buy like an ounce of mushrooms ⁓ and ⁓ Start to measure it out. Don’t just take stuff because that’s gonna work, but it’s not a process You’re just you’re just hoping you don’t get too high Weigh it out and figure out how you like to ingest it whether that’s juice or whether that’s coffee
ian mccall (29:20)
or that’s in capsule form, whatever it is. And you can have this sustained relief ⁓ of ⁓ life because your body and your brain are ready to heal.
ian mccall (29:35)
Then I recommend big doses. If you haven’t done a big dose before this, you’ll want to eventually. And it’s scary, you should be afraid. It is, it’s not, this isn’t fun. This is terrifying for most people. For me, I’ve done 20 grams in the jungle with a Mazatec Shaman and I was scared shitless. You ⁓ get in there and you do 20 years, a lifetime’s worth of therapy in six hours.
ian mccall (30:05)
So.
ian mccall (30:06)
That’s the next thing. Once you break the brain damage, you start to peel those layers off, then you access the body, you access the soul, you access the traumas, and you can really heal. Because for me, I healed my traumatic brain injury, but eventually I realized I was spiritually broken. That was the next piece ⁓ of what I had to get into. That’s been a much more exhaustive search for me than had just taken something, just taken something to feel better. That was simple.
ian mccall (30:36)
I was really really easy eating right I’ve eaten right my whole life worked out I worked out all the time Almost every day I go in the sauna cold point everyone’s all about cold and hot therapy ⁓ that stuff I’ve been doing since high school Just because I had to because of wrestling. There’s not a bragging. It’s just I didn’t know science up until you guys knew it, too I mean maybe a little earlier because that’s what I do is I research these things and I have friends that do the research But ⁓ you know, I just I
ian mccall (31:05)
I keep harping on tools. You gotta get a lot of stuff done. You gotta make this a lifestyle choice because if you go back to being a toxic person, it’s gonna be a lot harder to heal if your vibration isn’t right. Like this works on so many levels and if you really wanna get to the heart of it, you really wanna feel better.
ian mccall (31:25)
You have to change the talk, you know, and neuro linguistics programming and so on. There’s so many things you have to fix through the process because when you’re broken and your brain damaged, you’re depressed. You have the anxiety. Everyone’s against you. You, you, you, your thoughts, you know, jumbled up and confused. So you have to reprogram ⁓ your entire self. There’s, there’s a lot of work to be done within this. ⁓ and that’s why I’m, you know,
ian mccall (31:55)
why I’m doing what I’m doing. I’m trying to build a structure for it so people don’t have to go search for it themselves. They just come home and I welcome them and we take care of them.
Sam Believ (32:07)
So you’re not only working on yourself, obviously getting yourself better and then helping others by coaching them. Now you’re doing this project that’s called Athletes Journey Home, where you organize 10 or 12 athletes to go to the Amazon. So you collect the funds with your charity to go to the Amazon where they drink ayahuasca and you…
Sam Believ (32:34)
make the study on them to observe their results. Can you talk to us about that? Has it already been done and it’s like a second round now or is it still the first one? What are the results so far and why Ayahuasca?
ian mccall (32:59)
universe provides.
ian mccall (33:03)
I did a bunch of work within the mushroom space ⁓ with the UFC. I got the UFC to agree to a study in 2019 ⁓ with Johns Hopkins University. And they also agreed to a study in 2021 or 2022 with the University of Miami. Neither one took place ⁓ because one side or another dropped the ball. And I just ⁓ kind of not giving up on studying mushrooms. I’ll get there.
ian mccall (33:31)
But I was presented this deal because of Heroic Hearts Project. Jesse Gold, who I’ve modeled my entire nonprofit.
ian mccall (33:41)
ecosystem after HHP. ⁓ He says, hey, you should study your people’s brains. Because they’ve done veteran studies with ⁓ certain amounts of TBI, because veterans have subconcussive blows from guns. They have big blasts from getting blown up. They fall. Of course, they have traumatic brain injury. But maybe not as bad as we have it, I guess you could say.
ian mccall (34:13)
I just, it was more or less this was waiting in front of me and I knew I could use this big tool of Ayahuasca at the Ayahuasca Foundation. That’s the thing, this is the highest level of science. You don’t get any higher than this. We’re down at the Ayahuasca Foundation ⁓ in Peru ⁓ with Onaya Sciences, you know, the first PhD of Ayahuasca ever.
