In this episode of AyahuascaPodcast.com host Sam Believ has a conversation with Hamilton Souther on the topics of shamanism, growing psychedelic tourism, meaning of life and more.
Find more about Hamilton http://www.bluemorphoacademy.com
Transcript
Sam Believ (00:01.803)
Hi guys and welcome to ayah Today we’re joined by a very special guest, Hamilton Sather. He is a coach, an author, an educator. He wrote a book about ayahuasca as well called Medicine Versus Sorcery. Is that correct, Hamilton?
and he has more than 20 years of experience in the medicine world. Hamilton, welcome to ayahuasca podcast. It’s pleasure to have you here.
Blue Morpho Academy (00:33.442)
Thank you very much. It’s a pleasure to be here.
Sam Believ (00:36.555)
So Hamilton, first question, I know you found yourself in the jungle when you were about 20 years old. What brought you there? How did you end up there? Was it, were you looking for healing? Was it spiritual exploration? And how did you find about Ayahuasca so early, before it was mainstream?
Blue Morpho Academy (00:59.39)
Well, in my case, I had a consciousness awakening in my early 20s. And through that process, I was guided to the Amazon. And so I was already looking for an apprenticeship. I was looking for teachers. I didn’t know in which discipline I would be taught in. But it turned out to be ayahuasca practices and other Amazonian plant medicine practices. And I was led to my teachers. And I’m.
I’ve told the story many times, but they had visions for 10 years in their ayahuasca ceremonies of my arrival before I arrived. So they were kind of looking at me going, why did it take you so long to get here? And I had been growing up and living my normal life and ultimately leading up to that awakening. And so I got sent to the Amazon and I got introduced to ayahuasca when I was in my early 20s. And from the first ayahuasca ceremony, the visionary experience was so profound and consciousness expanding.
incredible that it started my apprenticeship right then.
Sam Believ (02:03.13)
So how old are you now, if I may ask?
Blue Morpho Academy (02:07.563)
I’m 45.
Sam Believ (02:09.251)
- Okay, so that’s a long journey. It’s interesting. It’s hard to explain to everyday people about this visions and the guidance and the calling. I’ll give one example from my own experience. The shaman that I currently work with, he’s apprentice. A few years ago, he saw him working at our retreat here in Medellin and he didn’t believe him because there were no retreats in Medellin. So it’s interesting how they can have visions and actually they become the reality.
So when you talk about those visions and the guidance that you received, how did it look like? What form did it take for you? Was it a dream? Was it a vision? Was it an advice or?
Blue Morpho Academy (02:54.066)
Yeah, I was at that time a mixture of everything. I think that these kinds of experiences have become more normal as more people have started to go through consciousness awakening experiences and spiritual awakening. But in my case, I came through dreams and I came through meditations and trances where I was able to communicate with greater awareness, greater context of intelligence and that intelligence was able to guide me.
Sam Believ (03:22.103)
So a question that comes to mind is, if let’s say your arrival to the jungle and your journey was somewhat predetermined, in that reality or in that version of reality, how do you find the balance between what is your actual effort and the work you do with stuff that’s predetermined? I mean it can be a little difficult to just, you can just say, you know, I’ve been, my destiny is set and I can just sit in the sofa and relax.
and it will just all play in mind. So how do you find balance in that? Because I know you’re very productive.
Blue Morpho Academy (03:56.342)
And that would be your destiny. I think it’s, you know, what you’re describing is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you say your destiny is set and then you don’t do anything, that’s your destiny. If you say your destiny is set and then you do a lot of things, that’s also your destiny. And so I prefer to think of destiny as being a kind of determination that we have not predetermined. So in our determination, we set the course of our destiny and we change it with the choices and decisions that we make. And so…
there’s kind of a guiding force that can show us a general direction that we’re taking. But you know, maybe I never would have taken the calling and the guys who had the visions would have just had visions and I never would have shown up. That’s also a possibility, but because I followed the calling and I made the choices and decisions, then we fulfilled the nature of that vision and that vision came true. So I think we have a personal responsibility to play in destiny.
Sam Believ (04:52.397)
What if somebody else showed up? Another white guy.
That’s it.
Blue Morpho Academy (04:58.51)
That’s a great question. That’s up to them to figure out whether or not that’s the guy from their visions or not. To figure out that I was the guy from their visions, they put me through a lot of rites of passage and tests of virtue that lasted over a year and a half. So it wasn’t just like, oh, hi, you showed up from a vision. Great. It’s nice to have you here. It was a much deeper form of introspection that required many ceremonies, dietas, and a number of different rites of passage, including the willingness to live there.
prove my worth of their medicine.
