In this episode of AyahuascaPodcast.com host Sam Believ has a conversation with Adrian Lozano
We touch upon subjects of social anxiety, microdosing vs SSRI, inner child work and more.
If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to
Find more about Adrian at http://www.lozanoflows.com
Transcript
Sam Believ (00:02)
welcome to ayahuascapodcast .com. As always with you the host Sam Biliyev. Today we’re interviewing Adrian Lozano. ⁓ Adrian hosts transformative retreats. He facilitates ceremonies and supports individuals with microdosing and integration. He’s a plant medicine facilitator and microdosing coach. ⁓ In his work, he incorporates modalities such as parts work, breath work, meditation and somatic awareness. ⁓ Adrian, welcome to the podcast.
adrian (00:32)
Thank you, Sam, for having me on. Pleasure to be here.
Sam Believ (00:35)
Adrian, ⁓ before we begin, ⁓ tell us a little bit about yourself and what in your life brought you to work with psychedelics.
adrian (00:46)
Yeah, ⁓ so both my parents are from Mexico, so I was born and raised in Southern California. ⁓ And growing up with parents that are very strict Catholics, I had a lot of, I grew up with a lot of suppression, shame, guilt, and that led into having anxiety, depression. And then as an adult, ⁓ as a young adult, I would also drink alcohol to cope with all of that. So.
adrian (01:14)
Before I came to plant medicine, I was really struggling with my mental health. I felt really lost and disconnected. ⁓ So it was actually Ayahuasca. ⁓ One of my friends invited me to a ceremony with Ayahuasca and that was like my first dive into all of this. ⁓ But it was kind of a lot to come into. I didn’t have any foundation, support, any kind of grounding. ⁓ So then, you know, working a lot with Aya, but then kind of have worked with other.
adrian (01:43)
modalities and therapy and done a lot of integrating. That’s kind of where I realized that there was a lot of generational trauma that I had that I wasn’t aware of. And through my own process of healing, I realized that these medicines really have a big capacity to heal, to transform, to wake up our inner strengths and have decided to commit my path to being of service to others.
Sam Believ (02:08)
Thank you for sharing your story. I realized that you say, you you want to do ayahuasca and obviously it changed your life, but it was a difficult experience. And I believe maybe from what I’m hearing, did the retreat you went to, what kind of ceremony was it? Was it just, ⁓ just the one standalone ceremony, no support or was there some kind of container with a group therapy or maybe did they provide you any integration support and stuff like that?
adrian (02:37)
Yeah, good question. So actually, it was a community from Columbia that came down. It was like, they had, it was a big ceremony. It was a retreat. It was here in the United States, about 40 people. But no, that, and that’s exactly why I think it was so hard for me because I had two ceremonies. ⁓ I felt all this connection, interconnectedness. ⁓ And then every, you know, cause no one was from here. Everyone left and all people that were there were from all over the United States. So.
adrian (03:06)
I had no community support at all and the weed started to grow back really fast. And actually, ⁓ after my first ceremony, ⁓ I feel like things got worse before they got better. But a big part of that was because I didn’t have any support, no community, but you know, they were coming from Columbia and then they left. And that was it.
Sam Believ (03:26)
Yeah, ⁓ the reason I’m asking that is because I’ve never had the ayahuasca outside of Colombia. ⁓ My plant medicine experience started here and I was going to those more sort of, let’s say, traditional indigenous style ceremonies where you kind of, you come over, you bring your own mattress, ⁓ bring your own bucket and you find a spot and then you go get your medicine. They support you in the ceremony and after that you’re on your own. And I had the…
Sam Believ (03:55)
a couple experiences that were also pretty traumatic. I mean, they were all meaningful, but I just felt like once I was drinking in the jungle and I went to the bathroom and I started, my journey started very deep in the bathroom and I locked myself in the bathroom and they just left me there. So by the time I came back from this extremely deep experience, I was on my own in the bathroom. There was nobody in the house and I was like, yeah, it was terrible. So that kind of.
Sam Believ (04:22)
I brought it back to the work with the at my own retreat where we focus so much on number one, like when people arrive first 24 hours, there is no medicine is just talking, just getting to know each other and teaching them how to navigate their experience, how to ground themselves, you know, just and then building trust within the group, building trust with the facilitator so that they can actually when the time comes and Ayahuasca tries to dissolve your ego, you can actually let go. So, ⁓
Sam Believ (04:52)
But afterwards, ⁓ do I understand correctly that for now ⁓ you’re still a big fan of ayahuasca and you use it for your own self work still?
adrian (05:03)
Yeah, I’ve done most of my healing with ayahuasca and I’ve done a lot of my shadow work with it as well. Like you said, the trauma and ego, letting go, all that. But I still do sit with her from time to time. ⁓ But I work with mushrooms in my own practice and what I do. But yeah, I have a deep connection with ayahuasca.