ian mccall (34:37)
No psychopharmacologists and people giving TED Talks. My team at OniSciences are killers. They are, it’s probably the wrong word to use. They’re really good at what they do. And I’m proud to call them my friends and my colleagues.
ian mccall (34:55)
We have the framework all set up. It’s just waiting for us to raise the money. It’ll be our first study. Yes, there’s been veteran studies. This will be the first ⁓ of its kind. The first study, if I can raise the entire, all the money by September, great. If not, then the amount of science will kind of.
ian mccall (35:15)
slim down because science is expensive. But I’m leaving the door open. If I can raise all $100 ,000 by then, great. We’ll test everybody ⁓ to the craziest degree we can. ⁓ But more or less, just like Herok Hart’s project did multiple years ago, they start with the story.
ian mccall (35:35)
You know, science is really expensive and I need this to happen as soon as possible. You know, my baronoko boxer, we won a world title last year and we lost a world title last year. All within one year, two of the craziest fights ever. You can check him out, Mark The Sharker would. And by the end, he was in the hospital, ⁓ you know, severely concussed. And as a coach…
ian mccall (36:01)
I want a fighter that is willing to die for me out there. That is willing to put his life on the line for me out there. But to see that almost transpire, to see someone who’s like my little brother almost die ⁓ out there, ⁓ was a lot.
ian mccall (36:17)
I have to get him healed. I have to get my surfer, Giorgio Gomez, healed so he can go on to win his world title. And these are all people who are damaged that are in my ecosystem. So I don’t mean to rush it, but I already have a lot of data on these people’s brains, their hormones, their bodies. So…
ian mccall (36:36)
more importantly is to get the word out just like Heroic Hearts Project did. We go out, we collect the stories. I’ve got an Emmy award -winning producer that wants to shoot a documentary. He’s Jordan Kronick, the guy that put me on Real Sports on HBO, wants to shoot a documentary. We’re shooting a documentary on myself. There’s a lot of substance here. When we get the message out,
ian mccall (36:59)
I keep harping on the vets. The vets kicked the door in for us. They got this the awareness available for us, but veterans are supposed to be nameless and faceless. That’s how it works. They signed something. My mentor, Lanceel team six for 20 years, and he does not like that all these special forces guys have podcasts and whatnot. And I laugh at it because he’s an old man. He’s grumpy. You know, kids these days are their goddamn podcast.
ian mccall (37:29)
But ⁓ now veterans, they let this happen. Now we have athletes that people know, that people can, they can, they’re like, ⁓ I saw you on TV. I saw you win, I saw you lose, I saw you give everything for us. So now our heroes have a face. And this is the next step. I know where the next step is coming after that too. The next step is moms on mushrooms, and moms on psychedelics.
ian mccall (37:55)
But check out that Instagram. Those women are gonna change the world for sure. But us as athletes, as heroes, we’re just the next in line to tell our stories.
Sam Believ (38:00)
Yeah.
Sam Believ (38:05)
Mom on Mush was Tracy T. I interviewed her I think ⁓ maybe 10 episodes ago. Yeah, Moms is next because if you get ⁓ happy moms, then you get happy kids and you get the entire happy generation. So it’s not gonna be easy as it’s going mainstream. It’s not gonna be easy to get it there. So people like you, it’s an important work you’re doing because obviously…
Sam Believ (38:30)
You got popular and you got the celebrity status through fighting. Now you’re healing yourself and you’re spreading the message. So I appreciate what you’re doing. And you know, if you do study on athletes and you mentioned ayahuasca, then eventually it just becomes the thing where people relax and stop judging the things they don’t understand that much. And then, you know, I think over my dream is that within next 10 years we’ll go from.
Sam Believ (39:00)
⁓ what the hell is ayahuasca to when’s the last time you did ayahuasca because ⁓ kind of like it happened to meditation it happened to yoga i think ⁓ psychedelics are next but obviously in a in a very in a very organized matter in such a way that we also don’t lose the tradition and we don’t lose the magic and don’t just you know put in the pill and start abusing it like we did with other other plant medicines ⁓ like cacao coca
Sam Believ (39:30)
⁓ tobacco. ⁓ So what do you, could you share it? So we will definitely link to your page for your project to see if somebody who listens maybe wants to contribute or have something to offer. I’m not rich but I would like to offer if you ever need a retreat center to bring some people, we’ll definitely help you on that side. ⁓
ian mccall (39:54)
Yeah.
