In this Episode Sam Believ interviews John, military doctor. We touch upon subject of care for Veterans, PTSD, psychedelics and so much more.
LaWayra Ayahuasca retreat
Transcript
Sam Believ: You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast.com.
Hi guys. Welcome to ayahuasca podcast.com. Our guest today is John and this is a pseudonym and we are gonna call him John. Because he is a medi medical professional in the United States, and unfortunately in US psychedelics are considered unrightfully so illegal. John, welcome to the podcast.
John: Hi Sam. Thanks for having me on. Appreciate it.
Sam Believ: It’s my pleasure, John. When was we saw each other two months ago, right? Was it two months? A bit more?
John: Yeah. Yeah. It was I think right around the end of January when I was in Columbia and we had met.
Sam Believ: Nice. So how was tell us a bit about yourself.
Your story of story of your life, and how have you discovered plant medicines and your take on them.
John: Yeah. So I think my journey has been a little rocky with plant medicine. I was in the US Army for 13 years, had deployed in 2014. And after returning from deployment, I was involved in a very.
Traumatic event where my friend got in a really bad accident and lost one of his legs. And that changed my whole perspective of my career and my life. I’d been a Army physician. I’d been doing triathlons, did an Ironman had. I’d gone through a divorce with a couple of children and when that accident happened I definitely was questioning a lot of the things I’ve been doing in my life.
And especially career accomplishments and other things and setting goals. It put those all kind of in a shadow and and emotionally. Brought me into kind of a very depressed state. Ended up leaving the army and moving back to to my home state. And in the process of being in a bad relationship there, I was having a lot of what would be considered post-traumatic stress disorder symptoms.
And so I went and saw. Mental health professional that was helping me with the stress reaction that I was having regarding my life and my relationships and my work. Not being able to handle stressful situations at work either. And I went to therapy. It wasn’t really bringing much root, it was a lot of cognitive, and I already was very cognitive about medical issues and mental health issues.
And even taking SSRIs, the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors as prescribed. By my doctor and I just didn’t feel like I was gaining much benefit in my symptoms or my depression. So I moved to a different job. And while I was in that new city, I was listening to MPR and heard Michael Pollan talking about his new book how To Change Your Mind.
And that book was a very powerful book about psychedelic therapy. And looking at the benefits of psychedelics in the past when they were used before the 1960s and seventies, and then recently were they being used including plant medicine such as ayahuasca. So I got really interested. I bought his book and read it.
And then. I started exploring what options were in my city to undergo some kind of plant medicine therapy and and I was having trouble really connecting with anyone. If you’re outside that world I. It was a little bit hard for me to really find something that was professional and was safe to do so then I tried a little bit on my own and honestly wasn’t really helping.
I did see a therapist who was advising me to keep searching, giving me some guidance around it. And then finally, I started connecting with some people that had advised about Ayahuasca and that’s when I decided to go to Ecuador and try it for the first time.
And and that was my first experience.
It was an experience that was a little bit intense for me because it wasn’t just Ayahuasca, there was other. Plants that were being used such as tobacco through and combo. And I got some benefits. Definitely felt a lot of heart opening, but I knew that it wasn’t gonna be enough and I needed to integrate what I did at the Ayahuasca with other things I’m doing on a day-to-day basis.
So I. Started looking at how to integrate and really started meditating a lot more and journaling and and then also connecting with others that have experienced similar things as me, as well as continued ongoing therapy and joined the men’s group. So I was doing a lot of work after that Ayahuasca experience and, 2021.
Sam Believ: I really like that you mentioned that Ayahuasca itself is albeit a very strong tool, it is still a tool. It’s like an opening that allows you to open and connect with certain emotions and then in the end you are the one that needs to do the work. I think that’s very, that’s really great to discover that in the beginning of your journey because a lot of people have this feeling that, I ask you this magic pill and you do it once and forever.
