Trauma and psychedelics. Ayahuasca Podcast with Steve Thayer

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with Steve Thayer, PhD, a clinical psychologist specializing in psychedelic-assisted therapy, particularly with ketamine. Steve is the clinical director for psychotherapy and training at Numinus and co-hosts the Psychedelic Therapy Frontiers podcast.

We touch upon topics like:

Steve’s journey into mental health and psychedelics (00:57)

Ketamine-assisted therapy and its benefits (03:18)

Spirituality and intuition in personal growth (05:56)

Challenges faced by first responders and veterans (13:19)

Psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy vs. traditional therapy (16:52)

Accelerating the therapeutic process with psychedelics (18:25)

Psychological flexibility and the impact of psychedelics (19:24)

The role of facilitators in ensuring safe psychedelic experiences (50:42)

The importance of training and self-awareness for facilitators (51:12)

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats, go to http://www.lawayra.com.
Find more about Steve Thayer at http://www.drstevethayer.com or on Instagram @drstevethayer.

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:02)

Hi guys and welcome to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always with you the host Sam Biliyev. Today I’m having a conversation with Steve Thayer, PhD. ⁓ He’s a clinical psychologist specializing in psychedelic assisted therapy, particularly using ketamine. After serving in US Air Force, he transitioned to working with psychedelics to treat conditions like PTSD and depression. He is the clinical director for psychotherapy and training at Numinous.

Sam Believ (00:30)

and he also co -hosts the Psychedelic Therapy Frontiers podcast. Steve, welcome to the show.

Steve Thayer (00:37)

Thanks, Sam. Really appreciate inviting me on.

Sam Believ (00:40)

⁓ Yeah, it’s a pleasure having you on Steve. Before we kind of like start going deep, tell us a little bit about how did you come, you know, how did your life story bring you into mental health and then specifically psychedelics?

Steve Thayer (00:57)

Yeah. Well, you know, as a young boy, I struggled with my own mental health, experienced depressed moods and was pretty anxious. ⁓ in retrospect, I think I had a little bit of OCD and so, ⁓ it got me really curious about the human mind, the human condition. Why was it that I was struggling in the ways that I was, especially because I had a really actually pretty idyllic upbringing, ⁓ great parents, great family, great community.

Steve Thayer (01:24)

And so as I aged and got into, you later in high school and into college, I got really interested in philosophy. And then my dad sort of teased me like, you know, you’re not going to make any money and just be able to support a family as a philosophy major. And so I thought, well, why don’t I get into psychology? That seemed like applied philosophy to me. So you got a bachelor’s degree in psychology, had a knack for listening. I was deeply curious about others and

Steve Thayer (01:50)

My own struggle had made me fairly compassionate about the struggle of others. So I thought, you know, why don’t I take all the things that I’m learning and really apply it and be helpful. So then I got into a clinical psychology PhD program and yeah, ⁓ I became a clinical psychologist. And then I ⁓ joined the military when I got, when I, when I finished my training as a clinical psychologist, you, the capstone to that training as an internship or kind of like a doctor’s residency. And I did mine with the military.

Steve Thayer (02:20)

And in order to do that, I had to join the military. So I came in as a commissioned officer and was in the military for four years. And in the military, I really got an appreciation for the ways in which people suffer, especially in response to combat trauma, but also a little disillusioned by what we could do to help these folks. I mean, we were using the kinds of therapies and treatments that were considered best practices based on the science and we were being helpful, but ⁓ I was just dissatisfied with, with,

Steve Thayer (02:50)

how unhelpful we were also being. So when I got out of the military, I was really looking for what’s the next frontier? What’s the cutting edge? What’s the tip of the spear? And that’s when I discovered ketamine. I was fortunate enough there was a local ketamine clinic where I ended up here in Utah. So I started working with them and had a few ketamine treatments myself because I was struggling with some depressed mood. And the first few treatments were a little underwhelming, to be honest.

Steve Thayer (03:18)

They were particularly effective for me. But then one really was what a lot of people describe as a psychedelic experience. know, there’s a little bit of a debate about whether or not ketamine should be included under that broad umbrella of psychedelic, but consciousness altering and mind manifesting for sure. And that really piqued my curiosity. So started really studying, ⁓ Michael Pollan’s book, like many people, which got me appraised on the history of psychedelics that I wasn’t really familiar with.

Steve Thayer (03:47)

Long story short, got to, become part of a company called Nova Mind that was trying to be one of those, you know, bigger companies in the psychedelic medicine space, doing teaching training for their therapists there on how to do ketamine assisted therapy specifically. but also started to get involved in clinical trials. Nova Mind got acquired by the company that I’m now a part of, Numinous. And, ⁓ the, the mission is threefold. You know, we, we provide mental health care, full spectrum mental health care.

Steve Thayer (04:16)

including ketamine assisted therapy. We teach and train other therapists on how to do psychedelic assisted therapy through our certification program. We also continue to do psychedelic clinical trials. you know, our sites ⁓ do a lot of clinical trials. I’ve gotten to do clinical trials on psilocybin for treatment resistant depression and major depressive disorder, I’ve had the opportunity to work with LSD for generalized anxiety disorder, ketamine.

Steve Thayer (04:44)

We’ve got studies on five MEO DMT. We just started a study on an MDMA analog. So a drug similar to MDMA. We got one coming up potentially for NNDMT. So just lots of really cool opportunities to work with the medicine. then finally I’ll say I had some other experiences with other psychedelics that were transformative and just really wanted to find a way to bring those experiences to people who are really struggling as a therapist.

Steve Thayer (05:13)

Do more. Do more than I had been able to do for people in the past.

Sam Believ (05:19)

Thank you, Steve. Thank you for sharing your story. ⁓ The ⁓ question that comes to me is, for example, me myself as previously an engineer in offshore oil and gas and now kind of running in the Ayahuasca retreat. It doesn’t seem obvious, you know, the transition from military to now psychedelics. And in my own journey, I kind of observed, you know, synchronicities and, you know, when it comes to making decisions, there seems to be a push. Have you ever noticed anything? ⁓

Sam Believ (05:49)

let’s say some form of guidance, like in a way you ⁓ became ⁓ who you became.

Steve Thayer (05:56)

Hmm. That’s a really insightful question, Sam, because you know, I grew up in a, ⁓ religious framework. I was raised in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints, often called the Mormons. And, as a young person, I was very spiritual for lack of a better term. Like I was trying to find and follow the messages that I thought were coming from God. And then.

Steve Thayer (06:23)

As a young adult, I left that religion and that transition was very difficult for me because I rudderless. Like I didn’t have wind in my sails. didn’t know exactly where to go. ⁓ and like so many people who go through that transition, I, I, there was a period of time where I felt pretty nihilistic, ⁓ pretty hopeless, but I started to, to play around with following intuition, right? The, God within the truth in my gut.

Steve Thayer (06:52)

And instead of outsourcing guidance to some deity who I had to guess what they wanted for me, trying to follow the intuition that I felt. Whereas generally speaking, I’m a pretty cerebral guy. try to solve problems and think my way through issues. was trying to get in touch with what I felt inside. And that feeling was never more potent or clear than when I was using a psychedelic medicine.

Steve Thayer (07:22)

And the first time I experienced psilocybin, was like, ⁓ this is mindfulness, right? This is connection to source, to spirit, to the universe, to God, whatever. And I don’t have to understand it completely, right? That the divine is something that you can experience, but maybe never fully comprehend. And that’s okay. So finding safety in ambiguity was something I thought I would never find. And psychedelics have helped me approach that safety. So

Steve Thayer (07:50)

You know, in a roundabout way, I’m trying to answer your question by saying, felt like by following my gut, was guided. just try to follow my curiosity. And you know, I, I growing up, I had never altered my consciousness at all. Never consumed alcohol, never consumed coffee or tea, you know, really never taken anything but, but Tylenol ⁓ for physical pain. And then the first time I altered my consciousness is with psychedelics.

