PODCAST EPISODES

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In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ has a conversation with Sebastian Hernandez, a performance coach specializing in sacred masculinity, energy work, and tantra.

We touch upon topics of:
– Sebastian’s journey from the corporate world to working with plant medicines (01:18)
– Defining and embodying sacred masculinity (13:07)
– Exploring conscious vs. unconscious sexuality (04:04)
– Understanding chakras and their impact on energy (07:29)
– The significance of tantra and sexual energy in healing (19:18)

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats, go to http://www.lawayra.com.

Find more about Sebastian Hernandez at Instagram: @IgniteSelfMastery or listen to his podcast Ignite the Spark Within on all major platforms.

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:00)

and something more PC.

Sam Believ (00:04)

Hi guys and welcome to Ayahuasca podcast as always with you the whole assembly of today I’m interviewing Sebastian Hernandez Sebastian is a coach performance coach he teaches sacred masculinity energy tantra and a lot all the kind of interesting stuff Sebastian welcome to the show

Ignite With Sebastian (00:28)

Ed, by Sam. Thank you for having me, man. Thank you. Thank you. Looking forward to having this conversation.

Sam Believ (00:32)

Sebastian is also a writer, a podcaster, a speaker, a bit of everything. Is that a good description, Sebastian?

Ignite With Sebastian (00:40)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. One of my dream goals when I was a young kid was to be a Renaissance man. And so I would say part of being a Renaissance man is you get to be a little bit of everything.

Sam Believ (00:52)

That’s a good one, yeah. ⁓ Like there’s space for that, knowing a bit of everything so you can combine the uncombinable. Sebastian, ⁓ so before we begin talking about the topic of this episode today, talk to us a little bit about your history and how did your life bring you into the work with plant medicines?

Ignite With Sebastian (01:02)

and

Ignite With Sebastian (01:18)

Yeah, man. Thank you for that question. The origin story. So I would say I took my initial leap was in 2015. So prior to that, I was working in the corporate world. I was building a financial agency. And while it was good, it wasn’t my purpose. And I found myself in this crossroads of like really getting connected to like not knowing who I was, what my purpose was, or like really like what was the purpose of being here.

Ignite With Sebastian (01:46)

And I knew that that wasn’t going to be sustainable. So I had to take a leap and really discover that. And 2015, I did. I took on that leap and it was a discovery of identifying what are my core values? What do I actually believe? What do I want? What do I want to achieve? And it’s been an eight year process, man. It’s been an eight year process since that. And in that process, it’s been a lot of discovering, a lot of

Ignite With Sebastian (02:12)

of peeling of the onion, discovering different parts of myself. And in that process was not only being grounded and identifying what it meant to be grounded in who I was, but then also moving into the paradigm of, all right, well then how does plant medicine support me, right? And all the alliances that come with plant medicine. And then from there moving into this conscious sexuality, which is then how do I manage my sexual urges?

Ignite With Sebastian (02:39)

from a place that’s empowered and not lustful and depleting. So it’s been a journey. It’s been a journey of eight years of really navigating, of walking these paths, of encountering different mentors and teachers that have guided me, men and women, that have taught me things that I didn’t know were my blind spots and gave me extra tools and practices to implement, which now I have this day -to -day lifestyle that I…

Ignite With Sebastian (03:06)

love and I feel empowered around my sexuality and I get to empower others around their sexuality. So in a nutshell that’s a summary.

Sam Believ (03:18)

So you said the finance was not your purpose. So what is your purpose right now?

Ignite With Sebastian (03:23)

Yeah, empower world -class leaders. Like that was very clear for me that like I may not be the one that changes the world, but from a place of being a coach that empowers people to really step into their greatness, like I am meant to empower people that are gonna make a difference and impact on a world level. And it’s just like, I know that like world -class people that are out to make a world -class impact and I get to remind them of who they are for themselves and the world. And that’s fucking cool.

Sam Believ (03:55)

That’s a good one. So you mentioned conscious sexuality. Let’s talk a little bit about that. What is the difference between the conscious sexuality and the unconscious one?

Ignite With Sebastian (04:04)

Yeah, man, absolutely. I think it says it in the name itself, right? Like conscious, like how conscious are we of our sexuality? How conscious are we of our relationship to sexuality? Like how conscious are we of how we relate to sex and how that impacts our day to day life? How that impacts our relationships? How that impacts our communication? How that impacts our lifestyle? Like…

Ignite With Sebastian (04:31)

How aware are we of the sexual energy component? How aware are we are of the sacredness to sexuality and utilizing sexuality as a means to elevate our connection to spirituality, to elevate or transcend our states of consciousness, right? And so, conscious sexuality is where we start to now dissect and dialogue and interact with what does it actually mean?

Ignite With Sebastian (04:59)

Right? And so instead of being like, all right, well, this is exactly what it is. It’s really more from this framework of, are we now bringing consciousness to something that we’ve been programmed on what it’s supposed to be? Yeah. And so it’s really questioning the programming around our sexuality. And so therefore we start becoming more conscious of it.

Sam Believ (05:23)

Cool, cool, and you mentioned sexual energies. I remember something you said to me that really I found very curious that the healing energy is a sexual energy, like it’s one and the same. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Ignite With Sebastian (05:37)

Yeah, absolutely. Well, so I guess to go back a bit on that, right, is understanding that we have our chakra systems, right, and our chakra systems are going to be able to generate the energy, each specific one, a specific component, but when they’re all aligned and they start to circulate through our body, right, our magnetic field starts to expand. And that energy field, think of it like if you’ve ever seen Dragon Ball Z.

Ignite With Sebastian (06:05)

Right? We’re like Goku starts to like Chi up, right? He starts to like increase his energy or that sexual energy. That’s the same Chi energy that we’re talking about. And that’s the same energy that we can actually utilize to heal, right? And healing from a component of utilizing that magnetic energy to be able to bring light, to be able to bring healing. Yes. And this really goes into the intentionality behind our energy.

Ignite With Sebastian (06:33)

Right. How are we utilizing our energy? What are we creating? What are we manifesting? Right. And so, yes, absolutely. Sexual energy can be a healing modality, but sexual energy can also do the opposite. So let’s not get it confused and think that all sexual energy is healing energy because there is sexual energy that can be actually poison to other people and to ourselves. Right. And so it’s being able to understand again, how conscious am I?

Ignite With Sebastian (07:01)

of my sexual energy, my sexual intentions, yes, my sexual pleasures and having awareness of all of that has an impact on our environment, on the people that we get to influence, that we get to share our space with.

Sam Believ (07:19)

So you mentioned chakras, you know, for those who don’t know, give us a little tiny course on chakras, what they are and… Yeah.

Ignite With Sebastian (07:29)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, chakra. So the chakras, I’m sure there’s been a lot of there’s there’s now it’s it’s widely spread, right? It’s a relatively common component methodology belief system, right? But it’s also a framework. It’s a structure that allows us to engage with our energy fields or specific energy points in our body that relate to specific parts of our life. Right. And so if we start with our root chakra, our root chakras was going to give us our sense of stability.

Ignite With Sebastian (07:56)

our sense of groundedness, our sense of belonging, right? When we think about a root, we think about a tree, right? And a tree, ⁓ the longer that roots are deeper within the ground, the more solid that tree is gonna be to be unmessable with, right? No matter what hurricane winds come, right? The winds of life, like well -rooted tree can sustain that, right? And so our root shock was just gonna give us the stability to actually walk in this, on this route.

Ignite With Sebastian (08:27)

there we move up to our sacral. Our sacral is where we now start to turn up the heat, right? And that heat is turned into our passion, into our sexual energy, into our creativity, into our imagination, right? Into our the component that starts to expand, right? That becomes explosive. From there we move it up to our solar plexus. You see our solar plexus is what gives that massive energy expansion direction.

Ignite With Sebastian (08:53)

And once we have direction with that energy, with that energy, we can now utilize that sexual energy and direct it towards our manifestations, towards our habits, towards our actions that we need to be able to create things with. Right. And so this is where we get our willpower from. From there, we move up to our heart chakra. Our heart chakra is where we now get connected to our emotions, where we get connected to the unconditional love component, the capacity to forgive.

Ignite With Sebastian (09:22)

the capacity to release anger, to release hate, to release judgment, to release all of these low frequency energies that keep us stuck and alone and disconnected. Yes. So our heart chakra allows us to connect and to be able to be in that love space. From there, we move up to our throat chakra, our truth. Yes. Our authenticity, our capacity to speak the truth and know how to discern when to

Ignite With Sebastian (09:52)

be in silence because silence is just as important. Yes, from there we move up to our third eye. Our third eye is our capacity to see beyond the here and the now, to see beyond just our eyesight, but be able to see dimensionally. It’s like having a big, huge movie theater within your forehead where you can see the past, the future, the present, the different possibilities, your connection. And from there we move up to our crown shot.

Ignite With Sebastian (10:20)

where this is where I believe that we get to actually wear our crown chakra. And there’s been people that have experienced actually feeling a crown shot, something on your top of your head, like a crown, when you’re fully tapped into that. And that crown chakra is believed to give you access to source. Where you now have access to source. You don’t need a Pope, a priest, a shaman, a healer. You’re it. You have direct access to source.

Ignite With Sebastian (10:48)

And when you’re able to connect to source, then you have the capacity, the responsibility to be king or queen of your universe. Cause you now have all systems online. Your chakra system is fully connected. Your Kundalini has awakened. You are now transmitting electricity, right? And so again, this is a, this is a component or a belief system that allows us to have a framework to expand on the energy work and how to utilize that. So

Ignite With Sebastian (11:17)

In a nutshell, yes, in a summary, those are your chakra systems and you can imagine plays hand in hand with conscious sexuality because we’re now bringing more mindfulness to our energy, more mindfulness to our attention on where we’re moving our sexual energy.

Sam Believ (11:36)

So how does one know if let’s say a chakra or if you are out of balance or the flow of the energy, how does one navigate that?

Ignite With Sebastian (11:46)

Yeah, well, just a matter of identifying, bringing awareness and observation to your current state, right? Like, how do you feel currently? Do you feel empowered? Right? Do you feel weak? Do you feel strong? Do you have mental clarity? Do you have willpower? Do you are, do you, can you love freely? Do you feel like you’re connected to God? Do you feel that you can see beyond the here and now? Like those are the questions you see, this is where the chakra system now gives us a framework to start questioning like, all right, what are my root chakra?

Ignite With Sebastian (12:16)

Do I feel safe? Do I feel like I can actually support myself? Right? Or am I in survival mode? My sacral? Do I feel that I have a healthy relationship with my sexual energy? Or is there a dependency with porn and having to release that lust? Yeah? My solar plexus. Do I have willpower? Or is my willpower like goes out the window? Right? Like, where are we? So this is the inquiry. So

Ignite With Sebastian (12:45)

the chakra system allows us to engage all right well where am I where’s my state of mind and what chakra should I be focusing on clearing and realigning does that make sense am I making sense

Sam Believ (12:58)

Yep. Cool. So Sebastian, let’s talk about sacred masculinity. What is, what is sacred masculinity?

Ignite With Sebastian (13:07)

Ep, sacred masculinity, what is sacred masculinity? So sacred, well first of all, let’s look at the word sacred, right? So sacred is derived from the world, from a place of sacredness, of reverence, of something holy, ⁓ yes? Something that’s been worked on to be of light, to be of service, yes? And so when we talk about the sacred masculine, is this component of masculinity that has done the work to actually be that safe space.

Ignite With Sebastian (13:36)

to be able to be that healing space that’s done the work to be grounded, to be centered. Yes, that’s done the work to be able to recognize where there’s a responsibility to be taken. Yes, and to really step into and embody a masculine energy component so you can have that masculine container when every year around people, people feel your presence and they can feel safe in your presence and they can feel your solidarity.

Ignite With Sebastian (14:05)

in your presence, they can feel your groundedness. Right? And so that sacred masculinity more than this destination, it’s an embodiment to bring aware and start practicing on a daily basis every present moment. Right? So that’s what I would relate to as a sacred masculine.

Sam Believ (14:24)

So let’s say how does one how does one embody the sacred masculinity as a man?

Ignite With Sebastian (14:32)

Yeah, well, first again, it’s awareness, right? Awareness and awareness is an awareness and awareness is observing. Where am I not? Where am I not being authentic? Where am I not taking responsibility? Where am I not being the man I know I have to be? I know I can be, I know I want to be. Where am I not? Right? That’s the place. Where am I not taking responsibility? Where am I lying? Where am I cheating? Where am I giving the least amount? Where am I not giving my best?

Ignite With Sebastian (15:00)

Where am I being, where can I look in areas of my life that people don’t feel safe around me? How does my family feel around me? How do my friends feel around me? How does the community feel around me? And so these are the deep questions that we have to start engaging with, right? Which takes on this perspective of it’s no longer what can the world and what is the world doing to me, but rather how am I responding to the world and how can I

Ignite With Sebastian (15:29)

be of service to the world yes and so it comes from this container of me me take take and give to me to ooh I got me how can I be of service and being of that service allows you to really step into that masculine container

Sam Believ (15:48)

And that’s a good explanation. ⁓ So I’m gonna announce to people that me and Sebastian, we are going to be organizing a sacred masculinity retreat, which will happen October 3rd to October 6th. And this is a retreat for men only, where we will drink some medicine and then we will work extensively.

Sam Believ (16:16)

exactly the topics we’re talking about today. ⁓ So, Sebastian, why should somebody consider coming to a sacred masculinity ayahuasca retreat? Like who would benefit from that?

Ignite With Sebastian (16:33)

Yeah, absolutely man. So, and again, this sort of give a little bit of backstory. So this is actually something that you and I created out of the participation of this last sacred masculine program that you and I got to work together, right? And so what initiated from that was a 90 day program that was fully focused on re -bringing awareness to our relationship to what it means to be a sacred masculine, right? And to really bring a mirror.

Ignite With Sebastian (17:01)

to where we haven’t fully been honoring that. And so to be able to add to that component, we realized that one of the things that was really missing was a way to be able to integrate all of these teachings in a way that’s applicable, but can also be taught firsthand and in live would be so much better. So we came up with this idea of like, well, how about we actually create a four day experience where we get to take everything that we just talked about in the last 90 days.

Ignite With Sebastian (17:29)

and bring it into a four day container where we get to now talk about, but more than talk about, we now get to implement and we now get to actually practice and engage with the exercises that we were just talking about. ⁓ So while yes, it’s powerful to have completed the 90 day program. It gives you context. Obviously you got 90 days worth of content, right? To be able to now put into a weekend, right? You can still go with no.

Ignite With Sebastian (17:57)

content with no background into this and go and have an incredible experience with a brotherhood with a community of men committed to doing this work and doing what work exactly doing the work necessary to show up as men that are powerful that are grounded that are centered and that are safe to the community that are safe to the world and safe does not mean not dangerous yes I know Jordan Peterson talks about a lot about that when it comes to men and the dangerous component

Ignite With Sebastian (18:26)

So safe men does not mean safe men that are not capable of harming, or rather on the contrary, it’s a brotherhood of fierce men that are willing to do whatever it takes to keep a safe container, which is very different, right? And so being able to step into that greatness, step into that power is part of that sacred masculine. So we get to do that in a four day container.

Sam Believ (18:52)

Okay, so there will be one ayahuasca ceremony to help people open up and connect with the energies, the chakras and everything you mentioned about what else are we gonna do, how it’s gonna look like. ⁓ But yeah, so let’s answer this and then I have the next question ready for you. So how is it gonna look like? What are we gonna do? What are the activities to get people excited?

Ignite With Sebastian (19:18)

Okay, yeah, so, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So like you did mention, we are gonna be integrating ayahuasca into this. I think it’s gonna be a really powerful component, right? Because oftentimes ayahuasca, it’s under the framework that we’re going there to heal something, yes? And while there will be healing, the context that we’re gonna be utilizing ayahuasca with is a bit different, right? It’s specifically seeking guidance on what it means to be a sacred man.

Ignite With Sebastian (19:45)

what it means to be an honorable man in today’s day and age, right? And so with that, we’re going to be then taking the experience that we got from my Alaska and incorporating different exercises that I’ve been curating so that we can have an incredible experience, a transformative experience where we get to actually move emotions and feel experiences more than just talk. Yes, talking will be necessary and talking will be a critical part of the experience because in talking,

Ignite With Sebastian (20:14)

We get to share and we get to give expression to emotions and thoughts and ideas that we may not have had the platform to do so. So being able to have an audience of men listening to you and engaging with you and supporting you is going to be powerful for the transformational work within a brotherhood of communities of men. Yes, on top of that, being able to hold one another accountable and the different activities and exercises is only going to enhance the experience. So yes, there will be dialogue.

Ignite With Sebastian (20:43)

Yes, there will be communication. Yes, there will be a circle. But yes, there’s going to be a lot of different exercises that’s going to help move that energy and move and leave the experience with a practice. Right. The idea is that the things that you learn in these four days, you get to go back to your home and actually continue to implement and integrate and share with the people in your life.

Sam Believ (21:08)

So what kind of issues in their life can those guys that attend expect relief from? ⁓ For those who are listening and they may be asking themselves, ⁓ is it right for me? ⁓ So what is the improvement going to be like? ⁓ What are the issues people are going through that can get help with this event?

Ignite With Sebastian (21:33)

Yeah, so pretty much who is this event for? What type of men is this for? Right? So this is for men that are committed to actually doing something about their current state of life. Right? And so they feel stuck in whatever way, shape or form, whether it’s in their sexuality, whether it’s in their confidence, whether it’s in their self -esteem, whether it’s in their lack of purpose, whether it’s in their lack of direction, whether it’s in their lack of community, their lack of brotherhood, their lack of camaraderie. Right? And so if you’re a man,

Sam Believ (21:37)

Yeah.

Ignite With Sebastian (22:01)

that is seeking to develop themselves and gain more access to yourself, more access to tools and techniques that are gonna help you evolve yourself, not just as a man for yourself, but as a man that can carry out powerful relationships with other men and with women in your life, right? To be able to increase your confidence, to be able to increase that sense of sacredness within yourself.

Ignite With Sebastian (22:27)

and leave with practices, right? And so if you want to start changing your habits, if you want to change, maybe there’s some level of porn addiction, right? And so this is going to be learning specific techniques so that you can increase your stamina and learn how to move your sexual energy in a way that gives you power instead of depletes your power. And more importantly, you get a community that you get to continuously evolve with and work with as time evolves and progresses.

Sam Believ (22:58)

What about relationship status? If somebody is having a hard time finding relationships or has problems in their relationships, would it be helpful?

Ignite With Sebastian (23:08)

Yeah, absolutely. Right. Because when we look at problems with relationships or our inability to attract a relationship, we really are looking at there’s a lot of limiting beliefs or there’s a good opportunity to identify, all right, like what’s going on, right? In your self confidence, right? How do you relate to yourself? What’s going on with your magnetic field? Are you attracting those type of relationships that you want? Are you attracting the type of women that you want? Right. And if not, well, what’s in the way?

Ignite With Sebastian (23:36)

So part of this weekend is also being able to harness in as a man what’s in the way or what’s the next step for me to evolve as a man so I can be that attractive man that I know I can. So I can attract the type of relationships that I want. So I can attract the type of opportunities that I want. Right? And so even if you don’t have a partner right now, this is all part of your growth, right? Sacred sexuality, sacred masculine.

Ignite With Sebastian (24:04)

Right? Before we can start engaging with partners on the outside world, we got to have a very intimate, powerful connection with ourselves. And this is what it is. It’s really establishing a connection with ourselves so that we are fully ready, at least prepared, to start engaging in relationships with our loved ones.

Sam Believ (24:26)

So now the question is why are you the guy to teach to teach them this tell us a little bit about your your specific stress strength point strong points and Yeah, you’re your story of mastering it yourself

Ignite With Sebastian (24:45)

Yeah, so why me? Well, I would say first and foremost, because I’m living proof of it, man. I’m living proof of what’s of what happens when we start to do the work, specifically around the breath work about the moving the energy of being able to have multiple orgasms without ejaculating, being able to serve women and have them experience the level of safety that they require to be able to blossom. Having testimonies of women that I’ve been able to serve and men that I’ve been able to help serve women and their partners.

Ignite With Sebastian (25:14)

Right? And so there is a track record of me not just learning about this in books, but rather me being out in the field, working this, doing this stuff, actually integrating it into my day to day life. Hence the reason why I’m able to have an incredible, I would say intimate life where I have my tantric lovers and by all means it’s a hundred percent authentic and it’s transparent and there is no need to lie. There’s no need to pretend. There’s no need to, to be something that I’m not.

Ignite With Sebastian (25:43)

but authentically being able to attract the type of relationships that I want, quality women that are up to something incredible in their life and being able to have authentic relationships with each one without any fluff, yes, without any lies, but full transparency, empowered, empowering myself and empowering the women in my life. And so hence the reason why I talk about this and I have the authority to talk about it is because I’m living it.

Ignite With Sebastian (26:12)

because I’m experiencing it, because I get to fully get to enjoy and embrace it. And I see the power and the magic that opens up for people in doing this work. In my Nine City tour that I did two years ago, that was a great eye opener. That it made me realize that there’s a lot of people that are very disconnected from their sexuality. And sometimes we forget, as people that are actively in this world, we forget the gap between what we know

Ignite With Sebastian (26:41)

and what we think people should know and what they actually know. And so this is where I’m here to help minimize that gap and that everyone, all men can start doing this type of work, but it’s going to take practice. It’s going to take a discipline. It’s going to take actions to start integrating into our daily life. And you and I have talked about this before. One of the difficult or the challenges that a lot of men have in doing this work is that it’s one of those things that you have to believe it until you see it for yourself.

Ignite With Sebastian (27:11)

Yes. And oftentimes people are in the, well, I need to feel it before I can believe it. Right. And that’s not usually how it works. You have to actually do the practices and do the practices so that you can become more attuned with your energy so that you can become more sensitive to the subtleties. But if you have none of that connection, it’s going to be very hard for you to actually tap into that. And so someone that’s been programmed with porn with visuals,

Ignite With Sebastian (27:39)

They’re gonna have a hard time to believe in this type of stuff They’ll see somebody like me shaking and having with fucking orgasm and they’re gonna be like, he’s faking it ⁓ that’s bluff. ⁓ that’s fake. And I’m gonna be like sure whatever I get to experience it right and so this is where that component is that there’s a level of wanting to know this information and willing to go through the process long enough till you actually are like, yes

Ignite With Sebastian (28:09)

Now I get to experience this. And here’s the thing. Once you start experiencing energetic orgasms and you start entering into that world, yeah, the primal sex is cool, it’s good, it’s delicious. But there’s something that the energetic sexual component has that the primitive one just is missing. And once we get connected and tapped into that spiritual component, ⁓ man, do we want more. And that only makes us more hungry.

Ignite With Sebastian (28:39)

to learn this and hence the reason more avid about our discipline and our practices.

Sam Believ (28:47)

Great, so it was, I know your story was not always easy for you. It wasn’t always the rainbows and butterflies and the genital orgasms. ⁓ Tell us about your story of achieving it and also why did Ayahuasca tell you not to have sex for two years?

Ignite With Sebastian (29:06)

Yeah, so, and this is something that, yeah, we’ve talked about, right? We talked about how along my journey, like before I got into the whole sexual work, like I was with ayahuasca and I was going through my own depression, through my own anxiety. I was going through my own darkness. And as I was working and going through my own healing, it got to a point where ayahuasca was just like, all right, good. You’ve done a lot of work, but now you have to work on your sexuality energy and no more sex. And I was like, wait, what? What you mean no more sex? What do you mean?

Ignite With Sebastian (29:35)

And it ended up turning into two years of no sex, of no porn. And after those two years, when I went to go drink ayahuasca, I think those were like my fifth time in those two years, ayahuasca finally goes, okay, congratulations. You can start working with sex again. You now know how to say no to sex. And to me, I was just like, I didn’t put one and two together until after that ceremony when I realized it’s like, wow.

Ignite With Sebastian (30:04)

I really can’t say no to sex. Like I can actually have a woman naked in front of me and I can actually have the self control to say no. Now in the time it was, I had a reason and the reason was Ayahuasca told me I couldn’t do it. Right? But now it’s just like, ⁓ now it’s evolved into something deeper. It’s evolved into something more spiritual, but it’s become my decision. It’s become my choice and it’s come from my own.

Ignite With Sebastian (30:33)

my own perspective of sexuality, right? And so it’s been a process of discovering and uncovering my limiting beliefs, my shames, my guilt, my sexual desires, my sexual temptations, ⁓ my kinks, my fetishes, and realizing, wow, where’s their shame? Wow, where’s their guilt? Wow, where am I still feeling not fully empowered or fully self -expressive around my sexuality?

Ignite With Sebastian (31:02)

Where do I still have this anxiety? Yeah. And so part of that is doing all this type of work. And so it’s been a process of having different mentors pull those things out of me and show me like one of the experiences that was very profound was actually working with a Tantric. With a woman that’s trained in the arts of tantra and being able to work with her. She took, she helped me to uncover a lot of my blind spots.

Ignite With Sebastian (31:32)

She helped me realize the importance of breath work when it came to intimacy. She was the one that taught me about our chakra systems and really integrating that into our actual movement, really integrating movement sound, sound, sound, right? Like all of these components that sometimes as guys are like, wait, what, why is that even important? Right? And so I’m very blessed and very honored to all the, to all the different mentors and teachers that have come along.

Ignite With Sebastian (31:59)

Right? There’s a specific maestro, Briananda, right? He was the one that gave me, in a way, by him being himself and me seeing how in the middle of the day at the grocery store, you’ll be buying something and out of nowhere, he’s just like shaking like from an orgasm. I’m like, bro, what are you doing? ⁓ And he’s just like, bro, I’m just excited, man. I’m just an excited man. I’m constantly excited.

Ignite With Sebastian (32:28)

And it’s like literally like he has so much energy that he’d just be like shaking and people around him would start to shake and they’re like, what’s going on? Right. Because there’s so much sexual energy. Right. And so unless I actually saw somebody living that and that just being part of their normal day to day, it was just like, what? I didn’t have a context that that was normal, but now that’s normal for me. Now I’ll be doing something and I don’t know where I’ll just start shaking.

Ignite With Sebastian (32:57)

or somebody around me, I barely touch them and they start to shake. And it’s because of that accumulative energy that we start to create. And there’s now the mental capacity, the mental bandwidth to know that it’s okay, that it’s normal, that that’s actually congruent. You see, sometimes it’s our belief system that stops us because somebody might say, that’s weird. Well, I don’t want to do that. That’s fake. Or that’s this, or that’s that. And so guess what? They’re closing themselves up.

Ignite With Sebastian (33:27)

And so again, part of doing this work is more than the practice, is also dissecting how we relate to sex and all the shames and all the stuff that comes along with it, that come along through our own experiences as we grow up.

Sam Believ (33:45)

So you mentioned Tantricas and Tantra. ⁓ What is Tantra and regarding the event that we’re organizing, will there be any Tantric exercises? Will people learn about Tantra? Talk to us about that.

Ignite With Sebastian (33:59)

Yeah, so Tantra is a philosophy which means to weave together, right? And to weave together, we’re weaving in a lot of different modalities or context around orgasmic energy, around a lifestyle, because that’s really what we’re talking about is a lifestyle, right? And so when we talk about breath work, when we talk about chakras, when we talk about Buddhism, when we talk about Kama Sutra, when we talk about Kundalini, when we say any of those key words, that’s all inside of the umbrella called Tantra.

Ignite With Sebastian (34:29)

That’s all of it. All of it is inside of the umbrella called tantra, right? And so tantra isn’t this specific religion or, or, or doctrine, but rather it’s an open dialogue of what it can contain and the component of orgasmic life, seeing the orgasmic vitality in all and connecting to our transcending duality. Right? And so yes, we’re going to be talking about components of it without necessarily speaking specifically about

Ignite With Sebastian (34:59)

Tantra we’ll talk about Tantra right we’re gonna be talking about breath work. We’re gonna be actually doing the movement We’re gonna be doing the sounds we’re gonna be doing a lot of the exercises that are all inside of that context But I refuse I’m not gonna say I’m a tantric teacher because I haven’t fundamentally learned the the scripture right of Tantra no This is where I say conscious sexuality because it allows me to to play in that realm a lot easier

Ignite With Sebastian (35:27)

without this expectation of I need to know all these Sanskrit words.

Sam Believ (35:35)

Well, I think it sums it up pretty nicely. Any last parting words as into why people should join our event and then maybe tell us a little bit about where people can find more about you and get to know you.

Ignite With Sebastian (35:52)

Yeah, so last minute words. Look, if you are not having incredible orgasms, if you are not producing incredible orgasms for your lovers, for your lover, lovers, if you don’t feel fully empowered around your sexuality, if you’ve made it financially, you’ve done it, you’ve won, you’ve escaped the rat race.

Ignite With Sebastian (36:19)

but you’re still home alone and you’re still paying for company, ⁓ then this is where you should be at. There’s a four day experience for you to really tap into that piece that’s missing or it hasn’t been fully developed yet. And this is where we get to do that work so that you can go back and really step into that man that you know you are, grounded, centered, safe for women, for your community, for yourself.

Ignite With Sebastian (36:49)

connected to your divine purpose and connected to source, right? And so that’s who, that’s who, that’s the last thing I need to say about that. I want to say about that. In regards to me, where people can find me, you guys can go to my Instagram page, Ignite Self Mastery, or you can check out my podcast at Ignite the Spark Within. And that’ll be on all the platforms as well. Sam mentioned I am an author. If you have Audible or Amazon, you can pick up my book, It Takes a Leap.

Ignite With Sebastian (37:17)

And that is a book focused on what it means to take a leap into the abyss in order to really fulfill that mission and that purpose you were designed to create and fulfill. So that’s that’s how you can find me.

Sam Believ (37:31)

Thank you, Sebastian. So you mentioned that if you made it, then you can come. But if you haven’t made it, you can also come because the retreat is very affordable. It’s only $5 .95. You will have both ayahuasca. There’ll be one ayahuasca ceremony, but there will also be a lot of training, a lot of coaching. ⁓ We have this beautiful retreat venue here in Colombian mountains with a creek and a pool and a gym. There’ll be good food. ⁓ So…

Sam Believ (37:59)

It’s all going to be included. ⁓ So guys, definitely come over. I’m excited about this event myself. I have been working with Sebastian for about three months now, him coaching me and trying to understand myself as well. Also my desires and inhibitions and finding my authentic self. It’s been very interesting. ⁓ But from my desire to work with him one on one and see it in person really get

Sam Believ (38:29)

get to connect to those energies was born this idea for this retreat. And I think for those of you here that are interested and maybe calls you, it could be a good interlap between the Ayahuasca work and the other modalities because Ayahuasca shows us glimpses of energies and connections and it’s not easy to bring it back to your life. So this is what Sebastian will do. He’ll teach us frameworks.

Sam Believ (38:58)

and we’ll do practical exercises and hopefully become a little bit more masculine and a little more sacredly, a little more sacred and become sacred masculine and body would be the best masculine versions of ourselves and be better partners, better friends, better fathers, better lovers as Sebastian said. So all of that. And yeah, it is a bit of a prohibited topic I would say, but

Sam Believ (39:27)

when you are here and when you are at this retreat, there will be a lot of transparency. Some guys will learn a lot about me that I generally don’t talk about and we’ll be sharing deeply. We’ll be really in it together and I’m really looking forward to see who joins us. ⁓ So hopefully, hopefully that’s right for you and come over. And once again, as you can see by the price, it’s not a…

Sam Believ (39:55)

It’s not a money grab operation. ⁓ It is mostly comes out of interest for us to work with this ourselves. ⁓ And yeah, come over guys. If you’re feeling cold, if you think that there is something you can improve, this is a retreat for you.

Ignite With Sebastian (40:14)

Thank you, thank you Sam. Thank you for your work and for your space and I look forward to being able to co -create some magic at La Huayra.

Sam Believ (40:16)

Thank you.

Sam Believ (40:25)

Thank you, Sebastian. Great episode. I’m looking forward to the event. Thank you for sharing. And guys, you’ve been listening to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, we do the whole assembly of, and I will see you in the next episode.

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ has a conversation with Spring Washam. Spring Washam is a renowned healer, Buddhist teacher, and visionary leader from California. She has been practicing Buddhism since 1999 and is an experienced ayahuasca facilitator. Spring is also the founder of Lotus One, and she combines Eastern spirituality with Amazonian traditions in her work.

We touch upon topics of:

– Spring’s journey into Buddhism and ayahuasca facilitation (00:04 – 07:28)
– The intersection of ayahuasca and mindfulness practices (07:44 – 12:12)
– How ayahuasca contributes to healing and spiritual growth (20:10 – 25:25)
– The challenges of building an ayahuasca church (42:41 – 45:14)
– The role of psychedelics in healing societal issues like racism (31:50 – 34:16)

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats, go to http://www.lawayra.com

Find more about Spring Washam at springwasham.com

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:04)

Hi guys and welcome to ayahuascapodcast .com. As always with you the host, Sam Belyev. Today I’m going to have a conversation with Spring Washam. Spring is a healer, she’s a teacher, she’s a visionary leader. She’s from California, she’s a Buddhist teacher. She’s studied Buddhism since 1999. She’s also an ayahuasca facilitator and author and the founder of Lotus One.

Sam Believ (00:31)

journeys. ⁓ Spring, welcome to the ⁓

Spring@springwasham.com (00:34)

Thank you.

Sam Believ (00:36)

bring you, even reading your description and your bio, it’s very clear that you have a very unique perspective and unique take on both world of Eastern spirituality and Amazonian tradition. ⁓ Tell us your story, how did you end up being that person and combining those two modalities, what in your life brought you to this ⁓

Spring@springwasham.com (01:02)

Yeah, well, first of all, I would say suffering and this exploration of pain and suffering is really what triggered everything. as a, know, growing up, I grew up in a really difficult situations and just all the drama of living in an urban community and, you know, father’s gone and all this trauma in my family. as a young growing

Spring@springwasham.com (01:31)

young person and as a teenager, I was really interested in psychology, actually. Like, why is there so much suffering here? Why is everyone fighting? And so that kind of got me on a path of self -reflection because I kept being like, I think this all has to do with our minds. You know, there’s something going on with our thinking. I always made that connection as even as a small child, like, what is wrong with their mind right now? They’re acting from this place. So

Spring@springwasham.com (02:00)

naturally that got me on the path of meditation at a very young age just to kind of start to understand my mind. And first I was Hindu for a while I was practicing and learning how to meditate. There wasn’t at this time this was like maybe 30.

Spring@springwasham.com (02:19)

years ago, right? There wasn’t a lot of information like there is now. Now we’re really lucky. We’re like in the golden era. There’s apps, there’s classes, everything’s there, free, online, you know? You almost have to try not to pay attention, you know, make some kind of effort. But what happened was I heard about a retreat

Spring@springwasham.com (02:42)

It was in the desert in Southern California and it was led by a Buddhist teacher who’s very well known named Jack Kornfield and psychologist and just really instrumental in bringing a lot of Buddhist philosophy to the West. He founded two big meditation centers, one I’m still connected with called Spirit Rock Meditation Center in West Marin. That’s like right outside San Francisco.

Spring@springwasham.com (03:10)

And I went on, I didn’t even know who was leading the retreat, but I went on my first retreat and that really got me deeply connected to Buddhist philosophy.

Spring@springwasham.com (03:20)

like how suffering is created. And that for many years, I guess I was more of like a yogi on that path. I spent years practicing, meditating, traveling around the world, studying with Buddhist teachers in all different traditions, Tibetan tradition and Theravada tradition and Zen tradition, and really trying to understand the nature of suffering and freedom and liberation. And I did that for many years.

Spring@springwasham.com (03:49)

and I was teaching classes and programs, but yet there was always still this layer that I felt like I could not untangle, right? It was like a baseline unhappiness. Like everything was great on the outer side, but there was this feeling that, of disconnection somewhere in the roots of my being that was like, it was painful and I was still sad. And yet I was supposed to be this teacher for everyone else and I was out there and I’m sure people can

Spring@springwasham.com (04:20)

with that, they’re, you know, we’re all just like, I guess, wounded healers or something until we’re all liberated. And it reached a kind of crescendo peak moment. And on a retreat, I kind of had like a disassociation when I got lost in a whole bunch of unresolved trauma.

Spring@springwasham.com (04:41)

And nobody in that time knew how to deal with trauma in the Buddhist Eastern world. They were like, just go back and meditate, just continue. And we’re so much more trauma informed now. mean, every day we’re learning huge, huge amounts on how to work with trauma, how to be with it, how to support others, as you probably know from your work. But during this kind of dark night of the soul and

Spring@springwasham.com (05:07)

Everybody was counting on me. I heard about ayahuasca from a psychologist and they said, hey, this could really help you. And I was so desperate at that time. I was really open. You know how you get when you’re just at the bottom. You’re like, what drink this vine from the jungle? ⁓ okay. And I got invited to a small ceremony.

Spring@springwasham.com (05:28)

This was over 15 years ago. It still very new for a lot of folks in the north even. And I did a ceremony and I had just such the classic everything that you could want out of an ayahuasca journey I had in an eight hour period. I mean, it was like love and pain and suffering and insight. And what I noticed for me is that there was a lot of Buddhist iconography and messages and I was using my

Spring@springwasham.com (05:59)

to be with the intensity of the experience in the moment. And then from there on, I was just in a deep connection with ayahuasca.

Spring@springwasham.com (06:10)

And I immediately got during that ceremony, should go to Peru. So I started going to Peru and this started a whole journey of me spending months in the Amazon and living with shipibo healers. And I eventually even spent a year studying, dieting. But all the time I was always utilizing my Buddhist practices of mindfulness, awareness, love and compassion. And I saw that I was sort of

Spring@springwasham.com (06:40)

creating.

Spring@springwasham.com (06:41)

insight and awakening, I was moving faster, you know, and that I think that’s what was so helpful. I was so grounded during those early days where everyone was screaming and freaking out and there wasn’t a lot of containment all the time. And I started to see how I was using it as kind of like ultimate meditation. And I was opening these places in my mind where I was starting to understand what great masters were talking about when they would talk about interconnection

Spring@springwasham.com (07:11)

and presence and karma and, you know, so everything began to make sense on this quantum level. And then that’s how my journey really started. So, you know, a few years after that, I started going, I want to have Buddhist based.

Spring@springwasham.com (07:28)

ayahuasca retreats where we drink a lot of medicine, we study a lot too to try to support what we were understanding the insight and to understand who we are faster.

Sam Believ (07:44)

Thank you, Spring. Thank you for sharing your story. It’s a very interesting one. ⁓ Mine was a little bit opposite. I started with Ayahuasca straight away and then I started discovering meditation and everything else. I ⁓ know I ⁓ pick up from different traditions, different things that kind of work for me. Interestingly enough, my chief facilitator at the retreat right now ⁓ is spent some few months in a Zen Buddhist monastery and he’s very…

Sam Believ (08:12)

grounded in tradition. So ⁓ I personally believe exactly the same thing you’re saying that ⁓ there seems to be this amazing match between ayahuasca and ⁓ mindfulness traditions. ⁓ It’s like the analogy I like to use both with mindfulness and integration, which honestly is a very similar thing if you look at it, is that ayahuasca, ⁓ if you like mining, ⁓

Sam Believ (08:42)

Ayahuasca is like a dynamite and meditation or integration is like a pickaxe and a shovel. So ⁓ if you just keep exploding over and over again, it’s messy. If you just keep with the shovel, it’s very slow. So but if you go like explode and then shovel, explode and shovel, you just have this ⁓ optimum ⁓ rate. So ⁓ as you mentioned, Buddhism and suffering. ⁓

Sam Believ (09:11)

I was come, do you think so? The ⁓ one of the things about Buddhism, Buddhism is it set out to, know, and the world suffering. So do you think I was can help with that somehow? Can it talk to us about

Spring@springwasham.com (09:25)

Yeah, well, I think it’s so interesting. I love it. More and more people who maybe started with ayahuasca and then after years of practicing, they realized exactly they need to integrate, right? Like the explosions over and over, you can, you know, spin out and that and so that the meditation is just, it’s how we integrate this into our being. And, and I had the same thought when I was teaching for years in these Buddhist communities and teaching

Spring@springwasham.com (09:55)

mindfulness. was teaching insight meditation mindfulness and I would see people that weren’t really progressing. Right. They would come in. I’m a teacher. They would share with me what their meditation was like. And it was like they weren’t growing anymore in that practice. It was like they hit a plateau. They hit a wall. And then and the people who are just doing medicine, medicine, medicine, they lack to kind of ground a clear path and ethics.

Spring@springwasham.com (10:24)

which without groundedness, without awareness and without ethical conduct, you’re like loose, you’re like that you’re raw dynamite. You could explode even though you have some wisdom, you’re learning, but you don’t have a way to process it. You don’t have a path, right? In the Shipibo lineage, there was no path of liberation at the end. There was a math, there was a road, but it wasn’t clear where it was going. okay, you’re going to be healed.

Spring@springwasham.com (10:54)

but healed how? What is ultimate healing look like? How many ceremonies do we do here before, you know, we are quote unquote done on some level. So.

Spring@springwasham.com (11:06)

I think ayahuasca can help us because the ayahuasca, I always tell people when they ask me this question, can ayahuasca enlighten you? I always say no. It can show you the obstacles. It’s like you’re walking on a path and there’s these giant rocks and boulders in the way, right? And you need to remove them, but you don’t know how to do it. Ayahuasca could come and say, okay, I can remove this one. I can remove this one. But now you have to stand up

Spring@springwasham.com (11:36)

You have to walk the path yourself. You have to get up and you have to do the practices and you have to be aware.

Spring@springwasham.com (11:42)

So I think on some level ayahuasca people have drank it for many years will realize it doesn’t enlighten you, but it is a vehicle that will help tremendously. And then at the end of the day, you’re a sovereign being and you must choose which path and you must choose how to spend your life. Do you want to be aware or not? Ayahuasca can’t just make you aware. It’s like there’s a choice factor that I think many of us are understanding. Hence we are moving.

Spring@springwasham.com (12:12)

more into what are the liberation practices. Okay, let’s go to the ancient schools now.

Spring@springwasham.com (12:18)

Let’s look at how we can combine these because ayahuasca removes the blocks, but then there’s a lot more you have to do. It’s like a 50 % relationship. You know how everybody wants, it’s like 50 -50, ayahuasca as your doctor will give you 50%. Now you have to do the other 50 and you need to put that in. Otherwise, even with ayahuasca, I’ve seen people plateau, get stuck and stop drinking it if they can’t do their 50%.

Sam Believ (12:48)

It’s like you have a friend and you go out and he always makes you pay for everything and then eventually he’s like ⁓ two, three dates later you’re like, come on, like it’s time, it’s time. So you stop going out with them. So I ask is also like this, you I’ve been giving you homework and why you keep coming back? Where’s the progress, you know, and it gives you a bad trip. It’s like, here you

Spring@springwasham.com (12:52)

Exactly.

Spring@springwasham.com (13:12)

Well, yeah, because it’s showing you where you’re resisting. And exactly, it’s like any great teacher. They love their students who are doing what they’re asking them to do. Ayahuasca is not just a doctor, but a very,

Spring@springwasham.com (13:25)

profound teacher. And if you only want to take the certain parts out of it, if you just want the excitement or some kind of tripping experience, you will not always get that. So sometimes, yes, but other times it’s the work that you need to do in your life. It’s the forgiveness, it’s opening your heart. It’s…

Spring@springwasham.com (13:48)

knowing how to sustain awareness, right? How to work with your mind skillfully, how to see what is true and what is not. You can’t just always depend. Exactly. It’s like a, it’s a relationship when you enter into ayahuasca. I always tell people, this is a living spirit. You’re going to enter in and I always look at ayahuasca as the most profound teacher, but one of my most profound teachers. I have other profound teachers and they work together.

Spring@springwasham.com (14:16)

Right? It’s a team. What do they say? It takes a village? Yeah, it does right now, especially in this dark time. We need all the tools, all the masters, the ones that are in human body and the spirits, you know, we need all of them as our community. And if you do the work, if you’re willing, they’ll show up for you.

Sam Believ (14:40)

Yeah, absolutely. And you mentioned ⁓ integration or like lack of direction with the indigenous traditions. I was thinking about it and I think what happens there is, for example, here in the beautiful Colombian countryside, when people come over, they’re like, you know, I don’t, feel like I don’t even need to meditate anymore because just being here and looking at the nature already is like a form of meditation. So you get

Sam Believ (15:05)

20 little meditations throughout the day. So I think that what happens to the indigenous people is because they’re still in this natural environment, they just naturally meditate all the time because they’re like looking at the leaves and the greenery and the sounds of the river flowing. It’s literally, you know, when we meditate now we turn on like this apps with music and it’s like, that’s what we’re trying to imitate. ⁓ Maybe that’s why they don’t need to, but as opposed to like Westerners, you come here and you have this beautiful experience and then you’re

Sam Believ (15:35)

back to the concrete jungle with all the sort of scary noises and ugly looking ⁓ buildings and stress. Of course you’re like, you know, what the hell. ⁓

Spring@springwasham.com (15:47)

Yeah, that’s a that’s a really, I absolutely agree with you that being in nature is naturally very meditative, just turning off your phone and going in nature, you naturally become present. And I think that that’s a that’s a really, really important.

Spring@springwasham.com (16:04)

insight and I agree with you a lot of indigenous people they’re they’re practicing and they also don’t have the same kind of wounding that the westerners have. It’s a very different type of psychology. It’s a very disassociated state with a lot of westerners. You know they don’t recognize their impact. They don’t see interconnectedness right. They have to go somewhere in this environment to kind of remember it but it’s we’re very forgetful right. We forget the moment

Spring@springwasham.com (16:34)

leave, know, we remember some things, but so that’s why these practices mindfulness that word I love that word mindfulness, because one translation of it is remembering. It’s like we really have to remember who we are right now because it’s apocalyptic times that we’re in, you know, and everything that we depend on could start crumbling. And then what do you have left? You got to remember who you are to remember you’re connected.

Sam Believ (17:04)

Yeah, we live in uniquely difficult times. ⁓ But as you said, you know, we’re lucky because we also have uniquely amazing tools available. ⁓ Like 50 years ago, people didn’t have ayahuasca or at least ready access to it or even meditation. So that’s why a lot of people ended up drinking alcohol or taking drugs that are not really that productive. So we have unique challenges, but also unique tools. And I guess the guess is

Sam Believ (17:34)

The question is who wins, ⁓ the people that aim for ⁓ mindfulness and like restoration, love and peace, or the people who want to kind of, even though they don’t want it consciously, but people that are subconsciously destroying the world. ⁓ But talking about mindfulness, right? At Lawyra, for example, we ⁓ get people to do… ⁓

Spring@springwasham.com (17:51)

Yes.

Sam Believ (18:02)

We do yoga every day, every second day, which is nice. ⁓ It’s also a form of integration and mindfulness. And then we do ⁓ breathing exercises and guided meditation right before every ceremony to put people in that state where it’s easier for them to open up. In your opinion, also as a facilitator, what is the best use of, ⁓ let’s say, meditation and different mindfulness techniques ⁓ around… ⁓

Sam Believ (18:30)

ayahuasca ceremonies or during an ayahuasca ⁓

Spring@springwasham.com (18:34)

Yeah, well, I agree with you. On my retreats, I was doing for many years 14 days and we would do six ceremonies. So that was a lot. we would always for the hour before the ceremony, we would do practice. be a very short little Dharma talk, a half an hour sit. And then we’d have a short break before we would continue.

Spring@springwasham.com (18:58)

into the ceremony space, but we set it like a pre -ceremony meditation. And then, you know, for me, I would also give Dharma talks throughout the retreat and point people to what is mindfulness, what is embodiment. And also during a lot of our ceremonies and even in the middle, you know, it could be a little bit hectic, but I would ring a bell and remind people to connect to their breath and their body.

Spring@springwasham.com (19:25)

Like come back. You are in your body. Whatever is happening, know that you can be with this. So we would be training people on all of the tools of mindfulness, how to feel our feelings, how to be with difficult experiences, how to be with pain physically and emotionally. And we would just utilize all of these different…

Spring@springwasham.com (19:52)

practices and we would try to create a very mindful atmosphere. Embodiment, that’s what I would focus on a lot, was the first foundation of mindfulness, which is be in your body. It’s a big one.

Sam Believ (20:10)

Thank you for that. ⁓ As a, it’s a question I like to ask anyone who sort of works with ayahuasca as a facilitator, especially given your unique ⁓ holistic point of view, ⁓ what do you, how do you explain how ⁓ does ayahuasca healing happens? What is that? What is that process from your understanding?

Spring@springwasham.com (20:11)

Cough

Spring@springwasham.com (20:37)

Well, I think what it helps us do is really, you know, for me ayahuasca is like, you know, I always tell people it’s the root medicine. It’s a root vine and it works on root chakra, root problems.

Spring@springwasham.com (20:55)

⁓ for me, ayahuasca is deeply helpful for people who want to heal issues in their families, right? Their birth, their mother, their father, like we’re healing our family trees with ayahuasca. And these are the root chakra is the hardest one to get down because it’s so deep in us, right? Root problems, we can’t access it. So what’s beautiful about ayahuasca and all of these plant medicine is they give us access into

Spring@springwasham.com (21:25)

deep layers of our unconsciousness. What we can’t always see all the time, we live very on the surface, we often have to, we don’t have time to unpack these huge wounds.

Spring@springwasham.com (21:36)

that emanate in our body, you trauma. think one of the biggest things is, is Zioasca really helps us to release trauma so we can access these deeper levels of our unconsciousness. And, you know, not only energies that are stored in our body, but in our emotional body, you know, in our light body, or whatever subtle body, right, these things are so buried. So it gives us an opportunity to unpack everything that we’re not seeing in

Spring@springwasham.com (22:06)

daily life. And this is very valuable because when you start to work on those deep buried subconscious wounds, it frees you up in every other area of your life, right? You live with more happiness. So it is a doctor, you know, and for me, it works on all the chakras, but I really feel like the root system, identity, who we are, mother, father, great, great, great grandmother, where we were born,

Spring@springwasham.com (22:36)

where who you know

Spring@springwasham.com (22:39)

what is in our family that’s passed down to us, things that we just don’t see. These medicines, particularly ayahuasca, helps us to not only see it, but to work with it consciously, right? We bring it up into the conscious mind and then there we have to do the work to really sort through the tangles of what it is, whether it’s some kinds of abuse or, you know, but we know that we live in it with people who are very

Spring@springwasham.com (23:10)

I mean, they’ve been a world full of trauma and this stuff is buried in our bodies. So for me, I always describe ayahuasca. That’s one of the aspects of ayahuasca. There’s so many, you know, depending on what levels you’re on. I don’t like to say levels, but there are different stages and experiences. There’s no end to the mystery of this medicine. It’s consciousness itself unfolding, you know?

Spring@springwasham.com (23:38)

So different stages, I experienced very different journeys, which I love. It’s never boring. I’ve never once been bored in an ayahuasca ceremony. I’ve done hundreds, and so led people. But this is, I think, the main thing is this unconsciousness and bringing us into a conscious state.

Sam Believ (24:01)

Thank you, that’s a really great explanation. And then what you’re talking about levels and never getting bored, that’s really true. I tend to really obsess about a topic for maybe three to four years and then I move on with ayahuasca and psychedelics in general. There’s no ever grasping of completeness of it and I keep getting amazed by how unique each ceremony can be. And ⁓ at Lawara our motto actually is connect, heal, grow.

Spring@springwasham.com (24:15)

you

Sam Believ (24:30)

which is like you come, you connect first, then you heal and then you grow. ⁓ this connecting and healing process can take, you know, few months and few years for some people, depending on how big your trauma is. ⁓ But the growing part, never ends. I think it’s like you can be doing it for 100 years and you probably will still be unlocking new levels of this limitless spiritual exploration. ⁓ So… ⁓

Sam Believ (25:00)

The level at which you are and I assume that you’ve been drinking ayahuasca for a while now, can you talk about it now? What are you personally feeling ⁓ mostly? Is it mostly now like lectures or is it ayahuasca teaching you how to help others or what is your experience with the medicine

Spring@springwasham.com (25:25)

Yeah, well, you know, again, I hear you on the never.

Spring@springwasham.com (25:29)

ending. It’s just like pages in a book that they just keep flipping them. now I know one thing about me is I used to want to get to some kind of definitive ending. Like at this stage, it’ll all be done, right? After this ceremony and this purge, ⁓ I went through this big thing. Now this is healed. And then it’s like another big thing is on the horizon. It’s just like, my God, there’s no end. So now I’m really in a very surrendered state around all of that.

Spring@springwasham.com (26:00)

It’s like, right, it’s here. The journey is right here, right now. It’s not about trying to get to the end of the tangle or to heal my mother and you know, it’s like, yeah, that could happen. That might not happen. Who knows? But I think there’s something about my work right now is just kind of a radical embodiment of now.

Spring@springwasham.com (26:21)

right? Everything is alive right now. I don’t have to wait until some other place. And that feels like I’ve come full circle on something with my Buddhist path. Like I’ve gone all around and now I’m back again, but yet I’m back again in a different place.

Sam Believ (26:41)

Yeah, I guess this is where your Buddhist training comes really handy. So you kind of like let go of the ego and don’t expect this one very specific level where everything is, you you get your crown or whatever and no more trauma exists. think definitely with Ayahuasca, it’s with healing journey in general, but with plant medicine specifically, it’s journey of endless contractions and expansions. And it’s a two steps forward, one step back.

Sam Believ (27:11)

And you definitely are growing, but it’s really hard to like see it immediately because sometimes it feels like hundred steps forward and 99 steps back, but still there’s this one, there’s one step. ⁓ Let’s, you mentioned that we’re living in apocalyptic times. ⁓ Why do you believe that? ⁓ how can, why do you say that psychedelics is our last hope?

Spring@springwasham.com (27:40)

Yeah, I mean.

Spring@springwasham.com (27:45)

I mean, I just think that it’s about consciousness, right? And energy and on the planet right now, it’s just so many people lost in their minds, right? And the mind is so negative, the ego is such a grasp. No one’s present, right? And the ego, you know, ultimately it’s a sociopath, right? Everyone’s always, I notice everyone now is obsessed, I don’t know if I even hear the word narcissist and everyone’s

Spring@springwasham.com (28:15)

using everyone else as being a narcissist, like you’re a narcissist, don’t date a narcissist. And I’m like, we’re all narcissists. I mean, we’re obsessed on ourselves. We have very strong attachment to our thoughts and our mind and our stories. And this is what is killing us. It’s so disconnected from who we really are. So.

Spring@springwasham.com (28:39)

I think one of the beautiful things about psychedelics is that it can bring us back into our true nature. We’re not our thoughts, we’re not our mind, we’re not our trauma. There’s something so deeply radiant and beautiful, we’d call it true nature or pure consciousness, or there’s so many words for this state.

Spring@springwasham.com (29:02)

But I think what it’s trying to move into that and the apocalypse is, that, you know, so many of these systems are built on this egoic, you know, rather you look at healthcare systems or military system, everything is built on this very strong egoic system. And, you know, as people start to awaken, you know, it’s like, there is something shifting and moving faster and faster. And it’s happening at the same time.

Spring@springwasham.com (29:30)

Right? So there is this, it feels like a collision course, but like, you know, an earthquake that plates, they come together and then at one point they shift, right? Because the pressure builds and then there’s this earthquake, right? It’s like, wow, the pressure creates the quake. And I feel like there is a pressure on us right now. says both systems are collapsing and patriarchy and white supremacy and colonization. You see everything that was built on greed,

Spring@springwasham.com (30:00)

and delusion, can’t last. That’s deeply Buddhist wisdom. Nothing built on greed or hate or delusion will ever stand the test of time. It can’t. It’s universal principles.

Spring@springwasham.com (30:15)

So only things both on love and compassion and interconnectedness can last. And I think that we’re trying to make this quantum shift into that. And so these old systems are just, they’re going out, but that doesn’t mean there’s not a big fight for them. For people deeply invested their identity in these systems. They’re going to fight and they’ll even die for it.

Spring@springwasham.com (30:42)

Right? They’ll fight, they’ll die, they’ll hurt other people and in their confusion. But there is something I feel deeply inspired about this time, too. Just what you were just saying, Sam, you were like, wow, we live in all this. There’s a darkness, but then there’s all these tools that we’ve never had before. You know, it’s like all the plant medicines and MDMA and mushrooms and you know, it’s like this flourishing and everything is coming out. It’s what happens when

Spring@springwasham.com (31:12)

about to be that quake, right? Those who can get in your lifeboat now and start practicing, right? So that you can make this shift. And it’s exciting. And also, you know, when I’m not mindful, I get scared.

Spring@springwasham.com (31:30)

you know, but when I am aware, I’m trusting and the universe is unfolding and even if we all, you know, pass away, that’s the nature of this reality too. We all will pass away. Nothing here is permanent. there’s a lot for people.

Sam Believ (31:46)

Thank you. ⁓

Sam Believ (31:50)

On a similar topic, ⁓ you say that ayahuasca can help heal racism. Can you talk a little bit about that? ⁓ what do we do and how do we do

Spring@springwasham.com (32:04)

Well, I’ve kind of seen how these medicines, and I’ve been talking to other people here involved in psychedelic research, and I was recently at a conference where I heard about how MDMA was healing Nazis, people with a lot of Nazi fixation, you know, and how opening their heart and doing MDMA with therapy, here’s the thing, not just out in a party, but with the therapist, again, integration. Well, because I

Spring@springwasham.com (32:34)

what all of these medicines do is they help us get into what’s in the subconscious mind, right? They get onto the level of our programs, you know, and, you know, racism is just like…

Spring@springwasham.com (32:50)

It’s just, it’s like a parasite, right? It’s like we’re all human beings and then we adopt this part that’s like, it’s a cancer, right? It’s like hating ourselves, you know, but we just project it out. So it’s, like, we have to heal that energy in order to make this shift, you know, to some degree, not everybody, but a large group of people have to understand the truth, which is that we are all interconnected. You know, this is very foundational and Buddhism 101, but it’s

Spring@springwasham.com (33:20)

to understand that on the deepest level of your being. I feel like psychedelics and these medicines help us on the deepest layer of our being feel that interconnected. I ⁓ know you have so many experiences being in the jungle and people report, I mean, when we were in Peru on the river.

Spring@springwasham.com (33:38)

It’s like people, am the river, I am the cockroaches, I am the birds, I am the trees, I am the wind. And they feel fundamentally shifted, right, losing their identity as an isolated individual cut off, you know? I ⁓ have, I don’t know of another way that can move as fast as these medicines can move us. We have to shift a little bit faster and they give us, doesn’t mean easy, everybody.

Spring@springwasham.com (34:09)

fast and easy. No, ayahuasca is hard work, you know.