Since then, all your problems go away. And it’s great to knowledge that it’s a, that it’s a process, right? Did you get relief from your PTSD symptoms? Did you, did quality of your life improve after you work with ayahuasca or how long did it take? Or can you tell us a little bit about your journey with plant medicines?
John: Yeah. So the Ayahuasca was just a small piece of the puzzle of unwinding the complexity of post-traumatic stress disorder. I, of course I. Having been doing therapy and getting cognitive awareness around my childhood issues, being an immigrant and having an alcoholic father and coming from a country that had war and and chaos I realized that.
That, a lot of my reactions were not only from current events, but probably were ingrained in some childhood as well as some ancestral issues that were coming up. Came up during the ayahuasca as well as some of the other therapy I was doing and. When I did the ayahuasca and felt that heart opening, the biggest thing I think that I gained from it was feeling connected to the women in my life, including my mother, and having a lot of love just flowing towards her plight and her suffering and what she did, in terms of as an immigrant mother.
To bring me the opportunity to succeed in a in the United States. And I also connected with my ex-wife’s trauma and stress that she had gone through when she was, a child as well as the things that I caused onto her and our kids. I think that was really helpful for me to really feel connected to their suffering and their pain.
And it’ll helped, also helped me connect more with my current partner. So I felt like I had a lot more connections now to the feelings. Of love and openness and acknowledging others and having more empathy towards others, especially the women in my life. But I knew that I still needed more direction and more, integration of this, like to be able to do it on a regular basis to, to keep this opening. And I knew that it might take more than just one, one, episode of Ayahuasca or even just Ayahuasca alone. And I think that’s where I got into more. Looking at a men’s group like the Mankind Project which helps bring the different archetypes into play and looking at shadows that tend to come up every day when we’re feeling stressed or we’re feeling down or or we’re having difficult situations and how these shadows of our ego can sometimes, bring more misery and suffering for ourself as well as the people around us and working through the men’s group. My therapist, I decided to go back and do ayahuasca again because I knew I, there was probably more deeper things. So the next year I went to Spain and. Did another round of ayahuasca, which gave me additional perspectives and insights as well as showed me when you elevate your expectations for ayahuasca or you become attached to an outcome, how it actually just gives you the opposite, which is what you really need.
So what you want and what you need don’t always align. I. And that second time that really gave me a lot of insight that I needed, I still had a lot more work to do. Yeah, it is,
Sam Believ: it is a long process. The healing. Yeah.
John: And and it took me into looking at other guided therapies out there including MDMA and LSD as well as psilocybin and what’s being done research wise around those and how that can help.
People with depression with PTSD and anxiety. And so I started doing a lot more research into that area and seeking advice of people that are practicing providing guided therapy and seeing what their, what the outcomes they’ve been seeing. And I started getting really interested. In that because I think the evolution of mental health treatment is gonna involve psychedelic assisted therapy.
There’s FDA studies currently that are in phase three and phase four. Now for MDMA ketamine is already a legal therapy that’s being used. And then there’s. Definitely looking at psilocybin also as a potential therapy aid for addiction and depression, I believe that these plants that have been around for, a very long time, thousands of years have a significant role in helping humans, gain control of the negative mind the spiraling emotions around, the stress or trauma they’ve.
They’ve had in their life as well as ancestral trauma. That’s interwind in the neural networks of our brains, which obviously helped us survive in one way, but also is hindering our ability to become more in line and evolve. And that’s what led me to colo, to you. Obviously that’s how we ended up in Columbia, like seeking.
More, more insight and more enlightenment into this whole process.
Sam Believ: Yeah, definitely. We’re living in exciting times, the psychedelic renaissance and the way that, plant medicines are slowly coming back into our life. Traditionally every culture had some kind of psychedelic they were working with, and mostly in the shamanic sense and.
In the sense of, getting answers and directions, but in in, for example, ayahuasca, traditionally, everyone would like everyone in the tribe would drink it here or there sometimes regularly. And I guess that kept people sane and allowed the harmony.
