In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with Pauli Kulikowska, a holistic therapist and founder of the Healing Institute. Pauli brings over 15 years of experience in therapeutic work, integrating clinical psychology, yoga, and energy modalities. She holds a master’s degree in clinical psychology, is a certified yoga teacher, and specializes in merging Eastern, Western, and Indigenous healing approaches.
Topics Discussed:
Pauli’s journey from depression to healing with ayahuasca and yoga (01:01–05:18)
Healing her brain tumor through plant medicine and lifestyle changes (05:19–08:25)
The integration process: yoga, meditation, and nervous system regulation (07:25–09:44)
Addressing cultural appropriation in plant medicine facilitation (10:15–11:40)
The role of ethics and preparation in healing practices (19:08–20:47)
Integrating Eastern, Western, and Indigenous knowledge in the Healing Institute (21:27–22:24)
Practical integration methods, including pranayama breathwork (33:27–35:52)
Traditional Tantra and its connections to shamanic practices (55:29–56:27)
If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats, go to http://www.lawayra.com.
Guest Information: Find more about Pauli and her work at http://www.healinginstitute.eu.
Transcript
Sam Believ (00:01)
Hi guys and welcome to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always we do the whole assembly of today have a conversation with Pauli Kulikovska. She is a holistic therapist and the founder of the Healing Institute with over 15 years of experience in therapeutic work. She holds a master’s degree in clinical psychology and is a certified yoga teacher having completed 600 hours accredited by Yoga Alliance and 200 hours of Kundalini training.
Sam Believ (00:28)
Her practice integrates Eastern and Western knowledge, utilizing a variety of tools such as yoga, psychology and energy work to facilitate inner awakening and personal development. Pauli, welcome to the show.
Pauli Kulikowska (00:43)
Hi Sam, thank you for inviting me. It’s lovely to be here.
Sam Believ (00:48)
Paulie, did your life put you on this path of working with healing, working with plant medicines? Can you tell us your story?
Pauli Kulikowska (01:01)
can share it. It’s a little bit long, so long story short. ⁓ I was very depressed when I was a teenager and ⁓ I seeked help. went to psychotherapy ⁓ and ⁓ I was like it took one year and it wasn’t giving any effects. I was just getting more and more depressed. It was getting worse and worse. ⁓ And one day I had a dream ⁓ and ⁓ it was very different from all the dreams I had before. It was very vivid.
Pauli Kulikowska (01:31)
and ⁓ I was in a jungle and I was surrounded by 12 indigenous women who were half naked. I don’t know if it’s relevant, but maybe it is. They were putting smoke on me ⁓ with feathers. Now I understand the context, but back then, you I was 18, 19, you know, you can imagine like how weird it was. And I woke up with the words Pura Sá. ⁓ Like I heard Pura Sá, you know, I didn’t speak Spanish at the time, which was…
Pauli Kulikowska (02:00)
also very, ⁓ I could say, weird for me. So I googled what Pura Se means and I found that it ⁓ means cleanse yourself. So I like, I didn’t understand ⁓ why ⁓ it happened. But around two weeks later, a friend of mine came to me and he said that he has ⁓ brought something, access to something that works supposedly better than five years of psychotherapy. ⁓ And that is ayahuasca.
Pauli Kulikowska (02:29)
And ⁓ I was never into drugs. That’s very important part. I was never into exploring any kind of these things. But when I heard it, I was like, I didn’t know what it was. I was like, I know this is something that is this is it, you know. So I cooked it, ⁓ which ⁓ was, you know, ⁓ 15, 16, 16 years ago, 16 years ago, I cooked ayahuasca. And my first ayahuasca experience was actually with me cooking medicine, which now
Pauli Kulikowska (02:58)
I wouldn’t ever recommend doing this for anyone, to be clear, you know, but this is how my path unfolded and this is how this experience went. ⁓ And yeah, it opened up beautiful, beautiful paths. Then I went to Colombia. I studied with Shaman from Putumayo, which ⁓ was also very strong experience for me. I stayed with him ⁓ on the ETA ⁓ and ⁓ after that I came back
Pauli Kulikowska (03:28)
to Poland, because this is where I come from originally. I don’t live there anymore. ⁓ I met and it came out that I was sick. It came out after my trip to Colombia, after my diet, it came out that I was sick. ⁓ My period stopped for 10 months. ⁓ I didn’t know what was happening. I was gaining a lot of weight. was sick. was just sick, you know. And so we did ⁓
Pauli Kulikowska (03:56)
a very very thorough medical ⁓ survey what was wrong with me you know I had all these medical checkups and it came out that I had a brain tumour ⁓ in my pituitary gland which is not it wasn’t malicious but it was ⁓ it demanded surgery but at the time in Poland I would have to wait like around one year for a surgery and in Colombia I already met people who
Pauli Kulikowska (04:23)
thanks to the medicine work and plant medicine has ⁓ gone out of. I saw stories of ⁓ cancer healings and ⁓ people who had trouble with walking, who were walking again. So I figured I have one a year. So either ⁓ there is something I can do myself ⁓ with the tools that I have and learning about the body and about the stuff. ⁓
Pauli Kulikowska (04:50)
And this is how it all started. And after one year, I was clear. I didn’t have a tumour. My period came back. ⁓ It was a big journey, but it was just the beginning of ⁓ something more because later on I did a yoga training and became a teacher and also started to teach people these modalities, ⁓ these healing modalities that beautifully complement each other.
Pauli Kulikowska (05:18)
And this is my story.
Sam Believ (05:19)
Interesting. So as you were waiting for your surgery, you did what I assume ayahuasca. What else did you do? And then it kind of went away. Can you tell us?
Pauli Kulikowska (05:31)
Yes, ⁓ started, I basically completely changed my lifestyle ⁓ from what I had before. I mean, it wasn’t tragic, but ⁓ still, you know, I changed my diet completely. ⁓ I started to do cleanses, dietas, like dietas, know, ⁓ like the diet I had in Colombia, but different ones like fasting, fasting, a lot of meditation, a lot of medicine.