Sam Believ (34:16)

Yeah, I’ve definitely seen this and I’ve also experienced it myself where you go through this ego dissolution where all of a sudden you realize we’re all connected and then it also means that if you hurt others, you’re also hurting yourself, ⁓ including hurting nature because we were just this one organism, this very skinny slime on the top of this rock flying through the space. So ⁓ it really puts things in the perspective.

Sam Believ (34:45)

⁓ Let’s go back to a ⁓ little bit about mindfulness and in your past as somebody training ⁓ Buddhism, I believe in one of the interviews you said that when you first started drinking Ayahuasca you kind of had to almost hide it because it was not really that common. ⁓ What do Buddhist people think about ⁓

Spring@springwasham.com (35:11)

Well, like the world is an evolution. You know, it’s an evolving process. Yes, I used to get in a lot of trouble early days when I would come back to my community. I did, I hit it for years because, I would say I’m going on retreat and then I would go down to the, the Keto and I would be, you know, in the jungle. I think everybody at this, you know, there’s a 911.

Spring@springwasham.com (35:38)

signal going off here. So I think the openness to think about mental health is expanded the conversation into less judgment, right? That these things can be really helpful for people and how I always framed it with my with other colleagues of mine that were like, this isn’t Buddhism, what you’re doing down there is Buddhism, right? And I would say, but it is it’s like an accelerated I’m teaching people how to be present in this deep

Spring@springwasham.com (36:08)

that can be overwhelming, you know, or…

Spring@springwasham.com (36:12)

or terrifying or you know, and then I’m giving them tools. People are going to do psychedelics no matter what. I might as well be out there teaching people how to be mindful and giving a path that for a lot of people could be really helpful. And I’m not just trying to indoctrinate people into Buddhism. I’m giving them path of awareness, sharing with them the path of awareness, sharing them how to open their heart, doing compassion practices, focusing on love, understanding

Spring@springwasham.com (36:42)

right? Disidentifying so heavily with the ego and form and you know trying to get people to see their more than that. So I see myself as somebody out there that you know all these people have all these power tools and they could blow themselves up and and I’m trying to be like well hey everybody why don’t we integrate this way. So I think there’s more openness now to the whole thing but everybody’s finding that the world is getting more open you know.

Spring@springwasham.com (37:11)

is just like where we are. Eventually all of this will be legal. 100%.

Sam Believ (37:18)

Yeah, meanwhile for some people it’s hard to come out of the psychedelic closet as we call it. We have people that tell their parents, I’m at the yoga retreat or something like

Spring@springwasham.com (37:29)

yeah, for me too. And I’ve had people that wouldn’t take pictures and hid it from there. Even though

Spring@springwasham.com (37:37)

I had one guy who wouldn’t, his wife was so terrified, but he kept coming to our retreats and then finally he told her, honey, look, you love me so much more now. I’m so much better, but this is what I’ve been doing. And, you know, I just think there’s just fear. Fear keeps people, you know, stuck. love, we’re loyal to our pain. And sometimes these, these ideas feel terrifying, but as research comes

Spring@springwasham.com (38:07)

in around the world about the benefits of all of the psychedelic movement and therapies. I think we’re going to have a very fast course correction here and things are going to be moving to legalization and faster and decriminalization is happening all over in the US and different cities, counties by counties, know, it’s happening. Shift in consciousness is underway.

Sam Believ (38:34)

⁓ Spring, an interesting question. If you have ever observed any similarities between ⁓ Eastern spiritual tradition and the Amazonian spiritual tradition in your ⁓

Spring@springwasham.com (38:49)

my God, there’s so many, you know, I think about the practices of like even the Icaros, you know, the rhythm of the Icaros, the healing songs that we sing and get channeled maestros and maestros sing them. They sound just like Tibetans chanting, you know, in Nepal outside of shrines. And as we go on pilgrimage, I’ll never forget one time I was on, I think I was in Bodh Gaya and I was in India, the place where the Buddha became enlightenment and there was a man

Spring@springwasham.com (39:19)

and it sounded just like an Icaro and he looked, know, was some similarity. And I think that this is like, there’s, we’re all connecting to the same channels here. It’s not like you have it and I don’t, you know, it’s like, it’s this cosmic library of information. It’s called consciousness, right? And we’re all pulling books out of it. And, you know, and I think that there are so many similarities just on the, on the

Spring@springwasham.com (39:49)

the nature, the focus, you I think this big part of what’s so interesting about our time too is the impact of the earth, the presence of the earth. The earth is like, I’m being affected and you’re all gonna feel this effect, right? And so it’s a powerful…

Spring@springwasham.com (40:10)

It’s a powerful time. So for me, these practices, they go hand in hand. They’re not separated, everybody. You can work with these together, and then you really have the best of both worlds. You got the power tools to build your house, really, with a solid foundation.

Sam Believ (40:31)

Yeah, they’re all everything comes from the earth and the end of the day and we have ⁓ the same bodies with same energy systems and eventually people find different plant medicines in different regions to get the same messages and it’s very obvious. I remember when I was working with a shaman who never had any exposure to Eastern spirituality but when he would do the cleanses, he would, you know,

Sam Believ (41:01)

paint process on the chakras, literally like, I mean, the ones of them he could ⁓ physically appropriately access. it was like, I’m sure he’d never heard about it, but still ⁓ intuitively he knows and they know where, how it goes and where it goes. ⁓ it’s really, I guess, a ⁓ nice knowing because it kind of helps you ⁓

Sam Believ (41:29)

reinforce the belief and trust in the spiritual side of things. ⁓ Spring was a really fun conversation. think ⁓ our listeners will enjoy it a lot. Is there anything else ⁓ we forgot to cover ⁓ on the general topics that we’re talking

Spring@springwasham.com (41:52)

No, I think this is really good and I’m always happy to have these conversations about the medicine

Spring@springwasham.com (41:59)

I really like what you’re doing down there in Columbia. I just, yeah, just it’s amazing that we have access to this medicine and just deep gratitude for all of us who are holding this work with ethics and care and compassion. And yeah, we’re in a good place with it. And we’re doing what we’re called to do to be of service. And I just feel grateful for all of it.

Sam Believ (42:26)

Where can people find more about you, any of your books that you would like to recommend them for your events? ⁓ One last question I haven’t asked about ⁓ the church that you’re building. Let’s just answer that one real quick. ⁓ Why did you go from doing the retreat to now wanting to build a church? And ⁓ what are the struggles of ⁓ building an ayahuasca church?

Spring@springwasham.com (42:41)

Yes, well that’s a whole thing.

Spring@springwasham.com (42:53)

Well, you know, I

Spring@springwasham.com (42:56)

really, really wanting to focus on the US and all of the communities here. And so I moved to the southern part, which is historically very conservative. And it’s like a desert of medicines and information. still felt like some parts are still in the dark age or something. It was interesting. But there are so many people I felt called. So I wanted to start working with communities here because laws are changing, perceptions changing.

Spring@springwasham.com (43:26)

belief systems about plant medicine are shifting and a lot of decriminalization. So I wanted to start a church that I could take all the money structure out, you know, and base it very similarly on Santo Daime, which is the Christian church that’s legal in the US and around the world.

Spring@springwasham.com (43:45)

and have it be really based on community, know, community and love and practice. And it just felt like a church, though it’s like, you know, it’s a vehicle in which we can be protected with our religious freedoms. So that felt important, you know, we have it’s a Buddhist.

Spring@springwasham.com (44:06)

Christian mystic ancestor indigenous church full of world practices and Sufis and and great Zen masters every everything is like a stream right and everyone’s gonna get in the stream wherever they feel good about being in that stream, know what resonates for them and So yeah, we’re just in that process and we’re gonna build a retreat center and I wanted it all to be nonprofit I don’t want money to be an obstacle because

Spring@springwasham.com (44:36)

many people over the years have written to me and been in situations where they weren’t able to fly across the world. And they’re like, I’m right here. Can you come here? Can you come here? I mean, I can’t tell you how many times I get a request. Can you come to my neighborhood? Can you come to our part of the world? So this just feels like me listening very deeply to my intuition.

Spring@springwasham.com (44:58)

and to support the movement here. I feel like the US is kind of the epicenter of the sickness a little bit. And I’m just like gonna go right into the heart of that and then see what we can do so plow it.

Sam Believ (45:14)

⁓ Well, best of luck on this. I know it’s not going to be easy. ⁓ Now we can go to the previous

Spring@springwasham.com (45:22)

What was the previous question? Anything else I want to say? yeah, where can people find? Yes, you could.

Sam Believ (45:24)

⁓ Where can people find more about you? Any of your books you’d like to recommend?

Spring@springwasham.com (45:29)

Yeah, yeah, you can find me on my website, springwasham .com. And I’m pausing for a period on my international retreats, but I’m going to have meditation retreats coming up. And yeah, springwasham .com. I have books on Amazon. People can find me there. yeah, I’m on I’m online sharing more and more. And yeah, so I’ll be doing lots of retreats coming up in 2025. A lot of just pure meditation, light

Spring@springwasham.com (45:59)

energy, yoga, all of that. And then also through my church, working with communities in that way too. So I’m doing it all right in 2025. I’m building it all, rebuilt.

Sam Believ (46:15)

Okay, well, best of luck on all those projects ⁓ and thank you so much for coming on and sharing your unique perspective. It was a pleasure having

Spring@springwasham.com (46:25)

Thank you.

Sam Believ (46:27)

Guys, thank you for listening to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always with you, host, Sambiliyev, and I will see you in the next episode.

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ has a conversation with Dr. Lauren Leiva, founder of The ExerScience Center and a multidimensional Doctor of Physical Therapy. Lauren shares how her early spiritual practices helped her survive a life-threatening event and discusses the mind-body connection, biohacking, and healing.

We touch upon topics of:
– Spiritual practices and survival (00:30:00)
– Mind-body connection (00:10:00)
– Intuition and healing (00:18:00)
– Ayahuasca and biohacking (00:30:00)
– Running a clinic with a holistic approach (00:42:00)

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats, go to http://www.lawayra.com.

Find more about Dr. Lauren Leiva at theexersciencecenter.com.

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:05)

Hi guys, welcome to ayahuascapodcast .com. As always with you, the host, Sambiliyev. Today I am interviewing Dr. Laura Leyva. Laura is ⁓ a ⁓ survivor. She’s also known as Queen of Biohacking. She’s an owner and the founder of Excer Science Biohacking Center. She’s a mother of two and she ⁓ is on a mission.

Sam Believ (00:33)

of finding a holistic healing path. ⁓ Lauren, welcome to the ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (00:36)

⁓ Thanks for having me. Thank you for having me. I’m excited to be

Sam Believ (00:40)

⁓ Alright.

Sam Believ (00:46)

⁓ So, Lauren, before we start talking about ⁓ psychedelics and ⁓ biohacking, ⁓ tell us a little bit about your journey. I know you ⁓ had a pretty ⁓ difficult life and ⁓ so what brought you to ⁓ getting better yourself and then starting to help others?

Queen of Biohacking (01:10)

So, I mean, I think after ayahuasca journeys, we all know it starts within the womb and before, but what got me on my journey to healing and creating my center really was ⁓ just going through a lifetime of trauma that we all go through, but improper healing methods. ⁓ And I know that we had a brief conversation, for example, before about marijuana.

Queen of Biohacking (01:39)

But when I was 13, I started smoking marijuana because of a lot of depression and different things that happened. ⁓ And giving the long story short of it, because we can also link YouTube videos and everything, ⁓ but my parents got divorced before I was born. They were very different. My mom was this hippie, nudist, ⁓ spiritual, just beautiful person. And my father’s a beautiful person too, but he was more like,

Queen of Biohacking (02:08)

military mindset, very strict. ⁓ So having two different homes was very different and it actually created a lot of bias because my mom was into plant medicine, was into dance, into movement. And when I would go to my father’s house, it was like, that’s wrong. ⁓ is, know, movement is sexual. So there was a huge disconnect within the way I grew up from one household to another. So. ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (02:37)

Going through that, when I was 13, I experienced a very traumatic event that ayahuasca later showed me resulted in Crohn’s disease. ⁓ I started going to the bathroom about 100 times a day. I would throw up water sometimes because my body was just shut down. I had blood transfusions to elevate my iron levels. I would have, again, IVs for hydration. My body wouldn’t take in anything. ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (03:07)

Just going through mainstream medical system, my mother was older, she worked a lot, we didn’t have the best insurance, so I was being prescribed prednisone, azogal, flagell, all of these medicines, anti -depressants, Adderall, oxycodone, and it was just like they were throwing anything at me to make the symptoms go away, but they would result in other things like osteoporosis, I got arrhythmia nososum, which is like nodules in your ⁓ bloodstream.

Queen of Biohacking (03:37)

One thing caused another thing caused another thing. And if anybody has been to my talks, I’ve been going around the world to share the mind over matter because from 13 years old and so on, I kind of pushed everything under the rug. I was a straight A student, a scholar, you know, ⁓ I appeared, I’m looking at my thing, I appeared, you know, normal on the outside, but the inside was just getting sicker and sicker and sicker, more diseased, which happens to a lot of people.

Queen of Biohacking (04:06)

I work with veterans who’ve had terrible injuries that you can see on the outside. But a lot of us walk around with injuries on the inside and nobody gives you the time and space to heal the support that you need if they can’t see the pain you’re going through. So that’s something that’s a little bit off in society. So just going through college and I started off, I went through my early years. I was going to go to USF Medical School. took my

Queen of Biohacking (04:36)

⁓ and then ⁓ after graduating USF, honors, I got a bachelor in biomedical science, biomedical physics. I just loved science. Later, one of my mentors told me, you can’t cry while you’re doing math. So I think I also threw myself into school a lot because I was escaping other things that were going on in my life. ⁓ In my life, there was different things ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (05:02)

Ayahuasca helps me talk about because ⁓ it was very hard to talk about abuse or neglect or sexual trauma. ⁓ For some time I ⁓ had a restraining order on my own brother and it was really hard to talk about and nobody really knew how I grew up. I was just, as I got older and wiser, I was almost mind blown that nobody really went into ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (05:28)

my living situation, my spiritual ⁓ health, you know, every time since I was little, they would scan my body, take my heart rate, my blood pressure, prescribe something. Nobody asked, was I being abused? Was I being hurt? Was I happy? And now there is some, you know, scanning they do when you go to the doctor. ⁓ you know, do you have motivation for life? Are you happy? Are you hurt? So it’s good that they’re bringing that into mainstream healthcare.

Queen of Biohacking (05:58)

but it goes deeper because usually we’re around our loved ones when we’re being asked this. We’re not in a space, a sacred space to share. So often we don’t even know what’s going on. After ⁓ college, I had my first son. He was born two months early. And that was really the seed that apparently came out of me. And I’m like, he’s not gonna go through the same thing I went through. ⁓ And I wanted to, I got off all my medicines.

Queen of Biohacking (06:27)

all natural within one day. So talking about addiction and everything, I thought I needed everything. And especially when you have a whole medical system or doctors, especially if you’re uneducated and someone says you need this or you’ll die, or ⁓ you’re gonna be on this medicine the rest of your life, your cellular structure is listening. And if you believe it, it actually could become true within the body. So it took an unlearning for me over time after I had my son.

Queen of Biohacking (06:57)

to know better, to do better, and that I don’t want him to even have this in his system through me. I wanted to breastfeed, I wanted to do things. So that’s when I realized I can. And it’s on the back of my business card and it’s one of my mottos, I have, can’t, and we ripped a tee off. Because I rarely will tell anybody they can’t do something because for me, that’s almost a challenge, well, can I? And it’s not reverse psychology,

Queen of Biohacking (07:26)

We are such amazing spirits in this body. We always think, we’re gonna go to ayahuasca and have a spiritual experience. No, our spirit is here the whole time waiting to come out. So when we go to these things and we respect the spirit, our body becomes the temple that we subconsciously always know about. We have to respect our temple. We have to feed our temple good things from the food we eat, ⁓ the amount of water we drink.

Queen of Biohacking (07:55)

If we’re doing drugs, we’re hurting our temple. It hurts our mind. Then our spirit might not be in this body for a long time. So this is really what brought me to the plant medicines because after having my son and realizing just all the things that were wrong with how I was raised, how the medical system treated me, I really put a lot of my efforts to explore further.

Queen of Biohacking (08:22)

My mother, she was killed by the hospital in 2019, overdosed on blood thinner. So again, mainstream medical care, was really like repulsed by. ⁓ I had so many surgeries as a child. So I wanted a better solution. And after my mom passed away, I opened my clinic. And opening my clinic, I was able to apply and spend as much time with each patient.

Queen of Biohacking (08:51)

because that’s something that was, again, I found that was off when I was little. They would do the questionnaires, they would see what’s wrong, but they really didn’t spend that sacred time with you, because maybe something’s under the rug that’s gonna come out. Often people that are going through trauma don’t even know why they’re in pain. They might see something, but it could be something totally different. And that’s kind of what was going on with me from 13, so.

Queen of Biohacking (09:16)

I was in my ⁓ 30s and it resulted in ulcers and inflammation and depression and ⁓ even had suicidal thoughts. So, ⁓ again, my life of pain ⁓ brought me to the purpose and then through my own practices, I realized just love and having that frequency of love and connection with people really allow healing. ⁓ And plant medicine,

Queen of Biohacking (09:45)

When you add it in with love and connection, which is why I love ayahuasca retreats, because we’re in a circle, a community, and some people don’t have a true community. Someone that you hardly know could feel like your family, and when you come home, you could feel alone. And that’s what’s really beautiful there. So having the love and everybody being open for healing is one thing. But the plant medicines, for example, I ⁓ could go through rapa, ⁓ sananga, and ayahuasca, which is what

Queen of Biohacking (10:14)

what I experienced at my first ayahuasca retreat. ⁓ And the rapé was very powerful. ⁓ And even at first I asked the shaman, can I just snort a line? ⁓ You know, it looks kind of scary over there because the shaman will blow rapé up your nose. And then I actually have my own practice now. There’s the curie pipe, the teppi pipe, and it’s really beautiful to bring it ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (10:41)

to your own practice eventually when you can learn more about it. But ⁓ I learned about the feminine, the masculine. It’s so much more than just the plant medicine. Every person’s hands that touch this plant to make this shamanic snuff to decalcify my pineal gland, every part of it matters. It’s just like if people are meat eaters. I don’t wanna go there, but if you’re not respecting the animal and they were tortured, I mean, you’re eating a ball of pain.

Queen of Biohacking (11:11)

You’re putting the pain in your body, torture in your body. So the same thing as with the plant medicine. That’s why it’s important to go to a reliable community because ayahuasca is getting very popular and I also feel like commercialized. So you can go places. I’ve been at clubs and they sell rapé and sananga at tables outside, you know, of these clubs. ⁓ which again, I don’t want to create too much judgment, but ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (11:40)

When I took courses to learn about rapé and even understand when you’re blowing it into someone, just channeling certain spirit animals or certain thoughts or connecting with an intention to release, allowing the medicine to be done, there’s so much deeper ways to connect with the medicine ⁓ or else anything can become an addiction or just a practice to escape. For example, I talk about my marijuana use. I go outside all the time and I smoke a

Queen of Biohacking (12:10)

a blunt, know, like Snoop Dogg or Tupac. I like to roll it in a tobacco leaf and I like to smoke and it’s very good for digestion, for sleeping. ⁓ But I realized really not until after the ayahuasca, it was also an escape. I just wanted to get away and I think when you have children, when you’re a mother, when you’re a business owner, it’s hard to tell people. I just need to step away for a moment and breathe. But if you roll a joint and you step outside,

Queen of Biohacking (12:39)

Most people don’t want to stand right next to you. So I realized that it was a way for me to step away, a way for me to have my alone space, a way for me to take a deep breath. And then Mama Aya told me, well, you could do that anyways. ⁓ You don’t need to add in this fire that you’re inhaling. And again, the things we resist persist. So I love all parts of myself and I still love my connection with marijuana, but having a real connection

Queen of Biohacking (13:08)

plant medicine in general has allowed me to see those subconscious, the things that we always hide. Cause everybody has the yin and the yang. And I can talk all day and travel the world and probably monetize the fact that I was the first person in Florida, almost with my marijuana card. And I love plant medicine, but you know, it’s my duty as a mother of two kids to say it’s really not the healthiest thing to light a tobacco leaf on fire and inhale

Queen of Biohacking (13:37)

three to 10 times a day, you know, so just because I do, I want to do better. ⁓ And Ayahuasca just showed me all the projections that I had, even with my husband. So even with my mother’s death, it allowed me to stop arguing with what is and see the beauty in it. There’s so many people that say I’m not a people person or, you know, politics and everything that’s going on in the world. It’s like we can’t handle the conversation.

Queen of Biohacking (14:07)

The plant medicine allows us to handle everything. It might not be what is serving us. It might not be joyous. It might not be happy, but it gives us the tool to remain calm and see things in an objective way ⁓ and to be able to create love around that situation. And for me, that’s the best way to explain it. I don’t know if I’m doing a good job or going down too many rabbit holes, but trauma brought me to where I am now.

Queen of Biohacking (14:32)

to heal people in a way where it’s not just so medicated and surgical, where it’s not within a five, 10 minute medical appointment. You talk to a doctor and then you go home and you have to follow a plan, because nobody follows the plan. People say, need you to wake me up, shock me, get me up, you know, and I think ayahuasca really allows us to do that to ourself every day. We realize it’s not outside of us, it’s within, so.

Queen of Biohacking (15:00)

I’m just grateful to be here with you and even to be recommended to talk to you because studying plant medicine, ayahuasca, even sanonga. ⁓ Sanonga, I have a great story with that. When they did the sanonga in my eyes, of course, it was like one of the strongest ones. ⁓ I felt like I was blind for 15 minutes, but it was probably five minutes. They said it wouldn’t last too long. It’s eye drops.

Queen of Biohacking (15:28)

that I’m sure you know, but just for people listening, they put it in your eye and it is expressed from this ⁓ tree that is collecting water, right? The salt water in the ocean. Is it in Peru or is it everywhere else?

Sam Believ (15:42)

Honestly, we don’t work much with Sananga. I’ve seen people doing it. I’ve never wanted to try it, but I think it’s from Amazon. don’t know if it’s Does it grow on the coast? But yeah, no idea there. Just tell the story.

Queen of Biohacking (15:56)

Right? So again, this is why you got to be careful where you go because I’m not going to deliver you Sunanga because I don’t know, you know, all about it, but I definitely take it. ⁓ And it’s basically an eye drop where it feels like, know, you’re crazy. You’re just going to, you lose your vision for a little bit. And when I say you lose your vision completely black, it’s not spots. It’s not anything. It’s literally like you have no eyeballs. And ⁓ when that happened, I could

Queen of Biohacking (16:26)

First, the shaman said to me, breathe into it and don’t curse. And I think she knew what was about to come out of me, because I was like, fuck! I just started screaming curse words and I started slapping the ground. And then I started tapping myself like really hard. I mean, I’m being, I mean, I was like really slapping myself. I even did, if anybody knows yoga, like a shoulder stand and a snow plow. Like I flipped backwards over because I couldn’t handle it.

Queen of Biohacking (16:55)

or I thought I couldn’t handle it. ⁓ And then I heard my husband’s voice. And before I tell everybody this, I want them to know I’ve been married 17 years. My husband’s never cursed me out once. He’s amazing and he’s beautiful. We’re very different. He’s from New York, he’s a jeweler. He doesn’t want to be naked or go outside barefoot. He doesn’t want to just play in the dirt like me. So we don’t realize even what we put on our spouses, our family, our kids.

Queen of Biohacking (17:23)

So when I’m here, I heard his voice cursing me out. And what was weird to me is that he would never do that. So what I heard was what I thought he was thinking of me all the time. And this moment really helped my relationship with my husband because ⁓ if I can say without any, know, because it’s pretty bad, but it was like, what the fuck are you doing? You know, out in the woods with these hippies and now you’re blind.

Queen of Biohacking (17:52)

⁓ How do you feel about yourself now? Like, was this a good decision? So, but that was my subconscious thoughts. What am I doing out here in the woods with these people and am I blind, you know? But for some reason I’m always thinking he’s thinking that of me. And then I might come home and be like, eh. But no, when I left, it’s almost like Edward Scissorhand came and he cut everything into a heart. The trees, the clouds. When I came home, I saw my husband as a ball of ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (18:21)

Because one, he would never say those things to me. He supports my journey and I realized this is within me. And I know that sounds crazy, but just the projections that we create onto other people were all coming out. Cause I could hear the voices. Those two medicines were very intense and I think it helped me release the anxiety towards drinking ayahuasca. So it was a great way that we had this process and ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (18:52)

When I drank the ayahuasca, there’s the ceremony and they have, and again, every place is different, so I can’t wait to come to yours. I was in a plant medicine church in the United States in Tampa, Florida, and they give a little red cup. So it’s your first cup. Then you can offer a second cup and then possibly a third cup, because they want people to get as much as they need. I’ve heard different stories at different places, so this is my story.

Queen of Biohacking (19:22)

The first time I believe I did two cups ⁓ and ⁓ the shaman looks at you before they pour the cup, you know, to kind of look in your eyes and see how much you need. When I was on my first time, I ⁓ felt I didn’t get as much as everybody else, you know, and I was thinking maybe it’s because of the surgery I’ve had, the colostomy bag, because they kind of do a scanning of your medical situation to keep you safe.

Queen of Biohacking (19:52)

which is good, you know, ⁓ but I feel that I did not have the psychedelic experience, that expectation that maybe people read, what is ayahuasca? What am I gonna experience? ⁓ Of course I didn’t experience any of that. And that’s life because I think the more we create the expectations and we look at someone else’s journey, we set up expectations, none of it’s there. And going into brain waves and studying

Queen of Biohacking (20:21)

brain waves of monks and really enlightened individuals, it’s when you are almost nowhere or anywhere, anything can happen, right? So that’s why it’s good not to look up other people’s journeys before your journey because you just wanna be there and allow anything to happen, limitless opportunities. When you define everything off of what you read or your past, that’s what’s going to shift everything from that moment. So I learned the first time

Queen of Biohacking (20:50)

I was comparing myself to everybody else. And I think I was like even a little upset like, well, I can walk fine. I didn’t even feel wobbly or, you know, like maybe it didn’t work. So I don’t know, ⁓ again, other places, but I’ve heard other people say they’ve been to ceremonies. Everybody’s going through integration. Some people saw a snake go up a tree. Some people saw pyramids. And then there’s a few people that didn’t see anything.

Queen of Biohacking (21:19)

Maybe they didn’t feel they experienced anything. And I was one of those in the beginning. So I thought, wow, nothing works on me. ⁓ And someone who could be depressed could get even more depressed. Like I’m trying everything, this doesn’t work. ⁓ But I realized that it created the relationship, because I had the calling for Aya. And some people don’t know what that means. But if you know, know. Because it’s like you don’t even know what this plan is, but you’re called to find an Ayahuasca church or a ceremony.

Queen of Biohacking (21:48)

And that happened to me. And then after I drank a little bit of it, even though I thought I didn’t have any type of psychedelic experience or huge transformation, it’s like it was working its way through me until the next ceremony. And I had no idea. And again, because we don’t know, we don’t know everything. The more you know, the more you realize you don’t know. So the second time I went was amazing. It was so transformational. ⁓ I wanted to

Queen of Biohacking (22:18)

⁓ and heal what happened with my mother because she was killed by the hospital in 2019. I wanted to let it go. I wanted to let it go. Apparently I drank enough ayahuasca to start talking to trees this time. And there was one big tree in the big tree. I was like, mom. And the tree was like, no, I’m you. And it like pointed to a little weed. Like that’s your tree. That’s your mom. Basically ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (22:46)

I am Mother Earth and everything’s within me and my mother’s already going back into the, you know, space and we all have different beliefs of heaven after life. So I’m not going to go down that too much, but for me, I feel like we’re all a spirit ⁓ and ⁓ I could feel my ⁓ ancestors within me. I always feel alone because a lot of people in my family have passed away. So during the times on my second journey,

Queen of Biohacking (23:14)

It’s almost like anything I was thinking, the answer was right there. I’m like, I feel alone. And the women that were singing in Spanish, there was a song. ⁓ And even though I don’t speak it fluently, oddly I knew every word of it. And it was saying like, you are your brother, you are your sister, you are your mother, you are your father. ⁓ And in those moments, I really accepted the world as my tribe, you know, and that everybody’s my family and that I’m not

Queen of Biohacking (23:43)

And that has stayed with me ever since because I ⁓ think a lot of us feel alone ⁓ and we aren’t. And I felt a connection within every single living thing. And that’s what’s beautiful about plant medicine because we’re all a frequency and the more we can connect, are ⁓ stronger. We amplify ⁓ that good vibration. So, I ⁓ could go on forever. So I wanna give you some tips.

Sam Believ (24:06)

Okay. ⁓

Sam Believ (24:09)

I was wondering if you’re ever gonna stop on your own. just, so. ⁓ You’re asking me things, so I think that’s a record on the podcast. You spoke for 24 minutes. ⁓ But now mute your microphone. I’m gonna be speaking now. ⁓ So first of all, what you’re talking about this not connecting.

Queen of Biohacking (24:15)

Yeah, I was starting to like when he stopped.

Queen of Biohacking (24:22)

Wow.

Queen of Biohacking (24:27)

Perfect.

Sam Believ (24:36)

thing this is why we we do retreats right not like a one one one night thing but minimum was like two ceremonies but what i recommend for the first timers especially is ⁓ four ceremonies in one week because ayahuasca is like this for most people it takes a while to sort of start connecting going there but i think in your case and we talked a little bit about that ⁓ the the marihuana kind of what it does to you it makes it harder for you to connect ⁓

Sam Believ (25:02)

This not connecting thing kind of brings me to the next stop, which is you said you like the challenge. So my challenge to you would be ⁓ whenever you plan to come here, hopefully soon, ⁓ to quit ⁓ marijuana and actually ⁓ not use it for at least a week. And you can do it, I’m sure you can. ⁓ And ⁓ yeah, because there is a bit of escapism that we all do. I must say, ⁓ my vice tends to be ⁓

Sam Believ (25:31)

smoking cigars because I just know, you know, it automatically make me feel better. ⁓ But it’s, it’s harder to just actually ⁓ sometimes just sit, sit, sit with the pain and I kind of allow this. It’s, it’s, it’s easy for us. We’re all kind of conditioned by our society to have the instant gratification and just kind of running away from the pain. And another thing you said that I wanted to comment on is, ⁓ you know, ⁓

Sam Believ (26:01)

We’re all wounded healers. think you greatly kind of like overlooked how difficult your condition was because I saw the speech you did at the conference and then there was ⁓ your story and all the surgeries and it ⁓ you looked really in a bad shape. So to have overcome this and then to ⁓ become somebody who helps people as well, like ⁓ you do it through a biohacking modality and you help people, you ⁓

Sam Believ (26:29)

through physiotherapy. think ⁓ it’s a very noble thing to do and I guess there’s a lot of us now which is the wounded healer paradigm. There’s so many people that heal themselves and then they step up and they want to heal others. My story with ayahuasca is somewhat similar because I was kind of depressed. I didn’t know what to do and then I drank ayahuasca and I…

Sam Believ (26:54)

It helped me and then I kept working with it till eventually it showed me like, you know, you should start working with Alaska. So I ended up with an Alaska retreat now. But I think it’s it’s this calling that kind of like there’s universe created this broadcast and it’s like become a healer. And it’s like many people are stepping up now and hopefully it will change us as a society. Another thing ⁓ you mentioned is how lonely we feel and how

Sam Believ (27:22)

you know, you would have to hide your problems inside and you just have to perform good and externally be okay. ⁓ And that’s what we notice a lot here at the retreat as well. ⁓ you know, we live in that, I mean, it was bad 10 years ago and 20 years ago, it was always bad in our society. But now with like Instagram society where everyone has to be perfect and then everyone thinks like, everyone is perfect. It’s just me.

Sam Believ (27:49)

⁓ and then it makes them feel even worse about it. So what we notice here at the retreat, people come and the first thing they experience is, know, wow, actually everyone is similarly hurt as I am and ⁓ everyone, and then all of a sudden it’s less difficult because we’re all in it together. So that brings me to ⁓ my next question. So you said you’re conducting studies on the effects ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (28:04)

Okay. ⁓

Sam Believ (28:18)

of ayahuasca on people’s brain and it’s hard for you to ⁓ separate between the actual healing that comes from the medicine and healing that comes from the group. ⁓ talk to us a little bit about that and also talk to us how do you measure the effects on the brain.

Queen of Biohacking (28:38)

So there’s a couple ways that you can measure the effects and technology just like our phones is consistently advancing. So what I’m using today I might not be using, you know, at the next retreat of something that comes out that is faster, more available. The device that I’ve been using is called a neural check and I can send you some imaging of this later. Maybe you can post ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (29:02)

It is two clips that go on the wrist and it looks up heart rate variability. After measuring about three to 500 heartbeat, it also creates a connection and relationship between your neuro hormonal system, your psychosomatic, your autonomic nervous system and the balance between it all. It shows different charts and histograms and circadian rhythms of your optimal times throughout your day. It even shows

Queen of Biohacking (29:31)

your energy centers, chakra centers, and then gives it a percentage where how ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (29:40)

open would you say it is. People can translate the data differently because it’s new devices. But what’s interesting how Western and Eastern overlap because it also shows the spinal health. The spinal health almost exactly correlates with the chakras because it’s the energy that’s coming from the spine and all of the levels, which is feeding the organs, feeding the body. So you can go into the health, the meridians and create data

Queen of Biohacking (30:09)

manual therapy, which is why I love to do what I do. And I think it’s great when ayahuasca retreats have offerings like massage therapy, because you can see how the body needs manual touch along with the medicine. we are ⁓ scanning people before and after the retreats. At first, I was trying to do before and after ayahuasca.

Queen of Biohacking (30:31)

Anybody that has gone to ayahuasca retreats know there’s opening circles, closing circles. Again, there could be multiple plant medicines, music, dance, community. A lot of people are detoxing before they come to a retreat. ⁓ So they’re already taking on a lot of good health practices that maybe otherwise they wouldn’t be doing. So I feel that that downplays the effects of ayahuasca just itself because when you ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (30:58)

scanning these people, their lives have already completely changed as they’re getting ready to do an ayahuasca retreat. So I think the studies should go more into how does the ayahuasca retreat really change your life because it’s hard to disconnect the medicine. I was talking about ketamine, for example, when you go to a doctor’s office and they do an IV injection, you can scan before it, you have a monitored situation, you can scan after.

Queen of Biohacking (31:26)

With ayahuasca, it’s important for integration. And like you said, having multiple ayahuasca retreats, I went to a ceremony, I think they had like three night times or a daytime, and that was like super transformational. ⁓ So I think doing a study in the beginning and at the end, because when you’re going each moment throughout the day, again, it can affect maybe the goals of the ayahuasca retreat to begin with, because people don’t want to speak to someone in a white coat with

Queen of Biohacking (31:53)

a clipboard, you know, they have white coat hypertension. ⁓ So there’s been barriers to the studies, but really we’re scanning the brain. ⁓ We’re seeing where the brain waves are when they come in. And a lot of times people are in a scattered brain. They can’t align their thoughts properly. They can’t separate logic and creative thoughts. So if you’ve ever even scanned somebody and even me, you could talk about 20 things in a conversation and not get your thought out. And that shows, ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (32:23)

just a disconnect with the harmony inside of your brain. It’s really healthy to get a thought out and then go to the next thing. When two people are together and they’re like squirrel, squirrel, squirrel. I mean, it could be funny, but really it’s showing that your brain is not on a cohesive brainwave. So two years it took me to meditate and help take away depression, suicide thoughts, ⁓ even, and I hate to go into ⁓ the feelings of hate and anger, but, ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (32:53)

When you’ve been through a lot, you’ve had pain, abuse, rape, whatever, a lot of times you might actually be soothed with the thoughts of anger or pain, or even wanting to hurt ⁓ the person that hurt you. So that’s what’s so beautiful because ayahuasca allowed me to see everybody in a different light. It’s really hard to explain, but just to send love to all.

Queen of Biohacking (33:22)

even to people that I used to, I ⁓ hate to admit it out loud because it’s the human part of me, but I used to want

Queen of Biohacking (33:31)

you know, kill people. Like, and not everybody, I hate to say that out loud, you know, but if someone is sexually abusing someone, it’s like kill that MFer, you know, this or that. But it’s weird because Ayahuasca helped me see so many layers even behind that person of ⁓ maybe what they’re thinking when they do it. And I don’t even want to think that. I don’t want to connect with people that I don’t align with or that I feel are evil or that might be on, you know, this side of the border. Right? ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (34:01)

People have so much division, especially with wars that are going on in the world inside of our homes or with your neighbor. You know, during the pandemic, are you gonna vaccinate? Are you gonna vaccinate? And then people create all this hate. I’m so blessed ⁓ that Ayahuasca allowed me to see where people are thinking. Everybody’s doing their best with the knowledge they have. And really that’s where the Ayahuasca and the studies

Queen of Biohacking (34:30)

You can see people’s thought process. You can see their psycho -emotional state, their inability to handle any type of ⁓ noxious stimuli. So noxious stimuli could be something that is irritating to you. ⁓ That could be someone’s voice, right? How does it apply to your daily life? A noxious stimuli could be pain. Pain is an output. A lot of people are like, my God, I’m in so much fucking pain. But when they heal their mind,

Queen of Biohacking (34:57)

their body’s not in pain anymore, because it was a psychosomatic response. And that’s what’s been beautiful about the studies, to see the mind really get healthy over time. I ⁓ love a device called the brain towel, and it’s something I put on my head. And again, it took me two years to really improve my brain ⁓ after my mom was killed and different things ⁓ to just be where I was. When I did ayahuasca,

Queen of Biohacking (35:26)

and I studied people, it only took them one day, one day to get to where it took me two years ⁓ and a lot of people. And that’s pretty amazing to be able to go through all of the barriers and just be where you need to be. You can have doctors that have a bias, because I speak at different conferences and the more medical it gets and the less cannadelic, psychedelic, holistic.

Queen of Biohacking (35:55)

There’s more of a, are you bringing this information to us? What does it have to do with the medical community? Dr. Leva is a drug addict. Dr. Leva is a hippie. Dr. Leva is a weed smoker. You know, all of the bias that comes in. And ⁓ I was very proud of myself on stage last time. And I said, well, let’s go back and think about how many people I’ve helped, how many veterans, how many people that are going through cancer treatments, how many people who had a colostomy bag like me.

Queen of Biohacking (36:24)

and they couldn’t even go to the bathroom like how we were intended. And after going through this process of plant medicines, they’ve been able to heal and not beyond drugs anymore. So to show and to, and not to say battle, but to stand my ground and say, I’m not doing anything wrong. That’s your bias and what you’ve learned. As long as you can respect everything, I think the more that people like me can get out there.

Queen of Biohacking (36:51)

and show them it’s healing, show the data, the brainwaves are changing. And ⁓ just a quick example, because I could go on forever, but certain people like UFC fighters, veterans, NFL players with concussion injury, ⁓ some people that could have ⁓ angry tendencies, they don’t maybe want to do breath work or yoga or attend to sound healing ⁓ or go to an ayahuasca retreat. There could be all of these things inside of them where they feel like they’re too far gone.

Queen of Biohacking (37:22)

when you, that’s why also having one -on -ones. ⁓ I don’t know if you guys do like private ceremonies or smaller groups, but ⁓ that’s really beautiful because I tell these people that are so far from wanting it. I said, ⁓ when you go through yoga and breath work and stuff, you have to be in a space of receiving. But when you’re so far gone or depressed or angry, sometimes,

Sam Believ (37:30)

Yeah, we do.

Queen of Biohacking (37:51)

having a medicine that opens you up and I say, I don’t wanna say whether you like it or not, but when you’re in a sacred atmosphere and you’re supported and feel safe and you can be guided, it ⁓ almost, and I don’t wanna say cheats your way through, but I tell them, it’s a way to open up and skip over a ⁓ hundred steps because when you go through insurance and to providers, talk therapy, psychologists, ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (38:21)

I’ve been to it all myself and not everybody’s great. And one person can be the cherry on top that makes someone just want to go off the edge. Plant medicine is very objective in the way that it works through the body. You know, you don’t have to talk to ayahuasca and tell it where to go. It knows where to go. ⁓ And it’s just, I think that’s what’s so beautiful about plant

Sam Believ (38:46)

Thank you for sharing this. ⁓ So definitely it’s interesting that you observed that how much of a speed up, how much I was can speed up that process of healing. ⁓ I’ve definitely noticed it myself and on many other people that come here, where they keep saying like, this feels like 10 years of therapy, 20 years of therapy, you name it. I think the biggest I have was like 30. ⁓

Sam Believ (39:16)

⁓ Want to talk about obviously your your main focus is biohacking and It’s interesting to me I’ve been trying to go on some biohacking podcast to talk more about plant medicines because I think to me there is an obvious connection ⁓ But there seems to be some resistance to it ⁓ And for some reason like people when they’re biohacking they they really focus on like this supplement and that thing but there is not really enough talk about mental health as ⁓

Sam Believ (39:44)

⁓ From my understanding you can be completely healthy and you can have like super long telomeres and your cells are amazing and your mitochondria is like wonderful and then you shoot yourself in the head because you’re so depressed or whatever happens to you. It’s like mental health is really the most important thing and I like your attitude to mind over matter. So ⁓ where do you think, where do you stand on that? How can we get ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (40:12)

⁓

Sam Believ (40:12)

more people in biohacking space to talk about plant medicines, mental health in general.

Queen of Biohacking (40:18)

Well, I think ⁓ people like you and me coming together, I have a group that I started on WhatsApp after all of the biohacking conferences. Now that I’m speaking, I’ve added in the speakers. It’s called Bio Royale. So I’d love to connect you in there and get you on the different podcasts. Cause the more that we connect outside of the conferences ⁓ and keep the conversation going, the more that it’s going to create this community. And that is really the reason why I did

Queen of Biohacking (40:46)

If you don’t go to a conference and spend at least $5 ,000 on a VIP ticket, it’s really hard for you to connect with another physician, doctor, scientist. ⁓ And even at the VIP dinners, it’s like an hour on a weekend. So when I go to those VIP dinners and I’m just like, wow, so much can be made, I created that group. And there’s so many podcasts that you should be on and I’m excited for you to be on them and get more information out there. ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (41:16)

I made a joke at the last conference and it’s not funny, but it’s exactly what you were saying, is we can look good, we can feel good, we can have a really strong body. And after my mother was, she was overdosed on blood thinner in 2019, after I was hospitalized nine months, after I was hit by a car and then I was hit by another car afterwards. again, ⁓ mental health is super important. And I kind of

Queen of Biohacking (41:43)

Smiling for everybody else because I’m a yogi I’m a spiritual person and I would smile so other people would be comfortable as I was like literally dying inside and if it wasn’t for my children, I probably would have And I hate to admit it, but I would have let myself go. I ⁓ was only here for other people my physical body that’s how bad it was ⁓ and I would tell people about it and that’s when I realized there is a problem of disconnects because I started sharing

Queen of Biohacking (42:12)

And my joke is that I go to people and say, hey, I’m really sad. And someone goes, wow, you’re so beautiful. And I said, wait, wait, wait, I just told you I’m sad. I’m really, really sad. Well, you look strong.

Queen of Biohacking (42:29)

You know, this is my joke on stage. go, well, I actually want to kill myself. And they’re like, my God, you should be a model. So people are not even listening to me when I’m telling them something’s wrong inside. And ⁓ when you appear good on the outside again, I ⁓ also related to me wearing makeup and putting on more fancy clothes is the sadder I am inside. Because when I’m just in such a place of acceptance, especially at the Iwaska ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (42:57)

You can find me in like super hippie clothes, barefoot, my hair’s a mess, I’m not wearing makeup. And ⁓ I’ve noticed the sadder I get in life, the more I put on on the outside, the more I create a barrier of really who I am to the world. And that’s what I also love about ayahuasca ceremonies. ⁓ That was something Aya told me is like, if you’re not dancing, you’re not happy. Because when I’m around the fire and I hear the drums and I can move my body.

Queen of Biohacking (43:25)

That’s my spirit telling me like you’re in a great atmosphere. You feel welcomed. And I’ve been in places afterwards where I’ll feel music and then I actually don’t want to move like a lotus flower feeling constricted. And it really connected me with the spaces that allow me to be free and authentic. It doesn’t mean I’m happy. This is such a joyous place because again, being allowed to be in places that maybe you don’t want to be, but you can handle it and it’s not affecting

Queen of Biohacking (43:55)

Because when we create a backpack of, I’m not going there because this one has that belief. I’m not gonna go knock on that person’s house on Halloween because they’re either vaccinated or unvaccinated or they’re a Republican or a Democrat. Like people create a backpack. I can’t, can’t, I can’t. And then by the time you go out of the door, you can’t even walk out the door. The backpack is so big because you don’t wanna have a trigger, you know? And… ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (44:22)

The mind over matter, especially with ayahuasca, allowed me to realize I’m not a gun. I don’t have triggers. This is just pain that I’ve hold. And if I let go of the pain, nobody can trigger me. And now it’s like I’m that person that I used to just can’t stand. How do you not have a trigger? know, how could you be around people that are so evil or abusive? But it’s because, ⁓ right, it’s all a matrix and it’s how are ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (44:48)

⁓ transmuting that energy to be the change we want to see. ⁓ know, and ⁓ that’s where mental health really helps me. And I tell people all the time when I go to the conferences and I started going to more medical related conferences, which at first was, ⁓ I was like, ew, I hate the hospital, the medical field, the cutting, the prescribing. But even now, when I look at my YouTube videos from a year ago, I think I’m such a rigid B ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (45:19)

You know, because I’m like, ⁓ ew, the medical system. There’s so much good that they do. I’m sure they keep so many people alive, you know, and doing the best that they can. So just allowing the rigidity to wash off my hand and be open and welcoming for everything and to see the best of all. Because again, even doctors that are in mainstream medical, hopefully they’re doing what they think is best. Hopefully they’re not all evil, right?

Queen of Biohacking (45:47)

So it’s that same projection I had upon my husband. Everybody’s doing what they think is right, hopefully. Some people are not. But if we can all create a communication and be able not to switch our vibration to hate or anger, I mean, that’s where the mind over matter will change and bridge the gap between communities. Because I ⁓ can talk to doctors all the time, especially MDs, and they can hardly have a conversation with me. And it’s just because of their beliefs.

Queen of Biohacking (46:16)

It has nothing to do with the science. So that’s, know.

Sam Believ (46:20)

Yeah, well, I do believe ⁓ not everyone is evil and most people are just doing their best within the confines of ⁓ their environment. I think the problem is less ⁓ of the people and like doctors specifically. I think the problem is the system. Like there’s so much push, you know, like and the rules and some of them learn it in the wrong way as well. There might be ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (46:37)

Mm -hmm.

Sam Believ (46:44)

Evil people on the top, but maybe like maybe they’re not even just evil They’re just greedy and they just want to make money and they kind of know about anything else But it’s it’s most evident when we have doctors come come over here to the retreat like we had chief surgeons and some pretty Pretty advanced doctors where they cannot find any help and they’re in their own Medical system, so this is one. It’s like the one becomes obvious that yeah It’s it’s a missing link and like we can’t really just go blind and be

Queen of Biohacking (46:50)

Money, yeah.

Sam Believ (47:14)

You some people believe in ⁓ the physical body other people believe in in the the mind and other people believe in the spirit But the reality is like all three are correct, and we just need to figure out how to ⁓ communicate in between all of them so definitely Medicine physical body if I have a toothache. I’m not gonna go drink. I was gonna go to that It’s awesome to have that option, but if I’m like feeling depressed. I’m not gonna go taking at the presence This is when I’m gonna choose

Sam Believ (47:42)

to meditate or maybe attend the ceremony. ⁓ there’s spiritual ailments as well that most Western people don’t know about, but sometimes your issue is not even physical nor mental. There can be something else, and this is when you go to a shaman. The beauty of ayahuasca in a way that it kind of addresses all three, but of course not all the individual parts. So that’s a kind of easy entry for a lot of people to understand it.

Sam Believ (48:10)

You also mentioned the suicidal ideation and the amount of times we had people say they bought one way ticket to come here and if this doesn’t work they’re gonna kill themselves is like probably more than 10 now and as far as I know all of them are still alive because they left happier than ever so if you are listening to this podcast I say before you kill yourself just come here you know give it a try you know if it doesn’t

Sam Believ (48:38)

you know, whatever, but it works almost all, every time. It kind of like, ayahuasca is this unique way to just beat up this desire of life into you and just kind of show you the bright side. then, because like when you’re really depressed, it’s really hard to think of anything, but with ayahuasca sometimes you get this, it kind of lifts off the fork for a few weeks and gives you the energy to change things that actually are causing ⁓ the root, the root causes of that ⁓ strong depression to begin with. ⁓

Sam Believ (49:08)

Yeah, that’s what I wanted to comment on it. regarding what I wanted to ask you next is, you know, when you were in that space in the hospital and you were completely like beaten up by life, what helped you and why did ⁓

Sam Believ (49:35)

have this conviction of like mind over matter. Yeah, I’m gonna do it. I’m gonna meditate. And I saw photos of you in the ⁓ hospital bed and like doing yoga poses, looking very emaciated with like blue marks on your skin and stuff like that. So where did this fire come from? What helped ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (49:41)

Yeah.

Queen of Biohacking (49:51)

Yeah.

Queen of Biohacking (49:56)

So I think that’s where you go into the spirit body. We have our mind, our body, and our spirit. And oftentimes we don’t know why we’re doing things, or we might have deja vu, but I feel we’re all older than what is our age, you know? ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (50:15)

there was a spirit inside of me, my spirit. Everybody was telling me I was gonna die, but I had a huge, and for me I call ⁓ it God. And they just were consistently within me or talking to me, you’re not gonna die, ⁓ you’re gonna be fine. ⁓ Everybody told me my child would not live and the other voice, the other than conscious mind said, you will live. Your children will be fine. I ⁓ didn’t eat for nine months, I was intubated. ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (50:45)

you know, replace all my teeth afterwards, but the whole time also being on dilated morphine, Benadryl, Ambien, ⁓ they put so many opioids in my body. That was a weird process because I remember I was looking at a clock on the wall. And if it wasn’t for having an education, which is really good that I, you know, I was admitted to medical school before that happened. I’ve studied a lot. was a personal trainer, a yoga instructor.

Queen of Biohacking (51:14)

My mother was into yoga, ⁓ but I knew, okay, you should breathe 12 to 20 times per minute, but I’m not breathing. So there was like a different spirit in me that was like, look at the clock, breathe with the clock. So it was almost like my body was a machine and my spirit was watching me and I kept it going. And I was having a conversation with myself over the time. And again, completely nine months built up. I had lack of movement.

Queen of Biohacking (51:40)

range of motion from the nurses and things. So my spine got twisted. had pressure ulcers. I’ll send you a whole list of pictures. Maybe I’ll put it up there. But again, there was the spiritual part of me that absolutely 100%. No question, you’re going to be fine. So it’s hard to explain that to people. And even when people would talk to me, it was right there in front of me. And I’ve talked with a lot of veterans and victims of really bad trauma.

Queen of Biohacking (52:09)

And I could talk about a veteran who was set on fire in like a hole ⁓ and everybody died except him in this situation. But it’s almost like time paused for him. And he had a conversation with God or his spirit that said, you know, crawl out this way. It’s almost like you’re looking at your physical body in a different way and you have the choice. Like, do you want to call in all of those parts before? And I think ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (52:38)

by my mother giving me a spiritual practice since I was little. And I did smoke marijuana. I would do drummings on the beach. I would go to Reiki masters. I didn’t do ayahuasca yet, but there was a part of me that was like, you know, do you want to keep this body going, this meat soup? And so it was higher than my physical body and even my mind. Cause my mind would look at my sons. It would watch me look at my son. Well, if you die, who’s going to be that child’s mother? You know, like these two different things.

Queen of Biohacking (53:06)

So really it was just my spiritual practice helped me. I was a yoga instructor, so I knew how to breathe in different ways, especially when I was intubated, I ended up pulling the tubes out of my mouth. ⁓ They would put it back in, I think they put me on more Dilaudid and I pulled them out again. Finally, they came down, they’re like, why are you intubating her? She’s completely conscious, you ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (53:33)

And that was really the change when I’m like, no, I want to breathe on my own. And for so long, my spirit was watching the body allowing itself to die in it. I remember one day I was like, no, you can pull it out. You can breathe on your own. You don’t need this machine. And the sad part is when you’re in an ICU and you start pulling things out, people want to bind you or take your hands away and nobody understands what is the body doing, you know? And this is something I would love to bridge the gap

Queen of Biohacking (54:00)

create some type of machine that is saying, you know, the mind, the spirit knows it’s time to get off of this. And, you know, another man doesn’t know or woman, I don’t mean man and say man with a penis, but I mean, another human has no idea what’s going on within your spirit. So my spiritual practice and all the parts of me before this human body was even born, were within me, guiding me along the way. So that… ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (54:29)

is not the answer and the easiest one everybody wants to hear, but ⁓ it was a very spiritual moment where I think if people read books like Untethered Soul or books that help them realize there’s subconscious thoughts, conscious thoughts, there’s the spirit, the mind, the body, it’s all different things. And after going to Ayahuasca, you know, it’s ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (54:54)

You’re a piece of magnet in this world and all of the parts of you are just connecting, which make you stronger and safer and happier and more able. And it was all there anyways, but now you can feel it

Sam Believ (55:10)

Yeah, well, it’s good that ⁓ your mother instilled that spiritual grain in you. And I’m just kind of wondering if, if let’s say more more people would have had earlier ayahuasca experiences or just the spiritual awakening, how how differently different people might have acted in different situations. And I have a lot of questions about a different version of the world where it ⁓ is just a part of our normal thing. Like, you know, like if ⁓

Sam Believ (55:40)

Celebrate Christmas once a year. Why can’t there be a holiday where we ⁓ all drink I was go once a year It’s like it would be even pretty awesome I’m kind of I need to figure out how to create a day in the calendar like I would like to start in national I was good day ⁓ And ⁓ then we can start start slowly Organizing that so maybe maybe you know somebody who can teach me how to do that Yeah So, thank ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (55:46)

Yeah.

Queen of Biohacking (55:56)

Yes. ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (56:01)

Yeah, that would be awesome. I think that would be like the ultimate at your place. ⁓

Sam Believ (56:09)

Thank you so much, Lauren, for sharing. think your story is very inspirational for a lot of people. ⁓ And you mentioned before the episode that you were kind of thinking about starting a podcast. I think you’re 100 % sure. You can be one of those people who have the solo podcast where you just sit down and just talk for an hour. I don’t know how they do it, but you look like you definitely would be able to do that. just, ⁓ you sure can speak. You can just let it out, which is a unique talent. ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (56:29)

Yeah, I definitely can.

Sam Believ (56:39)

Where can people find more about you, about your work, about your ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (56:46)

So, and again, of course, I’m just gonna add one thing to the last. The more that people like you are doing this with me, I ⁓ think people that are where I was in the hospital, how much of a blessing would it be to say, let’s have you come to them in the hospital or them come to you and ⁓ maybe even bill insurance one day or make it more, you know, available. So that’s really why I’m here with you today is so when people are in my situation.

Queen of Biohacking (57:14)

They don’t have to seek so much outside and they can, that someone says, you know what, I’m a professional and this is what I recommend. So that’s my goal and thank you for giving the platform to do this. If people are in Tampa, Florida, I have a clinic called the Excercise Science Center and it’s in Lutz, Florida, which is a little bit sub, like north of Tampa. And I just opened the Zen powerhouse.

Queen of Biohacking (57:39)

And we’re actually working on like a plant medicine registration for this to like kind of teach more, guide more. We’re not going to be doing ayahuasca retreats at all because I definitely want to connect with communities like yours where you have the shamans and the geographical location to help people step outside of their day to day and really respect what they’re about to do. Cause some people might try to tie it into like a quick weekend or like, I’m going to go back to work. But.

Queen of Biohacking (58:08)

The integration is so important. So I can’t wait to host, co -host a retreat and bring you guys, all of my followers to, how do I pronounce your center? Lawara? Lawaira. ⁓ the ch ch ch ch. Does that have to do with the Y? I see it on the thing. Ch So cool.

Sam Believ (58:21)

Lawyra. Yeah, yeah. That’s… Yep, yep. But it’s not just the shamanic branch. also means air and wind in their languages.

Queen of Biohacking (58:37)

Mmm. Wow, that’s special since I’ve been watching Avatar with my son. I’m an airbender. ⁓ But so the Exer Science Center, I’m also known as the queen of biohacking. I know that I think Dallas hooked us up. Dallas ⁓ from Biohackers magazine. ⁓ And if you’re in, if you don’t have this magazine, I would definitely download it.

Queen of Biohacking (59:04)

but I speak about my journeys in here and I can even write about our podcast for the next one, but it’s called The Queen’s Corner. So you can find it in every episode. This one I’m talking about aging with grace and this one I was talking about 10 top biohacks, but I think Dallas get ready. We’re gonna talk about plant

Sam Believ (59:24)

Come over to ⁓ Loira and after you have your experience here, you can write about that in the next journal. There will be some good content, I’m

Queen of Biohacking (59:31)

That would be beautiful. I can’t wait.

Queen of Biohacking (59:36)

Perfect. And then I’ll also tag you on my Instagram so the followers will connect with you. And if you want to go to an amazing retreat center, I kind of wanted to make a note so my followers know. I was just in Costa Rica and they were talking about another center that was very, very expensive. ⁓ And ⁓ can you explain maybe briefly like an estimated cost? Because things can change year to year. But what is the average retreat at your space? ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (60:06)

would cause somebody.

Sam Believ (60:08)

So we are at the moment and it can change because inflation is brutal and I can’t really tie myself to the price because money keeps losing its value all the time. But our retreat starts from $4 .95. So $4 .95 for a four -day two -ceremony retreat that includes transport from the nearest big city, which is Medellin, and it includes food and accommodation in the shared rooms.

Sam Believ (60:34)

So a lot of people choose that. I would however not recommend it for the first timers. I would recommend one week for the first timers. One week is seven days. It’s $7 .95 and it’s four ceremonies. Once again accommodation, shared room, food and transport from the city included which is about I believe four or five, three to five times cheaper than any retreats that have similar

Sam Believ (61:02)

amenities or like reputation to us because we have at the moment 460 plus five star reviews on Google, ⁓ hundreds and hundreds of video testimonials. So like really impeccable reputation. And at the same time, we have like a really beautiful Maloka. The place is very beautiful. It’s a large property in here. And in the end, ⁓ just, you know, people just keep saying like, why are you so cheap? Well, the reason we keep the price low is because

Sam Believ (61:30)

my mission is to give ayahuasca to as many people as possible hopefully one day everyone but of course i know it’s not realistic but if if i would charge like three thousand dollars instead of 800 bucks i mean it means that i kind of contradict my own words so for as long as i can and for as long as we are managed to be profitable i’ll try to keep the price low ⁓ but yeah basically ayahuasca saved my

Sam Believ (61:57)

changed my life, made it better in every sense. So I want to experience that. I’m not an ayahuasca maximalist. I know that ayahuasca is just a part of it. It’s just this big ⁓ opening, this big door that you open to then the rest of the healing. So I’m a big fan of yoga, meditation, breathing exercises. We provide all of them to our visitors as well. I’m a big fan of group sessions as well. yeah, ⁓ mean, people that are listening to this podcast probably know.