Sam Believ (05:26)
It’s interesting because ⁓ in our work with ayahuasca, I only work with the shaman. ⁓ Even though I’ve been working with it for years now, I would never even consider serving it. However, I did serve mushrooms in kapo ceremonies back in the day, a long time ago. ⁓ Why do you think the barrier of entries is lower with mushrooms? The medicine is as strong, but what is it about it that…
Sam Believ (05:54)
makes it let’s say more approachable from a facilitator standpoint.
adrian (05:59)
Yeah, good question. Cause yeah, even though I have a deep relationship with Aya, I have no interest in serving their medicine. ⁓ I think for me it’s because ayahuasca has deep relationship with South America and with wisdom from that area. So I think, you know, having that indigenous wisdom, that respect, the reciprocity and all of that is important for anyone that’s serving Aya. Like they, I would not feel comfortable.
adrian (06:28)
sitting with someone who has not actually been to the Amazon to work with that medicine or has not sat with it in that capacity. ⁓ And with mushrooms, it’s different, with mushrooms, they grow everywhere. And, you know, they’re a lot more accessible and they kind of, there’s no specific area of the world that they come from. And, you know, a lot of different cultures have worked with mushrooms, but with ayahuasca, I think it’s more, has ties to South America that I think also has just a level of respect of.
adrian (06:57)
those who have really learned and sat with that medicine and having that same ⁓ integrity feels different than, you know, someone like myself who works with mushrooms. And I don’t necessarily have to have gone to the Amazon or South, you know, in that capacity, but I have my own deep connection with mushroom, which feels to me more in alignment.
Sam Believ (07:17)
Mm -hmm. So, yeah, I totally agree with that. Ayahuasca just seems to be a bit more location. It’s tied to a certain location. And when it’s out of there, it almost kind of loses its power in a way. ⁓ But going back to your first Ayahuasca experience or first Ayahuasca experiences, when you said it was pretty difficult, it was still very life -changing, but pretty difficult. Now as an experience facilitator and obviously having attended
Sam Believ (07:47)
many ayahuasca ceremonies and working with mushrooms. What would have you done differently? Like what would you tell those facilitators now? Like what should they do to help you not have an experience that is so, let’s say confusing?
adrian (08:06)
I think preparation and having practices that are going to allow you to ground, like I didn’t have any practices before or any spaces as well. Like community is medicine, having, you know, a safe community where you can process or integrate or working with someone for me, it was therapy. So after a couple of ceremonies, I finally got to therapy and that the things started changing, but I had no support. I thought that this was going to do all the work for me. And I actually was bypassing a lot of the actual integration work. So having the awareness of.
adrian (08:36)
what integration is, knowing that the ceremony begins after the ceremony ends for as far as like integrating and being able to really make space to process all of the intelligence of grandmother and be able to sit with it. So that does take time. And I don’t think I didn’t have that education or knowledge to do that. So really having practices are going to support you having time with yourself, connection with yourself so that you can integrate.
adrian (09:04)
and really be able to weave in the magic of the medicine into your day -to -day life.
Sam Believ (09:13)
I love this phrase that you use, spiritual bypassing. We all met people that have done 10, 20, 50 ceremonies but never changed because they never did the work. Talk to us a little bit about this spiritual bypassing, how it looks like, how can people ⁓ prevent it from happening to themselves.
adrian (09:37)
Yeah, good question. Cause that is what was happening to me. I didn’t realize that I had to go to a couple of ceremonies to figure out what was going on. But for me, I thought that I was, I was healed after my first ayahuasca ceremony. I was like, ⁓ okay. Like I’m good. I don’t need to do any work. And you know, me healing was going to ceremony. ⁓ Well, it was healing to be in ceremony. That was not me doing the work. And I was kind of, I didn’t want to look at everything that was under there, but I was, I went to like,
adrian (10:07)
love and light. I was like, ⁓ everything is good. I’m great. I’m, you know, I feel amazing. Like not realizing that there’s a lot of shit under there. So for me, it was like really being able to accept my own shadows, my own trauma, my own parts of me that I reject. ⁓ Once I was able to really look at that and be like, actually everything is not okay. There’s a lot here and I can’t just skip it and be like, okay. I’m, I’m healed and I’m good. And you know, thinking that,
adrian (10:37)
me going to the next ceremony was going to be able to get back to that place because that’s what was going on. I went to ceremony. I thought I was great. And then the magic wore off. The afterglow wore off and the weed started to grow back really fast. And I was back in my same bullshit. Excuse the language, ⁓ but after and then I would go back to ceremony and I would feel great again. And then same thing would happen. So then I was like, something’s not happening. Something’s going on.
adrian (11:04)
And that’s when I had another ceremony when the grandmother told me, ⁓ Hey, you’re, we keep telling you the same thing over and over again. And she’s like, I don’t want to see you in ceremony again until you go do the work. And then it was a very challenging experience. It was what I perceived to be like an ego, the solution experience, but I thought I was dying and I was resisting and I did not want to let go. And then I finally did. And I came back and that’s when she was like, okay, you’re going to get another chance.
adrian (11:34)
do the work. And to me, that meant starting therapy, ⁓ practicing yoga, meditation, ⁓ journaling, and I was not in ceremony for a while. And then that’s when I saw the healing started to happen. I saw it really going inward and looking at who I am, where I come from, all the things that made me who I am. And that really was when I started shifting energetically inside and out and people could, after a while they were able to tell that.
adrian (12:04)
And I could tell that and it felt very different. So really it was actually committing to my own healing and being able to look inside and be like, kind of take a notice of what is really here and what’s really there. What are my triggers? What are my reactions? Why do I behave in this way? And it was kind of like having to undo, like kind of be really curious and compassionate for who I was and where I was going.