Pauli Kulikowska (05:58)
⁓ and yoga ⁓ was a big, big, big, big thing because ⁓ one of the issues with the higher centers in the brain ⁓ is that there was like over-stimulation of the energy, there was too much energy in my brain, so my body wasn’t adapting fast enough, so I needed to introduce, I understand it from the perspective of time, but this is what I felt, my nervous system needed to ⁓ adapt bodywork.
Pauli Kulikowska (06:27)
in order to integrate the work that I did in Colombia before Colombia and then after Colombia as well. So this is how it went. It was a combination of various things, a lot of self-inquiry, healing my relationship with my femininity because this was also related to this. ⁓ yes, in a shortcut. It was many years ago, but this is how it went.
Sam Believ (06:58)
So I mean, I can imagine that the story like this makes you a big believer in the power of plant medicines and all those modalities. And this is how you stepped on this path to from healing yourself to now healing others. So you talk about too much information as in, is it kind of integration process that
Sam Believ (07:25)
you went through with yoga or what is what is it can you talk to us
Pauli Kulikowska (07:28)
Yes, ⁓ it’s the integration on the level of nervous system, ⁓ also cellular level, because medicine gives us access to all these dimensions and ⁓ we see information. I saw a lot of info about my past lives and stuff like this, why ⁓ I’m here, why did I meet medicine this early in my life, why the first medicine I had to cook.
Pauli Kulikowska (07:56)
why it happened like this. Everything was ⁓ revealed at that time to me. ⁓ I didn’t believe in it because I think there was a part of me that didn’t fully believe that a person like a woman from Eastern Europe could ⁓ actually be called to do this work as well ⁓ because I was putting shamans and particularly male figures ⁓ on the very high pedestal in the midst of this work.
Pauli Kulikowska (08:25)
And medicine kind of explained that there is needed ⁓ more balance, more feminine approach, more gentle approach with ⁓ more gentle medicine work, know, with proper preparation to do it, ⁓ adapting the body first, with ⁓ solving the emotional issues, kind of the first layer before we even introduce the medicine, you know, to do the work ⁓ that she can do. ⁓
Pauli Kulikowska (08:57)
So yes, yoga, definitely meditation. ⁓ But yoga I see as part of meditation practice is ⁓ needed ⁓ because also I met in my history with medicine, you know, I went through various communities and met a lot of people and I met people who live from ceremony to ceremony and nothing changes in their life. They just introduced medicine and you know, they ⁓ say they’re
Pauli Kulikowska (09:22)
they’re sitting in the light and basically they’re still addicted to alcohol, know, ⁓ their relationships are shit, sorry for saying that, but you know, it’s like nothing is changing, communication is not changing, their relationship with themselves is not changing. So, ⁓ so ayahuasca showed me in a very, on a very deep level how important it is to do the homework.
Pauli Kulikowska (09:44)
to do what she said, know, when she says there is a guidance, you have to do the homework in your daily life, build your practice, build your discipline and actually, you know, be what you are in the means also of what you preach you are, you know what I mean? It’s like be integral ⁓ in this. So yeah, this is how it was. ⁓ And yeah, that’s ⁓ like, I don’t know if this is a moment, but I wanted maybe to add. ⁓
Pauli Kulikowska (10:15)
I had a huge problem internally with facilitating medicine ⁓ because of the fact that ⁓ I understand the context where it is coming from, that this knowledge, this ⁓ sacred relationship with earth, with plants ⁓ was carried by people, by indigenous people. They paid a tremendous price for it and now we white people come in there and we are claiming this is something that we can do.
Pauli Kulikowska (10:44)
and ⁓ I had a huge conflict with that. ⁓ But medicine also showed me that…
Pauli Kulikowska (10:53)
It’s.
Pauli Kulikowska (11:40)
So my internet is not stable still. Okay, so. ⁓
Sam Believ (11:45)
Okay, we’ll cut this part out. Don’t worry, I’ll just make some notes. It was around minute 11.
Pauli Kulikowska (11:51)
Okay. Okay. Okay, perfect.
Sam Believ (11:57)
But I’ll just start with answering some of the things you’re saying. So I’ve met many people like this myself where they come to ceremony and another ceremony and another ceremony and they seem to never change. And it’s a trap for all of us. I’ve been there myself as well. What I do like about AWS is that sometimes they can also show you not to do it. And I’ve had experiences where once I came to ceremony too soon and it was like,
Sam Believ (12:27)
Why you back so soon? I gave you homework and then they kind of punished me a little bit. So that’s the beauty of this medicine is kind of self-governing and You mentioned feminine. I’ve had some great experiences with my mes which are female shamans here in Colombia and Yeah, some of my very profound experiences were with female shamans. So I think there’s there’s beauty in that actually I’ve been in the ceremony once
Pauli Kulikowska (12:31)
Yeah.
Sam Believ (12:54)
Were both the husband and the wife they were both shamans so maima and a taita and there was like one it was a ceremony were at one of my biggest sort of breakthroughs and ⁓ has to do with healing. So i’ll share it later and maybe you can give me your opinion but yeah, ⁓ there’s definitely space for I don’t think medicine really cares about gender that much. It’s ⁓
Sam Believ (13:21)
If you have it, then also I’m also Eastern European. So it’s also strange for me. There’s going to be this imposter syndrome always like why am I here in Colombia running arguably one of the biggest Thai Oscar treats in Colombia when I’m not even Colombian, but it’s like I’ve been called to it and somehow synchronistically ended up here. once again, I think medicine also doesn’t care where you’re from. There’s more than that. So when you describe, you know, healing work and
Sam Believ (13:51)
Obviously you have your approach to it. What do you think happened to you? When you healed your your tumor, what is the healing process? How does? Mental heal physical like what is your what is your understanding? Obviously have a perspective from both Eastern tradition the Amazonian tradition. How does one heal physically?