Steve Thayer (08:16)

So it was pretty profound and I feel like I’m kind of thinking in real time, this great question is having me reflect. I think I was guided and I don’t know how else to describe that. don’t pretend to know exactly how it happened, following, trying to get familiar with and follow my intuition was part of it for sure.

Sam Believ (08:34)

Thank you, Steve. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense because ⁓ it’s really hard to explain. ⁓ But there seems to be this kind of thing where like a lot of people almost like scooped from all kinds of walks of life and just kind of their direction is being altered. I don’t know. I don’t really believe much in it myself still. I’m still trying to make sense of it. But yeah, in my own journey, it’s just so unpredictable the way I ended up ⁓ doing things I ended up doing and yeah, the inner guidance and also just

Sam Believ (09:04)

those synchronicities. You mentioned that you come up, ⁓ you were part of Mormon Church and it’s like what I’ve been noticing, and we get a lot of people from US with specifically quite a big representation, people from Utah and there’s a lot of that sort of religious trauma, I guess, and just people really seeking that. So I don’t know if you, ⁓ what is, Utah seems to be

Sam Believ (09:33)

very special place and now also for psychedelics. I don’t know if you can say anything about that, just out of curiosity.

Steve Thayer (09:42)

Yeah. think, ⁓ you know, I think this is true of a lot of so -called high demand religions, but I’ll speak from like an LDS or Mormon perspective specifically that, ⁓ when you’re part of that church and you believe in that doctrine, you’re sort of all in and, there’s a Mormonism has very mystical origin. And so there’s, there’s a tolerance for the mystical.

Steve Thayer (10:12)

And when people struggle with their faith or maybe even leave that faith, it creates a big hole. And they’re looking for reconnection to God, to that sense of mysticism, to the idea that there’s something bigger, that there’s something eternal about us. And so I think there.

Steve Thayer (10:38)

You know, I can’t, I can’t pretend to be able to explain it all, but I think there’s, there’s an appetite for connection and, ⁓ a tolerance, as I said, for the mystical that makes people in Utah, maybe in particular, or people who struggling with their Mormon faith, sort of ready for a psychedelic experience. ⁓ so, and because the, the demographics of belief are changing worldwide,

Steve Thayer (11:04)

particularly in the US and the Mormon folks are no exception to that. as we become more secular as a society, we’re looking for ways to connect and find meaning. And the psychedelic experience is a very powerful way to do that for many people. I do have some concerns that people will sort of leave one dogma for another. And I do see that sometimes. Some of my clients are so -called psychedelic community refugees where they really got wrapped up in a community.

Steve Thayer (11:34)

that was using psychedelics, maybe being facilitated by somebody who didn’t have the right intentions and whose ego is, you know, at the front of the stage instead of being of service. And I’ve seen people really get hurt. ⁓ but I’ve also seen people do a lot of healing.

Sam Believ (11:51)

Yeah, it’s an interesting one as a sort of leader of a community myself and inadvertently. So I am very conscious of that. I think there is a very thin line between let’s say an ayahuasca retreat or a cult because ⁓ you know, people are so suggestible in their open state. So I think you have to be really careful with what you say and how you say it because I’ve had some facilitators that

Sam Believ (12:20)

were kind of attracting too much attention to themselves and they can easily make your psychedelic experience be about them. it’s and yeah, there’s definitely a ⁓ lot of like true spirituality that can come from psychedelics. As in like I definitely didn’t believe in anything before I ever started working with ayahuasca and now I kind of pretty I’m pretty sure you know there is there is God ⁓ whatever you want to call it.

Sam Believ (12:50)

⁓ Let’s go back to, you know, before you started working with psychedelics and you were working as a therapist in the military, ⁓ we get lots of first responders and it’s almost unfair, know, ⁓ people that ⁓ know, like society knows that they’re the people that ⁓ deal with a lot of stress, but at the same time, they’re not allowed to, you ⁓ know, they’re not allowed to work with psychedelics. Sometimes they don’t, they’re not even allowed to…

Sam Believ (13:19)

say that they’re struggling mentally because then it can affect their job. Like what do you think about that? And now after working with psychedelics, ⁓ what do you think, would it be helpful maybe for ⁓ first responders or military specifically?

Steve Thayer (13:36)

I think it can potentially be helpful. know, we interviewed a gentleman, Michael Higgs on our podcast, who military veteran himself brings military veterans for, I think it was five MEO and a Boga ceremonies. You know, there’s plenty of, Heroic Hearts project. There’s a lot of communities who are trying to get veterans access to these powerful healing modalities. I remember being in the military and being very frustrated.

Steve Thayer (14:05)

by all the barriers between a service member and help. You know, I, ⁓ I was working at a, at a military base where there were a lot of folks who had sort of high security clearances, very sensitive jobs. And so they were under a lot of attention and scrutiny for anything that could potentially jeopardize their ability to do their job. So as a therapist, that meant when they came to see me, I had to write a letter to their commander detailing what

Steve Thayer (14:34)

might be a disqualifying condition for their job. So they didn’t have a lot of privacy. mean, imagine just going on your random therapist and they’re like, yeah, tell me everything about you, but if there’s anything concerning, I’m gonna write a letter to your boss. hell no, I’m not gonna talk to you. So that prevented people from showing up at all, or if they did show up from being completely honest, which really, as you can imagine, put a damper on the therapeutic process. And so that was active duty, right?

Steve Thayer (15:00)

But I still, to your point, I still think there is a bit of a stigma on our protectors and helpers being vulnerable and needing help, right? We rely on these folks to protect us and to help us when we’re in need. So sometimes it might make us a little uncomfortable, the idea that they need help. I think that is changing though, Sam. think the, you know, people are recognizing that first responders, especially after the COVID -19 pandemic and the trauma that we all experienced, you know, first responders, physicians, nurses, certainly experienced.

Steve Thayer (15:31)

that these people need a special kind of help. So it’s tragic to me. And I think more than tragic, it’s an injustice that those people who serve our country and are wounded in that service, psychologically and physically have to leave our country to get access to medicine that can be potentially really helpful because it’s not legal here. And that just makes me mad and sad.

Sam Believ (15:54)

Yeah, that really kind of sucks. For example, we have had people like, obviously I’m not going to name any names, but like head of surgery departments of big hospitals in the U .S. that come over here because they’re like at the whim, literally suicidal and nothing else can help. They cannot complain because then they’re going to lose their job. So they come to South America seeking out, asking help. And yeah, especially like a lot of doctors that

Steve Thayer (16:14)

Sam Believ (16:23)

cannot seem to find healing in their own medical system, which hopefully people like you are catering to because you’re gonna, you know, give more options to the therapist to work with because a lot of times I think with just therapy alone, when it does not involve any ⁓ psychedelics, seems to be the progress is too slow. maybe you can, as an expert, talk to us a little bit about, just

Sam Believ (16:52)

therapy versus psychedelic assisted psychotherapy.

Steve Thayer (16:57)

Yeah, you know, I should say that therapy is helpful. Like it’s helpful for a lot of people, regular old therapy, right? By that I mean not medicine assisted. So it’s not that the tools we have are completely ineffective. Like I was saying earlier, I’m just not satisfied. And most of the people who have sought mental health care, well, a lot of the people I should say, would likely agree, especially for these conditions that are so -called treatment resistant.