Queen of Biohacking (62:09)

Wow. ⁓

Sam Believ (62:25)

know about that but for your listeners so you know. But we also do longer retreats. longest retreat we do is 18 days. I don’t have the price from the top of my head but it’s reasonable.

Queen of Biohacking (62:36)

I would love an 18 day retreat. We can come up with that. I love to host retreats from the inside out with wellness. And I know you love biohacking. So I can’t wait to see what the future holds for Dr. Lauren and la ra ra. ⁓

Sam Believ (62:54)

It’s ⁓ it’s la like all the Spanish words with la and then you say why as in like question mark why and then ra la why ra Yeah, la why

Queen of Biohacking (62:59)

Y la y ra la y ra la ra ra. ⁓ I’m going to make it better. So I will see you later. ⁓

Sam Believ (63:08)

Okay, ⁓ lauren, thank you so much for coming on the episode ⁓ guys You’ve been listening to ayahuasca podcast .com as always with you the home host sam believe and I will ⁓ See you in the next ⁓

Queen of Biohacking (63:23)

See you later.

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ has a conversation with Dr. Lauren Alderfer, an award-winning author, educator, and microdosing coach. Lauren has over 20 years of experience living in the Indian subcontinent, decades of meditation practice, and a unique perspective on mindfulness and microdosing.

We touch upon topics of:

Lauren’s introduction to plant medicine in Ecuador (01:02)

The benefits of microdosing versus macrodosing (03:58)

The importance of mindfulness in microdosing (05:19)

How mindfulness enhances psychedelic experiences (07:12)

Cultural misconceptions about microdosing (07:58)

Using mindfulness to enhance macrodosing journeys (08:43)

The analogy of microdosing as a ‘dirt bike’ on the journey to mindfulness (13:26)

Differences between microdosing various substances (14:22)

Matching intention with the right plant medicine (15:21)

The importance of discernment in microdosing practices (16:17)

Lauren’s journey as a mindfulness-based microdosing coach (47:23)

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats, go to http://www.lawayra.com.

Find more about Lauren at http://www.laurenalderfer.com and on Instagram @laurenalderfer.

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:05)

Hi guys and welcome to ayahuascapodcast .com. As always with you the host Sam Biliyev. Today I’m interviewing Lauren Alderfer. Lauren is a PhD, she’s an educator, she’s a award -winning author, ⁓ microdosing coach. ⁓ She has experience of decades of meditation. ⁓ She lived in an Indian region for 20 years and lived in Indian subcontinent for 20 years. So she has a very unique.

Sam Believ (00:34)

perspective on both mindfulness and microdosing, which are the topics for today. ⁓ Lauren, welcome to the podcast.

Lauren Alderfer (00:43)

thank you so much for having

Sam Believ (00:46)

It’s a pleasure, ⁓ Loren. So before we even begin talking about microdosing and mindfulness and your recent book, tell us what puts you on that path in life, which is ⁓ pretty uncommon.

Lauren Alderfer (01:02)

⁓ which are the paths of ⁓ mindfulness or the ⁓ path of plant medicine? ⁓

Sam Believ (01:09)

Well, I’m most interested in the plant medicine one, but of course ⁓ I’m sure one would not be complete with the other, without the other.

Lauren Alderfer (01:17)

Right. Well, when I think about my ⁓ experience with plant medicine, I really would like to go back to the early ⁓ 1980s when I first moved to Ecuador and we had an organic farm. And we were the only non -Indigenous people in our village. And so all my neighbors, by osmosis, I learned how to collect plants. None of them were psychoactive, but ⁓ we ⁓ would

Lauren Alderfer (01:42)

pick flowers and blossoms and different things, we put them in the bathwater with our babies. ⁓ And then my husband and I opened an organic store, one of the first natural health food stores in Ecuador, and I would sell about 30 different kinds of plant medicines. So what I mean to say by that is when we talk about plant medicine, we’re talking about a relationship with the medicine as being an integrated part of who we ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (02:08)

part of how we live with the natural world. It’s not just something we take and ingest. ⁓ So I think that that experience from so many years ago has been a real foundation for me. And then when I actually ingested ayahuasca and had my first ceremonies, I had been trying, I wanted to do it for quite a few years in the most recent years, but I never really ⁓ experienced plant medicine as ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (02:38)

ayahuasca and the Andes when I lived there. ⁓ in more recent years, I did have the opportunity because I felt all the conditions were right. ⁓ And I ⁓ went to Columbia and had some beautiful experiences with the plant medicine there.

Sam Believ (02:55)

That’s really nice. I’m glad you ⁓ had this experience talking about ayahuasca in Colombia. It’s a big passion of mine because when I first came to Colombia, I ⁓ was already interested about trying ayahuasca, but I didn’t know it was a thing here. when I learned that it is a possibility and I started working with the medicine myself, our website, even though our retreat is called Lawyra, our website still is ayahuascaincolombia .com. I wanted people to know that there is ayahuasca in Colombia.

Lauren Alderfer (03:24)

Hahaha!

Sam Believ (03:24)

⁓ Because a lot of people don’t know, but ayahuasca popularization in the Western world actually started in Colombia, not in Peru. Like ⁓ Richard Evans Schultes, he was doing his work in Colombia, including McKenna Brothers. They also traveled to Colombia. But then I’m assuming because of the violence, it was moved to Peru. And now we came to the point where people associate ayahuasca with Costa Rica and Peru, where ayahuasca is

Sam Believ (03:53)

has nothing to do with Costa Rica, but nevertheless, we’ll fix that historical mistake. And my hope is to give Columbia the attention it deserves. It’s such a wonderful country. So I know you have experience both working with ⁓ the big doses of the medicine, obviously with the ayahuasca, but your focus is more on the microdosing. Can you talk to us a little bit about that? What are the differences?

Lauren Alderfer (03:58)

Yeah. ⁓

Sam Believ (04:20)

and why are you focusing more on microdosing.

Lauren Alderfer (04:24)

Well, thank you for that question because I think microdosing is not as well understood and I think so much of the attention is around having a ⁓ macro dose and there’s so many people who are working in this space such as yourself giving a wonderful container for people that want to experience the transformative potential of these plant medicines and I think there’s so many people ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (04:51)

that I would trust and recommend, in the microdosing space, I think they’re less. So I don’t feel like whatever I do, ⁓ I end up in a situation that I didn’t think I would, and it’s just unfolding. And if someone wants a macro dose or a higher dose through a ceremony, then I would recommend so many people such as yourselves to have that experience. But I feel really comfortable in the microdosing space. And ⁓ since there’s not that many people

Lauren Alderfer (05:19)

speaking out as compared to the higher dose space, feel very, that’s where I feel my voice ⁓ is best served and my experience best served. Having said that, I bring the sense of mindfulness to the space of microdosing, but it’s really whatever I say about mindfulness ⁓ and my, ⁓ hopefully the narrative around cultivating more mindfulness in psychedelics in general can be heard even for the macrodosing.

Lauren Alderfer (05:48)

Because whatever mindfulness -based approach we bring, it’s the same whether it’s a microdose or a macrodose.

Sam Believ (05:58)

Yeah, it’s interesting in a way that there is this cultural misconception, I would say that when you work with mega doses of psychedelics, people seek guidance because obviously it’s scary. But when they work with smaller doses, for some reason they assume that, you know, I can do it by myself. And yes, absolutely you can, but I would assume it’s better with guidance just as you can go to the gym yourself. But if you have a trainer, it’s going to be a much ⁓

Sam Believ (06:28)

productive experience. So obviously you ⁓ have experience with that. how does mindfulness tie in ⁓ somebody’s microdosing journey and how does mindfulness enhance somebody’s microdosing experience?

Lauren Alderfer (06:43)

Well, they’ll enhance both the microdosing or a ceremonial dose ⁓ equally in the sense that as we build the skills of mindfulness and as we bring in mindfulness as a very explicit way of experiencing these plant medicines, it enhances both the mindfulness process as well as our ability to just sit with what is, what arises without judgment, with a sense of equanimity, with a sense of an open heart. ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (07:12)

when we explicitly integrate these skills, then it does enhance the journey, whether it’s on a microdose level or a macrodose level. So for instance, ⁓ using discernment is one of the first skills I talk about. Discerning what are the causes and what is the set and setting? Do you feel safe? Do you feel held with trust? Because as you know, if someone comes to ⁓ you in Columbia,

Lauren Alderfer (07:42)

What you’ve created is absolutely beautiful, but people also know they’re with, as you say, someone who’s trained, someone who’s gone before, so they’re in a safe space. So the same thing with microdosing, to seek out someone who’s trained or has a lot of knowledge about how to microdose. So that sense of discernment builds trust so that you can open your heart. Yeah. And then also the idea of beginner’s mind, to allow

Lauren Alderfer (08:09)

curiosity, imagination, not to have such fixed ideas of what an outcome will be. So those are just two examples of how we ⁓ can really cultivate discernment and beginner’s mind, and it already helps the set setting before we have our plant medicine.

Sam Believ (08:28)

⁓ And so ⁓ you’re explaining how the mindfulness can enhance ⁓ the psychedelic experience. What about how can somebody’s psychedelic experience enhance their mindfulness? Do you have opinion on

Lauren Alderfer (08:43)

⁓ I have a lived experience, which is why I am now a mindfulness author and I’m a microdosing author and advocate, which is that I have spent many, many years, decades in fact, with a mindfulness practice since I was a kid, ⁓ actually is when I started. And it’s hard work. It’s hard work because when you’re sitting and doing a practice, you’re using effort, you’re training your mind. In Tibetan, the word is lojong.

Lauren Alderfer (09:12)

⁓ You’re not just sitting there relaxing, it’s work. when you have these through, in my own case, I can only speak for myself, but obviously you can read about it in books and go to teachers who have experienced non -linear states of being, non -ordinary states of being. But for me, it took many years of hard work to really be able to access those non -ordinary states and all of the ⁓ benefits they have ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (09:40)

changing the way your lived experiences living with a sense of everything’s okay i’m not just this body i am part of this unifying field of oneness and love so we we see that it’s not necessarily a guarantee but people have access to that experience ⁓ with ⁓ ceremonial doses of ayahuasca within the right environment so

Lauren Alderfer (10:05)

It’s very similar. The narrative around taking high doses is very similar around the narrative of ⁓ a meditation path because people in general are very fixed in their narratives and their ruminating thoughts. both plant medicine and mindfulness practice help us to break open and see things in a new and fresh way, experience different parts of our brain, which we now see with neural connections, which we can prove and ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (10:34)

through fMRIs happen with mindfulness practice as well as with plant medicine.

Sam Believ (10:43)

Yeah, thank you for this explanation. The analogy that I really like, and I don’t know who is it by, maybe you know and you can fill the gap, but it’s about, you know, if you put, you imagine a mountain and a ⁓ non -ordinary state of consciousness or this state of enlightenment or nirvana is the top of that mountain, then ⁓ the mountain has many different paths you can climb, but you know, hundreds of them. ⁓

Sam Believ (11:10)

Mindfulness is one of them and it’s a very sort of maybe slightly less steep but a very long way that you have to get there and There’s many ways, you know yoga and even religious practices and fasting and you name it but ⁓ in that case ayahuasca in my opinion in big doses is Is like a helicopter it takes you all the way to the top, but there’s there’s a culprit ⁓

Sam Believ (11:37)

You can only stay there for a certain amount of time and then it’s going to bring you bring you back down. Maybe not to the base camp, but somewhere in the middle. And from then on, you will have to, if you want to go there and stay there in that state, you will need to take a slower path like, like a mindfulness practice. ⁓ do you know, do you know whose analogy is that or, or ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (11:58)

Well, I’ve heard that in teachings said in so many different ways. I bet it’s like a folktale as well, right? ⁓ But I don’t know if there’s but when you find out, let me know or anybody listening. Yeah. ⁓ But it is true. I think, so I’ve been very motivated when I ⁓ write about and teach about mindfulness, it’s about relieving suffering. I think people are in such a state of suffering ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (12:26)

We are trying to bring more connection to that ground of well -being that we all have. ⁓ And yes, like you say, the path was very long ⁓ with wonderful things throughout the path. But plant medicine ⁓ is such a faster path ⁓ if done with respect, with honor, with mindfulness. If you approach it from really that heart space but with the discernment,

Lauren Alderfer (12:53)

I think that the respectful use of plant medicine is making such an amazing difference that ⁓ it’s our friend and companion and ally that is helping relieve so much suffering. And I’m sure you’ve seen it through people that come through and in your own life, ⁓ through your own experience with the plant medicine, with ⁓ ayahuasca. ⁓ It’s just very, it’s a very exciting time that now these medicines ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (13:22)

more accessible to more people.

Sam Believ (13:26)

Yeah, I guess going back to that analogy, ⁓ your journey is mindfulness and you’re going through this long and slightly less steep path, it’s just slow, but it’s ⁓ manageable. And then in that case, if you add microdosing to it, it’s as if now you have a dirt bike and it’s much more efficient. You’re taking a same path, with more energy. So psychedelics really seem to be this very strong tool, but also once again,

Sam Believ (13:54)

if you have this dirt bike, but you don’t know how to ride it and you just, you know, go in the wrong direction, then it’s ⁓ might be counterproductive. So I guess that’s a, that’s a really good and very complete analogy that allows you for a lot of flexibility. So ⁓ when we talk about micro dosing, do you have, do you talk about any specific plant or specific substance? Because you can, you can micro dose mushrooms, can micro dose LSD. I know people that micro dose ayahuasca even.

Sam Believ (14:22)

When you refer to microdosing, what specific medicine are we talking

Lauren Alderfer (14:30)

Whenever I invite people to approach things mindfully, never say what to do, but for people to look at their using their own discernment, ⁓ what’s right for them. So I do believe that every plant medicine and what we can mushrooms, technically being a fungi, but as sacred earth medicine, they all have their signature personalities. So ideally ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (14:51)

you match that to what your intention is. And I describe intention as a sankalpa, which is like a deeper truth that’s hidden within that you are trying to reveal. ⁓ And ⁓ the plant medicine helps support that. So that would be ideal. And within mushrooms, there are also different varieties. And also with ayahuasca, with the vines, I’m sure everybody makes their own brew. And so there are certain people, all the energy that goes into whatever the plant medicine being offered is has so many ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (15:21)

elements and qualities to it, but I also ask people to consider where they live and what they’re comfortable with. Some people don’t want to do something that’s not legal or get something sent in the mail. If you’re in the United States, if it’s a federal crime or if you’re in Holland, you might try truffles rather than mushrooms because one’s legal, one isn’t. So really whatever ⁓ makes sense for that person. I think all the medicines are ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (15:47)

have their potential. then again, as you say, if someone’s microdosing ayahuasca, for instance, B -CAPI can be is very easy to get and it’s not illegal. ⁓ But it’s not the full ayahuasca. So ayahuasca with both vines can, as you say, can be microdosed and people do microdose. And I know people who are facilitate that kind of ⁓ training for people who are interested in that. But it’s a ⁓ more nuanced

Lauren Alderfer (16:17)

⁓ way of microdosing, but then seek whatever you do, as you said before, to seek out someone that can hold the container for you through that experience.

Sam Believ (16:30)

Okay, so it’s good to know that I guess you’re flexible. Yeah, there’s many things that can be microdosed and I guess ⁓ they have differences, but the similarities, they all lead to the similar opening that then allows your mindfulness to be more efficient. ⁓ Can you talk to us a little bit about ⁓ what is the difference between mindfulness and meditation?

Lauren Alderfer (16:57)

Well, I use the term mindfulness based on this Pali word Sati, which has many different definitions, but it’s just remembering and recollecting. ⁓ But also, ⁓ mindfulness, when I started writing about it, was more of a secular term. ⁓ meditation has more of ⁓ a ⁓ specific term within a specific faith or practice. So whenever I write ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (17:26)

offer things I try as best as I can to not other and to use terms that are ⁓ open to all, no matter your background or religion or faith practice or views on things. But in fact, mindfulness can be a meditation practice and mindfulness can be a path in meditation.

Sam Believ (17:51)

And ⁓ speaking of ⁓ meditation, is there any ⁓ favorite meditation of yours, something that you like to practice or maybe even ⁓ something short you would like to offer to our guests to experience, ⁓ to feel the mindfulness, to kind of understand what it is we’re talking

Lauren Alderfer (18:10)

Sure, I ⁓ would love to do that. And I almost always start out anything with a mindfulness practice. And ⁓ before I do that, can I just make one more? ⁓ I’d like to just touch on one thing, which is because you do a beautiful job of offering a container for people to come to Columbia, stay at that ⁓ in such, you you’ve explained where you are, and it’s

Lauren Alderfer (18:36)

perfect climate it’s love it’s it just it just helps the body relax but you feel safe ⁓ and your medicine is so pure so people have all the outer environment to have a beautiful experience at a high dose so where does micro dosing fit into that as you said when you get to the top of the mountain you don’t just stay there. You know then you come back down and you might climb up again or get on the helicopter again.

Lauren Alderfer (19:02)

But what microdosing can do is once you’ve gone to the mountain and had these really big experiences, there is a natural outcome where people tend to want to microdose because what does microdose do? In ⁓ that sense, it helps that connection to that plant medicine and to that ceremonial experience. And ⁓ also sometimes people will start with a microdose

Lauren Alderfer (19:30)

And then they start to feel so comfortable that then they’re really ready mentally and emotionally for a higher dose. So ⁓ I’ve heard Paul’s dammit talk about that there’s just this natural interplay between a high dose and then going to a low dose. And also we know that the neural connections keep firing even with the low doses. We see the ⁓ fMRIs with a high dose, but we know it’s also happening with a low dose. And just finally, ⁓ we’re building that relationship ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (19:59)

with the medicine. ⁓ So you know that gentleness of the microdose can be compared to doing a meditation or mindfulness practice every day, but then someone wants to go to Bali or they want to go to India and they’re going to go to an intense 30 day or 40 day retreat. Well, we don’t live in that retreat. We come back into our daily lives and have that daily practice. So microdosing can be seen like that where we’re doing something in a gentle way.

Lauren Alderfer (20:25)

within your daily life that has profound effects over time and is very complimentary to the higher doses.

Sam Believ (20:32)

⁓ Yeah, thank you for this additional explanation. Yeah, definitely. I agree with ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (20:43)

Okay, so I happen to have my ⁓ Tibetan bowl nearby.

Lauren Alderfer (20:51)

and wherever people are, they’re driving, please do not close your eyes. ⁓ But just try to find a safe time and place ⁓ as you listen to the sound of the Tibetan bowl. And I’ll guide you through a short practice. ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (21:20)

Sometimes just listening to the sounds around ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (21:26)

A tuning to something that is not just in our thinking mind can bring us to a different place and experience of wellbeing, of connecting to that grounding force.

Lauren Alderfer (21:39)

But our breath is always with us, so we invite in a focus ⁓ on the breath. Just a gentle invitation, a ⁓ gentle awareness of connecting more of the body and ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (21:56)

and watching the inhaling breath and the exhaling breath, ⁓ not changing a ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (22:06)

But just through the power of simple observation, everything can change.

Lauren Alderfer (22:14)

We open the possibilities as we focus ⁓ our attention on the incoming and outgoing breath of the rising and natural releasing of the ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (22:28)

and the gap between the two, an ⁓ invitation of infinite possibilities.

Lauren Alderfer (22:39)

The breath, like life, is forever changing, unique in its instantaneous moment of arising, ⁓ as is the possibility for anything to arise and manifest in our own lives.

Lauren Alderfer (23:02)

watching the ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (23:06)

Understanding the possibility of infinite unfolding in ways yet not known. ⁓ The magic of the world also brings us to the reverent understanding and respect for the plant medicines that are here with us ⁓ in our natural world together, living and breathing.

Lauren Alderfer (23:34)

interacting in a reciprocal relationship always to serve

Lauren Alderfer (23:43)

as we are here to serve.

Lauren Alderfer (23:47)

And in this deepening connection, I ⁓ invite you to connect to that ground of well -being of deep connection, reciprocity, respect, and honor.

Lauren Alderfer (24:00)

which can only cultivate a ⁓ more loving heart, a more peaceful way of being, walking in the world more lightly.

Lauren Alderfer (24:38)

And in your own time, in your own way, coming back to the present moment, perhaps stretching your toes and your fingers, opening your eyes.

Lauren Alderfer (25:16)

How are you feeling?

Lauren Alderfer (25:20)

⁓ I can’t hear

Sam Believ (25:26)

I turned off my microphone so that none of my noises ⁓ disturb people’s meditation. I’m feeling good. I’m feeling ⁓ a little bit more mindful. It’s a nice. ⁓ That’s actually it was a lesson from ⁓ from one of my recent ayahuasca ceremonies where it ⁓ just reminded me about this patience and just to stop and just to just to be.

Sam Believ (25:56)

It was really interesting. I experienced the presence of ⁓ an animal which is a crocodile, which is a really unusual animal when it comes to ayahuasca. Normally people say jaguars and all kinds of more, let’s say glorified animals, but this crocodile was showing me like he was just sitting there on the top of the water with his nostrils and eyes and just completely chill, just

Sam Believ (26:23)

Patience and be in the moment, you know, the crocodile can eat its prey and just like float there for like three months at a time So it’s a pretty pretty mindful animal pretty Calm animal if you think about it this way So it was it was a lesson I got and since then I’ve been able to sometimes not always because you know how hard it is I’ve been able to sometimes I’m Hustling and bustling and I’m replying to messages and you know, you can imagine how it

Sam Believ (26:51)

how difficult it to run a retreat center, then I would just like notice it and I would just stop for a second, put my phone down, just look at a distance and just like get myself back. It’s a really nice practice. So hopefully you guys who are listening as well can take that and maybe occasionally a couple of times a day just bring yourself back ⁓ to the moment and release that tension, know, lower your shoulders ⁓

Sam Believ (27:20)

unclench your jaws and relax your eyebrows and just just be there in a moment. So thank you a lot, Lauren, for this ⁓ mini preview.

Lauren Alderfer (27:29)

⁓ You’re most welcome. You know, when we’re just, like you say, hustling and ⁓ all in our mind, ⁓ there’s a different offering when it’s a more fuller presence of who we are. And I truly believe that that energy gets transmuted and transmitted. So when we’re ayahuasca or cultivating mushrooms, ⁓ every single step of the way makes a difference. ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (27:58)

especially in the plant medicine space, to bring that sense of mindfulness into every single aspect. And as you said, you know, stop, you you breathe. It’s like to be aware because it does count. It does make a difference.

Sam Believ (28:12)

Yeah, so ⁓ as we just experience a little bit of mindfulness and people ⁓ might be considering, you know, maybe doing it more often, can we talk a little bit about benefits of mindfulness practice?

Lauren Alderfer (28:29)

of mindfulness practice is very similar to the benefits of microdosing. ⁓ There’s more of a sense of presence, of not doing like you were just describing and just being. ⁓ That’s one of the biggest benefits that people will say, I feel more present. And when we’re more present, we’re more available to others as well, right? And we’re more available to what unfolds. There’s a greater sense of equanimity. And when I say ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (28:58)

It doesn’t mean you’re neutral without any feeling. It means that you’re actually with a fuller heart, but you’re because when you don’t jump into say reactive, a reactivity mode, you know, it’s you have young children and you’re expecting your third. It’s a very, and you’re running a retreat center. That’s an extremely demanding time of life. And so, you know, ⁓ young mothers are, are a big community that are microdosing because it helps them.

Lauren Alderfer (29:28)

to just enjoy and be a little bit more at ease and less reactive because in a sense you are being asked to do so many things in so many directions. So it’s easier to just jump into reactivity mode. So the sense of equanimity is it’s okay, I can breathe, I can put some boundaries that help me be a better person. ⁓ And you can surrender to a certain degree, but always with a heart that feels more open, more full. ⁓ Connection is another

Lauren Alderfer (29:57)

big one, connecting to that sense of who you are. So when we’re so busy, busy, busy, we almost lose a connection. When people have depression, or especially mild depression, which a lot of people are coming to microdosing with mushrooms for that, is that there is a sense of deeper loneliness, that they’re in it alone, a ⁓ disconnection from their own sense of well -being. So that sense of connecting to yourself, but also connecting to people around you in your community is a big one.

Lauren Alderfer (30:27)

that comes with mindfulness and microdosing. And lastly, I’d like to say that when we are mindful, our heart expands. So we drop down from our monkey mind that’s always thinking, and we drop into our heart, which is always… So I always say we are cultivating a spaciousness of mind and an expansiveness of heart, because when we have those qualities of greater presence and equanimity, of mindful awareness and connection,

Lauren Alderfer (30:57)

We naturally have a heart physically you can see and I’m even changing just the way I am physically we expand you know we have that taller back a more soft chest and heart were physically expanding our heart is expanding our energy is expanding so with mindfulness that is a natural benefit ⁓ and it just helps ease the way in our day and become more proactive watching things happen.

Lauren Alderfer (31:26)

calmly abiding in life, but really generating out more loving compassion.

Sam Believ (31:33)

It’s great that you mentioned ⁓ microdosing ⁓ when it comes to mothers and you mentioned depression as well because ⁓ the reason I’m personally a fan of microdosing is ⁓ that it can be used sometimes where mega dosing is not really available. For example, when my wife had our second child, ⁓

Sam Believ (32:00)

I started noticing that she ⁓ was getting very negative and just kind of upset about things where there was really no reason to be upset. I was at first, I was like, are things really that bad? And then it just hit me that, you know, she’s sliding into depression and everything is doom and gloom. So, and just so happened to be, had ⁓ some mushrooms specifically. And so I put her in a microdosing ⁓ protocol. ⁓

Sam Believ (32:30)

I work with microdosing myself in the past. I’ve read a lot about it, so I know a fair bit about it. And within a few weeks, she was back to normal. So it’s an amazing tool that both she and me ⁓ now occasionally use. ⁓ Because ⁓ even though ⁓ we literally live with an iOS screw treat and have the medicine readily available, ⁓ in some stages of pregnancy, it’s not really ⁓ the best thing to do because obviously it’s hard in your body and can ⁓

Sam Believ (32:58)

purging can be challenging as well. it is a great tool when it comes to ⁓ that. Have you ever observed microdosing with ⁓ postpartum? What is your opinion on that? ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (33:10)

⁓ Well, I’m so glad you brought it up and I’m so happy that your wife found relief through ⁓ the plant medicine or through the sacred earth medicine of mushrooms, whichever she took. ⁓ it’s a very exciting time for women’s health when it comes to microdosing because I think, I believe it’s Ohio State is now undergoing some research using psilocybin for postpartum depression. ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (33:34)

We see now there’s a lot of ⁓ citizen science that’s coming out for breastfeeding. think in James Fadiman’s book, co -authored with Jordan Gruber, that’s coming out next year, we’re going to see that citizen science. A colleague of mine has just ⁓ done some of that research ⁓ with women who are breastfeeding and with postpartum, I believe. ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (33:57)

Women’s health has not really been the forefront of clinical studies, and now we’re seeing that the plant medicine has great promise. And ⁓ especially, and ⁓ what you just described is citizen science, and we can’t stop the citizen science, and people are finding these incredible changes that are so easy through microdosing, and that’s part of the reason why, excuse the pun, it’s mushrooming. ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (34:27)

We’re just gonna see more and more, but for women’s health and microdosing, it’s almost like a marriage made in heaven.

Lauren Alderfer (34:35)

Yeah, it’s a very exciting time.

Sam Believ (34:38)

Definitely, yeah, we live in very challenging times, ⁓ as you probably notice politically and environmentally, and there’s all kinds of conflicts. We also have a unique tool set available for us to overcome those challenges. ⁓ I wanted to talk about another benefit of microdosing that I think that, ⁓ or generally, I want to talk about my personal holistic view ⁓

Sam Believ (35:08)

plant medicine. So I think that somewhere there exists this perfect holistic protocol where you would combine something like for somebody who just embarks on this journey and let’s say somebody who is depressed. I would say for me and I would want to hear your opinion for me it would be something like you come in and you take ⁓ for example as you’re quitting antidepressants you could use microdosing to to help ⁓

Sam Believ (35:36)

offset the ⁓ negative effect, right? Then ⁓ you go for a full -fledged one -week ayahuasca retreat and you just deep dive and you address what is the root trauma that was causing you to be depressed in the first place or maybe life conditions. ⁓ And in this retreat, you learn about yoga, meditation, and journaling, because that’s what we do with people that come here. ⁓ We really train them on how to integrate. And then as you go ⁓

Sam Believ (36:06)

you start ⁓ after maybe a short break, you start working with micro dosing together with mindfulness as you integrate your experience. And then maybe you include other modalities like yoga or working with the integration coach or psychotherapy. And then maybe sometime like three, four months later, you work with the higher dose ⁓ of mushrooms. Again, back to integration.

Sam Believ (36:33)

And then maybe a year later, go back to ayahuasca. think like, I see this like perfect protocol that exists, ⁓ that needs to be discovered and, ⁓ popularized that would just completely, completely put somebody because like, if you just do a lot of ayahuasca and no guidance, no integration, you just go back to the real life. ⁓ you get your, you get beaten up by, ⁓ you know, how sick our society is. It’s really hard to be happy in that society, no matter how mindful you

Sam Believ (37:02)

And then like, think there needs to be this, it’s like big up and then bump, bump, bump and like another app. And so what do you think about that? Does it, does it make any sense?

Lauren Alderfer (37:11)

Well, it makes complete sense, and I think people are already doing that. They are already searching that out, and I think there are some, ⁓ I know personally of people who are doing something similar to what you’re saying, ⁓ because especially people ⁓ who suffer from ⁓ clinical depression that isn’t treated medically, that can’t be treated medically, you know, ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (37:37)

Everybody has a different brain and these medicines are helping our brain. So having a deep dive, but then the bump, bump, bump that completely changes things in a way that helps those neural connections is something that I have personally seen with others that has made a huge difference. ⁓ And we’re beginning to see different medicines and there are different ⁓ benefits for different things. when we’re talking about drug addiction versus ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (38:07)

a drug resistant depression. know, we see people seeking out different things that ⁓ it’s like, what’s going to help you stay alive? ⁓ as one friend said, this helped me stay alive. I’m alive today because of the plant medicine. But then it’s more than just to stay alive, then to start to be able to participate in your life in a way that feels hopeful and good is ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (38:36)

the support of different kinds of plant medicines or ⁓ sometimes, you know, with some of the other things that aren’t technically plant medicines, but psychoactive such as Bufo or something like that ⁓ has made significant differences in people’s lives. So I love what you are ⁓ proposing as you see, you ⁓ know, an offering for people. And yes, people are seeking things like this out right now. But ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (39:05)

You’re in Colombia, you know, and I’m in North America for the first time living here ⁓ after so many years and we have to ⁓ people do consider legal legalities and access and safety and trust. So ⁓ hopefully those are issues that will be more accessible to people in a way that they can make choices with discernment, knowledge, information, ⁓ safe environments.

Sam Believ (39:32)

Well, information is what we’re creating here right now, know, ⁓ educating people and giving them food for thought. But yeah, obviously, hopefully over time, legality issue will be a thing of the past as we understand that those are medicines and calling them drugs was a mistake to begin with. But yeah, regarding this whole holistic view, I think there is there needs to be more acceptance also in the the psychedelic space and even mindfulness space because there’s a lot of ⁓

Sam Believ (40:03)

conflict of interest as in like somebody will say, no, I will never do plant medicine because I only do this specific type of mindfulness work and that’s the only way. So it kind of like almost becomes this religious ⁓ zeal thing where like only this works and everything else is garbage. Kind of like ⁓ I recently went, my sister invited me to go to the Joe Dispense event and I was hesitant but I still went. I wanted to learn more.

Sam Believ (40:32)

And ⁓ I was really surprised that he would say negative things about plant medicines. And I was like, well, we’re literally doing the same thing, just like in a different way. Like, why would you say that? And ⁓ it’s strange, know, it’s strange. Like even in this tiny little world of like people that are seeking change, there’s still a conflict between like, it’s like my thing is the best. No, your thing is the best. Instead of being like, yeah, I’m going to use this and that and that, and I’m going to combine it all together. ⁓

Sam Believ (41:02)

So there’s, yeah, there’s this thing which I don’t necessarily understand. I don’t know if you want to comment on

Lauren Alderfer (41:09)

⁓ Well, I’d say that that was actually my own experience. think a lot of ⁓ because in my meditation, my years of mindfulness practice and through meditation, in my experience, I wasn’t it was you don’t do drugs, you attain these states of being these non ordinary states of being on your own without quote unquote intoxicants. So in a way, I felt that stigma. And that’s why it took me many, many years ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (41:38)

to even decide that I wanted to have a higher dose. ⁓ at that point, plant medicine was more a ⁓ part of ⁓ a public discourse. But then within the psychedelic landscape, a lot of the information goes back to the 60s, and there were a lot of drugs in the United States, and people indulged in lots of drugs. So some of the meditation teachers that we see today in the West ⁓ actually

Lauren Alderfer (42:07)

started out by having high doses and experiencing those non -ordinary states of being some of the most well -known teachers. ⁓ So ⁓ I find that very interesting, but in my own experience and spending so much time out of the United States ⁓ and through my practices, ⁓ it was really the narrative was don’t take intoxicants. So there was that stigma. So I had to come to my own understanding.

Lauren Alderfer (42:34)

that where I felt comfortable, which also took several years because I do, ⁓ everybody has their own path and everybody has a certain. ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (42:44)

Well, what I’d like to say is that with some of the people who have had those plant medicine experiences, they want to keep it quiet in the mindfulness world. it’s just a place and time where we’re at to understand. And I think things will change as we understand that we can look at it. It’s really the narrative that we’re trained to look at things as. And so I look at plant medicine as I do Ayurvedic medicine. And Ayurved,

Lauren Alderfer (43:14)

You take some things that can be poisoned, but you take it in a way that’s going to be beneficial. In homeopathic medicine, you take a micro micro dose of something that could kill you, but you use it in a way that’s going to build your immune system or in the case ⁓ in a specific case of, ⁓ so I look at plant medicine and psychoactives in that way. If we can understand that we are in this relationship with things and ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (43:43)

So for me, I’ve come to my own understanding of it. I presented in the book, ⁓ in my book, Mindful Microdosing, a guidebook and journal, I presented as invitations to ways of thinking about plant medicine. But I also see that, you know, everybody comes to their own life and their own decisions in their own way. But what you’re describing is definitely part of the psychedelic landscape of the sacred earth medicine landscape.

Sam Believ (44:11)

Yeah, definitely. you mentioned your book. Talk to us a little bit about that. Why did you feel ⁓ like writing that book? ⁓ for those who might be interested, why should they read

Lauren Alderfer (44:25)

So when I, this is the book came out in April, I wrote it ⁓ last year, which means that the idea was ⁓ a year before that. It came out quite quickly. It usually takes three years from ⁓ idea to publishing. But just a few, years ago when I became very involved in being trained as a microdosing coach, that’s when I ⁓ saw that there really wasn’t, at that time there really wasn’t, there wasn’t anything ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (44:55)

Amazon that had to do with mindfulness and microdosing if you go on Amazon today ⁓ There are so many there are quite a few choices Originally, I was just going to do a mindful microdosing journal. So it was just a journal, but then I felt that it needed a context so I give some background of What mindfulness is what microdosing is and then basically the three stages of microdosing is preparation when you’re actively microdosing and integration and then I was I was ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (45:25)

with some people that I highly respect in conversation that information is knowledge and it’s harm reduction. So I did include some charts that are usually referred to with permission from the microdosing institute, those are included. But I do so in a way of people trying to individualize the process so they have agency over their own decision making and what’s right for them. The reason why I wrote the book wasn’t because I set out to write a book. The reason was because as a mindfulness teacher and author,

Lauren Alderfer (45:54)

as I entered into the psychedelic landscape, I saw that there really isn’t a narrative around mindfulness as a foundation and pillar for psychedelic experiences, be it micro or macro. Trauma -informed is very much a big part of it as it should be. There are pieces of mindfulness within that, but to me, mindfulness as a mindfulness -based approach to ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (46:22)

wasn’t part of the narrative and because this is still a very new and changing pioneering landscape, ⁓ I felt that that would be of benefit to facilitators, owners of retreats like yourself. ⁓ And so that’s really what I ⁓ like to talk about and train facilitators in. But the book itself has that sense, but for microdosing, but ⁓ equally applicable to macrodosing. So for instance,

Lauren Alderfer (46:50)

If you want a beautiful journal, the illustrations are by a wonderful Mexican artist, Mariana Juarez. ⁓ It’s an opportunity to take the book and just use it as a journal for a higher dose as well. And the tenets of mindfulness are equally applicable to a higher dose journey or ceremonial journeys.

Sam Believ (47:11)

Thank you for sharing that. So you mentioned that you’re also a microdosing coach. Can you maybe tell us some stories or like unique challenges you encounter with people who are microdosing?

Lauren Alderfer (47:23)

Well that’s the most gratifying and why I just get fueled to keep speaking out. And one of the reasons I ⁓ like to speak out is because there are so many people who are younger with children and where things are not legal yet don’t feel like they can put themselves at risk. ⁓ I feel that I’m in position where I can do that. So when I’m working with people and I hear these extraordinary stories, it just makes me.

Lauren Alderfer (47:48)

more fuel to try to change laws and advocate for access to these amazing medicines that are here to serve us. ⁓ one of the, I’ll tell you maybe two, and then you ask me if we have time for more. ⁓ One is of someone who is a ⁓ veteran of a war who had been suffering from post -traumatic stress for decades and had, ⁓ after coming back, went for therapy and some treatment and nothing really helped. And so

Lauren Alderfer (48:17)

He just stopped and was not interested, is not interested in a higher dose, just not interested. And ⁓ for some reason, ⁓ there was a personal connection, so there was trust to at least, no, actually, he didn’t start microdosing with me. His wife did. He saw the changes in his wife so immediately, because it’s hard to be a caretaker or be in partnership with someone who suffers from PTSD and depression and ruminating thoughts. He saw her change so dramatically that then he came to me.

Lauren Alderfer (48:47)

Within a few weeks at a dose lower than 50 milligrams, which is usually what you see on the internet, he is sensitive to medicine. So we started at a lower dose. He said for the first time in decades, he didn’t stop having ruminating thoughts, but they didn’t take the hold and the grasp and catch him there. He could watch them and notice them instead. He said it was ⁓

Lauren Alderfer (49:14)

feeling like he had space and freedom for the first time in decades. This is with a microdose. Another current client ⁓ has many medications and has MS and is in chronic pain. She’s been in chronic pain for over a few decades. ⁓ And actually, I didn’t really want to take on this client because it was so complicated. I asked if I could be with a team of her doctors, but she had such a deep sense that the medicine is there to

Lauren Alderfer (49:44)

and her doctors weren’t supportive. So I always say to people, we’re on a journey together, a journey of unknowing and discovery. So if they trust me and we take it so slowly, but within a week or two, she said for the first time in years, she’s had a breath and a space from her pain. She notices the pain.

Lauren Alderfer (50:05)

she feels like there’s a window ⁓ and in the window there’s space. And then just a few days ago, she wrote that her husband said it was so good to hear her laugh in the morning. He hadn’t heard his wife or partner laugh in years because when you’re in chronic pain, you are in such deep suffering, not just physically, emotionally, you know, in your relationship. So those are just two stories just with microdosing

Lauren Alderfer (50:33)

And in both cases, it’s under 50 milligrams because when we microdose with that container of greater mindful awareness, that greater sensitivity, everything is enhancing each other to have a more beneficial outcome.

Sam Believ (50:50)

Beautiful stories, thank you for sharing them. Yeah, definitely having working with people and seeing their result is a great fuel for motivation because sometimes it can be difficult ⁓ and then a lot of times it’s going against the stream. ⁓ I think it was a really beautiful, interesting conversation, especially for people who are interested in microdosing. So as we wrap up, can you tell us more about…

Sam Believ (51:18)

⁓ where to find more about you, maybe people want to find you as a coach and also how is the best way for them to find your

Lauren Alderfer (51:27)

⁓ So my website is laurenaldifer ⁓ .com, my name, and I suppose you’ll also have that as a link. ⁓ And all the information is on there too. ⁓ If you want to work with me one -on -one, the book is also available as a link there onto Amazon. ⁓ So it’s available in Europe through ⁓ microdose, microdose NL, the biggest microdosing shop in ⁓ Europe and Holland.

Sam Believ (51:36)

You hear

Lauren Alderfer (51:55)

but it’s also amazon .ca in Canada, amazon .com in the United States, and those can be shipped to Columbia, wherever you are in the world. ⁓ I am currently working on a course that will be online ⁓ to accompany the book and give a fuller ⁓ context and container for microdosing. ⁓ So those are, and then of course I’m on Instagram and LinkedIn as Lauren Alderbrook.

Sam Believ (52:23)

Thank you, Lauren. Thank you so much for sharing. ⁓ Guys, thank you for listening to IOWASC podcast and I will see you in the next episode.

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ has a conversation with Maria Sophia Dimakos, a death doula, conscious dying coach, and therapist. Together, they explore topics including:

Maria’s early spiritual experiences and family background (00:48)

Navigating the thin line between spiritual gifts and mental health (04:20)

Exploring the Greek spiritual mysteries (07:48)

The spiritual symbolism of the Minotaur and Sam’s personal experience (14:57)

The concept of a good death and her initiation as a death doula (18:46)

Grieving practices and the art of embracing death (29:18)

Experiences with ayahuasca and the intersection of death and plant medicine (32:45)

Confronting and integrating death during an ayahuasca ceremony (33:26)

Heaven, hell, and life after death through Maria’s lens (36:37)

The importance of dietas in spiritual practice and plant medicine work (50:35)

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats, go to http://www.lawayra.com.

Find more about Maria at TheMariaSofia on Instagram or her podcast Suddenly Spiritual.

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:02)

Hi guys and welcome to Ayahuasca Podcast as always with you the host Sambiliyev. Today I’m having a conversation with Maria Sofia Dimakos. ⁓ She’s a death doula, she’s a facilitator, ⁓ conscious dying coach and a therapist. Maria welcome to the show.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (00:20)

Thank you so much Sam, so good to be here. All the way live from Greece, no less.

Sam Believ (00:26)

⁓ Yeah, we’re to talk about that as well, Greece specifically and what brings you there. ⁓ But before we go into deeper topics, tell us a little bit about yourself and how did you find yourself in ⁓ that line of work, know, spirituality and such. ⁓

Maria Sophia Dimakos (00:48)

I actually, as a young child, I would say as early as maybe three years old, I always had an inclination to see other realms, I would say, or ⁓ things that were the unseen. I remember even as early as three, I envisioned some sort of death realm as a child. And then ⁓ I remember speaking with other beings, which I called angels at that time, to my parents.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (01:18)

And my parents were very scared, ⁓ especially since I grew up in a very religious household. My father was Greek Orthodox and my mother is Seventh -day Adventist, which is ⁓ very diametrically opposed Christian denominations, but very intense in their beliefs. So even as a young child, ⁓ had gifts, abilities of sight. And unfortunately, my very well -meaning parents thought that it was

Maria Sophia Dimakos (01:46)

something that should be put under control and that we should stop it because it was considered something that was outside of what they believed. And potentially works of the devil, evil, all of that, which is rather interesting now that I look back on it. So I always have that inclination. My father, when I was 17 years old, tried to commit suicide. So I decided to become a psychotherapist from that experience because

Maria Sophia Dimakos (02:12)

It was obviously very traumatizing and I never wanted anybody to go through that again. I didn’t want anybody other than myself to go through that again. So I decided to go to graduate school and become a psychotherapist after I finished college. And I did that for five years and I worked in a high security locked psychiatric hospital. I almost said psychedelic hospital, a ⁓ psychiatric hospital. ⁓ And I ⁓ did that for five years and it was really depleting and demoralizing.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (02:42)

The system in the US is very much a sick care system and it’s not about helping people to get better in any way. It’s more about symptom management and giving people medications to control them, to control who they are and what they’re seeing and their symptoms. So I actually left, I had a spiritual awakening. I left psychotherapy ⁓ and I went into corporate America of all places and I went into marketing and I was in marketing for ⁓

Maria Sophia Dimakos (03:12)

almost 12 years. ⁓ it was a very, of all things you’d think like marketing seriously, but it allowed me to use a lot of my psychology background with just people’s behavior, which is great. But then I saw the corporate greed at the higher levels. And again, it was very disheartening. And I knew that there needs to be a better way for me, there needs to be something else for me to do where I can use my gifts and abilities.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (03:41)

for people’s greatest and highest goods and just the people and the world and the planet. So yeah, ⁓ it’s been a roller coaster journey.

Sam Believ (03:51)

Yeah, thank you for sharing that story. it’s interesting that ⁓ you kind of slipped to almost saying psychedelic hospital and put me on a train of thought, you know, how great it would be if we had a psychedelic hospital, right? Not like a place you come to and you take some ketamine and have two doctors sit with you, but like an actual hospital. And I guess that would be a dream for me to create, you know, as opposed to just an ayahuasca retreat, but actually have more.

Sam Believ (04:20)

more medical stuff, but you mentioned your gifts, right? And ⁓ a lot of times ⁓ people that can be spiritually gifted and can see stuff, maybe predict future, talk to spirits. ⁓ A lot of times in our society, they would be like, well, you’re obviously schizophrenic, right? So that line is very thin. I don’t know, like, have you thought about it? ⁓ Where is that line or how does one tell a difference or is there a difference?

Maria Sophia Dimakos (04:51)

That’s a great question and it’s so tricky and nuanced and it’s dependent on that person, what they’re experiencing. I could see that in my own life, I’ve had situations where what I was seeing was very disturbing to me. I used to have night terrors slash visions at night where they’re terrifying. I remember being 13 and just being scared of going to sleep because of what I was going to see.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (05:21)

Like all, it was like almost an ayahuasca journey at night being 13 and not knowing how to navigate or manage it in any way and not knowing what was going to happen. So every time I closed my eyes, I would, I hadn’t saw me for a long time because I was so scared of what I was going to see. ⁓ So I think it’s really nuanced when it comes to the line between.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (05:45)

pathologizing people and labeling people with schizophrenia or other mental health disorders. ⁓ And what is, you know, oracular visions or sites, as people called it. And I would imagine if I lived 3000 years ago, and I were to turn up in a temple with who I was as a, you know, as a five year old or as a six year old, I would just immediately be put into the temple and be made be trained, be trained to work with my vision.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (06:15)

But if ⁓ it was right now and I had a five -year -old who came to me and said what I said, perhaps if I was a therapist, ⁓ I would think that they had a mental health issue. So it’s really time. Time contacts the culture, what the culture sees ⁓ as ⁓ divergent behavior versus normal behavior. So again, it’s so nuanced.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (06:39)

And it does have to do with the context of the person because in other cultures, in other indigenous cultures, I would imagine if you’re in Peru or other places, if a child were to turn up with these types of qualities, they wouldn’t be seen as, they would not be seen as mentally ill. But in the U S they more than likely would be seen as mentally ill.

Sam Believ (07:01)

Yeah, it’s almost in ⁓ some some aspects of life where we’re living where normal what is normal now is actually sick and what is considered sick sometimes is actually a little more normal. But you mentioned temples, right? You if you were, know, if you were born in ancient Greece and you came to you would probably be sent to some kind of temple and be trained ⁓ and become some kind of oracle or something like that. So and you are in Greece right now and you are Greek.

Sam Believ (07:31)

And I think you know more than any of the guests we had on the show about Greek culture. So talk to us about that. I ⁓ believe you were going to ⁓ go to temple grounds and talk to the spirits. How did it go?

Maria Sophia Dimakos (07:48)

⁓ How did it go? What’d they say? I’m actually going to the island of Crete next week, ⁓ where the Minoan civilization existed. ⁓ And they had also their own mysteries. So Crete had its own mysteries, the island of Crete, it’s the largest island in Greece. ⁓ And they also had a ⁓ what we now call in Western society, a cult, a bee cult, like bee the actual, the winged creature that that

Maria Sophia Dimakos (08:17)

that beautiful little bee. ⁓ They had a cult and they had priestesses ⁓ of the bee. ⁓ also they had a, there’s a goddess. There’s a goddess that is holding two snakes, one in each hand. ⁓ She’s a very old goddess. They don’t understand very much about her. And there’s also a, ⁓ it’s like a plate, a circular plate with cuneiform on it. And it’s called the circle or the circle of thesdon.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (08:46)

Face on ⁓ and the face on disk. That’s what it’s called. And no archaeologist has been able to decipher what it means or what it says. There’s actually, want, if I’m not mistaken, there’s four of them ⁓ and nobody knows what it means. Nobody knows what it says. They believe that it potentially talks about a goddess cult. So I’m going to Cree on the 17th. next week, and I’m going to commune with that disk.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (09:13)

and start asking questions and having a dialogue with it, as well as that deity, that snake -bearing deity. I’m going to have a ⁓ conversation and dialogue and see ⁓ what these beings want, what they want, what knowledge and wisdom they have, and what my role is within that dissemination of their knowledge and wisdom. Like, ⁓ how can humanity move forward?

Sam Believ (09:41)

Interesting. ⁓ I’ll be interesting to ⁓ know what you find out. ⁓ Yes, snakes, you know, is a very, very common symbol, right? And with work with ayahuasca, people, you know, every second person sees snakes. And it’s generally a positive thing. But I, you know, you don’t really know what’s going to come up. talking about mysteries, The illusion mysteries, ⁓ hallucinian mysteries are the more famous ones. But there is

Sam Believ (10:09)

There’s different mysteries in different islands, as you say. ⁓ I would assume that, would it be safe to assume that they were also working with some kind of plant medicine, kind of like, like Elisunyans did?

Maria Sophia Dimakos (10:24)

Absolutely. ⁓ So my cousin goes to Mount Athos, which is a very well known monastery up in the mountains and he brought me back honey. And this honey, he brought back honey for me before and I looked at him and I said, this honey is not honey, it’s medicine. And he said, 100 % this honey is medicine. ⁓

Maria Sophia Dimakos (10:53)

In Crete, they have a lot of honey, which I also see as medicine. And I also believe that they have other psychedelic rituals with either mushrooms. Also, there was something about potentially acacia. So ancient acacia, which is very rich in DMT. So DMT rich acacia, mushrooms, certainly, potentially honey that has other psychedelic components in it. ⁓ And I ⁓ think that in Eleusis,

Maria Sophia Dimakos (11:22)

They had, you know, ergot, which was is the precursor to LSD. The the cookie on has 300 ingredients in it. So the that brew that they created has a lot of ingredients and we only have three of the ingredients because the rest of the recipe quote unquote was destroyed. And working with Ayahuasca, I asked her if she could help me to resurrect the recipe of the cookie on and

Maria Sophia Dimakos (11:52)

she said she would help me, but it’s not going to be the same. She said, you’re not here to make the same recipe. You’re here to make something similar, but I will help you. it’s not going to, I don’t think maybe someone will crack that code of the cookie on and get all 300 ingredients in the right percentages and mix. But I think what I’m here to bring in is something new with very ancient roots. ⁓ So

Maria Sophia Dimakos (12:18)

My own work with medicine has brought me to that conclusion and I see Ayahuasca as my greatest teacher and I have deep love and reverence for her and I trust her. I really trust her.

Sam Believ (12:31)

It’s incredible to ⁓ think about, ⁓ Kikion was lost, or you said Kukion, probably you know the better word, Kukion. ⁓ And ⁓ soma, you know, ancient Indians were using was lost. And how lucky are we that ayahuasca wasn’t lost? Because it’s a, mean, imagine if we knew that there was a thing called ayahuasca, and it’s just these two plants, but we don’t know which ones. Imagine how long it would take us to find it, but not just the recipe of the medicine itself, but the entire tradition.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (12:43)

Okay.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (12:48)

thank God.

Sam Believ (13:02)

the shamanisms and the lineages. So we’re so lucky that ⁓ that survived. yeah, is, I believe it is the key to finding the other stuff because I’ve heard of a story ⁓ of there is a medicine called Wilka and I’ve tried it myself. And it is when you consume a San Pedro cactus and then you get a DMT snuff blown up your nose. And it’s actually very similar to ayahuasca in my experience. But what they said is that the way they discovered it was

Maria Sophia Dimakos (13:02)

Mm

Maria Sophia Dimakos (13:19)

Yes.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (13:29)

Thanks for watching.

Sam Believ (13:32)

recently rediscovered this is that they were drinking San Pedro in ⁓ one of those ancient megalithic temples in Peru and as they were drinking San Pedro there they could see all of a sudden the inscriptions on the temple start to make sense and those inscriptions taught them to go and get the seed of that plant and then use it and ⁓ honestly Wilke is much stronger than just San Pedro and much more profound so I do believe that

Sam Believ (14:00)

I know if you have any ayahuasca with your mushrooms, ⁓ which probably would be illegal in Greece, but ⁓ if you could take some other psychedelics and then through them try to… I ⁓ mean, I’m sure you have your gifts, but probably would be stronger and you could find the recipe. That would be a fascinating story. I don’t know. It just sounds so great. ⁓ One question for you. Do you know about… ⁓

Maria Sophia Dimakos (14:03)

I wish. It is.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (14:19)

Thank

Sam Believ (14:28)

which mystery does ⁓ Minotaur belongs to?

Maria Sophia Dimakos (14:30)

⁓ yes. The Minotaur belongs to the island of Crete.

Sam Believ (14:38)

Mm -hmm.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (14:39)

Yeah, so it belongs to the island of Crete ⁓ and there is a labyrinth, like that’s where the name labyrinth came from. He is, he was placed in a labyrinth ⁓ and he was actually created by his father, long mythological story. But yeah, the Minotaur is on the island of Crete.

Sam Believ (14:57)

What is the meaning of him? And I’m asking for myself because maybe two months ago I had an ayahuasca experience where for some reason, it ⁓ never happened to me before out of like probably hunger plus ceremonies, but I was actually becoming a minotaur and I freaked out and I kind of shook it off. But I was, you know, I could see, you know, fur and I was feeling like this, not really minotaur, but it was like this presence of like ⁓ a bull.

Sam Believ (15:27)

plus human, ⁓ but it didn’t feel evil or something like that because the reason I freaked out was like, know, this is something evil, know, animals and, know, bulls specifically doesn’t have a good reputation when it comes to like organized religions. But it felt really, actually when I went back to those thoughts, it felt really natural and just like animal and like kind of strong, but kind. So I was interested, maybe you could.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (15:28)

huh.

Sam Believ (15:55)

help me decipher that. What would that mean for me?

Maria Sophia Dimakos (16:00)

⁓ snakes don’t have a good reputation in organized religion either. ⁓ Snakes and bulls and all kinds of things don’t have good reputations. But what I would ask you is, what does a bull symbolize for you? What does that mean to you? When you saw yourself as the minotaur or this bull, half bull, half human being, how did it feel in your ceremony when you embodied that?

Sam Believ (16:04)

Mmm.

Sam Believ (16:26)

So ⁓ my reaction to that, because it never happened to me before, ⁓ it ⁓ was not just like a vision. I was seeing my legs and they were becoming hooves and there was this like kind of grayish fur and I could feel myself making bull sounds. ⁓ But it felt like, for me bull is, ⁓ I’m a Taurus by a sign, so I guess it kind of makes sense, but

Maria Sophia Dimakos (16:38)

Mm -hmm.

Sam Believ (16:55)

For me, bull signifies ⁓ power, persistence, ⁓ of like gentle power, I think. ⁓ yeah, that’s kind of what I think about it. it’s not what it was. My reaction to it really scared me. But now, after I analyzed it the next day, I was really hoping I could relieve it, but it never happened again. So I scared ⁓ my spirit animal away.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (17:25)

Is there something in your life where you feel you need more persistence or power in?

Sam Believ (17:31)

I mean, in this line of work, ⁓ there’s not ever enough persistence and willpower for me because, ⁓ it’s very difficult running an ayahuasca retreat and, you know, everything that comes to it and building and sometimes I’m surprised why I’m not burnt out just yet or maybe I am and I don’t know how to diagnose myself.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (17:55)

Well, maybe perhaps as an interpretation, maybe your vision in medicine was telling you that you already have all of the persistence and the strength that you need. It’s really accepting it and receiving it as your own and not to be fearful of how much power you actually have.

Sam Believ (18:16)

That’s a good interpretation. Yeah. Thank you for that. ⁓ but yeah, let’s not make it a therapy session for me. ⁓ Let’s, but yeah, this so far, this conversation is really interesting to me. I’m like spending 50 % of time with goosebumps, which for me is a sign that something, something interesting is coming through. ⁓ let’s switch topic from Greece to, know, you’re, you’re being death duel and how you.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (18:23)

⁓ You ⁓

Sam Believ (18:46)

You know, most people avoid death in their life experiences. They don’t want to think about it, they don’t want to touch it, it’s ⁓ seen as something negative. Why do you not only embrace it, but you explore it and you help other people through that process? How did you become a death tool and why?

Maria Sophia Dimakos (19:08)

So my dad was mentally ill, as I mentioned before, and he was obsessed with death. His mother died when he was 16 months old, so he never really remembered her. And his father died in front of him when he was 12. And so my father always had a fixation on death. And as I was growing up, I remember I was 10 years old. That was my first funeral that I went to with my father.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (19:36)

And my father would take us to the funerals constantly and he was always talking about his own death. ⁓ And it’s so interesting now coming here, when I come to Greece, I think I’ve spoken about death in Greece to just relatives and friends every single day, if not multiple times a day. It’s a very acceptable conversation. It’s not demonized in any way. It’s not seen as taboo. It’s so refreshing to be able to just discuss death openly.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (20:04)

Because as you said, in the US, it’s more, it’s something that’s shrouded in fear. ⁓ And let’s not talk about it because if we don’t talk about it, it won’t happen somehow. Like people think that they could cheat death or they can escape death. And ⁓ here in Greece, that’s not, they don’t believe that. They really are ⁓ very close to it and have a level of understanding and openness that I haven’t experienced elsewhere.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (20:34)

And I think because of my beginnings as a child, constantly being in that realm of people dying around me, going to places where people who had died are celebrated, and then working within as my little kid self, seeing how grief is processed in families and in friend groups and communities. I think that is what really prepared me and catapulted me into

Maria Sophia Dimakos (21:02)

wanting to be a death doula. I ⁓ think the ⁓ biggest, transformative experience that was really like very clear, like you’re gonna do this, ⁓ is four days before my father died, I was in an ayahuasca ceremony and Madre Ayahuasca told me exactly how I was going to handle my father’s death. She explained like point by point, this is what time you’re gonna go to your father’s house. This is what you’re going to say.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (21:31)

this is what’s gonna happen. He’s not your father anymore. Like he’s gone. He’s going to die like within this week. Like she was very, ⁓ very, very specific. This is what the room is going to look like. This is how you’re going to center yourself. This is how you’re gonna speak to the caregivers. This is how you’re gonna speak to your mother. This is how you’re gonna speak to your father. ⁓ And now let’s grieve. So in that ceremony, I was able to start the grieving process even though my father was still alive.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (22:01)

He was gonna die in four days. But I started the grieving process ⁓ and the medicine said, this is the work that you’re going to do with others, but you need to start. This is your initiation. Your initiation is your father’s death. So give your father a good death and then you’ll be able and prepared to work with others. So I did exactly what was asked of me. And I remember like writing everything down once the ceremony was over.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (22:31)

And on the day that he died, the medicine came back to me. So it was four days later, ⁓ the ceremony ended on Sunday. On Thursday morning, the medicine comes to me and says, okay, call your mother, tell her you’ll be there at seven in the morning. You’re going to stay there the entire day. And I was like, what, I’m not going to go back to my house. I’m not going to do this. I’m not going to… She’s like, you’re staying there the whole entire day and you’re going to stay there for longer than that. But stay there.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (22:59)

ask your father what he needs, she instructed me. ⁓ And everything that I saw in my medicine journey and all the instructions I was given, everything came to pass exactly as it was given to me. ⁓ And once he actually died, I ⁓ remember just sitting there thinking, I ⁓ passed my initiation. This was my initiation. I’ve done it. I’ve completed this initiation. And not only that, but I felt a sense of pride.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (23:28)

Like I was able to do this in the way that wasn’t the highest good. And my father had a good death. And then I was like, okay, now it’s time for me to move forward and start to hone my skills and get more education ⁓ and train even more so that I could help others.