Pauli Kulikowska (14:14)
⁓ I think it all comes up to really integrating that ⁓ the psychological healing doesn’t come before spiritual healing because we’re not psychological beings, we’re spiritual beings who have psychological experience. So this was the biggest shift ⁓ in my experience, you know, and this ⁓ has kind of ⁓ gave me this access to this power that we all have. It’s like we all have connection with the source energy.
Pauli Kulikowska (14:44)
And that’s a fact, you know, and if we have connection to the source creative energy, we can create this version of reality within our system first, because this is the first mastering that we need to do. We need first to master our own personal system, learn to hold ourselves in space. ⁓ And this is one thing. And the other thing I feel like it was, it was, I, it was a grace. ⁓ It was divine grace.
Pauli Kulikowska (15:11)
⁓ I really believe I was healed. ⁓ It’s not something that I, Paulina, did. It’s not something that I, Paulina, did. This is not Paulina’s work. This is ⁓ higher powers work that Paulina has allowed ⁓ to work through her in order to ⁓ kind of heal and to recalibrate and change, actually really change ⁓ and ⁓ accept the work that… ⁓
Pauli Kulikowska (15:38)
which I am here to do. I don’t want to talk about myself in the third person, but this is how it is right now and this is how it’s growing more even in my life because the healing from my perspective never ends. It’s like an awakening gets more more sublime and we are getting to these new levels of awareness. ⁓ And as we gain awareness and consciousness within certain dimensions of our existence, we are able to actually be.
Pauli Kulikowska (16:07)
be that, be that, realize ourselves as that. ⁓ And now, for example, my path has led me to Tantra and through Tantra I am exploring, you know, a complete, I want to mention traditional Tantra, not the Western Tantra where, you know, it’s sexualized, but the traditional Tantra with, you know, ⁓ big practice, with energy forms, ⁓ with devatas, it’s called devatas. And, you know, we need to kind of know
Pauli Kulikowska (16:36)
place in all this. ⁓ I love the Lakota approach to this. It’s like the humans are the most ⁓ and should be the most humble of divine creations because we were created the last and ⁓ this is what healed me, know, ⁓ in a way also this humility, you know, realizing that this is not me doing this work, this is divine’s work.
Pauli Kulikowska (17:05)
so this is how I would explain it. But it’s multi-dimensional, it took a lot of time really, it wasn’t just one year. After one year I didn’t have tumor but I still had issues, ⁓ there were still issues to deal with, you know, it’s not like, you know, wow now after one year you can do this, no, it took many many years, you know, I’m doing this 15 years already and I’m saying that it’s still ongoing work, it’s never-ending work ⁓ and yes so this is how it goes. ⁓
Sam Believ (17:34)
So obviously you have a healing institute, right? Where you, I assume teach people how to heal. But also you described that the healing is a mostly first person project. Like you have to heal yourself. So how does, what is ⁓ the job of healer in that case? And what is the job of plant medicines in that case? Like how do, I’m trying to like create a succinct picture of how, like,
Sam Believ (18:03)
Let’s say somebody who’s listening to this episode and they’re sick physically. Walk them through how to not be sick anymore.
Pauli Kulikowska (18:14)
Wow, that’s a task I wouldn’t even dare to take, because there is no one solution for one person. And this is also one of the approaches that we have in the Healing Institute. The Healing Institute is a space which aims to connect various modalities and techniques and integrate the Western with the Eastern or the Indigenous as well, because we’re creating a space or a table where everyone can sit.
Pauli Kulikowska (18:40)
and where everyone’s voice can be heard and where everyone can be heard, you know, for who they are with the knowledge, with the wisdom they’re carrying, ⁓ even if it’s not realized yet, you know, because people who come, whom I work with, those are beautiful beings who have tremendous potential and they have a voice, healing voice as well. ⁓ So ⁓ the aim of, as I said, the aim of Healing Institute is to create a safe space for self first, self growth.
Pauli Kulikowska (19:08)
We are teaching tools, we are teaching ethics. This is very important. The first thing, the first thing and ⁓ it doesn’t matter really which modality, which healing modality, whether it’s yoga, tantra, whether it’s ⁓ some other, know, like reiki or plant medicine. Like it’s very important to have this core of ethical contact because it’s very easy to get lost ⁓ from my perspective, especially when you start to do this. ⁓
Pauli Kulikowska (19:37)
not completely material work, you know what I mean? It’s not like it’s something that is tangible in the means of you’re making a table. You’re not making a table. You’re working with a human being, with an energy system, with a human being, with a psyche, with a human being, spirit, with another person. So it’s a huge responsibility and we need to kind of learn to kind of train our mind, train our mind to find the correct alignment. So this is what we’re teaching. We’re teaching energy hygiene, we’re teaching
Pauli Kulikowska (20:07)
tools, we’re teaching ⁓ ethics and ⁓ now we’re aiming to, this is the actually next year goal, we’re aiming to connect with ⁓ the plant medicine retreats. We already have contacts but we want to make projects connecting, know, organizing ⁓ retreats ⁓ for people ⁓ who want to go to the Amazon or to indigenous communities, whether it is in America, South America or
Pauli Kulikowska (20:35)
in India as well, because there is a tremendous wisdom here as well. ⁓ And ⁓ this is what we want to do. We want to connect ⁓ everything ⁓ into this beautiful… ⁓ So that’s why we’re doing it, because there is no one way for one person. ⁓ Everyone will need something else, a little bit different approach.
Sam Believ (20:47)
Mm-hmm.
Pauli Kulikowska (20:58)
a little bit different approach. General rule, the first rule, but this is just a rule of Ayurveda is like when something is wrong, look at your food, ⁓ look at what you’re eating, look at your consumption. This is the first rule for everyone. No matter what this Ayurveda says, start with food. So start with what you are ⁓ actually ingesting in your system. So this is ⁓ the only thing I could recommend to anyone really.
Sam Believ (20:59)
Mm-hmm.
Sam Believ (21:23)
Okay.
