In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with Matt Zemon.

Matt is an educator, author, and leader in psychedelic wellness, specializing in the impact of psychedelics on mental health. Holding a master’s degree in psychology and neuroscience, he has authored several bestselling books, including Psychedelics for Everyone and The Veterans Guide to Psychedelics. His latest book, The Beginner’s Guide to Psychedelics, explores how to safely navigate the world of plant medicines.

We touch upon topics of:

  • Matt’s first psychedelic experience and its impact (00:57)
  • His journey exploring different psychedelics worldwide (01:22)
  • The role of Ayahuasca in veterans’ healing (03:01)
  • Why veterans respond well to Ayahuasca therapy (04:30)
  • The importance of multi-night Ayahuasca retreats (06:19)
  • Launching a nonprofit for veteran-only Ayahuasca retreats (08:17)
  • Potential challenges of veteran-exclusive Ayahuasca groups (09:14)
  • The idea of UFC athlete Ayahuasca retreats (11:28)
  • The connection between psychedelics, PTSD, and trauma healing (13:35)
  • Psychedelics as catalysts, not cures (18:11)
  • Integration: What to do after an Ayahuasca experience (19:14)
  • The power of community in sustaining psychedelic healing (20:35)
  • Bringing psychedelics into family settings (25:09)
  • The role of psychedelics in modern rites of passage (28:38)
  • Spirituality’s role in psychedelic healing (46:03)
  • The future of psychedelics and concerns about commercialization (49:14)

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats, go to http://www.lawayra.com.

Find more about Matt Zemon at http://www.mattzemon.com or follow him on LinkedIn and Instagram. His new book The Beginner’s Guide to Psychedelics is available on Amazon.

Transcript

Matt Zemon: You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast.com. Psychedelics aren’t a cure for anything. They’re catalysts. They are things that we do periodically to help connect with source or spirit or God or whatever you wanna call it. They are a tool to. Connect with community to remember that we are not alone in this world and that we are supported by this world.

They help put our biologically, put us into a position where we can unpack these things from the past or look at the present with clearer eyes. But then we start the practice. We take these insights and awarenesses and awakenings, and we move them into the everyday life. It’s not like our western idea of medicine.

We’re gonna take a pill. Cure us. No, it, it will help give us insights and awakenings and awarenesses that then we can choose to bring into our everyday experience or not. But that’s the practice, that’s the integration, that’s what most of life is.

Sam Believ: Hi guys, and welcome to Ayahuasca podcast, as always with you, the whole assembly. Today I’m having a conversation with Matt Zaman. Matt is an educator, author, and a leader in psychedelic wellness, specializing in the impact of psychedelics on mental health. He holds a master’s degree in psychologist psychology and neuroscience.

Matt has authored several bestselling books. Including psychedelics for everyone. The Beginner’s Guide to these powerful medicines for Anxiety, depression, addiction, PTSD, and expanding Consciousness Beyond the Trip and the Veterans Guide to Psychedelics. In this episode, we talk about why psychedelics are for everyone, psychedelics for veterans and first responders.

Why you should have several. Back-to-back ayahuasca ceremonies and not just one. Finding a conscious community, psychedelics as a rite of passage, future of psychedelics in our society, role of spirituality and healing. Spiritual amnesia, and so much more. Enjoyed this episode. This episode is sponsored by Lara Ayahuasca Retreat.

At Laira, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity. Ra, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you. Matt, welcome to the show.

Matt Zemon: Sam, it’s great to be here. I appreciate all the work you do in the world with ayahuasca.

Sam Believ: Thank you, Matt. Same goes to you. Matt talk to us a little bit about your life story and what brought you to this path.

Why is, why are psychedelics your focus?

Matt Zemon: Sam, I fell into this by accident. I had some friends invite me, in my case to a guided magic mushroom journey. And I went in with really low expectations. And in that first ceremony that changed the way I look at the world. I reconnected with my mom who died when I was 22.

She was just 49. I had insight after insight. I felt so incredibly safe and loved. And then I realized I don’t feel that level of safety and love in my everyday life, and I wanted to know more about that. And when I came outta that ceremony, I knew I needed to learn more, so I went back to school.

I got that master’s you were talking about, but I also traveled around the world and experienced different types of psychedelics from different types of practitioners. Everything from Tatas and shaman and maestros and straws to MDs and PhDs. And at this point I love the intersection of where of spirituality and medical best practice.

Sam Believ: Thank you for sharing that. You said there was an accident that you fell into the space. I would call it a synchronicity. I guess it’s a very similar story to many people. You just. One day, find yourself that nothing excites you more. You mentioned mushrooms and then you said you tried different psychedelics.

Talk to us about that. What what psychedelics do you work with and what do you think about ayahuasca and I know you had ayahuasca experiences as well.

Matt Zemon: Yeah, of course. Primarily. I work with psilocybin these days. From time to time I participate in a ceremony that includes sassafras and that includes bufo and then in the veterans work I’ve been doing over the past this past year in particular, they do a lot of work with ayahuasca.