Sam Believ (05:31.743)
Yeah, the destiny is also hard to fulfill. Hamilton, I really admire you because you went through the very spiritual journey, but you’re one of the very few people who can actually talk about it and explain with words, you know, what is happening. And so my question is simple, but also not simple at the same time. How do you think ayahuasca works? What it is that happens?
Blue Morpho Academy (06:02.222)
That’s a simple question and a very complex answer. There’s so many layers that ayahuasca is working in. It’s working on the physical body at the brain level of brain chemistry, which is a molecular phenomena. It’s working at a thought and sub-thought level, which is the electrical phenomena or energy phenomena within us. It then affects our consciousness, which goes into our subatomic and quantum aspects of us that is…
barely understood or barely studied at all. And then in the traditions, it’s described in a great mythology, which is how we navigate the realms of consciousness that we explore in ceremony. And so you have these various expressions within the body that are being changed or altered through the consumption of ayahuasca and the ceremonies. And it’s not just drink ayahuasca and all of these experiences happen. You drink ayahuasca and then you also
have guidance in many forms. And so all of that combined is how it works.
Sam Believ (07:07.363)
So Hamilton, you’re also not just a facilitator, right? You did the whole training to become a maestro or a shaman, in some other words. What is the role of a shaman, you know, in this process that you just described?
Blue Morpho Academy (07:25.022)
Yeah, I went through a formal apprenticeship and I was titled as a maestro when I was 25 years old. So I’ve been doing this for a number of years. And the role is a guide. The role is to understand how to know the energies and the different kinds of…
transformations of consciousness that people are going through. There’s the part that you can physically observe, which is the management of the space. And then there’s a part of it that happens entirely in shared visions and your ability to interject yourself into that visionary field that other people are experiencing. And so you have a tangible and an intangible role that you have to fulfill for others. And then if you’re trained as a healer, then your spirit or your energy
can interject into someone else’s visionary experience and also help perform healings. So there’s the role of the maestro that’s purely an intermediary between the energies and the spirits that are part of the ceremony. And then there’s the role of one who’s trained as a healer who actually gets involved and helps also guide and create the transformation of healing.
Sam Believ (08:31.255)
So do you do both sides of this? Or do you have any speciality? I know some shamans or some titans or maestros, they have like a very specific talents that you have. Which one is yours?
Blue Morpho Academy (08:46.706)
I think my talents are more broad and kind of, I think, cover a wider range of spectrum. I was very interested in my youth in learning all of the different skills. So instead of focusing just on one skill and becoming really adept at that, I was really interested in focusing on lots of skills and trying to become the best I could of all of them. And so I learned to be trained as a healer and I also learned to be trained as an intermediary and a support for the ceremony. And I can, depending on the need,
do both. And then I’ve also pioneered new techniques and new understandings of how to be able to manage ceremonies. So throughout my career, I’ve really tried to push the envelope and continue to evolve and really gain as much skills as I can.
Sam Believ (09:32.919)
you’re somewhat of a spiritual polymath.
Blue Morpho Academy (09:38.726)
That’s a fair description. I’m also interested in other subjects as well within the fields of science. So I think in that sense, yeah, I am a polymath.
Sam Believ (09:48.067)
Leonardo da Vinci of Alaska.
Blue Morpho Academy (09:54.321)
Well, we’ll see maybe further in our lives. I’m not sure we’re ready for that.
Sam Believ (09:54.348)
Um,
Sam Believ (10:01.151)
Do in your opinion so you’re a master so you’re a shaman, but you’re also a facilitator How do you find balance between you know obviously running a retreat or several? I know you have a school and many other venues. How do you balance? The business side of it because it is a business no matter how you how you try to do it You need to earn money to pay the people
and then the spiritual side of it, because that’s something I personally struggle a lot with. So I would really love to learn.
Blue Morpho Academy (10:37.006)
Well, you say a business is a business and you have to treat one like that. That’s a sacred relationship you have with government and with other people that are working to make it all happen. And you need to treat them fairly and give them the best life they can for participating and taking their time to support what you’re creating. The sacred relationship between us and our economic pursuits is personal. And so you have to look deep within your own heart and your own soul to decide.
what it is that you’re creating and why you’re creating it that way. And a friend of mine and I were talking today and he said the most important thing in running a business is that you care. And that there are a lot of businesses out there where they just don’t care, it’s just business. And I think when you bring in caring to how you structure the business, then it makes it a lot easier to balance the spiritual aspects of it with the parts of it that are business oriented. And you can also base it on need. There’s a tremendous variation in need within our society, especially economically.