Sam Believ (21:27)
Yeah, hypocrite, Hippocrates said, know, your let your food be your medicine, let your medicine be your food or something like that. I mean, that’s a that’s a notable goal of trying to bridge those gaps and bring, you know, Western knowledge together with Eastern knowledge and together with the indigenous knowledge. We kind of added as well, except for I mean, we
Pauli Kulikowska (21:38)
Yes.
Sam Believ (21:55)
We run Iowa screw treat. So it’s very indigenous and we’re part of a tradition and indigenous tradition. This is kind of our core. then we have integration circles or we have integration coach and therapies. And we talk about shadow work and stuff like that, which is kind of a Western approach. And then we do yoga and meditation, which is Eastern. So it’s like that. We’re also trying to find our way to make it all balance out, obviously with the big focus being.
Sam Believ (22:24)
on ayahuasca because I do believe that if you come to ayahuasca with your health issues, it will probably show you what’s, you you say it’s different for everyone. It might show you what you need. you’re really ready to listen, it will show you. What I want to ask you, so you mentioned Reiki and Tantra.
Sam Believ (22:48)
I’m very interested in all those topics and I was not at all before I started working with Awaska. Awaska was the door for me to all those possibilities. I used to believe in nothing. I’m an engineer by trade. was very non-religious, very non-spiritual. But now I’ve seen some stuff and specifically in my case, the journey that I described with the female shaman and her husband,
Sam Believ (23:18)
Waska I was back then I was just looking how to not be depressed and that’s why I was drinking I was I was just From a very sort of scientific point of view. Well, yeah, it’s gonna come into my body and it’s gonna Give me more neuro flexibility and increase my BDNF and then I’ll be not depressed anymore like that makes total sense and then it was like boom and it showed me like how universe works and all this crazy stuff and
Sam Believ (23:45)
One of the things that the medicine showed me was that I am a healer and it was like very uncomfortable to me because I have not ever thought about this and it was just just weird, you know, it was just like, what are you talking about? I’m here to heal my depression. I’m not I don’t want to be a shaman. I mean, like a lot of people do, but I was like, you know, that’s not what I want. So I resisted ⁓ somewhat till this day. However, it just keeps showing me more and more.
Sam Believ (24:13)
And even my very last ceremony was, ⁓ was kind of showing me that again. And I was, ⁓ with having a moment with my wife where she’s going through something and medicine was showing me how to sort of. Synchronize her. that’s like words cannot describe what that process is like, but it does still keeps happening to me. And then I had this connection with my Shaman, which I noticed. And he also noticed that we talked after it later. So.
Sam Believ (24:40)
It’s all real basically all the craziness all the energy stuff is real. I’m still resisting it. But let’s say How does one? Go about that, you know, I’ve been told by medicine I’m a healer like and I’ve been told by all the shamans since then that well if you want to learn you just need to drink more medicine which I’ve been doing and But let’s say somebody is a healer and a jetty killer or something that What do they do?
Pauli Kulikowska (24:47)
you
Sam Believ (25:10)
to hone that craft because obviously there’s not a university you can go to.
Pauli Kulikowska (25:16)
⁓ Yeah, the thing is, ⁓ from my perspective, I can totally relate to your story. Like this is, I feel you, I feel you really with this resisting this healing part and the healing energy and the fact that you have access to this information, how to help people, know, what to do in a particular moment, but you’re listening. That’s the thing, you’re listening. ⁓ And ⁓ I think this is the answer, really. Listen, just start listening, you know, just… ⁓
Pauli Kulikowska (25:46)
⁓ If someone, because I know there are many people who don’t feel good enough about themselves, about their, I don’t know, corporate lives, you know, now they meet medicine and suddenly they change their paths and they claim they’re healers. Everyone is a healer. That’s a fact. Everyone is a healer. Everyone has access to this energy, but not everyone is attuned to it.
Pauli Kulikowska (26:07)
So ⁓ I wouldn’t say that the medicine path is for everyone. It is for you. You got your answers. know, drink more medicine. This is your path. You know, you’re going through this path. You’re learning through this. It’s extremely challenging path. You know, people think drinking medicine is super pleasant. No, it’s super challenging path. So I admire deeply ⁓ you ⁓ for doing this and following it, following your calling because I can imagine also if you know, moving to Colombia and opening a retreat center.
Pauli Kulikowska (26:35)
can’t be really easy. ⁓ But I would say ⁓ the path of learning would be different for everyone. But what is important from my perspective, from my perspective for everyone, for everyone is to develop a personal practice, some kind of personal ⁓ meditational, you know, body-mind practice ⁓ and start to pray, connect, know, manifest, you call it how you call it.
Pauli Kulikowska (27:05)
⁓ for guidance. Because I’m saying that for everyone with whom I’m working and now as well, there is no one path. All the paths are led by this universal energy and one path is not better than the other. ⁓ So I would say pray for guidance and do your practice. ⁓ This is two things connected and the path will reveal itself because it has to.
Pauli Kulikowska (27:32)
it has to, the universe responds to our energy. Of course, according to our karma and all that stuff, know, but, ⁓ you know, ⁓ some spiritual teachers that even say that, ⁓ even reaching or claiming that, you know, for healing energy or for God ⁓ has to mean that we have worked for it, that there is like ⁓ a container of good deeds, yes, of…
Pauli Kulikowska (28:00)
certain level of consciousness that we have accumulated that is elevating us. And we can use this energy to elevate further ⁓ with evolution. Because this is the path of evolution, basically, you know, realizing that the healing… You’re asking me very difficult questions, you know. ⁓ There is no one answer for everyone, really, from my perspective.
Sam Believ (28:27)
Well, that’s a compliment because, you know, that’s for your evolution, Polly. Difficult questions make you think. Well, let’s talk about something simpler. So you are a psychologist by trade. You went to university. what is, you know, how do plant medicines compliment
Pauli Kulikowska (28:39)
⁓ Thank you.
Sam Believ (28:57)
psychotherapy work and vice versa. What’s what is your opinion on that?