Steve Thayer (17:25)

right, like chronic PTSD or certain forms of depression or obsessive compulsive disorder, bipolar disorder, like these things that are so disruptive and that we don’t have good data to suggest that our treatments are very effective or as effective as they could be. So, you know, most of the work that I do is still not medicine assisted therapy. Part of that just being because legally the only medicine I have access to in my clinic is ketamine. But, so, you know,

Steve Thayer (17:54)

Regular therapy can still be very helpful, but one of the things I am passionate about with respect to psychedelic assisted therapy, and it’s why I pivoted my career to psychedelic therapy research and application is how psychedelics and psychedelic assisted therapy can accelerate the therapeutic process, or I should say, or grant access to healing to people who have tried all the things and haven’t been able to heal.

Steve Thayer (18:25)

Why that happens is an empirical question, maybe even a psycho spiritual question that we’re still investigating. We have some ideas and you’ve interviewed some people on this podcast who have been able to articulate some of those reasons. But you know, one of the ways I like to think about it in the therapeutic context is that psychedelics seem to help the mind be a bit more flexible. And if you think of mental illness or mental health problems on this spectrum of flexibility, a lot of what makes us sick is an inflexibility of thought.

Steve Thayer (18:54)

and feeling. ⁓ you know, I, I think I am a piece of garbage and nothing can convince me otherwise, even though I have people in my life who love me, even though, you know, if I, if I were to interview the people around this person, they would say definitely not a piece of garbage. In fact, they really care about him and love him that that data can’t update the belief. And you know, Robin Cart, Harris talks about the neurophysiology of this, but psychedelics react, relax the mind in a certain way, make it more plastic and flexible that then allow that data.

Steve Thayer (19:24)

to actually update the core beliefs. And so people can change from that place. Cause you, it’s a ma I’m imagining like this, these cables, there’s this wire in the brain and a wire in the heart and they never connect and psychedelics, you know, clears the path and they’re allowed to connect. And for the, I’ve heard clients say for the first time, I actually felt the truth of the things I was trying to believe. I remember I had a client who was struggling with an eating disorder and under the influence of ketamine, they just, they experienced

Steve Thayer (19:53)

for the first time, an appreciation for their body, right? Where, you know, up until that point they had hated their body and was trying to starve it and shape it so that it would be acceptable. So it can accelerate, it can grant access to things. It can create psychological flexibility where up until that point it has been very difficult to do so. Now I will sort of caution people. Some people will think of psychedelics as sort of this panacea or this miracle cure. You know, you’ve heard it described as

Steve Thayer (20:23)

therapy in a bottle or chemical mindfulness or, you know, 10 years of therapy in a day. And certainly some people have that experience. I don’t think that is, I think it’s more the exception than the rule psychedelics still require thorough preparation. ⁓ sometimes they make things very, very difficult before they make things better. Some, for some folks, they make things a lot worse. ⁓ and you know, expert facilitation and guidance and thorough integration are also really important in order to.

Steve Thayer (20:53)

make the best out of a psychedelic therapy experience. So there’s a lot of info there in that answer, but hopefully that makes sense.

Sam Believ (21:00)

That makes a lot of sense and I appreciate the groundedness of kind of like explaining, you know, that it is not that magic bullet. That’s kind of my daily life when ⁓ I get a new group of people coming in with all sorts of issues and they want the solution right there right now. And it’s kind of, you know, hard to bring those bad news that, you know, it’s actually psychedelics is just that door.

Sam Believ (21:30)

to this long corridor of healing. And yes, it can like really open it really hard, really quickly. And there’s a lot of progress that will come from that, but you still need to walk the walk and do all the required. ⁓ Something you mentioned is like psycho -spiritual health, which is the word that I’ve been hearing a lot recently. it’s, I think as a society now we’re kind of accepting psychedelics.

Sam Believ (21:58)

but still mostly from a very psychological point of view. And me as somebody who is, I think I would like to say balanced in my approach of not going to Wuwu, but also still working with an indigenous shaman and seeing the work they do, but then also kind of grounding myself in a more reasonable studies and ⁓ psychological kind of understanding. ⁓

Sam Believ (22:27)

Where do you see, what ⁓ do you see there in this physical body, spiritual body, mental body? What is your view of spiritual healing now as ⁓ a psychiatrist but also somebody who experienced those feelings themselves?

Steve Thayer (22:47)

Yeah. You know, I think psychology, ⁓ lost its, lost its soul a little bit along the way as it tried to become a legitimate science, quote unquote legitimate science. ⁓ and that isn’t to say that the scientific method isn’t super important and have a really good method for, trying to examine reality. Right. And so I think it’s still a really good thing for all, you know, all the limitations acknowledged.

Steve Thayer (23:17)

for us to be trying to study psychedelic medicines, the phenomena that those medicines evoke in a human psyche so that we can try to figure out who these medicines might be good for, are they safe, are there ways to make them safer? I think the science needs to continue. But if that is all we do, I think we are missing out on a lot of really important things. Because to be human,

Steve Thayer (23:47)

is also to grapple with the unknowable, great, the grand mystery. ⁓ and so when I say psycho spiritual, that’s kind of what I think and what I mean, spiritual meaning, ⁓ how do I create meaning and purpose in my life is, am I connected to something that feels bigger than me, whether that’s community or God. And those of us that have used psychedelics, especially in a group setting, like an ayahuasca ceremony,

Steve Thayer (24:15)

know that it can evoke this feeling of communitas, this connection with other people on a deep soul level. And not just the people in the room, but sometimes ⁓ the people of your species, your ancestors, the human family. And so ⁓ if we say that’s all woo woo, I think we’re throwing out something that could be really, really important for our mental health, but also spiritual health. Also, ⁓ when I think about where psychedelics

Steve Thayer (24:44)

came from, you know, the people that have been using psychedelic medicines for hundreds, if not thousands of years, ⁓ are not people who were testing them in a laboratory, right? In a modern Western laboratory, they were folks that were using them for a variety of reasons. And through tradition and experience, they developed what I would just, I would call psycho spiritual technology. And that technology might be egress, that technology might be the combination of a plant and a vine.

Steve Thayer (25:13)

Right? That talk technology might be, ⁓ what you do when somebody is purging or trying not to purge. might be a drum. might be certain settings in the wilderness. So, and I call those technologies because, you know, maybe we didn’t arrive at them through the laboratory type scientific method, but there’s, there’s something true about those techniques. There’s something important and informed and insightful about those strategies.

Steve Thayer (25:43)

that if we just throw them out as, well, that’s what the people did in indigenous tribes and we have better access to information now, then we’re really throwing out something very, very important. So I think the modern Western world, as it’s trying to push psychedelic medicines through, for instance, an FDA medical pipeline, we need to learn from those ancient technologies. And I think there’s room, I hope there’s room for all of us to do these things in our own ways so that we can increase access to healing states.

Steve Thayer (26:13)

But yeah, those are the, some of the things I think of. Cause I think about the, I’ve, you know, had the privilege to be in ayahuasca circles before and I love how different they are than my ketamine therapy treatment in a, in a sterile, you know, basically hospital room that I had. And I think there’s wonderful things to be gained from both contexts. And I would hate to throw one out.

Sam Believ (26:34)

Yeah, I think grounding ourselves in tradition can be really helpful because it’s kind of like ⁓ if psychedelic experience is like a tree, the tradition is like the roots which ⁓ help hold it together. think, you know, maybe like part of what happened in 60s where the mini psychedelic wave kind of went wrong is because ⁓ they were trying to like rediscover it. And I think it’s a mistake like

Steve Thayer (26:46)

Hmm.