Whereas the spiritual need is the same between everybody who comes for healing. Everyone who needs spiritual healing needs it the same, but many people have a wide variety of resources that they could contribute to that. And the traditional way of handling that in the Amazon is that people give what they can contribute. And so, you know, when you bring in a price and you bring in an idea of a contribution, you can help manage that. And in our retreats, we offer everybody the opportunity to donate more. We treat it as a minimum donation.
to come to our retreat, but if they have the means to be able to support others, we ask them to, and we also run scholarship programs so that we can support other people who just can’t afford to be able to come to the center. But the importance is to run a business that is a really solid one, that has a strong foundation, and has the ability to treat everybody involved in a fair way.
Sam Believ (12:26.835)
And what about, let’s say, you drink Ayahuasca every day and then at the same time you need to go on social media and post and talk to people and do podcasts and stuff like that. How do you find balance there? Because it’s a very different states of mind, you know. I would almost say they’re diametrically opposite. How do you do it?
Blue Morpho Academy (12:51.362)
The nature of working at Ayahuasca is about training your consciousness. And it’s not just one state of being and one state of understanding. You become flexible in your understandings. And then when you come back to the rest of the world, whether it’s social media or business or meetings, there’s another way of understanding, behaving and interacting, and that requires a certain amount of grounding. And for me, it’s often a recognition of why the world needs these kinds of plant medicines.
And so as you say, it’s like complete opposites. You go to something like social media and it’s an incredible form of promotion and a way to be able to link and unite with people who need to even know that you exist. But at the same time, it’s a very different mindset. And so often that just proves the need for these kinds of medicines more. And it also helps to have a team.
Sam Believ (13:43.312)
So you mentioned that the world needs ayahuasca. I absolutely agree with you, but I would like to hear your opinion as to why.
Blue Morpho Academy (13:55.022)
There’s an inherent conflict in humanity that has been in existence for many years. And when you hear people talk about it, and today, like what’s going on in the world now, they just highlight different kinds of things going on in the world that seem like there’s a lot of injustice and a lot of difficulty that people are having. And when I looked at that from a greater historical perspective, I thought it just represents conflict.
People are in personal conflict, internal conflict, conflict with themselves, conflict in their mind, in their emotional state, in their work state, with their families, with their community, with their society, with each other, in their romance. It doesn’t matter. All the media and feeds on conflict, all of the different kinds of series and movies is conflict driven. And so it just seems like this is a pervasive problem that we have in Eastern philosophical studies. They call it suffering. They say everyone’s suffering in one form or another.
And so when I look at the plant medicines, the purpose of them, or one of their purposes, is to help people transcend that kind of suffering. And so I think it’s a great kind of medicine to be able to support people in their awakening and the transcendence of this inherent suffering that it seems like so many people are afflicted with.
Sam Believ (15:09.235)
Yeah, I totally agree with that. I remember when I first started working with the Ayahuasca, I got really excited when I saw the potential and how it, for example, bonds the group. And the same would happen probably to the world largely. So I started dreaming about this maybe moment in the future where everyone has had Ayahuasca yesterday and you wake up next morning. And so imagining how the world would look like. So then I sit down with the calculator and did some basic math.
And it turned out you’d have to give ayahuasca to 200,000 people a day for 20 years in a row. So not very realistic. And also some people say, you know, that not everyone should have ayahuasca. So in your opinion, do you think we will get to the point where everyone is somewhat spiritual and works with some plant medicines or other modalities? And who do you think should not have ayahuasca?
Blue Morpho Academy (16:08.686)
There’s a great evolution in consciousness taking place that is beyond that of just our conscious choices. And so we have to remember that we’re part of Earth and that as being part of Earth, Earth is really the one evolving us. And as part of that globalization, sharing of culture, and with that, there’s the sharing of the plant medicines. And so this is the first time in history that there’s been such a vast way to communicate the sharing of these ideas, which I think is actually something very beautiful in the face.
of a lot of dystopian narratives. People are going to continue to utilize these plants and there’s a great psychedelic renaissance taking place. And so there’s a lot of interest in them. And when that happens, lots of people are gonna take them. It’s important that those people understand the rigors of the responsibility associated with it and have more training and understanding about the profound nature of these kinds of experiences. I think most people could have these kinds of experiences, the people that shouldn’t have them.