Pauli Kulikowska (29:02)
⁓ Okay, so I started to study psychology after my encounter with medicine. ⁓ my me studying psychology and being interested in this subject or understanding that this is my area of natural expertise, because I understand systems easily and the mind is easy for me to understand in a way, you know, the patterns that people have ⁓ has come has come through also through medicine work. I mean, it didn’t come on during the ceremony, but it came through after.
Pauli Kulikowska (29:32)
after. ⁓ My understanding, the moment when I was making the decision to go to study psychology and become a psychologist as well, was that there are a lot of people who claim, you know, they know they want to be therapists and stuff, but they don’t have actual background, ⁓ like background which is settled in science, ⁓ in studies, ⁓ which would mean that for people from
Pauli Kulikowska (30:02)
who come with this skeptical mind, ⁓ they wouldn’t come ⁓ to me potentially, even though I would be potentially a good person for them to work with, you know what I mean. ⁓ And this was my motivation, to open up doors for people who are more skeptical. I loved my psychological studies, I loved my university.
Pauli Kulikowska (30:25)
⁓ has allowed me, of course as a master thesis I wanted to ask, ⁓ write about plant medicine but it was not legal so I couldn’t do like an official study and stuff like this. So finally I wrote about ⁓ the influence of Kundalini Yoga on our nervous system and the sense of happiness and self-efficacy and all that stuff I was measuring with my thesis. ⁓
Pauli Kulikowska (30:53)
Psychology nowadays is different than it was even 10 years ago. It’s developing so fast with neurobiology, with psychiatry, it’s changing, ⁓ this, as you mentioned, integration, psychedelic integration, how it has come into place. More and more ⁓ psychological schools are introducing actually integrations ⁓ into their work.
Pauli Kulikowska (31:19)
⁓ worldwide, you know, and I believe it is ⁓ a growing wave nowadays and it will be growing still because we need that, we need that, we need that connection which is settled with understanding how the mind works in like, you know, with the science study, you know, ⁓ the illnesses ⁓ or ⁓ the problems that people might have with their psyche, right?
Pauli Kulikowska (31:45)
⁓ how it connects with ⁓ psychedelics. There are a lot of studies and I think Mines Institute is doing like a tremendous work ⁓ in this way, you know, ⁓ how they are measuring ⁓ all that stuff, how mushrooms, I think that this is the biggest area of their expertise, but I think they also explore ketamine and ayahuasca as well, right? ⁓ So ⁓ I feel my… ⁓
Pauli Kulikowska (32:13)
understanding is that it will be growing, it will be growing, it’s already integrating, it’s getting integrated into ⁓ psychology. Mainstream, maybe not mainstream yet, but it’s becoming mainstream.
Sam Believ (32:29)
So yeah, I think I was more looking into, you know, if somebody does plant medicines, how it opens them up and then, you know, with a good therapy, they can kind of get results faster. And then I think the analogy that I like to use is if healing process is digging a tunnel, then ayahuasca is like a dynamite and integration work is like
Sam Believ (32:57)
picks and shovels so they’re more precise and you can make an explosion, remove, make another explosion, remove again and kind of like this. as opposed to, let’s say those people that you described that just keep drinking and keep coming back, that’s just like explosion on top of the explosion. can like, your tunnel can collapse eventually or it will be just very messy. yeah. Okay, can you talk about that? know,
Pauli Kulikowska (33:19)
It will collapse.
Sam Believ (33:27)
what is the best way for someone to integrate.
Pauli Kulikowska (33:33)
⁓ Again, there is no one path for everyone. Some people will integrate better through mental work and other people will integrate better through body work. ⁓ Anyway, ⁓ in both cases, I think in both cases, both approaches are very needed. ⁓ both psychotherapy, psychedelic integration, searching circles after, you know.
Pauli Kulikowska (33:59)
monitoring the people after ceremonies and you know being in touch actually being in relationship with people who come to your ceremonies or relation rather right to our ceremonies. This is one thing but then the other thing from my perspective is very important breathwork. Breathwork is tremendous way to integrate and ⁓ it is based on also yogic science and ⁓ what I’ve been taught on teacher trainings also you know on ⁓ yoga.
Pauli Kulikowska (34:28)
⁓ and meditation courses that ⁓ pranayama as the breath extension, it is changing the energetics of the body and if the plant medicines are getting us out of the density of our minds and are opening certain paths, right, whether spiritual or within our psyche, it’s impossible to stay on that level of awareness. It’s like opening, exploring, you know, or as you said, putting a bomb.
Pauli Kulikowska (34:57)
something, something and it’s just basically constant, very radical, very radical and not necessarily healthy ⁓ way of working. ⁓ from my perspective, ⁓ breathwork, pranayama correctly facilitated and performed regular practice of pranayama helps to integrate the work that medicine does as well.
Pauli Kulikowska (35:23)
So this is ⁓ something ⁓ I’m not sure if many people talk about it. I haven’t heard many people talking about it. mean, there is this psychedelic breath and stuff and shamanic breath and holotropic breathing, but ⁓ it’s not really about that. It doesn’t have to be that radical. From my perspective, the pranayama ⁓ or the practice ⁓ of the breath retention, ⁓ it can be very gentle, but it has to be regular. ⁓
Pauli Kulikowska (35:52)
whole point of it. It has to be regular because this is how our neural connections change. So we need discipline. We need discipline to integrate the work.
Sam Believ (36:03)
Is there any chance you could give a tiny little preview into what it means to people that listen? Is there any exercise they can do right now to feel that feeling?
Pauli Kulikowska (36:14)
⁓ I cannot give the exercise because I don’t know the ⁓ physiological state of people who are listening, you know, and that will be irresponsible. ⁓ I would love to, I would love to, but I can’t. ⁓ The one pranayama that is safe for everyone, for everyone, and everyone can do it, is called Nadi Shodhana and it’s balancing the hemispheres. ⁓ And we do it first in stages, so the first stage is safe for everyone.
Sam Believ (36:27)
Okay.