Sam Believ (27:02)

people in the West are doing where it’s like, kind of like when the colonization was happening is like, we were discovering this new land and we’re, it’s, but there were people already living there, right? So it’s, it’s kind of like, ⁓ accepting that there, there is an existing tradition, like instead of like rediscovering the bicycle, maybe getting something from it. And then a lot of people, and a lot of people I interviewed, they, there’s a lot of good

Sam Believ (27:29)

There are some good bridges in between those two traditional and therapeutical world. It’s just that whether people that ⁓ fund those studies will actually allow that information exchange to happen. Because obviously, I understand there’s a lot of interest in trying to patent the molecules and not working with existing stuff because for ⁓ money motives and that’s kind of we have to accept that.

Sam Believ (27:58)

That’s the world we live in and you gotta kind of follow the rules. So it makes a lot of sense. I think as long as we do it slowly and responsibly, that’s already better than the way it happened in the 60s. Do you have any opinion ⁓ of like the previous, let’s say, psychedelic waves that happened?

Steve Thayer (28:21)

Not strong opinions. wouldn’t ⁓ describe myself as a psychedelic historian. I I know what sort of the average person knows who’s curious about this space. It does seem just based on what I do know that there was, you know, there was a, there was a societal or maybe a political backlash against what some people would say was a pretty cavalier use of psychedelics. Yes, there was

Steve Thayer (28:49)

In the 50s and 60s, there was a lot of good science being done. But then there was this sort of cultural movement, often hung on the shoulders of people like Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert, aka Ram Dass, that spooked the normies, right? Spooked the muggles, ⁓ if you want to use those terms. Like, these people don’t want to participate in society. They want to turn on, or the tune in, on a dropout or something like that. Or, you if you want to get really cynical,

Steve Thayer (29:17)

They don’t want to submit to governmental rule and go to war for us. We got to do something about this. So, you know, the people that have been trying to carry that psychedelic torch through the darkness and then light it up here in this modern psychedelic Renaissance are trying to do it a different way. It seems, you know, let’s do it in tandem with government. Let’s do it in tandem with industry so that we can not spook these folks and make sure that we grant access. Like I was saying before,

Steve Thayer (29:46)

to these powerful medicines to people who really need it. And I understand that compromises have to be made and that sometimes you get bad actors who are trying to exploit a medicine simply for material gain or like you alluded to, there’s the destructive nature of colonization and appropriation. So it’s messy, it seemed, I I wasn’t alive in the sixties, but it seems less messy now than it was back then for a variety of factors. So it makes me a little hopeful.

Steve Thayer (30:14)

about this so -called modern renaissance. But we don’t know exactly what’s gonna happen. I mean, we did just see Lycos get denied for the FDA approval for MDMA -assisted therapy for PTSD, which shocked many of us, people who looked at that data and the MAPS Lycos data and thought it was gonna be a sure thing. So it’s ⁓ still gonna be a tricky challenge, I think, to get these medicines in front of as many people as might need them.

Sam Believ (32:53)

I lost you there for a second, ⁓ something happened with my internet.

Sam Believ (32:54)

I lost you there for a second, ⁓ something happened with my internet.

Steve Thayer (32:59)

That’s all right. can hear you now. so I stayed on. maybe the file.

Sam Believ (33:02)

Yeah, I think that the previous thing will probably be recorded as well. I think it’s somewhere there. So let’s just continue. I think there’ll be a second ⁓ recording. So ⁓ what ⁓ did you say in the last part, the part that I missed?

Sam Believ (33:03)

Steve Thayer (33:23)

We were just talking about sort of the 50s and 60s. And then I ended by talking a bit about sort of the modern psychedelic Renaissance and how we don’t want to repeat the same mistakes. And I talked a bit about Lycos and MAPS and the denial of the FDA.

Sam Believ (33:25)

Mm -hmm.

Sam Believ (33:26)

Mm -hmm.

Sam Believ (33:40)

Yeah, cool. I’ll just, once I have both recordings, I’ll get my videographer to patch them up nicely. So we’ll just continue with the different questions. So ⁓ when you talk about, you know, societal change and ⁓ how if we do it too quick or maybe too rushed, ⁓ I mean, that’s my opinion. As somebody who kind of grew up and I was born in USSR, so ⁓

Sam Believ (33:40)

Yeah, cool. I’ll just once I have both recordings, I’ll get my videographer to patch them up nicely. So we’ll just continue with the with the different questions. So ⁓ when you talk about, you know, societal change and ⁓ how if we do it too quick or maybe too rushed, ⁓ I mean, that’s that’s that’s my opinion as somebody who kind of grew up and I was born in USSR. So ⁓

Sam Believ (34:10)

⁓ My first three years were in USSR. I don’t remember much but ⁓ as I was growing up in in now country of Latvia Which is part of European Union, so it kind of changed the From one Union to another but that’s it’s pretty crazy to see what can happen when? Changes happen too quickly like they went from Communism to capitalism. There was a lot of chaos. Nobody kind of understood what happens and it resolved in a lot of

Steve Thayer (34:10)

Hmm.

Sam Believ (34:11)

Steve Thayer (34:29)

Hmm.

Sam Believ (34:37)

turmoil. somebody ⁓ who lives ⁓ now in this, you could say, community that ⁓ has to do with psychedelics, like what we’re trying to do is get people to come over, drink ayahuasca, but still keep working. We have a co -working space, we have ⁓ good internet most of the time, and we want people to use that psychedelic inspired creativity to do stuff, to change the world. ⁓

Sam Believ (34:37)

turmoil. So somebody who lives ⁓ now in this, you could say, community that ⁓ has to do with psychedelics, like what we’re trying to do is get people to come over, drink ayahuasca, but still keep working. We have a co -working space, we have ⁓ good internet most of the time, and we want people to use that psychedelic inspired creativity to do stuff, to change the world. ⁓

Sam Believ (35:05)

but gradually because you wouldn’t want to go from all of a sudden everyone drinking ayahuasca at the same time and like society collapsing because we still all need like, you know, there’s this good example that just to make a pencil you make, you need like 300 different elements and that society is really valuable. ⁓ I wish that we go through the change, but it has to be done gradually. So don’t tune in and drop out immediately, you know, do it gradually. So.

Sam Believ (35:06)

Sam Believ (35:35)

Hopefully, maybe, don’t know, guess, we’ll be able to find another way to live where maybe we hurt ecology less and ⁓ we’re more loving, maybe there’s less wars, but it got to be done slowly. ⁓ Which kind of brings me to, you mentioned that you’re a big fan of philosophy ⁓ growing up. ⁓ and philosophy, obviously, a lot of it comes from Greece ⁓ and there were also

Sam Believ (35:36)

Sam Believ (36:05)

Drinking psychedelics had an episode recently with ⁓ the lady who she was coming live from Greece. She’s Greek herself and she’s exploring those traditions. So what do you think about that? Where is there this interlap between philosophy and psychedelics and ⁓ you as somewhat a philosopher yourself, ⁓ what have you learned maybe from psychedelics?

Sam Believ (36:05)

Drinking psychedelics had an episode recently with ⁓ the lady who she was coming live from Greece. She’s Greek herself and she’s exploring those traditions. So what do you think about that? You where is there this interlap between philosophy and psychedelics and you as somewhat a philosopher yourself, ⁓ what have you learned maybe from psychedelics?