Sam Believ (39:55)
So definitely open to maybe after the episode we can talk if there’s something I can do for you maybe maybe some people who are listening as well, but ⁓ Talk to us a little bit about McCall method is it still a thing? What is it and how did you came up with it?
ian mccall (40:15)
Well, it’s, you know, it’s in my LLC and it’s a mixture between the scientific platform, you know, research company and a coaching platform.
ian mccall (40:30)
I might have to start another company to separate the two. I don’t know. I’m not good at business stuff. I’m just flying by the seat of my pants here. ⁓ But it’s my company that I can take opportunities. I do consulting, basically. I do consulting within the space of ⁓ science ⁓ because ⁓ I’ve got…
ian mccall (40:51)
You know, schools like Harvard and Columbia, University of Rochester, these Ivy League schools that are asking me to come and speak. When they asked me last year, I laughed.
ian mccall (41:05)
I don’t have any information. I’m just a talking head. So now I’m trying to go out there and collect this information through the nonprofit ⁓ and expand my capabilities as a researcher. Because I am a researcher. I have more applied science of these medicines than I guarantee you ⁓ over 90 % of the other researchers, maybe more. I’ve used these medicines with so many people on so many occasions in different
ian mccall (41:35)
different variable. So I have to prove myself and I like proving myself. I like proving people wrong. I like showing them that I’m not a dummy, that I’m not just a fighter, you know, that I am this different person that I was meant to be my whole life. ⁓
ian mccall (41:52)
Awareness is key, obviously, as we push through with this. I’ve got a good team, an ecosystem of people. I mean, the McCall method started as ⁓ me giving a platform to the people that taught me what I know. That’s what it started as. So just like with athletes journey home, if I can give, if I can, you know,
ian mccall (42:18)
build this company and have investments or have funds from grants or whatever it is we’re trying to accomplish, then I get to pay my friends to work for me. Seems like a pretty good job, pretty cool thing I can set up because for some reason I’m able to connect this sort of stuff. I’m able to pull this sort of stuff off. And psychedelics doesn’t really pay very well, at least. I know maps just cashed out $100 million.
ian mccall (42:47)
with Lycos, I don’t know if you heard about that, ⁓ but MAPS just sold out, ⁓ shocker. Two pharmaceutical company, you know, there’s that.
ian mccall (43:01)
The pharmaceutical industry, big business, is always trying to take from us. It’s always trying to take from us.
ian mccall (43:09)
I’m just trying to do the Lord’s work here and ⁓ prove good science and keep keeping on what science is supposed to be doing. We’re supposed to be proving things and accomplishing these things we ⁓ want to achieve, you know, and not be deterred by money or be manipulated by some person’s agenda. No, no, no, no. We’re going to be doing the right thing forever.
ian mccall (43:39)
And that’s anything I get my hands on. I’m trying to make sure that there’s a good moral compass behind it. Because science has done us wrong for so long. I’m just trying to be the good guy.
Sam Believ (43:52)
Yeah, I think that you mentioned as well that universe kind of guides you on a certain path and when you wear off it, you will feel it. It will come in as a resistance of some form. So if we’re going the wrong way, it will be known, but.
Sam Believ (44:13)
Yeah, it’s sad what you said about maps. I didn’t know how I always thought of maps as ⁓ a beacon of hope, you know, for the space. But I’m sure people will see through it if it becomes too corporate and too, ⁓ you know, ⁓ money oriented. But ⁓ yeah.
ian mccall (44:36)
Most people don’t know the history of maps. And they don’t know…
ian mccall (44:43)
So my mentor, one of my mentors, Robert Fortek.
ian mccall (44:49)
He was taught how to synthesize MDMA by Sasha Shulgin ⁓ in the lab in Santa Cruz. He wrote the book, Grodur Lucis with Timothy Leary and Rock and Watson. He was also the first person to ever give Rick Doblin MDMA. And Rick Doblin in turn, which is something they were giving away basically for free to all the therapists. Rick Doblin is the reason why MDMA became illegal in the first place.