To carry on, in the society. And we don’t have that now, like lack of spirituality. We’re, as they say, we are intellectual giants and we are spiritual dwarfs and like spirituality obviously intertwines with mental health. It seems to, somebody also said, and I don’t know, maybe you know the author of this quote, it’s.
Psychedelics are for the mind, what telescope was for astronomy or something like that. Some, something along those lines. And I do definitely believe in that. It seems to somehow show you the inner works of your mind. This is fascinating. So your last experience with us at our retreat, can this, if you still remember what what the outcome of it was, could you share it to the audience?
John: Yeah. So my experience initially was I wasn’t had been planning to do Ayahuasca that weekend. I was there to support some friends, but you convinced me to to go through it. That I had this reason I was there and, and I knew there was a lot more I was hanging onto. I I knew that that my subconscious was, there was still some blockages in my subconscious that were affecting me from letting go of a lot of, the stress and trauma from my life and also some of the shame I had around some of the behaviors I’ve also exhibited towards others. And my first night there was a huge purge that happened for me both physically and emotionally and mentally. I know that it was a very powerful night for me.
’cause I think I purged more than I’ve ever purged. I’ve had always had difficulty especially with physical purge and confronting physical pain. I would try to distract myself in the past or hang on really tight. And at this time around I was able to actually really let go. That felt really good.
I felt it really opened me up and allowed me to really become more present with, the moment and not be so in my head around controlling the process or seeking things from the process, but rather being just open to the process.
Sam Believ: Yeah, that’s that’s a very good, result for the first night be able to release.
How, what how did your second night go?
John: My second night was almost an extension of the first night in the, and the fact that it was just very peaceful. Like it was like the second day of this. Aspect of purging, letting go, being open, and then just observing and it was almost a very peaceful, very blissful night.
Where the first part I was just very aware of everything going on but very present and, and just accepting it as it was. And and when my ego or shadow would come out trying to convince me to do more ayahuasca, when it’s being offered, I resisted it and luckily, by resisting it and believing that, Hey, I’ve had what I needed the night before.
I don’t need to try to go deeper. I feel like very feeling at peace with what I got. Then it became a very, blissful experience after that, as soon as I rejected taking a second dose and just drank some water I started feeling the effects of the medicine in a very beautiful way. Became a very blissful, very colorful and just peaceful experience of lights and colors and patterns and, and it just kinda led me to a place of just like real peace, like where I felt a lot of peace in my life at that moment. Almost like. Where I’d want to be on a regular basis every day. So it really showed me like what it feels like when your mind just finally lets go of expectations and cravings and aversions and just accepts what it, what is you just find like joy and love and presence in every moment.
And and that was beautiful. I felt like really complete from the second night. Yeah,
Sam Believ: that’s a, it’s a great outcome, to be able to switch off the chatter in your head and just feel being alive and being in the moment. John you are a veteran and you’re also a med medical professional, and that sorta both of those.
Both of those career paths, they’re both very traumatic and very painful, and there’s a lot of doctors that are struggling. There’s a lot of veterans that are struggling, as a doctor. What obviously we know your opinion on psychedelic is positive, but as a doctor you have access to both sides of the picture.
What is your take on. Illegality of plant medicines and the fact that, and what do you think about conventional medicines in helping with problems like PTSD and what do you think is stopping us as a society from, calling medicines and not calling them drugs?
John: Yeah, that’s a really important question. In my opinion, in my view, is. A lot of what’s going on around why there’s resistance to psychedelic therapy is more of a financial, as well as ramifications of what happens when people take psych psychedelics in their view, towards their governments or corporations the military.
If people’s hearts are being open and they’re finding a lot more. Insight into being peaceful and loving and connecting and learning to remove, their stress from causing misery and trauma on others. That what would that mean for society and as a whole? I think the resistance probably stems from that because I think it really changes people’s minds and perspectives of a lot of things, including western medicine.
I feel like my view of Western medicine has significantly changed since. I’ve experienced this everything from the trauma I experienced to witnessing how western medicine has resulted in an opiate epidemic where people are resist their emotional, mental, and physical pain now by looking for drugs such as Fentanyl or Oxycontin to relieve their suffering when they really.