So I ended up doing work with more work with Ayahuasca this past year. I worked with a group called Heroic Hearts Project, and they take veterans to Central and South America and Mexico, and now to Oregon where they can access legal psychedelics and have really transformative experiences focused typically on, on treatment resistant post-traumatic stress disorder.

And for them ayahuasca and high dose mushrooms seem to be the most effective. And it was beautiful to get back into the jungle, to work with Shabo healers and to and to watch the transformations take place and participate over, over, over a course of a week this past summer with them.

Sam Believ: It’s interesting that that you speak about veterans specifically, at the moment here at my retreat, we actually have a group of 26 people, two of which are veterans. So this morning we’re at the word circle and one of them was talking about that he felt that he was carrying this dead body of the last person he killed in war.

On himself. And he got released from it. So it’s really interesting. I’m very for no particular reason. I’m really passionate about that. ’cause I’ve seen how many, how much it helps veterans specifically. So talk to us about that. What have you observed in in work with veterans?

Why do veterans seem to respond specifically that wall with ayahuasca? Anything about that topic?

Matt Zemon: Yeah, I think I went into this year certainly knowing or expecting that the stories from being in combat or from the intensity of some of the training was gonna lead to trauma. What I think I was most surprised about is how many of these soldiers or these veterans that I spoke with that had really challenging childhoods.

Those childhoods, those challenging childhood childhoods is what led them to the military to begin with. So as I watched them in preparation sessions, as I participated in ayahuasca with them, as I sat and did integration sessions with them, the in many cases, the trauma they were unpacking is not that different than the trauma that many people unpack with ayahuasca.

So then why ayahuasca? It’s, I think for. For this group, I think having having the ability to turn down shame, blame and guilt. I think having the trust in the ceremonial process versus the medical process is something that mattered. And I think there’s a physicality to ayahuasca that the veterans in particularly, I think they wanted, that, they wanted that the purging the nighttime, ceremony. Yeah, I think just the overall intensity of it. And then I think I, in their case, they did three nights in a row of of ayahuasca and I actually, that’s the only time, that’s the only way I’ve experienced it, is back to back. And I think that’s also super helpful and that they, it takes the pressure off.

I’ve seen so many ceremonies where people come in for one day and it’s oh, I’ve gotta make it happen. I’ve gotta make something happen today. When you have back to back, it takes the pressure off. And then I think what ends up happening is people have experience after experience.

Has that been your experience, Sam?

Sam Believ: Yeah, definitely. So a lot of people don’t know, but with ayahuasca as opposed to mushrooms there’s something that’s called reverse tolerance. So the more you drink, the more sensitive you become. So for example, if you work with mushrooms and somebody takes. Five grams of mushrooms today, five grams of mushrooms tomorrow, it, the result diminishes and you cannot really give them a little bit more mushrooms.

It’s the titration is only possible with with the, because you can give them just a little more and it will be actually. As strong as it was and even stronger. So we do four day retreats, one week retreats, 11 day retreats, 18 day retreats. I always recommend one week, four days is for somebody who has done it before.

They just need a quick reconnect and they absolutely cannot give more than a weekend for that. So definitely what we do is three night ceremonies, then one day break, and then one day ceremony, and it’s like the chair on top. And this has been a absolutely winning format, yeah, one day Ceremonies definitely don’t recommend ’cause half of the people will leave empty handed and frustrated even though something will be done.

But it’s, when I say to people, it’s on the first ceremony, only half of you will connect. People will assume that it’s too bad for the other half that will not connect. That happens over and over again. Interestingly I wanna talk, I wanna keep talking about veterans and I is glad, I’m glad that you have the experience.

I’m actually working right now with one of the veterans that came through our doors, and also one of the girls that came through the wire and she also, she started an NGO. So we’re working together to start an NGO to get people to donate, to organize veteran only retreats. And it’s something I’ve been thinking about since the day I started the retreat and we had probably close to close target veterans coming through our door.

We already have a name. It’s actually play on hero’s journey, but it’s hero’s healing journey. So it’s it would be retreats for first responders. I think it’s the first time I mentioned it publicly. Not that a lot of people care, but still. The idea is doing this, but I’ve always wondered, ’cause I’ve never had more than three veterans per ceremony, let’s say five to 10% of the group.

But I always wondered what if you collect the group of 30 veterans? Those are people that suffer greatly and also cause a lot of suffering. There are people that are trained killers. Have you observed? Maybe my personal fear would be. Maybe violence coming up. Have you seen that come up?

Matt Zemon: So I’ve never sat in a group of that size of 30 and certainly not a group of that size of all veterans. I think my concern would be probably what you’re echoing here. Even in a group of maybe eight. It still takes a lot of energy in the room to manage that. So if you have two maestros or Tita and you have a few sitters I just can’t imagine what you would need from a staff ratio to be prepared for if that goes sideways with that many people.

I’ve certainly heard stories of of veterans getting. Emotionally discharging and physically emotionally discharging and causing pain to a facilitator. So I think just watching that ratio of a staff to participant would probably be just have extra important when it comes to veterans, to soldiers, the first responders, so people who use their bodies regularly and might have a more likely to have a visceral response.