are ones that have already different kinds of mental illness where these are inappropriate substances for someone with that kind of mental illness. Or they need to be in a very specific kind of environment where these kinds of plants could be used as a treatment for that kind of mental illness. As in, you also have to look at different kinds of health concerns that if people have blood pressure issues or they have heart issues, et cetera, then they shouldn’t use these kinds of medicines. And at certain age group period of time, like mid-20s to mid-30s,
Blue Morpho Academy (17:37.022)
different kinds of mental illness in your family, it’s better to also abstain from different kinds of psychedelic medicines or visionary medicines during that time. So I think if you look at all of that, you take all of that into consideration, there’s still a vast number of people that could participate. There are people in the billions that could have these kinds of experiences. And some of the profound experiences that they have are generalized awakenings, a sense of greater connectedness to everything, a greater sense of humanity.
a greater sense of heart and generalized understandings of love. And all of those things I think are positive for society individually and collectively. And so I think it’s something that we need to welcome into societies and just instill a sense of responsibility associated to the use of the plants.
Sam Believ (18:27.415)
You said billions of people. When those billions of people are going to come, and a lot of them will come to countries in the north, northwest Amazon, Peru, Colombia, Ecuador, Brazil. In your experience, as I know you spend a large amount of time in the jungle and you actually live or lived with indigenous people, what was the effect of the psychedelic tourism?
What are the positive sides of that? What are the negative sides? And when the billions come, let’s say, not all at once, but how do we mitigate the negative effects?
Blue Morpho Academy (19:05.57)
The positive effects are really easy to see. First, the indigenous cultures became popular again, including the cultures for their own people. And there was an influx of interest in the cultures, not just exploitation, but actual interest, which is rare and something that’s very beautiful. And there was also an expansive sharing of knowledge, which I think is very important for the world. We have to move beyond certain kinds of tribalism and…
and nation-state dominance collectively. We can maintain that as an identity and a way to understand where we’re from, but the sharing of knowledge transcends that. It’s a human act. It’s a species-oriented act, and we have to understand that. And there’s ways to really pay homage and respect the sources of ancestral wisdom. That isn’t a question of appropriation. It’s a question of support. And an understanding that all of that knowledge from around the world, from everybody’s knowledge.
needs to be brought together for a better species, for a better planet. And I think that the sharing of medicine with people that need that medicine is an incredible gift. These plant medicines are powerful tools. And so to restrict those sociologically and societally, I think is a crime against humanity. There shouldn’t be restrictions to the access of medicine when people need medicine and nature.
the universe, mother earth has provided those medicines for us. And so I think people need access to that. And that’s beautiful to see that kind of access growing in the world. The negatives are of any kind of unregulated space where there’s different kinds of abuses and, um, you know, you hear about them all the time. There’s charlatans in the space. There are people who don’t know what they’re doing, who aren’t trained. Um, you know, and then there’s a variety of other kinds of distortions. And so what’s needed is just.
a greater responsibility from the participants, a greater awareness of who are the people who are doing a really good job and to support them and to stay away from all the different kinds of distortions that are out there or dangers that are out there. And that’s something we can do as a community. That doesn’t have to be something that is even legislated. As a community, we can decide what are the fundamentals that you should look for if you’re looking for a practitioner, a facilitator, or a shaman. There can be a baseline for what.
Blue Morpho Academy (21:29.854)
spiritual retreats and ayahuasca retreats offer as a way of care and safety for you. And if people choose those, then those will be the centers that flourish and those will be the values that we protect.
Sam Believ (21:46.377)
You mentioned people not being trained properly, right? I know you have an academy, right? It’s called Blue Morpho Academy, if I’m not mistaken. If I’m reading it correctly. What is Blue Morpho? Is that a butterfly?
Blue Morpho Academy (21:59.446)
Yeah, Blue Morpho Academy. Yeah, no, it’s Blue Morpho Academy. Blue Morpho is the largest butterfly in the Amazon. It’s the giant one with the beautiful. The meaning of it is vast.
Sam Believ (22:03.759)
It means anything.
Sam Believ (22:09.002)
Okay.
Sam Believ (22:14.347)
Well, talk a little bit about it, I’m sure it…
Blue Morpho Academy (22:15.45)
Yeah, blue morpho has deep meaning. It’s about transformation and metamorphosis.