ian mccall (45:20)
So really, we gotta think about this. He’s been planning this shit for a long time. It’s not this amazing thing that everyone’s so like, it’s the evil org, dude. It’s not, and I probably shouldn’t be saying this, but I’m going to, because they just got bought out by a giant pharma company, so we probably won’t even have another maps conference that I ever wanna go to again. You know?
ian mccall (45:44)
They were taking Soros money. They were doing very bad things, taking money from very bad people. And like I said, Rick did this in the first place. He made it illegal so he could make money off it. It was already being done. And what they’ve done is created a huge gap in now the underground market because Maps is gonna map, okay, Lycos got, they absorbed or didn’t buy it or whatever. They paid $100 million for Maps.
ian mccall (46:11)
Well, then they got absorbed by a much larger, ⁓ what is it? Osaka or Atsuka Pharma absorbed them. So now, MAPS is now a pharmaceutical company and it’s gross. And they’re pushing out all of the therapists where you have to be this licensed this and this licensed that, like you have to be doctor level sort of stuff to get anything done now. This is all coming down the pipe. Just watch. And… ⁓
ian mccall (46:39)
So they’re pushing most of us back into the illegal side of it or the gray market or ⁓ whatever you want to call a church model, whatever you want to take. But this is going to be a big hit. We’re going to see the ripples of it very soon. It’s going to come back and it’s going to bite everyone in the ass. And I found this out yesterday. It’s been eating away at me. I’m like, man, I’m really bummed because, ⁓ you know,
ian mccall (47:09)
outside of all the the woke -ism that was at MAPS, you know, like I’m I just kind of as a culture I just kind of not I don’t kind of don’t look at all that nonsense, but Rick Doblin had pictures of him with communist leaders ⁓ at his booth.
ian mccall (47:26)
on his like a TV thing. He was like showing a bunch of pictures of him with a bunch of communist leaders. And I was like, you said no one see what’s happening here. This is crazy. This is all like, it really fucked up agenda to screw up our country and our world. And I get back to the Soros thing and all these other little things you got to look at. If you look at the broader picture, it ⁓ gave us hope, but it’s been a CIA run organization the whole time.
ian mccall (47:55)
The CIA has been doing this forever.
Sam Believ (47:56)
Yeah, it sucks to be a conspiracy theorist, but there are a couple conspiracy theorists that make a lot of sense. So, you know, including the whole ⁓ reason why psychedelics are illegal at the first place, it’s definitely not for safety of people, you know, if they wanted you to be healthy and safe, they would ban fast food restaurants and they would ban ⁓ alcohol, but it’s all about…
Sam Believ (48:22)
money and control which is which is okay so yeah there’s ⁓ yeah there’s definitely hidden side to it and hidden interests but let’s not let’s not wear off let’s let’s focus on ⁓ yeah let’s let’s let’s focus on what we can do something about which is what can you do to get better and and how ⁓ you got better right you
ian mccall (48:35)
Yeah, that’s the human condition, sorry.
Sam Believ (48:49)
you were also addicted when you were fighting you were taking ⁓ painkillers right and you were in a pretty bad state so talk to us about that side of your story how was it and what helped you
ian mccall (49:01)
DMT is what kicked me off of the addiction train and it said hey, it’s time to grow up Peter Pan Count Chocula, you know, it’s time to be an adult and I finally feel like an adult six years later like literally just turning 40 I finally feel like I’ve hit the adult stride in my life It started with painkillers when I was ⁓ 14 ⁓ wrestling in high school doctors
ian mccall (49:30)
of my generation were giving out pills like they were candy. So I liked them, I liked them a lot and I used them the entire time I was wrestling in high school, when I was wrestling in college, when I was fighting and it just got progressively worse and worse and worse and then I had to rehab twice, I died of a drug overdose and I…
ian mccall (49:57)
My second time out of rehab, I thought fighting was over with. I had already blown my career. I figured, okay, I gotta find my life, but my safe space is the gym. Always, it always has been. You know, I…
ian mccall (50:15)
I’ve tried. And I was in such good shape and I was beating up everybody. Like I was beating up world class people who would come by the gym and I would make them look really bad. And…
ian mccall (50:33)
Rumor kind of started to go, they’re like, ⁓ guess who’s back? Guess who’s better than ever? Guess who’s focused? Guess who’s sober? Me. And I got a fight. My coach just knew I needed money. I didn’t have any money at the time. Okay, well yeah, I need some money. So he had me fight somebody. And someone I knew I could beat. You know, it was a good tune -up fight. Well, that was the springboard. You know, I…
ian mccall (51:01)
I screwed up once after that fight because I was going to go get a tattoo. I got my chest tattoo, the big secret heart, and I used drugs, and I overdosed. So I relapsed. I was sober for so long. I relapsed, and I was like, I can’t do this anymore. I go, shit. OK, I’ve got to get my life together. So I signed. My agent called me in the hospital. He said, hey, where have you been? You’re not at the gym. I said, well, I told him where I was. I was in the hospital. I had been.