Steve Thayer (36:28)

Yeah, well, I don’t know. ⁓ I don’t myself much of a philosopher, but I do study a lot and think a lot about the human condition and what it means to be a person and how to make meaning out of life. think, you know, I’ve read some of the things, some of the theories about the role that psychedelics have played in ancient traditions, including Grecian traditions, like the Ellucian mysteries. It’s fun for me to think that

Steve Thayer (36:56)

You know, that, ⁓ there was this ritual that some of the greatest thinkers that the West has ever seen participated in and that helped them, you know, come up with some of their ideas and their theories. And this idea that one, in order to find oneself, one has to lose oneself. I think plays well with those of us that have had a psychedelic experiences that to really know what it means to be human, that maybe we need to experience,

Steve Thayer (37:26)

the loss of what that feels like, you know, the so -called ego death to die the little death so that we can return and live with greater hope or something like that. ⁓ so, know, I don’t, I thought I understood me. thought I understood how the mind worked. And then I altered my mind in a profound way with a psychedelic substance and realized that I didn’t really know much before. Not that psychedelics have now made me enlightened far from it.

Steve Thayer (37:56)

⁓ but I think if we’re trying to investigate realities that are current tools, empirical or otherwise can’t touch very well, then it makes sense to use different tools. And so I don’t know exactly what’s going on metaphysically or physically when we’re taking psychedelics. have a little bit of info on the physical side. now with a of the cool neuroscience being done.

Steve Thayer (38:22)

But I can tell you what it feels like and what a lot of my clients say it feels like. It feels like that, you know, the brain is a receiver and the channel has been changed and you get access to a different reality that feels more real than the one you live in day to day. So to say that it’s just a drug experience, I think is a little short sighted and naive. And so from a philosophical perspective, when we’re investigating the big questions, why are we here? Where are we going afterward? If anywhere, what does it mean to live a virtuous life? How should we relate to one another?

Steve Thayer (38:52)

then psychedelics can, as the term implies, manifest what is in the mind in a way that is novel and interesting. So I have found psychedelics, of course, in a psychotherapeutic context to be incredibly helpful, but in an existential meaning -making, like we talked about before, spiritual, but even philosophical contexts, a powerful tool for investigating those perhaps ultimately unanswerable questions.

Sam Believ (39:18)

Yeah, as you say, a powerful tool. It’s kind of, think Stan Grof said that psychedelics are for the mind, what the telescope was for the astronomy, if I’m not mistaken. So it’s like, yeah, of course, if you never had a telescope, you look at the star and you kind of know where your stars are in your, but then obviously with the telescope, you can see so much more. it’s kind of knowing that you don’t know is ⁓ already a good step to kind of getting into the bigger box.

Sam Believ (39:19)

Yeah, as you say, a powerful tool. It’s kind of, think Stan Grof said that psychedelics are for the mind, what the telescope was for the astronomy, if I’m not mistaken. So it’s like, yeah, of course, if you never had a telescope, you look at the star and you kind of know where your stars are in your, but then obviously with the telescope, you can see so much more. it’s kind of knowing that you don’t know ⁓ is already a good step to kind of getting into the bigger box.

Steve Thayer (39:29)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (39:48)

⁓ interesting when you said ⁓ We’re talking about the perspective change and like changing the channel. I remember ⁓ after one of the ios experiences where With my eyes open I could see visions of like altered reality and flows of energy and stuff like that So I had I had a thought maybe an experiment and you do you you perform studies? So maybe it can be an idea for you My question was on a strong psychedelic experience when you have ⁓

Sam Believ (39:48)

⁓ interesting when you said We’re talking about the perspective change and like changing the channel. I remember ⁓ after one of the I was experiences where With my eyes open I could see visions of like altered reality and flows of energy and stuff like that So I had I had a thought maybe an experiment and you do you you perform studies? So maybe it can be an idea for you My question was on a strong psychic experience when you have ⁓

Sam Believ (40:14)

when your visions, your psychedelic visions are intertwined with the reality and it almost feels like you see what you normally are not able to perceive. It’s kind of like enhanced vision. My question would be if you would have a strong psychedelic experience in a VR goggles, would you be still, would the reality still be altered? And then if it wouldn’t be, then it would be a good way to prove that.

Sam Believ (40:15)

Sam Believ (40:40)

What you’re seeing actually exists is just you don’t have the ability to see it, but I don’t know if it makes any sense.

Sam Believ (40:40)

What you’re seeing actually exists is just you don’t have the ability to see it, but I don’t know if it makes any sense.

Steve Thayer (40:46)

That’d be a fun study to run. You know, I think I’m not a neuroscientist, but from the little bit of neurophysiology that I know with respect to psychedelics, think some certain psychedelics, know, they create this phenomenon known as synesthesia where this combination synthesis between senses. So people will see sounds and they’ll hear colors and there’s interesting activation in the regions of the brain involved with sight.

Steve Thayer (41:14)

And then in combination with the synesthetic effect and the neuroplasticity that it causes that maybe is a neurological explanation for why people see visions. And I imagine that if that’s the case, it would still be present with VR goggles on. But I also just, when I am having fun thinking about this, I like to think, you know, there are light spectrums that the human eye can’t pick up on, but it doesn’t mean that they aren’t there like ultraviolet light, for example, or those there’s, you know, our, hearts and other organ systems give off an electromagnetic field that

Steve Thayer (41:43)

we aren’t necessarily conscious of, but we feel certain ways in the presence of other people. And it might be a subtle, you know, micro expressions and things like that, but it might be their scent. might be the electromagnetic field that they’re giving off. And there are people that seem to have extra sensory perception and an intuition that is unexplainable. And maybe this is all explained by cognitive biases and limitations of our minds to grasp reality. But again, as a person who’s

Steve Thayer (42:09)

A PhD social scientist, I have a love and a fidelity to the scientific method, but also I’m leaving a ton of room for the unexplainable, right? There’s still so much about reality that we don’t understand. And maybe psychedelics as a channel changer give us access to certain, I don’t know, ⁓ I was about to say quantum field. I don’t want to piss off the physicists, but like certain realities that are normal thinking don’t have access to.

Steve Thayer (42:37)

So that’s about as woo -woo as I get, Sam, just me sort of having reverence for the mystery.

Sam Believ (42:39)

Mm -hmm.

Sam Believ (42:39)

Mm -hmm.

Sam Believ (42:43)

Well, woo woo ⁓ or not, ⁓ and you mentioned the word quantum, know, even in the physics itself, ⁓ the deeper we go into the physics, the more it starts to sound like woo woo. You know, there’s the electronics here, but it’s also here. Like, what do you mean? You know, and ⁓ all those newer kind of experiments that they’re doing, it’s kind of like we’re almost going full circle where science is connecting with ⁓

Sam Believ (42:43)

Steve Thayer (42:58)

Yeah.

Steve Thayer (43:02)

Sam Believ (43:12)

spirituality again and then especially it has to happen in a psychological field because you know where is ⁓ what is our conscious where is it coming from you know quantum computers and all that stuff so I have no answers for that I have just curiosity and I hopefully one day somebody will come on this podcast and explain to me you know exactly what happens and you mentioned synesthesia it’s a

Sam Believ (43:12)

spirituality again and then especially it has to happen in a psychological field because you know where is ⁓ what is our conscious where is it coming from you know quantum computers and all that stuff so I have no answers for that I have ⁓ just curiosity and I hopefully one day somebody will come on this podcast and explain to me you know exactly what happens and you mentioned synesthesia it’s a

Sam Believ (43:40)

a really real thing. One of my first ayahuasca experiences, I could see music. It was almost, it almost looked like, you know, those old windows ⁓ media players. I don’t know if you’re a mad guy, but like equalizer dancing. Like I could see that with my eyes closed together with the music. But interestingly enough, I could also see where the shaman was anytime in the ceremonies, like this blob of light with my eyes closed. And I don’t know, maybe it’s ⁓

Sam Believ (43:41)

Steve Thayer (43:53)

Yeah.

Steve Thayer (43:56)

I’m hang up.