Pauli Kulikowska (36:43)
no matter which condition, whether you’re pregnant, old, young, whatever, ⁓ we divide it into five parts. So five seconds, inhale, five seconds, stop, five seconds, exhale, and we exchange the nostrils. So we start with the left nostril, inhale. Four, five, stop for five. Two, three, four, five, exhale through the right. ⁓ One, two, three, four, five, inhale through the right.
Pauli Kulikowska (37:12)
One, two, three, four, five, stop. One, two, three, four, five, exhale through the left. One, two, three, four, five. And this is one round. Two sides is one round, right? And we do 20 rounds of this daily. And it takes around, I don’t know, maybe five minutes.
Sam Believ (37:31)
Okay, let me clarify for people who are listening. So you put your hand on your nose and at first you close your left nostril and you inhale for five seconds, you hold for five seconds, you exhale for five seconds, you hold for five seconds, change nostrils, inhale for five seconds, hold for five seconds, exhale five seconds, hold five seconds and you alternate so.
Pauli Kulikowska (37:36)
Thank
Sam Believ (38:00)
basically 20 times each nostril or 40 times.
Pauli Kulikowska (38:05)
It makes total 40. Total is 40. But I want to clarify. Yes, but I want to clarify because you said hold after exhale. After exhale, you don’t hold. This is like another stage of this pranayama. But I’m talking about the first stage, which is safe for everyone and which will give results to people. But you need to practice it for six, like really three to six months to start notice how your body is adapting to the… ⁓
Sam Believ (38:08)
So 40 times each nostril.
Sam Believ (38:23)
Okay.
Pauli Kulikowska (38:31)
cycles of nature, because this is what we’re also disconnected from, right? From circadian cycle, from ⁓ interadian cycle, ⁓ from ⁓ the menstrual cycles, you know, this is something I can talk about also as well, know, as a woman who was disconnected from it.
Sam Believ (38:47)
I’m really, really disconnected from that one.
Pauli Kulikowska (38:50)
⁓ Well, I feel sorry for you. It’s really cool experience. ⁓
Sam Believ (38:58)
No, but I do do notice that us men we also have some kind of monthly cycle which There’s no nothing physical happening, but definitely emotionally there. There’s something we all have cycles. We just maybe not aware of them So yeah guys try to try this exercise Obviously not not while you’re working or while you’re driving. Just make sure you’re safe because always breathing exercises There’s always a risk that you might
Pauli Kulikowska (39:11)
Yeah.
Sam Believ (39:25)
You know get lightheaded or faint and stuff like that. So don’t do it if you’re standing on the edge of a cliff Can you Yeah, can you talk to us about what is energy business coaching?
Pauli Kulikowska (39:33)
I wouldn’t have this idea.
Pauli Kulikowska (39:40)
⁓ this is something that we are opening up next year. This is the program I’ve been working on for two years. And we already had some ⁓ people who went through the pilot, ⁓ like a pilot ⁓ program. And this is the program which actually integrates the principles of ethical co-creating within community giving back, also giving back. This is very important part of it.
Pauli Kulikowska (40:05)
But ⁓ we’re also integrating tools like constellations for development of leadership ⁓ for people who are or want to be in leadership positions. So this is the programme that we as Institute will be offering to our people or ⁓ other companies.
Pauli Kulikowska (40:30)
who are open to kind of change their structure or people who are starting their businesses. We worked with both with people who are in corporate environments, with people who are starting their businesses and with ⁓ the team ⁓ of the company. And like the results are amazing because the thing is that when we align correctly, you know, ⁓ our self and our businesses and our relationships and find our role within the system that we’re working with ⁓ or in.
Pauli Kulikowska (40:59)
⁓ The nature is responding and also is supporting those people more financially in the means of abundance. This is coming, you know, ⁓ so it’s using ⁓ all those tools and techniques we’ve been learning and exploring throughout the years.
Sam Believ (41:17)
Cool, I do agree with that that businesses also need more energetic alignment and I really like the topic of conscious entrepreneurship. However, I think most businesses or business owners are not really there yet to start seeing things this way. we have you noticed any…
Sam Believ (41:42)
What is the interest? is like of interest like people like energy? Like what are you? What are you talking about? Like let’s talk about bottom line, you know profits and stuff like that or or maybe that’s my misconception.
Pauli Kulikowska (41:55)
⁓ But you know what, ⁓ I agree with you that for the most part people are not there yet. But when I started my work, in general, doing my work ⁓ and offering the service and stuff, there wasn’t a lot of interest at all. There weren’t many people who are doing that. And now look at this, everyone ⁓ is a healer, know, ⁓ basically, know, in the means of how they’re portraying yourself. So this is…
Pauli Kulikowska (42:22)
This is also, unfortunately, from my perspective, unfortunately, a huge business. ⁓ But a fact is that the business, as you said, needs this conscious touch. And there aren’t many people, many companies interested, but there are more and more because it’s connected with CSR. ⁓ And that’s a good way within the consciousness of companies and people, know, that people are having and developing this understanding of social responsibility. ⁓
Pauli Kulikowska (42:50)
And this is something that we are aiming towards ⁓ within the social developing social responsibility that this is the service that we’re offering ⁓ in response to that.
Sam Believ (43:03)
We had once an Alaska retreat where we had the board of directors of a company and they were five of them they came for a private retreat and it was really really interesting. They got a lot from it. I can imagine if we could get big companies to start making you know one retreat a year it could make a lot give a lot to them and also to sort of group cohesion.
Sam Believ (43:34)
If they’re to make sure they’re all in the same path as you know psychedelics Also, it’s not just about healing. It’s also there’s there’s a big boost in creativity that happens through them I know you like topic of self-love. Can you Tell us how the how does one love themselves?
Pauli Kulikowska (43:46)
Exactly.
Pauli Kulikowska (44:00)
That’s a very good question. Through awareness, through self-awareness. We love ourselves through self-awareness. This is the only path from my perspective. We can have all these tools, know, like hop-on-op-on, tapping, EFT, know, trauma release exercises, yoga, bodywork, even tantra and all this stuff.