That being said, I didn’t see, and then the group that I was in for three nights there, there was none of that I was at all concerned about. And I think the majority of their retreats and ceremonies, there’s not a lot of that. And we know we, we don’t work for the majority. We work for the minority where we have to be prepared for that exception.

And yeah, I think I overstaff.

Sam Believ: Yeah, so far it seems that people from whom you expect the violence are the people that cause the least violence. And I’ve been heard the most actually by very skinny, small female participants with very sharp nails when you have to hold them down and they scratch you and things like that.

But it’s really a rare thing. It’s, you can only. It only happens when you work with thousands of people. But yeah, for example our average ceremony is about 25 people and our team is 12 people. But let’s say, I was thinking, I was talking to one UFCI actually interviewed one ex UFC champion and we were we were going to organize this year a retreat for UFC people.

And that’s even more dangerous ’cause they specifically, know how to fight. Hand to hand. Yeah, that’s a, that’s an interesting the only way to find out is to experiment. I I need to, we have a gym here at the retreat, so I’m gonna tell my facilitators to start working out more often.

Matt Zemon: I love the the UFC, so we we might have a mutual friend in the UFC world.

Sam Believ: You don’t recall.

Matt Zemon: Yeah, exactly. Great guy. Do, doing a lot of work. It’s interesting that intersection of, okay, so now these are young physical men and women who’ve lost their identity and they were champions and then they just can’t continue.

So they have loss of a profession, loss of an identity, may potentially traumatic brain injury as they’re coming down to these ceremonies and it’s fascinating to, to see the power of Ayahuasca and other psychedelics in helping them remember who they are and and find a new path forward.

Sam Believ: Yeah, it’s very similar to veterans as well, especially when they go back home from the war. Everything they’ve been trained for, all of a sudden they cannot do. And they people they supposed to protect, they don’t really care that much. And, yeah, it’s a d it’s a difficult job and a different difficult recovery.

But I also like what you said about people experiencing PTSD, the veterans having, suffering very similarly to people that never went to war. And also then we have this stigma where people assume that because they are not war veterans and they’ve just been, hurt by their family, then they cannot really use this title of PTSD.

So I don’t know if you have anything to say

Matt Zemon: about that. I have a lot to say about that. I think comparison is the death of happiness period. So whether I’m comparing my trauma to your trauma my experiences to your experiences, my place in the world to yours, that’s that none of that’s gonna lead to happiness.

I think people who listen to these podcasts. And have not yet participated, are looking for permission. And my question back to them is you’re here, you’re on the path. So why, what are you listening for that you haven’t heard already that’s making you think that this medicine is okay for you?

Why isn’t this medicine okay for you? So yes, all of us have different life experiences that shape us. All of us are worthy of love, of giving love and receiving love in abundance. And this medicine doesn’t change who we are. It helps us remember who we already are. So it doesn’t matter how you got to here, this tool might be effective for helping us to bring the experiences of the past up close so we can discover it, we can then transform it.

Then we can make more meaning of the present and the future.

Sam Believ: Well said Matt. So what are you li what are you waiting for? Just to pause this podcast and go book a retreat. Go book a retreat. I’ll see you next month. That’s right. It’s

Matt Zemon: head on down to Columbia, everybody. Here we go.

Sam Believ: Yeah. I know you have a book titled Psychedelics are for Everyone.

That’s very interesting because I’ve been telling something very similar, but I, what I say is Ayahuasca is. Almost for everyone. So talk to us about the title and the pushback you receive from having a title like this.

Matt Zemon: Yeah, so I, I do get pushback on this. I didn’t ever mean that psychedelics were for everyone to take.

There are definitely people who have c certain contraindications or have family history where taking a psychedelic is not safe for them. And that being said, I believe they’re good for society. So whether, so when people read these books, my hope is that maybe they’re reading it for themselves so that they can decide whether they want to participate in a psychedelic experience or not.

Maybe they’re reading it to have a better understanding of a friend or a family member who might use this medicine, this ancient medicine is this tool to help their process. Maybe they’re just doing it to understand better how to vote in the next election. Overall psychedelics in my experience, have been, are good for society.

They’re good for us as individuals and more specifically, it’s good for me. And I’m trying to speak from the eye more and more these days. So that’s where the yeah. In my experience, psychedelics have been incredibly powerful. Maybe a better father, better husband, better friend, better brother.

Yeah, it’s changed my life.

Sam Believ: That’s great to hear. I agree with you. I’m also in a sort of optimist camp and I’ve seen personally more than 2000 people go through our doors. And obviously I don’t talk about psychedelics in general ’cause I am mostly. Aware of the Ayahuasca work, but it seems to be amazingly productive 99% of times.

And the only 1% is when you’re extremely sick. Like we had to send people home where they came with their whites of their eye being yellow because they have liver failure. And we’re like, we’re not gonna give you ayahuasca when you’re, that that hurt. Or also, certain. Mental health conditions are taking certain medications, but apart from that, the only time it’s not productive is when you’re resisting the actual experience and then you don’t get anything from it.

But we do our best to train people to not resist.

