In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ has a conversation with Dr. Lauren Alderfer, an award-winning author, educator, and microdosing coach. Lauren has over 20 years of experience living in the Indian subcontinent, decades of meditation practice, and a unique perspective on mindfulness and microdosing.
We touch upon topics of:
Lauren’s introduction to plant medicine in Ecuador (01:02)
The benefits of microdosing versus macrodosing (03:58)
The importance of mindfulness in microdosing (05:19)
How mindfulness enhances psychedelic experiences (07:12)
Cultural misconceptions about microdosing (07:58)
Using mindfulness to enhance macrodosing journeys (08:43)
The analogy of microdosing as a ‘dirt bike’ on the journey to mindfulness (13:26)
Differences between microdosing various substances (14:22)
Matching intention with the right plant medicine (15:21)
The importance of discernment in microdosing practices (16:17)
Lauren’s journey as a mindfulness-based microdosing coach (47:23)
If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats, go to http://www.lawayra.com.
Find more about Lauren at http://www.laurenalderfer.com and on Instagram @laurenalderfer.
Transcript
Sam Believ (00:05)
Hi guys and welcome to ayahuascapodcast .com. As always with you the host Sam Biliyev. Today I’m interviewing Lauren Alderfer. Lauren is a PhD, she’s an educator, she’s a award -winning author, ⁓ microdosing coach. ⁓ She has experience of decades of meditation. ⁓ She lived in an Indian region for 20 years and lived in Indian subcontinent for 20 years. So she has a very unique.
Sam Believ (00:34)
perspective on both mindfulness and microdosing, which are the topics for today. ⁓ Lauren, welcome to the podcast.
Lauren Alderfer (00:43)
thank you so much for having
Sam Believ (00:46)
It’s a pleasure, ⁓ Loren. So before we even begin talking about microdosing and mindfulness and your recent book, tell us what puts you on that path in life, which is ⁓ pretty uncommon.
Lauren Alderfer (01:02)
⁓ which are the paths of ⁓ mindfulness or the ⁓ path of plant medicine? ⁓
Sam Believ (01:09)
Well, I’m most interested in the plant medicine one, but of course ⁓ I’m sure one would not be complete with the other, without the other.
Lauren Alderfer (01:17)
Right. Well, when I think about my ⁓ experience with plant medicine, I really would like to go back to the early ⁓ 1980s when I first moved to Ecuador and we had an organic farm. And we were the only non -Indigenous people in our village. And so all my neighbors, by osmosis, I learned how to collect plants. None of them were psychoactive, but ⁓ we ⁓ would
Lauren Alderfer (01:42)
pick flowers and blossoms and different things, we put them in the bathwater with our babies. ⁓ And then my husband and I opened an organic store, one of the first natural health food stores in Ecuador, and I would sell about 30 different kinds of plant medicines. So what I mean to say by that is when we talk about plant medicine, we’re talking about a relationship with the medicine as being an integrated part of who we ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (02:08)
part of how we live with the natural world. It’s not just something we take and ingest. ⁓ So I think that that experience from so many years ago has been a real foundation for me. And then when I actually ingested ayahuasca and had my first ceremonies, I had been trying, I wanted to do it for quite a few years in the most recent years, but I never really ⁓ experienced plant medicine as ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (02:38)
ayahuasca and the Andes when I lived there. ⁓ in more recent years, I did have the opportunity because I felt all the conditions were right. ⁓ And I ⁓ went to Columbia and had some beautiful experiences with the plant medicine there.
Sam Believ (02:55)
That’s really nice. I’m glad you ⁓ had this experience talking about ayahuasca in Colombia. It’s a big passion of mine because when I first came to Colombia, I ⁓ was already interested about trying ayahuasca, but I didn’t know it was a thing here. when I learned that it is a possibility and I started working with the medicine myself, our website, even though our retreat is called Lawyra, our website still is ayahuascaincolombia .com. I wanted people to know that there is ayahuasca in Colombia.
Lauren Alderfer (03:24)
Hahaha!
Sam Believ (03:24)
⁓ Because a lot of people don’t know, but ayahuasca popularization in the Western world actually started in Colombia, not in Peru. Like ⁓ Richard Evans Schultes, he was doing his work in Colombia, including McKenna Brothers. They also traveled to Colombia. But then I’m assuming because of the violence, it was moved to Peru. And now we came to the point where people associate ayahuasca with Costa Rica and Peru, where ayahuasca is
Sam Believ (03:53)
has nothing to do with Costa Rica, but nevertheless, we’ll fix that historical mistake. And my hope is to give Columbia the attention it deserves. It’s such a wonderful country. So I know you have experience both working with ⁓ the big doses of the medicine, obviously with the ayahuasca, but your focus is more on the microdosing. Can you talk to us a little bit about that? What are the differences?
Lauren Alderfer (03:58)
Yeah. ⁓
Sam Believ (04:20)
and why are you focusing more on microdosing.