ian mccall (51:30)
I relapsed and I overdosed. ⁓ He goes, okay, well, you know, do you want me to come see you? I have some stuff to talk about. And I was like, no, what is it? He says, well, we want you to fight the number one guy in the world at a lower weight.
ian mccall (51:48)
And it’s about you finally, because I was always small from 135, ⁓ bantam weight. So I said, sure. And I signed the paperwork for my hospital bed after I was just dead like a week before that. And ⁓ you know, I was always incredibly gifted. I was able to come out of that and I was, I was the best in the world a few months later. ⁓ Even the doctor.
ian mccall (52:13)
As I was leaving, he was testing me. He’s like, you’re not the superhuman. He’s like, what is happening here? He’s like, I was ⁓ on the operating table for 24 hours ⁓ when I overdosed. My brother had to wait 24 hours to tell my parents that I was alive. And he goes, I revived you, and now a week later, letting you go, you’re in better shape than I’ve ever seen anyone in my entire life. You know, I am.
ian mccall (52:41)
Physically different mentally different than most people because I’m just a super athlete. It’s it’s my god -given gifts That I’ve squandered at that point So I was able to get off the bed go out there and win and I kept sobriety I went on a tear I beat up a bunch of people the UFC said hey if you’re gonna keep doing this we’re gonna finally make a division for you because I had already known them
ian mccall (53:06)
since I was 19, you know, again, I was a prodigy fighter, so they knew who I was, and my mentor was Chuck Waddell, so he was a former world champion. And they ⁓ gave me that offer, and my very first fight in the UFC, I went in sober, I went in incredible shape, I beat arguably the greatest fighter of all time. ⁓ I should be looked at as one of the greatest fighters of all time. Mighty Mouse.
Sam Believ (53:32)
Who is the guy you… Okay, yeah I’ve heard about him.
ian mccall (53:36)
Demetrius Jonathan, you know, ⁓ in my eyes, he’s the greatest mixed martial artist of all time. ⁓ And ⁓ that’s besides the fact of me fighting him at all. He’s fucking incredible. But the fact that I beat him once is pretty neat. That night or that when the judges read the scorecards, they gave it to him. ⁓ And if you watch that fight, I won that fight. Well.
ian mccall (54:05)
My coaches, I freaked out, ran in the back, started crying. I was like, you know, I was really upset. My coaches knew something was up. They found the judges, they found the scorecards and realized that they had read it wrong. So then Dana White came to me later and was like, ⁓ well, you, you’re, you’re getting another fight. ⁓ don’t worry. But I was so fucked up mentally. I had watched, you know, I had my ex -wife cause a lot of issues at that point of, of, of.
ian mccall (54:35)
So, I was just, a lot of drama was happening. And I went upstairs and I started using drugs with her. I started using Oxy -Contin again. Because it was just so much drama. Even though I had the second fight ⁓ coming up, I just got paid a bunch of money. I just lost it and I started using again. From the stress. I started, I just, I couldn’t, I was like, I can’t catch a fucking break.
ian mccall (55:03)
You know, I do this, I beat this guy, I get screwed. Well, you know, fast forward a few months, we fight again, he only gets better, I get worse. My life gets more dramatic. My life gets just completely torn upside down. And…
ian mccall (55:22)
I, for the rest of my career, was doing this. I’d get sober and fight and win, and get high again and lose, and do this. I was never able to keep it together. And I’m not the only person that’s this good that’s out there in a lot of sports.