Have it within them to really do the work to relieve their own suffering. And if we’re always looking for an external way to re, to remove our pain we’re gonna always be being misled. And unfortunately, there’s industries out there completely built around that idea that somehow they have the answer.
To your pain and that they can help you overcome your pain, when in reality it’s it’s within you to do that. And I think plant medicines don’t actually do anything to relieve pain. But what they do is they give you insight into the roadmap that you need to remove whatever those stressors or emotions or thoughts that are causing you misery and pain.
Sam Believ: Interest, interestingly enough,
John: yeah.
Sam Believ: In, in my opinion, or from my own observation when I first started with Ayahuasca, it actually does have that aspect. But basically what it does, it helps you get, helps you deal with the pain, and then as soon, immediately shows you what’s the cause of the pain.
So it’s not just like blindly taking away the pain and like allowing you to, once, go out back, go back into the world and get more pain. So it’s, it kinda shows you like, don’t you know what to do and what not to do and how to actually get out of the, the cycle that causes you to be in that state as opposed to, let’s say, antidepressants or anti-anxiety medication.
It is just. You if you stop taking them, there is no more healing with Ayahuasca. You can take it once and have healing for years because of the information you receive and the understanding you receive.
John: Yeah, exactly. I think like most of the medications that get marketed for mental health as well as pain are more of band-aids and they’re not even very good band-aids.
People get some relief, they feel a little bit better and then they get stuck on these medications, which, results in billions of dollars in the pockets of big corporations. And the reality is, most of those patients aren’t actually. Getting to the root of what’s the cause of their emotional, mental, or physical pain and learning, how to get to the root, how to remove that from the equation so that it doesn’t keep them in that state.
Because there’s, there is no pain. That, that is, is indefinite. One of the concepts of the Pasana meditation is Anisha coming from the Buddhist times which is, basically everything is changing. It’s, there’s impermanence to everything, every sensation you feel and that.
Attaching to any one sensation, whether it’s good or bad, is just gonna result in misery and suffering and pain. And if you can get to that area where you start to see where it’s coming from and you address it by not attaching to it, you’ll notice that the intensity of that pain of the emotions will decrease and decrease, and you’ll have less suffering around it.
And Ayahuasca and some of these other psychedelics out there are like one person had told me about one way to look at psychedelics is if you’re in an in a high rise, and I. You’re at, you’re living on the first floor and you don’t get much of a view of the whole city. And your neighbor who lives on at the penthouse invites you up and you go up to the penthouse and you see the view, the 360 view of around your whole city, and you say to yourself, wow, this is like an amazing view. I thought it was just, all there was a road and a few shops I can see from my window and now I see that there’s this huge big city with all these other buildings and rivers and parks and maybe I need to, venture. Out more and go and see more of my city.
And in a way that’s what these things do. They give you the elevator to go up to that penthouse or to climb that tree to be able to see where else can you go in your life? What else can you do? And where some of the blockages are that keep you from going there. And and gives you a nice roadmap.
And the roadmap is never 100% complete after one. One session, although that’s enough for some people to really like, have enough insight that it changes their whole life, especially with addiction medicine. One psychedelics have been used for addiction or depression.
I. Even just one, one episode of a session one, one therapy session with ayahuasca is enough to pull you outta that state of addiction or depression. But if you want more enlightenment and if you want to get to that next level where things just become less causes for misery those negative thoughts that come up not attaching to them, then I think you have to keep practicing both, a daily practice. As well as, obviously regular insights that you have to have on how to get to the next level. So there’s always another level. You’re never 100% like gonna wake up one day and be all in a state of bliss and love forever.
It takes multiple. Sessions as well as the daily work that you do to get you there, and hopefully to get you to your end of your life where you found acceptance with the Im impermanence of your own life. So that you’re not attached to it and your spirit or your if you’re spiritual and you believe in your spirit or your afterlife or if you’re more religious inclined and you believe in heaven and.