Lauren Alderfer (04:24)
Well, thank you for that question because I think microdosing is not as well understood and I think so much of the attention is around having a ⁓ macro dose and there’s so many people who are working in this space such as yourself giving a wonderful container for people that want to experience the transformative potential of these plant medicines and I think there’s so many people ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (04:51)
that I would trust and recommend, in the microdosing space, I think they’re less. So I don’t feel like whatever I do, ⁓ I end up in a situation that I didn’t think I would, and it’s just unfolding. And if someone wants a macro dose or a higher dose through a ceremony, then I would recommend so many people such as yourselves to have that experience. But I feel really comfortable in the microdosing space. And ⁓ since there’s not that many people
Lauren Alderfer (05:19)
speaking out as compared to the higher dose space, feel very, that’s where I feel my voice ⁓ is best served and my experience best served. Having said that, I bring the sense of mindfulness to the space of microdosing, but it’s really whatever I say about mindfulness ⁓ and my, ⁓ hopefully the narrative around cultivating more mindfulness in psychedelics in general can be heard even for the macrodosing.
Lauren Alderfer (05:48)
Because whatever mindfulness -based approach we bring, it’s the same whether it’s a microdose or a macrodose.
Sam Believ (05:58)
Yeah, it’s interesting in a way that there is this cultural misconception, I would say that when you work with mega doses of psychedelics, people seek guidance because obviously it’s scary. But when they work with smaller doses, for some reason they assume that, you know, I can do it by myself. And yes, absolutely you can, but I would assume it’s better with guidance just as you can go to the gym yourself. But if you have a trainer, it’s going to be a much ⁓
Sam Believ (06:28)
productive experience. So obviously you ⁓ have experience with that. how does mindfulness tie in ⁓ somebody’s microdosing journey and how does mindfulness enhance somebody’s microdosing experience?
Lauren Alderfer (06:43)
Well, they’ll enhance both the microdosing or a ceremonial dose ⁓ equally in the sense that as we build the skills of mindfulness and as we bring in mindfulness as a very explicit way of experiencing these plant medicines, it enhances both the mindfulness process as well as our ability to just sit with what is, what arises without judgment, with a sense of equanimity, with a sense of an open heart. ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (07:12)
when we explicitly integrate these skills, then it does enhance the journey, whether it’s on a microdose level or a macrodose level. So for instance, ⁓ using discernment is one of the first skills I talk about. Discerning what are the causes and what is the set and setting? Do you feel safe? Do you feel held with trust? Because as you know, if someone comes to ⁓ you in Columbia,
Lauren Alderfer (07:42)
What you’ve created is absolutely beautiful, but people also know they’re with, as you say, someone who’s trained, someone who’s gone before, so they’re in a safe space. So the same thing with microdosing, to seek out someone who’s trained or has a lot of knowledge about how to microdose. So that sense of discernment builds trust so that you can open your heart. Yeah. And then also the idea of beginner’s mind, to allow
Lauren Alderfer (08:09)
curiosity, imagination, not to have such fixed ideas of what an outcome will be. So those are just two examples of how we ⁓ can really cultivate discernment and beginner’s mind, and it already helps the set setting before we have our plant medicine.
Sam Believ (08:28)
⁓ And so ⁓ you’re explaining how the mindfulness can enhance ⁓ the psychedelic experience. What about how can somebody’s psychedelic experience enhance their mindfulness? Do you have opinion on
Lauren Alderfer (08:43)
⁓ I have a lived experience, which is why I am now a mindfulness author and I’m a microdosing author and advocate, which is that I have spent many, many years, decades in fact, with a mindfulness practice since I was a kid, ⁓ actually is when I started. And it’s hard work. It’s hard work because when you’re sitting and doing a practice, you’re using effort, you’re training your mind. In Tibetan, the word is lojong.
Lauren Alderfer (09:12)
⁓ You’re not just sitting there relaxing, it’s work. when you have these through, in my own case, I can only speak for myself, but obviously you can read about it in books and go to teachers who have experienced non -linear states of being, non -ordinary states of being. But for me, it took many years of hard work to really be able to access those non -ordinary states and all of the ⁓ benefits they have ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (09:40)
changing the way your lived experiences living with a sense of everything’s okay i’m not just this body i am part of this unifying field of oneness and love so we we see that it’s not necessarily a guarantee but people have access to that experience ⁓ with ⁓ ceremonial doses of ayahuasca within the right environment so
Lauren Alderfer (10:05)
It’s very similar. The narrative around taking high doses is very similar around the narrative of ⁓ a meditation path because people in general are very fixed in their narratives and their ruminating thoughts. both plant medicine and mindfulness practice help us to break open and see things in a new and fresh way, experience different parts of our brain, which we now see with neural connections, which we can prove and ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (10:34)
through fMRIs happen with mindfulness practice as well as with plant medicine.