Sam Believ (22:20.643)
Okay, this is very deep. So because you mentioned training and people not being properly trained, I have encountered situations when people come to our retreat and after one experience, they feel the calling and they, I think, sometimes confuse a decision to go, let’s compare it with medical profession. They sometimes confuse a decision to go to study, to be a doctor with an actual
permission to become a doctor. So they quickly, you know, a few months later, after a few more ayahuasca encounters, they want to start giving the medicine. So in your experience, what is the safe amount of time somebody who wants to pursue that path, what’s the safe amount of time they need to train to? What is the regimen? What do they need to do to properly be able to step on that path?
Blue Morpho Academy (23:20.178)
At Blue Morph Academy, we have four layers of training. There’s the sitter, the coach, the facilitator, and master facilitator. And a sitter coach level training is about six months to a year. A facilitator is a year to two years, and a master facilitator is four to ten years.
Sam Believ (23:40.25)
At which part of time does somebody get the permission to serve the medicine?
Blue Morpho Academy (23:49.014)
But that’s a facilitator level training once they’ve graduated.
Sam Believ (23:49.333)
If any.
Mm-hmm. So the rock we…
Blue Morpho Academy (23:54.082)
So a minimum of two years of training.
Sam Believ (23:58.691)
two years. Okay. That sounds fair. The number I gathered from working with Taitas, the Colombian tradition is always something that has to do with about 10 years, but of course there’s different intensity in the training you can get. What is your opinion on sustainability of ayahuasca as a plant?
I have my opinion but I’m sure people would be more interested to hear from you.
Blue Morpho Academy (24:35.022)
I think the first thing to understand about ayahuasca is that it grows very easily. You can grow it from cuttings. You can grow it from little pieces of it. But it takes a long time to mature. So really good ayahuasca is minimum six years old, six or seven years old. So
People need to plant it. It grows great as a form of local agriculture, although it grows up trees. So you can’t clear cut the forest to plant ayahuasca. You need to leave trees and you need to plant it where it can grow up into the sunlight. A kind of sacred cultivation is necessary and I would prefer that people stop harvesting it from the forest and leave that for the indigenous people who live in the forest. It’s not necessary to go take.
native ayahuasca from the forest, there’s plenty of cultivated ayahuasca. And like I say, it propagates from its own cuttings. And so I think that what there needs to be is a great expansion in sacred cultivation so that there can be plenty of ayahuasca for the needs of the people of the world. And it’s possible to grow enough of it for ultimately all the medicine use and sacramental use that’s needed of it. It just requires dedication and time.
And I would like to see the community really embrace sacred cultivation and insist on the ayahuasca that they purchase or the ayahuasca that they consume, that it comes from sacred gardens where it has been grown and tended with intention and love.
Sam Believ (26:05.875)
Yeah, this is really the beauty of this plant is, as you said, it requires a tree to go around, so there won’t be deforestation. And my taita, taita is the word they say here in Colombia, they use for a shaman. And I know he and his family, they have five hectares of ayahuasca, or jahe as it’s called here in their language, ambiwaska actually in Inga language, that’s an Inga tradition.
What my title told me is a lot of times Zayaska grows where nothing else grows. So it’s actually very beneficial because it is, in the end of the day, it does provide sustenance for the local people because it’s a laborious process and people need to plant it and then take care of it and then harvest it and cook it. And so local indigenous people end up with a share of that.
that if economic benefits that come from all the ayahuasca retreats that might be working with that medicine. Hamilton in one of the podcasts that I listened with you, you mentioned something about nine universal definitions of human consciousness. You didn’t go into that and I’ll be really curious to know because you, if I understand correctly, you found a way to explain
basically everything with these nine definitions. Really curious.
Blue Morpho Academy (27:34.126)
Yeah, for a period of time in my career, I was very interested in the universal states of consciousness, which is something that we all experience or that we all share. There’s so much dissonance and fighting over how we understand things. I wanted to find everything that was universal to all of us. And so in the case of the nine universal states that I found during that period of time, it created a safe place for us to be able to have ayahuasca ceremony. And I call it Medicine World.
And the nature of it was universe, time, eye, consciousness itself, motion, interaction.
Totality or infinity and heart and our decision or choice. And the decision or choices for medicine for safety and well-being of everybody there. So universe time. I, we all share universe. We all share time. We all share. I, everyone has an eye that they understand.
Consciousness itself, we share it, it’s not mine and yours, it’s a ubiquitously shared phenomenon. Motion, the ever evolving, changing. The interaction of that, what we experience, and to your question around destiny, how we change the course of our destiny. Infinity, the totality of everything. And then our heart, which is where we experience our love, we all experience that together.
and then our choice or our decision. And we choose, and that gives us a direction in our life. And we choose medicine and the medicine practices. We choose the beneficial support and wellbeing and healing and love and compassion that we can share through the plants to others.