Sam Believ (23:48)

Wonderful and you mentioned good death, right? And there’s a story I’ve heard you say about ⁓ your husband’s best friend dying ⁓ of suicide and then kind of haunting you. Can you talk about that and why, know, what’s the difference of good death and not good death and how souls can get stuck?

Maria Sophia Dimakos (24:08)

I can’t get stuck. So a good death to me is a death that is conscious, meaning that it’s the death that you want, that you’ve decided, I ⁓ want to have all of my family and friends around me, or I don’t want anyone around me, I’m choosing this. I am consciously choosing my own death and how it’s going to be. And if we look at it from a macro perspective, everybody chooses everything that happens anyway. So. ⁓

Maria Sophia Dimakos (24:34)

But from the micro level, ⁓ you go down into the weeds of being a human, my ex -husband’s best friend, ⁓ he chose to take his life. He was ⁓ incredibly troubled. He was drinking alcohol heavily and he was also taking antidepressants with the alcohol, which of course is just not a good mix by any means. ⁓

Maria Sophia Dimakos (25:02)

He was very, very troubled and he had a girlfriend at the time and ⁓ the girlfriend contacted the authorities and told them that he had explosives and he had guns and that he was dangerous because they had gotten into a fight. So the police came up to his cabin. He was living in the woods. He was living pretty much in isolation at this point. He saw the police.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (25:28)

Maybe he got scared, maybe he had pre -planned it, but then he shot himself and died. ⁓

Maria Sophia Dimakos (25:36)

It was very shocking to me because I’ve had, I had very in -depth conversations with him about spirituality and death and life. ⁓ So the fact that he would do that was very shocking. But then he started showing up at my house in terms of being behind the closet doors at three and four in the morning and pounding on them. Like he was inside the actual closet door. He would move things in the house.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (26:05)

he would break light bulbs. ⁓ My ex -husband at the time was, he was not a person who was particularly spiritual. He was a skeptic. ⁓ And at one point he was shaving and in the mirror he saw his friend that had died right behind him. And every time that I would try to remove that particular spirit from the home with sage, with Palo Santo, whatever I was trying to do, ⁓

Maria Sophia Dimakos (26:33)

Invocations, calling in the light, all of the techniques that I know, it was though I was being choked, physically choked because that spirit didn’t want to leave. So was in in -between. It was very uneasy. It was very unhappy. ⁓ And I ⁓ was stuck in that. I felt like I was stuck in that because I couldn’t move him because my husband at the time kept calling him in. I ⁓ kept trying to push him out and be like, hey, you need a crossover. You can’t be here anymore.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (27:03)

But then my husband at the time kept calling him in. I wasn’t able to actually call him out to get him removed until 10 years later. I left the home like two years after that happened. left the home. it’s not like he followed me, but I did have one vision of him. I think it was last December where he came to me and he said, I need you to cross me over.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (27:31)

And I said, I can’t cross you over because you have contracts with my ex -husband and he’s not gonna let you go. I, because we’re so close to each other, I can’t help you, but I’ll find someone who will. So I went to a psychic medium and this other energy healer, they work as a team ⁓ and they were able to take that person and move and cross them over. They took them to this place that’s like a rehabilitation center, an ⁓ etheric rehabilitation center.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (28:00)

for people who are stuck in in between ⁓ and have contracts with people and it’s complicated. So they were able to actually cross him over. I was too close to him to be able to do it.

Sam Believ (28:13)

Interesting. ⁓ Yeah, that sounds very scary. ⁓ So some gifts are, some spiritual gifts are scarier than others. And this one is particularly scary, know, feeling that noticing that ⁓ my wife is very sensitive to any kind of presences and beings and also other people’s ⁓ energies. I’m not my gift is more in a

Sam Believ (28:41)

in the realm of like healing and physical healing, which is great. And I sleep calmly at night. I don’t feel anything. I don’t see anything. ⁓ So that’s great. ⁓ For someone, since ⁓ we talk about the topic of death, let’s say a ⁓ lot of people come to ayahuasca because they’re grieving a loss of a loved one. As a professional, what will be your recommendations for

Sam Believ (29:11)

like grieving better, what is the skill there? ⁓

Maria Sophia Dimakos (29:18)

Grieving is an art, I think, and grieving is a practice. And one of my teachers, Francis Weller, talks about the five gates of grief, how there is more than just the grief of a lost loved one. He wrote a book called The Wild Edge of Sorrow, and he believes that in ⁓ order for us to grieve, quote unquote, better, being around community and actually ritualizing,

Maria Sophia Dimakos (29:47)

the grief, like having grief rituals and grief ceremonies so that people can feel more contained ⁓ and they can feel supported within their grief, within their community and their family. So I think for me, it’s really important to actually feel grief and allow grief in and not to have all of these conditions on it. Grief should only last for a year or ⁓

Maria Sophia Dimakos (30:14)

⁓ this person wasn’t a blood related, you know, a blood relation. So you shouldn’t be sad ⁓ and you should just get through it. People have these very strange ideas about grief and limitations. ⁓ And grief is a season ⁓ in people’s lives and seasons last long. It’s not linear. Grief is not a a linear thing at all. ⁓

Maria Sophia Dimakos (30:41)

and it waxes and wanes. And I think when people go into ayahuasca ceremonies or mushroom ceremonies, because they want to release grief, what I’ve seen, if that’s the intention, I’ve seen people come to front and center all of the grief, just getting a ⁓ tidal wave of grief, because the medicine, like, it’s not gonna say, ⁓ you want to get rid of this grief? Okay, let’s get rid of it. No, it’s be like, no, we’re gonna feel it all now, right now. We’re gonna look at all of it.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (31:09)

and you’re gonna feel all of it and you’re gonna feel all the depths of it. And so I think the first step is really to allow yourself to grieve in whatever way it looks like for you and not to judge yourself about what grief looks like. The more you hold it in and try to keep it in the lanes of what society thinks is, as long as you’re not hurting people, as long as you’re not physically hurting anybody or yourself,

Maria Sophia Dimakos (31:36)

then expressing your grief and whatever makes sense to you and allowing that to be is the first step. So if it means dancing, if grief, if your expression of grief is ecstatic dance for three days, ⁓ or if it means singing, ⁓ or if it means just staying in your bed in the fetal position in the darkness for a ⁓ couple of days, like whatever it means to you, or there’s times where

Maria Sophia Dimakos (32:05)

You know, you feel like you’re okay and then you need to go back into your bed and then you need it, you know, whatever it looks like to you to allow that expression to fully blossom and not to ⁓ stifle it because you feel like you’re an inconvenience to others.

Sam Believ (32:19)

I think I think that’s a very valuable ⁓ advice for anyone who is grieving. ⁓ I know your medicine of choice is ayahuasca and ayahuasca is known as one of those medicines that ⁓ shows you death and helps you ⁓ rehearse that process and kind of takes away some of the fear of dying.

Sam Believ (32:45)

⁓ Can you talk to us about that? know, how, how I was guys helping you being a death do alum. What are the lessons maybe you’ve had from iOS camp?

Maria Sophia Dimakos (32:56)

I remember the first time I died during an ayahuasca ceremony. I died and it felt really comfortable. was like, this is great. This feels nice. I think I’ll stay here forever. I ⁓ was in a void. It just was like darkness in a void and it felt so comfortable. So like the actual death itself for me in that ceremony wasn’t the hard part. The hard part happened when the medicine came and said, okay, now you need to be reborn. And I was like, I don’t want to.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (33:26)

So I’m arguing, I’m arguing and trying to negotiate with ⁓ this deity, which to me, Ayahuasca is this deity, this female feminine deity. I’m arguing with her, telling her that I don’t want to be a human again and this place that I’m in is much easier and I don’t want to come back. And she’s like, you have to come back. You can’t stay here. There’s no way.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (33:51)

And so I’m arguing, so that could have happened for probably an hour, you know, into two hours. But then she’s like, no, no, no, you’re going to be reborn right now. And not only are you going to be reborn, but also you have to consent to it and accept it with happiness and joy in your heart. And I was like, are you kidding me? I don’t want to, I don’t want to leave this place. This place is great. Why would I want to go back into the messiness of being a human being? This is, you’re not giving me a lot of options here. And she’s like, no, you’re gonna, you’re gonna be reborn, but you have to consent.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (34:20)

until you consent, you’re gonna be in this limbo. So I consented and ⁓ I remember opening my eyes and seeing a birth canal, like with veins and blood and flesh, like seeing an actual birth canal and then feeling like a rush of wind coming towards me. And I remember a ⁓ lot of times in ayahuasca ceremonies, there’s a lot of mucus and like,

Maria Sophia Dimakos (34:45)

blowing of noses and all of that. But I remember I was like, why is there so much mucus coming out of me? ⁓ And the medicine saying it’s not mucus, it’s amniotic fluid because you’re in a womb and you’re going to be reborn right now. I was like, no. Okay. And I remember just going through that portal of being reborn and feeling the wind on my face coming through to the other side. And it was very destabilizing as an experience.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (35:13)

because again, I remembered where I was before and how easy it was to be there. So for me, it’s not so much the dying part that I have the issue with is the coming back part. The coming back part is I think part of my processing of, ⁓ consenting to come back into a human body, into a human form over and over again, and ⁓ being better every time that you come back.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (35:41)

taking the wisdom that you’ve learned from the other side and ⁓ the pain of being reborn, but using that pain and that discomfort for good. And so whenever I worked with clients, especially if I worked with clients with 5Meo DMT, ⁓

Maria Sophia Dimakos (36:00)

hands down they all say that, death. They get to the death place and they’re like, not so bad. wait, but now I have to come back? It’s the coming back part that people are like, I don’t want to do this. This is too hard. Being a human is challenging.

Sam Believ (36:13)

you

Sam Believ (36:17)

⁓ So then a question to you from that knowledge you collected from plant medicines and also your experience around that. ⁓ First, what happens after that and is there ⁓ hell or heaven, know, like ⁓ this Christian view of it?

Maria Sophia Dimakos (36:37)

can speak to my own experience. That’s the lens I come through. So people can take ⁓ it for what it’s worth. If it resonates with them, fantastic. If it doesn’t, please keep it to the side. ⁓ For me, I do not believe in heaven and hell. I believe that we are currently living in the heaven or hell that we create on this planet. ⁓ And heaven and hell are not a place in my estimation. After we die,

Maria Sophia Dimakos (37:06)

I believe that I go back to eternal source. People call it God or oneness, the all. I go back to that place and then I ⁓ spend time in oneness, whatever time means because time is such an illusion. And then at some point ⁓ I go to source and I ask source what planet needs the most help and how can I help them?

Maria Sophia Dimakos (37:36)

And then I get my assignment to go wherever I’m supposed to go to help. And everything is told to me, everything is explained, what will happen to me when I come to earth or another planet or wherever I go. ⁓ And I ⁓ consent to come back to earth, let’s say for example, and I ask, know, I consent to come back here. I also am able to select the gifts that I bring with me to help with the challenges that I will face as a human being, let’s say.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (38:06)

And then once I consent, I incarnate into a human body and I’m here for however many years I live and the cycle keeps on going.

Sam Believ (38:18)

And what is the purpose of this? Is that like your soul coming over to learn some lessons or how do you view that?

Maria Sophia Dimakos (38:28)

I that it is about learning and it is about relationships, being in relationship with others to know yourself. A lot of times it’s helpful to be with another. That’s where there’s synergy. That’s where there’s conflict. And through conflict and ⁓ cohesion, you can learn a lot of things about yourself. And so I ⁓ think it’s just a matter of wanting to learn and expand because I

Maria Sophia Dimakos (38:57)

this universe and God or source, I think it’s just such a generative creative being. It just wants to create all the time and learn and expand and just keep on going into infinity. It doesn’t stagnate. It just keeps on bringing more. It’s so abundant in that. So to learn more things in depth, ⁓ have fun, to ⁓ have interesting experiences.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (39:24)

⁓ I would imagine just being in the oneness and being in this stagnant place would get really boring after a while. You want some novelty. So Earth is a great place if you want novelty. There’s lots of novel experiences here. So I think ⁓ we come here to learn, we come here to expand, we come here to bring more love to the world, love and joy. And yeah, ⁓ I think that’s the whole point. Being creative, bringing more.

Sam Believ (39:54)

⁓ What do you think ancient Greeks said? If you die before you die, you don’t die when you die.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (40:04)

they said that because they knew that if you were to confront that fear of death, that you would live more. I ⁓ think there are some people who are so frightened of death that they don’t live. They just live in a constant state of fear and panic, ⁓ paralyzed, hoping that death comes, but they’re not there when it happens.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (40:32)

which I think it’s a Woody Allen quote, I’m not afraid of death, but I don’t want to be there when it happens. So I think there’s people who don’t live because they’re in fear of death. And I think that quote is about living like living like death is just another, it’s just another experience. And if you see it that way, rather than with fear, you come to death very empty. You don’t come with regret because at the end of life, people share their regrets. That’s the number one thing that they talk about.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (41:01)

all the regrets they have about what they didn’t do, what they didn’t say within their life. So I think that quote has to do with like living your life without that fear of death, because you know, you’re, you’re going to come in some other form. It’s not the end of anything. It’s just a transition. It’s just an initiation into something else.

Sam Believ (41:23)

You kind of touched upon my, what was going to be my next question, but ⁓ you describe ⁓ the process people go to when they’re, you know, they’re left six months to live and they need to work with all their regrets and unsaid words. So my question was, ⁓ can somebody go through that process right now before they even are ever, you know, knowing that they’re dying and basically just, ⁓ would that affect their, would it make their life better?

Maria Sophia Dimakos (41:55)

had to go through that process within my training and I ⁓ got to work with someone else who was not in a terminal space within my practicum. I worked with several people who were not in that terminal space going through that process. And I think that you can do the process of asking about regrets in each of the spheres of your life at any time. And I think it does make you realize the value that your life has.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (42:24)

And it also clarifies how you are living your life and how you’re not living your life. If you have many regrets about relationships with ⁓ parents or siblings ⁓ and they’re really bothering you and they’re holding you back, if you’re in a non -terminal space and you’re able to do some sort of clearing work or reconciliation work while everyone is still alive, I ⁓ think it definitely has a positive impact in your life.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (42:52)

I think we should do life reviews every year, like during New Year’s rather than these big New Year’s Eve parties. Let’s have life review parties where we figure out what happened during this year, what are the regrets of this year and how we can bring something new into the new year where those regrets don’t exist. So I think life reviews with all the spheres of your life are a great tool to have even, you know, not in the terminal space.

Sam Believ (43:21)

Yeah, seems to make a lot of sense to just like what can make you more conscious of life than death and like just analyzing yourself and kind of there’s this good way of living life is like asking yourself ⁓ what are people gonna tell about you on your deathbed and stuff like that. It does, mean, I understand what you’re saying about death as being a relief and I think I have experienced that myself and I’ve heard it from like hundreds of

Sam Believ (43:50)

⁓ Patience they come through through our doors ⁓ But still you know, there’s like yeah, there’s this hesitancy and resistance to think about it because like I think yeah, ⁓ we’re souls that come here to learn lessons and we’re part of God ⁓ the God that’s so bored and he like creates this little It’s like watching a telenovela for God. He just like ⁓ parts and like role plays ⁓ to entertain himself or herself or itself or whatever

Maria Sophia Dimakos (44:09)

⁓ People. ⁓

Sam Believ (44:19)

But I think those little parts of those souls, their program not to want to die because obviously then how are going to play this game of life if you die early? Yeah, this is a fascinating topic and ⁓ there are no definitive answers, but I know that for me personally, after I started working with ⁓ plant medicines, my outlook on death and on life completely changed. you know, ⁓ I consider myself a spiritual person now.

Sam Believ (44:48)

⁓ all thanks to ayahuasca. ⁓ And I think it’s a better way of living life. Let’s say that’s not true. Let’s say you and me are mistaken and we’re mistaken. There’s something else. But is it better to live your life fearing that you’re going to die and then you’re going to rot and there’s no meaning to it or just, yeah, there’s a meaning to all of it. I think it’s just a better and more helpful belief system.

Sam Believ (45:18)

to adopt. ⁓

Maria Sophia Dimakos (45:20)

Yeah, I agree with you. And I think I also think in my perspective, what’s really important and what has been foundational and life changing within my own medicine work has been the medicine showing me my divine nature. But yes, there’s this human and I have a name and I come from somewhere and I have a family and all these things. Yeah, sure. I have this. This is true. It’s temporary. But the thing that also exists is this very

Maria Sophia Dimakos (45:50)

infinite thing, a ⁓ spirit which has never been born, has never died. And I can tap into that presence whenever I want to. ⁓ And I think as human beings, we forgot that that exists. ⁓ And I think it makes us the most human when we realize that we are divine beings. We actually have the spark of divinity within us ⁓ and we’re infinite.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (46:19)

Just the shell goes away, but the infinite spirit never goes away. So I think if you were to treat everyone as you walk through life as a divine human being and you look at them as like this person is an infinite being, which is pure love, I think we would be treating people much, differently versus let me look at this person just in a human scope, the physical quote unquote matter that they are.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (46:47)

and all of the personality and character and an ego that’s involved in it, rather than giving it more layers of this person’s also an infinite divine being, just like I am. We’re part of the same exact soup, or we’re part of the same divine soup that exists. I think ⁓ people would treat each other more humanely, rather than… ⁓

Maria Sophia Dimakos (47:13)

Separating I think the biggest lie truly the biggest lie that’s ever been sold to humanity is that we’re all separate We’re all unique. Yes as human beings physical human beings were all different. However, we’re not separate It’s one being that’s on this planet, it’s not all these separate Entities it’s just one field one giant field, but we can’t see that because we’re so ⁓ entrenched in

Maria Sophia Dimakos (47:38)

other programming and thinking that churches and institutions have brought to us in order to control and manipulate people. And so if we were all to see that we’re unified and that we were divine spirits, then governments would have a really hard time controlling humanity. The church would have a really hard time selling hell ⁓ and selling sin and selling evil to humanity if we all

Maria Sophia Dimakos (48:06)

realize how unified we actually are and how there is goodness. I believe that ⁓ human beings at our spirits at the core are good, that we have goodness and light and love within each of us. Some people tap into it more than others and others don’t even believe it exists and that’s fine. But I don’t choose to see it that way. Just how you were saying, what if we’re wrong? If we’re wrong, we’re wrong. Like I’m okay with being wrong.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (48:36)

But this is how I choose to live my life.

Sam Believ (48:36)

Mm

Sam Believ (48:39)

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and ⁓ But I can also think of some people where it’s really hard for me to see any any spirit in them ⁓ You know how how far removed they are from from their spirit and how I don’t know what is it society or something that Made us all so disconnected and distracted and ⁓ I mean, this is why i’m a big fan of ayahuasca for me personally. It kind of shook me back to ⁓

Sam Believ (49:08)

thinking in different ways and changed my life on so many different levels. So I believe that there’s a lot of people that ⁓ maybe otherwise will never get there. ⁓ Like they’re there or like, you ⁓ know, me myself, few years ago, I was, I was one of those people like so far removed from any, from my own spirit that it’s only, it will only take something as strong as ayahuasca to like beat me out of it and just bring me to different ways of thinking.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (49:36)

you

Sam Believ (49:37)

And it does it sometimes. ⁓ Sometimes it’s really, really strong and really cruel. And this ⁓ is kind of my mission, I guess. If my soul has a mission, that probably it’s about that, know, spreading awareness of this plant medicine and how it can change your way of looking at things. that’s exciting to think about it this way instead of just like, you know, superficial understandings of it.

Sam Believ (50:07)

Yeah, ⁓ I know you also facilitate plant medicine’s journey, ⁓ my question to you as a fellow facilitator is what are your favorite ways to help people integrate ⁓ and just generally ⁓ any advice ⁓ to facilitators out there?

Maria Sophia Dimakos (50:35)

recently in the last year have fallen in love with dietas, like truly madly in love with dietas. feel like they are the missing piece for me when it comes to communing with the plant world and the mushroom kingdom. And more so in terms of integration, I would say more ⁓ on the preparation side.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (50:58)

of working with plants. Say there’s people who are very leery and scared of working with psychedelics, which I understand, but something like a dieta is far more accessible to them. ⁓ And even though they diet something that’s not a psychedelic plant, they are able to have a psychedelic altered state of consciousness experience through a dieta. So say if they diet boba and sanna, or they diet rose, ⁓ or they diet blue water lily.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (51:27)

So these things are not psychedelic ⁓ on their face, but once you start to diet that plant and commune with that spirit and become partners with that spirit, you have psychedelic experiences. Your state of consciousness, your state of being is altered. ⁓ You go into a different dimension altogether. So I cannot speak ⁓ positively enough about having dietas.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (51:55)

whether they’re in the jungle and they’re isolated dietas or urban dietas and some people can’t, let’s say go into the jungle for two weeks and diet Boba and Sana, they can’t do it. I understand that. And I’m not saying that people should start that way either. I ⁓ think meeting people where they are, we’re in their lives. And if you could do a one week diet with Rose, fantastic. Like an urban or a Swabian diet, that’s great. Start there so that people get used to the idea

Maria Sophia Dimakos (52:26)

and notion of there are other beings that are implants, these are spirits, you can commune with them, you can have a relationship with them, because then it makes it much easier down the road once they’ve had a few dietas and they’ve received healing ⁓ or insight and wisdom or direction in their lives through these dietas for them to say, okay, I have three dietas that I’ve done and now I think like psychedelics, now I feel more comfortable and I can work.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (52:55)

within psychedelics, can maybe go into an ayahuasca ceremony ⁓ and speak with mother ayahuasca. I’m not ⁓ so foreign to it. It’s not an alien spirit. It’s an actual plant spirit and I’ve communed with other plant spirits. So I think it’s a way to gently guide people who maybe have reservations about psychedelic experiences to get them to a place where they feel a little more grounded and comfortable so that they can gain.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (53:22)

all of the lessons they need to gain in the healing from ayahuasca ceremonies. ⁓ then integration is much more profound. And also it’s not as jarring. They’re able to have roots into what they’re doing because I ⁓ have seen people go through massive transformations within ceremonies. And then within two weeks, it’s all disappeared. And I’m sure you’ve seen that too, Sam, all the time.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (53:50)

So I think gently bringing people in and step by step, low and slow, starting with non -psychedelic plants or say if they have some experience, even using psychedelic plants within dietas and then putting them into a much more intense container where they have a ceremony and then going into the integration phase. So I think it’s more so not just integration, but how we bring people into the plant medicine world.

Sam Believ (54:20)

Thank you. That’s a great explanation. And ⁓ funny enough in Colombia, in Colombia now Oscar tradition, the others are not that common. What they what they work with a lot here is purges, which I guess is similar, but more faster and intense way ⁓ to do those things. But I’m interested about it. And it’s like funny enough, there’s a lot of plants, even like garden plants that grow here that are psychedelic in nature. And a lot of them have, you know, spirits and you can kind of like

Maria Sophia Dimakos (54:35)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (54:50)

It’s almost after ⁓ working with the Alaska, it’s almost kind of becomes obvious. He’s some plans to just have kind of more of a appeal and yeah, I’m very curious about it myself as well. I think I will explore that topic to see if I can learn something there. So Maria, thank you so much ⁓ for this episode. I think we’re getting close to an hour now. So ⁓ before we…

Sam Believ (55:19)

Finnish, is there anything else you want to say to the audience or maybe something we haven’t touched upon but you would like to?

Maria Sophia Dimakos (55:28)

No, just for people to open their hearts.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (55:34)

and not ⁓ believe everything they’ve been taught.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (55:41)

There’s much more than what we’ve been shown. I could say in the Western world, there’s much more out there available to people and not to believe the imagined disabilities and limitations that have been placed upon you and to open your heart to other possibilities. Open your heart to yourself first ⁓ and connect with that divine spirit that I was talking about because there is everything you need you have. Every single thing that you need you have inside. It’s just a matter.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (56:11)

It’s not a matter of learning, it’s really a matter of locating, of locating your own internal wisdom and knowledge and to do that by, it’s opening your heart to yourself.

Sam Believ (56:23)

Yeah, we need to do a lot of learning, we also need to do a lot of unlearning. And that’s, that’s important right now because there’s so much information that is not true. So ⁓ Maria, where can people find more about your, maybe ⁓ get your services as a death tool or facilitator or coach.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (56:29)

Yes.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (56:44)

Yeah, I have a website, TheMariaSofia, and then I’m also saying same name on Instagram, TheMariaSofia. And then I also have a podcast of my own called Suddenly Spiritual. ⁓ And it ⁓ is more so geared towards people who are very new to the spiritual path or maybe they’re kind of midway point. ⁓ And it’s helping people to gather and build self -awareness.

Maria Sophia Dimakos (57:13)

So they’re not being programmed or moved in ways that are not the best for them. So it’s more of an educational podcast. Again, it’s called Suddenly Spiritual. You can find it pretty much everywhere. And yeah, and the Maria Sofia.

Sam Believ (57:28)

Thank you, Maria was a lot of fun. I’ve learned a lot from this episode and remembered a lot So thank you for coming on and thank you for sharing

Maria Sophia Dimakos (57:37)

Yeah, thank you so much for having me, Sam. I really appreciate you and all the work that you’re doing.

Sam Believ (57:43)

Thank you ⁓ guys, ⁓ you’ve been listening to Ayahuasca podcast and thank you for listening and I’ll see you in the next episode.

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of LaWayra) has a conversation with Jesse Harless, a thought leader in addiction recovery and mental health.

Jesse shares his inspiring journey of overcoming addiction and how he now empowers others as a coach, facilitator, and author of Smash Your Comfort Zone with Cold Showers.

We touch upon topics such as:

Jesse’s personal journey with addiction and recovery (01:25)

Overcoming trauma through self-awareness (06:10)

Role of psychedelics in addiction recovery (08:28)

Jesse’s experience with Ayahuasca (12:45)

Cold therapy and its benefits for mental health (32:04)

Addiction as a coping mechanism (38:58)

The F.E.A.R.S. model for recovery (44:04)

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats, go to LaWayra.

Find more about Jesse Harless at jessieharless.com.

Transcript

Jesse Harless: You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast.com. I did all the work I could for 15 years to address the shadow. And when I started to get into psychedelic cys therapy, it blew the door open to shadows. I could not access these shadows, I could not access. And if you can access these shadows without medicine.

Let me know. When I started to get into medicines, including ayahuasca, I started to see parts of myself I could not access. So I just wanna share that for me and my story, I started to access really deep parts of myself that, 15 years of therapy. All the cold therapy, I was doing all the practices.

I was doing all the stuff where I was in contemplation for hours at a time, days at a time. I couldn’t see what I couldn’t see until I started to utilize psychedelics and psychedelic assisted therapy.

Sam Believ: This episode of Ayahuasca podcast, I interview Jesse Harless. We talk about Jesse’s personal recovery story from addiction. Talk about psychedelics and addiction recovery in general. Talk about the role of fear in addiction, importance of shadow work, addiction as a coping mechanism, and a model called FEA Rs, or fierce.

It’s a very interesting episode. I’m sure you will enjoy it. This episode is sponsored by LoRa Ayahuasca Retreat. At Laira, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity. Laira, connect, heal,

Jesse Harless: grow.

Sam Believ: Guys,

Jesse Harless: I’m looking forward to hosting you.

Sam Believ: Welcome to Ayahuasca podcast, as always, with you to host Sam.

Today I’m interviewing Jesse Harless. Jesse’s a thought leader in addiction recovery and mental health. Jesse has an incredible personal story of transformation. Overcoming addiction and using his experiences to empower others. He’s the author of Smash Your Comfort Zone with cold showers, and if not you, then who.

He shares their practical steps for healing from trauma and living a life of purpose As a coach and facilitator, Jesse’s work focuses on elevating individuals and organizations in recovery. Pushing them to reach their fullest potential. So let’s dive in. Jesse,

Jesse Harless: welcome to the show, Sam, it’s an honor to be here.

I’m glad we’re connecting for the second time. You were on my podcast a couple days ago it’s a pleasure, brother.

Sam Believ: Yeah, thank you, Jesse. I think there is there’s a very good connection between the topic of addictions and work with plant medicines. I think it’s, it can be one of those matches made in heaven.

So the fact that I spoke on your podcast about medicine, and now you can speak on my podcast about the addiction because we have lots of stories of people coming to deal with the addiction, and addiction is running rampant now in the western world. So tell us a little bit about your own story with addiction and, recovery.

Jesse Harless: Yeah. It’s a story that I don’t often tell often anymore. I used to tell it all the time and Al Cox’s anonymous, I used to tell it all the time, getting asked to speak on commitments and really talk a lot about what happened and then what it’s like now. So it’s been a while since I talked about it, but the short version.

Is, it’s pretty classic, three years old. My dad leaves, never comes back. I fall into, single, my mom’s a single mom with three boys, so there’s all kinds of stressors, money stressors, housing stressors, all kinds of things that are happening, which are being imbibed in my body as trauma.

And that eventually, I try to numb out with all different types of behaviors, pornography at 11 years old, internet pornography and having computer games got massively indicted into computer games, which now today you might become a professional if you do that, but when I was doing that, it was definitely to escape and there was definitely some positives about that as well.

And so high school, I didn’t use substances, but I had addiction to my trauma and my stories and my depression. I couldn’t get outta my own way, even if people told me I’m a great person, I’m loved, I couldn’t hear it, so I ended up just barely graduating high school, had an intervention senior year ’cause I was late so many times.

Just dropped out of my life and. So I went to college and that’s where I got to get into substances. So I started drinking alcohol. I took some psychedelics with alcohol and with a whole bunch of other things and, had my first taste of psilocybin and how that can just smash you right up in the right up in your face when you’re not doing the right thing.

And it shows you like what you’re doing and. Those are some big experiences. At 18, I flunked outta college. I got arrested. All these things happened, and from there I, I had this moment where my father had passed away. We had no relationship, but when he passed away, that was my excuse to dive into cocaine.

And once I did that, I found heroin and 20 years old, I’m, shooting heroin. I’m sorting cocaine and I’m down this path where. Just like it was just this numbing out of reality. Addiction was my solution to the pain, and eventually it stopped abruptly. I moved to Florida to escape my addiction. They call that the geographical cure, but it just, I could only stop for so long.

The hard drugs came back to them and got arrested and that arrest was a big one. And that arrest. That, that, that’s the one that woke me up. That was the one that was like, Hey, you’re gonna go to federal prison for seven years? And it was like, oh, I gotta stop waking up. What’s happening? What are my choices?

And I started to surround myself with mentors, fellowship, everything, the Bible, anything I could to I studied scripture like. Like it was a medicine. Like I memorized scripture, like it was a medicine. I used affirmations every single day ’cause my anxiety and panic attacks were so severe at 22.

And so that began my recovery journey.

Sam Believ: Thank you, Jesse. Thank you for sharing your story. First of all, congratulations ’cause not only you were able to overcome the addiction yourself, but also now obviously you’re helping others and, I like how you started your share with the reason, which was your pain.

The trauma of the childhood and I really like Gabor mate’s word and, Gabor is my dream to have him on the podcast, but maybe one day I know he’s also a big proponent of ayahuasca and what he says is the look for the substance, look for the pain. And you was able to identify.

That pain very early. Yeah, now not only you’re doing pretty well yourself. You look great. I never met your addicted version, but you look healthy and vibrant, very sharp and stuff like that. In in your work now with helping others what do you do, for example, for people who are listening to this episode and they’re addicted?

What would you tell them?

Jesse Harless: It’s very different than what I would’ve told them at 22. Now at 41, I would say, if someone is addicted, it’s, we wanna look at what is it providing relief from? What is it providing as a solution to, and it could be many things. It could be trauma, it could be complex trauma.

Could be PTSD, it could be many things. And I think sometimes it’s even financial hardship. There’s so many reasons for why someone’s using a substance or a behavior to numb out. So I would say the first thing is to ask yourself, what is this thing? What is this providing relief from? What am I getting relief from by acting out in this way, whether it’s pornography or sexual addiction?

Or maybe it’s you’re addicted to alcohol. You know what is this providing relief from? And as we get closer and closer to the core, we find fear. And that as we find the fear, we find the real truth of the root of what is this relieving me from? And so start with those questions and then you can start to ask yourself, what has worked for me in the past?

To find relief in a more positive way. How can I find relief? And for some people, they’ve already been through the rodeo, they’ve been to treatment, they’ve been to meetings, they’ve been to church, they’ve been to done, they’ve done all these things and they feel hopeless. So it’s really meeting someone where they’re at in that process.

So the answer is not universal it’s different for every person. But I would say that first step of asking yourself, what am I numbing out? Why, what am I numbing out? What is the feelings, the emotions? What is the reason for this? And start there

Sam Believ: when you talk about looking for that root cause that fear, that internal emotion.

I can’t help but think, in, in obviously in working with thousands of people working with us and sometimes it, whether you’re looking for it or not, it just shows it right. To you. It happens over and over again when people are just presented with with their root issue. What are your thoughts on psychedelics and maybe your own experiences, and do you see a potential there for helping addicted people?

Jesse Harless: That’s a great question. It took 15 years of being an abstinent recovery for me to find psychedelics and utilize them in a therapeutic manner. So I didn’t just come in day one, week one, year one, 15 years into it after doing 10 years of meditation, all kinds of different religious practices, all kinds of different recovery programs.

I came in and found psychedelics. So I think that number one is do your research. Do your research first. Do research. Make sure that this is the choice that you wanna make. Listen to podcasts like the Ayahuasca podcast. Listen to my podcast, listen to other podcasts. Get into the world in the space and make sure that this is the right choice.

Once you have that, have made that decision, then it’s what medicine, all the medicines are different. They’re, none of them are the same. So many of ’em are illegal. If you’re gonna wanna do ayahuasca, you want to come and see Sam in Columbia Laira, right? Because it’s legal there.

They’ve been doing it for years. They’re experts. They know exactly what to do, and they’ve treated many cases of addiction. But if you’re here in the, if you’re I’m not here, I’m in the Costa Rica now, but if you’re in the United States. Ayahuasca is not legal. So what are the legal options?

Ketamine is a legal option there. So do your research on ketamine. Look at the studies. What am I struggling with? Where has ketamine been beneficial for this addiction? I’m facing, and maybe there’s a deeper root cause maybe there’s some type of diagnosis you have. Maybe bipolar or borderline personality disorder.

Make sure that you’re. You’re understanding that here’s what can happen with the potential of utilizing these psychedelic therapies. So do deep research first. And today we have so many free resources to get that information, especially podcasts like this. Do your research first and then understand that.

And then reach out to people. Reach out to you. Reach out to me. Reach out to people who have experience extensively in different types of medicines. And for me, I’ve utilized. I’ve met Ayahuasca before. I’ve met peyote before, but I’ve only done those each one time. So I’m not someone who you’d wanna come to.

You wanna go to Sam to ask that question, but if you’re talking about Ketamine assisted therapy, I’ve utilized that many times. So that’s something I can speak to more. I’ve also used other therapies, other psychedelic therapies as well. So go to someone, read books, find the information that you’re looking for, do the research just like you would with anything else, unless you’re forced into something, do the research first.

Sam Believ: They could just see that’s very ground, very reasonable reply from you regarding the topic you said to ask Sam. From my perspective, what I’ve seen so far is. A lot of people get get presented with that core issue that they’re looking for. ’cause ayahuasca is, it’s like straight to business.

You might have an intention about something else, and if there’s something more present, they’ll be like no, let’s go, let’s look here. You gotta look here. And we’ve seen a lot of good results with people overcoming weed addiction alcohol, a lot of that. And sometimes surprisingly people come for something else. Let’s say they come to treat depression and then all of a sudden as a side effect, they realize they no longer want to drink because in their process, somehow they addressed that core pain that you’re talking about. But of course, as you say, you gotta be careful. ’cause I ask if you’re.

If you’re psychotic, if you have history of schizophrenia, if you’re taking antidepressants, you cannot just jump in it immediately. You need to prepare yourself, learn, read, and this is it’s very important that you mentioned that, but in your own work, you said you have worked with the oscopy for it.

Tell us a little bit about yourself. How was that experience? Did it show you maybe. More of the inner pain that you were not aware of, or what was your intention? What was the outcome?

Jesse Harless: It’s gonna get esoteric if I talk about these things because yeah. To just break down that first experience, I was in the beautiful land of Costa Rica just like I am today.

And I vetted this place. I had friends who were with me who were going to take this experience very seriously. We were gonna do it in a group ceremony. And so it was outside too. It was a very interesting experience. So when I drank the first cup, you’re offered more than one cup if you choose.

And I chose on the first cup to go for a large dose. And I don’t recommend that for everyone. But I did that. And, I would say within 30 minutes I was in an experience that was extremely challenging. There was. As fast as humanly possible, the visions of my childhood and the pain of my childhood were coming at me in speeds that I could not keep up with, and it became so intense that I literally.

My body fluids released. I was it was so intense. It was like this, it was like something was blocked so deep that was being loosened and being let go of, which was this almost energetic cord that was there from the from around the age 10, where I think, where I believe the story that got embedded into my DNA started of this.

This wounding of feeling broken and not good enough and never having enough. I don’t, that’s the best way I could describe it. And that first cup just lambasted, it, blasted into that I would call trauma narrative. And it lasted, it felt like a lifetime, but once it started to, once it started to clear.

I started to have this conversation, dialogue with what I can only describe as grandmother. And I was like, Hey I’m not gonna drink anymore of this ayahuasca, because that was too too intense. And this soft, gentlest, kindness love voice I’ve ever heard was like, really? It was like so common.

It was, and then it convinced me. That I should go for another cup even after that extremely intense experience. And not everyone has that. The people around me, I knew their experience. They didn’t have that experience in the first cup, but I had that in the first cup and I went up, I got the second cup, did the same dose, sat down.

And I was definitely expecting another intense experience and that’s what started, it started to come back at the same intensity. But this time I had some type of choice that I didn’t have the first time where I said, thank you for showing me all of this, what’s next? And it completely passed.

And then I went into this experience of what I can only call this white light coming into the top of my. My crown chakra blasting through my root chakra, like this white light. And the best way I could describe it is I was thrown into an ancient Egypt time where I had this light blasting through me and I started to see all these things.

From things I’ve studied and watched, and maybe it was a past life, I don’t know, but I just started to experience this like Christlike light coming through and that was the second cup. And then I started to, open my eyes and I could see the grids in the sky. I could see things that I really could never see in my normal perception.

The second cup was this really confirming experience of what could be beyond. This lifetime. And I went on to, because I didn’t get I, I felt like I was going to, throw up many times, but I never did. And then on that second cup, I had a conversation with, let’s say grandmother again, ayahuasca.

And I said, if I drink another cup, I’m definitely going to, I’m definitely gonna throw up. And that’s what happened. I drank the third cup and I threw it up. But it was glorious. It was like I was throwing up all that trauma from the first cup. It was like I was throwing up all the stuff that. It never served me in my past.

So it’s, it was a really cathartic experience which also made me a little sad. So I looked at the shaman and the shaman gave me the little drink, another cup, and then I went for the fourth cup. And and that was another beautiful experience. That wasn’t like the first, it was really just another, let’s just say ride of of this knowledge beyond.

What we can perceive in our normal perception.

Sam Believ: Very interesting. Sounds like a very eventful experience. It is interesting you mentioned ancient Egypt because my very first Ayahuasca experience and I only had one cup, just one cup. There was no more needed. I don’t think I would be able to take another one.

But he was he was, it was a lot about, feeling joy and it’s almost, it almost felt like I was repressing joy and it all came out. It was very joyful experience. And then ancient Egypt, everything about Egypt, pyramids, shapes, stars. I was, it was a very like Egypt basic experience. I’ve never had one since, but I occasionally, obviously we have word circles and 50 to 70 people every month come through our doors.

I, I, since then. Notice that some people have this very, like Egyptian experiences. I don’t know what it means. My message was that if I go to Egypt, I will receive a gift and obviously then COVID started, so I never went. So I still don’t know, but yeah, I don’t know. Do you know anything or have you made any sense of what is that about Egypt that came up and why?

Jesse Harless: I think it’s a really fascinating timeline that we still don’t know much about. So I think you look at the stories that came outta ancient Egypt and they’re very similar to stories that got repeated later on, even through the Bible. So you see these stories and narratives that were 5,000 or more years old that had already happened and then replayed again in, in current religious texts.

So I think there’s like a repeat of what had happened in the past. Again and again through these different, whatever you want to call them, gods or and experiences. So I think that could have been just a timeline that, how did we, how did the pyramid get built? Can anyone tell me? So I think there’s, there was technologies and there was information and there was libraries and all kinds of things that.

Were available to us. That got lost of course. And I think we’re tapping into some of that ancient, as we clear where our own ego here, we clear where our own trauma of this lifetime, we start to see through the veil that, wow, there’s more information here than what we can understand. And fortunately, they left pyramids for us to be having archeology for proof.

So it’s very interesting.

Sam Believ: Yeah, the ancient megalithic structure is another point of interest of mine. Like I’ve been to a few here in South America and it’s just as an engineer myself, I just look at them and I’m like, I don’t know. How the hell did they manage to move stones that big and put them so precisely to each other?

They, I don’t know what they did and how they did it, but they were definitely very advanced. And interestingly enough, the only other Egyptian related experience IIII, I remembered was last month in one of the ceremonies I was presented by an Egyptian god, it’s like a human figure with the crocodile head.

I’ve never seen him or read about him. I didn’t even know what the God’s name was, but it was teaching me things as like a lecture. And interestingly enough, when I then went on Wikipedia and I. Figure out what kind of God it was and what his name was and what it’s supposed to represent.

It was really precise. So they proved that this mystical stuff that we see it is it’s not just in our ads. There’s definitely something beyond our understanding. And actually, yeah. That’s a topic, that’s a topic for another conversation, but you had this Ayahuasca experience and.

I know you also worked with Bufo, right? I believe you even have some training. Why this medicine? And how was the training? What did you learn?

Jesse Harless: Yeah, so after that experience at Ayahuasca and then a day later we met peyote, I went on to not do medicine for a little while.

Those are really big experiences I wanted to integrate and I was working with a psychedelic integration coach and I was really taking a lot of time. To sit and understand what happened and what I wanna do next. And what came to me was this opportunity to do MDMA assisted therapy. And I did that and when I was there.

There was there was a circle that was offered the next day, which was for five M-E-O-D-M-T, also known as ol. And this was with the synthetic molecule, also known as Jaguar. So there’s the ol various toad, which is directly from the toad and it’s dried the venom. And then there’s this synthetic version, which is known as Jaguar, and they were serving Jaguar.

And I watched these men receive this medicine one at a time. It really blew my mind. And one of them was deeply embedded into addiction recovery too. And I was just blown away by this experience, which planted a big seed for me months later to go and meet this medicine at a small dose. And that experience was very large.

And after that experience, I said, I wanna learn more about this. And not only did I go out and do a much bigger experience, I also signed up for a year long training with five. Is the five M-E-O-D-M-T information of Vital Education. You could check them out at their website. And I actually just interviewed the founders, Joel and Victoria.

That was my last podcast episode that just came out so you could learn all about them. But I wanted to learn more about this experience because that experience, which by the way, I did have an ancient Egypt experience in one of those ceremonies with five MEL. I didn’t want to meet the medicine. It wanted to meet me.

And I think that’s what happens a lot of times when we’re ready, we’re called to the medicine. I did, had no intention of ever doing this medicine and it got presented to me and I did it. And I met it a few times and before I made the decision to do a year long training. Which would be, put me in Mexico for two weeks at the end of it, serving medicine, receiving medicines.

Very, it’s a very large medicine. It’s one that you definitely wanna do research on before you choose to engage in that. And obviously do it in a place where it’s offered legally, but I, yeah, that, that’s how I got to find the medicine was through another medicine, and eventually I chose to become a trauma-informed facilitator with the medicine because the experience was such a big one that I just needed to understand.

What are the risks as well for this, for someone to have this because it’s just like ayahuasca. It’s like your life before ayahuasca, life a after ayahuasca, it’s very different reality. A very different set point of your baseline of reality can really change the way we perceive reality. Yeah.

Sam Believ: Thank you for sharing.

Yeah. It’s interesting that you mentioned the calling me. The medicine gives you, I, I remember. Being explicitly called to ayahuasca, even though I’ve never done any psychedelics or drugs as I would call it back then. But the calling is very obvious when it comes. And funny enough the roles have reversed now with the podcast and the retreat and all the content I create, I somehow became the messenger for the Callal on behalf of Ayahuasca.

You’re officially invited to come to Lura because maybe. The reason we’re talking is also part of your calling. So whenever you feel like it. Let’s talk a little bit about shadow work. I know you like talking about it, what is the role of that shadow in somebody’s addiction?

Jesse Harless: The shadow work in many ways. I don’t know if it ends in this lifetime. I’m not sure. Maybe if it ends. You are now enlightened being, and I don’t know too many, 100% enlightened beings here. So the shadow work is something that despite all the work I’ve done, I’m coming up on 19 years of recovery and despite, a master’s in mental health counseling and I don’t even know how many years of meditation now, well over a decade, and all of the work I’ve done with.

All the different therapies. I journaled for 15 years straight every day. I did things really extreme in many ways. And I think that even with the integration work that I did with psychedelics, really deep integration work with not only people who are doctors, psychologists people who are expert coaches in this and many books read and articles and all these things.

The shadow work still continues. Obviously I couldn’t really see a lot of my shadows when I was first getting into recovery at 22. It was a very stressful time. I was doing what I was told to do. Now today, the shadow work is really big because despite my intentions to create a joyful life and have this freedom every day where I feel great and I can eat mangoes and the jungle and have this great experience, there’s still parts of me that are there that are my own, and some are not my own.

Some are the collective shadow, the stuff that comes to me that are my own stuff is this trauma narrative since I was a child that comes through that is from the mother wound. And so this mother wound continues to show up today, and it impacts my business. It impacts our relationships with intimate partners.

It impacts me in many different ways. So the shadow work is just being really honest with yourself and how you’re showing up and what people are telling you for feedback when you have close friends. They become a mirror to your shadow, to your bullshit, and they see things in you that they want to let you know about.

And if your feelings get really hurt, that’s how you know it’s probably part of your shadow. So some people are there to just be a guide and a mirror so you can see yourself as a reflection. And so shadow work, I don’t think ever stops unless there’s some type of way to enlightenment. I think that the shadow work is so key and that’s why doing integration coaching and integration work or work with a really skilled therapist who’s also familiar with psychedelics can be really powerful for integrating these shadows.

Sam Believ: Yeah, I think that is true. It’s like an ever ending battle. But I think you, you discover one shadow belief and you address it maybe. Diminishes power a little bit and two more comes out. I’ve met one of the coaches I worked with, he said he’s now in the round shadow belief number 50 or something like that.

There’s there is no end to that. But it’s nevertheless very important. Then I guess I ask, I can be really good at sometimes. Revealing your shadow studio. So then you can work with them, as you said integrate them.

Jesse Harless: Yeah. I like to speak to that actually. So that’s another thing.

I did all the work I could for 15 years to address the shadow. And when I started to get into psychedelic cys therapy, it blew the door open to shadows. I could not access these shadows, I could not access. And if you can access these shadows without medicine. Let me know, but I, when I started to get into medicines, including ayahuasca, I started to see parts of myself I could not access.

So I just wanna share that for me and my story, I started to access really deep parts of myself that, 15 years of therapy. All the cold therapy I was doing, all the practices, I was doing, all the stuff where I was in contemplation for hours at a time, days at a time. I couldn’t see what I couldn’t see until I started to utilize psychedelics and psychedelic assisted therapy.

So I just wanna share that’s really cracked the door open to really a whole different nervous system. I, my nervous system is completely different than it was before I started psychedelics.

Sam Believ: Yeah, psychedelics is a really powerful tool and if used correctly, can be incredibly efficient. The analogy I like to use is.

Mental health is a journey of digging a tunnel. Psychedelics is is a dynamite. And the other work like integration, meditation, yoga, coaching therapy is shovels and picks because from that analogy, if you, that big explosion to remove this. Big mess of stone is extremely powerful.

And then you use the integration to remove the rubble, clean it up, and get ready for the next explosion. Because if you just keep exploding, you just get dust everywhere, it’s mess, you’re not gonna progress much as well. Or your tunnel will collapse and at the same time, if you just do picks and shovels you can get somewhere.

But it’s really slow comparatively to work with psychedelics because they really help you break that pattern. You mentioned cold therapy as well. Not only that, you wrote a book on cold showers and here at Laro, we actually had an IS bath for a few years. It broke recently, so I’m now saving up to get a new one and a better version and also build a sauna.

So I’m a big fan of cold therapy myself. But Why did you write a book on cold therapy? Cold Char specifically, and, what role did it play in your mental health journey as well?

Jesse Harless: Yeah, so cold showers came in 2015. It was information I received from a close friend. He said to me, I live in New Hampshire, by the way, the Northeast, so it was about 30 degrees Fahrenheit outside.

It was cold. And he said to me, you should start doing cold showers for 30 days. And I was like, why the hell would I do that? That’s ridiculous. I’ve been taking warm showers my whole life. I’m good. Instead of, having that type of mindset, I just took the cold shower right after he said it. I actually went in and I said, you know what, I’m gonna go do one of these cold showers.

And I turned the water all the way cold and I jumped in and it was super intense and, but I came out and a couple hours later I went to a meeting that I usually go to. And I’ve always had a little bit of, anxiety, like social anxiety and anxiety that came up in public. And I went to that meeting and I had no anxiety and I was like, this is really interesting.

The only thing I did differently was take a straight cold shower, and it got me really intrigued. So I decided to do the 30 days of cold showers in the wintertime in New Hampshire and. That led to like me doing it for years straight every day. And I don’t, again, I do, I recommend that for everyone. No, but that’s what I did.

And so after a few years of cold showers, what ended up happening was I met a group of entrepreneurs that were, writing books and doing different things, and someone challenged me, they said, why don’t you write a book about cold showers? You love these cold showers, you’ve gotten so many people to take and why do you write a book?

I was no expert in cold therapy. I just knew it really benefited me and the people that I told, especially people who were addicted to like serious hard drugs, which is a whole study that you’d have to pay a lot of money to do. There is be people coming to me who are addicted to crystal meth and different hard drugs.

And I would say to them, ’cause this is the best I could do at the time, besides telling them about a fellowship. I would say, why don’t you try to take a stray cold shower for the next 10 days? And they would report back to me and say, dude, this is really helping me. This is helping me to do other practices, other habits that I can stack on top of a cold shower.

And that’s really where I became convinced that there’s something big about cold therapy and just like psychedelics, it might not be for everybody, but for me, cold showers are still a part of my life today. I do both. I do contrast showers, so I do hot and cold. So that’s where I found out about it. It was a challenge that led into, years of the habit.

Sam Believ: Yeah. Thank you for sharing. Yeah. This is one of those very simple things people can try immediately. You don’t, need to do much preparation and then observe how you’re feeling better. I think same applies to mental health issues, like depression can really help you. And as you mentioned, anxiety yeah, unfortunately cold showers here in Columbia are not really that cold, so we do need to set up a special setup.

But yeah, it’s it’s a wonderful tool. You mentioned, you were in this group of entrepreneurs and you have a podcast that’s called Entrepreneurs in Recovery. Understand the recovery part. What is the entrepreneur part? What, how did you pick the name?

Jesse Harless: So the name came to me in a meditation.

I was doing a meditation one day, and this name Entrepreneurs Recovery, came to me in a meditation. But this was also during a time where I landed my dream job at Verizon and I wasn’t happy. To back up a little bit, I spent 13, 14 years at Verizon Wireless at a nine to five job, which is not a nine to five.

You have all kinds of crazy hours. I just dedicated myself to be the best I could possibly be in sales, and I became one of the top salesmen in the company and what ended up happening was I won the highest award you can be offered, which is called President’s Cabinet, would you where you get to meet the president, vice president of the company, you go to Switzerland, all this five star treatment.

When I came back, I got into this new position, which was like I said, my dream job and dude, I was super depressed. I was really depressed. I, in fact, at lunchtime I would often just lay down with depression because I was so just, I thought that I’d be fulfilled by having this dream job, and I was just not fulfilled at all.

So I started to investigate through a book I was reading. Called the Miracle Morning. This guy Hal Elrod and who is an entrepreneur, and I ended up joining his mastermind, which put me around lots of entrepreneurs. And I, these guys were my age. These men and women were my age. And they were making enough money to cover not just their basic nut of what they needed to pay for bills, but much more, many of them.

And I said to myself, I bet I could do that if I put all of my effort that I put into selling technology for Verizon. I bet I could actually pay all my bills on my own. And thus begun the journey in 2017 where I left that nine to five job. I sold my house and I started the path of entrepreneurs and recovery.

And really the why entrepreneurs and recovery is because, number one, my life had been dedicated to recovery. And number two, I wanted to study entrepreneurs who knew how to do things I didn’t know how to do. Specifically ones that were in recovery from addiction, sex addiction, porn addiction cocaine addiction, alcohol addiction, work at work, alcoholism.

I wanted to study these people who had all these different types of addictions who were now in recovery and massively successful. So I had these archetype of an entrepreneur recovery, and I set out to. Get around them. And I did. And I was mentored by many of these amazing people. And that led to the start of, entrepreneurs Recovery Podcast, which happened last year, but that took many years for me to do that.

So yeah. So that’s really the reason for the Entrepreneurs Recovery brand.

Sam Believ: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think your stories very similar to mine. ’cause I was also in a very high paying job and a very unfulfilling one. Entrepreneurship was the the direction I also chosen. Yeah, there’s a lot of entrepreneurs that are addicted to work.

They’re addicted to substances. Some of them are good at entrepreneurship just because, it’s their coping mechanisms. So let’s talk about, addiction as a coping mechanism.

Jesse Harless: So addiction as a coping mechanism. I think that there’s, when people hear the word addiction, they get triggered.

Many people hear the word addiction. They don’t like it. ’cause when they think of an addict, they think of someone who is addicted to alcohol or stealing money from their aunt’s purse and getting fentanyl. They don’t think of it as themselves. So I think of addiction to me. Is again similar to GABA mate, right?

It’s, any behavior that we do repeatedly that gives pleasure in the short term, but causes long-term and short-term consequences. And so if with that definition, that could be anything, you could have people who are just stuck in their story that they cannot get by. You could be someone who’s addicted to the programming of this world, of all the stuff that we’ve been indoctrinated with that’s keeping you stuck.

You could be addicted to certain foods, you could be addicted to numbing out with technology. Look at how long teenagers are on their cell phone today, I think. What is the average time now? 10 to 12 hours a day. So I think. These things are the norm. I think addiction is the norm. So I think the coping mechanism from addiction is because of all of the lies we’ve been fed, all of the things that we have to deal with to get to the true self.

It’s really challenging and people are more isolated than ever. So you have COVID that happens and now you have people who are coming out of that, still feeling the effects of what COVID did with this incredible isolation and depression. And these restrictions that people are still recovering from.

So addiction in many ways becomes the coping mechanism. And you could be addicted to procrastination. I know people who cannot get started. They go to do something and then immediately they’ll call it a DHD. They’ll be like, I can’t do this. I’m not focused. But in many ways, to me, they’re addicted to certain parts of firing neurochemicals in their brain that continue to keep them very stuck.

And you could look at the work of Dr. Joe Dispenza. To confirm a lot of this stuff of getting addicted and that’s why he has a book called Breaking the Habit of Being Yourself. Because that’s a great analogy is like being stuck with that ego concept of self. So coping mechanism it’s like I said, it’s the norm.

I think many people who could, if they could be free of their mind addiction, their emotional addictions. Their behavioral addictions, they could thrive. I really believe they could build a life, we could build a community and a tribalism that we’ve never seen if we could break away from a lot of this stuff.

But I understand it’s really challenging and with what’s happening in the world and this duality, this dualistic nature of what’s happening, it’s really hard not to find ways to numb out.

Sam Believ: That’s a great great analysis of, addictions. You, I’ve met people that are addicted to feeling bad. They, they don’t know other way. And if they feel anything else they get uncomfortable. So they quickly rush back to finding another problem to be focused on. It’s interesting you mentioned Joe Dispenza.

I occasionally do his meditations including one yesterday. It’s hard for me. I do them in the evening before going to bed, and a lot of times I fall asleep. I know he tells you to do seated, but refer to light down. But I went to the event in Cancun. Have you ever been to his events?

Jesse Harless: I’ve never been to his event. I’ve been to a, an all day seminar with him from nine to five, but I’ve never been to like those week long events. No.

Sam Believ: Interesting. I went and it was a very interesting, experience for me and also showing you what is possible when you see a room of 2,500 people meditating and working on themselves.

It shows you that it is possible to get an audience and when maybe when pla medicines as well go mainstream, we will see more people coming to that work. And as you say, building communities of like-minded people that are all, going in the same direction. That sounds, for me, that’s part of my work is plant medicines is at the core of it.

But as I like to say, it’s you come for ayahuasca, stay for the community. We’re slowly building a community of people. Like we have some people coming to visit us and then they love it so much, then they just come here to retire and just stay here forever. And hopefully, eventually I’ll have that that community and maybe it will be an example for other communities to be formed.

One last question I had to you is about spheres model F-E-A-I-R-S. Can you talk to us what it is and why is it important?