Sam Believ (10:43)
Yeah, thank you for this explanation. The analogy that I really like, and I don’t know who is it by, maybe you know and you can fill the gap, but it’s about, you know, if you put, you imagine a mountain and a ⁓ non -ordinary state of consciousness or this state of enlightenment or nirvana is the top of that mountain, then ⁓ the mountain has many different paths you can climb, but you know, hundreds of them. ⁓
Sam Believ (11:10)
Mindfulness is one of them and it’s a very sort of maybe slightly less steep but a very long way that you have to get there and There’s many ways, you know yoga and even religious practices and fasting and you name it but ⁓ in that case ayahuasca in my opinion in big doses is Is like a helicopter it takes you all the way to the top, but there’s there’s a culprit ⁓
Sam Believ (11:37)
You can only stay there for a certain amount of time and then it’s going to bring you bring you back down. Maybe not to the base camp, but somewhere in the middle. And from then on, you will have to, if you want to go there and stay there in that state, you will need to take a slower path like, like a mindfulness practice. ⁓ do you know, do you know whose analogy is that or, or ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (11:58)
Well, I’ve heard that in teachings said in so many different ways. I bet it’s like a folktale as well, right? ⁓ But I don’t know if there’s but when you find out, let me know or anybody listening. Yeah. ⁓ But it is true. I think, so I’ve been very motivated when I ⁓ write about and teach about mindfulness, it’s about relieving suffering. I think people are in such a state of suffering ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (12:26)
We are trying to bring more connection to that ground of well -being that we all have. ⁓ And yes, like you say, the path was very long ⁓ with wonderful things throughout the path. But plant medicine ⁓ is such a faster path ⁓ if done with respect, with honor, with mindfulness. If you approach it from really that heart space but with the discernment,
Lauren Alderfer (12:53)
I think that the respectful use of plant medicine is making such an amazing difference that ⁓ it’s our friend and companion and ally that is helping relieve so much suffering. And I’m sure you’ve seen it through people that come through and in your own life, ⁓ through your own experience with the plant medicine, with ⁓ ayahuasca. ⁓ It’s just very, it’s a very exciting time that now these medicines ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (13:22)
more accessible to more people.
Sam Believ (13:26)
Yeah, I guess going back to that analogy, ⁓ your journey is mindfulness and you’re going through this long and slightly less steep path, it’s just slow, but it’s ⁓ manageable. And then in that case, if you add microdosing to it, it’s as if now you have a dirt bike and it’s much more efficient. You’re taking a same path, with more energy. So psychedelics really seem to be this very strong tool, but also once again,
Sam Believ (13:54)
if you have this dirt bike, but you don’t know how to ride it and you just, you know, go in the wrong direction, then it’s ⁓ might be counterproductive. So I guess that’s a, that’s a really good and very complete analogy that allows you for a lot of flexibility. So ⁓ when we talk about micro dosing, do you have, do you talk about any specific plant or specific substance? Because you can, you can micro dose mushrooms, can micro dose LSD. I know people that micro dose ayahuasca even.
Sam Believ (14:22)
When you refer to microdosing, what specific medicine are we talking
Lauren Alderfer (14:30)
Whenever I invite people to approach things mindfully, never say what to do, but for people to look at their using their own discernment, ⁓ what’s right for them. So I do believe that every plant medicine and what we can mushrooms, technically being a fungi, but as sacred earth medicine, they all have their signature personalities. So ideally ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (14:51)
you match that to what your intention is. And I describe intention as a sankalpa, which is like a deeper truth that’s hidden within that you are trying to reveal. ⁓ And ⁓ the plant medicine helps support that. So that would be ideal. And within mushrooms, there are also different varieties. And also with ayahuasca, with the vines, I’m sure everybody makes their own brew. And so there are certain people, all the energy that goes into whatever the plant medicine being offered is has so many ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (15:21)
elements and qualities to it, but I also ask people to consider where they live and what they’re comfortable with. Some people don’t want to do something that’s not legal or get something sent in the mail. If you’re in the United States, if it’s a federal crime or if you’re in Holland, you might try truffles rather than mushrooms because one’s legal, one isn’t. So really whatever ⁓ makes sense for that person. I think all the medicines are ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (15:47)
have their potential. then again, as you say, if someone’s microdosing ayahuasca, for instance, B -CAPI can be is very easy to get and it’s not illegal. ⁓ But it’s not the full ayahuasca. So ayahuasca with both vines can, as you say, can be microdosed and people do microdose. And I know people who are facilitate that kind of ⁓ training for people who are interested in that. But it’s a ⁓ more nuanced
Lauren Alderfer (16:17)
⁓ way of microdosing, but then seek whatever you do, as you said before, to seek out someone that can hold the container for you through that experience.
Sam Believ (16:30)
Okay, so it’s good to know that I guess you’re flexible. Yeah, there’s many things that can be microdosed and I guess ⁓ they have differences, but the similarities, they all lead to the similar opening that then allows your mindfulness to be more efficient. ⁓ Can you talk to us a little bit about ⁓ what is the difference between mindfulness and meditation?
Lauren Alderfer (16:57)
Well, I use the term mindfulness based on this Pali word Sati, which has many different definitions, but it’s just remembering and recollecting. ⁓ But also, ⁓ mindfulness, when I started writing about it, was more of a secular term. ⁓ meditation has more of ⁓ a ⁓ specific term within a specific faith or practice. So whenever I write ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (17:26)
offer things I try as best as I can to not other and to use terms that are ⁓ open to all, no matter your background or religion or faith practice or views on things. But in fact, mindfulness can be a meditation practice and mindfulness can be a path in meditation.