Sam Believ (29:26.275)
Well, I think I’ll have to re-listen to this podcast a couple of times to understand everything you just said because it is a lot of information. What I am really impressed with is how you were able to just take these nine things from your mind because normally, you know, as you describe, you know, all the presidents and stuff like that, one always gets lost. I’m impressed how you’ve been able to recall it just like this on the whim. And an interesting question is…
So you obviously possess a very high level of intelligence and ability to explain things. Were you always like this or did ayahuasca play a part in improving that and what do you think about general effect of ayahuasca on cognition, on the improving cognition?
Blue Morpho Academy (30:17.806)
I think that over time you can access greater amounts of your own intelligence, but that has to be your own intention. And it’s something that you cultivate within yourself. There are limitations on our intelligence that’s just hardware. It’s just our bodies. And we have to relate to that and understand that. But then there’s also the ability to tap into more of our own innate consciousness and more of our own innate intelligence. And I think that’s what something, that’s where we can use something like medicinal plants.
to be able to support that. And my teachers told me that it was unlimited what we could try to discover. And so awakening our own intelligence was always something that was very important to me. And so I think we can do that. You know, impart ideas like balancing your brain and creating whole brain function. I asked Ayahuasca to make me smarter. I asked Ayahuasca to help, you know, open the nature of my intelligence. And then there’s also a phenomenon where fear in our consciousness.
fundamentally makes us have less access to our own intelligence. So it makes us dumber to ourselves. And we live in cultures that are very fear-based, and so there’s a spreading of that. It’s kind of like its own mind disease, where we shut off our intelligence to stay in a state of collective fear. And our work is all dedicated to turning off that fear and turning on our collective intelligence.
And so I think it can play a role, and I think many of the visionary plants, ayahuasca, psilocybin mushrooms, San Pedro atruma, those three especially, are incredible at opening consciousness and helping turn on our cognitive capacities.
Sam Believ (31:56.887)
So I have my intention for my next ceremony, which is coming soon. I’ll ask I was going to make me a better interviewer and open my capacity to ask better questions. Because because I struggle sometimes, it’s like, should I continue the thread of conversation we’re going with? Or there’s so many questions I want to ask. And it’s a difficult one. So maybe I was can help. I know you have a podcast yourself. Is that correct?
Blue Morpho Academy (32:28.626)
Yeah, I do. I have one called Blue Morpho Podcast and another one that I’ve been starting that’s on artificial intelligence.
Sam Believ (32:36.679)
interesting. After I finish with this topic I’ll ask you about artificial intelligence. But yeah, it’s more difficult than it seems to ask questions and make it sound good. So
Artificial intelligence, you know, I first stumbled upon it a few years ago with an app called Mid Journey and I was creating a collection of psychedelic t-shirts for a little store that we have at the retreat. And I went into a deep dive into creating art with AI and setting prompts and all of that. And I would spend up to 4 a.m. at night sometimes, till I went into a somewhat interesting state where I could kind of feel…
You know, AI and the way it did things somehow reminded me of, of ayahuasca and like psychedelic states. I don’t know if you have drawn that parallel or like how come AI art tools are so amazing to create psychedelic art, for example, specifically. Maybe you can explain or did you notice that yourself?
Blue Morpho Academy (33:50.514)
I have noticed that I think part of it is the training data and the understanding of archetype. When you create AI prompts, you put in very clear archetypal direction into it. Apple, red apple, a rose, a flower, a man, a woman, a car, et cetera. You use words to prompt the AI that are archetypally very clear.
when you want to make psychedelic art, it can draw upon the training data that it has where different kinds of psychedelic states and different kinds of psychedelic artists have provided content that gives it a mathematical idea, not an actual human idea, but a mathematical construct to mix all of that together. And I think AI is very good at that specifically because the nature of the psychedelic state or the visionary state is a mixing of
colors and symbolism and sacred geometry, et cetera. That’s all part of our consciousness. And so there is a unique capacity for these systems. And it’s important to understand that the systems are using mathematics to mimic. They’re not sitting there, AI is not sitting behind the scene thinking things up, like we dream things or imagine things. It’s not there yet in that capacity, but it is using mathematics that is very good at imitating us. And so that imitation is so good.
that it can even fool us. And it’s a very powerful tool in that way.