Sam Believ (12:30)
It’s very interesting because I think your experience is very similar to mine because in the beginning when I really started working with ayahuasca regularly my goal was to heal my depression and what you call an afterglow it would take away my pain and my depression for two to four weeks at a time. ⁓ And meanwhile in those periods of time I was able to actually like do stuff.
Sam Believ (13:00)
You can call it work, but I think my main reason for my depression was lack of direction in life. ⁓ So in that period of time, I would find myself taking courses, learning stuff and sort of progressing till eventually in one of the ceremonies, it kind of showed me like, you know, here’s your purpose. ⁓ And since then, I kind of, so in a way for me, I did the work, ⁓ but in a way for me, Ayahuasca kind of gave it to me. And even though it took more than a year.
Sam Believ (13:29)
for the intention to become a reality because I’ve been asking what am I here for, what am I here for? And then it finally told me which it just happened to be was ayahuasca. ⁓ Paradoxically so, that’s what led me into starting my own retreat. But it is interesting that you also describe this experience where you have ayahuasca tell you like, why don’t you do the homework? I’ve had one similar and it felt like…
Sam Believ (13:58)
It was like, why are you back so soon? And it felt angry. It felt like I did something wrong. And then I had a terrible trip. It’s like, you want to disrespect me? I’m going to show you. ⁓ So it is interesting how I was getting away self -governing where I think it would be really hard to abuse it. ⁓ And yeah, the two steps forward, one step back, you know, you…
adrian (14:00)
Yeah.
Sam Believ (14:26)
You go, you get this after glow and you feel like your life is forever amazing. And then you kind of go back a little bit and you need to do self work and maybe go back into the ceremony and go a little bit further. But then in my experience, like years later, you realize, wow, your life has really changed, but it’s, it’s really hard to tie it to one event. But there’s a lot of people. They come to the ceremony and they’re like, yeah, ⁓ give me that magic bill so I can forever be good and never need to do anything about it. ⁓ and yeah, unfortunately it doesn’t work.
Sam Believ (14:56)
And so you basically went from just this approach of like there’s a lot of time where people first work with ayahuasca, they kind of become like, ayahuasca is everything and it’s going to fix everything for me. And then over time, as you kind of educate yourself, you approach more of a holistic approach and start, sorry, you adopt more of a holistic approach and start combining different practices. So what is…
Sam Believ (15:23)
What is that perfect formula for you at the moment in both ayahuasca work, mushroom work, ⁓ yoga meditation, what other modalities that you use and what is the formula? ⁓ What do you think works best?
adrian (15:41)
Yeah, and that’s, you know, it’s different for everyone, but honestly for me, the one thing that has been my greatest integration tool has been ongoing therapy. Okay, froze.
adrian (15:56)
Can you hear me?
Sam Believ (15:58)
Yeah, I kind of lost you for a second. Don’t worry, we’ll cut it out. ⁓ Just start replying again.
adrian (16:05)
Yeah. So my, for me, my biggest form of integration has been ongoing therapy. And I’ve been doing it for about five or six years. That’s been like the biggest thing that I’ve been committed to. ⁓ and then also, you know, being in nature, I just moved to the mountains. ⁓ So really, you know, reconnecting with Pachamama, being connected to the earth and being able to make space for that. Cause think before I was so disconnected from all of it. So nature is my biggest, also teacher, my biggest guide. So.
adrian (16:34)
being able to reconnect with that movement as well, being able to move my body, being able to, you know, even if I don’t feel great, going for a walk also helps me support and like integrate. Yoga is also one of the things that I’m getting back into, but has been really helpful because before I used to struggle with a lot of anxiety and with yoga, learning how my body can, can slow down with the breath, knowing how I can move energy. And that to me has been really grounding for me. I also work with HAPE.
adrian (17:03)
as well. So I love working with HAPE. It’s been a great kind of part of my practice to help me ground, to connect, to clear energy. ⁓ I would say those are some of my things that I do currently for myself. And also, ⁓ community. Community is medicine too. I’ve realized that we don’t have to do this by ourselves, and we shouldn’t. So I’m very intentional about those that I do. ⁓
Sam Believ (17:19)
So.
adrian (17:32)
and I do let in and also be vulnerable and then connect with others that are on this path too.