Sam Believ (17:51)
And ⁓ speaking of ⁓ meditation, is there any ⁓ favorite meditation of yours, something that you like to practice or maybe even ⁓ something short you would like to offer to our guests to experience, ⁓ to feel the mindfulness, to kind of understand what it is we’re talking
Lauren Alderfer (18:10)
Sure, I ⁓ would love to do that. And I almost always start out anything with a mindfulness practice. And ⁓ before I do that, can I just make one more? ⁓ I’d like to just touch on one thing, which is because you do a beautiful job of offering a container for people to come to Columbia, stay at that ⁓ in such, you you’ve explained where you are, and it’s
Lauren Alderfer (18:36)
perfect climate it’s love it’s it just it just helps the body relax but you feel safe ⁓ and your medicine is so pure so people have all the outer environment to have a beautiful experience at a high dose so where does micro dosing fit into that as you said when you get to the top of the mountain you don’t just stay there. You know then you come back down and you might climb up again or get on the helicopter again.
Lauren Alderfer (19:02)
But what microdosing can do is once you’ve gone to the mountain and had these really big experiences, there is a natural outcome where people tend to want to microdose because what does microdose do? In ⁓ that sense, it helps that connection to that plant medicine and to that ceremonial experience. And ⁓ also sometimes people will start with a microdose
Lauren Alderfer (19:30)
And then they start to feel so comfortable that then they’re really ready mentally and emotionally for a higher dose. So ⁓ I’ve heard Paul’s dammit talk about that there’s just this natural interplay between a high dose and then going to a low dose. And also we know that the neural connections keep firing even with the low doses. We see the ⁓ fMRIs with a high dose, but we know it’s also happening with a low dose. And just finally, ⁓ we’re building that relationship ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (19:59)
with the medicine. ⁓ So you know that gentleness of the microdose can be compared to doing a meditation or mindfulness practice every day, but then someone wants to go to Bali or they want to go to India and they’re going to go to an intense 30 day or 40 day retreat. Well, we don’t live in that retreat. We come back into our daily lives and have that daily practice. So microdosing can be seen like that where we’re doing something in a gentle way.
Lauren Alderfer (20:25)
within your daily life that has profound effects over time and is very complimentary to the higher doses.
Sam Believ (20:32)
⁓ Yeah, thank you for this additional explanation. Yeah, definitely. I agree with ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (20:43)
Okay, so I happen to have my ⁓ Tibetan bowl nearby.
Lauren Alderfer (20:51)
and wherever people are, they’re driving, please do not close your eyes. ⁓ But just try to find a safe time and place ⁓ as you listen to the sound of the Tibetan bowl. And I’ll guide you through a short practice. ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (21:20)
Sometimes just listening to the sounds around ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (21:26)
A tuning to something that is not just in our thinking mind can bring us to a different place and experience of wellbeing, of connecting to that grounding force.
Lauren Alderfer (21:39)
But our breath is always with us, so we invite in a focus ⁓ on the breath. Just a gentle invitation, a ⁓ gentle awareness of connecting more of the body and ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (21:56)
and watching the inhaling breath and the exhaling breath, ⁓ not changing a ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (22:06)
But just through the power of simple observation, everything can change.
Lauren Alderfer (22:14)
We open the possibilities as we focus ⁓ our attention on the incoming and outgoing breath of the rising and natural releasing of the ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (22:28)
and the gap between the two, an ⁓ invitation of infinite possibilities.
Lauren Alderfer (22:39)
The breath, like life, is forever changing, unique in its instantaneous moment of arising, ⁓ as is the possibility for anything to arise and manifest in our own lives.
Lauren Alderfer (23:02)
watching the ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (23:06)
Understanding the possibility of infinite unfolding in ways yet not known. ⁓ The magic of the world also brings us to the reverent understanding and respect for the plant medicines that are here with us ⁓ in our natural world together, living and breathing.
Lauren Alderfer (23:34)
interacting in a reciprocal relationship always to serve
Lauren Alderfer (23:43)
as we are here to serve.
Lauren Alderfer (23:47)
And in this deepening connection, I ⁓ invite you to connect to that ground of well -being of deep connection, reciprocity, respect, and honor.
Lauren Alderfer (24:00)
which can only cultivate a ⁓ more loving heart, a more peaceful way of being, walking in the world more lightly.
Lauren Alderfer (24:38)
And in your own time, in your own way, coming back to the present moment, perhaps stretching your toes and your fingers, opening your eyes.
Lauren Alderfer (25:16)
How are you feeling?
Lauren Alderfer (25:20)
⁓ I can’t hear
Sam Believ (25:26)
I turned off my microphone so that none of my noises ⁓ disturb people’s meditation. I’m feeling good. I’m feeling ⁓ a little bit more mindful. It’s a nice. ⁓ That’s actually it was a lesson from ⁓ from one of my recent ayahuasca ceremonies where it ⁓ just reminded me about this patience and just to stop and just to just to be.