Sam Believ (44:09)

my mind, maybe whatever, but anytime I would open my eyes to check, was pretty accurate. that’s another thing we could maybe run ⁓ a study on. ⁓ Yeah, speaking about podcasts and guests, know you also have a podcast yourself. So ⁓ why did you start a podcast?

Sam Believ (44:09)

Steve Thayer (44:30)

Hmm. Yeah. We’ve been doing psychedelic therapy frontiers for around three years now, almost 170 episodes. ⁓ we started it. My co -host and I, Dr. Reed Robinson, ⁓ started it because we both have a passion for education, for free access to good information. And we recognize that there were a lot of good, there were a few really good podcasts in the psychedelic space at the time when we started.

Steve Thayer (45:00)

We just wanted to add our voice and have an excuse to talk to cool people in this industry and to do a deep dive on topics that were interesting to us and then potentially share that with people who might find it interesting. I myself have benefited a lot from podcasts, been listening to podcasts for many, many years. They have been a source of continuing education and exploration and connection.

Steve Thayer (45:27)

with other people interested in similar things for me. And so I kind of wanted to pay that forward. Also as a therapist, I help one person at a time generally, unless I’m facilitating a group where I get to go really deep. And I really love that. I love depth. love vulnerability. I love the safety that can be created with vulnerability and the growth that comes out of that. But I also wanted to sort of, I guess, cast the net a little bit wider and help as many people as I could.

Steve Thayer (45:56)

from an educational perspective. Both my parents were educators and so I love to teach and I love to share. So those were some of the primary motivations for starting a podcast. It was also just kind of an experiment. and I both, like I said, have really enjoyed podcasts and had thought for many years about starting one, just didn’t know what to talk about. And here I was developing my… ⁓

Steve Thayer (46:22)

pivoting my career towards psychedelics and teaching other therapists at the time about ketamine assisted therapy. And I wanted an excuse to develop even further. And as many people who are listening know, that to teach something is to learn it on a different level. So those are some of our primary motives. And we’ve gotten to talk to some really cool, really interesting people. The majority of our episodes are just me and Reed having a conversation about

Steve Thayer (46:48)

A mental health topic, typically psychedelic related, but not always, but yeah, we’ve had the honor to interview some really fun folks.

Sam Believ (46:55)

Yeah, podcasts is a great way to meet cool people. you know, I would probably not otherwise be talking to you right now. And I’ve checked your podcast out as well. I really liked your episode on ayahuasca. I think it was really informed one ⁓ with a lot of facts and like scientific knowledge. So that’s a really good one for those who listening. Definitely go check it out. Psychedelic Frontiers podcast, right?

Sam Believ (46:56)

Yeah, podcasts is a great way to meet cool people. you know, I would probably not otherwise be talking to you right now. And I’ve checked your podcast out as well. I really liked your episode on ayahuasca. I think it was really informed one with a lot of facts and like scientific knowledge. So that’s a really good one for those who listening. Definitely go check it out. Psychedelic Frontiers podcast, right?

Steve Thayer (47:24)

psychedelic therapy frontiers. Yeah.

Sam Believ (47:25)

psychedelic therapy frontiers. ⁓ Check out the episode on the ayahuasca. ⁓ Speaking of your podcast, like out of the guests that you had, I know it’s a lot of just you talking to read, but also what’s the most, I don’t know, like memorable guest you had?

Sam Believ (47:26)

Psychedelic Therapy Frontiers. ⁓ Check out the episode on the ayahuasca. ⁓ Speaking of your podcast, out of the guests that you had, I ⁓ know it’s a lot of just you talking to read, but also what’s the most memorable guest you had?

Steve Thayer (47:48)

Hmm. We’ve had a lot of memorable ones. You know, I, the interview with Chris Beish, the author of LSD in the mind of the universe was, ⁓ really, really cool. mean, I read his book and it struck me on a deep level. Here was this, you know, professor philosopher who over the course of decades did 70 plus high dose LSD journeys facilitated by his wife in a very systematic way.

Steve Thayer (48:19)

And it was like he was taking a core sample of the universe. This guy just had the most amazing insights ⁓ and suffering. Like he just went through these really difficult experiences to glean these insights. And so that one was really fascinating. ⁓ The one with Dick Schwartz, Richard Schwartz, the pioneer behind internal family systems therapy or IFS was a delight. and I both enjoy that particular therapeutic modality.

Steve Thayer (48:47)

internal family systems and find that it pairs well with psychedelics. We got to interview Rick Doblin, who’s before the FDA ruling and Rick’s an inspiring character, a maverick, know, just tireless in his efforts to bring psychedelics, MDMA in particular, to the masses. We got to interview Gould Dolan, who’s a researcher that’s done some of the more fascinating research on psychedelics and neuroplasticity. And from her, we get these

Steve Thayer (49:16)

this idea around critical windows that where psychedelics sort of reopen these learning windows neurologically that tend to close as we develop. And that might be potentially one of the explanations for why they can help people change where other things haven’t been able to. ⁓ Yeah, those are the ones that float to the top of my mind. We’ve been able to talk to so many cool people.

Steve Thayer (49:44)

⁓ what’s that guy? DMT the spirit molecule.

Steve Thayer (49:50)

That’s funny that I’m forgetting his name. He was on Joe Rogan and stuff.

Sam Believ (49:59)

don’t have an assistant like Joe Rogan does. It’s like bring Jimmy. Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. I just found that I was just Googling it as well. Rick Strassman. ⁓ got lots of good, you got lots of cool guests. ⁓ that’s yeah, that’s once again, the benefit of running a podcast and, ⁓ you know, you yourself, obviously as you interview people, you learn a lot and, ⁓

Sam Believ (50:00)

don’t have an assistant like Joe Rogan does. It’s like ⁓ bring Jimmy. Yeah. Yeah. I just found that I was just Googling it as well. Rick Strassman. ⁓ got lots of good, you got lots of cool guests. ⁓ that’s yeah, that’s once again, the benefit of running a podcast and, ⁓ you know, you yourself, obviously as you interview people, you learn a lot and, ⁓

Steve Thayer (50:03)

I know right? We can ask Jamie to pull it up. Rick Strassman. There we go.

Steve Thayer (50:10)

There you go.

Sam Believ (50:27)

in your work, you also learn a lot. And I know you talk a lot about the importance of the self -growth for facilitators, for ⁓ the ⁓ therapists themselves. Can you talk a little bit about that with us?

Sam Believ (50:28)

in your work you also learn a lot and I know you talk a lot about the importance of the self -growth for facilitators, for ⁓ the ⁓ therapists themselves. Can you talk a little bit about that with us?

Steve Thayer (50:42)

Yeah. You know, if you choose to hold space for other people when they’re altering their consciousness in this very vulnerable way, then you have a certain ethical responsibility to be able to hold that space in a safe and integrous way. So, you know, in order to do that, I think one needs thorough training, but one also needs to make sure that they’re taking good care of themselves because

Steve Thayer (51:12)

you know, you are part of the setting. We talk a lot of in psychedelic therapy about set and setting or the mindset and the setting in which you’re doing the psychedelic medicine. And, ⁓ as a spaceholder or a facilitator or a guide or a therapist, you are a very important part of that setting. So if you’re bringing, as one of my supervisors would say, your shit into the room, ⁓ then that’s going to, that potentially can harm other people or at least interfere with their process.

Steve Thayer (51:42)

So this isn’t to say you need to be a perfected enlightened being in order to do this work, but you should be relatively self -aware so that when something gets triggered in you, you can discern is this my stuff? And do I just need to manage this so I can be here for this person? Or is this being elicited from me and it might be good data that I can help this person with? You know, is it more about the things they elicit because of the way they move through the world?