That’s how you get there. You get there through the, this process, the daily process as well as these insights you get into what it takes to get to that next level.
Sam Believ: Yeah, definitely. It is a process and I think that if life would be a game, and if you think that, one moment you realize, you won the game.
What happens when you win the game? You switch off the computer and you stop playing. It’s kinda like we need the challenge, we need the growth, we need the movement to feel alive and to be alive, and we need bad to understand good. And we need good to understand bad. So it’s kinda it’s not about just coming to the bliss and never leaving it.
I think it would be pretty boring. And I like, I really liked your analogy with, with the building, the analogy that I like to use also, once again, I don’t remember the source of it, but if you think of spirituality and mindfulness as a mountain and the, this nirvana place where people want to go is the top of the mountain, I.
What happens is you can take, the mountain is big and there’s many different routes you can take. One of them is yoga and others is meditation. Others is just, being in nature and all sorts of mindfulness and spiritual practices. Let’s imagine there’s hundreds of routes, and in that analogy, ayahuasca is like a helicopter, which takes you straight to the top.
And even though there, but there is, there’s, there, there’s only one condition that takes you there for a short amount of time, couple hours, and then it takes you back. But it doesn’t bring you all the way back to the, first base. It brings you to like second base. So it’s easier for you to go back to the top and the idea is that you already know what it is you’re heading, you already know what it is there on top.
So it, it kinda keeps you motivated and gives you faith in what? In that there is something. Start to achieve in that spiritual journey. So that’s how I see the ayahuasca versus other modalities. And then you get the, you can take other routes to, to go back to the top, slowly, gradually.
Because I also believe that it’s not that you just do ayahuasca every day for the rest of your life, but the idea is that you do it occasionally, and you do the work in the in between and integrate and, find the holistic approach you as a doctor, right? What do you think about the whole notion of, doctors not being able to have feelings?
When a doctor has depression or PTSD, they have to hide in the shadows and even conventional medicines, like they, they can’t just openly admit that they are. In a bad place mentally because then they lose their job. But then as human beings, we all understand that doctors, suffered the most, especially like after what happened during the COVID epidemic.
What do you think about that?
John: Yeah, it’s interesting, there’s this hippocratic approach that a lot of healthcare institutions. Take towards mental health in physicians and especially stress and burnout. A lot of organizations are investing in physician burnout by providing more services by using surveys and other learning techniques to help physicians recognize burnout, stress, sleep other things that are happening in their life and they want you to be more aware and they’re asking surveys on how your burnout level is. I know in the military they were doing more of this. And with the change in the way they’re training physicians with limited work hours and sleep issues and so on, a lot of training is being put into that now.
That’s what visibly they’re looking like they’re providing things for physicians. Now, here’s the problem is if physicians admit they are burnt out and they’re feeling the effects of that emotionally or mentally, I. Then they’re put in this special category basically of they could be a danger to the patients if they’re having mental health issues, so we need to put them on.
Special status, whether in their credentialing at the hospitals or with their licensing. And some of that can be extreme where thing, they’re basically, put in a suspended state where they can’t practice medicine and then they have to attain certain amount of therapy and. They have to go through a bunch of steps to demonstrate that, that they’re capable of doing the work.
And and a lot of times that blacklists them with medical organizations, malpractice insurers, licensing boards, and then they have very, and then basically they had. Become, outlawed in the whole practicing medicine. By coming and admitting you know, that they’re having some struggles.
And a lot of organizations then won’t hire them. And they feel afraid to hire them because they feel they’re not capable of handling the stress of being a physician. And so what happens is then it drives a lot of these physicians, and I’ve witnessed it with colleagues to seek care without professional help.
And a lot of times a lot of physicians are drinking alcohol. At home at night on a regular basis or on weekends to numb themself against the stress and pain. And as we know of all the medicines out there, alcohol is probably the worst to deal with pain because it just brings you into a numb state and will lead you to actions.