Sam Believ (25:56)
It was really interesting. I experienced the presence of ⁓ an animal which is a crocodile, which is a really unusual animal when it comes to ayahuasca. Normally people say jaguars and all kinds of more, let’s say glorified animals, but this crocodile was showing me like he was just sitting there on the top of the water with his nostrils and eyes and just completely chill, just
Sam Believ (26:23)
Patience and be in the moment, you know, the crocodile can eat its prey and just like float there for like three months at a time So it’s a pretty pretty mindful animal pretty Calm animal if you think about it this way So it was it was a lesson I got and since then I’ve been able to sometimes not always because you know how hard it is I’ve been able to sometimes I’m Hustling and bustling and I’m replying to messages and you know, you can imagine how it
Sam Believ (26:51)
how difficult it to run a retreat center, then I would just like notice it and I would just stop for a second, put my phone down, just look at a distance and just like get myself back. It’s a really nice practice. So hopefully you guys who are listening as well can take that and maybe occasionally a couple of times a day just bring yourself back ⁓ to the moment and release that tension, know, lower your shoulders ⁓
Sam Believ (27:20)
unclench your jaws and relax your eyebrows and just just be there in a moment. So thank you a lot, Lauren, for this ⁓ mini preview.
Lauren Alderfer (27:29)
⁓ You’re most welcome. You know, when we’re just, like you say, hustling and ⁓ all in our mind, ⁓ there’s a different offering when it’s a more fuller presence of who we are. And I truly believe that that energy gets transmuted and transmitted. So when we’re ayahuasca or cultivating mushrooms, ⁓ every single step of the way makes a difference. ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (27:58)
especially in the plant medicine space, to bring that sense of mindfulness into every single aspect. And as you said, you know, stop, you you breathe. It’s like to be aware because it does count. It does make a difference.
Sam Believ (28:12)
Yeah, so ⁓ as we just experience a little bit of mindfulness and people ⁓ might be considering, you know, maybe doing it more often, can we talk a little bit about benefits of mindfulness practice?
Lauren Alderfer (28:29)
of mindfulness practice is very similar to the benefits of microdosing. ⁓ There’s more of a sense of presence, of not doing like you were just describing and just being. ⁓ That’s one of the biggest benefits that people will say, I feel more present. And when we’re more present, we’re more available to others as well, right? And we’re more available to what unfolds. There’s a greater sense of equanimity. And when I say ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (28:58)
It doesn’t mean you’re neutral without any feeling. It means that you’re actually with a fuller heart, but you’re because when you don’t jump into say reactive, a reactivity mode, you know, it’s you have young children and you’re expecting your third. It’s a very, and you’re running a retreat center. That’s an extremely demanding time of life. And so, you know, ⁓ young mothers are, are a big community that are microdosing because it helps them.
Lauren Alderfer (29:28)
to just enjoy and be a little bit more at ease and less reactive because in a sense you are being asked to do so many things in so many directions. So it’s easier to just jump into reactivity mode. So the sense of equanimity is it’s okay, I can breathe, I can put some boundaries that help me be a better person. ⁓ And you can surrender to a certain degree, but always with a heart that feels more open, more full. ⁓ Connection is another
Lauren Alderfer (29:57)
big one, connecting to that sense of who you are. So when we’re so busy, busy, busy, we almost lose a connection. When people have depression, or especially mild depression, which a lot of people are coming to microdosing with mushrooms for that, is that there is a sense of deeper loneliness, that they’re in it alone, a ⁓ disconnection from their own sense of well -being. So that sense of connecting to yourself, but also connecting to people around you in your community is a big one.
Lauren Alderfer (30:27)
that comes with mindfulness and microdosing. And lastly, I’d like to say that when we are mindful, our heart expands. So we drop down from our monkey mind that’s always thinking, and we drop into our heart, which is always… So I always say we are cultivating a spaciousness of mind and an expansiveness of heart, because when we have those qualities of greater presence and equanimity, of mindful awareness and connection,
Lauren Alderfer (30:57)
We naturally have a heart physically you can see and I’m even changing just the way I am physically we expand you know we have that taller back a more soft chest and heart were physically expanding our heart is expanding our energy is expanding so with mindfulness that is a natural benefit ⁓ and it just helps ease the way in our day and become more proactive watching things happen.
Lauren Alderfer (31:26)
calmly abiding in life, but really generating out more loving compassion.