Sam Believ (17:40)
So basically paying more attention to your body and doing things that bring you back to your body and just being conscious. I think you talk about it, about how to live in your heart and not in your head and kind of introspecting. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?
adrian (17:58)
Yeah. So like I was saying about anxiety, like I used to live from my head and that to me felt like a prisoner where I was always thinking about what the next person is going to say about me, what they’re doing, when all of that. So it was really. Just like the like not being able to be in the present moment because I was always like trying to figure things out or trying to work things out in my mind that I realized I wasn’t being present. So working with medicine.
adrian (18:28)
has allowed me to really go down a couple inches and live more from my heart space. And I really tune into that. Like, how do I feel around certain people? How does this feel in alignment with what my values are? Does it feel like I’m living with integrity or being at a place with, you know, that brings me joy. A lot of it has been like being able to connect with my inner child. And that to me, like being able to live in that space, live from the heart, live like my inner child liked to, has allowed me to.
adrian (18:57)
live a lot more compassionate, a lot more fulfilling life than had I been living in my head where I was. And now I see that with a lot of my clients that I work with of how a lot of us do operate from our headspace and how, you know, our mind can tell us things and we are not our thoughts, but a lot of us don’t know that because we’re so programmed or that’s what we know how to be in. So being able to work with medicine allows us to tap into that a little bit more.
Sam Believ (19:28)
So when you say connecting to your inner child, a lot of people will be like, what is he talking about? How does it look practically? ⁓ Where does it come from? Does it come through medicine or maybe it’s some form of special meditation that you do? So for somebody who is listening and they’re wondering what does it mean, can you give some practical advice?
adrian (19:54)
Yeah, so for me, inner child work is really, you know, being able to connect with the little version of us, the younger version of us. A lot of times that’s also where the trauma is too. So it could be, you know, for me, when I started really focusing on this path, looking at certain parts of my life from my childhood that were, you know, traumatic and being able to really sit with those parts of me, being able to integrate it, being able to bring compassion and know.
adrian (20:22)
let my inner child know, my little me, ⁓ that those things that happened to him were not his fault and there’s nothing wrong with him. ⁓ And, you know, even apologize to him. I’m sorry that had to happen to you. I’m sorry that the adults in your life didn’t have the capacity to really show you the love that you deserve and being able to tell him that. ⁓ And that to me was really healing in a way because I needed to hear that. And I still need to hear that. My inner child still has to hear that I’m here for him, that I love him.
adrian (20:51)
that he’s, you know, he’s there. And I feel like when I can tap into my inner child, I tap into creativity. I tap into presence, ⁓ playfulness, and be able to live again from the heart where we can see things more at all, just like children can. We can get back into that childlike state as adults as well. We still have that inner child. Like if you put Legos out, I’m going to play with them and I’m going to have fun and it’s going to be amazing. I’m just going to forget about the world. That’s what for me has been like.
adrian (21:20)
reconnecting to parts of myself, like the inner artist, that I didn’t, as an adult, I wasn’t doing things for play or creativity, because I was just like very like, okay, I’m an adult, now I gotta act like an adult. ⁓ And realizing that that’s when I felt more disconnected. Once I started to bring more playfulness into my life and fun, that’s when I start really living a life that feels more joyful for me.
Sam Believ (21:44)
Yeah, play is very important and we need more of that. ⁓ I’m a big fan of inner child work. What we do at Lawara actually, before the ceremony we give people breath work and meditation to put them in the right mental state. And one of the meditations we do is inner child meditation that focuses you on that. And I think it kind of primes a lot, lots of people’s experiences.
Sam Believ (22:11)
to go and meet that in a child and it’s very profound. Another one of those is forgiveness. ⁓ Another thing you talk about is you mentioned it earlier, shadow work. ⁓ How does that look for you?
adrian (22:29)
Yeah, and that’s a question. It’s a lot of what I work with my clients too. I feel like shadow work is also connected with inner child work. Cause like I said, it’s looking back at events or traumas and things that we might have. So for me, shadow work is really being able to connect with the parts of ourselves that we reject, the parts of ourselves that we might not want to look at. They’re there, the parts that, you know, society might deem as not worthy or whatever it is like the shame, the guilt.
adrian (22:58)
the ⁓ disappointment and all of that that we have within ourselves, but we might not be able to be connected with it and then it will manifest in other ways. It might come out as behaviors or actions or thoughts or different things. That’s what was happening in my life. I wasn’t connected with my shadow, with my trauma, and it would manifest into depression, into anxiety, into…
adrian (23:25)
⁓ drinking and, and trying to escape. And once I really sat down and I was working with a practitioner and we were able to go back in my childhood and really see things that affected me. And I didn’t know they affected me and even generational trauma as well. And it was really difficult work. Like it’s not for the faint of heart at all to be able to come face to face with parts of ourselves that we don’t want to look at, ⁓ but.
adrian (23:53)
the only way to heal it is to feel it. And I found that once I integrated my shadow, I became more, once I brought it to the light, if you will, ⁓ I felt more complete. And that part of me is still there. There are parts in my life where I kind of forget about it and then it comes back and creeps. And really it’s about doing a dance with our shadow self and knowing that that is a part of us too. And that part of us needs love as well.