That, of course, can be very regrettable, like physicians driving drunk or. Getting angry at their families, their wives, or their children or their husbands or and becoming more reactive, a work towards their colleagues. So in a way that’s the indirect effect of of suppressing. These feelings and emotions is that, they end up engaging in very high risk behaviors.
Even some physicians to the extent of using some of the medications in the hospital that are meant for patients. Illegally and hospitals have come down really hard on that. In the past, physicians would administer, opiates and other controlled substances to themself or would prescribe to their colleagues and anxiolytics.
Now that we have more computerized systems, that’s not as easy for physicians to do. So clearly a lot of physicians are seeking these things outside of the healthcare system. And I, this is all speculation and some observations I’ve had in the past. And it happens also in the military being a veteran watching a lot of officers and high ranking enlisted military members.
Also engage in high risk behaviors when they’re deployed and when they’re at home. Because that’s also another profession where any mental health. Or stress related disorder is brought to the attention of leadership typically, that service member although the military encourages service members to seek help will then blacklist that member and affects that member’s, ability to promote or get positions they’re seeking in the military.
And then eventually. As we’ve seen with a lot of veterans it leads to suicide and significant drug addiction and homelessness. So this is a huge problem. It’s a huge problem that is not really being addressed properly because I think they’re just hippocratic, like providing one solution, but at the same time.
Punishing if physicians and service members come out and actively seek help,
Sam Believ: yeah. This is very unfair the way they kinda say come, we help you, but then, we punish you. And obviously that will basically lead. The veterans and medical professionals to just look for help outside of the, outside of the legal realm.
John, you mentioned to me that after the retreat that you were. So passionate about planned medicines and this healing modalities that you were kinda exploring. The opportu, the ability to maybe start something of your own or work with it yourself. Can you share with us what are you thinking about?
What ideas you have and that’s cool.
John: So there’s, because of the process right now for legalizing plant medicines, there is now lines of training being created for physicians and mental health providers to become guides that can do assisted therapy. And I think that’s the first step for me as as a physician is to see, to explore what are those pro training opportunities and what places.
In the country or in the world? Is it would it, would I be protected as a physician legally from any consequences? I don’t, you have to understand is I don’t believe psychedelics should be just legal for everyone. I’m not, and I’m not at all advocating for people to go out and experiment with psychedelics on their own.
These are, these can be, that can be a very dangerous thing to use psychedelics with no experience person supervising. That is one of the reasons psychedelics got such a bad reputation in the 1960s and seventies is because when people started using psychedelics without supervision. And mixing them with other drugs and alcohol imparting.
There were a lot of people experiencing some of the negative side effects of psychedelics, which is not what I’m advocating for at all. When I’m advocating is that psychedelics with proper supervision. Guides in the right set and setting be allowed to be a type of therapy for people struggling with mental health, addictions stress, PTSD, and and et cetera.
I think there’s a huge role for them. I think the benefits are enormous better than anything that’s ever been created by pharmaceutical industry. Better than any psychological therapy alone. When they’re used in the proper setting, setting by professionals that are trained. Like we mentioned before, you might only need one session ever to get out of whatever place you’re at in terms of your mental health.
So I think, with proper supervision, I. I, I would want that kind of training to be able to provide it to patients and and that’s something I’m looking forward to. And hopefully more universities will start providing certification processes that allow physicians like myself to, to participate in providing that kind of therapy.
Sam Believ: What do you think about traditional use of psychedelics and ceremonial setting with indigenous practitioners?
John: Yeah. Again, I think like anything out there, I think indigenous practitioners a lot of times have learned the practice through, elders that are that have gone and.
Perform these ceremonies and have thousands of year, hundreds to thousands of years of practice that have refined the process to the small details of it that provides a safe environment. For people. And I think I’m completely for that. But we have to be careful also because a lot of people are claiming to be shamans and indigenous practitioners and they’re not.