Pauli Kulikowska (44:25)
but it’s nothing without awareness, without self-awareness. ⁓ Because all those tools are just tools at the end for developing self-awareness. If we are aware of who we are, there is ⁓ not a possibility of not loving ourselves because this is our essence. And this is what we are aiming to connect to back.
Pauli Kulikowska (44:53)
It’s not like an activity really. ⁓ Loving ourselves is not an activity. It’s a developing self-awareness of who we are.
Sam Believ (45:05)
and what’s the best way to develop the self-awareness.
Pauli Kulikowska (45:10)
Again, we’re coming back. is no one way. There is no one way. there is, again, I’m coming back. Practice is needed. ⁓ Practice is needed. We’ve been conditioned. We’ve been conditioned so long for, you know, through generations and we carry generational trauma ⁓ and the information about ⁓ difficult stuff that happens to our ancestors as well, you know, in the lines that where we were born in, this families, in these lifetimes.
Sam Believ (45:19)
Mm-hmm.
Pauli Kulikowska (45:38)
and all these needs to be released. So we need practice. We need practice, we need tools, we need plant medicine from my perspective. It’s not for everyone, again, not for everyone and not at ⁓ every moment of their lives for sure. ⁓ I feel, ⁓ especially when it comes to plant medicines and using them as a tool for developing self-awareness and self-love, ⁓ I feel one has to have a really a calling to do it.
Pauli Kulikowska (46:08)
because I had experiences where people came to me, especially in the beginning, now I’m working differently, but in the beginning of my work when people were coming to my ceremonies out of curiosity, what is this, I’ll ask, you what is this thing? ⁓ And ⁓ she didn’t work. She didn’t work. Because the intelligence of the plant medicine is so tremendous that she won’t, from my perspective, she won’t allow the… ⁓
Pauli Kulikowska (46:37)
misuse in the long run, know, or ⁓ not having the right mindset or the right intention. ⁓ The other thing is that she could potentially work or someone can get, you know, some slaps for and have very difficult experience, you know, when they are not really ⁓ approaching it with respect. And I feel this is the responsibility of facilitators to actually implement more respect to medicine before ⁓ serving.
Pauli Kulikowska (47:07)
before serving the medicine.
Sam Believ (47:11)
Yeah, agree with that. The beauty of the medicine is that it is self It has its own sort of mind and we do notice that we have We have four day retreats one week retreats 11 day retreats and 18 day retreats and people who come for four days Generally, they tend to be people Not all of them, but there’s always more people in those smaller groups shorter retreats where they just want to sort of
Sam Believ (47:41)
Cross that off their bucket list, you know this ayahuasca thing and they come for curiosity But because we create a container where it’s like our you know, as you know ayahuasca is Can be used for healing it can also be used for growth or spiritual spiritual exploration. There’s just so much That you can do with it We our container is set focusing on healing specifically and then because let’s say majority of the group are Coming for this reason to heal
Pauli Kulikowska (47:43)
Mm.
Sam Believ (48:10)
Then it kind of makes them thinking and they start setting intentions and kind of realizing, yeah, maybe there is through group sharing, they kind of realized that, there is something I could work on as well. So they then get this intention when they come to the ceremony, they understand it and then they maybe not that it doesn’t work, but they see something, but maybe don’t get to completion. And then they come, a lot of people come back for one week and they’re like, yeah, now I know what it is because
Sam Believ (48:39)
I think it’s really hard to imagine, let’s say, if from Eastern Europe as well, know, majority of people in Eastern Europe are pretty very disconnected from spirituality. mean, there’s some religion still left, but it’s mostly just a thing. It’s not like a real spiritual practice. And I don’t really see, for example, my dad, I don’t really see him all of a sudden sitting down and starting to meditate.
Sam Believ (49:08)
that seems like absolute impossibility for me. However, I feel that if I could somehow get him to drink some ayahuasca, there may be this opening where he’s like, you know, because it happened to me, I was never the spiritual guy, never, I could never become one. It’s just all of a sudden I got this curiosity about ayahuasca, this calling, and eventually I did it, and eventually it opened me up to now I also.
Sam Believ (49:36)
I’m learning about the entrant. I’m learning about this and that I’m a little bit afraid, you know, I’m becoming a hippie but but in a good way so it’s like I think one of the things plant medicine can do is that big explosion this big opening and I think majority of people are so far disconnected right now that they need something like that. So yeah, this is my mission. Obviously, I do think I was is for everyone.
Pauli Kulikowska (49:42)
you
Sam Believ (50:06)
least once in their life, obviously, unless you’re very sick. But after that followed with a lot of integration and a lot of meditation and a lot of other good things like journaling and psychotherapy. So I think there is a way somewhere in between those three worlds, which is Western psychology, Eastern tradition and Amazonian traditions, where there’s this absolutely perfect healing that works for everyone.
Sam Believ (50:36)
I know you don’t like that approach here, but I do think there’s at least a general direction we can figure out. Have you been able to see some parallels between work you did with Ayahuasca and some of the Eastern spirituality knowledge? Obviously you’re in India right now.
Pauli Kulikowska (50:56)
Yes, can I answer that question? I just wanted to refer to what you said about your father, because this is exactly ⁓ the case with me and my father. I was trying to convince him and once it almost happened, he was even dieting to prepare for ⁓ the ceremony, but at the last moment he chickened out and he didn’t go, so mission failed. ⁓ But again, coming back, now… ⁓
Pauli Kulikowska (51:22)
Why I’m saying it’s not for everyone? Because not everyone has this karma or will. ⁓ Not everyone wants to grow or develop or change anything in their lives. That’s why I’m saying that also. ⁓ So it potentially is for everyone. I agree with you. It is potentially for everyone, but not everyone is open or ready for it. So this is ⁓ one thing. And when it comes to parallels, ⁓ I see actually a lot.