Matt Zemon: And that’s something surrendering is such an important part of the process. I think what I also like people, what I talk about a lot, Sam, I don’t know if you know the similar language, is that psychedelics aren’t a cure for anything. They’re catalysts, they are things that we do periodically to help connect with source or spirit or God or whatever you wanna call it.

They are a tool to connect with community, to remember that we are not alone in this world and that we are supported by this world. They help put our biologically put us into a position where we can unpack these things from the past or look at the present with clearer eyes. But then we start the practice.

We take these insights and awarenesses and awakenings, and we move them into the everyday life. So they don’t, it’s not like our western idea of medicine. We’re gonna take a pill and it’s gonna cure us. No. It will help give us insights and awakenings and awarenesses that then we can choose to bring into our everyday experience or not.

But that’s the practice, that’s the integration, that’s what most of life is.

Sam Believ: Yeah. You gotta meet Alaska halfway and doesn’t do all the work for you, but it does definitely open the door for you, but then you have to walk through it. You talk about the practice, tell us more. Just go in depth. Somebody just did AYA escort, they did some ceremony of some psychedelic.

What should they do next?

Matt Zemon: Now it’s Camille. Let’s go back to the veterans. And part of why I put this the Veterans Guide to psychedelics together again with Heroic Hearts Project. Is to give activities for people to do following a a psychedelic journey. So in this case, we put four weeks of activities where you’re unpacking you’re spending time thinking about the new sensations, spending time thinking about the future.

There’s also a 30 day gratitude journal where just each day while our minds are experiencing more neuroplasticity. We’re able to learn rapidly that we just help train it for the positive. So those are all I don’t know, easy activities to do for the first day, 30 days following ceremony.

The bigger activity, the bigger thing is how do we then find a consciousness community or some community where we can do our individual work together, where I can remind you that you are worthy, you are loved, you are enough, and you can do the same thing for me, and we can. Continue to practice and keep in the front of our minds the things we learned while we were on the Ayahuasca or whatever psychedelic we’re using journey.

I think in my experience, those that have found community following ceremony or those who can see the longer benefits of the medicine and the ability to move in the everyday world with that awareness at the medicine that they saw, certainly saw in ceremony. How do they keep it alive in them?

And that’s where I think community is so important. And that’s just something that the, our western northwestern society isn’t really equipped for. So how do we borrow what all of our grandparents and indigenous brothers and sisters knew of the importance of community? How do we Remi do that for ourselves?

Sam Believ: I wanna remind you something, Matt. You are worthy and you are loved.

Matt Zemon: I appreciate that, Sam. Thank you.

Sam Believ: And yeah, we observe it all the time. I like to say the best way to make friends as an adult is to come to an Iowa School retreat because people bond so quickly. And if I could throw a number out there, I would say maybe half of the healing comes from the community itself.

Just the interaction and mutual support. I’m just wondering for someone who maybe doesn’t want to drink ayahuasca, like how could people replicate that? Because all it takes is a fire, couple chairs around it. And avoiding talking about politics and religion and just trying to like just be.

It’s such a simple thing, but like why don’t we have, why don’t we have more of that in the west? How do do you have any, have you observed any cool communities or any cool ideas maybe people can pursue?

Matt Zemon: Yeah, I mean I think there’s a lot of ways up the mountain, so some people will choose and to use Ayahuasca as a tool.

But then again, what do they do for all those days? They’re not using ayahuasca. And I love what you said. You talked about being in nature. You talked about being around a fire. You talked about being in community. You talked about sharing stories, you talked about keeping to topics where, that aren’t politically charged or that people won’t and that people will not stop listening.

And I think that’s, yeah, that’s important. I’m, what’s coming forward for me is, all of these mystic traditions where it’s not about what is read or described or the words used to talk about an experience, it’s the feeling of being connected, the feeling of connecting to. This energy to nature, to each other.

How do we keep that alive in everyday life? So for some of us, it’s gonna look like running. For others, it’s gonna look like just joining any group. It can go, bowling, go. It doesn’t make a difference. Do something in community where where we can remind each other that we’re not alone. And then carving out time of the day too.

Watch our own thoughts to re to be aware that I am not my thoughts are just passing through. And then maybe just a time for gratitude to reflect on, wow, how lucky are am I to be alive, period. To be alive now when there’s never been a more housing, more food, lower cost of education, of knowledge, I should say not of none of college.

In every metric, the world’s a better place. It, and it can be messed up in so many ways, but in so many other ways as from 500 years ago. There’s a lot of good things happening now. So do I allocate some time for gratitude, just like I did in ceremony. And ceremony can be hard, it can be sad, it can be beautiful, and it can be all in the same messy six hours.

How do I assign some day, some part of my day to just say thanks and so that life is not all transactional. There’s a devotional aspect of life.

Sam Believ: Yeah, gratitude is really important. Another thing on a note of community, obviously the closest community we all have is is a family. I know you brought your son what he wants to, to a retreat.

Why did you do and also what do you think are, is, can be the role of those plaid medicines and in, in the, in our families.