And it’s becoming a tourism thing, especially in Costa Rica and elsewhere in Central America. And we have to be careful who we label as. A Shama or indigenous practitioner versus who’s doing it, for financial gain and tourism. So we, I wouldn’t recommend that people just, fly anywhere and do this, that they research who their practitioners are, what their experience is.
Where they come from and what techniques they’re using and ask some questions around that before committing to something like that because again, it is life altering and if you end up having a really bad experience, it might actually take you in the wrong direction in your life.
Sam Believ: Yeah, definitely. I agree with that. I, for those of you listening who maybe not, are not gonna end up at our retreat, which is, Laira retreat. If you go somewhere and you’re looking for shamanic or traditional use of psychedelics, make sure you ask those questions.
Question number one. Is whether the shaman is coming from a lineage, meaning, his his ancestors are their shamans because this is a very high indicator that he, he is because, like in, in their knowledge because they learn from their parents and they start from childhood.
This is where they. This is where this gives them the opportunity to absorb the most information. Then always ask whether did the shaman cooks and grows his own medicine? Because the most important part is the purity of the medicine. And for in case of ayahuasca has to be only two ingredients because if you start mixing in mixing with other stuff that’s already questionable.
And. Not recommended, at least. There are some dangerous additives, but I know there are some more harmless ones. But those are important things. And also if you’re looking at the retreat, look into them and I, we should respect the traditional approach and of course follow there.
Their tradition, but it does not hurt to combine it with a bit of a Western approach and add some integration or maybe word circles or, written integration like we do at our retreat because using the medicine to open those doors, but then using other approaches to actually.
Integrate better. So those would be my own tips for those looking for a proper traumatic thing. Because yeah, in my experience I’ve I’ve done medicine in a lot of, in a lot of places in a traumatic setting. And so far what I’ve learned is that out of 10 people that say they are a shaman, one of them will be.
A real shaman. And if somebody is indigenous, it doesn’t mean they are a shaman. They might be as clueless or maybe even more clueless that than a somebody who is not indigenous. So it is important that you get good recommendations for the place and you get, you know who you’re drinking with because as John said, there’s a very high.
There’s a very high risk, and if you do it in the wrong setin setting, that might, if you feel uncomfortable, it might actually make you feel worse than before. So setin setting is another thing. Make sure that the place you’re going to is comfortable. It is, pretty and calm and there, there are no distractions.
Not, not like a basement next to the highway sort of situation. So yeah, that those would be my recommendations. John do you have any, anything to add before we finish this episode?
John: No. I just have to say, yeah, I I found that, what you were saying is really important in terms of doing the research and and making sure that you don’t just force yourself to do it.
There’s a, like a calling that happens around when you’ll be ready to do something like this. So don’t feel tempted to do it just because other people are doing it or. Or you just wanna try something. This is more about a healing process and knowing where you are in that process and what phase of that process you are called to do this.
And having the groundwork also laid out for the integration piece, knowing, how you’re gonna integrate what you get from the process, so it doesn’t go to waste, I think that’s really important. Definitely to get across. Definitely. Yeah.
Okay. Yeah, I think that’s all I had extra to say.
Sam Believ: Thank you. Those are really wise words and John, I’m I’m sorry that today we had to do it audio only. I had to call you John, because you’re not John. And the ridiculousness of the fact that this plant medicine here that’s been a medicine for 4,000 years is unfortunately considered a drug in your country and, not respected.
And, it does not have a place in our society, which it should have. But we still need to talk about it. Still get information out there. So thank you for coming. To the podcast. Thank you for sharing your your wisdom because as a veteran and as a medical practitioner, you have a different perspective on things, and it’s it’s been really great talking to you, John.
John: Thank you, Sam. I really appreciate what you’re doing and and hopefully more people become open to. And the benefits they have for us.
Sam Believ: Thank you, John. Guys, thank you for listening. Once again this was ayahuasca podcast.com and if you’re interested in participating in our retreat you can find us@lara.com, L-A-W-A-Y-R a.com.
And yes. Thank you for listening, and I’ll see you soon.