Sam Believ (24:23)
Is that what you mean when you say parts work in your bio it mentioned parts work or it’s a different thing?
adrian (24:31)
Yeah, it’s part works too, yeah, exactly. By being able to connect with the different parts of ourselves. Shadow is one of them.
Sam Believ (24:39)
Yeah, that’s shadow work is something that I’ve heard about and I even interviewed the guest specifically on it, but I think I it’s a hard concept to wrap your head around. It’s kind of like you have this many different versions of you inside of you that you need to sort of make peace with. ⁓ But as yeah, I’m very curious about that maybe because my process never never took me there just as of now.
Sam Believ (25:09)
So let’s go back to the psychedelics. You work with mushrooms primarily and I’m sure you’re very experienced. What are your thoughts on macrodosing versus microdosing?
adrian (25:24)
Yeah, I mean, most of my work now revolves around microdosing and I’ve seen they both have their role in someone’s journey. I personally, if I were to go back, I would have loved to start off with microdosing before I’ve gone to ceremony. And I work with a lot of clients that are new to all of this. ⁓ And they asked me like, should I…
adrian (25:51)
microdose before macrodose and I always say yes because it allows you to gently work with the medicine mushrooms and then things so Allows you to build a connection to build trust a relationship and you can also do some inner work with it microdosing by itself is a very powerful tool and very powerful modality to to others I’ve seen people that have had great experiences with anxiety depression getting off the pharmaceuticals and
adrian (26:21)
with microdosing alone. It allows us to be more present with ourselves, more connected and be more in tune and also can regulate our nervous system. And it is also more accessible to people because we don’t have to go to a ceremony, a retreat. We don’t have to fly out anywhere. You can do it in your normal day to day. You’re not really having to go on a long journey. And I find that…
adrian (26:46)
Microdosing can help bring ceremony to our day to day lives. Intentional microdosing, of course, you have to do with intention and be respectful and have, you know, the right framework to work with it. And I do tell people like, well, microdosing is very effective. ⁓ Also knowing its place as well. And it’s good for the here and now and being more in a body and being less in the mind, ⁓ but for the deep lifting, looking at trauma, looking at like the big heavier.
adrian (27:16)
that’s more suitable for a macrido or a ceremony. And I do let people know that as well.
Sam Believ (27:23)
You mentioned pharmaceuticals. Do you have any experience, ⁓ you know, SSRIs versus microdosing of mushrooms? What’s better and how is there a comparison between two?
adrian (27:40)
Yeah, I personally have not been on SSRIs, but I work with a lot of people who have. ⁓ And I’ll say this, SSRIs, they can and they do save lives. If someone is really struggling and they’re in a really difficult situation, they can save their lives. But it’s where then, you know, we start becoming dependent on it. And that’s what happens with SSRI. You can’t just go off of it. You have to wean off of it. And sometimes,
adrian (28:09)
When life happens, they up the dose. ⁓ So, you know, life is going to be happening and then something, you know, drastic might happen. And then the doctors will say, okay, we’ll give you some more and they give you more. And then years go by and then you just upping the dose every time something happens. ⁓ So from what I’ve worked with, with my clients, they tell me like, it doesn’t really solve anything. It just kind of puts a bandaid on things. And there’s also side effects. They have.
adrian (28:38)
you know, loss of interest, they don’t have much motivation. It kind of numbs you in a way. They even they have problems with their libido. It starts affecting a lot. And I’ve even seen like with couples and they’re not being intimate and it starts to like bringing other problems and then they need more medications to help, you know, mask the side effects. So then it’s like, OK, we’re just putting on medications that they’re not really addressing the root cause of what’s happening. ⁓ And with microdosing, it can do that.
adrian (29:07)
It allows us to be more present with what is and allows us to be more introspective so that we can look at things in a different way. And also we’re not becoming dependent on the medicine. You can pause at any time. You can stop at any time. ⁓ What SSRIs do is they inhibit our serotonin receptors. Psilocybin works with serotonin. So we’re getting a natural serotonin boost. So people are feeling their baseline is being raised. They’re able to feel more happier.
adrian (29:36)
and be more connected and more present with working with microdosing. And also we’re not doing it every single day because of the tolerance buildup with SSRIs. You are dependent on that every single day. You have to take that pretty much. And if you, if you stop, there could be consequences that so anyone that’s on it, they have to wean off of it with their pharmaceutical provider. So I just feel like working with the microdosing allows people to have.
adrian (30:05)
more control, more agency, more space within themselves as opposed to numbing it up.