Sam Believ (31:33)
It’s great that you mentioned ⁓ microdosing ⁓ when it comes to mothers and you mentioned depression as well because ⁓ the reason I’m personally a fan of microdosing is ⁓ that it can be used sometimes where mega dosing is not really available. For example, when my wife had our second child, ⁓
Sam Believ (32:00)
I started noticing that she ⁓ was getting very negative and just kind of upset about things where there was really no reason to be upset. I was at first, I was like, are things really that bad? And then it just hit me that, you know, she’s sliding into depression and everything is doom and gloom. So, and just so happened to be, had ⁓ some mushrooms specifically. And so I put her in a microdosing ⁓ protocol. ⁓
Sam Believ (32:30)
I work with microdosing myself in the past. I’ve read a lot about it, so I know a fair bit about it. And within a few weeks, she was back to normal. So it’s an amazing tool that both she and me ⁓ now occasionally use. ⁓ Because ⁓ even though ⁓ we literally live with an iOS screw treat and have the medicine readily available, ⁓ in some stages of pregnancy, it’s not really ⁓ the best thing to do because obviously it’s hard in your body and can ⁓
Sam Believ (32:58)
purging can be challenging as well. it is a great tool when it comes to ⁓ that. Have you ever observed microdosing with ⁓ postpartum? What is your opinion on that? ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (33:10)
⁓ Well, I’m so glad you brought it up and I’m so happy that your wife found relief through ⁓ the plant medicine or through the sacred earth medicine of mushrooms, whichever she took. ⁓ it’s a very exciting time for women’s health when it comes to microdosing because I think, I believe it’s Ohio State is now undergoing some research using psilocybin for postpartum depression. ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (33:34)
We see now there’s a lot of ⁓ citizen science that’s coming out for breastfeeding. think in James Fadiman’s book, co -authored with Jordan Gruber, that’s coming out next year, we’re going to see that citizen science. A colleague of mine has just ⁓ done some of that research ⁓ with women who are breastfeeding and with postpartum, I believe. ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (33:57)
Women’s health has not really been the forefront of clinical studies, and now we’re seeing that the plant medicine has great promise. And ⁓ especially, and ⁓ what you just described is citizen science, and we can’t stop the citizen science, and people are finding these incredible changes that are so easy through microdosing, and that’s part of the reason why, excuse the pun, it’s mushrooming. ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (34:27)
We’re just gonna see more and more, but for women’s health and microdosing, it’s almost like a marriage made in heaven.
Lauren Alderfer (34:35)
Yeah, it’s a very exciting time.
Sam Believ (34:38)
Definitely, yeah, we live in very challenging times, ⁓ as you probably notice politically and environmentally, and there’s all kinds of conflicts. We also have a unique tool set available for us to overcome those challenges. ⁓ I wanted to talk about another benefit of microdosing that I think that, ⁓ or generally, I want to talk about my personal holistic view ⁓
Sam Believ (35:08)
plant medicine. So I think that somewhere there exists this perfect holistic protocol where you would combine something like for somebody who just embarks on this journey and let’s say somebody who is depressed. I would say for me and I would want to hear your opinion for me it would be something like you come in and you take ⁓ for example as you’re quitting antidepressants you could use microdosing to to help ⁓
Sam Believ (35:36)
offset the ⁓ negative effect, right? Then ⁓ you go for a full -fledged one -week ayahuasca retreat and you just deep dive and you address what is the root trauma that was causing you to be depressed in the first place or maybe life conditions. ⁓ And in this retreat, you learn about yoga, meditation, and journaling, because that’s what we do with people that come here. ⁓ We really train them on how to integrate. And then as you go ⁓
Sam Believ (36:06)
you start ⁓ after maybe a short break, you start working with micro dosing together with mindfulness as you integrate your experience. And then maybe you include other modalities like yoga or working with the integration coach or psychotherapy. And then maybe sometime like three, four months later, you work with the higher dose ⁓ of mushrooms. Again, back to integration.
Sam Believ (36:33)
And then maybe a year later, go back to ayahuasca. think like, I see this like perfect protocol that exists, ⁓ that needs to be discovered and, ⁓ popularized that would just completely, completely put somebody because like, if you just do a lot of ayahuasca and no guidance, no integration, you just go back to the real life. ⁓ you get your, you get beaten up by, ⁓ you know, how sick our society is. It’s really hard to be happy in that society, no matter how mindful you
Sam Believ (37:02)
And then like, think there needs to be this, it’s like big up and then bump, bump, bump and like another app. And so what do you think about that? Does it, does it make any sense?
Lauren Alderfer (37:11)
Well, it makes complete sense, and I think people are already doing that. They are already searching that out, and I think there are some, ⁓ I know personally of people who are doing something similar to what you’re saying, ⁓ because especially people ⁓ who suffer from ⁓ clinical depression that isn’t treated medically, that can’t be treated medically, you know, ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (37:37)
Everybody has a different brain and these medicines are helping our brain. So having a deep dive, but then the bump, bump, bump that completely changes things in a way that helps those neural connections is something that I have personally seen with others that has made a huge difference. ⁓ And we’re beginning to see different medicines and there are different ⁓ benefits for different things. when we’re talking about drug addiction versus ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (38:07)
a drug resistant depression. know, we see people seeking out different things that ⁓ it’s like, what’s going to help you stay alive? ⁓ as one friend said, this helped me stay alive. I’m alive today because of the plant medicine. But then it’s more than just to stay alive, then to start to be able to participate in your life in a way that feels hopeful and good is ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (38:36)
the support of different kinds of plant medicines or ⁓ sometimes, you know, with some of the other things that aren’t technically plant medicines, but psychoactive such as Bufo or something like that ⁓ has made significant differences in people’s lives. So I love what you are ⁓ proposing as you see, you ⁓ know, an offering for people. And yes, people are seeking things like this out right now. But ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (39:05)
You’re in Colombia, you know, and I’m in North America for the first time living here ⁓ after so many years and we have to ⁓ people do consider legal legalities and access and safety and trust. So ⁓ hopefully those are issues that will be more accessible to people in a way that they can make choices with discernment, knowledge, information, ⁓ safe environments.