Matt Zemon: I love that. I love I love intergenerational ceremonies where we have a 80-year-old mom, 50 something year old dad and 27-year-old son, all in the same room. Those are so beautiful where healing is going up and down the ladder and around.

I love the use of medicine and in the life work I’ve seen. Just incredible healing, both for the person who’s in the active state of dying and for the loved ones bearing witness. Going back to my son in this case, he had asked to come to a retreat and I asked, did you, do you wanna do psychedelics?

He said, no, I just wanna see what you’re up to. So he came and he was a helper and he helped people with a bathroom and blankets and water bottles. And and we had this really beautiful moment where. I was in a garden area and I opened my eyes and he was right in front of me and I was able to hug him and to really feel him and vice versa and say to him, look, my, my dad died when I was 19 and I, no one gave me a guide to being a parent.

And I just need you to know that I’m doing the best that I know how to do and that I love you so much. And we held each other for a little bit longer, and then he went on to go help some more people. And I continued on my journey and it was such a beautiful, moment in our relationship. So grateful to have had that opportunity with him.

Yeah, I think having, I think the use of today, I wish, I don’t wish I’m watching more and more of them take, choose to use entheogen or psychedelics as they coming of age for themselves. And I think we as parents can either let them do it on their own, which they’re doing anyhow. Or we can take an active role and we can talk to them about this, we can invite them, we can plan a trip down to Columbia as a father, son, mother, daughter, family and we can take an active role in these experiences.

Which I think then leads to all sorts of conversations that for any family, we all have ’em. We all have the, I, my wife and I joke here that I think everything we say at home is just an, it’s just an excuse to say, I love you. Did you do the dishes? I love you. What are we having for dinner?

I love you. What are we gonna do tonight? I love you. It’s just nonsense words to try to get across that feeling. Choosing to do psychedelics as a family is a way to really bring that emotion into everybody and to find new language and to communicate in a very different way.

Sam Believ: Yeah, we had entire families of five people participating together, and honestly I felt jealous.

I would love to have this ’cause I managed to bring. My mom, my brother, and my sister plus me together. So it’s except for my dad, so missing one very important part from which a lot of the trauma came from. So having the entire family that’s I’ve observed it’s extremely healing.

And I love the idea of using those ancient traditions as a rite of passage. Because we just don’t have it anymore. We used to be a thing in every culture and now we don’t have one, so might as well borrow this one. And it’s, it is beautiful. It is meaningful. It’s also full of challenges that kind of seems what the right of passage generally entails.

So yeah, I’m gonna, I’m gonna use it with with my kids perhaps. So I’ve I have three, three kids and, when you describe, the feeling you felt with your son in this ceremony, it’s I love my kids a lot, but it’s life happens and you’re stressed and this and that. It’s really hard to be like hundred hundred percent focused on one emotion, but let’s say, because like my house is 30 meters away from the moloca from the ceremony space and I.

I drink occasionally as well. So I come from the moloca after the ceremony and I see my son or my daughter on the bed sleeping. And it’s just you just have so much love. You can’t, it’s a really great way to connect with them. So Sam, I love that from the

Matt Zemon: perspective of the father to the child.

And I love that as a coming of age. We were just talking about, and I think I’m gonna add one more thing to this discussion for kids. Is we need our, this next generation to be creative, to be loving, to realize that we’re connected and to help find solutions for all of us in this future, in these tools.

They break down the stereotypes, they break down the stories. And I believe it’s the, it’s critical. To figure out how we’re gonna deal with climate regardless of how it’s caused, it doesn’t matter. How are we gonna deal with climate change period, climate migration, period? How are we gonna deal with the change in the political landscapes, good or bad, doesn’t make a difference.

It’s change is happening. What is this generation gonna do with the cost of housing? They’re gonna have to think about. Different ways to organize community because they can’t live in the same places that many of us lived in because everything of a value is spoken for and expensive. So what are they gonna do?

How do they organize? They’re not participating in in churches or synagogues like former generations. So what are they gonna do for community? And what are they gonna do with ai? Taking so many of the jobs. So how do they use their hands again? How do they find their own power? How do they find their own way to make a mark in this world, in this human experience and these medicines?

By removing the stories, by reminding them that you’re powerful right now and you’re worthy right now. So what do you wanna do with that power? I think is just really healthy for them.

Sam Believ: Yeah. The AI is something I think about a lot because I have three very young kids, and I think conventional education or what?

Conventional education, the common professions, doctor, engineer, lawyer, all those things are very ai, not proof. So of course I don’t think if if you become a showman that’s hard to be replaced by ai right? Or working with people. But, it’s a tricky one to solve. Like you, there’s very few things that are protected from what AI can do.

So I don’t know, maybe that, that’s off topic. Not,

Matt Zemon: I don’t think it’s off topic, Sam. ’cause you’re you, and actually you just made a joke. That is, it’s something I think about, which is the respect. For the indigenous wisdom keepers and the way they’ve held these medicines and how ceremony is run.

And you said you can’t put AI as a shaman? Absolutely not. But there are absolutely groups who believe you can mail order psychedelics and that you can have a virtual AI guardian. And they’re pushing those, that philosophy in different directions. And I’m all for access. And I think there is a there is a way potentially to do some of these things, mail order, but many of them you cannot.