Jesse Harless: Wow. You’re probably the third person ever to ask me that question the Fears model is something that I wrote down in my book, and it was after studying all these different entrepreneurs and thought leaders and spiritual leaders, I developed a model which is fears, which is, did you work on your fears today?

And Fears is an acronym which stands for Focus, elevate, appreciate resilience and self-care. And if we break those east down. I’ll do a high level version of it. So f focus is focus on your recovery. Focus on your priorities. So if you are someone who is struggling with an addiction or they’re struggling with some type of wounding that they sit, can’t seem to get by, focus on your recovery.

So start writing down on a to-do list. What is the priorities today? Maybe it’s starting my day with a cold shower. Maybe it’s starting my day with five minutes of Joe Dispenza’s meditation. Maybe it’s booking the trip to La Wire Lara and starting to do this deeper work, but focus on your recovery.

That’s number one. Number two, elevate your recovery. How do I elevate my recovery? I can do that many ways. One way to do that is through visualization. I, you can start to visualize. What do I wanna see in my mind’s eye of what the outcome of my life wants to be? You start to create that reality that’s beyond this three dimensional reality.

And maybe it’s even a quantum reality of this is what I want to see and have happen in my life. And you can do that in many different ways. One way is visualization. I know some people say they have a hard time visualizing, so then create a vision board. Then put things on a board that you look at every single day.

If you can’t visualize in your mind. Then go ahead and put it on a board where I can walk by it every day and see this is what I wanna create. And again, this is the really high level version of this. Appreciate, appreciate your recovery. Have gratitude, appreciation. I’m in the land of Ura Vida here.

I have so much to be grateful for here. I get incredible fruits. I get incredible water. I got the ocean. I have all these things here. How can I spread appreciation to the people, to the locals, to the people I meet? Spread appreciation to the forest, the jungles, all these things. So increasing appreciation.

Also, it’s forgiveness too, but you’ll have to read my book to go into that. The next is resilience. Resilience and recovery. So when we, when I think of resilience, man, how resilient have you been, Sam? How resilient have I been to get to this place where I am today? And how many people have been resilient in just over the last few years with what we just went through?

So resilience is tuning into that innate resilience that I have that can’t break me no matter what. And that’s also doing things like a cold shower. Do things that remind you of your resilience, tapping into that resilience. It’s also the resilience of your heart. Your heart is a very powerful magnet that is much more powerful than the brain when it comes to energy and electromagnetic energy.

So res the resilience of your heart as you build it through meditation and deep contemplation of mindfulness practices. Can make you more resilient. Finally, is self-care. Self-care is huge. Self-care is the integration process After medicine experience, self-care is what you do after you, you go and you find ways to not drink alcohol anymore, and now you’re gonna find ways to increase.

Your water intake, your diet and nutrition. So self-care is huge for everybody, but especially people who are coming through a recovery process. So that’s the real high level of the fears model. I what I say to people is, did you work in your fears today? It reminds them of thinking of these things and it could be a lot.

So you can just start with one, which can be focus, that’s it.

Sam Believ: It’s a great it’s a great model and it’s very easy to remember. So make notes guys, and, jesse where can people find more about you? Where can they read your books and where do you want them to go?

Jesse Harless: From here

Sam Believ: on?

Jesse Harless: I would say you can go to my website, jesse harless.com.

You could go to the YouTube and check out my podcast. Entrepreneurs Are Recovery Podcast. You go to entrepreneurs recovery.com. Jesse harless.com. That’s the best way to probably find me.

Sam Believ: Yeah, guys. Go to Jesse’s podcast if you go there. What? What are you publishing? Our episode?

Jesse Harless: I think the episode, it’s in about eight or nine weeks, but who knows?

Maybe it gets bumped up a little bit because I really wanna release that because it was such an engaging conversation about addiction and plant medicine.

Sam Believ: So let’s say October-ish go to Jesse’s podcast. And then you can also find him interviewing me. And especially if you’re dealing with addictions, definitely check it out because Jesse knows a lot and he’s a great example that you can overcome them and you can survive and strive.

Jesse. So thank you so much for coming on and sharing with us. It was a great experience. Thank you for the work you’re doing. Any, anything else you wanna say to the audience?

Jesse Harless: No, I’m really excited. I would say to everyone, follow your gut, follow your intuition, and also use your mind as well.

Be smart. Navigate these waters, reach out to people like Sam and reach out to people who know what they’re talking about in the space. ’cause you can get seriously injured if you’re not wise and you’re not getting, seeking good counsel and receiving medicine from people who are trained. So definitely I would just say, thank you so much, Sam. It’s been an honor to meet you. I’m really excited to come out to La Wire. It’s definitely happening, so I’ll see you soon, my friend.

Sam Believ: Thank you, Jesse. Guys, you’ve been listening to our podcast and I will see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you’d like to support us and psychedelic Renaissance at large, please follow us and leave us a like wherever it is you’re listening.

Share this episode with someone who will benefit from this information. Nothing in this podcast is intended as medical advice, and it is for educational and entertainment purposes only. This episode is sponsored by Lara Ayahuasca Retreat. At Lara, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity.

Lara Connect,

Jesse Harless: heal. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you.

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with Steve Thayer, PhD, a clinical psychologist specializing in psychedelic-assisted therapy, particularly with ketamine. Steve is the clinical director for psychotherapy and training at Numinus and co-hosts the Psychedelic Therapy Frontiers podcast.

We touch upon topics like:

Steve’s journey into mental health and psychedelics (00:57)

Ketamine-assisted therapy and its benefits (03:18)

Spirituality and intuition in personal growth (05:56)

Challenges faced by first responders and veterans (13:19)

Psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy vs. traditional therapy (16:52)

Accelerating the therapeutic process with psychedelics (18:25)

Psychological flexibility and the impact of psychedelics (19:24)

The role of facilitators in ensuring safe psychedelic experiences (50:42)

The importance of training and self-awareness for facilitators (51:12)

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats, go to http://www.lawayra.com.
Find more about Steve Thayer at http://www.drstevethayer.com or on Instagram @drstevethayer.

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:02)

Hi guys and welcome to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always with you the host Sam Biliyev. Today I’m having a conversation with Steve Thayer, PhD. ⁓ He’s a clinical psychologist specializing in psychedelic assisted therapy, particularly using ketamine. After serving in US Air Force, he transitioned to working with psychedelics to treat conditions like PTSD and depression. He is the clinical director for psychotherapy and training at Numinous.

Sam Believ (00:30)

and he also co -hosts the Psychedelic Therapy Frontiers podcast. Steve, welcome to the show.

Steve Thayer (00:37)

Thanks, Sam. Really appreciate inviting me on.

Sam Believ (00:40)

⁓ Yeah, it’s a pleasure having you on Steve. Before we kind of like start going deep, tell us a little bit about how did you come, you know, how did your life story bring you into mental health and then specifically psychedelics?

Steve Thayer (00:57)

Yeah. Well, you know, as a young boy, I struggled with my own mental health, experienced depressed moods and was pretty anxious. ⁓ in retrospect, I think I had a little bit of OCD and so, ⁓ it got me really curious about the human mind, the human condition. Why was it that I was struggling in the ways that I was, especially because I had a really actually pretty idyllic upbringing, ⁓ great parents, great family, great community.

Steve Thayer (01:24)

And so as I aged and got into, you later in high school and into college, I got really interested in philosophy. And then my dad sort of teased me like, you know, you’re not going to make any money and just be able to support a family as a philosophy major. And so I thought, well, why don’t I get into psychology? That seemed like applied philosophy to me. So you got a bachelor’s degree in psychology, had a knack for listening. I was deeply curious about others and

Steve Thayer (01:50)

My own struggle had made me fairly compassionate about the struggle of others. So I thought, you know, why don’t I take all the things that I’m learning and really apply it and be helpful. So then I got into a clinical psychology PhD program and yeah, ⁓ I became a clinical psychologist. And then I ⁓ joined the military when I got, when I, when I finished my training as a clinical psychologist, you, the capstone to that training as an internship or kind of like a doctor’s residency. And I did mine with the military.

Steve Thayer (02:20)

And in order to do that, I had to join the military. So I came in as a commissioned officer and was in the military for four years. And in the military, I really got an appreciation for the ways in which people suffer, especially in response to combat trauma, but also a little disillusioned by what we could do to help these folks. I mean, we were using the kinds of therapies and treatments that were considered best practices based on the science and we were being helpful, but ⁓ I was just dissatisfied with, with,

Steve Thayer (02:50)

how unhelpful we were also being. So when I got out of the military, I was really looking for what’s the next frontier? What’s the cutting edge? What’s the tip of the spear? And that’s when I discovered ketamine. I was fortunate enough there was a local ketamine clinic where I ended up here in Utah. So I started working with them and had a few ketamine treatments myself because I was struggling with some depressed mood. And the first few treatments were a little underwhelming, to be honest.

Steve Thayer (03:18)

They were particularly effective for me. But then one really was what a lot of people describe as a psychedelic experience. know, there’s a little bit of a debate about whether or not ketamine should be included under that broad umbrella of psychedelic, but consciousness altering and mind manifesting for sure. And that really piqued my curiosity. So started really studying, ⁓ Michael Pollan’s book, like many people, which got me appraised on the history of psychedelics that I wasn’t really familiar with.

Steve Thayer (03:47)

Long story short, got to, become part of a company called Nova Mind that was trying to be one of those, you know, bigger companies in the psychedelic medicine space, doing teaching training for their therapists there on how to do ketamine assisted therapy specifically. but also started to get involved in clinical trials. Nova Mind got acquired by the company that I’m now a part of, Numinous. And, ⁓ the, the mission is threefold. You know, we, we provide mental health care, full spectrum mental health care.

Steve Thayer (04:16)

including ketamine assisted therapy. We teach and train other therapists on how to do psychedelic assisted therapy through our certification program. We also continue to do psychedelic clinical trials. you know, our sites ⁓ do a lot of clinical trials. I’ve gotten to do clinical trials on psilocybin for treatment resistant depression and major depressive disorder, I’ve had the opportunity to work with LSD for generalized anxiety disorder, ketamine.

Steve Thayer (04:44)

We’ve got studies on five MEO DMT. We just started a study on an MDMA analog. So a drug similar to MDMA. We got one coming up potentially for NNDMT. So just lots of really cool opportunities to work with the medicine. then finally I’ll say I had some other experiences with other psychedelics that were transformative and just really wanted to find a way to bring those experiences to people who are really struggling as a therapist.

Steve Thayer (05:13)

Do more. Do more than I had been able to do for people in the past.

Sam Believ (05:19)

Thank you, Steve. Thank you for sharing your story. ⁓ The ⁓ question that comes to me is, for example, me myself as previously an engineer in offshore oil and gas and now kind of running in the Ayahuasca retreat. It doesn’t seem obvious, you know, the transition from military to now psychedelics. And in my own journey, I kind of observed, you know, synchronicities and, you know, when it comes to making decisions, there seems to be a push. Have you ever noticed anything? ⁓

Sam Believ (05:49)

let’s say some form of guidance, like in a way you ⁓ became ⁓ who you became.

Steve Thayer (05:56)

Hmm. That’s a really insightful question, Sam, because you know, I grew up in a, ⁓ religious framework. I was raised in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints, often called the Mormons. And, as a young person, I was very spiritual for lack of a better term. Like I was trying to find and follow the messages that I thought were coming from God. And then.

Steve Thayer (06:23)

As a young adult, I left that religion and that transition was very difficult for me because I rudderless. Like I didn’t have wind in my sails. didn’t know exactly where to go. ⁓ and like so many people who go through that transition, I, I, there was a period of time where I felt pretty nihilistic, ⁓ pretty hopeless, but I started to, to play around with following intuition, right? The, God within the truth in my gut.

Steve Thayer (06:52)

And instead of outsourcing guidance to some deity who I had to guess what they wanted for me, trying to follow the intuition that I felt. Whereas generally speaking, I’m a pretty cerebral guy. try to solve problems and think my way through issues. was trying to get in touch with what I felt inside. And that feeling was never more potent or clear than when I was using a psychedelic medicine.

Steve Thayer (07:22)

And the first time I experienced psilocybin, was like, ⁓ this is mindfulness, right? This is connection to source, to spirit, to the universe, to God, whatever. And I don’t have to understand it completely, right? That the divine is something that you can experience, but maybe never fully comprehend. And that’s okay. So finding safety in ambiguity was something I thought I would never find. And psychedelics have helped me approach that safety. So

Steve Thayer (07:50)

You know, in a roundabout way, I’m trying to answer your question by saying, felt like by following my gut, was guided. just try to follow my curiosity. And you know, I, I growing up, I had never altered my consciousness at all. Never consumed alcohol, never consumed coffee or tea, you know, really never taken anything but, but Tylenol ⁓ for physical pain. And then the first time I altered my consciousness is with psychedelics.

Steve Thayer (08:16)

So it was pretty profound and I feel like I’m kind of thinking in real time, this great question is having me reflect. I think I was guided and I don’t know how else to describe that. don’t pretend to know exactly how it happened, following, trying to get familiar with and follow my intuition was part of it for sure.

Sam Believ (08:34)

Thank you, Steve. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense because ⁓ it’s really hard to explain. ⁓ But there seems to be this kind of thing where like a lot of people almost like scooped from all kinds of walks of life and just kind of their direction is being altered. I don’t know. I don’t really believe much in it myself still. I’m still trying to make sense of it. But yeah, in my own journey, it’s just so unpredictable the way I ended up ⁓ doing things I ended up doing and yeah, the inner guidance and also just

Sam Believ (09:04)

those synchronicities. You mentioned that you come up, ⁓ you were part of Mormon Church and it’s like what I’ve been noticing, and we get a lot of people from US with specifically quite a big representation, people from Utah and there’s a lot of that sort of religious trauma, I guess, and just people really seeking that. So I don’t know if you, ⁓ what is, Utah seems to be

Sam Believ (09:33)

very special place and now also for psychedelics. I don’t know if you can say anything about that, just out of curiosity.

Steve Thayer (09:42)

Yeah. think, ⁓ you know, I think this is true of a lot of so -called high demand religions, but I’ll speak from like an LDS or Mormon perspective specifically that, ⁓ when you’re part of that church and you believe in that doctrine, you’re sort of all in and, there’s a Mormonism has very mystical origin. And so there’s, there’s a tolerance for the mystical.

Steve Thayer (10:12)

And when people struggle with their faith or maybe even leave that faith, it creates a big hole. And they’re looking for reconnection to God, to that sense of mysticism, to the idea that there’s something bigger, that there’s something eternal about us. And so I think there.

Steve Thayer (10:38)

You know, I can’t, I can’t pretend to be able to explain it all, but I think there’s, there’s an appetite for connection and, ⁓ a tolerance, as I said, for the mystical that makes people in Utah, maybe in particular, or people who struggling with their Mormon faith, sort of ready for a psychedelic experience. ⁓ so, and because the, the demographics of belief are changing worldwide,

Steve Thayer (11:04)

particularly in the US and the Mormon folks are no exception to that. as we become more secular as a society, we’re looking for ways to connect and find meaning. And the psychedelic experience is a very powerful way to do that for many people. I do have some concerns that people will sort of leave one dogma for another. And I do see that sometimes. Some of my clients are so -called psychedelic community refugees where they really got wrapped up in a community.

Steve Thayer (11:34)

that was using psychedelics, maybe being facilitated by somebody who didn’t have the right intentions and whose ego is, you know, at the front of the stage instead of being of service. And I’ve seen people really get hurt. ⁓ but I’ve also seen people do a lot of healing.

Sam Believ (11:51)

Yeah, it’s an interesting one as a sort of leader of a community myself and inadvertently. So I am very conscious of that. I think there is a very thin line between let’s say an ayahuasca retreat or a cult because ⁓ you know, people are so suggestible in their open state. So I think you have to be really careful with what you say and how you say it because I’ve had some facilitators that

Sam Believ (12:20)

were kind of attracting too much attention to themselves and they can easily make your psychedelic experience be about them. it’s and yeah, there’s definitely a ⁓ lot of like true spirituality that can come from psychedelics. As in like I definitely didn’t believe in anything before I ever started working with ayahuasca and now I kind of pretty I’m pretty sure you know there is there is God ⁓ whatever you want to call it.

Sam Believ (12:50)

⁓ Let’s go back to, you know, before you started working with psychedelics and you were working as a therapist in the military, ⁓ we get lots of first responders and it’s almost unfair, know, ⁓ people that ⁓ know, like society knows that they’re the people that ⁓ deal with a lot of stress, but at the same time, they’re not allowed to, you ⁓ know, they’re not allowed to work with psychedelics. Sometimes they don’t, they’re not even allowed to…

Sam Believ (13:19)

say that they’re struggling mentally because then it can affect their job. Like what do you think about that? And now after working with psychedelics, ⁓ what do you think, would it be helpful maybe for ⁓ first responders or military specifically?

Steve Thayer (13:36)

I think it can potentially be helpful. know, we interviewed a gentleman, Michael Higgs on our podcast, who military veteran himself brings military veterans for, I think it was five MEO and a Boga ceremonies. You know, there’s plenty of, Heroic Hearts project. There’s a lot of communities who are trying to get veterans access to these powerful healing modalities. I remember being in the military and being very frustrated.

Steve Thayer (14:05)

by all the barriers between a service member and help. You know, I, ⁓ I was working at a, at a military base where there were a lot of folks who had sort of high security clearances, very sensitive jobs. And so they were under a lot of attention and scrutiny for anything that could potentially jeopardize their ability to do their job. So as a therapist, that meant when they came to see me, I had to write a letter to their commander detailing what

Steve Thayer (14:34)

might be a disqualifying condition for their job. So they didn’t have a lot of privacy. mean, imagine just going on your random therapist and they’re like, yeah, tell me everything about you, but if there’s anything concerning, I’m gonna write a letter to your boss. hell no, I’m not gonna talk to you. So that prevented people from showing up at all, or if they did show up from being completely honest, which really, as you can imagine, put a damper on the therapeutic process. And so that was active duty, right?

Steve Thayer (15:00)

But I still, to your point, I still think there is a bit of a stigma on our protectors and helpers being vulnerable and needing help, right? We rely on these folks to protect us and to help us when we’re in need. So sometimes it might make us a little uncomfortable, the idea that they need help. I think that is changing though, Sam. think the, you know, people are recognizing that first responders, especially after the COVID -19 pandemic and the trauma that we all experienced, you know, first responders, physicians, nurses, certainly experienced.

Steve Thayer (15:31)

that these people need a special kind of help. So it’s tragic to me. And I think more than tragic, it’s an injustice that those people who serve our country and are wounded in that service, psychologically and physically have to leave our country to get access to medicine that can be potentially really helpful because it’s not legal here. And that just makes me mad and sad.

Sam Believ (15:54)

Yeah, that really kind of sucks. For example, we have had people like, obviously I’m not going to name any names, but like head of surgery departments of big hospitals in the U .S. that come over here because they’re like at the whim, literally suicidal and nothing else can help. They cannot complain because then they’re going to lose their job. So they come to South America seeking out, asking help. And yeah, especially like a lot of doctors that

Steve Thayer (16:14)

Mm

Sam Believ (16:23)

cannot seem to find healing in their own medical system, which hopefully people like you are catering to because you’re gonna, you know, give more options to the therapist to work with because a lot of times I think with just therapy alone, when it does not involve any ⁓ psychedelics, seems to be the progress is too slow. maybe you can, as an expert, talk to us a little bit about, just

Sam Believ (16:52)

therapy versus psychedelic assisted psychotherapy.

Steve Thayer (16:57)

Yeah, you know, I should say that therapy is helpful. Like it’s helpful for a lot of people, regular old therapy, right? By that I mean not medicine assisted. So it’s not that the tools we have are completely ineffective. Like I was saying earlier, I’m just not satisfied. And most of the people who have sought mental health care, well, a lot of the people I should say, would likely agree, especially for these conditions that are so -called treatment resistant.

Steve Thayer (17:25)

right, like chronic PTSD or certain forms of depression or obsessive compulsive disorder, bipolar disorder, like these things that are so disruptive and that we don’t have good data to suggest that our treatments are very effective or as effective as they could be. So, you know, most of the work that I do is still not medicine assisted therapy. Part of that just being because legally the only medicine I have access to in my clinic is ketamine. But, so, you know,

Steve Thayer (17:54)

Regular therapy can still be very helpful, but one of the things I am passionate about with respect to psychedelic assisted therapy, and it’s why I pivoted my career to psychedelic therapy research and application is how psychedelics and psychedelic assisted therapy can accelerate the therapeutic process, or I should say, or grant access to healing to people who have tried all the things and haven’t been able to heal.

Steve Thayer (18:25)

Why that happens is an empirical question, maybe even a psycho spiritual question that we’re still investigating. We have some ideas and you’ve interviewed some people on this podcast who have been able to articulate some of those reasons. But you know, one of the ways I like to think about it in the therapeutic context is that psychedelics seem to help the mind be a bit more flexible. And if you think of mental illness or mental health problems on this spectrum of flexibility, a lot of what makes us sick is an inflexibility of thought.

Steve Thayer (18:54)

and feeling. ⁓ you know, I, I think I am a piece of garbage and nothing can convince me otherwise, even though I have people in my life who love me, even though, you know, if I, if I were to interview the people around this person, they would say definitely not a piece of garbage. In fact, they really care about him and love him that that data can’t update the belief. And you know, Robin Cart, Harris talks about the neurophysiology of this, but psychedelics react, relax the mind in a certain way, make it more plastic and flexible that then allow that data.

Steve Thayer (19:24)

to actually update the core beliefs. And so people can change from that place. Cause you, it’s a ma I’m imagining like this, these cables, there’s this wire in the brain and a wire in the heart and they never connect and psychedelics, you know, clears the path and they’re allowed to connect. And for the, I’ve heard clients say for the first time, I actually felt the truth of the things I was trying to believe. I remember I had a client who was struggling with an eating disorder and under the influence of ketamine, they just, they experienced

Steve Thayer (19:53)

for the first time, an appreciation for their body, right? Where, you know, up until that point they had hated their body and was trying to starve it and shape it so that it would be acceptable. So it can accelerate, it can grant access to things. It can create psychological flexibility where up until that point it has been very difficult to do so. Now I will sort of caution people. Some people will think of psychedelics as sort of this panacea or this miracle cure. You know, you’ve heard it described as

Steve Thayer (20:23)

therapy in a bottle or chemical mindfulness or, you know, 10 years of therapy in a day. And certainly some people have that experience. I don’t think that is, I think it’s more the exception than the rule psychedelics still require thorough preparation. ⁓ sometimes they make things very, very difficult before they make things better. Some, for some folks, they make things a lot worse. ⁓ and you know, expert facilitation and guidance and thorough integration are also really important in order to.

Steve Thayer (20:53)

make the best out of a psychedelic therapy experience. So there’s a lot of info there in that answer, but hopefully that makes sense.

Sam Believ (21:00)

That makes a lot of sense and I appreciate the groundedness of kind of like explaining, you know, that it is not that magic bullet. That’s kind of my daily life when ⁓ I get a new group of people coming in with all sorts of issues and they want the solution right there right now. And it’s kind of, you know, hard to bring those bad news that, you know, it’s actually psychedelics is just that door.

Sam Believ (21:30)

to this long corridor of healing. And yes, it can like really open it really hard, really quickly. And there’s a lot of progress that will come from that, but you still need to walk the walk and do all the required. ⁓ Something you mentioned is like psycho -spiritual health, which is the word that I’ve been hearing a lot recently. it’s, I think as a society now we’re kind of accepting psychedelics.

Sam Believ (21:58)

but still mostly from a very psychological point of view. And me as somebody who is, I think I would like to say balanced in my approach of not going to Wuwu, but also still working with an indigenous shaman and seeing the work they do, but then also kind of grounding myself in a more reasonable studies and ⁓ psychological kind of understanding. ⁓

Sam Believ (22:27)

Where do you see, what ⁓ do you see there in this physical body, spiritual body, mental body? What is your view of spiritual healing now as ⁓ a psychiatrist but also somebody who experienced those feelings themselves?

Steve Thayer (22:47)

Yeah. You know, I think psychology, ⁓ lost its, lost its soul a little bit along the way as it tried to become a legitimate science, quote unquote legitimate science. ⁓ and that isn’t to say that the scientific method isn’t super important and have a really good method for, trying to examine reality. Right. And so I think it’s still a really good thing for all, you know, all the limitations acknowledged.

Steve Thayer (23:17)

for us to be trying to study psychedelic medicines, the phenomena that those medicines evoke in a human psyche so that we can try to figure out who these medicines might be good for, are they safe, are there ways to make them safer? I think the science needs to continue. But if that is all we do, I think we are missing out on a lot of really important things. Because to be human,

Steve Thayer (23:47)

is also to grapple with the unknowable, great, the grand mystery. ⁓ and so when I say psycho spiritual, that’s kind of what I think and what I mean, spiritual meaning, ⁓ how do I create meaning and purpose in my life is, am I connected to something that feels bigger than me, whether that’s community or God. And those of us that have used psychedelics, especially in a group setting, like an ayahuasca ceremony,

Steve Thayer (24:15)

know that it can evoke this feeling of communitas, this connection with other people on a deep soul level. And not just the people in the room, but sometimes ⁓ the people of your species, your ancestors, the human family. And so ⁓ if we say that’s all woo woo, I think we’re throwing out something that could be really, really important for our mental health, but also spiritual health. Also, ⁓ when I think about where psychedelics

Steve Thayer (24:44)

came from, you know, the people that have been using psychedelic medicines for hundreds, if not thousands of years, ⁓ are not people who were testing them in a laboratory, right? In a modern Western laboratory, they were folks that were using them for a variety of reasons. And through tradition and experience, they developed what I would just, I would call psycho spiritual technology. And that technology might be egress, that technology might be the combination of a plant and a vine.

Steve Thayer (25:13)

Right? That talk technology might be, ⁓ what you do when somebody is purging or trying not to purge. might be a drum. might be certain settings in the wilderness. So, and I call those technologies because, you know, maybe we didn’t arrive at them through the laboratory type scientific method, but there’s, there’s something true about those techniques. There’s something important and informed and insightful about those strategies.

Steve Thayer (25:43)

that if we just throw them out as, well, that’s what the people did in indigenous tribes and we have better access to information now, then we’re really throwing out something very, very important. So I think the modern Western world, as it’s trying to push psychedelic medicines through, for instance, an FDA medical pipeline, we need to learn from those ancient technologies. And I think there’s room, I hope there’s room for all of us to do these things in our own ways so that we can increase access to healing states.

Steve Thayer (26:13)

But yeah, those are the, some of the things I think of. Cause I think about the, I’ve, you know, had the privilege to be in ayahuasca circles before and I love how different they are than my ketamine therapy treatment in a, in a sterile, you know, basically hospital room that I had. And I think there’s wonderful things to be gained from both contexts. And I would hate to throw one out.

Sam Believ (26:34)

Yeah, I think grounding ourselves in tradition can be really helpful because it’s kind of like ⁓ if psychedelic experience is like a tree, the tradition is like the roots which ⁓ help hold it together. think, you know, maybe like part of what happened in 60s where the mini psychedelic wave kind of went wrong is because ⁓ they were trying to like rediscover it. And I think it’s a mistake like

Steve Thayer (26:46)

Hmm.

Sam Believ (27:02)

people in the West are doing where it’s like, kind of like when the colonization was happening is like, we were discovering this new land and we’re, it’s, but there were people already living there, right? So it’s, it’s kind of like, ⁓ accepting that there, there is an existing tradition, like instead of like rediscovering the bicycle, maybe getting something from it. And then a lot of people, and a lot of people I interviewed, they, there’s a lot of good

Sam Believ (27:29)

There are some good bridges in between those two traditional and therapeutical world. It’s just that whether people that ⁓ fund those studies will actually allow that information exchange to happen. Because obviously, I understand there’s a lot of interest in trying to patent the molecules and not working with existing stuff because for ⁓ money motives and that’s kind of we have to accept that.

Sam Believ (27:58)

That’s the world we live in and you gotta kind of follow the rules. So it makes a lot of sense. I think as long as we do it slowly and responsibly, that’s already better than the way it happened in the 60s. Do you have any opinion ⁓ of like the previous, let’s say, psychedelic waves that happened?

Steve Thayer (28:21)

Not strong opinions. wouldn’t ⁓ describe myself as a psychedelic historian. I I know what sort of the average person knows who’s curious about this space. It does seem just based on what I do know that there was, you know, there was a, there was a societal or maybe a political backlash against what some people would say was a pretty cavalier use of psychedelics. Yes, there was

Steve Thayer (28:49)

In the 50s and 60s, there was a lot of good science being done. But then there was this sort of cultural movement, often hung on the shoulders of people like Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert, aka Ram Dass, that spooked the normies, right? Spooked the muggles, ⁓ if you want to use those terms. Like, these people don’t want to participate in society. They want to turn on, or the tune in, on a dropout or something like that. Or, you if you want to get really cynical,

Steve Thayer (29:17)

They don’t want to submit to governmental rule and go to war for us. We got to do something about this. So, you know, the people that have been trying to carry that psychedelic torch through the darkness and then light it up here in this modern psychedelic Renaissance are trying to do it a different way. It seems, you know, let’s do it in tandem with government. Let’s do it in tandem with industry so that we can not spook these folks and make sure that we grant access. Like I was saying before,

Steve Thayer (29:46)

to these powerful medicines to people who really need it. And I understand that compromises have to be made and that sometimes you get bad actors who are trying to exploit a medicine simply for material gain or like you alluded to, there’s the destructive nature of colonization and appropriation. So it’s messy, it seemed, I I wasn’t alive in the sixties, but it seems less messy now than it was back then for a variety of factors. So it makes me a little hopeful.

Steve Thayer (30:14)

about this so -called modern renaissance. But we don’t know exactly what’s gonna happen. I mean, we did just see Lycos get denied for the FDA approval for MDMA -assisted therapy for PTSD, which shocked many of us, people who looked at that data and the MAPS Lycos data and thought it was gonna be a sure thing. So it’s ⁓ still gonna be a tricky challenge, I think, to get these medicines in front of as many people as might need them.

Sam Believ (32:53)

I lost you there for a second, ⁓ something happened with my internet.

Sam Believ (32:54)

I lost you there for a second, ⁓ something happened with my internet.

Steve Thayer (32:59)

That’s all right. can hear you now. so I stayed on. maybe the file.

Sam Believ (33:02)

Yeah, I think that the previous thing will probably be recorded as well. I think it’s somewhere there. So let’s just continue. I think there’ll be a second ⁓ recording. So ⁓ what ⁓ did you say in the last part, the part that I missed?

Sam Believ (33:03)

Yeah, I think that the previous thing will probably be recorded as well. I think it’s somewhere there. So let’s just continue. I think there’ll be a second ⁓ recording. So ⁓ what ⁓ did you say in the last part, the part that I missed?

Steve Thayer (33:23)

We were just talking about sort of the 50s and 60s. And then I ended by talking a bit about sort of the modern psychedelic Renaissance and how we don’t want to repeat the same mistakes. And I talked a bit about Lycos and MAPS and the denial of the FDA.

Sam Believ (33:25)

Mm -hmm.

Sam Believ (33:26)

Mm -hmm.

Sam Believ (33:40)

Yeah, cool. I’ll just, once I have both recordings, I’ll get my videographer to patch them up nicely. So we’ll just continue with the different questions. So ⁓ when you talk about, you know, societal change and ⁓ how if we do it too quick or maybe too rushed, ⁓ I mean, that’s my opinion. As somebody who kind of grew up and I was born in USSR, so ⁓

Sam Believ (33:40)

Yeah, cool. I’ll just once I have both recordings, I’ll get my videographer to patch them up nicely. So we’ll just continue with the with the different questions. So ⁓ when you talk about, you know, societal change and ⁓ how if we do it too quick or maybe too rushed, ⁓ I mean, that’s that’s that’s my opinion as somebody who kind of grew up and I was born in USSR. So ⁓

Sam Believ (34:10)

⁓ My first three years were in USSR. I don’t remember much but ⁓ as I was growing up in in now country of Latvia Which is part of European Union, so it kind of changed the From one Union to another but that’s it’s pretty crazy to see what can happen when? Changes happen too quickly like they went from Communism to capitalism. There was a lot of chaos. Nobody kind of understood what happens and it resolved in a lot of

Steve Thayer (34:10)

Hmm.

Sam Believ (34:11)

⁓ My first three years were in USSR. I don’t remember much but ⁓ as I was growing up in in now country of Latvia Which is part of European Union, so it kind of changed the From one Union to another but that’s it’s pretty crazy to see what can happen when? Changes happen too quickly like they went from Communism to capitalism. There was a lot of chaos. Nobody kind of understood what happens and it resolved in a lot of

Steve Thayer (34:29)

Hmm.

Sam Believ (34:37)

turmoil. somebody ⁓ who lives ⁓ now in this, you could say, community that ⁓ has to do with psychedelics, like what we’re trying to do is get people to come over, drink ayahuasca, but still keep working. We have a co -working space, we have ⁓ good internet most of the time, and we want people to use that psychedelic inspired creativity to do stuff, to change the world. ⁓

Sam Believ (34:37)

turmoil. So somebody who lives ⁓ now in this, you could say, community that ⁓ has to do with psychedelics, like what we’re trying to do is get people to come over, drink ayahuasca, but still keep working. We have a co -working space, we have ⁓ good internet most of the time, and we want people to use that psychedelic inspired creativity to do stuff, to change the world. ⁓

Sam Believ (35:05)

but gradually because you wouldn’t want to go from all of a sudden everyone drinking ayahuasca at the same time and like society collapsing because we still all need like, you know, there’s this good example that just to make a pencil you make, you need like 300 different elements and that society is really valuable. ⁓ I wish that we go through the change, but it has to be done gradually. So don’t tune in and drop out immediately, you know, do it gradually. So.

Sam Believ (35:06)

but gradually because you wouldn’t want to go from all of a sudden everyone drinking ayahuasca at the same time and like society collapsing because we still all need like, you know, there’s this good example that just to make a pencil you make, you need like 300 different elements and that society is really valuable. ⁓ I wish that we go through the change, but it has to be done gradually. So don’t tune in and drop out immediately, you know, do it gradually. So.

Sam Believ (35:35)

Hopefully, maybe, don’t know, guess, we’ll be able to find another way to live where maybe we hurt ecology less and ⁓ we’re more loving, maybe there’s less wars, but it got to be done slowly. ⁓ Which kind of brings me to, you mentioned that you’re a big fan of philosophy ⁓ growing up. ⁓ and philosophy, obviously, a lot of it comes from Greece ⁓ and there were also

Sam Believ (35:36)

Hopefully, maybe, don’t know, guess, we’ll be able to find another way to live where maybe we hurt ecology less and ⁓ we’re more loving, maybe there’s less wars, but it got to be done slowly. ⁓ Which kind of brings me to, you mentioned that you’re a big fan of philosophy ⁓ growing up. ⁓ and philosophy, obviously, a lot of it comes from Greece ⁓ and there were also

Sam Believ (36:05)

Drinking psychedelics had an episode recently with ⁓ the lady who she was coming live from Greece. She’s Greek herself and she’s exploring those traditions. So what do you think about that? Where is there this interlap between philosophy and psychedelics and ⁓ you as somewhat a philosopher yourself, ⁓ what have you learned maybe from psychedelics?

Sam Believ (36:05)

Drinking psychedelics had an episode recently with ⁓ the lady who she was coming live from Greece. She’s Greek herself and she’s exploring those traditions. So what do you think about that? You where is there this interlap between philosophy and psychedelics and you as somewhat a philosopher yourself, ⁓ what have you learned maybe from psychedelics?

Steve Thayer (36:28)

Yeah, well, I don’t know. ⁓ I don’t myself much of a philosopher, but I do study a lot and think a lot about the human condition and what it means to be a person and how to make meaning out of life. think, you know, I’ve read some of the things, some of the theories about the role that psychedelics have played in ancient traditions, including Grecian traditions, like the Ellucian mysteries. It’s fun for me to think that

Steve Thayer (36:56)

You know, that, ⁓ there was this ritual that some of the greatest thinkers that the West has ever seen participated in and that helped them, you know, come up with some of their ideas and their theories. And this idea that one, in order to find oneself, one has to lose oneself. I think plays well with those of us that have had a psychedelic experiences that to really know what it means to be human, that maybe we need to experience,

Steve Thayer (37:26)

the loss of what that feels like, you know, the so -called ego death to die the little death so that we can return and live with greater hope or something like that. ⁓ so, know, I don’t, I thought I understood me. thought I understood how the mind worked. And then I altered my mind in a profound way with a psychedelic substance and realized that I didn’t really know much before. Not that psychedelics have now made me enlightened far from it.

Steve Thayer (37:56)

⁓ but I think if we’re trying to investigate realities that are current tools, empirical or otherwise can’t touch very well, then it makes sense to use different tools. And so I don’t know exactly what’s going on metaphysically or physically when we’re taking psychedelics. have a little bit of info on the physical side. now with a of the cool neuroscience being done.

Steve Thayer (38:22)

But I can tell you what it feels like and what a lot of my clients say it feels like. It feels like that, you know, the brain is a receiver and the channel has been changed and you get access to a different reality that feels more real than the one you live in day to day. So to say that it’s just a drug experience, I think is a little short sighted and naive. And so from a philosophical perspective, when we’re investigating the big questions, why are we here? Where are we going afterward? If anywhere, what does it mean to live a virtuous life? How should we relate to one another?

Steve Thayer (38:52)

then psychedelics can, as the term implies, manifest what is in the mind in a way that is novel and interesting. So I have found psychedelics, of course, in a psychotherapeutic context to be incredibly helpful, but in an existential meaning -making, like we talked about before, spiritual, but even philosophical contexts, a powerful tool for investigating those perhaps ultimately unanswerable questions.

Sam Believ (39:18)

Yeah, as you say, a powerful tool. It’s kind of, think Stan Grof said that psychedelics are for the mind, what the telescope was for the astronomy, if I’m not mistaken. So it’s like, yeah, of course, if you never had a telescope, you look at the star and you kind of know where your stars are in your, but then obviously with the telescope, you can see so much more. it’s kind of knowing that you don’t know is ⁓ already a good step to kind of getting into the bigger box.

Sam Believ (39:19)

Yeah, as you say, a powerful tool. It’s kind of, think Stan Grof said that psychedelics are for the mind, what the telescope was for the astronomy, if I’m not mistaken. So it’s like, yeah, of course, if you never had a telescope, you look at the star and you kind of know where your stars are in your, but then obviously with the telescope, you can see so much more. it’s kind of knowing that you don’t know ⁓ is already a good step to kind of getting into the bigger box.

Steve Thayer (39:29)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (39:48)

⁓ interesting when you said ⁓ We’re talking about the perspective change and like changing the channel. I remember ⁓ after one of the ios experiences where With my eyes open I could see visions of like altered reality and flows of energy and stuff like that So I had I had a thought maybe an experiment and you do you you perform studies? So maybe it can be an idea for you My question was on a strong psychedelic experience when you have ⁓

Sam Believ (39:48)

⁓ interesting when you said We’re talking about the perspective change and like changing the channel. I remember ⁓ after one of the I was experiences where With my eyes open I could see visions of like altered reality and flows of energy and stuff like that So I had I had a thought maybe an experiment and you do you you perform studies? So maybe it can be an idea for you My question was on a strong psychic experience when you have ⁓

Sam Believ (40:14)

when your visions, your psychedelic visions are intertwined with the reality and it almost feels like you see what you normally are not able to perceive. It’s kind of like enhanced vision. My question would be if you would have a strong psychedelic experience in a VR goggles, would you be still, would the reality still be altered? And then if it wouldn’t be, then it would be a good way to prove that.

Sam Believ (40:15)

when your visions, your psychedelic visions are intertwined with the reality and it almost feels like you see what you normally are not able to perceive. It’s kind of like enhanced vision. My question would be if you would have a strong psychedelic experience in a VR goggles, would you be still, would the reality still be altered? And then if it wouldn’t be, then it would be a good way to prove that.

Sam Believ (40:40)

What you’re seeing actually exists is just you don’t have the ability to see it, but I don’t know if it makes any sense.

Sam Believ (40:40)

What you’re seeing actually exists is just you don’t have the ability to see it, but I don’t know if it makes any sense.

Steve Thayer (40:46)

That’d be a fun study to run. You know, I think I’m not a neuroscientist, but from the little bit of neurophysiology that I know with respect to psychedelics, think some certain psychedelics, know, they create this phenomenon known as synesthesia where this combination synthesis between senses. So people will see sounds and they’ll hear colors and there’s interesting activation in the regions of the brain involved with sight.

Steve Thayer (41:14)

And then in combination with the synesthetic effect and the neuroplasticity that it causes that maybe is a neurological explanation for why people see visions. And I imagine that if that’s the case, it would still be present with VR goggles on. But I also just, when I am having fun thinking about this, I like to think, you know, there are light spectrums that the human eye can’t pick up on, but it doesn’t mean that they aren’t there like ultraviolet light, for example, or those there’s, you know, our, hearts and other organ systems give off an electromagnetic field that

Steve Thayer (41:43)

we aren’t necessarily conscious of, but we feel certain ways in the presence of other people. And it might be a subtle, you know, micro expressions and things like that, but it might be their scent. might be the electromagnetic field that they’re giving off. And there are people that seem to have extra sensory perception and an intuition that is unexplainable. And maybe this is all explained by cognitive biases and limitations of our minds to grasp reality. But again, as a person who’s

Steve Thayer (42:09)

A PhD social scientist, I have a love and a fidelity to the scientific method, but also I’m leaving a ton of room for the unexplainable, right? There’s still so much about reality that we don’t understand. And maybe psychedelics as a channel changer give us access to certain, I don’t know, ⁓ I was about to say quantum field. I don’t want to piss off the physicists, but like certain realities that are normal thinking don’t have access to.

Steve Thayer (42:37)

So that’s about as woo -woo as I get, Sam, just me sort of having reverence for the mystery.

Sam Believ (42:39)

Mm -hmm.

Sam Believ (42:39)

Mm -hmm.

Sam Believ (42:43)

Well, woo woo ⁓ or not, ⁓ and you mentioned the word quantum, know, even in the physics itself, ⁓ the deeper we go into the physics, the more it starts to sound like woo woo. You know, there’s the electronics here, but it’s also here. Like, what do you mean? You know, and ⁓ all those newer kind of experiments that they’re doing, it’s kind of like we’re almost going full circle where science is connecting with ⁓

Sam Believ (42:43)

Well, woo woo ⁓ or not, ⁓ and you mentioned the word quantum, know, even in the physics itself, ⁓ the deeper we go into the physics, the more it starts to sound like woo woo. You know, there’s the electronics here, but it’s also here. Like, what do you mean? You know, and ⁓ all those newer kind of experiments that they’re doing, it’s kind of like we’re almost going full circle where science is connecting with ⁓

Steve Thayer (42:58)

Yeah.

Steve Thayer (43:02)

Mm

Sam Believ (43:12)

spirituality again and then especially it has to happen in a psychological field because you know where is ⁓ what is our conscious where is it coming from you know quantum computers and all that stuff so I have no answers for that I have just curiosity and I hopefully one day somebody will come on this podcast and explain to me you know exactly what happens and you mentioned synesthesia it’s a

Sam Believ (43:12)

spirituality again and then especially it has to happen in a psychological field because you know where is ⁓ what is our conscious where is it coming from you know quantum computers and all that stuff so I have no answers for that I have ⁓ just curiosity and I hopefully one day somebody will come on this podcast and explain to me you know exactly what happens and you mentioned synesthesia it’s a

Sam Believ (43:40)

a really real thing. One of my first ayahuasca experiences, I could see music. It was almost, it almost looked like, you know, those old windows ⁓ media players. I don’t know if you’re a mad guy, but like equalizer dancing. Like I could see that with my eyes closed together with the music. But interestingly enough, I could also see where the shaman was anytime in the ceremonies, like this blob of light with my eyes closed. And I don’t know, maybe it’s ⁓

Sam Believ (43:41)

a really real thing. One of my first ayahuasca experiences, I could see music. It was almost, it almost looked like, you know, those old windows ⁓ media players. I don’t know if you’re a mad guy, but like equalizer dancing. Like I could see that with my eyes closed together with the music. But interestingly enough, I could also see where the shaman was anytime in the ceremonies, like this blob of light with my eyes closed. And I don’t know, maybe it’s ⁓

Steve Thayer (43:53)

Yeah.

Steve Thayer (43:56)

I’m hang up.

Sam Believ (44:09)

my mind, maybe whatever, but anytime I would open my eyes to check, was pretty accurate. that’s another thing we could maybe run ⁓ a study on. ⁓ Yeah, speaking about podcasts and guests, know you also have a podcast yourself. So ⁓ why did you start a podcast?

Sam Believ (44:09)

my mind, maybe whatever, but anytime I would open my eyes to check, was pretty accurate. that’s another thing we could maybe run ⁓ a study on. ⁓ Yeah, speaking about podcasts and guests, know you also have a podcast yourself. So ⁓ why did you start a podcast?

Steve Thayer (44:30)

Hmm. Yeah. We’ve been doing psychedelic therapy frontiers for around three years now, almost 170 episodes. ⁓ we started it. My co -host and I, Dr. Reed Robinson, ⁓ started it because we both have a passion for education, for free access to good information. And we recognize that there were a lot of good, there were a few really good podcasts in the psychedelic space at the time when we started.

Steve Thayer (45:00)

We just wanted to add our voice and have an excuse to talk to cool people in this industry and to do a deep dive on topics that were interesting to us and then potentially share that with people who might find it interesting. I myself have benefited a lot from podcasts, been listening to podcasts for many, many years. They have been a source of continuing education and exploration and connection.

Steve Thayer (45:27)

with other people interested in similar things for me. And so I kind of wanted to pay that forward. Also as a therapist, I help one person at a time generally, unless I’m facilitating a group where I get to go really deep. And I really love that. I love depth. love vulnerability. I love the safety that can be created with vulnerability and the growth that comes out of that. But I also wanted to sort of, I guess, cast the net a little bit wider and help as many people as I could.

Steve Thayer (45:56)

from an educational perspective. Both my parents were educators and so I love to teach and I love to share. So those were some of the primary motivations for starting a podcast. It was also just kind of an experiment. and I both, like I said, have really enjoyed podcasts and had thought for many years about starting one, just didn’t know what to talk about. And here I was developing my… ⁓

Steve Thayer (46:22)

pivoting my career towards psychedelics and teaching other therapists at the time about ketamine assisted therapy. And I wanted an excuse to develop even further. And as many people who are listening know, that to teach something is to learn it on a different level. So those are some of our primary motives. And we’ve gotten to talk to some really cool, really interesting people. The majority of our episodes are just me and Reed having a conversation about

Steve Thayer (46:48)

A mental health topic, typically psychedelic related, but not always, but yeah, we’ve had the honor to interview some really fun folks.

Sam Believ (46:55)

Yeah, podcasts is a great way to meet cool people. you know, I would probably not otherwise be talking to you right now. And I’ve checked your podcast out as well. I really liked your episode on ayahuasca. I think it was really informed one ⁓ with a lot of facts and like scientific knowledge. So that’s a really good one for those who listening. Definitely go check it out. Psychedelic Frontiers podcast, right?

Sam Believ (46:56)

Yeah, podcasts is a great way to meet cool people. you know, I would probably not otherwise be talking to you right now. And I’ve checked your podcast out as well. I really liked your episode on ayahuasca. I think it was really informed one with a lot of facts and like scientific knowledge. So that’s a really good one for those who listening. Definitely go check it out. Psychedelic Frontiers podcast, right?

Steve Thayer (47:24)

psychedelic therapy frontiers. Yeah.

Sam Believ (47:25)

psychedelic therapy frontiers. ⁓ Check out the episode on the ayahuasca. ⁓ Speaking of your podcast, like out of the guests that you had, I know it’s a lot of just you talking to read, but also what’s the most, I don’t know, like memorable guest you had?

Sam Believ (47:26)

Psychedelic Therapy Frontiers. ⁓ Check out the episode on the ayahuasca. ⁓ Speaking of your podcast, out of the guests that you had, I ⁓ know it’s a lot of just you talking to read, but also what’s the most memorable guest you had?

Steve Thayer (47:48)

Hmm. We’ve had a lot of memorable ones. You know, I, the interview with Chris Beish, the author of LSD in the mind of the universe was, ⁓ really, really cool. mean, I read his book and it struck me on a deep level. Here was this, you know, professor philosopher who over the course of decades did 70 plus high dose LSD journeys facilitated by his wife in a very systematic way.

Steve Thayer (48:19)

And it was like he was taking a core sample of the universe. This guy just had the most amazing insights ⁓ and suffering. Like he just went through these really difficult experiences to glean these insights. And so that one was really fascinating. ⁓ The one with Dick Schwartz, Richard Schwartz, the pioneer behind internal family systems therapy or IFS was a delight. and I both enjoy that particular therapeutic modality.

Steve Thayer (48:47)

internal family systems and find that it pairs well with psychedelics. We got to interview Rick Doblin, who’s before the FDA ruling and Rick’s an inspiring character, a maverick, know, just tireless in his efforts to bring psychedelics, MDMA in particular, to the masses. We got to interview Gould Dolan, who’s a researcher that’s done some of the more fascinating research on psychedelics and neuroplasticity. And from her, we get these

Steve Thayer (49:16)

this idea around critical windows that where psychedelics sort of reopen these learning windows neurologically that tend to close as we develop. And that might be potentially one of the explanations for why they can help people change where other things haven’t been able to. ⁓ Yeah, those are the ones that float to the top of my mind. We’ve been able to talk to so many cool people.

Steve Thayer (49:44)

⁓ what’s that guy? DMT the spirit molecule.

Steve Thayer (49:50)

That’s funny that I’m forgetting his name. He was on Joe Rogan and stuff.

Sam Believ (49:59)

don’t have an assistant like Joe Rogan does. It’s like bring Jimmy. Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. I just found that I was just Googling it as well. Rick Strassman. ⁓ got lots of good, you got lots of cool guests. ⁓ that’s yeah, that’s once again, the benefit of running a podcast and, ⁓ you know, you yourself, obviously as you interview people, you learn a lot and, ⁓

Sam Believ (50:00)

don’t have an assistant like Joe Rogan does. It’s like ⁓ bring Jimmy. Yeah. Yeah. I just found that I was just Googling it as well. Rick Strassman. ⁓ got lots of good, you got lots of cool guests. ⁓ that’s yeah, that’s once again, the benefit of running a podcast and, ⁓ you know, you yourself, obviously as you interview people, you learn a lot and, ⁓

Steve Thayer (50:03)

I know right? We can ask Jamie to pull it up. Rick Strassman. There we go.

Steve Thayer (50:10)

There you go.

Sam Believ (50:27)

in your work, you also learn a lot. And I know you talk a lot about the importance of the self -growth for facilitators, for ⁓ the ⁓ therapists themselves. Can you talk a little bit about that with us?

Sam Believ (50:28)

in your work you also learn a lot and I know you talk a lot about the importance of the self -growth for facilitators, for ⁓ the ⁓ therapists themselves. Can you talk a little bit about that with us?

Steve Thayer (50:42)

Yeah. You know, if you choose to hold space for other people when they’re altering their consciousness in this very vulnerable way, then you have a certain ethical responsibility to be able to hold that space in a safe and integrous way. So, you know, in order to do that, I think one needs thorough training, but one also needs to make sure that they’re taking good care of themselves because

Steve Thayer (51:12)

you know, you are part of the setting. We talk a lot of in psychedelic therapy about set and setting or the mindset and the setting in which you’re doing the psychedelic medicine. And, ⁓ as a spaceholder or a facilitator or a guide or a therapist, you are a very important part of that setting. So if you’re bringing, as one of my supervisors would say, your shit into the room, ⁓ then that’s going to, that potentially can harm other people or at least interfere with their process.

Steve Thayer (51:42)

So this isn’t to say you need to be a perfected enlightened being in order to do this work, but you should be relatively self -aware so that when something gets triggered in you, you can discern is this my stuff? And do I just need to manage this so I can be here for this person? Or is this being elicited from me and it might be good data that I can help this person with? You know, is it more about the things they elicit because of the way they move through the world?

Steve Thayer (52:10)

⁓ and less about my particular, you know, demons, so to speak in the therapy world, we call that, this dance between transference and counter transference. as the client transferring onto us, a dynamic that is alive in their, in their life, maybe from their childhood and that we can work with and is, is, know, some, a good opportunity to create change, or is it counter transference mean that we are transforming transferring, excuse me, something onto them from our lives. And if unacknowledged, that can be really damaging.

Steve Thayer (52:41)

So those are some reasons why it’s important to do self -development work. think also, you know, when we teach, when I’ve taught psychedelic assisted therapy to others, inevitably the question comes up, should guides, therapists, facilitators have experience with the medicine that they’re working with? The general consensus from the people that I’ve talked to is it makes sense, right? Although, and this might be a controversial take, I don’t think it’s…

Steve Thayer (53:07)

For some medicines, it’s absolutely necessary in order to hold safe space at the very least that you have that experience. I think it’s tremendously helpful. I like to think of it in terms of like a wilderness survival guide. If I’m going into the wilderness with a survival guide, I mean, I would like to know that that survival guide has been in that wilderness, but if they haven’t, I want to at least know they’ve been in a wilderness and they’ve had a chance to practice their wilderness survival skills to the level that they are an expert.

Steve Thayer (53:37)

I recently read this book called the lion trackers guide to life by Boyd Vardy. And in there, he talks about, learning how to track in Africa, how to track lions and his teacher saying when they lost the lions track, ⁓ you know, he’s asking him, well, what do we do? We’ve lost the track. And his teacher says something like, well, I don’t know where we’re going, but I know exactly how to get there. And I think that’s a great metaphor for.

Steve Thayer (54:04)

facilitating or helping other people through psychedelic experience. Because just because you’ve had a particular experience doesn’t mean they’re going to have that same experience. That’s, think young facilitators or inexperienced facilitators are in danger of making that assumption. Like, I’ve done ayahuasca. know what you’re experiencing. The hell you do. Like you, you might know what it’s like to, you know, be in distress or to, you know, communicate with entities, et cetera, et cetera. But you don’t know what it’s like for them. So you don’t know where they’re going.

Steve Thayer (54:31)

But if you have good facilitation skills, good therapy skills, you might know how to get there, meaning I’m gonna provide safety and support. Depending on the kind of therapy you’re doing, I’m gonna direct them inward. I’m gonna remind them to breathe, those kinds of things. So important to do your own work and important to get good training too.

Sam Believ (54:49)

Yeah, that’s very true. As somebody who, I mean, I kind of stopped counting, but probably around 100 ceremonies of ayahuasca and never having same experience twice, I can truly attest to the fact that the moment you feel like you know it is the moment that probably can have a very difficult experience and it will be shown to you that you only know that you don’t know. But on the opposite spectrum of this, what would you tell someone

Sam Believ (54:50)

Yeah, that’s very true. As somebody who, I mean, I kind of stopped counting, but probably around 100 ceremonies of ayahuasca and never having same experience twice, I can truly attest to the fact that the moment you feel like you know it is the moment that probably can have a very difficult experience and it will be shown to you that you only know that you don’t know. But on the opposite spectrum of this, what would you tell someone

Steve Thayer (55:02)

Hmm.

Sam Believ (55:20)

who did all the necessary training and they’re trying to work in the psychedelic field, but it is a new field. even there is not this legacy 200 -year university program you can attend. And a lot of people have to choose whether they ground themselves in an indigenous tradition or more traditional psychology training.

Sam Believ (55:20)

who’s, you know, they did all the necessary training and they’re trying to work in a psychedelic field, but it is a new field. even, you know, there is not this legacy 200 year university program you can attend. And a lot of people have to choose whether they ground themselves in a indigenous tradition or in more traditional psychology training.

Sam Believ (55:46)

But let’s say somebody’s working that feeling they might be feeling imposter syndrome. What is your opinion on that?

Sam Believ (55:47)

And let’s say somebody’s working that feel and they might be feeling imposter syndrome. What is your opinion on that?

Steve Thayer (55:54)

Yeah. You know, imposter syndrome or imposter feelings, they can be good data. Meaning that, you know, maybe we don’t want to totally dismiss those feelings as they come up because they might be indicative of, ⁓ I actually, I don’t feel as confident as I would like to feel. Maybe I need more training. Maybe I need more experience, but certainly we’ve, we’ve known people are maybe experienced ourselves.

Steve Thayer (56:22)

in situations where we do have a lot of experience and we do have a lot of training yet we still feel like an imposter. So at some point moving forward in the space with that fear on board is indicated, right? It’s not that the first time after getting thoroughly trained, I facilitated like a ketamine assisted therapy experience. I was a hundred percent confident, but I was confident enough and had the support of my

Steve Thayer (56:50)

community of practice and my teachers and my supervisors that I felt okay about moving forward, even though I was feeling a little afraid and not a hundred percent confident. So, ⁓ yes, sometimes imposter syndrome is good data and it implies that we need to get more training and support. And then sometimes it’s one of those stories, right? One of those stories coming from a part that, ⁓ part of our psyche that doesn’t want us to fail and it would never be satisfied no matter how much preparation, ⁓

Steve Thayer (57:20)

preparation we do or is afraid of being judged, you know, et cetera, et But I think having a community of practice is really important. Getting support, accountability, supervision, education. And because as you know, a lot of people who do this work, they’re doing it in the so -called underground because it’s not legal, some of these medicines. And that can be a really isolating place because they feel they have to be clandestine so they don’t get in trouble.

Steve Thayer (57:50)

They got to remain private and then it’s hard to get the kind of support that I get to enjoy working in a clinic, working with colleagues, doing the podcast, interacting with folks like you, you know, doing kind of an assisted therapy. So community of practice is important too.

Sam Believ (58:09)

Yeah, I ⁓ choose a facilitator with imposter syndrome over anyone, you know, over the, ⁓ I had that was once and now I’m a shaman kind of person any day. So there’s like those two extreme and it’s kind of would be nice to find the balance, but I can imagine as a head of training in numinous, you interact with a lot of people that are on the path to become facilitators. And so ⁓

Sam Believ (58:09)

Yeah, I ⁓ choose a facilitator with imposter syndrome over anyone, you know, over the, ⁓ I had that was once and now I’m a shaman kind of person any day. So there’s like those two extreme and it’s kind of would be nice to find the balance, but I can imagine as a head of training in numinous, you interact with a lot of people that are on the path to become facilitators. And so ⁓

Steve Thayer (58:21)

Right.

Sam Believ (58:39)

how first of all, like how does it make you feel that potentially, you you’re you’re being a part of creating this ⁓ population of people that will then interact with more people kind of creating that chain chain effect and and also like what would you what would your message be to somebody who let’s say somebody who is ⁓ has a psychology background and they want to switch to doing more psychedelics in their practice.

Sam Believ (58:39)

how first of all, like how does it make you feel that potentially, you you’re you’re being a part of creating this ⁓ population of people that will then interact with more people kind of creating that chain chain effect and and also like what would you what would your message be to somebody who let’s say somebody who is ⁓ has a psychology background and they want to switch to doing more psychedelics in their practice.