Sam Believ (35:21.443)
So mathematics being a universal language and sacred geometry in that art, I can sort of kind of try and piece it together, but maybe over time as we work more with the eye on it and it gets better, we can understand it better. Hamilton, you seem like a kind of guy that can answer any kind of question, so I’ll just go heavy.
Sam Believ (35:50.055)
And I’ll give you my own opinion afterwards because I draw some opinions on that question from people after they come from their ayahuasca experience and they tell us what they have experienced. So yeah, long answer short, what is the meaning of life? Why are we here?
Blue Morpho Academy (36:12.142)
The meaning of life? The meaning of life is a continuous evolution that’s a direct relationship between you and the universe. It’s not something we typically think about, but where your body is also where the universe is. You’re not separate from the universe. To me, the universe is what we would think of as source or divinity or God. We’re the creations of that. We’re manifestations of that form.
And so we as expressions of the universe are living the nature of the meaning of life, which is to be conscious beings of the universe, part of God, expressing our totality. And I think that has been reduced by our cultures and society that have separated us in our mindset from this unique union that we actually have, both with the divine, the universe and spirit. And so I think when we take sacred plants, it helps awaken us to the fact
that we’re actually in this merged state. We’re not separate at all from divinity. We’re not separate from spirit, nor the earth, nor the universe, we’re made of it. And we’re acting that out and we’re part of that. And so a huge portion of our life is really the continued evolution of forces that are much greater than us. It’s not just about us. It’s about the fact that you’re earth at the same time as you’re also an aspect of the universe or an aspect of source. And so I think
The meaning of life is to live life to its fullest, to live it in the best way that you can as you’re continuing to evolve this relationship. That where I think of as Earth as a very, very small amount of time, our Earth life, our relationship with source is a very, very long process. So if you think about it from Earth life, you think 50, 60, 70, 100 years.
If you think about it as a soul, it’s billions and billions and billions and billions of years. And so really this part of our life is a very small part of what we’re living. And that nature of soul is actually something for much greater expanses of time.
Sam Believ (38:21.475)
It’s a great answer and it’s very close to what I have gathered. So here at Lawyra we receive about 700 people every year and then we do word circles after the ceremonies and a lot of people touch upon that topic and they explain what they’ve seen and what they’ve understood. And the worldview that I gathered so far about that and about life and what happens after that is that as you said we are part of one big consciousness, part of God, universe and then…
somewhat that consciousness has a desire to break itself into pieces so that each individual peace, let’s call it a soul, plays the game of life to learn something or as in like a form of entertainment to sort of… it’s kind of like if you imagine God as this entity then my understanding is that it creates those souls to sort of live those lives to kind of watch as a telenovela for them to like…
entertain itself. It’s a very rudimentary way of understanding it but it’s some it’s somewhat like that because when you drink ayahuasca then it all melts away and then all of a sudden you feel like we’re one again but then in that unity it’s almost as if because it’s so united and so beautiful and so homogeneous then it’s I guess it’s kind of boring you know to be almighty and to have no challenges.
So next question after that is, from that point of view, or from shamanic tradition, what then happens to the soul after we die?
Blue Morpho Academy (39:59.15)
What I really liked about the shamanic traditions is that they didn’t have an answer that was the same for everybody. I thought that was first a great idea because every other culture had presented me with an idea that, you know, this is going to happen to everybody. Whether it’s reincarnation or a kind of binary outcome like good or bad is going to happen to you. But in the shamanic tradition, it was first of all, when you die, you become spirit. And now what comes next for spirit?
is more vast than what it was for us to all be human at the same time. And so some people have different roles. Some come back to life, some go to other purposes, some they say just are part of the cosmos. They’re just out in the dimensionality of the cosmos. Some unite and unify with source and divinity again. Some go to live in other places. There’s no limit to the imagination around this. That was what was so beautiful about it.
I think very much akin to that, that we don’t know what’s going to happen. That’s part of the mystery and the beauty of life. But we do know from our ancestors that we can still communicate with, that there is something much greater beyond this life. And so I think of it as a kind of preparation for what’s to come.
Sam Believ (41:13.191)
And what do you think about that sort of elaboration on that topic as some people think that the souls, they come and then they come back if they need to learn and other lessons and as if they go through some form of hierarchy and eventually the soul graduates to then be completely reconnected forever. That’s another thought that I gathered from those word circles. And I don’t know whether they have
the people that tell about it, whether they read it somewhere else before, or did it come purely from ayahuasca, or… So that kind of notion, is it… Does it make sense, or do you think it just comes from ego, to say like, look at me, my soul is bigger than yours?