And the, when we’re talking about large dose psychedelics, having someone who knows all the things that could come up and can work with all those things is. Is essential. So it’s, we’re making a joke, but I think modern pharmacology is pushing and psychology is pushing what can happen with psychedelics without any, without as much respect for the indigenous or ceremonial processes as I would like to see at this point.

Sam Believ: Yeah definitely. No, you cannot replace a shaman. With ai, but I’m sure they will try, or at least they might replace the, they might try to replace the thing that appears to be a shaman, because you can, that’s a very off far off speculation, but let’s say you can make a robot that looks like a shaman and they can serve you a cup.

Maybe even sing an I or a medicine song, but it does not mean they can replicate the underlying spiritual process. But that’s something I talk to people when they come and they think they see a shaman and they, he serves them a cop, and then he sings some songs and he just sits there.

It’s that’s the easiest job ever, because like they don’t understand, the underlying. Spiritual stuff. That’s the heavy lifting the shamans do. Let’s talk about ceremony. Talk about your own experiences. Like what are some of the most challenging ceremonies you had?

Mushrooms or ayahuasca? Whatever comes to mind.

Matt Zemon: For me personally or for things I’ve seen in the room? Both. It can be both. What’s coming up? I had an experience with with Ayahuasca actually, that I felt so vulnerable. Like I had this, I felt like I was in I had actually felt like I had uncovered a secret religion. And then there’s this power and control dynamic and that they were.

Potentially gonna take all my money and that I was at risk. And what was interesting in that one for me is that the two things happened. One, my, my wife came really prevalent in my psyche and that she was gonna help keep me safe. But then the Icarus of the, in this case was Shabo healers came and said no.

You’ve picked a, you have picked a safe. Healing place and that these Zs and this tradition, this lineage is gonna keep you safe and that we’re not gonna take advantage and we’re not gonna take all your money and you’re gonna be fine and go back in and do the work. And having that whole conversation in that other plane was just incredible.

But I just need the level of vulnerability. Was really scary in different ways. I’ve had death experience, but also I’ve had lots of those things. But this vulnerability was it just got me I have loved the dying, turning into worm food is what I say. Experiences where where there’s that whole emotional rollercoaster of oh wow, if I’ve crossed over and, then followed by the moment of realization that I’m still breathing and I’m still alive. And that gratitude that floods floods me is so incredibly beautiful. It’s really hard to find the words for that that, wow, how lucky am I to be able to still be breathing on this planet? And there’s work to be done.

And how lucky am I, I think the things in the room as I’ve, I mean you, so you’ve worked with thousands of people. I’ve I’m pushing almost a thousand at this point. I think I keep learning that it’s unexpected. The potentially the harder it looks at a person is going through it, it’s sometimes so beautiful.

It’s just what they needed. More often than not, it’s just what they needed. Maybe always it’s just what they needed. And reminding myself that I don’t know what’s going on at the inside. I don’t know the 50 years of experience that brought them here. And my job is to send love and know that we’re all doing this together.

And my learning, healing and growing is their learning and their learning healing. Growing is mine. And we do this individual work in community. And just to trust that if we are doing our jobs right on the front end with medical screening and preparing an informed consent, and then they have resources on the back end for whether it’s therapists or coaches or community and integration process, that whatever’s happening during the ceremony is gonna be perfectly fine.

It just might look funny to me, but that’s what they needed for them. What have you seen? What’s been your, what comes to mind with that question for you?

Sam Believ: First of all, what you’re saying about the harder the experience the better in a way that sometimes I even differently, sometimes I’m in the ceremony and I look around and it seems like nothing is happening, and I’m like there’ll be a lot of people next day complaining about.

Not connecting. And that’s, it’s not what they expect. Fighting with expectation is the mess, the biggest battle when running an hour retreat. But then next day they all come out with this amazing stories and it’s just so profound. But you could not see what happens in internally. And another thing that I figured been learning is that everything that happens at an Ayahuasca retreat.

Be it ceremony or in between, the ceremony is a part of it and not all of it is necessarily positive. So I remember in the very early years of facilitating I was always fighting and being very emotionally invested to make sure that everyone is always feeling positive and happy. And I was guiding in such a way to avoid, friction and then I realized like those bad emotions or sometimes somebody.

Offend somebody, they trigger a lot of healing down the line. So the kinda like unpredictability of that healing and just accepting that no matter how much, you don’t really know. But regarding, deep experiences. I’ve seen it all. I’ve been slapped, I’ve been scratched, I’ve been spit at, I’ve been puked at I have a really great team right now.

And a very big and very loving team. So I’m not in every ceremony anymore. I just can’t, there’s too much work I need to do outside of it, but it’s a beautiful mess, the ceremony. It’s that’s how I could describe it.

Matt Zemon: I like that. And I love the the other thing coming forward for me as you’re speaking is I realize.

And I really, and I, it’s important to me that the people I participate in ceremony know this. No matter who is the facilitator, nobody did anything for you. So it’s not my job or their job to help you have a breakthrough. Our job is to create a container, to create a space, to create a, an area where you can do your work deeply.