Steve Thayer (59:09)

Yeah. So, you know, I’m very humbled by the idea that, ⁓ I wouldn’t have an influence in somebody that’s trying to learn these skills. ⁓ it’s humbling also in the sense that, ⁓ I take it really seriously, right? It’s a responsibility. If people listen to my podcast and they think of me as some kind of authority, a ⁓ that intimidates the hell out of me. Cause I, I have my own version of imposter syndrome and B it inspires me, right? It inspires me to make sure that

Steve Thayer (59:37)

The information I’m giving is well thought out, well researched in context. ⁓ so it’s an honor to be able to teach other people. And it’s, it’s also why I do it. really hope that in my own limited way, I can, I can help people pay attention to the things that are important and in their efforts to become, to work with psychedelics in whatever capacity they work with them.

Steve Thayer (60:07)

The things that I’ve noticed are important. The things that I’ve learned are important from people with more experience than me. And inevitably I’ll make mistakes. I’m trying to make compassionate space for those mistakes. But for people who are interested and they want to get involved, know, there, there, there are a couple of places I like to point people. Certainly the training program that we do at numinous, I’m a little bit biased toward cause I’m the lead instructor for numinous, but we have an entire, education pathway.

Steve Thayer (60:36)

where people can take a variety of courses, all designed to help them feel prepared to work with psychedelic medicine. And then there are other communities like psychedelic grad is one I like to point people to. It’s an online community. And if you just Google psychedelic grad, you’ll find it for people who are students or people who are interested in getting involved professionally in psychedelics, lot of great resources in a community there where you can share notes and interact.

Steve Thayer (61:06)

There are some, I’m not, you know, off the top of my head, couldn’t list them, but there are some programs now that are, ⁓ you know, where you can get training in psychotherapy. And, ⁓ there’s also a psychedelic component. think those types of organizations are going to be, or training programs are going to be more available as the research progresses. Certainly if MDMA or psilocybin gets FDA approved as a medicine, we’re going to need a lot of good profet well -trained professionals. So think programs will pop up.

Steve Thayer (61:36)

But go out there and get training and don’t be alone. Right? You got podcasts like yours, other, lot of really great training programs like the one at psychedelics today, the vital program is really good. ⁓ you know, third wave Paul Austin’s organization has a lot of good education, training and community. yeah, just a lot of great education and training out there. So let your curiosity lead you and be insatiable. Get as much information as you can.

Sam Believ (62:02)

Very good recommendations. ⁓ Steve, it was a pleasure having you on the podcast. think it’s time for us to wrap up. So anything else you might want to tell to the audience and then ⁓ where can they find you or where can they learn more about you?

Sam Believ (62:03)

Very good recommendations. ⁓ Steve, it was a pleasure having you on the podcast. think it’s time for us to wrap up. So anything else you might want to tell to the audience and then ⁓ where can they find you or where can they learn more about you?

Steve Thayer (62:23)

Yeah, Sam, I really appreciate the opportunity. Thank you for inviting me on. If people want to learn more about me, they can go to my website, drstevetheyerd .com. For better or worse, I’m on Instagram. I don’t post a whole lot these days, but you can find me on Instagram. tend to put clips from the podcast on there. Of course, please listen to the podcast. If you’re interested in mental health, generally in psychedelic assisted therapy specifically, that’s psychedelic therapy frontiers on all podcast platforms and on YouTube.

Steve Thayer (62:53)

And then, yeah, if you’re interested in our clinical trial research or in our training, you can go to numinous .com forward slash training for training or forward slash research for our clinical trial.

Sam Believ (63:06)

Thank you, Steve. Yeah, ⁓ definitely guys, check out Steve and the podcast. It’s a lot of fun. It’s a really good ⁓ podcast. There’s not many good psychedelic related podcasts and yours is definitely one of them. And you’ve been listening to Ayahuasca podcast. As always, we do host Sambaliyev and I hope you enjoyed this episode.

Sam Believ (63:06)

Thank you, Steve. Yeah, ⁓ definitely guys, check out Steve and the podcast. It’s a lot of fun. It’s a ⁓ really good podcast. There’s not many good psychedelic related podcasts and yours is definitely one of them. And you’ve been listening to Ayahuasca podcast. As always, we do host Sambaliyev and I hope you enjoyed this episode.

Sam Believ (63:32)

Okay, I really hope ⁓ the first part has been uploaded. It ⁓ would suck if we lose the first half of the episode. ⁓ Thank you, Steve. ⁓ Good stuff. So yeah, as I mentioned in the beginning, ⁓ if you ever wanna head down here to Colombia and experience Colombian ayahuasca, which is called Jahe, actually it’s slightly different than the Peruvian one because the DMT… ⁓

Sam Believ (64:00)

Component is from a different plan and then in Peru. It’s chakruna and here. It’s Chagra panga ⁓ some people say it’s stronger some people say it’s you know, I’ve heard all kinds of opinions, but Probably interesting and you invited to to my retreat totally free of charge whenever you want to come ⁓ So if you’re ever in Colombia or want to you know the trip and Yeah, I’m gonna

Sam Believ (64:27)

⁓ I’m gonna send, I don’t know if we’re connected on, because I have an Instagram podcast for ⁓ Instagram account for the podcast itself. What was your Instagram? Dr. Steve here. I’m gonna send you an invite there as well. cause when I’m gonna post a short snippet, I’m gonna tag you. So make sure you find it. might ⁓ be somewhere in a spam. Instagram has been.

Sam Believ (64:54)

Really not nice to us recently. Like we had our main profile was disabled because they said we’re promoting drugs, which is really hard. But I do have my personal one still and the one for the podcast.

Sam Believ (65:24)

Yeah, my, I think what caused it for us was I had one very funny video where I’m like, levitating a piece of paper and ⁓ it went kind of like semi -viral. So I did a promotion on it to get more people to see it. And I think when you’re in that space, there’s a lot of people that are gonna hate you and they start reporting you. And if you get enough reports, then is when they kind of ban you. So that’s a hard lesson learned, but.

Sam Believ (65:51)

know, life keeps going on, so I’m just gonna move forward. ⁓

Sam Believ (66:02)

⁓ Let me ⁓

Sam Believ (66:10)

recordings yeah it says I’m 99 % finished

Sam Believ (66:20)

says calculating remaining time but I know that ⁓ if we if I leave it open it’s gonna it’s gonna upload you use Riverside as well for your recordings

Sam Believ (66:35)

Yeah. I wonder what happened with the internet because normally we have like 500 megabits for here for a Colombian countryside that’s extremely fast, but some kind of drop. ⁓ Also, ⁓ do you, because you mentioned like your guests in your podcast, is there anyone that comes to mind that I should reach out to an interview? Somebody that, you know, ⁓ great guests, but also maybe has anything to do with ayahuasca, so more

Sam Believ (67:04)

more relevant than anyone comes to mind.

Sam Believ (67:17)

⁓ Not yet, no. ⁓ I did reach out to the Heroic Hearts people once, offering them my retreat, because we’re obviously more budget than most. But yeah, it’s an interesting idea. I have a lot of episodes on PTSD and veterans.

Sam Believ (67:53)

I’ll try and try and reach out to her. ⁓ And yeah, if you, if you ever want to talk about Colombian, I was specifically, or ⁓ just, think you only have one episode on iOS and it’s mostly from like scientific perspective. You want to talk more about like the experiences and the people and ⁓ from more facilitation perspective and like retreat side, side of things. I’m, I would be, I would more than love to, to hop on. I also like to go on podcasts. I think I’ve.

Sam Believ (68:22)

I 50 episodes on my own podcast and I have probably 15 when I just go on different people’s podcasts to talk about ayahuasca and my story and stuff like that.

Sam Believ (68:48)

⁓ Also the fact that a lot of people don’t know but ayahuasca was kind of popularized in Colombia like a lot of people don’t know that ⁓ Why am I blanking out on his name the ethnobotanist the famous ethnobotanist that Kind of put ayahuasca on the map Richard Evans Schultes that he actually he was traveling in Colombia when it was happening and McKenna brothers also came to Colombia’s just that

Sam Believ (69:16)

in the 80s and 90s when the narcos happened and the ayahuasca kind of popularized so all the people went to Peru but in reality it’s not it’s it’s almost as traditional as in Peru if not even more traditional there are at least five tribes here that work with ayahuasca and there are like certain benefits because because it was overlooked there’s kind of less psychedelic tourism and kind of negative aspects of it so i don’t know but i would

Sam Believ (69:45)

would love to so and once again ⁓ definitely come over I know I know you drink ayahuasca or or or your co -host but would love to host you we had we had some good experiences so far the way we do it is obviously you come totally free of charge but what I do expect in return is if you can do like one hour lecture or something like that just to like teach people something for example ⁓ Joshua Solvay the ⁓

Sam Believ (70:13)

somatic experiencing guy came and he he taught our our team about somatic experience. It was just like short snippet but it feels like we’re we’re bringing in people that like bring in knowledge and kind of like it feels like growth to me so I kind of I kind of love love this kind of collaboration so

Sam Believ (70:36)

⁓ I will send you all the info.

Sam Believ (70:40)

Cool, Steve. Have a great day and enjoy the work. ⁓

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with Joe Vaughan, a UK-based comedian, writer, and advocate for psychedelic medicine legalization. Joe shares his journey into psychedelics, driven by witnessing the transformative power of psilocybin on a close friend. Together, they discuss the potential of psychedelics for mental health, addiction recovery, and the challenges of pushing for legalization in the UK.

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats, go to http://www.lawayra.com.

Find more about Joe Vaughan at Twitter: @joevaughancomedy.

Transcript

Sam Believ: You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast.com.

Joe Vaughan: Politics follows Public opinion and not the other way around. Politics was 30 years behind public opinion when it came to changing things. So things like, homosexuality, things like women having, certain rights, certain things that we look at now and go that’s as crazy that was legal.

Now with modern media. Things are much more accelerated. So if public opinion starts to move and says we need a fresh look at psilocybin, we need to look at some of these compounds and look at, what they can do. ’cause the data isn’t there. Academics tell me the data’s not there.

We can have people having personal experiences and anecdotal evidence and all the rest of it, but. What they’re saying to me is that the data’s not there. The policy makers won’t change unless the data’s there, but then the data won’t be there unless the public opinion’s there and the people are doing it to create the data.

Sam Believ: In this episode of ayahuasca podcast.com, I have a conversation with Joe Vaughan. We talk about legalization of psilocybin in the uk, Joe’s Ayahuasca experiences. We talk about different ayahuasca traditions. Talk about him living in a transporting era and how psychedelics could have helped talk about mental health crisis and so much more.

Enjoy this episode. This episode is sponsored by Laira Ayahuasca Retreat. At Laira, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity. Laira connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you. Hi guys, and welcome to Iowa Podcast, as always, with you, the host. And today I am interviewing Joe Vogan Vaughn.

Joe Vaughn. Yeah, Vaughn. Joe Vaughn is a UK based comedian writer, an advocate for psychedelic medicine legalization. After witnessing psilocybin transform his friend’s life, he became. A prominent voice in the thank you plant medicines movement working to reduce stigma around plant medicine in the uk specifically.

Joe, we welcome to the show. It’s great to be here. Joe. Before we begin talking about psychedelics and such, tell us a little about yourself and how did you find yourself in that line of work?

Joe Vaughan: I think I have to go back quite a few generations, is that, or originally my grandfather came from Nigeria to Scotland in the nineties, just after the second World War.

So that, that had a, huge impact on kinda my life growing up in Scotland because there were not many, many black people in Scotland at that particular time. So I kinda grew up in a, in an environment which was pretty harsh, pretty racist fair, fairly tough kind of environment in a port town called Leith.

I dunno if you’ve heard of train spotting the book in the film, but Irving Welsh. But that, that, that is my experience. That is my life. Reading that book is like literally someone writing New York, the narrative of your own story, right?

I had always had, I had a kinda slightly different perspective on life because of my Nigerian family. ‘Cause it was quite unusual and a kind of unique situation. I never knew my granddad, but my mother is obviously of mixed parentage which was, as I say, very unusual in Scotland.

So I always felt kinda, simultaneously, I insider, but I had a kinda slightly outsider’s view of things and a kind of wider kind of perspective because of my, ’cause of my family upbringing. As I say, I grew up in, in a, in Scotland, in Leith in the 1970s, 1980s, and peak kinda transporting era kinda dysfunction.

Grew up around a lot of, drug taking and violence and alcoholism, there was some, there were some downsides as well, but the yeah, it was a kind of quite an interesting environment to grow up in. Follow, following that kinda upbringing.

I ended up moving to England where I went to university and studied and then moved around a bit. I lived in Paris for a while and then went, lived in West Africa for a while and, had a, had a kind of, a job which involved a lot of traveling. And yeah, my, my kinda life has been a sort of a kind of an exploration of kind of stuff.

I always felt like I wanted to just go and. See stuff, do cool things and see stuff was my objective and I’ve largely achieved that.

Sam Believ: So in, in the intro I mentioned that your friend’s story and recovery through psilocybin was a big inspiration for you.

Can you maybe tell us that story?

Joe Vaughan: The, where I used to live in Edinburgh, in Letha was a, there was a part of the local park literally where we all played and grew up as kids. And every September, we would see these kind of people dressed slightly differently, kinda wandering around, like kinda looking at the ground.

And I didn’t realize they were actually picking the kinda naturally occurring, psilocybin, liberty, cat mushrooms that grow in the uk. But there was a field in, in the, the part of Edinburgh and least where I grew up, there was a field of the, where magic mushrooms would grow, so we’d see people picking them.

So it was that was my sort of first not direct experience of psilocybin but over the years of, traveling and going to, going to Amsterdam, psilocybin mushrooms were legal. Then you could buy them in shops in Amsterdam.

And so when you went to Amsterdam for a weekend, you would take psilocybin mushrooms legally not the best environment, not the best setting settings got to be said. But that was just kind part of what you did when you went to Amsterdam for the weekend.

So there’s a friend, a very good friend of mine who I met in England when I went to university, who’d had a very difficult life. He’d been in, in children’s homes. He grew up around violence and neglect. And he’d become a drug addict. An intravenous, drug addict a speed.

First of all, it was through speeds, amphetamines, and then through an heroin, and ultimately through methadone. He’d been on methadone for maybe 20 years. Hard, hardcore, a drug addict. And he’d never been out of the UK ever. He’d never had a passport. He’d never been out of the uk.

He, he was practically destitute. He was living on the streets more or less. And I thought I need to do something here. So I thought I’m gonna get him a passport. I’m gonna get him his passport. And we’re gonna go somewhere, we’re gonna go out of the country somewhere. He’d never been out of the uk, never had a passport, nothing.

So we went to Amsterdam and we had a, an experience with psilocybin mushrooms. And it was one of those kind of, quite a euphoric kind of evening, one of those evenings on psilocybin mushrooms, not, I sit alone in the dark, deep introspection. More of a, kind of a.

A quite hedonistic, quite an enjoyable evening of hilarity and big emotions and, a lot of laughing and a lot of, a lot of kind of en enjoyment. And after that experience my friend, I might get emotional talking about this ’cause he, because, he is no longer with us, but he he wrote me a letter to say that, that evening had basically transformed his life.

And that he found a new. Purpose. And he found a new enjoyment, and he found a new motivation and, to be alive. And following that he started to, he’d always had an interest in music. He’s a punk original. An original punk or an oy boy as he called himself.

And so he, he started write writing music. He started writing songs and performing songs. And performing at festivals. Not, he wasn’t headlining at Glastonbury, but he was performing in festivals, his music that he’d written and he was performing. And he, his life just went in a completely different trajectory from the kind of practically homeless, destitute, almost, literally dying.

He had a very, enjoyable kind of next say 10 years. Unfortunately he did pass away in the end through, the alcoholism and he’d been on, he’d been on methadone for, as I say, a very long time. And eventually his liver did pack up. But it, there was enough in that experience for me to go, wait a minute.

There’s something if that can transform his life so fundamentally there’s got to be something in this. And that kinda led, that was about maybe, nearly 20 years ago, I think. I grew up in the 19, late eighties, early nineties, so I was part of a part of the rage scene. Obviously that, that had its own sort of associations with, psychedelics and other recreationals.

But then that was just part of what we did. But, so that was not, that was more kinda hedonistic, but I kinda much more conscious kind of feeling around, around the work. Came to me baby about 20 years ago through my experience with my friend.

Sam Believ: It sounds that. It definitely prolonged his life and probably made his quality of life much higher.

And yeah, with the mushrooms, I’ve had experiences that where it feels less of a ceremony, even when you do it in a ceremonial setting, it feels less of a ceremony sometimes and more of a celebration kinda with the main is being, life is to be enjoyed and there’s a lot to be enjoyed, that positivity.

So I’m a big, I’m a big fan of that medicine as well. I think that. In a perfect world where everything is legal, I see. Like a wellness protocol for an average individual living in the western world, being something like wa ayahuasca ceremony, sorry, Juan Ayahuasca retreat a year. And then maybe one smaller mushroom experience every quarter or so to keep you sane.

And then a lot of integration and a lot of therapy and other modalities like breath work and tapping and you name it. There’s so many now. It’s a beautiful medicine talking about medicines. I know you,

Joe Vaughan: you, yeah. So just say one thing, one thing on that, the Amsterdam experience is quite a cautionary tale because they were selling very high strength mushrooms in shops and people were getting hold of them with no preparation, no understanding, no real kind of sense about what it was that we’re doing, and it was causing a lot of problems.

So that, that kind of. Free for all thing is, as it was in Outstan at the time is probably something that we really want to caution against, because, very clear on this is that, these compounds are, can be so strong, so powerful, so destabilizing that they, they really need to be handled with care so that whole kinda well known.

Kind of process of, you prepare yourself, you, you do the right, preparations understand, you make sure you’re set, setting and intentions are there. You do it with people you trust at a dose level that you can handle. And then you, obviously you need, sometimes people need support on the other side of it as well.

Because, I think, it’s dangerous. Certainly. I would, we’d not necessarily advise that we go back to that situation in Amsterdam where it was a free for all because, it almost delegitimizes the work that we’re trying to do and the fact that we’re trying to legitimize this whole enterprise and in, in a sense, like rebrand it away from.

People getting off their heads in a hedonistic setting and actually, taking this kinda seriously. So I, I’m not, I’m as big an advocate for the dance and the magic of these things as anyone else, but I just would definitely urge caution, when it comes to,

Sam Believ: thank you for adding that.

Definitely thank you for writing that note to it. When I personally speak about mushroom use, I’m talking. Ceremonial use meaning with with some kind of indigenous tradition. But of course there’s also medical use. But in case of recreational use it has to be done very carefully.

Amsterdam is a nice city, but no city should be used for working with medicines except for maybe a microdose. And still, there’s something special about being in the nature and being in a safe container. Both with a sitter or se, preferably several and maybe a ceremonial fire and as you said, preparation, integration, all of the good stuff.

So yeah, definitely not to get people confused, to don’t go ahead and just buy mushrooms and do your stuff. That’s not what we’re talking about. Yeah. It’s not for everyone as well. If you’re, if your mental state is not great and you’re very. Shaky that it can disbalance you even more, especially with I can, I’ve never ever taken psychedelics outside of ceremonial settings, so it’s hard for me to imagine.

But I can see that somebody at the festival or in the city with a lot of people, you can get paranoia and maybe even worse things. But talking about medicine than ceremonial setting, I know you’ve also had some experience with ayahuasca. Can you talk to us a little bit about that and similarities or differences you noticed with your mushroom work?

Joe Vaughan: Sure. So I’ve been fortunate enough to go to Peru three times now. So the first time was at the. Temple of the way of light which is near ITOs in Peru. And that was my first experience of a kind of, ceremonial setting. And yeah it’s hard to really put it into words.

I know, that we always use the words ineffable, and it is in a sense, but I’ll do my best. So when we did, talking about preparation experience and integration, the preparation that we did there was actually very good. They did sit down and explain, you know what, it was good, you know what was gonna happen, how the ceremonies were gonna take place, et cetera.

So I, we felt, fairly strong going in, the diet, diet, preparation, et cetera. Flower baths and meditation, some yoga and stuff. So we were fairly well set. Set up to go into the experience. There was a, there was, there were five tobo healers in the ceremony, probably in a ceremony of about 20 to 25.

See, I’m gonna say, I’ll say max 25. So it was one healer to every five participants. And each heeler would go around, every individual. And sing an eco row to them, and, kinda face to face on the map. So they would have a kinda central eco row that would be sung at the start for the, in the maloka and the space.

And then you’d have an individual like I say, eco by each individual healer. And it’s quite hard to explain to people that, when you’re sitting in the dark kinda feeling, under the influence of, of a powerful medicine. And someone’s kinda singing to you in the dark in a language that you don’t understand, but yet you understand everything that they’re saying to you.

It’s a very strange thing to try and explain to someone. I didn’t have a kind of a traditional kinda psychedelic experience. In, in the, the first sort of, three, three or four, four ceremonies, the five ceremonies in total. The first four ceremonies were very much.

Kind of bodily sensation. No, all bells and whistles, as we say, psychedelic, traditional experience. But in each eco row that was being sung, to me it felt like my kind of my my, my personality myself my, the individual that I am was being kinda rebuilt, very much from a, from the kinda bottom up.

On the first ceremony, it felt like they were singing to my, to the, the kind, the baby me, like the small child meet and like a lullaby, and making it feel safe and secure. And then the second ceremony felt like they were singing to, maybe the kind of 5-year-old me, the, the three to 5-year-old me.

And then the third ceremony, it felt like they were singing to the, they can, each ceremony kinda built on this, on the previous one. In each eco row, even from, all the different healers that were singing to me, it felt like they were singing to that, those kind of neglected, damaged parts of myself.

And quite extraordinary, as I say no, no kind of, visions or nothing extreme in that sense. But I so powerful. There’s an experience. And then in the fifth ceremony there was a bit more kind of a visual thing. But I remember very clearly one of the healers, like singing to me.

And all I was hearing was like, you have conditional love. You have conditional love. You have conditional love. This is what you must remember. It was and it was as clear, it was as clear as if someone was speaking to me in English and saying this to me, but it was being sung in a, in whatever the people language is.

Excuse me, I don’t remember it, what you call it but that was my experience of it. So at the end of that. Fi the fifth ceremony. It felt like I’d had a complete, re refresh, reboot, through, through MOT as they say, full kind of service of the machine and the psyche.

And I came away just with a real sense of renewal and. Just, just extraordinary experience. And also, the people I met, some very good friends, the people that I call, great friends. Now in, in the group, as you, you probably know from your own experience, the kind of, a lot of the medicine is in the group itself.

It’s the kind of how people share about the interactions people have the kinda triggering that goes on the kind of, the little, do you know what I mean? It’s the group itself, that group dynamic is quite important as well. So I had, I was very lucky. I had a great group.

So that was the first time, second time was a guy called Don Howard Lola. He had a place called Spirit Quest. Spirit Quest still exists, but Don Howard is sadly no longer with us, but he was he used to, he would work with Wachuma as well. So he’d worked with Ayahuasca, Anwar Tru and he was trying to keep the kind of the, the kind of process that had been developed and was used in Chavin, the kind of the, the mountain civilization in Chavin. And he’d taken a lot of those practices and tried to keep them going and recreate them in in his re his center and near keto.

So I did a white tumor diet after that which was hugely powerful experience as well. There was quite, it was quite an interesting dynamic because there’s a, there was some fairly high profile psychedelics, advocates who were there because it was looking likely it was gonna be Howard’s last, maybe last what do you call it?

Whatchu deta? It looked like it was gonna be his last one. ‘Cause of his, he was in failing health, so there was some quite high profile people there. So again, that was part of the kinda medicine of all the, but he was. Quite an interesting dynamic amongst the people who were there.

But I had a really powerful breakthrough experience on Wachuma, but as Howard says, it’s like a, it’s like a feather wachuma, it’s like a heavy feather, so I had a real, really powerful breakthrough kind of experience, very subtle with what Tur obviously it’s very different from Ayahuasca.

So that was my second experience. And then. I was at the end of last year, I went to back to Peru to the al to Alpa this time to Don Jose Campos place. I dunno if you know about Don Jose Campos, but he was in, he was in jail in Mexico. You might have heard that story about the, but the Peruvian healer who was in jail in Mexico for nearly a year he’s he’s out of jail now, which is great, but he’s got a place near Procal Plus I went to his place and that was more of a proper deta where you were, very basic food while you were there. Minimal interaction. The other, the template of the way of light was slightly more.

You, you’d have interactions you would eat together, et cetera. Whereas this was a bit more. Maybe traditional or rugged, I dunno what you’d call it, but it was literally, off grid very basic foods, minimal interactions and, more of a proper deta than what I’d done up till that point.

Again, hugely powerful experience. I felt a lot of release in that particular experience, again, no real, I don’t really get hugely visionary experiences, shall we say. But I do get these kind of profound breakthroughs and insights. This one in particular was around, around kinda trust and being able to kinda feel able to kinda let go of what is no longer serving me at an energetic level.

Like things that build up in your energy system that just are not. Necessary for your functioning, shall we say. So I had a real kind of, energetic release there. We did a ceremony on Halloween, which was one of the most extraordinary nights of my life. Darkest Night, the night before, maybe night when it was Full Moon.

So the first ceremony was done in Full Moon. So obviously the jungle is bathed in light. This ceremony on on Halloween was just the darkest night I’ve ever, been in, ever seen, ever, not, not seeing anything you can’t see in front of your face. And there was some very powerful kind of energetics in the ceremony.

And yeah, that’s hugely powerful. Then the fact the fifth ceremony was done in the daytime. There was a thunderstorm, jungle thunderstorm were moving around a lot, but in this last ceremony the thunderstorm was right above the maloka. And I’ve never done ayahuasca in the daytime.

It was just, there’s no, I would struggle to try and describe it as as the energy. You could see the energy in the forest with the, obviously with the power of the storm. The medicine and the, the music and, Don Jose Campos does extraordinary work with music.

Not just traditional song ecos, different types of music that he incorporates in ceremony as well. So yeah, just, yeah. Anyway, three times to Peru, each very different, but each trans completely transformative. In their own way.

Sam Believ: Thank you for sharing that. A few things come to mind is number one, you’re mentioning how different ayahuasca is in its it is still a psychedelic and it’s, it can get very psychedelic, but a lot of times, especially when you begin working with it, people expect this big explosion.

But in reality it just softly goes through your body, gets to know you, scans you and shows you stuff. And a lot of times you mentioned group dynamic as well, but we have word circles and then somebody comes to the word circle after first ceremony and they say. I’m not connected to the medicine because they haven’t seen the visions.

And then they proceed describing a complete and very beautiful ayahuasca experience of healing and understanding and learning. So it’s something we it’s something that we deal with every day here at at the retreat. Which is normal. I understand. I understand the hesitancy, but you can get very psychedelic.

So much so that, too much for you and you might regret wanting. To get it so psychedelic. But it’s an interesting medicine because with mushrooms, for example, if you take certain amount of certain mushrooms, you’re gonna have a certain experience with ayahuasca. It’s it can be this, it can be that.

It can be something completely different. Another thing that has to wine is that you say, you, you want to Peru three times and you had three different kind of ceremonies just within Peru itself. There’s some places there’s eCommerce, other places, there’s ceremonial music.

Some places it’s mix of both. Like in our case, aha. And in Colombian tradition, he does erose when he blesses the medicine and whenever he needs to like, organize the energy in the room. But then he actually sings ceremonial music, so using a lot of indigenous instruments. But the sound of the songs are in Spanish and it’s but it’s still, he guides the ceremony through the music.

And what comes to me is like, how great it is that not only the Ayahuasca tradition survived as opposed to, let’s say. In uk you saw people collecting those mushrooms. I can imagine. Ancient Celtic people must have had a tradition in the second one around it, and maybe I can ask you about it later, but it did not survive, it was uprooted.

You would be burned at stake and stuff like that. But here, not only the tradition survive, but there’s so many of them. There’s, within Columbia alone, there’s four. Four or five different tribes that work with Ayahuasca or Jaha, which is a Colombian name for Ayahuasca or ambi. ASCA is another name.

But also within those tribes there are different kinds of tribes and they have their own little accents and they, it’s all traditional. There’s like many ways to skin a cat, so to speak, but we’re kinda lucky to be, to have some. Traditions being preserved for us as not being part of the tradition to be now allowed in it and learn and be able to maybe even go back and recover your own tradition.

So what do you think about that ancient mushroom tradition? Because like in Europe there’s a lot of symbology around mushroom, including in not only Europe India, tension Greece. What do you think? Was there a tradition? Have you been able to find something perhaps.

Joe Vaughan: Yeah just to back to that point about the different traditions, like you’re like, you go to a Catholic mass and it’s a sung in LA and it’s very somber and all the rest of it, but you can also go to a, a Southern Baptist where everyone’s jumping around and dancing around essentially that, just celebrating in a different way.

So I that as a, as an example to people to say, that if you wanna sit with the Yah hour, for example, would be very different experience from sitting with a kinda shabo and and so forth. But it’s all. Celebrating the same thing in terms of, this is the tricky one actually.

The, you, the question about, what was happening over here? They were growing everywhere, right? So they’re growing in Scotland, they go in England, they grow in Wales, they’re everywhere. But I’ve asked, at conferences, I’ve asked, people who study this stuff.

Academics, do they, do, what do they think about the kinda druids, what do they think about, different mushroom culture traditions, et cetera. And you draw a complete blank. I can’t find any literature. And I’ve been having discussions with with, friends and colleagues and thinking this, there’s something we might want to have a look into.

But probably quite time consuming given the fact it’s, it’s not immediately obvious. How it was being used, but I think it’s kinda safe to assume that it was obviously we have kinda sacred sites here, that, kinda defy explanation, in terms of the weather positioned and so forth.

There’s obviously different types of communications being had and different levels of technological capability. But yeah, I’ll be brutally honest with you I have not been able to find anything yet, and I hope someone will one day come and say, oh, there’s a rich. Treasure trove of information over here, and then I’d, have to look at it.

But I think just now our kind of working hypothesis is that yes, for sure they must have been using them. Have you tried asking the mushrooms themselves? That’s actually a very good question. No, that’s not something I have asked. Next time I’m, somewhere in a kinda legal jurisdiction.

And, and we can happily look at if I’m in Holland, I might well do that. That might be the question.

Sam Believ: Yeah. With coastal legalization, for example, here in Colombia, the medicines that have been used here traditionally are legal because there are tribes that practice them.

For example, San Pedro and Ayahuasca are illegal when you have an indigenous shaman. However, mushrooms are. Decriminalized, but you cannot serve them to people. And there are, there is a tribe that’s called BER that used to work with mushrooms, but they lost their tradition. So now they’re trying to recover the tradition because yeah, here you have I believe it’s golden teacher or philosophy, COIs, they grow here, everywhere.

Like I am looking from the window to the field. I know in that field, in the cow down, you’re gonna find those mushrooms. I believe that maybe if recovering that tradition would also possibly help you legalizing or decriminalizing or as you were explaining, changing the the status of that drug or medicine.

So how is your legalization effort going and tell our, listen listeners exactly what you’re doing and how. Are you

Joe Vaughan: planning to achieve it? I just, so one thing I was thinking about when you were talking about that I dunno if you came across the work of the late great Linde e who was an advocate for.

Kind of very high dose psilocybin experiences from Detroit, an African American from Detroit, who again sadly is no longer with us, but he advocated for, kinda high dose psilocybin experiences. And he used to organize a, what he called the food of the Gods tour to Mexico where they would go to the site of the thunder mushrooms, like the fact that, where the lightning would strike the mountain.

And apparently around there, the mushrooms would grow and. He would advocate to go and do that. It’s something that I’ve always been it’s been in my mind, that, you’re part of the world, be very interested in that. In terms of the status of. Our work in on what we is called psilocybin access rights.

And so we’re a kind of, a volunteer group. We, we put we’ve got connections within the kinda political, kind of environment the decision to reschedule. Psilocybin has been sitting in the UK government for quite a long time, though, like we had a, we had an administration that was fairly open.

To new ideas. Are we depriving ourselves of opportunities commercially? Are we deprive, depriving ourselves of opportunities in terms of research? Are we depriving ourselves of opportunities in terms of, finding solutions to currently, problems that they, for which there isn’t a solution?

So there was a kind of an openness in government to pursue these kind of new. New kind of areas of inquiry. But then the admin the regime the government kind of fell down a rabbit hole of quite, strange ideas. Like they wanted to start, to start deporting asylum seekers, not deporting.

They wanted to move asylum seekers to Rwanda. It caused, so people would arrive on these, small boats that crossed the English Channel from FRAs into England on these dinghies, on these rubber, dinghy boats, right? And then what they were saying to them was like you can arrive in England, but we are going to send you to Rwanda to as a sort of a way to try and discourage them from coming right.

And of caused a huge kinda political problem and, here, ’cause it was just very strange thing to what to do. So that decision to reschedule psilocybin, which has been sitting there, just waiting for someone in a home office, I dunno what you might call it the Minister of the Interior and European countries.

We call it that the home secretary, the person that’s in charge of, homeland security and immigration and things like that. So that the minister in that department had this, had the kind of the, in the instrument ready to sign and go, okay psilocybin then moves.

But apparently they de sat on it for a long time because they were really bogged down with this kinda whole Rwanda issue. And the department was quite dysfunctional and our government became quite dysfunctional. And it’s, in its later years. So it’s close and there’s, we’ve had, politicians talk about psilocybin with, there’s a labor MP in the uk who advocates for a fresh look at psilocybin because she’s used it to treat her PTSD.

Had a terrible event happen in our life. And then, had PTSD as a result and then was able to find. Part of a solution to the issue of P ts d using psilocybin. Now, obviously you mentioned before different complimentary therapies, like breath work, meditation, cold, hot tapping, whatever it is, there’s a whole, basket suite of tools that you can use in conjunction with the medicine work to you know to reach a kind of a better place with whatever it is troubling you.

But she’s actually spoken in the parliament. Around psilocybin. The Prime Minister at the time, Richie Sunna, answered a question about psilocybin. There are also, o other politicians and people involved in the political kind of fields. Who, who’ve talked about it, who’ve looked at it, it’s been on the tv, so what kind of a, quite a strange place here in the uk where it’s known, it’s talked about.

It’s but no one’s really been brave enough. No one’s really thought, right? I’m gonna be the person that puts the pen to paper and signs this off. Everyone’s watching their back a little bit. No one wants to be the person that kinda makes the move. We’re having similar issues with other organizations trying to get, sort charity status.

The charity commission is a bit like, shit, if I sign this, is it all gonna, is it gonna, is it gonna harm my career? I get it. I guess it’s the problem with career politicians are more interested in their careers than they’re interested in. Actually doing something, potentially for the good of, good of the country.

So the thing is that, I studied politics. Politics was my major at university, and I always was aware that politics follows public opinion and not the other way around. And they used to say that the rule was that. Politics was 30 years behind public opinion when it came to changing things.

So things like, homosexuality, things like, women having, certain rights, certain things that we look at now and go that’s just crazy that was illegal. It’s crazy that homosexuality was illegal, however many years ago, not in the not too distant past.

It’s crazy to think that, but it took a long time. For us to get there. Now with modern media, things are much more are much more accelerated. So if public opinion starts to move and says we need a fresh look at psilocybin, we need to look at some of these compounds and look at, what they can do.

‘Cause the data isn’t there. People, academics tell me the data’s not there, we can have people having personal experiences and anecdotal evidence and all the rest of it, but. What they’re saying to me is that the data’s not there. So the policy makers won’t change unless the data’s there, but then the data won’t be there unless the public opinion’s there and the people are doing it to create the data.

Do you see what I mean? So we’re not a bit of a catch 22. So what I’m trying to do is try to raise awareness outside of the, the traditional, psychedelics community. Because I think outside of our psychedelics community there’s a awareness is quite low.

In a general population, if you were to ask a hundred people, just ordinary people on the street, what do they know about psilocybin ayahuasca? You’d probably at most you might get, oh, I’ve heard of mitral dosing, or, oh, I saw something on TV about that, but I can’t remember what it was. It’s not something which is really in the public consciousness, and as soon as you say magic mushrooms, people go, all right.

That’s just. People wearing, wolves heads and howling at the moon and barefoot and naked and crazy, so it still has that stigma, because of, maybe what happened in the seventies or whatever. And, certain people might have gone off the rails back in the day.

So I guess the main issue as far as I’m concerned is that we need to get this information out in a way, which is constructive. It’s almost like we have to rebrand the whole exercise to make it palatable for, your average person on the street. So they don’t think that, you interact with psilocybin or have an ayahuasca experience and you’re gonna sell all your stuff, walk around barefoot and you could fuck your life.

It’s ’cause that’s not ideal, and I want to be like the kind of, almost the person that makes it boring. You know what I mean? Average guy, middle, middle aged father, has a normal job. I almost want to be the sort of the person that says, look, you don’t have to start wearing, beads and stuff in your hair or whatever.

Do you know what I mean? I’ve got nothing against that, of course, but just from a mainstream positioning point of view, it makes it difficult when. People think it’s just gonna make you kinda go crazy and lose your mind. But it’s almost like the opposite is true. It’s almost like you can, it can have the complete opposite fit.

You can have your feet very much under you and much more solid than before, if that makes sense. So we’re nearly there, but we’ve got a long way to go in terms of public opinion, like a long way to go.

Sam Believ: Yeah. I also believe the opposite is true, that people that. They, what is normal now, what consider is normal is actually less normal than that thing that they criticize.

But yeah we’re definitely, I believe we’re maybe 10 years away from psychedelics going truly mainstream and hopefully this time as opposed to sixties in the more controlled, in the more organized manner. And regarding politics, I think that. Mental health crisis is not getting any better.

It’s only getting worse. COVID didn’t help. And just the way we live our life and the level of stress and basically in, in health, if you look at health the only aspect of it that didn’t progress is mental health. Everything was improved in the last 50 years or so, but mental health declined.

And this is the solution kind of staring at us. Eventually politicians will have to do something about it because if your population is all, depressed and suicidal and is not able to work, maybe then they will start carrying and be like, yeah, maybe it’s time for us to do something there.

There always needs to be some kind of interest, and as of now, obviously it makes more money to have people. Their daily antidepressants and be subdued and quiet and not asking too much questions.

Joe Vaughan: Yeah, I think in, in, in many respects, we’re looking at our, trying to construct a more positive narrative for the future.

I have children and I get a bit concerned about the relentless kinda negativity that, that surrounds them. They’re told that. There’s gonna be environmental collapse, there’s gonna be, apocalyptic scenarios. There’s gonna be, everything’s gonna fall apart.

Now, I’m not downplaying the fact that we have huge challenges as a species and, a lot of our behavior, probably does need to change. In order for us to have, create that positive narrative. But. So take the example of, so traumatic brain injury in in athletes, right?

So I, I also work for a vet which is designed to raise awareness for some, something like, traumatic brain injury in athletes, right? Currently there’s not, there’s obviously been a lot of work done by neurologists to try to understand what happens in a traumatic brain injury.

What seems to be happening anecdotally with some of the athletes that, that I speak to who’ve been rugby players or ice hockey players or professional fighters is that, these individuals have had, multiple concussions, multiple difficulties in their careers. The treatment options that they were given at the end of their careers didn’t work for them.

They then tooked matters into their own hands and went and had, experiences with different compounds and then found themselves, in much better health and in some cases completely cured, then surely that’s something that we should be looking at. You know what I mean? It is why would you not look at that? And so I work with a network of, academics researchers, individuals, participants yeah, as I say, the whole kinda range of people, psychotherapists, et cetera, to try and build a kind of a very robust framework for this that says, look, if you are skeptical about, the kind of, the safety of these companies, right?

We can. We can go down that way we can do, the kinda safety studies are quite well known. David Nat has done quite a lot of work on that here. But we can look at the kinda safety profile, which seems, it’s fairly solid. We can do, we can do clinical trials, if you’re squeamish about ceremonial experiences, we can do the clinical trial route.

We can do it, we can do absolutely the best quality science you want. We can do it. So why wouldn’t you do that? It’s, it just seems like a complete no brainer. For, for like the governing bodies in rugby, the governing bodies in, ice hockey, the governing bodies in football.

Why would you not, do you know your duty of care to your players? Surely with would indicate that you would want to at least have the discussion. So this is where we are now. We’re trying to, open these doors with governing bodies, open these doors with kinda senior level people of influence to say, we’re not advocating that, people go out into the fields and just eat loads of mushrooms and see what happens. We wanna do it in a really controlled. And structured and safe and responsible way, complete wraparound care, with, with, proper psychotherapy, with proper trained therapists, with, proper, preparation protocols, quality screening, quality integration, quality interactions with other types of, healing modalities.

Be the meditation, breath or whatever. Diet’s usually important. We can have a technological kind of approach to it as well. We can track all this through data collection apps, obviously with all the the GDPR regulations and, data protection and all that.

That’s all there. We can do it all completely professionally and it doesn’t have to be, scary. Obviously the experiences themselves can be challenging, no doubt about it, and with the right dose levels, the right preparation, the right medicine for the right person, the right time with the right structures around them, I really, I’m struggling to see a really good argument against it.

Do you know what I mean?

Sam Believ: Yeah. There’s definitely. The benefits outweigh the risks. And yeah, I do agree with you. It’s a matter, it’s a matter of time that it gets looked at. And meanwhile, yeah, people can just come over here where it is legal and you can do it properly. And traditionally, and still, I believe in the future when it is legal, let’s say, mushrooms possibly, but ayahuasca.

Still, it’s still, there’s a certain charm to coming to the country of origin. It’s kinda like it’s one thing to eat the Swiss cheese in Brazil or something than to go visit, it’s there’s this it’s a little more complex than cheese with, it’s like a ducks because there is a certain spiritual aspect to connection to the land.

But I think that. Legalization is a good thing as long as they do it properly. You said, you’re growing up in a, the age of trade spotting. I know if people seen this movie, but it’s like really gnarly drugs, aids lots of crime and just difficult times. So speaking about drugs for example, what do you see the potential for the psychedelics to also come in, opioid crisis and just, all the synthetic drugs especially given the situation with your friend what have you noticed?

Joe Vaughan: Yeah, so interestingly, Scotland which has a kind of a very shameful sort of statistical record on drugs deaths. So proportionally Scotland does very badly and is kinda top of the league tables for drugs deaths.

So there’s a real realization in Scotland that you know, that something has to be done about this. So they’re, but they’re, what they’re kinda looking at is, and it’s all very noble and it’s all very good, and I’m not criticizing anyone, but they’re talking about, having safe places to do injections, having, clean needles and, things like that.

And obviously, support networks, but. But to me it doesn’t really get to the root cause of why people are doing it in the first place. And and as I say with my friend, if he was a intravenous drug user, I saw the difference in him, with, and I know it’s only one person.

It’s an anecdotal, it’s anecdotal evidence, but. Yeah, I do. I do see a huge opportunity for a fresh look at this. And Scotland has a devolved government, so Scotland is obviously part of the United Kingdom. There’s obviously the central government in London, but there’s also a set of devolved responsibilities in Edinburgh.

And I think health is one of them, or health is one of them. And I saw see that there’s a huge potential to raise awareness in, in, in certain areas. I know there’s people talking about even within the police forces themselves, people, people are looking at potentially, advocating for a fresh look at the PTSD, which is in involved in policing itself.

There, there are areas that I’m, it’s gonna be a longer game potentially with obviously the police forces. Police force are gonna be, nipping over to do ayahuasca anytime soon. There’s no way. Not right now, but, maybe down the line.

But yeah, I think absolutely right. There’s a huge opportunity for a fresh look for some, some pilot studies to take some, just have a look at and let’s get the data. If the data they need. Let’s get the data. If they’re not, if they’re not making the decision because they don’t have the data.

Let’s get them the data then. And I know that with the psychedelic community, there’s a lot of people who think it should be not medicalized. That there should be, it should be, there’s a de there’s a decrim movement, there’s a decrim nature movement. There’s the, it should be, spiritual only there, there’s purists within the psychedelics community.

But I personally am, I’m like. If it’s data they want, let’s give them the data that they want. If it has to be done in a clinical setting, it has to be done in a clinical setting. If it needs to be done, okay, fine. Like you say, there are enough places, in Europe, in Amster, in Holland, for example.

Where people can go. It’s only a hop skip from the jump from, the UK to Holland to do it completely legally. So you know that will be happening as well. So we, I guess they’ve gotta do it on all frauds, right? People who are called to do it safely and responsibly can go to Holland, have the experience come back.

Hopefully they. Come back with a positive, story and just help them hopefully. And then at the same time we can do the clinical trials and then we can maybe join the whole thing up. And we just keep advocating, keep trying to raise awareness, keep trying to stress that it’s not just pure hedonism, it’s not reckless and hedonistic, it’s intentional and therapeutic.

Sam Believ: Those are very good words and hopefully somebody will hear you, Joe. But yeah, that’s, thank you for, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your story and sharing your passion and I really hope that, but those, let’s do another episode. 10 years from now when you have achieved your goal and we can celebrate together.

Joe Vaughan: I would love to know your story. I dunno much about, about what you’re doing, but obviously I. I’d love to maybe switch it around and have and ask you about how you got from you, you

Sam Believ: gotta, you gotta start a podcast then. This is how it works.

Although by far is very simple. I am a 36-year-old man from Lavia originally I used to work in offshore and gas with bunch of people from Scotland, including, and about eight years ago I got I was, I was really successful and I had a lot, I was making a lot of money and I reached everything that society told me.

By reaching, I will be happy. But happiness never came. So I started traveling, quit my job, quit my relationship, ended up in Colombia and then started working with ayahuasca, changed my life, and now I’m running arguably the best rated Ayahuasca retreat in South America. And definitely one of the biggest.

And with, I’m focusing on very. Affordable retreats, authentic with, the real shaman and good care, good integration. Trying to find that grounded balance, as you said, not too much beans and and a white line cloth, but like trying to show that it’s Itasca is potentially for everyone.

If you’re having an issue, you can come and experience it and you don’t have to be a certain kind of person to do it. And, we battle fear with trust. I have we have close to 500, five star reviews on Google and 200 plus video testimonials so people can see them and over time hopefully believe that it is not that dangerous if done properly.

But that’s my story

Joe Vaughan: in a very short, that will, I’d love to, introduce you to some of the people that we’re working with because there’s such an important need for for. People like yourself who operate with integrity because unfortunately, sadly, it’s not always the case.

And particularly, vulnerable people, women need to be, need to have that absolute guarantee that they’re safe and that they’re being handled with care. Because obviously the increase in an interest in this is gonna, it’s gonna attract people at anything that attracts people, attracts money, and anything attracts money, attracts, humanity, humanity at its worst.

No, I have, great respect for what you’re doing. And, if the stars aligned, then maybe one day we’ll sit together.

Sam Believ: Every, it looks like every time you go to drink ayahuasca, go to a different place. So I’m assuming the time has come for you to switch a country as well and experience Jaha, Columbia, ayahuasca.

I think you’re gonna enjoy it then. Yeah, we definitely, I’m really proud of what we have created here. It would be great for you to see it and experience it yourself. So you are invited. It’s an official invitation.

Joe Vaughan: Amazing. And I really dig forward to it. When it happens, it’ll be the right, it will be the right thing.

’cause always is, that’s the magic of these things, right? It’s it’s always the right thing. When done with, proper intention and with a pure heart.

Sam Believ: Thank you Joe. And where can people fight you or some of our. Listeners from uk, we actually had people participate that were even in the UK government.

So you never know where can they find you and maybe even

Joe Vaughan: support your cause. The psilocybin access rights is called Par Global, so PAR global, across Instagram and all the usual suspects. That’s the psilocybin access rights campaign. I wanna give a shout out to Heroic Hearts ’cause I’m also an ambassador for Heroic Hearts.

Heroic Hearts is, there’s a US version, there’s a UK version, there’s an Australian version, and there’s a Canadian version. So Heroic Hearts big shout out to them. So that’s quite easy to find. And then Athletes Journey Home, which is the new kind of advocacy vehicle for athletes for, head injury, gambling, addictions, eating disorders, and so on.

So those three things. Global Heroic Hearts and Athletes Journey Hall.

Sam Believ: Thank you for sharing that. We are yeah, I spoke to Ian. Ian McCain or McCall? Ian McCall. McCall. Yeah, we he was the one who introduced me to me, to you. And he’s thinking about coming here in October to, to the wire. So maybe you can join them and, yeah, the, I definitely, I had TBII used to do boxing actually, when I was a teenager.

And I had pretty regular headache. I don’t know if it was ayahuasca that helped me, but probably it definitely didn’t hurt me. ’cause yet there’s some good science showing that psychedelics can help you restore that beaten brain. But for that, go back about maybe 10 episodes. You find my episode with XCFC champion Ian McCall and,

Joe Vaughan: yeah. Yeah. Ian’s a co. I co he’s the founder of the Athletes Journey Home Venture in the us. And I grew up with a boxer, a guy called Ken Buchanan. He was a world champion. He fought Reversal Duran in Madison Square Gardens. So boxing is very close to my heart.

And and I, and if we could find something that can just make the lives of those boxers better as they, when they finish their careers. Yeah, it would be something that would be, almost like a dream, for me to be able to help help people to kinda find that solution.

And I’m always very clear I’m not saying this is the magic bullet. It can be, but, miracles do happen. But I’m saying, it’s, it can be it can be part of the solution. And I’m convinced of it, but part of the solution, it’s not the one and only solution.

Sam Believ: Yeah, those are very wise words. The work will need to be done by you. There is no escape from that. Guys you were listening to Ayahuasca podcast. Hope you enjoyed this episode. It was a conversation with Joe Bone. I will add all the lakes in the description. Joe, thank you for coming on the show.

I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you’d like to support us and psychedelic Renaissance at large. Please follow us and leave us a like wherever it is you’re listening. Share this episode with someone who will benefit from this information. Nothing in this podcast is intended as medical advice, and it is for educational and entertainment purposes only.

This episode is sponsored by Lara Ayahuasca Retreat. At Lara, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity. Laira connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you.

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with Bob Otis, the founding pastor of Sacred Garden Community Church and a leading advocate for the decriminalization of sacred plant medicines. Bob is deeply involved in psychedelic spirituality and serves on councils dedicated to the protection of sacred plants.

We touch upon topics such as:

Bob’s journey with psychedelics and founding Sacred Garden (01:16)

Mystical experiences and spiritual connection through plant medicines (04:14)

The relationship between psychedelics and Western religion (06:32)

Bob’s perspective on starting a church for plant medicine (15:19)

Ethical considerations and challenges of leading a psychedelic church (47:20)

The Decriminalize Nature movement (59:34)

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats, go to http://www.lawayra.com

Find more about Bob Otis at sacredgarden.life.

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:02)

Hi guys and welcome to Ayahuasca Podcast. ⁓ As always, we do the whole assembly of today I’m interviewing Bob Otis. Bob is ⁓ the founding pastor of Sacred Garden Community Church and a leading advocate for the decriminalization of sacred plant medicines. He’s deeply involved in psychedelic spirituality and serves on Chakruna Council for the protection of sacred plants, working towards ethical and sustainable practices in plant medicines. Bob, welcome to the show.

Bob (00:33)

Thank you, it’s lovely to be here.

Sam Believ (00:35)

Bob, before we begin diving deep, ⁓ can you tell us a little bit about your story, your life story and how it brought you to work with plant medicines?

Bob (00:46)

Yeah. And actually, you you had talked about that bio and I will give a little just because of, ⁓ I want to be an integrity. I ⁓ had been really grateful to be a part of that Chacruna council and then moved to ⁓ founding the, co -founding with others, the sacred plan Alliance. I’m no longer on that Chacruna council and Sam, thank you for letting me clarify that. I could have cut that earlier. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s really have appreciated Chacruna, but want to be an integrity about, about that relationship. Yeah.

Bob (01:16)

You were asking kind of about background ⁓ and it’s interesting and actually having just been talking about chakruna, ⁓ it makes an interesting lead in because there are different ways I think into what I’ll call the entheogenic awakening, the psychedelic awakening, this sort of time that we’re in. ⁓ And a lot of people will move into this space through having heard about ayahuasca. This is called ayahuasca podcast and people have learned that you can go down to

Bob (01:46)

locations, maybe in Colombia or Peru or Brazil or Bolivia and access these, what you call medicines or sacred medicines, what I call sacraments from my culture and tradition. ⁓ And so there’s a really kind of a path that has become very wide and well -trod over the past, I’ll say five years or 10 years into the South and receiving ayahuasca or maybe Wachuma and others.

Bob (02:16)

Whereas my background and heritage is really much more global. And I would call it even modern or postmodern, in fact, probably even trans modern or meta modern. And so my first really deep and meaningful experience that has guided my life to this day was over 40 years ago, sitting on the side of the Smoky Mountains in East Tennessee, where my family had been for nine generations. So.

Bob (02:44)

In some sense, you know, I really feel a deep connection to that space. We have lived in the land with property even inside the Smoky Mountains Park ⁓ for a long time. So I just felt really connected to that place. And ⁓ even with all of its history, ⁓ Cherokee Tennessee was very near where that was. So just thinking about the indigenous peoples that have been there and are still in that area, it’s just a rich conversation. But anyway, sitting up there in the Smokies,

Bob (03:14)

with LSD, ⁓ a ⁓ European sacrament, really, you know, that came from Albert Hoffman ⁓ and was with a group of really trusted friends. And we were sort of truth and infinity ⁓ oriented, trying to understand. This was in my teens. We were, ⁓ I’m so thankful to have been with a group that was seeking to deepen rather than ⁓ only to ⁓ recreate. We were also happy to be together and enjoying ourselves, but really kind of seeking

Bob (03:44)

truth or knowledge or wisdom, whatever that may be. And just had a moment with a relatively high dose of LSD where I was sitting apart from the group. And it was as if ⁓ one of those mystical experiences that you’ll hear about that these sacraments can open. ⁓ it was, and ⁓ I could start crying telling the story, I probably won’t today, but you know, it was as if time stopped and the entire universe became solid light.

Bob (04:14)

and my body dissolves in my sense of self extended outward into, it ⁓ felt like maybe all things and in all time. ⁓ And ⁓ it was just a really profound experience also as if consciousness were in all things and as if all things were known and loved and held in love. ⁓

Bob (04:39)

In a sense, forgiven, but deeper than that word, you know, so it was just a really profound experience that was really healing. And I couldn’t even put any words, even those words I just put on have taken me 20, 30, 40 years just to start putting words into that experience. But it also was guiding me to learn more. I went to my own father who was a medical doctor and I was thankfully able to trust. I’d seen some books by folks like Charles Tard and John Lilly.

Bob (05:09)

in his library, these sort of Western early psychedelic aficionados. So I felt safe talking to him and he said, let’s go to the library and check out all the books. And so I found psychedelics encyclopedia and ⁓ some of these down at the Oak Ridge public library. And that just started a lifetime of study, leading me to receive psychology degrees and religious study degrees and an ⁓ MDiv and studying with Wendy Doniger at University of Chicago, who was a sacred

Bob (05:38)

global sacred plant expert. So those like profound, deeply meaningful experiences that these entheogens can bring can really impact our lives. ⁓ And I think sent me in a ⁓ direction that helped me grow closer to my family, helped me grow closer to meaning, I think in this life and have led me to here. There’s one little story, hope that was useful.

Sam Believ (06:02)

Very useful, thank you so much for sharing. ⁓ Religion is something that I’m planning to talk about ⁓ on this episode. And you mentioned LSD, right? And there’s some good ⁓ way to explain the relationship between, you know, Aragoth and Kukion and, ⁓ you know, ⁓ Greek religions and maybe even early Christianity. I ⁓ think you probably would know a lot about that. ⁓

Sam Believ (06:32)

What have you found in that direction as in connection between psychedelics and religion? ⁓

Bob (06:39)

It’s so interesting and also I’m hearing a little bit of around. Sort of a Western religions, you know that you mentioned Greece and Christianity and and some of these and. This is such a rich. I won’t say story because I think there are stories you know there are are such rich stories associated with this and the first one, which I’ll share with a little bit of grief is my sense is that you know the indigenous plant practices of.

Bob (07:08)

the European continent, which still exists in some areas, like in Finland with the Sami peoples and the Laplanders in the far north and Tungus all the way out in Siberia. ⁓ There are these still living indigenous traditions of what someone might call the global north. ⁓ But Europe really, I think in many ways, was the first of

Bob (07:33)

of the ⁓ humans around the globe where something that we might call modernity ⁓ pushed all that down, you know, where we were somehow. It’s like the indigenous, I’ll say religions or the indigenous sacred practices of meaning, ⁓ which were present. And we could talk about some of those. You mentioned, you know, the Kikeon and, ⁓ and Eleusis and they’re really interesting quotes from Shakespeare.

Bob (08:02)

where he mentions different, even even mentions toad in a really interesting way. There’s the bufo bufo in Europe and that bufotnene can have an effect. So there are a lot of indications ⁓ authors like Karl Rook and Brian Murorescu and Jonathan Ott and many others ⁓ have written about that we lost. And this wasn’t only European, also even in the Middle East and even in the Far East, there seemed to be something that was

Bob (08:31)

that was happening, ⁓ starting as far back as maybe 1 ,500 years ago and then accelerating all the way up until recent times, where we were learning to see objects. We were creating science. We were getting this subject -object distinction really clear and becoming empirical. All of this was happening. And I think that’s very strong magic that that science is bringing. And so I feel that there was probably a lot that was really compelling.

Bob (09:01)

I’m just trying to understand the story. then as a part of that, the indigenous plant practices were considered to be like superstitious or witchcraft or harmful. They weren’t in alignment with the sort of sky god religions of Christianity or Judaism or Islam or some of those. And so something happened starting probably 1500 years ago, but then we can talk about different times, know, there are inquisitions and

Bob (09:31)

And even in the last 50, 75 years in the United States where we had the drug laws, ⁓ right? So my personal feeling is the Irish islands where I came from, ⁓ the areas of Greek, the European mainland, they were all holding indigenous sacred plant practices. For me, they, that I will call that religious or religion. And

Bob (10:00)

We’re speaking from the languages of our culture, Sam. You may be thinking more from a, I don’t want to be projecting to you, but for example, just to use examples, you may be coming from more of a Colombian culture where you think about plant medicine and ⁓ some things like Pachamama. And ⁓ it’s more of a almost like a cultural healing, self -healing medicinal type of practice. Again, don’t let me, I’m just, I’m projecting. It may not be accurate, but.

Bob (10:28)

For example, there are these different ways people will look. Whereas for me, I am coming out of a Western background. That’s my family heritage. ⁓ On my dad’s side of the family, there were two medical doctors and two pastors and a nurse who married a pastor. Right? So this is my culture and my language that I’m coming out of. So for me, the experience that the sacraments brought were of what I might call divine presence, right? Or divinity.