ian mccall (55:36)
You think that ⁓ this greatest of all time is the greatest, there’s better out there. They just probably don’t have their shit together. Like, like I did, you know, like I, I, you know, it’s, it’s not to be like the old guy thinking I’m tough, but like, I’m still better than all these kids that are fighting in the UFC. I know that cause I trained with them, you know, but I agree that I don’t have the will or the want or the need to fight ever again or hurt anybody or have anyone hurt me. But, ⁓
ian mccall (56:04)
You know, these addictions, they lasted for so long. I’m still dealing with addicted tendencies, you know, in my life as a coach, as a person, because that’s life. You know, you just manicure them and you cage them up, you know, just enough.
ian mccall (56:22)
It’s like that crazy person that was trying to kill somebody in the cage for all those years, for 16 years, I was trying to murder somebody. That person hides right under my skin. It’s right there. Those addictions are right there. But I have control of my life. I have shit to do. I have a daughter to raise. I have, ⁓ I don’t have a girlfriend right now, but I have a…
ian mccall (56:48)
I ⁓ have responsibilities. I have a gym to take care of. I have athletes to deal with. These things that eventually, if you can get past those addictive tendencies, or put them into a better motion, go get addicted to working out, get addicted to eating healthy, get addicted to breath work and meditation. Weird research like me. Addictions can be used for good.
ian mccall (57:18)
That’s what I’ve learned. If you can really take the reins.
Sam Believ (57:22)
I just had a thought come to me. Maybe if you would have won that fight and it was completely ⁓ 100 % ⁓ approved and you got that accolades and you would have been the greatest of all time in that sport. Maybe it would not have led you to the walk of life at which you’re in right now. And I think that this is much more valuable for the world than you just winning. So I think your big win is coming.
Sam Believ (57:53)
And it’s going to be much more meaningful not just for yourself but for the world and for the veterans you’re trying to help and for the athletes you’re trying to help. So I think the universe works in mysterious ways or God or whatever you prefer to call it. So and I think it’s going to lead you to something really awesome and I’m happy to have had this conversation with you and I think ⁓ yeah, I’m excited towards to come for you and I’d like to ⁓ you know.
Sam Believ (58:23)
be of assistance if I can and ⁓ with the work I’m doing. I have many ideas that I’m gonna talk to you right after we finish with this podcast but meanwhile so for people that they want to go find you or maybe want to go support you where can they find you where can they get to you and also maybe any last recommendations.
ian mccall (58:50)
So what you said is 100 % right. My life is a cautionary tale. I’m fine. My life is great. My life is really, really incredible now. And if I would have accomplished all that stuff, I’d look at like a Conor McGregor, for instance.
ian mccall (59:09)
Kind of a douche bag, you know? Kind of not like, ⁓ not the person I wanna be. You know, I would have probably, I probably would be dead by now and I wouldn’t be able to accomplish what I’m living now. So you are 100 % right. And I’ve offered con and mushrooms a bunch of times, but we won’t do it. So yes.
Sam Believ (59:32)
Connor needs ayahuasca mushrooms. Mushrooms will not be enough. Maybe that crazy vision I had ⁓ is gonna happen to life someday. You never know.
ian mccall (59:42)
I’m trying to tiptoe my way in because we know some of the same people and they’re like, no, no, no, a bag ⁓ will go a lot longer.
Sam Believ (59:51)
Yeah.
ian mccall (59:52)
⁓ I don’t want to hang out with you then, never mind. But, so, where you can reach me, my personal Instagram is Ian McCall. You can see all the different stuff I’m doing. I mean, we didn’t even touch on the illicit psychedelic stuff that pays my bills. But that’s, you can check it out there.
ian mccall (60:15)
My life’s work is athletes journey home. So please go there, go to the website, donate. We need money. I mean, I’ve been funding this thing myself the whole time and it’s expensive. And the more we can get, the better the studies can be and the more information we can collect from these people’s brains, better stories we can tell because this information is not only going to help with traumatic brain injury.
ian mccall (60:41)
It’s going to show a drop of inflammation in the brain and the body of such great effect that we can ⁓ help fight all the neurocognitive diseases, things like cancer, whether it’s basic depression. I mean, we can touch on all of it. That’s what this information would give. So thank you for listening. Thank you for donating. Thank you for just giving me the good energy.
Sam Believ (61:08)
Thank you and thank you so much for coming. Beautiful episodes. Guys, thank you for listening to Ayahuasca Podcast and I will see you in the next episode.