Sam Believ (30:14)
It’s very applicable for us because as you know, ⁓ to come to an ayahuasca retreat, people need to quit antidepressants, you know, a few weeks in advance because there are adverse side effects. ⁓ How would you go about helping somebody get off antidepressants and instead replace it with microdosing of mushrooms? Do you have any protocols perhaps or any tips for the people in that position?
adrian (30:43)
Yeah, that’s actually a really good question, Brian, because that is true. Like with ayahuasca, people can’t be on SSRIs and that’s why mushrooms are more accessible as well for people that are on them. ⁓ And with anyone that comes to me that wants to start microdosing, I do let them know that this is going to be a process for them because they can’t, with microdosing, it’s a sub perceptual dose. So we’re not really feeling anything like going on a trip or anything. ⁓
adrian (31:11)
with SSRIs is it’s a blunt end. They might not feel it as much. So A, they might need a little bit higher dose. And then also I tell them like, I’m not a medical professional, so they have to work with their provider to have a plan to wean off of it, but they could microdose while they’re weaning off of it. ⁓ And most, for most people that are weaning off of it, they have a more supportive protocol, five days on, two days off with a little bit higher dose so that, and,
adrian (31:41)
I just talked to a client yesterday actually, who she’s been microdosing for a month now and she is now weeding off her SSRI. She’s done this before, but without microdosing, it was really hard for her. She said I was not okay and I had to go back on it. This time around, she’s like, I don’t feel a lot from the medicine, but I am able to wean off of it and I’m not having the same reaction that I had before. And I do feel more at peace and more calm.
adrian (32:11)
I was like, okay, great. Then keep doing it. And she, you know, so her, her plan is to eventually wean off of it completely. And is now using micro dosing to help support her where before she did that and it was, she was not okay. But obviously everyone’s different, ⁓ but I find that micro dosing can support those that are getting off of it and can help me off of it. And then with the awareness that they’re not because of the medicine that they’re on medication that they’re on, they’re not getting the full effects of the micro dosing.
adrian (32:40)
because they can’t feel the full effects of it. ⁓ And people know that. So knowing that, okay, it’s gonna be really trusting your own innate ability to heal and also with medicines and having patience as you’re coming off of this pharmaceutical.
Sam Believ (32:55)
So speaking of feeling it and not feeling it, have you ever personally had a microdosing experience that was more than that and you maybe had a bigger connection?
adrian (33:07)
Yeah, when I when I first started micro dosing I was not weighing it out and I would just like kind of eyeball it and I remember This is back when I lived in LA and I worked in LA. I took a little I just I would eyeball Okay, sure. I’ll take this and then I was in my office and I was like Feeling something. I’m like, crap. I was like that’s not a micro dose and then like I remember like wanting to scream like I was like I had a meeting and I was like, I like I don’t know how I can
adrian (33:37)
be doing this and it actually made it like my anxiety worse and I got really like triggered. ⁓ And so that’s when I realized like it is dangerous to microdose without precise weighing and having something that you know how much it is eyeballing it is not going to work. It needs to be, you know, a dosage that you know what it is. It has to be consistent. And yeah, so that happened. And I know now like not to do that anymore.
adrian (34:07)
So I was like, I have them weighed out, I know what it is, and I’m a lot more intentional about it.
Sam Believ (34:15)
I’ve had a similar experience once when I eyeballed my microdose. I don’t regularly microdose, but there were periods of time when I experimented with it. ⁓ And I just luckily saw I don’t work in the office. I work here in the countryside. And I just laid in the grass for a bit, cried a bit, and it made me feel much better. It’s interesting. Mushrooms make me cry a lot.
Sam Believ (34:42)
There’s something about it, but not like sad crying, but just like crying and some kind of release. ⁓ Let’s talk about breath work. You know, let’s say somebody is, they took a microdose and now they’re losing control and they’re about to scream. ⁓ Can breath work help them calm down and ease their anxiety?
adrian (35:06)
Yeah. Yeah. So that’s actually one of the biggest tools that I utilize with my clients and also with my own self. Like the breath has been, ⁓ it’s the number one anchor. And I know even in ceremony, like sometimes when I’m sitting at ceremony and things start to get really intense, I’m usually not breathing. It’s very shallow. Or then I start to really connect, slow down, bring it back, come back into my body. And I’m like, ⁓ okay. I got this. So same thing with microdressing. I do tell people that like,
adrian (35:35)
If for whatever reason, if it feels too intense for you, start to do some breath, start to breathe, start to do some controlled breathing, cause it’s just slow down and that can, it’s going to help you come back. It’s going to help you kind of ground and center yourself. And also with breath work in particular, like I also, ⁓ practitioner for breath work, ⁓ I’ve seen breath work is a powerful modality where people can have a psychedelic experience on breath work as well. So it really just.
adrian (36:04)
tells us like how the breath is a tool as well. It’s its own medicine and we don’t have to get high on anything else. We can just use our own supply.
Sam Believ (36:13)
Any ⁓ specific breath work for somebody to calm the anxiety in the ceremony? Any specific routine or technique?
adrian (36:25)
Yeah, I think one that I’ve been practicing is ⁓ box breathing. So it’s like you do four counts of like inhale, four counts, holding for four counts, then exhale and kind of do like a box in that way. That one’s really good. I like these nouns for grounding, but no, in ceremony, I’m not going to remember all that. I just need to know to breathe. It’s like, just tell myself, like, are you breathing? Are you intentionally breathing? Taking three deep breaths can make all the difference.