Steve Thayer (52:10)

⁓ and less about my particular, you know, demons, so to speak in the therapy world, we call that, this dance between transference and counter transference. as the client transferring onto us, a dynamic that is alive in their, in their life, maybe from their childhood and that we can work with and is, is, know, some, a good opportunity to create change, or is it counter transference mean that we are transforming transferring, excuse me, something onto them from our lives. And if unacknowledged, that can be really damaging.

Steve Thayer (52:41)

So those are some reasons why it’s important to do self -development work. think also, you know, when we teach, when I’ve taught psychedelic assisted therapy to others, inevitably the question comes up, should guides, therapists, facilitators have experience with the medicine that they’re working with? The general consensus from the people that I’ve talked to is it makes sense, right? Although, and this might be a controversial take, I don’t think it’s…

Steve Thayer (53:07)

For some medicines, it’s absolutely necessary in order to hold safe space at the very least that you have that experience. I think it’s tremendously helpful. I like to think of it in terms of like a wilderness survival guide. If I’m going into the wilderness with a survival guide, I mean, I would like to know that that survival guide has been in that wilderness, but if they haven’t, I want to at least know they’ve been in a wilderness and they’ve had a chance to practice their wilderness survival skills to the level that they are an expert.

Steve Thayer (53:37)

I recently read this book called the lion trackers guide to life by Boyd Vardy. And in there, he talks about, learning how to track in Africa, how to track lions and his teacher saying when they lost the lions track, ⁓ you know, he’s asking him, well, what do we do? We’ve lost the track. And his teacher says something like, well, I don’t know where we’re going, but I know exactly how to get there. And I think that’s a great metaphor for.

Steve Thayer (54:04)

facilitating or helping other people through psychedelic experience. Because just because you’ve had a particular experience doesn’t mean they’re going to have that same experience. That’s, think young facilitators or inexperienced facilitators are in danger of making that assumption. Like, I’ve done ayahuasca. know what you’re experiencing. The hell you do. Like you, you might know what it’s like to, you know, be in distress or to, you know, communicate with entities, et cetera, et cetera. But you don’t know what it’s like for them. So you don’t know where they’re going.

Steve Thayer (54:31)

But if you have good facilitation skills, good therapy skills, you might know how to get there, meaning I’m gonna provide safety and support. Depending on the kind of therapy you’re doing, I’m gonna direct them inward. I’m gonna remind them to breathe, those kinds of things. So important to do your own work and important to get good training too.

Sam Believ (54:49)

Yeah, that’s very true. As somebody who, I mean, I kind of stopped counting, but probably around 100 ceremonies of ayahuasca and never having same experience twice, I can truly attest to the fact that the moment you feel like you know it is the moment that probably can have a very difficult experience and it will be shown to you that you only know that you don’t know. But on the opposite spectrum of this, what would you tell someone

Sam Believ (54:50)

Steve Thayer (55:02)

Hmm.

Sam Believ (55:20)

who did all the necessary training and they’re trying to work in the psychedelic field, but it is a new field. even there is not this legacy 200 -year university program you can attend. And a lot of people have to choose whether they ground themselves in an indigenous tradition or more traditional psychology training.

Sam Believ (55:20)

who’s, you know, they did all the necessary training and they’re trying to work in a psychedelic field, but it is a new field. even, you know, there is not this legacy 200 year university program you can attend. And a lot of people have to choose whether they ground themselves in a indigenous tradition or in more traditional psychology training.

Sam Believ (55:46)

But let’s say somebody’s working that feeling they might be feeling imposter syndrome. What is your opinion on that?

Sam Believ (55:47)

And let’s say somebody’s working that feel and they might be feeling imposter syndrome. What is your opinion on that?

Steve Thayer (55:54)

Yeah. You know, imposter syndrome or imposter feelings, they can be good data. Meaning that, you know, maybe we don’t want to totally dismiss those feelings as they come up because they might be indicative of, ⁓ I actually, I don’t feel as confident as I would like to feel. Maybe I need more training. Maybe I need more experience, but certainly we’ve, we’ve known people are maybe experienced ourselves.

Steve Thayer (56:22)

in situations where we do have a lot of experience and we do have a lot of training yet we still feel like an imposter. So at some point moving forward in the space with that fear on board is indicated, right? It’s not that the first time after getting thoroughly trained, I facilitated like a ketamine assisted therapy experience. I was a hundred percent confident, but I was confident enough and had the support of my

Steve Thayer (56:50)

community of practice and my teachers and my supervisors that I felt okay about moving forward, even though I was feeling a little afraid and not a hundred percent confident. So, ⁓ yes, sometimes imposter syndrome is good data and it implies that we need to get more training and support. And then sometimes it’s one of those stories, right? One of those stories coming from a part that, ⁓ part of our psyche that doesn’t want us to fail and it would never be satisfied no matter how much preparation, ⁓

Steve Thayer (57:20)

preparation we do or is afraid of being judged, you know, et cetera, et But I think having a community of practice is really important. Getting support, accountability, supervision, education. And because as you know, a lot of people who do this work, they’re doing it in the so -called underground because it’s not legal, some of these medicines. And that can be a really isolating place because they feel they have to be clandestine so they don’t get in trouble.

Steve Thayer (57:50)

They got to remain private and then it’s hard to get the kind of support that I get to enjoy working in a clinic, working with colleagues, doing the podcast, interacting with folks like you, you know, doing kind of an assisted therapy. So community of practice is important too.

Sam Believ (58:09)

Yeah, I ⁓ choose a facilitator with imposter syndrome over anyone, you know, over the, ⁓ I had that was once and now I’m a shaman kind of person any day. So there’s like those two extreme and it’s kind of would be nice to find the balance, but I can imagine as a head of training in numinous, you interact with a lot of people that are on the path to become facilitators. And so ⁓

Sam Believ (58:09)

Steve Thayer (58:21)

Right.

Sam Believ (58:39)

how first of all, like how does it make you feel that potentially, you you’re you’re being a part of creating this ⁓ population of people that will then interact with more people kind of creating that chain chain effect and and also like what would you what would your message be to somebody who let’s say somebody who is ⁓ has a psychology background and they want to switch to doing more psychedelics in their practice.

Sam Believ (58:39)

Steve Thayer (59:09)

Yeah. So, you know, I’m very humbled by the idea that, ⁓ I wouldn’t have an influence in somebody that’s trying to learn these skills. ⁓ it’s humbling also in the sense that, ⁓ I take it really seriously, right? It’s a responsibility. If people listen to my podcast and they think of me as some kind of authority, a ⁓ that intimidates the hell out of me. Cause I, I have my own version of imposter syndrome and B it inspires me, right? It inspires me to make sure that

Steve Thayer (59:37)

The information I’m giving is well thought out, well researched in context. ⁓ so it’s an honor to be able to teach other people. And it’s, it’s also why I do it. really hope that in my own limited way, I can, I can help people pay attention to the things that are important and in their efforts to become, to work with psychedelics in whatever capacity they work with them.

Steve Thayer (60:07)

The things that I’ve noticed are important. The things that I’ve learned are important from people with more experience than me. And inevitably I’ll make mistakes. I’m trying to make compassionate space for those mistakes. But for people who are interested and they want to get involved, know, there, there, there are a couple of places I like to point people. Certainly the training program that we do at numinous, I’m a little bit biased toward cause I’m the lead instructor for numinous, but we have an entire, education pathway.

Steve Thayer (60:36)

where people can take a variety of courses, all designed to help them feel prepared to work with psychedelic medicine. And then there are other communities like psychedelic grad is one I like to point people to. It’s an online community. And if you just Google psychedelic grad, you’ll find it for people who are students or people who are interested in getting involved professionally in psychedelics, lot of great resources in a community there where you can share notes and interact.