Blue Morpho Academy (41:55.862)
I think that’s one way of trying to rank them. But I think if you’re doing soul ranking, you’re probably set up for reincarnation. I don’t think you’re getting out by the stories of reincarnation. You haven’t gone through all the ranks levels yet to be allowed to leave, I think. So I’m not sure I would do any soul ranking. I think that the idea of learning things and still having more things to learn is a pervasive theory.
and something that a lot of people use as their personal philosophy. So I don’t see any reason to discount that. I think some people come back here to learn things. Other people here aren’t to learn. They’re here to do other things. Some people are here just to enjoy it. They’re barely learning anything. They really are enjoying it. They enjoy the suffering. They enjoy the moments. They enjoy everything about life. And there are other people who come here to have a really bad time. And part of that’s the responsibility of our own species. And part of it is just, I think,
an aspect of our destiny. And so, you know, I think that, one, we need to transcend ranking our concept of soul and just be glad that we are soul or we have soul. And the next piece of it is decide for yourself in your life what comes next. Decide for yourself what you need to do next. And if you want to transcend coming back to earth for more lessons, then fulfill all the lessons in this life. Like, get the lessons done and then there won’t be any reason to be here anymore.
Sam Believ (43:24.023)
That’s a great answer. Hamilton, I know you don’t have much time. Do we have time for one more question?
Blue Morpho Academy (43:31.822)
Sure.
Sam Believ (43:34.207)
I know you mentioned that regarding shamans or maestros or tithes being humans and also we can sort of couple it together with a bit of tribalism and dark magic and stuff like that. Can you talk a little bit about that and what you encountered in your own journey?
Blue Morpho Academy (43:57.61)
I think the importance is to understand that there’s lots of different kinds of spiritual practices first of all. And you have to decide what kind of spiritual practices you want to be a part of. And there are in the Amazon and in all different tribal parts of the world, what they call light practices and dark practices. And I wrote a book about it, Medicine Versus Sorcery. There’s the nature of the medicine practices, which are all about healing and about the union with the universe. And then…
There are these illusory practices and delusional practices that are about all of these other kinds of magics and things like that. They exist and I just put it out there as an understanding for people that you want to be very clear on what kinds of practices you’re getting involved in.
These are practices that have been pressed down for generation after generation over thousands of years. Just because we come from cultures that don’t believe in it or understand it, it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. It just means we don’t have a frame of reference for it. So you want to be careful around it and pick the…
groups of people that you want to interact with that share the same kind of values you do. And, you know, otherwise I think you just know that those kinds of things are out there and you make that decision for yourself. I happened to come from a lineage that healed people that had gotten involved with dark arts and those kinds of practices. And so I learned about them because of that. And I didn’t believe in it at first. I was doubting and didn’t have any frame of reference for it until I encountered it.
And when I encountered it in others and then finally in myself, I understood that these kinds of dark or malevolent consciousness arts or spirit arts exist and there’s just no reason to have anything to do with them. There’s no reason to learn them, participate in them, or perpetuate them. And so that was the decision of our lineage, just to help people who had been negatively afflicted and then move on from it.
Sam Believ (45:51.639)
Yeah, pick the light side guys because the dark side always has a price. The price you pay in the end. I’ve heard some stories about some shamans that took shortcuts. Hamilton, thank you so much for coming. I could ask you a hundred more questions but I know you have to run. Maybe we can do it again sometime in the future. Hamilton, where can people find you? Where can they find your work, your books?
Blue Morpho Academy (46:20.598)
Sure, if you’d like to come on a retreat with us, you can go into bluemorphotours.com. If you’re interested in our academy and our mystery school, either going through the certification programs or our community, you’re welcome to check it out at blue You can check out anything about me and my books and everything at hami
Sam Believ (46:43.331)
Okay guys, check out Hamilton’s stuff, read his books, listen to his podcasts, they’re very interesting and very fascinating. I wish we had three hours to talk because there’s much more in him than it might appear. He has a wealth of knowledge and really, really interesting stories. Hamilton, thank you so much for coming, it was a lot of fun.
Blue Morpho Academy (47:12.714)
Yeah, thank you so much, Sam. It’s a pleasure to be on the podcast and I look forward to another one.
Sam Believ (47:17.399)
Guys, thank you for listening to ayah As always with you, the host, Sam Bileev, and I will see you at the next episode.
Sam Believ (47:29.347)
Okay.