Pauli Kulikowska (51:48)
a lot. That’s why the vision of the Institute is the way it is at the moment. ⁓ And when we study how people were migrating and what was the story of humanity and how all the traditions were kind of intertwining with each other, the paths were, they were all influencing each other. Like, for example, Polish language, it’s like an ⁓ Indo-European language. It’s not coming from
Pauli Kulikowska (52:18)
⁓ from like, I forgot the name of this language. The most languages now come from it, ⁓ like French, Spanish, Italian, come from ⁓ Latin, Latin. Sorry, I forgot for a moment. For Latin. So Polish is not coming from Latin, right? It’s not also connected with German or with English, but it is connected with Indian.
Sam Believ (52:32)
moments.
Pauli Kulikowska (52:44)
with India, with Sanskrit and with Hindu language. ⁓ you know, we all had these influences that we… ⁓ So, ⁓ my observation is that, first of all, every tradition is talking about the same thing in a different way, depending on the context, depending on the context and the culture, it is a little bit different. ⁓ What I love about India and Indian traditions and, you know, ⁓ the…
Pauli Kulikowska (53:13)
is that in this land, the tradition was kept very strongly. It’s like with indigenous cultures, know. ⁓ But it was a little bit more, I would say, elevated because it was like a huge country, India always was a huge country, ⁓ which ⁓ was abandoned for most of the time, you know, until ⁓ Englishmen came. You know, it was very rich and abandoned country. ⁓
Pauli Kulikowska (53:41)
that there are still teachers and gurus and masters who have kept tradition which was ⁓ transmitted in a very particular way. And even now with traditional tantra and the pidam that I’m ⁓ studying at ⁓ Srividya tantra pidam in Kerala, it’s traditional path. ⁓
Pauli Kulikowska (54:06)
taken out of the context, know, that someone has suddenly created something out of nowhere. ⁓ And this is the difference that I ⁓ see in that way. But on the other hand, the tradition, for example, in Colombia that I approached in Putumayo Valley, the shaman that I was studying with was the shaman whose father was a shaman, whose grandfather was a shaman, and the tradition was also kept in the same way. So this is the…
Pauli Kulikowska (54:35)
⁓ the first similarity that I’m seeing. The second thing that I’m seeing is like the ritualistic approach, the ritualistic approach ⁓ to reality in general, know, the relationship with elements, the relationships with spirits of the nature, the relationships, which are called devatas here, right? So ⁓ it’s all the same, it’s all the same, but it’s just called in a different way, you know, and ⁓ everyone is ⁓ drawn to explore.
Pauli Kulikowska (55:05)
their spirituality or develop, ⁓ as you said, become a hippie, which I don’t fully believe, but like, let’s say it in a good way, you know, ⁓ kind of de-attach ourselves from a system that we are being conditioned into. So now we’re hippies, right? Because we said we don’t want to live like this. ⁓ And exploring, you when we feel that the path
Pauli Kulikowska (55:29)
our personal path lies in and where our karma is because this is again coming back to cause and effect the decisions that we’re making. ⁓ yeah, I see a lot of, and even in tantra, you know that in tantra, I have to say this because in tantra, in very advanced tantric techniques, ⁓ they used ritualistically plant medicines. This is the thing that the tantra is very shamanic in nature.
Pauli Kulikowska (55:58)
And it’s all here. It’s all here. This is the beauty of it. But a lot of work, this is what also I love, a lot of work in here is done without the medicine. You do develop your practice. You develop your relationship with the nature, with the spirits, the, ⁓ basically with the nature, because we’re coming back. I’m not going to develop on this because it’s a lot to talk about, but you know. So yeah, there is a huge similarity, from my perspective, huge.
Pauli Kulikowska (56:27)
bit different expression but still same same but different.
Sam Believ (56:33)
Yeah. Interesting that you mentioned languages because I’m a big fan of languages and I actually speak one language out of every Indo-European language groups, is Indo-European languages are split in Romance, which is comes from Latin, Germanic, Slavic and Baltic.
Sam Believ (57:00)
And Baltic is only two languages now, Latvian and Lithuanian. Interestingly enough, Baltic languages are the closest living languages to Sanskrit. So, for example, the word in Sanskrit for God is what? Deva? What? Dieva? And in Latvian it’s Dievs or in Lithuanian it’s Dievas. So, yeah, it’s pretty cool. Those are the closest living. So, yeah, it’s like somehow…
Pauli Kulikowska (57:15)
Devah, Devah, yeah.
Pauli Kulikowska (57:23)
Beautiful, yeah.
Sam Believ (57:29)
languages came and traditions came. also thought about it, you know, if people that populated America’s came from Asia, obviously there was their Asian Siberian type shamanism and there’s a lot of it looks very similar. They even look very similar to each other. And my shaman is also his father is a shaman. Their grandfather was a shaman. I think they can count at least six generations. So that’s really cool. We’re so happy. I mean, we’re so lucky to
Sam Believ (57:58)
have had people that preserve this tradition because obviously we completely lost ours. ⁓ yeah, we’re coming closer to an hour mark. So Pauli, thank you for this conversation. I think it was very interesting and people will find entertainment and learning in it. Where can people find more about you? Let’s say we have some Polish listeners that wanna…
Pauli Kulikowska (58:03)
Exactly.
Sam Believ (58:26)
come join you in your institute or anything else.
Pauli Kulikowska (58:30)
⁓
Pauli Kulikowska (58:33)
Thank you for inviting me. It was a pleasure. I didn’t even notice that the hour passed. was ⁓ like time flight like this. ⁓ if you’re interested, and it’s not only for Polish people because we’re open and the Institute is meant to cooperate with people from all over the world. So we’re inviting everyone and the website of Institute is healinginstitute.eu because we’re based in Europe.
Pauli Kulikowska (59:00)
at the moment and this is where the base is and we will be connecting all this to kind of hopefully ⁓ do the work that we’re here to do. This is the goal.
Sam Believ (59:17)
Thank you, Pauli. Guys, you were listening to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, we’re the hosts, I believe, and I hope you enjoyed, and I will see you in the next episode.
Pauli Kulikowska (59:18)
Thanks for this.