Steve Thayer (61:06)

There are some, I’m not, you know, off the top of my head, couldn’t list them, but there are some programs now that are, ⁓ you know, where you can get training in psychotherapy. And, ⁓ there’s also a psychedelic component. think those types of organizations are going to be, or training programs are going to be more available as the research progresses. Certainly if MDMA or psilocybin gets FDA approved as a medicine, we’re going to need a lot of good profet well -trained professionals. So think programs will pop up.

Steve Thayer (61:36)

But go out there and get training and don’t be alone. Right? You got podcasts like yours, other, lot of really great training programs like the one at psychedelics today, the vital program is really good. ⁓ you know, third wave Paul Austin’s organization has a lot of good education, training and community. yeah, just a lot of great education and training out there. So let your curiosity lead you and be insatiable. Get as much information as you can.

Sam Believ (62:02)

Very good recommendations. ⁓ Steve, it was a pleasure having you on the podcast. think it’s time for us to wrap up. So anything else you might want to tell to the audience and then ⁓ where can they find you or where can they learn more about you?

Sam Believ (62:03)

Steve Thayer (62:23)

Yeah, Sam, I really appreciate the opportunity. Thank you for inviting me on. If people want to learn more about me, they can go to my website, drstevetheyerd .com. For better or worse, I’m on Instagram. I don’t post a whole lot these days, but you can find me on Instagram. tend to put clips from the podcast on there. Of course, please listen to the podcast. If you’re interested in mental health, generally in psychedelic assisted therapy specifically, that’s psychedelic therapy frontiers on all podcast platforms and on YouTube.

Steve Thayer (62:53)

And then, yeah, if you’re interested in our clinical trial research or in our training, you can go to numinous .com forward slash training for training or forward slash research for our clinical trial.

Sam Believ (63:06)

Thank you, Steve. Yeah, ⁓ definitely guys, check out Steve and the podcast. It’s a lot of fun. It’s a really good ⁓ podcast. There’s not many good psychedelic related podcasts and yours is definitely one of them. And you’ve been listening to Ayahuasca podcast. As always, we do host Sambaliyev and I hope you enjoyed this episode.

Sam Believ (63:06)

Thank you, Steve. Yeah, ⁓ definitely guys, check out Steve and the podcast. It’s a lot of fun. It’s a ⁓ really good podcast. There’s not many good psychedelic related podcasts and yours is definitely one of them. And you’ve been listening to Ayahuasca podcast. As always, we do host Sambaliyev and I hope you enjoyed this episode.

Sam Believ (63:32)

Okay, I really hope ⁓ the first part has been uploaded. It ⁓ would suck if we lose the first half of the episode. ⁓ Thank you, Steve. ⁓ Good stuff. So yeah, as I mentioned in the beginning, ⁓ if you ever wanna head down here to Colombia and experience Colombian ayahuasca, which is called Jahe, actually it’s slightly different than the Peruvian one because the DMT… ⁓

Sam Believ (64:00)

Component is from a different plan and then in Peru. It’s chakruna and here. It’s Chagra panga ⁓ some people say it’s stronger some people say it’s you know, I’ve heard all kinds of opinions, but Probably interesting and you invited to to my retreat totally free of charge whenever you want to come ⁓ So if you’re ever in Colombia or want to you know the trip and Yeah, I’m gonna

Sam Believ (64:27)

⁓ I’m gonna send, I don’t know if we’re connected on, because I have an Instagram podcast for ⁓ Instagram account for the podcast itself. What was your Instagram? Dr. Steve here. I’m gonna send you an invite there as well. cause when I’m gonna post a short snippet, I’m gonna tag you. So make sure you find it. might ⁓ be somewhere in a spam. Instagram has been.

Sam Believ (64:54)

Really not nice to us recently. Like we had our main profile was disabled because they said we’re promoting drugs, which is really hard. But I do have my personal one still and the one for the podcast.

Sam Believ (65:24)

Yeah, my, I think what caused it for us was I had one very funny video where I’m like, levitating a piece of paper and ⁓ it went kind of like semi -viral. So I did a promotion on it to get more people to see it. And I think when you’re in that space, there’s a lot of people that are gonna hate you and they start reporting you. And if you get enough reports, then is when they kind of ban you. So that’s a hard lesson learned, but.

Sam Believ (65:51)

know, life keeps going on, so I’m just gonna move forward. ⁓

Sam Believ (66:02)

⁓ Let me ⁓

Sam Believ (66:10)

recordings yeah it says I’m 99 % finished

Sam Believ (66:20)

says calculating remaining time but I know that ⁓ if we if I leave it open it’s gonna it’s gonna upload you use Riverside as well for your recordings

Sam Believ (66:35)

Yeah. I wonder what happened with the internet because normally we have like 500 megabits for here for a Colombian countryside that’s extremely fast, but some kind of drop. ⁓ Also, ⁓ do you, because you mentioned like your guests in your podcast, is there anyone that comes to mind that I should reach out to an interview? Somebody that, you know, ⁓ great guests, but also maybe has anything to do with ayahuasca, so more

Sam Believ (67:04)

more relevant than anyone comes to mind.

Sam Believ (67:17)

⁓ Not yet, no. ⁓ I did reach out to the Heroic Hearts people once, offering them my retreat, because we’re obviously more budget than most. But yeah, it’s an interesting idea. I have a lot of episodes on PTSD and veterans.

Sam Believ (67:53)

I’ll try and try and reach out to her. ⁓ And yeah, if you, if you ever want to talk about Colombian, I was specifically, or ⁓ just, think you only have one episode on iOS and it’s mostly from like scientific perspective. You want to talk more about like the experiences and the people and ⁓ from more facilitation perspective and like retreat side, side of things. I’m, I would be, I would more than love to, to hop on. I also like to go on podcasts. I think I’ve.

Sam Believ (68:22)

I 50 episodes on my own podcast and I have probably 15 when I just go on different people’s podcasts to talk about ayahuasca and my story and stuff like that.

Sam Believ (68:48)

⁓ Also the fact that a lot of people don’t know but ayahuasca was kind of popularized in Colombia like a lot of people don’t know that ⁓ Why am I blanking out on his name the ethnobotanist the famous ethnobotanist that Kind of put ayahuasca on the map Richard Evans Schultes that he actually he was traveling in Colombia when it was happening and McKenna brothers also came to Colombia’s just that

Sam Believ (69:16)

in the 80s and 90s when the narcos happened and the ayahuasca kind of popularized so all the people went to Peru but in reality it’s not it’s it’s almost as traditional as in Peru if not even more traditional there are at least five tribes here that work with ayahuasca and there are like certain benefits because because it was overlooked there’s kind of less psychedelic tourism and kind of negative aspects of it so i don’t know but i would

Sam Believ (69:45)

would love to so and once again ⁓ definitely come over I know I know you drink ayahuasca or or or your co -host but would love to host you we had we had some good experiences so far the way we do it is obviously you come totally free of charge but what I do expect in return is if you can do like one hour lecture or something like that just to like teach people something for example ⁓ Joshua Solvay the ⁓

Sam Believ (70:13)

somatic experiencing guy came and he he taught our our team about somatic experience. It was just like short snippet but it feels like we’re we’re bringing in people that like bring in knowledge and kind of like it feels like growth to me so I kind of I kind of love love this kind of collaboration so

Sam Believ (70:36)

⁓ I will send you all the info.

Sam Believ (70:40)

Cool, Steve. Have a great day and enjoy the work. ⁓

Trauma and psychedelics. Ayahuasca Podcast with Steve Thayer

Transcript

Leave a Reply Cancel reply

Explore

Find

Contact