Bob (10:55)

I’m not so comfortable with the word God because there’s a lot of other cultural baggage that I may not agree with, but it might have been as if God were present, you know, with that sacramental experience. Certainly what I would call the divine. But what it means to you may be different. For me, that may be that spirit of universal love. For someone else, it may be the spirit of Christ. For someone else, may be ⁓ Mother Iah coming and guiding them. Like, it seems like this experience may be different based on our culture.

Bob (11:24)

For me personally, it’s a profoundly religious experience. ⁓ Coming from, for example, this Western philosopher, William James, who talks about religion as those experiences, I’m not going to get the quote exactly right, that the attitudes, experiences, sentiments that each of us in our own heart ⁓ hold in our sincere relationship to that, whatever that is that we might consider divine, right? This is William James’ definition of religion.

Bob (11:55)

that the sentiments, the experiences, the practices that each of us carry in our heart in relationship to whatever we might consider divine. And to me, the sacraments participate in that, ⁓ the plant sacraments, the sacraments of our church, ⁓ whether that may be the combination of DMT and MAOI that opens up that, that opens the way to the divine, or whether or not that may be coming from ⁓

Bob (12:25)

MDMA, is helping remove those things that are blocking us from the divine, or whether or not that may be ⁓ the psilocybin mushrooms, which can bring us into a state of presence with that which I’m calling divine. And for me, that’s really the definition of a sacrament, that the thing that is connected to and connecting us to that experience of the divine or to the divine. That’s the way I would define a sacrament. And the sacramental practice is religious.

Bob (12:55)

And so that’s a little background there. Hope that’s helpful.

Sam Believ (12:59)

Mm -hmm. Yeah, so ⁓ I actually come from Latvia originally which is in Eastern Europe and ⁓ even though I’ve been in Colombia for eight years and most of my spirituality got ⁓ Developed here. I ⁓ did have a like to participate in the very ⁓ Paganistic sort of ritual in Latvia with us. It was a sauna ritual something similar to the musk all the way before I even know what the musk all was and in that part they

Sam Believ (13:27)

they work with plants a lot like they would use masculine trees for masculine, feminine trees for feminine. There’s like series of saunas and cold dipping ⁓ to such an extent that I think it resulted in one of my very first psychedelic experiences. So to say, I remember my consciousness sort of shrinking and kind of becoming ⁓ dissolved. But in those forests in Latvia, all over the place, and Latvia was the last pagan ⁓

Bob (13:52)

Thank you.

Sam Believ (13:58)

place in Europe ⁓ historically they were only ⁓ Christianized very late ⁓ but you see those rat cap mushrooms everywhere and also have access to Russian culture because I am a Russian speaker as well and all the fairy tales they have to do with mushrooms and all kinds of you know suspiciously very psychedelic looking and sounding creatures and stories so I kind of understand what you mean by that but

Bob (14:15)

So, thank

Sam Believ (14:26)

the story seems to be that ⁓ religion was started from psychedelics or from those sacraments then including the cult of Dionysus that then kind of grew into ⁓ Christianity and then somewhere along the line we lost that connection to such an extent that religions became against the psychedelics and now with the work like you’re doing where obviously you have a church with psychedelics it’s kind of bringing that connection back together

Sam Believ (14:56)

⁓ So let’s talk a little bit about that, you know, your very unique path to work with plant medicines or sacred medicines or sacraments as you like to call them ⁓ on which I do agree. I do agree that plant medicines are sacraments. How and why did you start a church? you know, because it’s a very different route to take. Tell us more about that.

Bob (15:19)

Right, right. And I was really enjoying that discussion about your experience in Latvia. Thanks for sharing that. That’s interesting. Yeah. And it also opens up the question about what may be a sacrament, right? And for me, sometimes within this community, and I answer your question, ⁓ but just to go back to your last comment, for me, ⁓ the entheogens, the psychedelics, it’s also to remind people that psyche, even that word psyche,

Bob (15:46)

can mean soul or something that’s indefinable, that’s like that life force, the thing that is inhabiting us, ⁓ Expanding that and bringing that forward. ⁓ For me, the ⁓ plant ⁓ sacraments, the fungal sacraments, they help this deaf man here. ⁓ It may be that taking ⁓ saunas or meditating in India, all of these things may also help us find that experience of the divine.

Bob (16:15)

For me, having sat many 10 -day meditation retreats and taken all kinds of various forms of Timaskal, I’m so thankful that the psychedelic plant sacraments exist because I don’t think I would be able to hear without them. So to me, ⁓ they’re required for my practice to be able to receive the benefits of divine presence. ⁓ After more than 50 years of seeking, ⁓ these have been the sacraments that

Bob (16:46)

open the way, right? So that to me is required for my sincere religious practice, which is part of what helps define our church, right? What do we require for our practice? So just to answer your question directly, it’s interesting because I had had this initial really profound, overwhelming mystical experience when I was 17, and then I had had a few other experiences over my life kind of leading in that direction.

Bob (17:15)

And though they were guiding me, feel at ⁓ really deep levels like subconscious or even unconscious guidance being received as well as conscious guidance. I didn’t know why I felt so compelled to study psychology and religious studies and sociology and receive a master’s of divinity. ⁓ I just felt that. ⁓

Bob (17:40)

⁓ those experiences were guiding me to ask these questions and I had to go in those places to answer them, right? Or to at least learn more. I wouldn’t say answer, but to grow more depth and language in the space. So I had spent 35 or more years after, you know, having some initial deep experiences, ⁓ preparing myself to found a church, really. But I didn’t realize it. You know, I was like, why am I doing this? My parents bless them were so loving. They’re like, Bob, we want to

Bob (18:07)

support you. It was a lot of privilege for me that my parents would ⁓ morally and ethically support me doing all these strange studies that weren’t really career oriented. You know what I mean? That’s just like psychology and religious studies and studying plant, going down to Palenque with my dad and learning from Terrence McKenna and Sasha Shogan. you know, it’s like, that wasn’t really a career move exactly, right? But I just felt a deep, compelling

Bob (18:37)

need, know, like a calling, I guess you might say that was coming out of those experiences. I started growing my own mushrooms when I was 18. Right. Because I also felt a strong calling that the sacraments were so important to me and my community. This was when this concept of community started coming into my head as a teenager. I was like, these sacraments are important to me and my tribe, my community. need them.

Bob (19:04)

I need to be able to go to earth and sun ⁓ and receive the sacrament. don’t want to depend on all this market economy and dealers. It needs to be between me and earth and soil and sun and water and sacrament. I just felt that calling, which may have been a re -indigenizing energy. ⁓ I’m not sure, but it was like, Bob, the sacraments are asking you to connect to the soil and the seed. And so now we have a garden.

Bob (19:33)

I have a sacred garden. ⁓ so having been living in this location in Oakland with a big parking lot and a big warehouse, and we took the concrete out of a lot of the parking lot. like to say we unpaved the parking lot and we invited Paradise to come back in. There’s a song about paving the parking lot and, ⁓ paved Paradise and put up a parking lot. And we kind of, we’re doing the opposite here. You know, we’re like taking out the parking lot and bringing Paradise back into the heart of Oakland.

Bob (20:03)

know, downtown Oakland, where I live. So there’s a beautiful sacred plant garden here. I had had a long practice with sort of ranging between three and 10 people like my close friends, you know, but like at the time in the nineties and zeros, you had to be sort of a really careful underground psychedelic aficionado. If you’re going to be practicing, it wasn’t popular. You couldn’t at the time there weren’t these paths down to South America, weren’t well trodden, right? They weren’t easy to find.

Bob (20:33)

And so I had my group of, we called ourselves the Yogi team, Bay Area Practical Satsang. We had all kinds of funny names for our groups, right? Satsang Unity Project. We’d get together and enjoy sacraments and move into divine presence. But then suddenly around 2017, everything started to change. think maybe Michael Pollan’s book, but there was like a sea change in culture. There’s something was happening around 2015, 2016, 17.

Bob (21:02)

And that little group that I had been sort of the informal leader of was really expanding. People were kind of bringing my partner, ⁓ my cousin, my friend, know, Bob, these gatherings out here at Tranquility Base are really wonderful. You can we have more ceremonies, larger ceremonies? So we were starting to have three, four ceremonies a month, 15, 20, 25 people’s ceremonies. This back 2015, 16, 17, right? And that was…

Bob (21:33)

Just mostly I were leading those ceremonies. I would have sober sitters come in, folks from ⁓ mycological groups and things. ⁓ everything was changing, Sam. They weren’t experienced aficionados ⁓ who had been studying meditation all their lives. They were people seeking healing, people who were alienated, seeking connection, seeking to grow community, all kinds of folks coming in. So that’s where I realized, this is more than I.

Bob (22:02)

should be holding, ⁓ right? ⁓ We need to grow facilitation. ⁓ And so I started my first facilitation workshop in 2017 with a few folks from this place called Tranquility Base and Karen and a couple of others. And the workshops were going well and we were graduating and growing facilitation slowly. ⁓

Sam Believ (22:20)

fuck.

Bob (22:26)

But then the whole structure of the community was becoming unwieldy. know, the email list was having three, 400 people on it, right? And so we got together, sort of the leadership group, and we said, what is going on? And we all realized that we had already a church, that it was an etheric body of a church. We were a community coming together, bringing resources and methods and practices together that were enabling us to experience the divine, right?

Bob (22:56)

⁓ And so ⁓ that was ⁓ sort of an etheric recognition. Then we got ⁓ our friend from Chikruni together, and we started asking, what would it mean to found a church in the space? ⁓ And so we were able to start doing that. And COVID hit, which was actually in a way useful for us. We started meeting online frequently.

Bob (23:20)

And then we were working through our bylaws and all these things, and we founded the church formally in 2020. I hope that was, yeah, that’s a good story there.

Sam Believ (23:29)

⁓ You mentioned COVID and interestingly enough for me COVID was the moment I moved out to the countryside which ⁓ indirectly led to eventually starting the Loira retreat. ⁓ So as you say you kind of were doing stuff your life preparing you for something. Something similar happened to me I never planned to start an ayahuasca retreat I just started doing ceremonies with the shaman that I knew and slowly just grew and now outgrew.

Sam Believ (23:59)

anything I could have imagined. So COVID, think was this big wake up call for a lot of people. And also I think the trust in mainstream authority ⁓ really plummeted around the COVID time and more people started looking for alternative healing methods and plant medicines amongst them. ⁓ But can you talk to us a little bit more about, you know,

Sam Believ (24:25)

Let’s say, let’s imagine somebody’s listening to this podcast and they thinking about starting their own church. ⁓ What is that process like? ⁓ How easy or difficult that is? Because I think in US, one of the only ways ⁓ to work with the medicine is to have a church.

Bob (24:42)

Yeah, yeah. And this is ⁓ a rich conversation for me that involves a lot of self -reflection. ⁓ So I’ll share my perspective and there may be other perspectives, but I guess the first thing that I would propose, and this is why I’m coming, trying to come into this with a humble framing, ⁓ is I would not recommend founding a church ⁓ if the goals of founding the church are to sell mushrooms or something like that, right?

Bob (25:12)

I’m not that selling mushrooms in itself, you know that that may be a lovely wonderful. I fully support you know people offering mushrooms to communities. ⁓ But ⁓ I’ve there has been experienced people come in meeting me. They’re like Bob. I want to deal mushrooms. Why don’t I found a church right and to me that that is a challenging. Because I would propose to you that if you’re considering founding a church that you really want to be.

Bob (25:41)

sincere in understanding what you mean by that or exploring what you mean by what is founding a church, right? ⁓ Spiritual but not religious in the United States is not religious, right? So you probably want to be able to think about, you can be spiritual and religious, you know, that can help, right? But if you want to found a church, you probably need to look through that

Bob (26:05)

critique of ⁓ the domination associated with religion. You mentioned distrust in ⁓ authorities and institutions that has emerged a little bit since the early ⁓ 20s. And a lot of people have a lot of distrust of religious institutions, right? Big churches and Methodist Church and Catholic Church and things like that, experiencing them as dominating, right? And really culturally dominating, not opening the way to an experience of God, but rather dominating me culturally and telling me I have to live certain ways and,

Bob (26:35)

So I want to propose if someone’s opening a church, you want to think about all of those things. What do I mean by religion? What do I mean by church? ⁓ Am I able to sincerely ⁓ get behind that concept? Right. What do I mean when I say that? Right. If you’re like, I just want a way to sell mushrooms without getting in trouble, that’s making it more difficult for other churches that are sincere. You see what I mean? Because you’re really ⁓ taking advantage rather than

Bob (27:05)

moving from authenticity. So that’s my first comment. And that’s kind of a tough, that’s kind of a rough one. And I realize there may be feedback, critical feedback on that statement that I’m making, it’s, and so I want to be humble and reflective there, but that’s my first comment. So if you, if you feel that you have a sincere calling to engage in a religious ⁓ practice, then in the United States, you just need a few things to be really clear. You need to have a well -formed doctrine or dogma.

Bob (27:34)

has to be clear. ⁓ that already causes trouble for me. Those were dogma. my gosh, no. Right. ⁓ Because dogma is often associated with metaphysical domination. You better believe this or you’re going to go to hell. Right. Now I have a lot of trouble with that personally. So you want to think clearly about what your dogma is in order to have a shared faith within a community, which helps define a church, right? A community with a shared faith, shared values, shared practice.

Bob (28:04)

Can you have those things? Within Sacred Garden community, we have something we call least dogma. So you hear us working on this stuff. It’s like, well, Sam, if we’re using words, we’re probably using dogma. Like just when I say hello, there are all kinds of cultural assumptions coming along with what that means. So ⁓ I don’t think we can claim no dogma within Sacred Garden Church. ⁓ There’s a church that’s

Bob (28:32)

says they’re a church of no dogma. I think that’s really cool. If they can do that, wonderful, right? But we at least have least dogma within sacred garden community. We’re simply open to the possibility that the sacraments of our church, if we engage them carefully and respectfully, they can connect us to a direct experience of the divine within this lifetime. That’s our shared faith. But what we mean by divine, we don’t say, right? ⁓ Your experience may be different.

Bob (29:01)

We have shared values, care, ⁓ respect, and trust. We have a common practice that moves around a wheel of practice from navigation, preparation, initiation, practice, integration, community integration. ⁓ So this guides our practice. So these are some of the things that bring us together as a community and allow us to, I think, with real sincerity and authenticity, call ourselves a church. Yeah. Is that all making sense?

Sam Believ (29:30)

Definitely, I think what you say about dogma is is a really try thing the only way to start church without dogma ⁓ Would be to start a silent church no communication if you just engage with the plants and and there’s probably zero dogma and still you got to be careful, you know if you have a certain ⁓ Art and your walls and stuff like that they can kind of influence people’s directions. So no dogma is really really difficult something as ⁓

Sam Believ (30:00)

Facilitating myself is something I consciously think about a lot as in What how do you behave in such a way that you don’t make people’s experience about yourself? ⁓ but about you know the the sacrament and ⁓ the larger connection ⁓ So and yeah, you mentioned you know starting a church just to sell mushrooms so that’s not why I’m asking that for I ⁓ was case legal here in Colombia. I’m asking because ⁓ you know for

Sam Believ (30:30)

just out of curiosity because it seems, ⁓ you know, when you think about church, in my opinion, it’s like, wow, you you started a Christianity or something like that. It’s like a big thing to do. it’s like ⁓ to realize that, you know, you can start a church is a very interesting concept. ⁓ But definitely I don’t recommend anyone to just sell mushrooms or buy mushrooms. I think in my opinion, it has to be done in a safe legal setting with good facilitation, which I’m sure ⁓ you’re doing.

Sam Believ (30:59)

⁓ So any notes about what I just said any ideas thoughts

Bob (31:06)

Yeah, I, ⁓ I don’t know. I just appreciated your reflection. Yeah. ⁓ And I love that idea of, ⁓ silent and, and, ⁓ you know, I do identify strongly with my family’s Quaker heritage. So my, my up to my great grandfather were, were Quakers and they had that technique where they would just sort of sit silently and then someone would just speak. And so it’s lovely that you’re, you’re kind of reflecting that back. feel an alignment. And I think that there’s a little bit about the sacred plant work.

Bob (31:35)

that may help us in that direction. The ⁓ sacred plants, now this is my perspective, this is just me shouting, but to me they don’t require a whole lot of made up stuff. If you can just sit ⁓ with a calm and careful and respectful way with the presence of those sacraments, they will open the way for you. They don’t require me to bring a lot of a special prayer that uses only the certain words, right?

Bob (32:04)

And my experience, which I’m not claiming a lineage, but having been really privileged to have been able just to sort of experience different ways of sitting in different areas, a brujas ceremony in the Philippines, or, ⁓ you know, ⁓ an old small sort of daime -like group in Brazil, or a yawanawa ceremony in Bolivia. And they’re actually, they can be very different. The metaphysics and the dogma, the language, they can be really different.

Bob (32:34)

⁓ from place to place, right? But ⁓ the experience of learning, of healing, of divine presence, that will move independently of those different things. This is only my experience, right? ⁓ And so for me, there’s something special about the sacraments of our church because they can open the way to the divine ⁓ independently of the language that I use, right? And so I think that’s really rich and interesting. And may it…

Bob (33:02)

May they guide us in that direction where we may not be so, again, this is not, I’m not representing our church, this is just me thinking, but where we’re not so hung up on ⁓ our particular faith position, then we have to fight each other, right? It’s like, no, you say Allah and I say Jesus, and so now we have to fight, right? Or you say, ⁓ you know, Wachuma and I use a crucifix, right?

Bob (33:31)

And so our sacraments are different and we have to like drive each other off of the planet that we’re so upset about the difference, right? If these sacraments can help us realize maybe the words we use, the names we give, they’re not so important. Maybe, right? It may be an experience that’s really beyond words that ⁓ is the thing ⁓ that we’re seeking, right? And so I personally hope we’re moving in that direction.

Bob (33:59)

Also, I really appreciated your comment about being careful about not sort of making it you. you know, we’re having a ceremony, so let me put my culture into the ceremony so that everyone will be more like me. That’s a really subtle thing because I’m doing that right now, even as we’re talking, right? I’m saying, here’s a way of thinking that may be useful, right? And sharing that. So to become really sensitive to that, I think is important, particularly with these anthogens or psychedelics because they

Bob (34:28)

One thing that I believe they will often do across people and across cultures and categories is they’ll open us to the idea that things can be different. So we’ll have an experience and then during the experience we’ll receive so much information or so much guidance or so much ⁓ whatever that may be that comes through the journey. Then during the journey, it’s like you come back out and you’re like, everything can be really different. If someone is in there feeding you a whole bunch of cultural

Bob (34:58)

perspective, when you come out of that journey, they call it suggestibility, right? You may be a lot more ⁓ open to hearing new ways, different ways, which is lovely. That’s wonderful. But if somebody’s coming in and they’re saying, okay, now that you’ve had the mushrooms, let me tell you, the universe is all like this, you know, there’s a Trinity or there’s ⁓ there’s, you know, ⁓ Brahma or whatever it is that I want to tell you, you know,

Bob (35:26)

You want to be humble about that because ⁓ your voice is probably being heard a lot more loudly. The person’s opened. And so to be sensitive to avoiding manipulation, ⁓ cultism, I’ll call it neo -fundamentalism, right? To me, those things are really important in our space. And I think other people may have different perspectives. They may think it’s really important that my metaphysics is really heard. And I’m not going to tell them that they’re wrong, but

Bob (35:54)

For me, I think it’s important not to be trying to ⁓ manipulate people out of ⁓ anthia journeys into my metaphysics. ⁓

Sam Believ (36:06)

Thank you. ⁓ That’s all very, very, very good information. I’m sure the listeners are enjoying it. ⁓ As once I had an experience in ⁓ Columbia and Amazon where medicine showed me a potential for me to become a healer, not as in a shaman, but like heal people with my hands, like in a one -on -one kind of situation, they kind of gave me the entire manual and I came out the poll after that, didn’t know what to do with it. So I asked many shamans, you know, ⁓

Sam Believ (36:35)

Do you know somebody who can teach me? Do you know what should I do about it? And almost all of them said just this one thing, know, keep drinking the medicine and we’ll tell you ⁓ what you need to do. So in a way there is this unique ability that there’s this one clear source that cannot be polluted and that’s ⁓ the medicines themselves or as you call them, ⁓ sacraments. ⁓ And interestingly enough, you mentioned cultism.

Sam Believ (37:04)

and cults. So my question to you is have you ever been accused because you know religion plus psychedelics I can see a lot of people wanting to use that word have you ever have anyone ever said like you know it’s just you just have a cult and like what would you say to somebody like that?

Bob (37:22)

Right. We know kind of interestingly, here’s another issue that I’ll bring up speaking, being accused of. So I’m really thankful for Sacred Garden Community. have a very, we’re sort of exploring this holacracy model for our leadership. We’re very clear that ⁓ the experience and the healing and the

Bob (37:47)

The relationship is between the practitioner and the sacrament and the practitioner is every member of our community. It’s not that there’s a ⁓ only a priest who is the practitioner. You see what I mean? And everyone else is like a patient. ⁓ Every person in our community is, is a practitioner. So we really want to recognize the leadership, the agency of every member of our community. So all this is really baked in to the community. Also this least dogma as a part of our community.

Bob (38:17)

⁓ All of these things make it less likely for people to see us as a cult. You see what I mean? There’s not an infinitely wise ⁓ priest who’s a member ⁓ of an eternal lineage or something like that in our community. We recognize that we’ve come together as a community ⁓ with these sacraments because we’ve experienced their healing. It’s not that I am the only one who’s experienced that healing.

Bob (38:44)

many members of our community have experienced divine presence with the sacraments. You see what I mean? So there’s not a special priest who knows more than anyone else here. I ⁓ happen to be a little bit older than a lot of folks. I’ve been working with sacred plants for many years so I can give plant talks that people love and talk all about the different plants. ⁓ And I’ve had a good bit of experience in the space, in the presence of the sacraments, so I can help people understand their experiences.

Bob (39:14)

But I’m no different than anyone else. ⁓ I’m just another person who just happened to be a little older and has maybe had a little bit more experience. I’ll share that experience. You can share yours with me, please. And I can learn. We consider ourselves to be a continually learning community because we have least dogma. We don’t already know everything. And so we learn from each other. All of these help protect us from cultism. And then there are real specific things. Like I don’t have perfect power. We have a board and we have checks and balances and we have ethics councils. You see what I mean?

Bob (39:43)

⁓ We have other stewardship. ⁓ I don’t get to just a point. All of the team we have to let the community give thumbs up or down on new team members in all of these things we do to avoid being a cult, right? So I think having transparency, avoiding ⁓ the priestly, you know, sort of. ⁓

Bob (40:04)

like making the Taita or the Onanya or the Curandero or the Shaman, know, as some special being who’s really separate and different from the others. We don’t do that here, right? And so this is also part of the reason why I’ll say we’re a trans modern or a positive postmodern church. We don’t even come from a master lineage, right? A lot of churches will say, we come from a certain special shipibo lineage from Peru. That’s wonderful.

Bob (40:33)

know, that’s if you have that, that’s wonderful for you. That may, that there may be some obscure esoteric knowledge that is associated with the priestly wisdom of that tradition, and that may be useful for that group. That can also be tending a little bit more towards what someone might call cultish if there’s a lineage that really venerates ⁓ its historical masters. You see what I mean? They’re special somehow.

Bob (41:03)

We don’t have that here. We’re just a regular group of people who grew up mostly ⁓ from the West. we realized through LSD and MDMA and others, Changa and the psilocybin mushrooms, particularly Cubensis and Natalensis, that these can be sacraments. And together we’re founding this community, right? To me, that’s very different from a cult. Can you see that?

Sam Believ (41:29)

Yeah, no, I definitely see that and I would never accuse you for being a cult. It’s just since you mentioned that word it’s something that I think about a lot and Yeah, because obviously, you know on the internet you get ⁓ accused of everything, you know if ⁓ if you Promote ayahuasca. They say, know, you’re just a glorified drug ⁓ smuggler or lord whatever or your

Bob (41:40)

It’s fair.

Sam Believ (41:56)

Common that I commonly get is like stop dragging people or like only Jesus can save you and those kinds of things ⁓ but ⁓ So I’m assuming you must have a similar kind of experience ⁓ And yeah, think the the beauty of medicines once again is ⁓ By removing the intermediary between a sacrament and a person You lower the risks of all of those ⁓ negative consequences

Bob (42:23)

Mm -hmm. Yep.

Sam Believ (42:25)

cultism included because if you have a ⁓ In the past what church wanted us to believe is like there was this person Thousands of years ago. He had a sacrament. He wrote a book about it Now you have to believe it and I was like you don’t need a book as long as you have the sacrament That’s pretty clear and I believe this is kind of what you’re doing. Hopefully I’m not putting words in your mouth

Bob (42:49)

You know, I ⁓ love that conversation, and I’m going to ⁓ share this for the Christians that might be seeing this or people who have some Christian heritage. ⁓ I did kind of appreciate this cat, this old Christian character named Martin Luther. He was this guy who basically said, hey, we don’t have to have a priest. ⁓ If you have a Bible, you can read the Bible yourself, right? And you can find your own wisdom from the Bible.

Bob (43:13)

without the priest and that he founded the Methodist Church and some of these churches, maybe Lutheran, I don’t know exactly, but they split off from the Catholic Church, Martin Luther did. And that whole movement was to say, we don’t have to go through the priest for our sacrament. And I thought that was really profound. And I think this is a movement even further in that direction. We don’t even need the Bible that was written by someone who had that experience ⁓ to find our wisdom. We can have that experience directly ⁓ of God.

Bob (43:43)

or of the divine, or of the healing ⁓ wisdom of the universe, whatever language we want to use. And so this to me is really a movement even in the tradition of Luther, right? Because we’re growing closer to God as people rather than as priests. And I think that’s really powerful and positive and hopeful. And ⁓ there are also some interesting challenges because if you don’t do the control strategy that says you have to go to the priest,

Bob (44:11)

Well, then that makes it harder to maintain your institution, right? So there’s a real sort of power -driven temptation ⁓ to say, you know, you got to come to the church and you got to sit in the ceremony with us, with our facilitator, or you’re not going to see God, right? But that’s probably maybe just trying to sort of create power and maintain a position rather than ⁓ growing divine presence.

Bob (44:37)

So within Sacred Garden Community, we offer facilitated ceremonies. We love them. We believe they’re safer. They’re really good for newcomers. But we’re not telling people that they can’t ⁓ have the journey at home with a sitter nearby or something like that, right? So we’re moving in that direction. Also really quickly, that experience, and I’ll say this for folks who are considering founding a church, particularly if it becomes very known, ⁓ but even within your own congregation, there is a lot of opportunity for these experiences of things like

Bob (45:06)

Projection and transference and all that. You were mentioning your experience on the internet with people sort of giving you lot of different, I’ll say, sort of challenges that they’re bringing up. So, there’ll be people who will see me as this really wise savior type and they’ll be disappointed after a little while, ⁓ because I’m not, I’m just a regular person. I have moods, I have temper, you know what I mean? And so people will become really disillusioned. They think that you’re this wise.

Bob (45:36)

But then also there was, you know, someone will say, ⁓ he’s a global capitalist who’s partnering with big pharma to corner the mushroom market. You know, just projection will happen when you get it, when you get, that’s not true by the way. I’ll just, I’ll state, I have no global pharma ⁓ and certainly no interest in patenting psilocybin, but those kinds of things will come to you if you, if you’re in a leadership role in a religious institution, because I think people have a lot of confusion and fear and

Bob (46:05)

and anger and if you kind of are perceived as a leader or even particularly as a religious or spiritual leader, that you can receive a lot of interpretations about who you are that, you know, the person doesn’t even know you, they’ve never met you, but they just see you and then they imagine all these things. So you need to be kind of aware of that ⁓ and be effective at setting self boundaries and emotional boundaries and things if you’re planning on founding a church. Yeah.

Sam Believ (46:31)

Yeah, those are all very valuable ⁓ insights. Projection is something I have experienced firsthand many times, not only in interacting with people on the internet, but sometimes in the work with the medicine, a lot of starts coming up and sometimes it’s projected on you, especially if you’re a certain kind of character, whether you want it or not, ⁓ it’s a part of it. So it’s great to have quite a few podcast episodes talking about the

Sam Believ (47:00)

transference, counter transference and all the niceties of that ⁓ work. In answering my previous questions, ⁓ you mentioned ethics and I think I believe you focus a lot on ethics and ⁓ cultural respect. ⁓ Can you talk to us a little bit about that? What is your approach?

Bob (47:20)

Yeah, boy, I’ll tell you, ⁓ there’s intuition and then you’ll talk and then you’ll learn. it’s like, I, when we’ve, creating our wheel of practice, we include community integration as a part of the wheel of practice. And so sometimes during Sunday service, I’ll mention that community integration in many ways is where you might say the, the, the rubber hits the road or, know, where you really got to walk the walk and, ⁓ you know, sitting in ceremony can be challenging.

Bob (47:49)

Challenging experiences can emerge shame, anger, know, fear. Those things can happen in ceremony. You can move through them. The same things will happen in community, right? ⁓ And, ⁓ and particularly when you have a community like ours, which shares least dogma where we want to be radically inclusive, right? Because we share least dogma. We’re not telling you, you have to believe one thing or another. Everyone is welcome. Right. ⁓ but then we get diverse cultures coming in the door.

Bob (48:19)

We get diverse skin colors, diverse gender orientations or sex and gender kind of orientations. We’ll get ⁓ different metaphysical backgrounds. Like there would be someone who would come in from a very conservative background who may be very offended when they learned that three or four men were naked in a hot tub together after a ceremony. No women present, but these men were naked, right?

Bob (48:46)

And from that person, from their culture, that may be very offensive. this is, I thought it was a safe church, but now I realized that you all are supporting nudity. Well, so the other culture is like, what are you talking about? Anyone can get together and have a hot tub. There’s nothing unsafe about people. Right. So we have different cultures coming into the church and then they’ll be, they can become upset with each other. Right. Because you’re doing things wrong. Well, from that culture, it’s perfectly fine.

Bob (49:16)

from the other culture, it’s really, really dangerous or wrong. So we have to grow that kind of ⁓ insight that we live in this diverse world. And so the actual practice of community integration has really been tempering for me, you know, to experience all of the diversity and the fear and the anger and the experience of not being safe, right? ⁓ When you have diversity, particularly in a

Bob (49:42)

⁓ a nation like the United States where there’s some really hard ⁓ breaks between, for example, people who are primarily white identified or identified as black, right? ⁓ The level of fear and distrust between those groups ⁓ can be very difficult and can emerge in community, right? ⁓

Bob (50:06)

And so if someone wants to say, Hey, you know, I just don’t feel this is safe for me. can’t say I know it is really safe because it’s you who are, who are present. And if you, if you’re in a place where everyone is like a demon around you, it may not be safe for you or the other person. Right. So, so these conditions of potential, ⁓ at least perceived or real harm, they can just emerge out of the presence of difference in community. Right.

Bob (50:35)

And so as a result of this, you know, when we really started growing quickly, that was hard. That was been hard. You know, we’ve had people come into community and not feel safe. Everyone sitting feels like they’re being fine, right? But we can have these kind of, maybe someone is really harmed. So all these things can happen, right? As a result, I’m so thankful. Some of the community of Sacred Garden have helped us put together really robust ethics programs. In the beginning, everyone was just coming to me.

Bob (51:03)

You know, Bob, I don’t feel safe. This person said something and, you know, and I found myself triangulating frequently, trying to help solve between two people who I didn’t really know the detail, but trying, and that doesn’t work. I would recommend to avoid being the one who solves everybody’s ruptures, right? Triangulating. ⁓ So that was all of the six months with people coming to me just to solve their challenges.

Bob (51:29)

And then we have a community member who’s had a lot of experience in a different community. And so he helped Sacred Garden put together a real process. So we have a listening function first, someone who’s just there to listen in a non -judgmental way. ⁓ Karen does a wonderful job with that. Then we have a harmony circle that people can go to. call it a peacemaking circle. ⁓ That’s grounded in at least what are called a lot of Native American practices, right?

Bob (51:56)

that ⁓ are intending to be allow people to be heard if they’re not feeling safe or need to be heard in a safe way, right? And then finally, if ⁓ we can’t move through those things, then we have an ethics council. That is where things get a little rough. People need to make a formal ethics complaint. It becomes more like a adjudicatory, you know, we have to review it and everything goes into confidentiality and all these things happen. That’s really rough. And we’ve had a few ethics.

Bob (52:23)

⁓ Submissions and had to move through ethics processes right over the years. Last thing I’m going say on this is I’m also very thankful to the sacred plane alliance. I mentioned which was incubated, but incubated by that group. Shakuna, but it’s its own group now. ⁓ That it provides external ethical oversight and expectations to sacred garden into a number of other churches. I think it’s more than 20 now. ⁓

Bob (52:47)

So if we have an ethics issue that rises to that ethics complaint level, then we are compelled to share that with the sacred plan Alliance, right? To make sure that we’re not being corrupt, like maybe, ⁓ you know, protecting the facilitator who was accused of, some, ⁓ boundary by violation or something, you know, it’s maybe tempting for groups to kind of protect their leadership because they want the group, they want the group to persist and they’ve got some leader that they’ve invested in. Right. And so.

Sam Believ (52:59)

Thank you.

Bob (53:16)

having external ethics body that keeps us accountable, ⁓ not only to our internal community, but also to external, that’s very useful for us just to keep us honest. Yeah. So there’s a little information about ethics.

Sam Believ (53:31)

That’s not little, think that’s a lot of information and it’s great how much attention you pay to that because let’s compare it to conventional church, you know, there’s especially Catholic Church doesn’t have a good reputation and there’s a lot of things they just sweep under the rug so it would be great if they also had some kind of external oversight. It’s interesting you mentioned naked people in the jacuzzi for those who are very ⁓

Sam Believ (53:59)

afraid of that definitely don’t go to some parts of europe because everyone goes to sauna naked together ⁓ i once had a i built a sauna in one of the previous houses i lived in and i had the german friend visit me and he came in the sauna naked and he came out of sauna naked my wife saw him and she was really really upset ⁓ so very so i understand that managing this ⁓ different culture is is different is difficult ⁓ especially so in u .s. i think u .s. ⁓

Sam Believ (54:28)

now feels very very tense and there’s a lot of cultural trends that maybe are aimed in the opposite direction of resolution like this whole trigger culture ⁓ which reminds me of this ⁓ i interviewed a lady a few episodes before and she said ⁓ i’m not a ⁓ i don’t have a trigger i think that’s ⁓ something more people need to know about

Sam Believ (54:57)

⁓ But yeah, people come to Lawara to drink ayahuasca and most of them aim at healing. Some people kind of ⁓ aim at maybe ⁓ some personal growth. ⁓ What do people seek ⁓ when they join your church?

Bob (55:15)

Right, right. ⁓ Yes. So we have our we have our explicit mission and vision, and then we have the reality too. So explicitly by our mission and vision and our dogma, we’re ⁓ not intending to offer sacred garden community like our dogma doesn’t say we will heal you of your injuries. That’s not in our core dogma. You see what I mean?

Bob (55:43)

Our core dogma is you can experience divine presence. ⁓ We’re open to that possibility. And the experience of divine presence, I will propose to you, is deeply healing, deeply healing the experience of the divine. That mystical experience that can occur within the sacrament is deeply healing of all kinds of fear, anger, shame, ⁓ alienation, ⁓ anxiety. Many of these things will be healed by divine presence.

Bob (56:14)

in my opinion, ⁓ or can be helped deeply. ⁓ But Sacred Garden Community is really, we’re not saying, please come to us with your physical or emotional or mental illness and we will solve that. The sacraments or our practices will heal you of those things. We’re not saying that. In fact, we have a health and suitability screening process, right? So people spend time with us, get to know us. ⁓

Bob (56:42)

new members to spend at least three months and attend at least eight events before that you become confirmed, right? Before you say, yes, I understand the faith and I agree and I want to be a practitioner. After you become confirmed, you become a practitioner. ⁓ When we, to become a practitioner, we have to move you through a health and suitability. So we have a clinical, clinically trained psychologist who does interview of a questionnaire you fill in and we have a medical review, right? And some folks may have a lot of recent

Bob (57:11)

hard trauma, or they may be experiencing what you could call emergence or psychosis, right? Delusional experience. You know, they’re having a lot of mental ⁓ challenges that may be making it difficult for them to sort of participate in day -to -day reality. ⁓ Angry, upset, having been deeply hurt, you know, these things. ⁓ If we meet someone who’s in that space, ⁓ we love them, we welcome them into community, but we may encourage some of those folks to do one -on -one work.

Bob (57:41)

You see what I mean? So if you’re seeking like mental healing of mental health within Sacred Garden community, we would say that’s wonderful. It’s possible that these sacraments may help you, but you may actually want a more medical framework. In other words, you may want to go see a therapist that offers antigens or whatever that may be. You see what I mean? So within Sacred Garden, we’re not claiming to be the group that is healing your physical or mental illnesses.

Bob (58:10)

We may, the practice, I believe, will help remove things that are blocking you from divine presence. And many of the things that may block us from divine presence may, might be called, ⁓ like mental health issues from another perspective, addiction ⁓ or just anger or shame or resentment or, ⁓ you know, having been triggered all the time and never being able to sit in a community and be friendly.

Bob (58:39)

You know, those things may be blocking us from divine presence and the practice may help remove those. So that may be healing in itself, but that’s not what we’re trying to do. That’s not our goal isn’t to heal you of your sickness, rather is to help you move into divine presence where all things are healed, where all diseases are known and all diseases are healed. And honestly, then the disease doesn’t even, it becomes not even important. It’s just, ⁓ it’s almost as if everything becomes a gift of being. Right. So that’s a little framing there.

Sam Believ (59:09)

That makes a lot of sense. Give me some clarity on what you’re doing. Yeah, we’re also very careful with who we receive and not receive because there are some things with, medicine cannot be compatible with. ⁓ Last question I have for you before we wrap up is decriminalize nature. Can you tell us a little bit about that movement?

Bob (59:34)

Yeah, and boy, it’s became much bigger than me. And so if you want to talk about inflation and non inflation, you know, this is one that helps me be humble. ⁓ Sometimes if I want to be if I want to be a little puffy, Albert Hoffman wrote a book called LSD, my problem child. And, you know, I’m not in the category of Albert Hoffman, but sometimes I might almost say decrim nature my problem child a little bit. ⁓ So I was the founding chairperson.

Bob (60:00)

of decrim nature here in Oakland, California, of actually of decrim nature Oakland. So I was the, and that was the first decrim nature, ⁓ all plants and fungi ⁓ and the compounds that may be found within them removed to lowest ⁓ priority for law enforcement, right? ⁓ That was actually three of the five board were sacred garden community members and I was the chair. So it was really a sacred garden community movement.

Bob (60:28)

It was a little different than I feel decrim nature became from Oakland. This was like a quiet prayer for integrity with the city. Like, ⁓ for some reason I’d been having a number of practices where I would be sitting in meditation. And this is unusual for me, Sam, it doesn’t normally happen where towards the end of the meditation, these really clear words would come into my head as if they were coming from somewhere else. Right. And they were saying, you can sit with the elders of your village.

Bob (60:56)

And here I am in Oakland, downtown Oakland. I’m like, this isn’t really a village and I don’t know who the elders are. What in the world does that mean? Right. And I was just like, what is, who am I supposed to sit with the elders of my village? But then I was giving a lot of plant talks. This was back in 2019, 18, 19, I think. And, this cat, Carlos Plazola came to one of my plant talks and he had been the chief of staff for a city council member and he’d been a big, ⁓

Bob (61:24)

He still is a ⁓ real estate developer. So he put big developments in all kinds of districts around the city and he knew all the city council. Right. He came to one of my plant talks after the plant talk. I’ll make the story short, ⁓ but there’s a lot more, but to spare. He basically was like, Hey, you know, I can get you a sit down with city council members if you’d like, pretty much any of them. Then a little bell went on in my head, which was like, ⁓ this is sitting with the elders of your village. Right.

Bob (61:53)

And so I was considering the city council as elders in a sincere way, like as elders of this village. And then there was some other motivations, which we have like 80 year old members in this community. ⁓ One who has since passed would occasionally get dizzy and sort of get kind of pass out with cannabis, even when we’re just having community events. You know, this guy who has kind of been in his mid eighties was fragile.

Bob (62:21)

And so I really felt like I needed to be able to call 911 without being afraid and putting all the altar away and, you know, all that. So there was this desire to be, to grow safety, to grow integrity with the elders of our village. ⁓ Just to be honest with our practice, that was really guiding me and the Sacred Garden leadership into the Decrim movement. And the city council of Oakland really, I believe, heard that.

Bob (62:50)

You know, in fact, they even said, you all came to us with such a respectful approach. We thought maybe you were going to be trying to burn everything down or, you know, like be a bunch of really upset activists, but you just came in this really loving and respectful way. And we really appreciate that. And it was unanimous, you know, so it was just like an answered prayer that the whole decrim in Oakland was just such a beautiful flowing movement. And I want to give Carlos and then Larry Norris, the two non SGC members, a lot of credit. They came in hard.

Bob (63:20)

with social media and organizing, you know, and clipboards and all this, right? Sacred Garden was more prayer and sincerity. These other guys were like activist energy, you know, so three, five board members, two non -SGC, and then Carlos and Larry were the two non -SGC. Very active. ⁓ After we made the resolution in Oakland, Carlos and Larry felt a very strong and expansive

Bob (63:49)

let’s go national, you know, and all that. For the Sacred Garden community, that was a total surprise because we’re like, we’re just asking the elders of our village for integrity and safety. ⁓ We’re not a political action group trying to save the world or something, right? We just want to have safe, quiet practice here in Oakland without being burdened. ⁓ so ⁓ Carlos in particular, but also Larry have a much more sort of politicized, kind of far left wing.

Bob (64:18)

⁓ A lot of challenges with the pharmaceutical anti -pharm, ⁓ a different energy, like a real hard activist energy. You see what I mean? So we started kind of, after the Oakland happened, they really wanted to go in this aggressive activist kind of direction. And the Sacred Garden community just basically resigned from the board. And ⁓ decrimination is still going on. think Carlos has actually now left decrim nature as well.

Sam Believ (64:31)

Mm

Bob (64:47)

And I’m really thankful for its good work, but it’s taken a much more, it ⁓ varies from city to city, decriminate your kind of city, county led, right? ⁓ But it’s gotten a lot more political, a lot more sort of divided politically. And ⁓ that’s okay. ⁓ But it’s just been interesting how that evolved. ⁓ Carlos really wanted to come in and take leadership and I thought that was fine. And ⁓ so I let go of… ⁓

Bob (65:14)

the decrim leadership in I think 2020 maybe it was.

Sam Believ (65:19)

⁓ Interesting it’s good. I guess it’s a good wise decision because there’s there’s a phrase I’ve heard somewhere that Revolution always eats its children and someone that’s just like when you’re in this big change then inevitably you kind of get Sucked by this wave. don’t know if it makes any sense Bob. Thank you so much for this episode. It was ⁓ Really informative very educational very entertaining ⁓

Sam Believ (65:46)

Where can people find more about yourself if they want to find you on social media or maybe join your church if they’re in the Auckland area?

Bob (65:55)

Yeah, thanks for asking, Sam. And thank you for ⁓ this time. I’ve really enjoyed getting to know you a little bit, too. Yeah, thank you for this time. And if folks want to get to know us better, it’s easy. You can go to sacred garden. That’s just one word, sacred garden dot L I F E. So sacred garden dot life ⁓ online, and then you’ll find everything you need to find. ⁓ If you put your email in the list, we keep it confidential. We are a sincere church.

Bob (66:24)

Our practice is legally defended. ⁓ you know, we’re practicing within, we assert in our attorneys that we’re practicing within the laws. We’re very high standard and careful. ⁓ We keep you confidential, but if you want to put your email in the ⁓ website, you’ll start getting a newsletter twice a month and invitations to different events like a book club and Sunday service and things like that. So check out sacred garden .life and put your email in and we’ll be cooking.

Sam Believ (66:55)

⁓ Yeah, before we wrap up, I wanted to say thank Madhu. Madhu is a volunteer here at Loira. He came a bit more than a year ago as a patient, really loved it. Now he came back. He’s here doing good work and he’s also member of your church and he put us together for this conversation. So Madhu, if you’re listening, you are appreciated.

Bob (67:16)

Thank you, Madhu. Love you, brother.

Sam Believ (67:20)

Thank you, Bob. Great episode, guys. You’ve been listening to Alaska Podcast, as always with you, Josem Believ. ⁓ It was a pleasure and I will see you in the next episode.

Bob (67:30)

Thank you, Sam. Big love.

Sam Believ (67:33)

Okay, so I finished the recording. One thing that is concerning to me, for some reason it’s showing

Book questionnaire 

https://ayahuascaincolombia.com/book-form/

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with Nick Courtright. Sam interviews Nick about how his Ayahuasca experience changed his life and Nick interviews Sam about a book Sam is going to write.

Nick Courtright is an American poet, educator, and essayist whose work fuses philosophical inquiry with lyrical expression. He is the founder and CEO of Atmosphere Press, a hybrid publisher dedicated to authors’ rights. As an author, Nick has written several acclaimed books, including Let it Be Light and The Forgotten World.

Topics discussed:

Introduction to Nick’s journey with Ayahuasca and initial motivations (01:26)

Personal transformation through Ayahuasca at LaWayra (03:54)

The unexpected side effects: quitting alcohol and running a marathon (04:48)

Atmosphere Press: ethics and the publishing process (07:04)

Integrating Ayahuasca experiences into daily life (18:14)

The inspiration behind Sam’s upcoming book (22:38)

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats, go to http://www.lawayra.com.

Find more about Nick Courtright at http://www.atmospherepress.com.

Transcript

Nick Courtright (00:00)

Ask me about it, ⁓ for sure.

Sam Believ (00:04)

Hi guys and welcome back to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always with you the host Sambiliyev. ⁓ Today I’m having a conversation with Nick Courtright. Nick is an American poet, ⁓ educator and essayist known for his literary work that blends philosophical inquiry with lyrical expression. He has authored several books including Let it Be Light and The Forgotten World, both of which have been received in a well received in a literary community. ⁓

Sam Believ (00:31)

His work explores themes such in existence, identity and the human experience through a meditative and reflective lens. Now you kind of see why we have him on because very, very related to the ayahuasca work. ⁓ And Nick is also a founder of and CEO of Atmosphere Press, which is an acclaimed literary hybrid publisher dedicated to authors’ rights. ⁓ Nick, ⁓ welcome to the show.

Nick Courtright (01:00)

Thanks for having me, glad to be here.

Sam Believ (01:02)

Most importantly, ⁓ Nick is not just a publisher or just an author. Nick is also one of our previous patients as we like to call them at Loire. So ⁓ Nick, tell us a little bit about yourself ⁓ and kind of tie it into what brought you to work with the plant medicine.

Nick Courtright (01:26)

Yeah, so I, for ⁓ years, you know, like even as far back as high school, I was always interested in the fabric of reality. did ⁓ speeches for my speech class ⁓ back in high school about, you know, how everybody saw everything differently. And we were all sort of filtering reality through our own individual lens. So even when I was young, I was, you know, really interested in this idea of like what on earth is going on here, right?

Nick Courtright (01:56)

⁓ And then over the course of life, know, good things, bad things, you know, like having anxiety, reading about philosophy, you know, trying to deal with difficult things in life, you know, such as divorce or like being a parent, you know, all of these sort of things, like ultimately, I, you know, led me to try to, you know, find some truth in the world or, you know, have some different experiences. And I’m, ⁓

Nick Courtright (02:25)

somebody who travels the world a lot. That’s what my most recent poetry collection is about. ⁓ But really, ⁓ going to Columbia, trying Ayahuasca, I ⁓ didn’t fully know totally what I was getting myself into. I was kind of like, this is gonna be an adventure, ⁓ but I didn’t realize that it wasn’t just gonna be an adventure. It was gonna be a great opportunity to process stuff that I hadn’t fully processed to…

Nick Courtright (02:54)

heal from some things that were problematic in my past. ⁓ And definitely, you know, it made a big difference for me coming.

Sam Believ (03:04)

You’re a real life poet that’s not often you meet one. And I’m happy you chose Lawyra to come ⁓ for your ayahuasca experience. And just shortly, ⁓ what did it do for you? And I know you’re coming back in January. What is the ⁓ next chapter?

Nick Courtright (03:08)

Ha

Nick Courtright (03:25)

Yeah, so like I said, I went there with no like big expectations. Like I remember during the first, you know, word circle, people talking about like, what’s your intention? Like, what are you trying to accomplish? And I was sort of like, well, you know, like, my life’s pretty good. You know, I like run my own business, you know, I got a beautiful wife, I’ve got good kids, like, you know, I wasn’t dealing with any sort of ⁓ super problematic thing. ⁓ I, but then, you know, during the process,

Nick Courtright (03:54)

I ended up sort of realizing that there were things that I needed to work through, like, for example, my divorce that happened a decade ago and a lot of like forgiveness mutually, like my relationship with my parents, things like that. ⁓ And the sort of result coming out of it has really been amazing. Like, for example, ⁓ I ⁓ quit drinking.

Nick Courtright (04:18)

you know, like I just like stopped. Like I wasn’t really drinking a lot before, like, like, but I did, I did drink. I was like a normal person, like out there drinking regularly, but just sort of ⁓ as a side effect ⁓ of the Ayahuasca experience at Lawyra, I just was like, I don’t need alcohol anymore. It just wasn’t something that I needed. ⁓ And that sort of also led me towards just a sort of a greater health journey. And this year, like,

Nick Courtright (04:48)

two months ago I ran a marathon. Like that’s insane. That was like never on my radar at all before going to Lawyra. So I was going there to be like, I’m gonna like try this drug and I’m gonna trip and it’s gonna be crazy. And then I’m gonna tell everybody how crazy it was. I wasn’t expecting that it was gonna lead me to, you know, not drinking anymore and running a marathon, but that’s what it did. ⁓ So I think it’s interesting. And one of the things you said,

Nick Courtright (05:17)

at the Loira was, you know, that it’s not necessarily going to give you, you know, what you want, but it is going to give you what you need. And I really feel like that was kind of the result that I got.

Sam Believ (05:31)

⁓ That’s a really nice side effect you got and that’s actually more common than you would think people coming ⁓ drinking ayahuasca for whatever reason and then realizing they’re not drinking alcohol anymore which is extremely nice and what you said about you know coming just to experiment and sort of maybe looking ⁓ for this new experience, kind of new jungle style high ⁓ and then finding a lot ⁓ in it but however

Sam Believ (05:59)

One of the reasons I want to write a book and we kind of talk about it later You know what what’s the topic of this episode all about is for that to kind of explain to people? What I was can really is and what it can do for you and? ⁓ How to do it right whether they come drink it a little wire or somewhere else so a little I kind of went ahead and Shared the little secret, but yeah this episode of the podcast will be a lot about the book ⁓

Sam Believ (06:27)

Nick when you came to Loire and after having his experience he said if you ever want to write a book I’ll help you publish it and back then I don’t think I ever thought about writing a book ⁓ but that thought as a parasite festered in my brain and recently when Nick messaged me and said he’s coming back I was like I felt like I’m ready to write a book and I couldn’t sleep the thoughts started coming the phrases the parts and ⁓

Sam Believ (06:56)

But yeah, Nick, first let’s talk about ⁓ your publishing company because I know it’s not a regular one.

Nick Courtright (07:04)

Yeah, yeah. So I started back in 2015 Atmosphere Press, like I used to be a college professor. That’s what I was for a dozen years. I taught all sorts of literature, creative writing, freshman composition, all of that for a dozen years. And then I just started helping writers sort of as a side gig. It was just a little side hustle I had helping writers and then, you know, published one book and it was sort of

Nick Courtright (07:30)

Interestingly enough, it was about the universe and the meaning of life. That’s why the press is called Atmosphere Press. It’s sort of started with this very, you know, ethereal sort of mystical philosophical sort of perspective. ⁓ And then it just grew and grew. And now here we are nine years later, we’ve published more than 1200 books ⁓ across all genres where an author sort of forward press, it’s all author rights based.

Nick Courtright (08:00)

so authors keep the rights to their work. ⁓ I, know, authors are very involved in the process, the design, the editorial, the publicity, all of that. Cause I knew I wanted it to be something that was ethical, that was like, you know, straightforward where authors would, you know, sort of contribute financially to hiring professionals to make their book really awesome. ⁓ and it was, you know, sort of one of those happy surprises that happens in life.

Nick Courtright (08:28)

I were, I wasn’t trying to be an entrepreneur. I wasn’t trying to be, you know, a big publisher or whatever. It just kind of happened. ⁓ And I think it’s interesting how that sort of really works with an Ayahuasca experience is just like the authenticity of it, the active service part of it. ⁓ And also in a sense, like writing a book, publishing a book, it is like a therapeutic process.

Nick Courtright (08:57)

of taking something that’s inside of you and transforming it into an artifact and that is part of who you are. ⁓ So I think that that’s a really beautiful experience that ⁓ I and my team foster through Atmosphere Press. And then similarly, that same kind of journey of discovery can happen through Ayahuasca.

Sam Believ (09:22)

⁓ Something interesting you mentioned which is ⁓ how you kind of never really plan to start a publishing company and Because of that you have more authenticity, you know, we kind of called this synchronicity in In the medicine space so same thing happened to me. I never planned to start now as a retreat nothing that kind of gives people comfort because I think if they know it and if obviously they trust me when I say it they kind of like yeah, it happened to me. It’s like you you’re

Sam Believ (09:52)

you’re being led on a certain path, so it’s like a higher meaning to it. And then, you you never know, maybe you became a publisher because somebody needs to write a book because it needs to change the world. Not saying it’s going to be me, but ⁓ just an idea. ⁓ So, yeah, it’s nice to be guided by in life by something bigger than you. It gives you you sort of comfort. And that’s a lot what you work with through Ayahuasca.

Sam Believ (10:20)

And when you were here at Loire, you know, what made you ask me that question about the book? ⁓ What made you think, you know, is, what, yeah, just tell me.

Nick Courtright (10:33)

Yeah, so I think it was just, I mean, it was such a, you know, powerful experience. And was a powerful experience for everybody there. There were 25 people there and everybody was just like, had their minds blown. And I know that that’s happened for many, many people, you know, over the course of time, you can look up the Google reviews. It’s crazy, right? ⁓ You know, not too many places have like better, you know, score than my company, but Loira does. So props on that.

Nick Courtright (11:02)

⁓ so, you know, it was just something where it’s like, wow, there’s a lot of education to be had here. And in, know, Western medicine, a lot of times, you know, we’re like, you know, using pharmaceuticals to try to help people. ⁓ you know, we’re, you know, not necessarily treating ourselves super well, but doing something at a place like the wire where there’s medicine is a big part of it. Cause it, you know, opens up your neural pathways, increases neuroplasticity, you know, it’s sort of.

Nick Courtright (11:33)

pulls the blinders off and sort of, you know, helps you confront what it is that’s really going on with you. ⁓ I think that that part’s amazing. And the fact that you had a business, you were sort of the one who was making this happen for all of these people. It was clear that you had, you know, a lot of experience and that there was an opportunity here to help, you know, a whole lot of people. ⁓ If only they sort of understood.

Nick Courtright (12:02)

more what they could get out of this kind of experience.

Sam Believ (12:06)

Definitely there’s a lot of education that needs to be done and I think that what makes me want to write that book is I see that there’s a lot of PhDs or people Smart people writing about ayahuasca. There’s a lot of people that had their own experience that write about an ayahuasca But I don’t think there is enough people that have seen transformational experience of thousands of people and guided them through it and from the point of view of like

Sam Believ (12:33)

understanding how to do it properly and what really works and then write a book. So I guess that’s why it makes sense to me and ⁓ thank you for giving me that idea because I’m really excited now to write a book and as you said writing a book is this process, this healing process in itself and as I am slowly scribbling ideas ⁓ in my notebook I realize that I’m filling up empty spaces and blanks that I have in my

Sam Believ (13:00)

knowledge, I’m doing more research and I’m kind of creating this more succinct model. So let’s switch this interview around from me asking you questions to now you asking your questions. You know, as a publisher, ⁓ what would you want to know from me in order to ⁓ make sense whether this book even needs to be written? And then obviously for those who are listening would really love ⁓ if after you finish listening to this episode, ⁓

Sam Believ (13:30)

I’ll leave a link in the show notes to a forum where you can give me your feedback because I need to ⁓ know your feedback. But later on that.

Nick Courtright (13:42)

Yeah, yeah, I think it’s, ⁓ you know, it’s, it’s just a great topic. And I think one of the things you mentioned is really spot on is that out there in the current marketplace, there is, there are bunches of books that are written from like, more of a medical perspective, or like a chemical perspective, right about like, you know, MAO and inhibitors, you know, or whatever, and like, that sort of thing. And then there are also

Nick Courtright (14:08)

They’re your firsthand testimonies where people are like, I saw the stars sparkling, you know, or whatever, you know, but the idea that in a sense, you know, you’ve been a witness to many, like almost in a sense, like a large scale clinical trial, ⁓ right? ⁓ Is a really sort of interesting, you know, piece of the puzzle. So I guess one question I have for you is,

Nick Courtright (14:36)

How would you go about incorporating some of the, you know, transformative things that you’ve witnessed people experience into the…

Sam Believ (14:48)

So I’ve been thinking about that a lot about how to structure the book and what I think I would do is ⁓ start with just a general explanation of what it is, how it works, just to kind of make people understand that this book is for them. So before I even go into specific stories and let’s say somebody who’s reading that book is… ⁓

Sam Believ (15:13)

is depressed but then all of a sudden there’s a story about somebody overcoming alcoholism so they’ll be like boring you know that’s not for me so what i would start with is like ⁓ explain ⁓ it would be like before your ayahuasca experience during your ayahuasca experience after your ayahuasca experience so the i’m thinking about including 10 to maybe 20 stories and after ayahuasca experience part maybe i’ll mention them shortly in the beginning just for motivation sakes

Sam Believ (15:43)

but kind of go people I interviewed, people that gave us testimonials, people I know personally, we can, we’ll even throw in your story there about how you stopped drinking and all the good stuff. So just like firsthand accounts of people overcoming specific issues and telling their stories. Cause I think people like hearing stories. And obviously the good part is that I have most of them ⁓ on video or in a podcast format. then maybe I could smartly include some links so people can go and actually see, but ⁓

Sam Believ (16:12)

That would definitely be a part of it. mostly I would, as you say, it’s kind of like a ⁓ one person study, but I would include mostly like a meta analysis of things, not because I actually know how to make a meta analysis, but because, you know, if you ask me a question, my brain gives you an answer because of things I’ve seen and experienced and heard and, know, countless word circles, hundreds, if not thousands of hours of listening to people describing their experiences. So I kind of have that wisdom now thanks to.

Sam Believ (16:41)

being there for so long and I can kind of give people that motivation.