Sam Believ (39:32)
Well, information is what we’re creating here right now, know, ⁓ educating people and giving them food for thought. But yeah, obviously, hopefully over time, legality issue will be a thing of the past as we understand that those are medicines and calling them drugs was a mistake to begin with. But yeah, regarding this whole holistic view, I think there is there needs to be more acceptance also in the the psychedelic space and even mindfulness space because there’s a lot of ⁓
Sam Believ (40:03)
conflict of interest as in like somebody will say, no, I will never do plant medicine because I only do this specific type of mindfulness work and that’s the only way. So it kind of like almost becomes this religious ⁓ zeal thing where like only this works and everything else is garbage. Kind of like ⁓ I recently went, my sister invited me to go to the Joe Dispense event and I was hesitant but I still went. I wanted to learn more.
Sam Believ (40:32)
And ⁓ I was really surprised that he would say negative things about plant medicines. And I was like, well, we’re literally doing the same thing, just like in a different way. Like, why would you say that? And ⁓ it’s strange, know, it’s strange. Like even in this tiny little world of like people that are seeking change, there’s still a conflict between like, it’s like my thing is the best. No, your thing is the best. Instead of being like, yeah, I’m going to use this and that and that, and I’m going to combine it all together. ⁓
Sam Believ (41:02)
So there’s, yeah, there’s this thing which I don’t necessarily understand. I don’t know if you want to comment on
Lauren Alderfer (41:09)
⁓ Well, I’d say that that was actually my own experience. think a lot of ⁓ because in my meditation, my years of mindfulness practice and through meditation, in my experience, I wasn’t it was you don’t do drugs, you attain these states of being these non ordinary states of being on your own without quote unquote intoxicants. So in a way, I felt that stigma. And that’s why it took me many, many years ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (41:38)
to even decide that I wanted to have a higher dose. ⁓ at that point, plant medicine was more a ⁓ part of ⁓ a public discourse. But then within the psychedelic landscape, a lot of the information goes back to the 60s, and there were a lot of drugs in the United States, and people indulged in lots of drugs. So some of the meditation teachers that we see today in the West ⁓ actually
Lauren Alderfer (42:07)
started out by having high doses and experiencing those non -ordinary states of being some of the most well -known teachers. ⁓ So ⁓ I find that very interesting, but in my own experience and spending so much time out of the United States ⁓ and through my practices, ⁓ it was really the narrative was don’t take intoxicants. So there was that stigma. So I had to come to my own understanding.
Lauren Alderfer (42:34)
that where I felt comfortable, which also took several years because I do, ⁓ everybody has their own path and everybody has a certain. ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (42:44)
Well, what I’d like to say is that with some of the people who have had those plant medicine experiences, they want to keep it quiet in the mindfulness world. it’s just a place and time where we’re at to understand. And I think things will change as we understand that we can look at it. It’s really the narrative that we’re trained to look at things as. And so I look at plant medicine as I do Ayurvedic medicine. And Ayurved,
Lauren Alderfer (43:14)
You take some things that can be poisoned, but you take it in a way that’s going to be beneficial. In homeopathic medicine, you take a micro micro dose of something that could kill you, but you use it in a way that’s going to build your immune system or in the case ⁓ in a specific case of, ⁓ so I look at plant medicine and psychoactives in that way. If we can understand that we are in this relationship with things and ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (43:43)
So for me, I’ve come to my own understanding of it. I presented in the book, ⁓ in my book, Mindful Microdosing, a guidebook and journal, I presented as invitations to ways of thinking about plant medicine. But I also see that, you know, everybody comes to their own life and their own decisions in their own way. But what you’re describing is definitely part of the psychedelic landscape of the sacred earth medicine landscape.
Sam Believ (44:11)
Yeah, definitely. you mentioned your book. Talk to us a little bit about that. Why did you feel ⁓ like writing that book? ⁓ for those who might be interested, why should they read
Lauren Alderfer (44:25)
So when I, this is the book came out in April, I wrote it ⁓ last year, which means that the idea was ⁓ a year before that. It came out quite quickly. It usually takes three years from ⁓ idea to publishing. But just a few, years ago when I became very involved in being trained as a microdosing coach, that’s when I ⁓ saw that there really wasn’t, at that time there really wasn’t, there wasn’t anything ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (44:55)
Amazon that had to do with mindfulness and microdosing if you go on Amazon today ⁓ There are so many there are quite a few choices Originally, I was just going to do a mindful microdosing journal. So it was just a journal, but then I felt that it needed a context so I give some background of What mindfulness is what microdosing is and then basically the three stages of microdosing is preparation when you’re actively microdosing and integration and then I was I was ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (45:25)
with some people that I highly respect in conversation that information is knowledge and it’s harm reduction. So I did include some charts that are usually referred to with permission from the microdosing institute, those are included. But I do so in a way of people trying to individualize the process so they have agency over their own decision making and what’s right for them. The reason why I wrote the book wasn’t because I set out to write a book. The reason was because as a mindfulness teacher and author,
Lauren Alderfer (45:54)
as I entered into the psychedelic landscape, I saw that there really isn’t a narrative around mindfulness as a foundation and pillar for psychedelic experiences, be it micro or macro. Trauma -informed is very much a big part of it as it should be. There are pieces of mindfulness within that, but to me, mindfulness as a mindfulness -based approach to ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (46:22)
wasn’t part of the narrative and because this is still a very new and changing pioneering landscape, ⁓ I felt that that would be of benefit to facilitators, owners of retreats like yourself. ⁓ And so that’s really what I ⁓ like to talk about and train facilitators in. But the book itself has that sense, but for microdosing, but ⁓ equally applicable to macrodosing. So for instance,
Lauren Alderfer (46:50)
If you want a beautiful journal, the illustrations are by a wonderful Mexican artist, Mariana Juarez. ⁓ It’s an opportunity to take the book and just use it as a journal for a higher dose as well. And the tenets of mindfulness are equally applicable to a higher dose journey or ceremonial journeys.