And if you’re able to surrender to the medicine and you have whatever breakthrough you have, you did that. And if you didn’t have that, you didn’t do that. But it has nothing. It’s not our job. And we should get no credit or no blame for that portion of it keeping you safe. That is a hundred percent what our role is.

And then making sure this is as risk reduced as possible for you.

Sam Believ: Yeah, for certain job is difficult in that way because if you don’t thread lightly and if you try to make it about yourself. Then you can, I’ve had unfortunately experiences with some facilitators in the early day that they wanted to be there in the moment of breakthrough, as if a chick, newborn chick imprinting on the mother, the person coming through this breakthrough experience would imprint on them make their breakthrough about them as if wow, if not for you, I would never have this.

I quickly learned to fire those people to make sure there, there’s a lot of ego in this space. There’s a lot of people that wanted to be about them, but at the same time, we have to be available, but also not too much because some people latch to you like a like a live boy and they want you to go through their experience and it’s like you need to like, let them fly. Once again, a bird analogy, but throw them out of the nest so they learn how to fly themselves. Yeah it’s very interesting and there’s never, I know a fair much about the ceremony, but that there’s no limit to learning. So there’s this, once you grasp a little bit about healing and maybe go through your own healing journey.

Not that it’s ever over. Then there’s this unlimited spiritual exploration. That’s what fascinates me about the space of psychedelics. There’s you cannot ever deplete this. It’s like that’s one thing that, you can be into cars or you can be into any given topic or women or whatever.

There’s just one thing that will never lose. It’s shy in a way that there will always be something, and I think that’s the space of spirituality slash psychedelics. So I don’t know if you have any thoughts on that.

Matt Zemon: Yeah, I mean it’s, I struggle with this language because people say in the psychedelic space and Sure.

Yeah. I work with Inogen regularly. I talk with medical professionals and how they can incorporate ceremonial best practices. Sure, I’m in the psychedelic space, but the reality is. Just like everybody, I’m a spiritual peer. I’m a person having my own existence and I’m in the I’d say I’m more in the spiritual space using Entheogen as a tool from time to time.

Now it’s easy to lead with psychedelics ’cause that breaks the ice, that, that leads to the conversation. And in a place where people are looking and have so many questions because of our 50 years of prohibition, it’s nice to be able to offer, solid information on how to reduce risk, how to pay attention to source, and to set, and to setting and how they can access psychedelics, whether it’s in a medical model, a ceremonial model, or a decriminalization model or retreat model.

But I see myself really much more in the, just in the human space than the psychedelic space.

Sam Believ: Yeah. This is, yeah, this is how I see it as well. I think there is also, everything is spiritual in the end. There’s the being born as a spiritual process and I’ve interviewed people that had near death experience that was very similar to an ayahuasca ceremony.

So I know that being born, giving birth, ’cause my wife described that as well, and dying is all a spiritual process and it’s just this little piece in between. That is not spiritual. I mean it is, but we are sorta oblivious to it.

Matt Zemon: Oh, spiritual amnesia that we have in our culture and that our culture helps us continue and that we have a chance to break through it with these tools.

Sam Believ: Talking about spirituality, what do you think is the role of spirituality in healing? ’cause you talk about PTSD addiction, depression, healing with plant medicines. What is the role of SP spirituality in it?

Matt Zemon: I think so much of what we do in our culture is I want the world to change how it addresses me, how it thinks about me so that I can be safe.

So that I can be whole. There’s all the stuff about I me. When it comes to modern psychology, and I think this plant medicine path reminds us, reminds me that we are all connected. We may look like different waves, but we’re part of the same ocean. And with that understanding, then certainly the feelings of loneliness can go away.

With that understanding the idea of where and how many ways am I supported can come through and can come clear. And then when I realized that all of us are walking this together, that okay, there’s be things that are harder for me and easier for them and vice versa, but I can support others as well as supporting myself and while supporting myself.

I think a lot of, for many people. Things, depression, anxiety lifts. I think the planned medicine can break the repetitive behavior that has led to choices that might not be in alignment, whether that’s eating, smoking, drinking any type of addiction. Could be OCD, can be, anything with repetitive thinking patterns that can, it can help break.

So you put those things together and you now say, okay, what spirituality? Spirituality is, now I’m remember that I’m connected to something bigger. I’m a spiritual creature. Having a human experience. Okay, that sounds, that’s pretty powerful. Okay. Now that I know that, can I bring that understanding into every day?

And if I can, then it’s much easier for me to be grateful every day. To look at things that happen is not happening to me, but happening for me. And then that helps shift the whole perspective. Okay I’m not loving this conversation with so and what are they here to teach me? Maybe I have to set a different boundary.

Maybe I have to work on my communication. Maybe I’ve, I’m allowing this, my people pleasing skills. Maybe I’m doing treating them like I did my father or my mother. So I think spirituality, it come it’s everything. When it comes it’s a core part of this. Was that, did that make sense? I feel like I, I rambled a little bit there.