Sam Believ (36:56)
And speaking of breathwork and speaking of anxiety, you have suffered with social anxiety, right? How was your healing journey from that specifically?
adrian (37:07)
Yeah, that was actually, that held me back the most in my life. And I realize now, like my dad used to have it. So I think it’s a generational thing. But before I, I remember my first ayahuasca ceremony, I was more afraid of introducing myself and my name than drinking the cup. When they were like doing this, ⁓ like everyone’s name, I was like, ⁓ crap, I’m almost next. I almost had like a heart attack.
adrian (37:36)
I don’t know what it was, I just had a lot of fear of being seen, fear of being able to speak my voice. So I did have a stutter as I grew up and I would often trip over my words. I wasn’t able to speak very clearly. And that to me was very debilitating, especially when I knew that I had a calling to be a leader or to be someone who was speaking in the room. So for me, working with Ayahuasca,
adrian (38:03)
really helped me kind of see that clearly. And I remember there was one ceremony where she’s like, okay, we’re gonna get rid of this social anxiety thing that you have. And I was like, really? It’s like, yeah. And then I just felt an energy and then I just started purging and I started like purging away my fear, my doubt, my insecurity and allowing it to be in the bucket. And I even like,
adrian (38:31)
there was this part of me that was doubting him. Like, is this, like, I don’t know if this is going to work. It’s like, ⁓ you still have some more fear in you. Okay, let’s get it out. And it just like, it was just incredible how like I was thinking it and she was working with me to purge this out of myself. And it has been a process. Like it wasn’t like immediately after that ceremony, I could speak in front of a cloud, a crowd, but then I started putting myself in situations where I could.
adrian (38:58)
you know, be able to speak, be able to talk to others, be able to project and really use my voice. And then I started seeing like, ⁓ actually this is not that bad. So I started practicing being able to do it. And now like, I can speak on this podcast. I can speak to people on social media. ⁓ I host retreats and I’m the one that’s kind of has to be able to speak with confidence and clearly, ⁓ otherwise people are not going to feel safe. ⁓ And so that really has been a big journey for me.
adrian (39:27)
And that’s why I really empathize people that have social anxiety, because I know how scary it is. And like I remember in college, ⁓ my communications class was the worst class that I just did not want to do it. And before, when I was in college, I would cope my social anxiety with alcohol. And then when I graduated, I would still cope with alcohol. So I would have to go to events or things and have to drink to get liquid courage. And then that turned into an alcohol problem where…
adrian (39:54)
I just felt like I needed to always do that, to be able to function and be able to do things. And then that’s kind of where I walked this command and started really being able to see like where my social anxiety was coming from. And I was able to look back and what happened was when I was young, ⁓ I grew up as Spanish speaker, native Spanish speaker. And then I was here in America. ⁓ So a lot of times when kids have like two languages, they have a lips. So I would kind of…
adrian (40:23)
not say my S’s correctly. And I remember there was a kid in elementary school who told me like, he’d make it funny. I was like, hey, why do you sound stupid? Like, why do you sound dumb? And from that moment, it just ingrained it into me that I sound stupid. And then, so from then on, ⁓ my biggest fear of social anxiety was I was afraid that everyone was thinking I sounded stupid.
adrian (40:49)
So it sounds silly, but it actually traumatized me and I didn’t realize it until afterwards. ⁓ And then, you know, doing this work, I’m like, actually, you know, you’re, you’re a smart intellectual being and your voice is medicine and being able to speak your truth is important. And that kind of allowed me to really work past that. And, you know, now being able to speak in front of others, which, which was again, like really hard and like not something that I would wish on anyone, but.
adrian (41:19)
Yeah, that’s kind of been my journey with social anxiety and speaking.
Sam Believ (41:23)
Thank you for sharing your journey. I think some people with social anxiety might find it very inspirational because it’s very important to be able to communicate and get your voice out there because otherwise you wouldn’t be here and nobody would hear you. It’s such an important thing to have that outlet. ⁓ And you’re not the first person to say they dread sharing more than they dread the ayahuasca itself because we do word circles at our retreat. So…
Sam Believ (41:51)
before we even start drinking medicine, people share their stories and a lot of people say exactly that. I would say two people per group on average would say, you know, they dread the sharing part and some are very, in a very debilitating way, ⁓ they barely speak and maybe they say one sentence or so. And for me, it’s beautiful to observe how over the week, let’s say if it’s a one week retreat, four ceremonies, as they work with the medicine, they start opening up and by the end of it,
Sam Believ (42:21)
they’re like, they’re just like going for it. And it’s hard to even imagine that they had social anxiety to begin with. So it’s a very quick fix, you know, in a way, of course, afterwards ⁓ it might come back and there is certain comfort they create with the group. But I’ve seen that psychedelics can be extremely helpful. ⁓ But talking about, you know, word circles and sharing, ⁓ it’s…
Sam Believ (42:49)
I believe it’s a big part of the healing that comes from the group. ⁓ Can you talk to us a little bit about that and what do you think is the importance of the community in the work with plant medicines?