Sam Believ (47:11)
Thank you for sharing that. So you mentioned that you’re also a microdosing coach. Can you maybe tell us some stories or like unique challenges you encounter with people who are microdosing?
Lauren Alderfer (47:23)
Well that’s the most gratifying and why I just get fueled to keep speaking out. And one of the reasons I ⁓ like to speak out is because there are so many people who are younger with children and where things are not legal yet don’t feel like they can put themselves at risk. ⁓ I feel that I’m in position where I can do that. So when I’m working with people and I hear these extraordinary stories, it just makes me.
Lauren Alderfer (47:48)
more fuel to try to change laws and advocate for access to these amazing medicines that are here to serve us. ⁓ one of the, I’ll tell you maybe two, and then you ask me if we have time for more. ⁓ One is of someone who is a ⁓ veteran of a war who had been suffering from post -traumatic stress for decades and had, ⁓ after coming back, went for therapy and some treatment and nothing really helped. And so
Lauren Alderfer (48:17)
He just stopped and was not interested, is not interested in a higher dose, just not interested. And ⁓ for some reason, ⁓ there was a personal connection, so there was trust to at least, no, actually, he didn’t start microdosing with me. His wife did. He saw the changes in his wife so immediately, because it’s hard to be a caretaker or be in partnership with someone who suffers from PTSD and depression and ruminating thoughts. He saw her change so dramatically that then he came to me.
Lauren Alderfer (48:47)
Within a few weeks at a dose lower than 50 milligrams, which is usually what you see on the internet, he is sensitive to medicine. So we started at a lower dose. He said for the first time in decades, he didn’t stop having ruminating thoughts, but they didn’t take the hold and the grasp and catch him there. He could watch them and notice them instead. He said it was ⁓
Lauren Alderfer (49:14)
feeling like he had space and freedom for the first time in decades. This is with a microdose. Another current client ⁓ has many medications and has MS and is in chronic pain. She’s been in chronic pain for over a few decades. ⁓ And actually, I didn’t really want to take on this client because it was so complicated. I asked if I could be with a team of her doctors, but she had such a deep sense that the medicine is there to
Lauren Alderfer (49:44)
and her doctors weren’t supportive. So I always say to people, we’re on a journey together, a journey of unknowing and discovery. So if they trust me and we take it so slowly, but within a week or two, she said for the first time in years, she’s had a breath and a space from her pain. She notices the pain.
Lauren Alderfer (50:05)
she feels like there’s a window ⁓ and in the window there’s space. And then just a few days ago, she wrote that her husband said it was so good to hear her laugh in the morning. He hadn’t heard his wife or partner laugh in years because when you’re in chronic pain, you are in such deep suffering, not just physically, emotionally, you know, in your relationship. So those are just two stories just with microdosing
Lauren Alderfer (50:33)
And in both cases, it’s under 50 milligrams because when we microdose with that container of greater mindful awareness, that greater sensitivity, everything is enhancing each other to have a more beneficial outcome.
Sam Believ (50:50)
Beautiful stories, thank you for sharing them. Yeah, definitely having working with people and seeing their result is a great fuel for motivation because sometimes it can be difficult ⁓ and then a lot of times it’s going against the stream. ⁓ I think it was a really beautiful, interesting conversation, especially for people who are interested in microdosing. So as we wrap up, can you tell us more about…
Sam Believ (51:18)
⁓ where to find more about you, maybe people want to find you as a coach and also how is the best way for them to find your
Lauren Alderfer (51:27)
⁓ So my website is laurenaldifer ⁓ .com, my name, and I suppose you’ll also have that as a link. ⁓ And all the information is on there too. ⁓ If you want to work with me one -on -one, the book is also available as a link there onto Amazon. ⁓ So it’s available in Europe through ⁓ microdose, microdose NL, the biggest microdosing shop in ⁓ Europe and Holland.
Sam Believ (51:36)
You hear
Lauren Alderfer (51:55)
but it’s also amazon .ca in Canada, amazon .com in the United States, and those can be shipped to Columbia, wherever you are in the world. ⁓ I am currently working on a course that will be online ⁓ to accompany the book and give a fuller ⁓ context and container for microdosing. ⁓ So those are, and then of course I’m on Instagram and LinkedIn as Lauren Alderbrook.
Sam Believ (52:23)
Thank you, Lauren. Thank you so much for sharing. ⁓ Guys, thank you for listening to IOWASC podcast and I will see you in the next episode.