Sam Believ: No, I think it makes sense. Just like zooming out from your own problems, be it through a spiritual lens. I’m just a leaf on a tree makes things a little less overwhelming, so that definitely helps. So where do you see the future of psychedelics and, what are the risks on that, in that future that does involve entheogen?

Matt Zemon: So I think we’re gonna see a future of abundance with psychedelics. And I mean that from every angle. I think we’re gonna continue to see. The science world, finding ways to work with these tools and the medicalization, let’s call it that. So people, some people who choose to, will access more and more psychedelics with a framework of diagnosis.

Medicine and improvement, I think we’re gonna see more of the religious freedom continue to, we already have, I don’t know, a few hundred, maybe a thousand psychedelic churches in America. We already have organizations like your working with healers in different countries. I think they’re gonna be people who say, I don’t wanna be diagnosed, I just want to connect with a source.

I just want to heal using, in many cases, nature. And it is a religious process for me and it should be protected as a religious freedom. So I think we’re gonna see more of that. We had our fourth church in Ayahuasca church in Arizona get a federal exemption. This summer, so Church of Eagle and Condor.

It’s really exciting. I think we’re gonna continue to see the Decrim nature movement move around our country. We’ve seen city after city decriminalizing psychedelics. Part of that is that they believe that no adult should tell another adult that they can’t put nature in their body. Part of it’s access.

The medical model’s expensive. And can we, do we really wanna prosecute? Someone who has a cancer diagnosis for growing mushrooms that might alleviate the stress and anxiety that person’s feeling. So I get both of those things. And then and then I think we’ll continue to see retreats offering kind of turnkey packages for people on.

Okay let’s kickstart this in with a week of inexperience with a bunch of really trained, facilitators in a place that’s set up specifically for this type of work. And I think that’s exciting. And then I guess the last thing I’ll say is we’re seeing groups like there, there’s LA for Christians and psychedelics, there’s Sheva for Jews and psychedelics.

I think there’s a Muslim one being created that are going to work regardless of where the person does their ceremony. It’s when they come back, can they find some support in whatever faith tradition they, they’re coming from. And I think we’re gonna see more of that in the future. So lots of really promising things in the world of psychedelics.

Sam Believ: Yeah. You talk about churches and you talked about, that young people don’t really go to churches anymore. And I would definitely not want to associate myself with any like religion or church, but in a way. A community like this like LA Wire the retreat we have, there’s, there’s a lot of people have been through here and they, even though they left and they do still feel connected and of course we can’t have them all here physically, but, maybe digitally, like we’re working on building a, an online community, I think it can, so it can.

Serve that function. Not from religious point of view, but from the point of view of like community and support you can get. So that’s also, exciting for the future ’cause we can have more of those digital spaces that are worldwide. Yeah, I think that’s that’s all I wanted to ask you.

If there’s, there’s anything else you wanna talk about,

Matt Zemon: Sam? I appreciate the intention and attention you give to the work you do. You’re taking people their trust and their they’re bringing a lot to your programs and you’re doing everything that you know how to do to support them in their process and your learning as you go, as we all are.

And it’s. It is a process, it’s an evolution. We’re all human, we’re all doing this, but all of us working in this space are relatively new to this, regardless of whether it’s 10 years or 40 years, it’s still relatively new. Yeah. So I, again, I appreciate you having me on. I appreciate you. We covering more than just ayahuasca on this journey today.

Yeah, just grateful for you. Thank you.

Sam Believ: Thank you Matt. And thank you for the information you’re creating and the books you’re writing. I’m sure people that listen or read those books, they will they’ll be better off than the ones that didn’t. On that note, working like any which one of your books should our listeners.

Matt Zemon: I think by the time this comes out, the beginner’s guide to psychedelics will be out. So that’s a new book. It has a lot of information for how people can just make an informed decision about what type of psychedelic do they wanna do and what type of program are they looking for. And then it takes ’em through a preparation journey and integration process.

So if I was to pick one book and I’m. Member of just normal society, start with the Beginner’s Guide, and if you’re a veteran, start with the Veterans Guide. Amazon will have both when you’re listening to this. And then my website is matt zeman.com. I’m active on LinkedIn and Instagram. If you have questions, I absolutely will respond.

Yeah, don’t hesitate to reach out. So

Sam Believ: when does your book come out? The new one, the Beginner’s Guide.

Matt Zemon: The Beginner’s Guide is next month, just a few

Sam Believ: weeks. Cool. So I think this episode will be out in about three weeks from now. So yes, check out the book guys. And yeah, Matt, thank you so much for coming on.

It was a pleasure and I enjoyed our conversation.

Matt Zemon: Sam, thanks so much. I appreciate it.

Sam Believ: Guys, you were listening to I Ask Podcast as always, we do the whole assembly and I will see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you’d like to support us and psychedelic Renaissance at large.

Please follow us and leave us a like wherever it is you’re listening. Share this episode with someone who will benefit from this information. Nothing in this podcast is intended as medical advice, and it is for educational and entertainment purposes only. This episode is sponsored by Aira Ayahuasca. At Laira, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity.

Laira, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you.