adrian (43:01)
Yeah, I think it’s for me, it was very healing to be able to sit in a community, to sit in a circle, to be able to be vulnerable, be able to share my voice, to hear others, to hear their experiences and be able to connect. Like there are people that ask me like that. Some people do like a private ceremony and they’re ready to do that. But I prefer being in a group setting. It feels to me.
adrian (43:29)
ancestral, feels like this is what our ancestors used to do, sit in circle, sit in community, be able to process, to share, to integrate as a whole, because we’re not meant to be doing this alone. And when we able to, when we see the collective healing that happens in a ceremony, and we’re able to speak to that, be able to hold and to witness and to be held and to be seen, there’s a certain level of like magic that…
adrian (43:56)
You know, it’s unexplainable and I know you know what it means, ⁓ but it just, to me, community is medicine and I’ve healed. A lot of my healing has been from these retreats, from these circles, being able to connect with others. And even though, you know, I may not talk to them now, they have been an integral part of my life and I will always hold that.
Sam Believ (44:19)
Yeah, definitely. A lot of people come to our retreat and our groups are an average of about 25 people. And some of them are like, yeah, I don’t really, I’m not sure so many people and people like they really avoid people. And by the end of the week, they say that the people is the best part and the groups really bond. That’s another thing I observed with plant medicines. There is some kind of magic that happens as we all take off our masks and start to vulnerably share.
Sam Believ (44:48)
Plus, obviously, the magic of the plant medicines and then all of a sudden the bonding just starts to happen and it’s so quick that by the end of the week there are people that it feels like they’ve been friends forever. And I like this phrase, you know, the best way to make friends as an adult is to go to an ayahuasca retreat. What do you think about that? What’s the process? What’s the underlying process?
adrian (45:14)
I love that. I’ve never heard that before, but I have, you know, I’ve sat in many different circles and groups. I love learning from different facilitators, obviously if they’re aligned. And I’ve had different parts of my life where, you know, I’ll meet someone at a ceremony and I connect with them a lot more deeper than somebody I’ve known for a long time or somebody that I, you know, I can meet elsewhere because in this space we are authentic.
adrian (45:43)
We are real, we’re vulnerable, we’re raw. We see each other purge. That’s like really vulnerable and raw. Like, you know, when else can you feel like, you know, letting go of your traumas in front of somebody else and having, not being like ashamed of it. And I think being able to have that connection with someone in ceremony is really special because in ceremony, we are all energetically connected. We’re all in that space. If somebody cries, we feel their pain. If somebody laughs, we feel that joy.
adrian (46:13)
And same way, so that’s something that is a very special connection that I think you can only feel in that space. So it makes sense to be able to connect with someone very deeply. Now, friends that I’ve sat with in ceremony, like, I feel like they know a part of me that nobody else does and vice versa. I know a part of them that people won’t know.
Sam Believ (46:35)
I think in a way it’s like soldiers going to war together, you know, you’ve been through so much together, you rely on each other and that creates that extra quick bonding. So, but it’s beautiful to observe in our world, which is so disconnected and we’re so lonely. It’s beautiful to see people connecting and forming friendships. And one of my dream for the future of my, of Lawara, the project is to build a community. I like to say you come for Ayahuasca, you stay for the community.
Sam Believ (47:05)
have people just live here and work and be healthy and be productive and just be in the community and sit by the bonfire at night, kind of like in the good old days when we were still living in a tribal society.
adrian (47:18)
Yeah. And I like that. I don’t know. I was going to mention this, but I don’t know if you can relate to this, but I feel like you say you mentioned going to war and you know, at the, ⁓ when it gets intense and ceremony and like when I hear, you know, I have friends that I drink with and when, when I hear one of my friends purging, ⁓ I’m like, yes, like, ⁓ yes. Like I’m like really happy for them. And then I’m like, wait, in the real world, when someone’s like throwing up, are we celebrating it? But here we know that they’re healing.
adrian (47:49)
We know that they’re letting go of things and we’re able to cheer them on. Same things like when I have a really good purge, my friends will be like, ⁓ yeah, that was a good one. It’s funny.
Sam Believ (47:49)
Mm -hmm.
Sam Believ (48:00)
Yeah, because you understand that they’re not just vomiting, they’re actually releasing and you’re happy for them. Yeah, that’s another common one that people really celebrate each other’s processes. Well, Adrian, I think it ⁓ was an interesting and entertaining episode. ⁓ Before we wrap it up, is there any last recommendations or last words you want to tell to the audience and also where can they find more about you?
adrian (48:31)
Yeah, so to anyone listening to this, no matter where you’re at on your platelet message or where you’re just starting or you’ve been in ceremony, just a reminder that you are the medicine and it’s always within you. So, you know, always know that. ⁓ And where you can find me is my Instagram is lozano .flows or my website is lozanoflows .com.
Sam Believ (48:53)
You are the medicine Adrian and I’m going to tag your Instagram to the show notes and thank you so much. It was, it was a lot of fun.
adrian (49:03)
Thank you, Sam.