Nick Courtright (16:48)

Yeah, so what sorts of, what are some of the biggest transformations that you’ve seen that you think might be a part of?

Sam Believ (16:56)

I number one depression, ⁓ number two anxiety, addiction, ⁓ sometimes physical ailments, a lot of times ⁓ finding direction in life. You know in Loire we say our motto is connect, heal, grow. So from the healing point of view, everything physical and mental, just so many different stories I can’t even recall them all. And even physical healing, know a lot of

Sam Believ (17:26)

autoimmune issues, gut issues, ⁓ skin issues, ⁓ every basically every disease mental or physical that starts with emotions ayahuasca goes there and somehow massages it out of you obviously not ayahuasca itself with integration as well and integration would be a big part of the book as well ⁓ but not from a theoretical point of view but from what actually worked

Sam Believ (17:54)

for people and for myself included, because I am going through my own journey ⁓ and I can attest to many things with the first hand experience, including depression and lack of direction in life.

Nick Courtright (18:08)

Tell me a bit more about integration and how that would feature in the book specifically.

Sam Believ (18:14)

So obviously in ⁓ every retreat we teach about integration. have a ⁓ number of podcast episodes about integration, ⁓ if you’re not, because integration is sort of one of those ⁓ overly talked about topics, but in short, integration is how you take your iOS experience and then bring it back to your real life and kind of make them on the same level. So it’s not just like, here’s my life, here’s my iOS experience, two separate things, never connected. It’s like how to take.

Sam Believ (18:44)

Core lessons and bring them into the into your life, but mostly it’s about forming habits ⁓ actually how to do stuff in such a way that you don’t ⁓ That you keep doing it because integration is you know You do your Alaska ceremony I was to treat for one week and then your integration is the next year before you come and My question to you Nick How was your integration process you because I think it was what a bit more than a year since you’re coming back now

Nick Courtright (19:14)

Yeah, so I was there ⁓ in January. So it will be like exactly a year, pretty much. ⁓ And yeah, I think one thing that really helped me a lot was the fact was that the diet, you know, was very helpful. ⁓ Because I had to, you know, quit caffeine, and I had to quit alcohol, ⁓ I, know, before coming, and then obviously was not on those things there. And then it was like, when I got out, I was like, it’s

Nick Courtright (19:44)

I’ll just finish out dry January, you know? And by the time January was over, I was just like over it, you know? So I think that, you know, integration starts like almost in a weird way, like before the experience, right? Like I was going to work with you before you even do it, right? Because you need to prepare for it, you know, and then, you know, you sort of chart behavior and then the neuroplasticity is so high that anything that you’re sort of setting in motion

Nick Courtright (20:14)

like in the immediate aftermath can really take root. Like I also like quit caffeine, which is like freaking insane. You know, like that I never would have liked. I was drinking like multiple cups of coffee when I was like 16 and now I’m in my forties. I hadn’t gone like two days without coffee and like literally decades, ⁓ you know? ⁓ So I think that was a big part. ⁓ And you know, thinking about it, you know,

Nick Courtright (20:43)

going back and listening to the music, you know, there was like a recording from a session that I was at. That was a really helpful part to sort of like put me back in that place to review the notes that I had written. ⁓ I do think, you know, it is, it doesn’t, you know, it’s difficult to make it last forever, right? You know, I think it is like with a lot of things and that’s why I’m going back. It’s like getting a booster shot, right?

Sam Believ (21:10)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Courtright (21:11)

⁓ is really helpful in this time, you know, I’m planning on like going deeper in like having more intentionality. Like I know some things that I want to get out of it this time. Whereas last time I was sort of, you know, wandering in like thinking it was just an adventure. ⁓ so yeah, I think that, you know, integration is an ongoing lasting process. ⁓ and you know, you need.

Sam Believ (21:37)

Yeah, now you know why you’re coming and hopefully in your preparation for your next visit you will be maybe reading small parts of the book that I’m writing and you’ll be next level ready so you will be the patient zero.

Nick Courtright (21:53)

⁓ Patient zero sounds dangerous, yeah, ⁓ I remember, you know, like thinking about Lyuaira as sort of like the the world’s strangest hospital, right? ⁓ And, you know, and you do refer to people like as patients, and that’s like an interesting way of thinking about it. But like, in a sense, if everyone is there to heal, you know, that is an appropriate term. ⁓ So in terms of the

Sam Believ (22:21)

Everyone’s there to heal whether they know it or not including yourself. Yeah

Nick Courtright (22:25)

⁓ Yeah, yeah, I didn’t know it. Yeah, I was like, they’ve got a swimming pool, you know. ⁓ You know, it wasn’t necessarily like you’re going to like confront some deep stuff. But, you know, that’s interesting. So I guess in terms of the your book, I what sort of ⁓ timeline are you thinking of in terms of getting this thing ready?

Sam Believ (22:38)

Mm-hmm.

Sam Believ (22:50)

I would say the sooner the better. ⁓ Once I finally got this clarity that the world needs that book, now I’m like yeah, world really needs that book because ⁓ I want to ⁓ write a book for people who are ⁓ on the verge. I want to write a book that you would want to… ⁓ If you already had ayahuasca, I want to write a book that you wish you read before you had your first ayahuasca experience. That kind of book. ⁓

Sam Believ (23:19)

It’s a book that answers all your questions and kind of helps you do it right. ⁓ So I think the sooner the better. would say I would like to ⁓ have some kind of manuscript or ⁓ something readable ⁓ before January. So let’s say this year, which means that you’d be able to read it not as a publisher, but of course, partially, but also as somebody that is going to have an iOS experience. So you’d have an

Sam Believ (23:47)

extra motivation. think I know you, I think you have a lot of books thrown at you that you have to read. This is different so that you can even use it yourself and then can give me productive feedback. And then the rest of it depends on you. If you want to publish it, then hopefully 2025 is the year where I have a book, physical one.

Nick Courtright (24:10)

Yeah, I think it is good and I think it is helpful because there are plenty of ayahuasca user guides and stuff like that out there. But I think there are lots of seemingly redundant books about all sorts of topics, but there’s always that individual angle. And I think the way that it’s done at Lawyra is

Nick Courtright (24:38)

just a really like fantastic way of approaching it and like thinking about it. It’s not overly clinical. You know, it has an element of like Western healing to it, you know, and like community building, but then also, you know, is obviously like very authentic, you know, with a lot of like traditional elements as well. So I think that there’s, there’s a lot, you know, that can be added and that can really sort of help people prepare for the experience and also

Nick Courtright (25:07)

you know, be useful to them in the aftermath.

Nick Courtright (25:14)

So what are you going to call it?

Sam Believ (25:17)

⁓ Actually, ⁓ what I’m gonna do is just read all the title ideas. So once again, I’m gonna make a forum and ⁓ a comment section for this podcast episode. So guys, you please go ahead and let me know what you think about the title and about everything else that we’re gonna share. Here are the possible titles. Reasonable Ayahuasca, the Ayahuasca Book.

Sam Believ (25:44)

How I learned to stop worrying and love ayahuasca. How to actually heal with ayahuasca. Things I wish I knew before trying ayahuasca. A.I. ayahuasca as in A.I. ⁓ Ten years of therapy in one week. Healing with ayahuasca. Ayahuasca is for everyone. Read this book before you try ayahuasca. ⁓ Is ayahuasca right for you? ⁓ Ayahuasca for the first timers. Ayahuasca for normies.

Sam Believ (26:13)

ayahuasca is calling ayahuasca is calling you actually the last one came up to me tonight when I couldn’t sleep I have a newborn but also just my brain keeps going back to to the book ideas and I like this one a lot what do you think yourself personally

Nick Courtright (26:30)

of which one the ayahuasca is calling you.

Sam Believ (26:32)

I was just calling or I was just calling you.

Nick Courtright (26:36)

⁓ I think it’s, I think it’s good. think that they have a lot of like good candidates there. think obviously like seeing the structure of the book, you know, is going to be really important to see like how the parts are broken down, how the chapters are broken down. Cause you don’t want the sort of the tail to wag the dog, right? You know, so ⁓ the title is going to have to follow it. I think in terms of marketability, you know, like healing with Ayahuasca, you know, would probably.

Sam Believ (26:55)

Yeah.

Nick Courtright (27:05)

you know, get a good bit of traction. Cause I think that that does sort of tap into the idea of like, this is, you know, a methodology that can, you know, have big effects for you. Obviously that book is not necessarily going to appeal to people who are, you know, going ⁓ to do ayahuasca as an adventure, right? Or like people who are just like doing it to check some interesting thing off their list, right? They are going to get healed by it.

Nick Courtright (27:35)

you know, but they aren’t necessarily knowing that before they go there. So I think it’ll be interesting. It’ll be really great to, you know, see what other people’s, you know, insights are on, you know, which ones. And that’s one thing I know with Atmosphere Press anyway, with any author who works with us, I think probably a good solid like quarter of the books that we end up publishing, the book title changes during

Nick Courtright (28:03)

the production process because they’ll go through editorial meetings and it’s like, actually, we want to change that. We want to throw a subtitle on there and we work collaboratively with the author. And then of course, like the marketing department and all of that to try to think about like, what is going to be, you know, the best way to position this book to have the type of impact that you want to have.

Sam Believ (28:26)

Definitely, ⁓ I’m excited learning more about that.

Nick Courtright (28:30)

Yeah, it’s a whole ⁓ giant pile. And of course, you know, writing it, you know, I’ve had four of my books published and writing a book is ⁓ definitely a labor of love. So if you’re wanting to get done by the new year, you’re gonna have your work cut out for you. ⁓ it’s totally doable. And you have a lot of, you know, great content, you know, from the podcasts, you know, that’s a lot of like golden content from a lot

Nick Courtright (29:00)

testimonials ⁓ that you have on Google reviews, for example, if you could get permission to mine those for pieces and claims that you could use. mean, there’s a lot of content that you can deploy.

Sam Believ (29:17)

Definitely. Any other questions, Nick?

Nick Courtright (29:19)

Yeah. Yeah, I think, you know, one thing I’m curious ⁓ to understand more about ⁓ is how do you anticipate that this book will ⁓ alter the sort of experience of people going to Lwai?

Sam Believ (29:41)

So the book that I want to write, I just want it to be kind of as an exhaustive ⁓ guide in a way that you will kind of position you. You will know more about Ayahuasca than some of the facilitators. Like the idea is you’ll be so, so ready. So when you come to Lawyra and let’s say I’m going through my normal introduction and guides, you’ll know everything and more.

Sam Believ (30:11)

It’s basically this book will give you so much trust with the medicine. It’ll give you so much understanding on how to manage your expectations. It will give you understanding how to set your intention. It will give you stories like everything, everything you need to just ⁓ be like 100 % ready. So it’s kind of like book slash course in a way because it will, it will.

Sam Believ (30:38)

⁓ My plan is to not have anything missed there anything that comes to using ayahuasca to actually heal and grow as well So ⁓ that’s that that’s what comes to me to mind when you ask that question

Nick Courtright (30:51)

Yeah, I think it’ll be great. I’m definitely looking forward to seeing that and to being a part of it. And should I show the tattoo?

Sam Believ (31:02)

yeah, please do.

Nick Courtright (31:04)

⁓ So there’s that.

Sam Believ (31:07)

For those who watching the video, he’s showing a Lawyra logo, the logo of the retreat, same that I have on my t-shirt. ⁓ that’s really cool to see when people, their experience was so significant that they wanna put it on your skin. ⁓ That’s really cool, Nick. ⁓ You’re one of the very few.

Nick Courtright (31:15)

You

Nick Courtright (31:23)

Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. I mean, it was definitely like, ⁓ I’m not, I don’t have like a million tattoos or anything. So it was like, you know, a significant thing, you know, but as as I got back, I think it was like part of the integration experience. It’s like, remember this, you know, like remember this process, remember like sort of the, you know, the piece that, you know, I came to. and I think it’s good. I think it’s also like helped me.

Sam Believ (31:39)

huh.

Nick Courtright (31:52)

I, you know, be a better publisher and better business owner as well. ⁓ Cause now like, if there are any authors out there, you know, if you end up submitting a manuscript to atmosphere press, like we’re going to try to treat you really well, you know, like we’re going to try to treat you with respect throughout that entire journey. And I think that, you know, that was, ⁓ those were beliefs that I had before ayahuasca.

Nick Courtright (32:19)

but Ayahuasca just reinforced them more that we wanted to give to people. We wanted to be more generous. We wanted to be more helpful. We wanted to be more dynamic and inclusive and like thoughtful and sensitive and all of these other things. So it all kind of, you know, works together.

Sam Believ (32:37)

The love and the connection is definitely something ayahuasca teaches you. ⁓ So I want to ask the people that are listening, know, what book would you want to read ⁓ about ayahuasca? Would you ⁓ even want to read a book? know, maybe I’m just, maybe feel free. I’ll give you the completely anonymous forum to fill. You can tell me everything you think. Maybe there is no need for a book.

Sam Believ (33:06)

Maybe there is too many books already. Maybe there is something else you need. So I’m just going to tell you shortly ⁓ what I want to write a book about. And then you can also tell me which all of those things are interesting and which are not. So basically, I want to write a book for people that have done ayahuasca a few times and just want to do it better. Or people have never done ayahuasca. So book to motivate people to try it for the first time. Book that kind of teaches you that

Sam Believ (33:36)

ayahuasca is for everyone of course not everyone but almost everyone but most likely for you and Because you know, there’s a lot of like people think that it’s only for a certain kind of people Yeah, educate people how to do it. Right avoiding common pitfalls I wanted to provide most complete most holistic most up-to-date most down-to-earth explanation how ayahuasca healing actually works so nothing

Sam Believ (34:01)

know too woo woo but also not too scientific stuff that actually works and so yeah and of course ⁓ hopefully get people motivate them to come and drink ayahuasca and ⁓ would be lovely if they come to lawara as well so that’s that’s what i want to write a book about and you guys can let me know what what would you want this book to be about if you think there is a good idea to write a book

Nick Courtright (34:28)

Yeah, and I think the real trouble that you’re going to be in, Sam, is when you realize that you need to write more than one. ⁓

Sam Believ (34:36)

Yeah, so in choosing the title I need to also consider to make sure it rhymes with the future titles Yeah

Nick Courtright (34:43)

⁓ Well, like you were just saying, you know, ayahuasca is for everyone. Like that’s a great title, right? Like that would also be great. You know, so there’s the, you know, the healing with ayahuasca, you know, could really lean into like the sort of trauma focus, you know, and then the ayahuasca is for everyone could lean into like the community focus and like, you know, I mean, there’s, there are a lot of different things. Cause one thing that you

Sam Believ (34:50)

Yeah.

Nick Courtright (35:11)

almost in a sense want to be careful for is not to try to write the book that’s the book for everyone. Right. Cause then anytime we encounter an author who’s like, well, who’s your target audience? And they’re like, everybody. It’s like, well, if it’s everybody, it’s nobody. Right. So it almost like makes more sense to like have books, like multiple shorter books that are focused towards specific, you know, subsections ⁓ of, know, your potential.

Sam Believ (35:27)

Mm-hmm.

Sam Believ (35:37)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Courtright (35:41)

audience. But of course, that’s a pain in the ass. ⁓

Sam Believ (35:43)

I’m gonna write one just for you, Nick. I’m gonna call it Ayahuasca for Publishers.

Nick Courtright (35:48)

⁓ Yeah, yeah, just do that.

Sam Believ (35:50)

No, but it’s a good idea. yeah, my book is it’s actually very specific. I know exactly who needs it. And that’s basically our target audience, people who come to the wire. It’s males and females 25 to 40. ⁓ They people that heard about ayahuasca, they feel the calling they they have some doubts, you know, they want to learn more. ⁓ First timers, people on the fence or even people that

Sam Believ (36:16)

done ayahuasca once and now they’re confused like what am I supposed to do what is what am I supposed to do with all this information like how do I actually use it to heal because it’s not as easy as it seems so I know exactly who I’m writing a book for but you know when we said about titles and also continuations of the book as you know the virus motto is connect heal grow and so if I write a book about healing with ayahuasca then I can write a book about growing with ayahuasca

Sam Believ (36:42)

when I am ready to ⁓ and when I know more about that. But if I want to write all those books, who’s going to run Loire for me? So that’s another question.

Nick Courtright (36:42)

and

Nick Courtright (36:50)

Yeah, yeah. Well, that’s where we ⁓ when I come down in January, we’ll talk about that the whole being a business owner part because we’re both, you know, business owners and you know, trying to, you know, run an operation and not be like swallowed by it at the same time. You know, that’s that’s always a challenge.

Sam Believ (36:58)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (37:12)

Definitely so ⁓ Yeah, think I think it should be clear by now what What am I planning to write and the best part is that now as soon as this episode is out? I’m the cat is out of the box. So I will have to write a book now there is You got you guys can keep me accountable and if you come back in January and ask me for my book and I’ll be like ⁓ You know, I kind of changed my mind, you know, feel free to kind of ⁓

Nick Courtright (37:29)

Yeah, you’re in trouble.

Sam Believ (37:40)

poke me or say something that’s not nice so I don’t keep myself accountable. ⁓ Nick, ⁓ talk to us a little bit more about, you said, being a business owner, obviously being a publisher, ⁓ your own family life, how do you do it all together and how maybe did IOSCA help you in any way?

Nick Courtright (38:06)

Yeah, I think, you know, and my wife has like spoken about this, that like Ayahuasca, like I came back more patient, right? ⁓ And now I’m like, okay, like now I need to level that up. You know, I want to be, I’ve got two kids, a 10 year old and a 15 year old. And you know, like I’m a good dad, but I want to be a better dad. And I’m a good husband, but I want to be a better husband. And you know, I’m a good business owner, like with my team of like,

Nick Courtright (38:36)

45 people working for Atmosphere and all of that, but I want to be better at it, you know, and so I think, you know, all of these things, like they do all require balance and there are only so many hours in the day, right? So learning how to decide what to prioritize, you know, what to, you know, put my attention into, you know, I think is, is always a challenge. So I think whenever anybody is just stuck on like the hamster wheel of life.

Nick Courtright (39:05)

you know, ayahuasca is like, definitely a way to stop the hamster wheel, you know, like, you’re going to have to like, look at things through a new lens and like see a new perspective. And that can give you a lot of like an almost like semi objective view of your life. And that’s not necessarily going to be easy, like parts of it, you’re going to, you’re going to hate, know, you’re going to be like, ⁓ I’m screwing this up or like, I’m not doing this part right.

Nick Courtright (39:33)

You know, but that’s going to like give you the opportunity then to make adjustments, to like get rid of bitterness, to get rid of regret, you know, to, you know, sort of start anew and, you know, patch things up if there are any damaged elements. ⁓ so yeah, I’m looking forward to, ⁓ to diving deeper this time. And, know, this last time I had no idea that going on this adventure to Columbia was going to.

Nick Courtright (40:02)

make me stop drinking alcohol and make me run a marathon. Like that was not on my radar at all. It wasn’t one of my intentions. It wasn’t my plan. Like I didn’t care about that stuff. Right. ⁓ so I’m really curious to see what sort of unexpected, you know, things sort of come out of this next go.

Sam Believ (40:24)

Yeah, this is ⁓ mean I love to hear your journey a couple book titles come to me for you to write, ⁓ how ayahuasca made me run a marathon and ⁓ My wife has spoken if you ever write an autobiography. So here’s some ideas for you Yeah, it’s really cool. It’s really cool. So this is once again This is why I need to write a book ⁓ to one of the one of the chapters is ⁓ have some chapter names already

Nick Courtright (40:40)

You

Sam Believ (40:50)

set out. I’ve actually written a few chapters already but one of them says ⁓ I was because not a magic bullet you know it’s like that’s name of the chapter so kind of explaining what’s what’s what’s the work that will need to be done and what is that work because it’s like yeah you need to do work as like what is it how does it look like what do I do in how that structure it how do I do enough but not too much to get burnt out and give up on the whole thing but how do I not

Sam Believ (41:18)

you know, do nothing at all and just become this kind of person that ⁓ just drinks ayahuasca and never does the homework. ⁓ So all of that and more. So I’m really excited. And once again, Nick, thank you for giving me that idea. yeah, ⁓ unless you have any more questions for me, we can start wrapping that one up.

Nick Courtright (41:41)

Yeah, no, think I think ⁓ that’s all good. I just want to sort of got to, you know, plug the business, of course. So if any of you listeners out there are, you know, writers, you’ve got your own ideas. If you want to scoop Sam and you know, write the book, you know, before he does, ⁓ but ⁓ if any of you are writers, like definitely check out atmospherepress.com. You know, we’ve got all sorts of you know, we give away free books, we

Sam Believ (41:49)

the police.

Nick Courtright (42:09)

giveaway free interviews. have a writing residency that we run in Costa Rica. That’s really amazing. ⁓ So we’ve got all sorts of awesome resources. If you’re a writer, you know, come check us out. And yeah, definitely also, you know, if you’re, if you haven’t, if you’re listening to this and you haven’t, you know, try the Ayahuasca experience yet, I mean, I couldn’t possibly recommend it more. I recommended it so much that I literally

Nick Courtright (42:36)

tattooed a thing on my arm so that people would ask me what it was so that I could talk about it. ⁓ you know, that sort of shows how ⁓ hardcore my endorsement is.

Sam Believ (42:47)

That’s a ⁓ dedication. I have a chapter that I wrote is like how not to lose friends after an ayahuasca retreat that that’s ⁓ Yeah, how to not become a zealot ⁓ so ⁓ Interestingly enough as we speak it’s like it all it all makes sense. So it’s all it’s also very necessary You know having different story versions for different people ⁓ Yeah, man, thank you for spreading the word. Thank you for your work ⁓

Nick Courtright (42:54)

⁓ Yeah, by talking about it endlessly and being annoying. ⁓

Sam Believ (43:16)

I ⁓ love the idea if somebody was listening to this and had the great ayahuasca experience, write a book about your experience. Like that’s great. know, like honestly, I think I believe ayahuasca is going to go mainstream next five to 10 years. And when it happens, your book will become best seller. know, it’s people there’s even though it seems like there’s a lot, really think there is not enough ⁓ when the wave of people comes. So.

Sam Believ (43:43)

Nick, thank you so much for inspiration. Thank you so much for, you know, just being you because it makes me feel really happy to see you healthy, happy, fit, and to know that maybe I did a little part in it. So thank you so much.

Nick Courtright (43:59)

Alright, thanks for having me.

Sam Believ (44:02)

Guys, you’ve been listening to ayahuascapodcast.com. As always with you, the host, Sam Belyev. ⁓ Please ⁓ check out the link in the forum, ⁓ link in the podcast description and fill out the forum about questions about the book. Thank you so much and I’ll see you in the next episode.

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with Natasja Pelgrom, a thought leader in personal growth and psychedelic transformation, founder of Awaken the Medicine Within, and host of the Awaken Podcast.

We touch upon topics including:

Natasja’s journey with psychedelics (1:51-10:29)

Entrepreneurship in the psychedelic space (10:58-15:50)

Leadership and psychedelics (17:18-24:13)

Authenticity as a core value (24:48-29:17)

Space-holding techniques (30:13-36:50)

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats, go to http://www.lawayra.com.

Find more about Natasja at natasjapelgrom.com or through Awaken the Medicine Within.

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:03)

Hi guys, welcome to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, with you the host Sam Believ. Today I’m having a conversation with Natasha Pelgrom. Natasha is a thought leader and guide in field of personal growth and psychedelic assisted transformation. She’s a trainer, facilitator, assistant, visionary leader. ⁓ She runs Awaken the Medicine within retreats, ⁓ where she supports people with psycho-spiritual approaches. She’s also a mentor and a host of Awaken Podcast.

Sam Believ (00:34)

Natasha, welcome to the show.

Natasja Pelgrom (00:36)

Thank you so much for having me, Sam, and greetings from Amsterdam, the land of water. And I’m literally hovering above water right now. So if you could see it, yeah, this is where I’m at.

Sam Believ (00:49)

Beautiful, are you on a boat?

Natasja Pelgrom (00:51)

No, but actually a lot of buildings are built really on almost on water and next to water. especially in Amsterdam, even newer buildings. yes. Yeah.

Sam Believ (00:56)

the news.

Sam Believ (01:03)

Interesting a lot a lot of people don’t know that about me, but my previous life before I was I was ⁓ a Marine mechanical engineer and I actually worked for a Dutch company for almost three years in offshore wind sector And I would I was so down was the second most visited city for me after Riga, which is ⁓ my own city of course now a change now I’m a metagene guy, but Yeah, there’s a lot that connects me to Holland and Amsterdam and its culture. So it’s and obviously

Sam Believ (01:33)

Holland is really known for its, you know, there’s a lot of medicine stuff going on there. So before we talk about that, ⁓ tell us about a little bit about yourself, your history ⁓ and ⁓ how did you end up working with Platt Medicines?

Natasja Pelgrom (01:51)

Yes, well, I always want to go back to the story of the 14 year old lady who was in her teenage years growing up in Amsterdam because I have a lot to thank her curiosity and rebel rebelness at the time was in the ⁓ 90s and mushrooms were illegal. Now we have, of course, decriminalized same illegal truffles containing psilocybin. But at the time,

Natasja Pelgrom (02:19)

actual mushrooms were legal in the Netherlands. ⁓ And I want to share that because my very first experience with psychedelics was at that age, you know, and for a lot of people, they asked me even in the past, wow, 14, your parents, where were they? ⁓ Actually, I want to put a disclaimer in here. I’m not saying every 14 year old should do it, ⁓ but my mother did know about it.

Natasja Pelgrom (02:47)

My mother was aware of what I was doing and about where I was in my curiosity with it. ⁓ So yes, I want to honor her because that experience answered questions that I didn’t know that I was holding, interesting enough. And it wasn’t with the framing of a set and setting and intentionality and everything we know now about facilitation and how we want to maybe meet these molecules and these teaching agents.

Natasja Pelgrom (03:16)

So, but something did get catalyzed back then and it set me on a trajectory of curiosity and wanting to understand a lot about why do people behave and become the way they are in relationship to their wounding or maybe trauma. That was one trajectory that catapulted me from that moment onwards. And another one was a form of, for lack of a better word, more of a spiritual awakening where

Natasja Pelgrom (03:43)

the interconnectedness of all of life I had felt since I can remember. And there was a confirmation into this relationship to something bigger than my egoic structure. And those two things actually catapulted me onto a path of learning, of growing, of going into the realm of shamanism, of Buddhism, Zen Buddhism, of personal development, of therapy.

Natasja Pelgrom (04:12)

for a small amount of time, even started learning psychology, children’s psychology. Very soon I figured that’s not where I want to go. So I’ve dabbled in many things to find answers, sometimes even to find questions and not necessarily answers. So that’s one trajectory. And the other one is I studied arts, so photography and design.

Natasja Pelgrom (04:40)

So I fueled a lot of my feelings around interconnectedness and creativity from coming actually from both ways. And then I also have a third component into me is curious about being autonomous, independent. So I became very quickly also a very entrepreneurial because that was buying back my own time.

Natasja Pelgrom (05:05)

And I had, fast forward in my 20s, I’ve had multiple companies in the fashion industry, hospitality industry, events industry. So at 29, I was holding a concept bar and club in Amsterdam ⁓ in the queer scene with rising talent and it was just an amazing experience, amazing place.

Natasja Pelgrom (05:30)

in 2012, which was a real turnaround where I decided that it was beautiful what I was providing, but my soul wasn’t happy. There was a deeper longing for to connect to that spiritual, that interconnectedness, that place of source. And I felt that was that part of me that was more in the closet. It was hidden. I felt I needed to protect it. felt…

Natasja Pelgrom (05:59)

all these things and that’s not where I wanted to be with my life. If I would look forward 10 years ahead, I had a longing to be fully owning all of my parts. So I literally sold that business, gave in the key, bless you. I see you’re sneezing. ⁓ Gave in the key. ⁓ Yeah, sorry, but I just saw it. I cannot not say bless you. ⁓

Sam Believ (06:18)

I muted the microphone but you gave me away.

Natasja Pelgrom (06:26)

So I gave in the keys and I shifted my life 100%, my relationship that I had at the time with my partner and so many things changed. And I literally started by sitting in my living room and in meditation. And I remember just sending out messages to people, hey, you want to sit with me.

Natasja Pelgrom (06:49)

That sitting created space and silence. And this is where a lot of started unfolding. Now, if I look backwards, because I already had a path of curiosity and learning and being a lifelong learner, I did develop skills over time as I was also being an entrepreneur. Those two things were always accompanying each other. ⁓ So at the time that I really dropped the…

Natasja Pelgrom (07:17)

egoic structures and saying, you know, want a validation of the brick and mortar as an entrepreneur going back into more meaning making for myself. I did have a certain skill sets that I had cultivated where I could just not be with. So it became very quickly. I launched my coaching practice and started facilitating workshops and even small one day retreat experiences.

Natasja Pelgrom (07:43)

And this is how plant medicines and psychedelics came onto my path as from ⁓ out of my personal development work and recreational experiences, because I have a lot to think about my recreational experiences as well. A lot of learning and a lot of gifts were in those moments, you know, as well, especially in community and in circle, even if it wasn’t that intentional at the time.

Natasja Pelgrom (08:11)

So yeah, and this is how that came on my path. And actually the compound that really was a very big teaching compound for me and still is, was ⁓ 5MAO DMT, which at the beginning when I started working with this compound and with its teacher and facilitator that taught me a lot at that time.

Natasja Pelgrom (08:36)

was with Bufa alvarius 5MAO DMT and then later in years, it became the synthesized version working with that. But because psilocybin and truffles with psilocybin in the Netherlands have always been part of my life, that actually also was a molecule and a teacher that I also worked with. And for those of you who might remember Synthesis Institute in 2018,

Natasja Pelgrom (09:05)

I was one of the founding members and retreat director there and supporting hundreds of people with an amazing team of people. then very soon I actually left and continued my own path. But that also catapulted the relationship with psilocybin in a much deeper way than I had done before, because it’s a numbers game. I was able to facilitate and support a lot more people through that container.

Natasja Pelgrom (09:34)

That’s a little bit fast forward ⁓ and 2017 started Awakened in Medicine Within with 5MAO DMT only and with a five day program really focusing on developing more of a methodology with integration elements with it. That was a need that I was seeing. now we are now in as we were recording 2024, we’ve had many changes in our field, amazing changes, amazing research has come out.

Natasja Pelgrom (10:03)

anybody stepping into the bureaucracy of the world and the systems that we’re in with these compounds and trying to bring change into the world. I applaud anybody that is willing to put themselves out there as a pioneer because you are a pioneer in that sense. So yeah, now we fast forward. I’m focusing more on practitioners and mentoring individuals. So yeah, that’s a bit my journey so far. A quick run through. ⁓

Sam Believ (10:29)

⁓ Thank you for sharing it’s it’s a long journey it seems and you started early and But as it is with the medicines, you know, it kind of all falls together and Things you learn ⁓ and you don’t know why you’re learning them eventually come handy when you’re starting with the work and it kind of all all comes together and makes a lot of sense so you mentioned, know being an entrepreneur before starting ⁓ working with the medicines and ⁓

Sam Believ (10:58)

I know you like to talk a lot about leadership. let’s talk a little bit about entrepreneurship and in the psychedelic space, you know, what have you observed? And obviously you, you train leaders. What, what issues do you notice? What, what advice is, can you give to somebody who is in that role?

Natasja Pelgrom (11:19)

Yeah, two questions in one, so I’ll try to remember both as I go into them. You know, there has been a very big, big shift. I believe, you know, when you facilitate something for someone, I think everybody can call themselves, you know, when you provide a service.

Natasja Pelgrom (11:45)

in a broader sense of the word, and let’s take psychedelics out there for a moment. You are an entrepreneur because I hope everybody pays their taxes. That supports the environment that you’re living in and the privilege that you’re in in what we’re receiving. So that means that you’re always an entrepreneur, right? And the challenges are sometimes is that we are very well-intentioned, and even with myself, is that

Natasja Pelgrom (12:12)

the world that we live in, need to pay our rent, we need to have insurances, psychedelic space. One of the biggest challenges is in terms of insurances is a very big challenge. In terms of payment systems is a very big challenge. So you need to inform yourself on so many levels. And probably the challenge

Natasja Pelgrom (12:38)

that compared to maybe another solopreneur would have versus a psychedelic entrepreneur would have is that you have to really understand the legal frameworks and how many. And I’m not even talking about is it legal to serve a compound or a molecule on the land that you’re in. That’s one for sure and how to navigate that system.

Natasja Pelgrom (13:05)

But when things go wrong, when there are risks, how do you support yourself? How do you support if you work with an assistant, if you work with a team, what is their responsibility? How can you be responsible? Like there is a lot of complexity and you have to navigate it from a place of entrepreneurial understanding, not just are you trained by the right framework or the quote unquote, right?

Natasja Pelgrom (13:32)

or by the right cosmology, or you have to almost step in with multiple hats in navigating quite a complex system sometimes. so when I started, I have to say that I didn’t have a lot of peer-to-peer support that I could talk to or really understand. There was a lot, because a lot of the people that were serving compounds in

Natasja Pelgrom (14:03)

weren’t maybe seeing it from a full responsibility with even screening or integration. So this was a decade ago. This was just a different time and space. So from my understanding, the challenges there was finding peer to peer support in getting yourself educated in the specific ways, right? Now, even coming in with

Natasja Pelgrom (14:30)

When you’re a solopreneur, or you’re going into it as a limited, these are very different legal structures in each country. Now I can speak more about the Netherlands and Portugal, because that’s a little bit more of the grounds that I navigate in than any other country. So I could speak a bit more into that. But even the way you would serve, and everybody thinks, ⁓ Netherlands, it’s legal. Portugal, it’s legal.

Natasja Pelgrom (14:56)

Not really. There is a lot of gray that you have to understand how you’re serving it, how people talk about it, how you navigate it with your team, how the clients are even receiving it. Officially, for example, in the Netherlands, ⁓ it is not legal to prepare the compounds or the plant medicines. The client needs to prepare it themselves. Now, I know for sure

Natasja Pelgrom (15:24)

that a lot of people that are truffles containing psilocybin in the Netherlands don’t even know about that. So there is an entrepreneurial responsibility which can be very challenging. So this maybe answers a bit of the challenges. Then another part of challenges is knowing how ⁓ taxing works, taxation, you’re pricing your retreats.

Natasja Pelgrom (15:50)

how you’re communicating taxes, not taxes, and all of that. That’s another part. it isn’t just about going in and being trained with a therapeutic framework. It’s much broader than that in the education that is needed. So yeah, and there was another question you asked me. So I wanted to speak about the challenges first and going a little bit into that. What was the other question, Sam? Help me out.

Sam Believ (16:20)

Leadership was the second question which kind of connects to the entrepreneurship as well. Yeah, what I was kind of, yeah, it’s good that you talk about, a lot of people that let’s say want to get into psychedelic space and they want to take courses and maybe facilitate, not many of them think about the business side of things. And at our retreat, we, like my team is like 30 plus people now, so no longer solopreneur and it’s… ⁓

Sam Believ (16:48)

You don’t expect that when you just start doing a ceremony in your backyard. You don’t expect that You’re gonna end up with a big team and you need to now create structures and but I’m not gonna bore bore the audience with that ⁓ Just If you are getting into it ⁓ think plan plan few steps ahead So let’s talk about leadership because you you like to focus on that you you you train you use psychedelics to ⁓

Sam Believ (17:18)

to train people in leadership, is that correct?

Natasja Pelgrom (17:22)

Yeah, so I like to, I’m just gonna share a little bit of a nuance of a word and not to correct you, Sam, so that’s not how I mean it. But how I approach it is a cooperation. So in terms of using psychedelics, yes, we use psychedelics, but there is an understanding in terms of the cooperation and how we can actually help become better leaders, right? So.

Natasja Pelgrom (17:50)

I believe that everybody has the capacity and is responsible and is a leader. I think we need to debunk and maybe reframe and sometimes even get a new relationship with certain words and certain terminologies. So leadership is very much seen from an old structure top to bottom. You know, it’s a authoritarian way of looking at it. That’s our old system that we are in.

Natasja Pelgrom (18:18)

And this old system is not working anymore. This old system is not where we need to be. But just by seeing how the outdated and traditional way of looking is hierarchical, authoritarian, and directive. That’s what we normally associate even with the word leadership. Now, ⁓ what we want to come into is the kind of place where leadership becomes transformational leadership. And this is really what we need today.

Natasja Pelgrom (18:48)

right, where it’s collaborative empowerment, where we cultivate emotional intelligence, where we even maybe from a term of servant leadership and servant leadership is those that might be more connected towards earth based traditions where we are in service of something bigger or in service of the cooperation with plant medicines or the consciousness in this way, right? Another part of transformational leadership would be adaptability, systems thinking.

Natasja Pelgrom (19:16)

And then of course, where we want to go into is inclusivity and diversity in leadership. Right? So all of these aspects in a way, what they do is leadership going from the outdated system to reclaiming the words and saying, okay, yes, you know, we need to transform this. And this is where what I’ve seen over the last decade is what’s happens is naturally certain

Natasja Pelgrom (19:45)

characteristics, certain things are cultivated. But if we don’t see certain frameworks attached to it or certain qualities that we can go deeper into, they just become an experience, right? So for example, self-leadership in this specific context is that will help you to give the

Natasja Pelgrom (20:10)

capacity to navigate, oversee, and make decisions really for yourself from a place of clarity, purpose, and then of course the magic word, which is a big buzzword, is authenticity. ⁓ And this really goes into where you can have quote unquote control over your values, your aspirations, and in the end, of course, ultimately life. So this is where leadership really comes in. Now,

Natasja Pelgrom (20:37)

What I love to do with clients and how to work with it is to really focus on, in the format that you work with, in cooperation with these plant allies or molecules, to go into this place of maybe re-evaluating your values. Yes, there of course, there’s a massive amount of healing that happens from ancestral intergenerational healing, inner child work healing.

Natasja Pelgrom (21:05)

healing from wounding, for example, an accident, an incident, physical healing, psychosomatic healing, spiritual healing, relational healing, like all of this is coexisting in the process. But ultimately, what I believe is to come into a sense of harmony with who you are.

Natasja Pelgrom (21:32)

and creating that kind of container and creating, let’s say, these kind of pillars of understanding of cultivating leadership. For me, my personal passion is that the cooperation with it, together with a deeper understanding, becomes a symbiosis and becomes a breeding ground.

Natasja Pelgrom (21:56)

without too much interference. So I just want to say that it’s not that I’m interfering in people’s process and saying, now think of your values and your leadership skills. That’s not how we’re holding a container of work. But when you do work with certain frameworks and people help to integrate that and ask the right questions, maybe where they understand where they’re out of values,

Natasja Pelgrom (22:22)

or where they’re out of their own integrity or where they’re out of maybe their authenticity, that can help them reframe that and recultivate those relationships. So I believe that everything at the end of the day is really about cultivating self-awareness. And that’s the cornerstone of, of course, leadership in any shape or form. And this is what these amazing allies do with our system, with our brains, with…

Sam Believ (22:29)

helps.

Natasja Pelgrom (22:49)

our guts, with our awareness, with the interrelationship with each other. It’s creating awareness. And then there is also another part, and especially with psilocybin, which is a compound that I love so much, is also about teaching you about illusion, about your own illusions. Sometimes it will give you illusion in the experience in many shapes or forms, which with the right kind of understanding of what is taking place. And then again,

Sam Believ (23:02)

So.

Sam Believ (23:14)

the point.

Natasja Pelgrom (23:19)

⁓ non-directive, but with open questions, people can really come back into their sovereignty and discernment and autonomy with themselves, which is a lot when we go through challenges and trauma, are things that are of course taken or dropped or unaware, and it’s a matter of reawakening those processes. this is where I feel like my passion is really in terms of leadership and stepping in.

Natasja Pelgrom (23:47)

And at the same time, hoping that you plant a seed by the container that you create or the method that you create, that that leadership eventually goes into the more servant leadership, which is to me the most, the highest form of leadership. And that is where, yes, you’re working on self, but simultaneously you’re also contributing to we.

Natasja Pelgrom (24:13)

which I like to also bring in the word stewardship. And for those of you who new to my work, stewardship is something that I’m really passionate about and also bringing that into the world with the word leadership, which is the ultimate form going from leadership towards stewardship in the end. So I hope this answers your question, Sam.

Sam Believ (24:36)

Mm-hmm slightly on a different topic, but still similar enough I found you from a video on Instagram where you’re talking about authenticity as the highest form of vibration and So That’s why I reached out to you because I really like that and kind of I’m currently now Going through this process when I’m working a lot on that specifically as in ⁓ You mentioned mindfulness and being you know self

Natasja Pelgrom (24:48)

Mm, yeah.

Sam Believ (25:05)

being able to observe yourself, of noticing the patterns where maybe there’s some being inauthentic or maybe somewhat exaggerating things or avoiding saying certain things. ⁓ and you say, know, authenticity is the highest form of vibration. Obviously, I think also authenticity is a part of that kind of leadership that you’re describing also. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Natasja Pelgrom (25:27)

Yeah, absolutely. think, you know, I say in that reel, of course, it’s a little sound bite. ⁓ It’s always a bit tricky, you know, when you have little reels with sound bites. But and I say frequency because I feel that people that, you know, in our ecosystem of the psychedelic and plant medicine space, we understand that because when you stepped into that space, often you see you see the energetic vibration of things of thought forms, right, of beliefs even.

Natasja Pelgrom (25:56)

even the influence of what someone has eaten before. Or the vibration of a plant, you know, this is where a lot of traditions of course have the vibration in the singing with the plant. So this is why I say the frequency, but it’s the, there was a research on the measuring tool of authenticity, gratitude and love, and I speak into that real about that. And authenticity is,

Natasja Pelgrom (26:22)

You know, it’s where you really build a genuine relationship with other people. And this is where it gets really interesting because we are so attuned through empathic relationship by micro expressions of each other, right? So in our micro expressions, we read, we sense, feel, you know when someone is authentically speaking from an embodied place,

Natasja Pelgrom (26:50)

and you can know, and sometimes it’s a feeling sense when something is out of tune in that, right? So, well, in authenticity, one of the qualities, and there is research that has been done on authentic leadership, I think the name is Bill George, there is a book, there’s actually a book called Authentic Leadership. So if you’re interested in this, I would definitely dive into that. And it’s really about, you know, being in a place of,

Natasja Pelgrom (27:18)

What does it mean to be an authentic leader, which is about cultivating self-awareness? Well, I spoke about that psychedelics, plant medicine, and theogens do that for sure, right? Or help you in that direction. Transparency is a quality that is in there, which is really important. And then there needs to be a symbiosis that you act according to your values. So, and this creates a deep connection and deep relational space of trust with other people’s.

Natasja Pelgrom (27:47)

So when these things are all together in one, there is a felt sense. And this is when people feel genuine relationship and actually can be inspired. And this is also where a place of true openness and vulnerability is at. Now, I’ve witnessed a lot of people in a facilitation space and even beyond psychedelic space, believe me, being in a very open and vulnerable place is not oversharing your traumas.

Natasja Pelgrom (28:17)

So there is a nuance into that as well, right? That does not have to mean that it’s authentic in that moment. So in the context of maybe specifically more around space holding, authenticity needs to be a fundamentally foundational block because this actually creates a sense of safety for the participants.

Natasja Pelgrom (28:47)

So space holding in a practice is really creating, course, a non-judgmental place, being supportive for people to express themselves, being able to navigate so they can navigate complex emotions, maybe even a spiritual process in that. So spaceholders, they have to cultivate this really critical relationship with their own authenticity to be able to show up in that way.

Natasja Pelgrom (29:17)

then we make it even more simplified, of course. How do you do that is to really understand your values and walk them and then of course have not only a supervision in that and to understand your own shadow and do deeper shadow work. And I don’t mean just with being your own solo work with plant allies or psychedelics, but also have people from other disciplines be a mirror to you in that sense.

Natasja Pelgrom (29:45)

There is a lot that aligns with being in a place of authenticity or what authentic relational space is or authenticity in space holding in that sense.

Sam Believ (29:58)

Thank you for sharing. ⁓ So you mentioned holding space and you’ve already shared a little bit on that. Is there anything else you want to go deeper and then maybe talk to us a little bit about the course that you mentioned?

Natasja Pelgrom (30:13)

Yeah, ⁓ so holding space is, ⁓ I really love that word because it’s almost like there’s a magical component to it. ⁓ Why, what does it mean, holding space, right? But in its really core essence, it’s creating a state of awareness of non-judgment.

Natasja Pelgrom (30:42)

But there is a groundedness in self-knowledge that’s really important because that’s where, again, the meaningful, authentic relational space can really emerge for an individual that you’re holding space for, right? ⁓ And that non-judgmental is, it’s very, it’s complex in its nature because…

Natasja Pelgrom (31:08)

We can never be never completely without judgment, you know, but it’s where it hooks into is especially this word self-knowledge because you have to understand your own programming, your belief systems, your own wounding, how you relate to your wounding, what projection is, how projection works for you, what your blind spots might be. Are you surrounded with a team or peers?

Natasja Pelgrom (31:35)

that are different than you, that can mirror that in a way, you know? And then amidst all of this complexity of you, are you able to map out what is yours and what isn’t? So it means that you have an ability to be super steadfast in the discomfort and challenges that might be for you, for another person, and still be with your nervous system in a place

Natasja Pelgrom (32:03)

of relaxation that could feel that the environment is supported. And all of this is without using any language. It’s purely through a bodily embodied place of knowing. Of course, language comes in the preparation, language comes maybe in the group support, in how you prepare the group beforehand. So yes, language is very important. But let’s say in the magical component of holding space,

Natasja Pelgrom (32:30)

This is where it’s non-language, but it’s a bodily sensed felt awareness. So in this way, you become of course, very strong place of discernment. And this is where I bringing in a component that most people might not fully, because I think people that are interested in your podcast might know about space holding, maybe not new to them what I’m sharing, but it also involves of bringing in three things.

Natasja Pelgrom (33:01)

Understanding a rites, what it is to accompany a rite of passage. That’s one that is really important. Did you understand the complexity of birth and death in its metaphorical language and its transpersonal language? And of course, bringing into the second one, which is transformation or accompanied with healing or a process of alchemy, right? That’s also part of that. And then the third component is where

Natasja Pelgrom (33:30)

people are in a state of learning, right? Because the ultimate place where as a spaceholder, facilitator, or practitioner, your responsibility is to bring an individual to the best state that they can to be in a place of learning, which is accompanied with a quality of curiosity, right? And curiosity in this sense is the cornerstone where you can learn something new.

Natasja Pelgrom (33:58)

And you can step into complex, maybe metaphorical language or psychedelic navigation, which is a skill, you know, is a skill that needs to be cultivated over an X amount of time. And as guides, facilitators, that’s what you’re responsible for. You’re helping people skillfully navigating their own expanded states of consciousness to then deeper learn themselves, to then ultimately

Natasja Pelgrom (34:27)

create self-awareness. So there’s a lot of words around space holding, but I wanted to go a little bit deeper on what that means in my book. And then, yes, as a little plug, ⁓ because as this comes out, I’m just launching a five-week course online on the fundamentals of space holding, where we’re actually going to go deep into what are all of these elements. And I think when I already spoke about cultivating

Natasja Pelgrom (34:56)

non-judgmental space, a supportive space, active listening, what is interference, what is projection, what is counter projection, like all of these aspects. But one of the things I want to highlight is spiritual hygiene. ⁓ Because a lot of the more traditional ways of learning to work with an entheogenic setting or psychedelics or plant medicines do work with spiritual hygiene.

Sam Believ (35:13)

it.

Natasja Pelgrom (35:25)

But the more, let’s say, therapeutic approaches do not necessarily speak about spiritual hygiene. So I really wanted to bring in the aspects of, OK, what does it mean to actually navigate an expanded state of consciousness, support people with the space holding I just named, and what is the energetic component of that?

Natasja Pelgrom (35:51)

What is the metaphysical component of that to actually keep yourself safe and keep the environment as clean as you possibly can? Now, a lot of psychological understanding is number one, know your wounding because that’s like a magnet, it will attract. But also what is a more generic understanding and speaking into that. I think within the course, having a lot of Q &A kind of moments to really help people discern and come into understanding.

Sam Believ (35:52)

Thank

Natasja Pelgrom (36:21)

And then there are, of course, many terminologies and belief systems that maybe slightly speak into things slightly different. And that’s always, to me, the most exciting things is to see the pattern and what is the universal elements in all of them. And then we come to a form which I call a form of ultimate truth because that’s where they all intersect together. yeah, the fundamentals of space holding. So anybody that wants to join, can. There is a beautiful community.

Natasja Pelgrom (36:50)

offering for anybody listening. So just a little plug here.

Sam Believ (36:55)

Anything you want to add on the topic of spiritual hygiene because it’s a really really interesting term.

Natasja Pelgrom (37:03)

Yeah, absolutely. ⁓ well, there are so many things that we can go into, but it’s really about, you know, a few things is about maintaining your understanding, your emotional balance and how when it spills over what happens. ⁓ And also understanding the psychological integration of yourself.

Natasja Pelgrom (37:30)

how important that is for, let’s say, the spiritual hygiene, that they actually go hand in hand. But also things like really basic. A lot of my mentees actually come with questions around, how do I, what are entities? What are thought forms? ⁓ What are vampiric hooks? What are, how is the land responding to where I’m at?

Natasja Pelgrom (37:59)

I’ve seen these and these energetic forms in this ceremony, but not in that ceremony. In Mexico, I’ve seen this, but in the Netherlands, I see that the land. How does that work? So there is a lot of questions around, let’s see, the metaphysical process of skillfully navigating the Hispanic state of consciousness and going back all the way back to the basics of keeping yourself as

Natasja Pelgrom (38:27)

clean as possible by integrating your psychology, understanding that aspect of yourself. And then, of course, making sure that there isn’t any spiritual bypassing in that. So that’s where you’re going. And then what kind of rituals, which is really interesting because I’m always very fascinating how science and spirituality could speak sometimes about the same thing. So I did some research for one of my personal podcasts and also for a course

Natasja Pelgrom (38:56)

that’s called living in ceremony, around the research around rituals and what is happening neurologically to your brain and your system. ⁓ And sometimes the repetition of an action, not necessarily with a specific compound or with a specific mineral, but that repetition sets us up in a certain state of awareness and sets us up in a certain way of being.

Natasja Pelgrom (39:26)

that we’re a lot more capable of tapping into our subconscious even. So, and that’s of course our database of knowledge that you wanna go into. even with things like drumming, know, everybody that is listening here has experienced a drum. And of course, besides that being a massive impact for your experience in a ceremony, that does bring your brain into a theta state.

Natasja Pelgrom (39:56)

which then is also a way where we are in when we are, of course, in a deep meditative place, but that is also where, in a theta state, is also where we have more access to our subconscious awareness. So all of these practices that we do can be actually related back to our spiritual hygiene and can be related back to how does that impact. Now, the same thing goes with prayer.

Natasja Pelgrom (40:23)

where I just shared about repetition. Now there’s specific ways of praying that have more effect on neurological patterning and our way of being and therefore our environment than other ways. Now what’s the difference? So if you understand these ancient tools that are, it’s our birthright to pray, it’s our birthright to make fire, it’s our birthright to play a drum, you know.

Natasja Pelgrom (40:50)

if you copy in the cosmology without training in that, that’s a different thing. That’s appropriation, of course, but relating to our elements is our birthright. So if you are praying with and to water in a specific way, could be a form of spiritual hygiene. So it’s very interesting to actually almost see, dissect the pattern and come at it from not only a spiritual aspect or metaphysical transpersonal aspect that I’m

Natasja Pelgrom (41:20)

very interested in, also coming in it from a scientific aspect and then coming in also with a psychological aspect. So I’m always trying to actually bridge every single aspect as holistically as possible. So you would never see me, you know, in all my programs, if it’s online or in our retreat programs, I always make sure that we address all of these aspects with our questions and answers and how-tos.

Natasja Pelgrom (41:49)

to fully get as holistically as possible understanding of our experience. And this is what fascinates me most about psychedelics and plant medicines and in the entheogenic settings and all of that is we have a capacity to learn and cultivate so much creativity through these processes and really understand it’s a deep invitation to go into a holistic self. But that’s what gets me fired up, Sam. ⁓

Sam Believ (42:18)

You mentioned spiritual bypassing. That’s another topic that I really like. Can you share a little bit about that?

Natasja Pelgrom (42:25)

In what way?

Sam Believ (42:27)

Like what is it, how to avoid it.

Natasja Pelgrom (42:31)

Yeah, well, mean, ⁓ so I mean, so let’s go back into what it defines, right? So where we go into is spiritual beliefs, spiritual practices and spiritual life that really helps you to maybe not meet emotional pain or psychological challenges. So that’s in its simplest form, right? ⁓

Natasja Pelgrom (42:59)

I think it’s like anything, it is very complex because sometimes it serves someone to keep them safe. So I never want to use these terms lightly in a way that puts things off, right? Or creates, like I said, the word judgment.

Natasja Pelgrom (43:25)

right, because sometimes it really is there as a survival mechanism to be able to even function. ⁓ and there is a lot more new ones to it. ⁓ But sometimes what I’ve seen when it what happens when it’s toxic is when you dismiss someone’s boundaries or not allow others to express or share maybe painful or negative emotions or suggesting.

Natasja Pelgrom (43:54)

passivity when actually an action is required, or that everything happens for a reason and look at the bright side. We’ve all heard that. ⁓ Listen, I’ve said that. I’ve said that, like it ever happens for a reason. I remember 15, 20 years ago, I was very more embedded in the new age way of looking at spirituality. And if I look at myself today as myself back then,

Natasja Pelgrom (44:23)

there was some spiritual bypassing going on there, you know, absolutely. So I don’t think like I’m elevated in any shape or form, it’s just I’ve learned my own bypassing in that sense. But this is why I just shared about space holding and the importance to address all these different aspects of it, like the psychological to transpersonal, the energetics, know, the understanding, then of course,

Natasja Pelgrom (44:52)

also the scientific, really look at research as well. Why? Why is because you make sure that you look at yourself and the way you’re holding space and the way you’re facilitating, so you avoid bypassing. So you avoid all of these aspects. Because one of them, it’s really nice to be surrounded with people that speak our jargon.

Natasja Pelgrom (45:18)

You know, our little community, we’re a little embedded and we feel like we really belong and it feels so good to be in this circle together. But it can very quickly become a toxic thing where there is, it’s almost like for lack of a better word, incestuous. know, there is no outside influence anymore in it. And before we know it, we are as a little hub of a little interconnected web of a form of consciousness together.

Natasja Pelgrom (45:47)

that we are stuck in that same belief system. You know, we’re stuck in that same, the algorithm, ⁓ what we have now a lot. Whatever you’re following on social media, that’s your algorithm you’re getting. That’s the only world you’re in. A little side note, for me to not bypass, this is how I actually use social media to that my advantage. I will follow things that I’m not necessarily in agreement with. But just if you can’t convince them, confuse them, the algorithm.

Sam Believ (46:04)

Bye.

Natasja Pelgrom (46:16)

to get different information into your feed that might not necessarily be your information, to get other viewpoints. If I would ever have someone look at my, I follow, they might think that I’m in agreement with those viewpoints, which is fine. I know why I’m doing it, but it’s like, I always personally invite people to, how can you bring in different viewpoints and different understandings in a creative way?

Sam Believ (46:33)

I’m going to.

Natasja Pelgrom (46:45)

Right? How can you, because the world is complex, psychedelics is complex and it’s not getting any easier. So how can we be with our creativity in that sense? So if you want to work on and understand more about your spiritual bypassing or bypassing in general, I would invite anybody to think about like in terms of this example of following different things on social media. ⁓ What other ways could there be? Right? In terms of

Natasja Pelgrom (47:17)

what you could do. And one of the things that is a real red flag for you is ⁓ if you’re unable to acknowledge someone else’s complexity and what they’re experiencing, ⁓ which is maybe avoiding a feeling of anger, or whereas another one is where things are hidden, your insecurity is hidden, for example, by

Natasja Pelgrom (47:45)

Spiritual superiority. That happens a lot. These kind of things, when you’re noticing them slightly, that’s where you might need some external reflections in a way. And superiority ⁓ is a very interesting concept. actually have a course for, master class, sorry, for facilitators on shadow work and medicine work and how to

Sam Believ (47:45)

spiritual

Sam Believ (48:09)

Thank

Natasja Pelgrom (48:15)

work with shadow work and as a facilitator how to work for yourself and how to work with others. And this is just not because I studied psychology. I’m not here as a psychologist, you know, at all, but this is all things that through the work and the learning and I’ve had the blessing of having peers next to me that had far greater studies than I have, you know, and teach me and I’ve been a mirror for them and they’ve been a mirror for me and

Sam Believ (48:25)

Thank you.

Natasja Pelgrom (48:41)

I’ve been applying a lot of things and through the application, I can say, well, this is what I discovered. you know, being a lifelong learner, share it with you. But I want to circle back on superiority is a shadow aspect that I discovered for myself, you know, just to own myself in this conversation is when superiority is created is also a form that really is toxic because it helps you.

Sam Believ (48:42)

Bye.

Natasja Pelgrom (49:08)

not it helps you, but it creates a disconnect with other people where you don’t see the excellence of someone else anymore. And therefore, and this is what happens, and this was a very big learning and I’m being really private and candid here with you, but I’m okay with that, ⁓ is what happens is that not only what happens is that you become more more isolated. So when you don’t see the excellence in someone else, you consistently feel like you’re doing everything by yourself and there is a lack of support.

Natasja Pelgrom (49:37)

the world towards you. You might have a team of the most amazing people and you still feel like you’re carrying the weight of the team on your shoulders and you have to do everything yourself. This was a quality that I really had to understand on a very deep level where, of course, teaching agents and our molecules have been a part of me learning this.

Natasja Pelgrom (50:00)

But to be really honest was for a whole year not doing any ceremony with myself and really integrating, I came to this conclusion and this insight where I was like, ⁓ this is where a lot of, and then we go back to the beginning of our conversation about the challenges as entrepreneurs is that, and visionaries especially, is that you are a lot of the times doing things alone, you know?

Natasja Pelgrom (50:29)

the shadow aspect of that autonomy can be superiority, of course. And then we have spiritual superiority. So I just wanted to weave in some examples so it becomes really alive for your audience here. So go like, hey, maybe there is a little bit of, wait, I recognize this. This is what this looks like. So yeah, I hope it helps.

Sam Believ (50:49)

Yeah, shadow work is fascinating. ⁓ I’ve recently started learning more about and also teaching it and it gave me a lot of clarity on some of my own patterns and now you can kind of observe more on people as well and the way, ⁓ like especially in the retreat setting, the projections, the… ⁓

Sam Believ (51:12)

regressions and all that stuff that happens is really, really noticeable. But I think we’re kind of running out of time. So, ⁓ thank you so much for the episode. I think it was very, very deep and I think I’ll need to re-listen to it myself to kind of collect ⁓ all the information again. Where can people find more about you?

Natasja Pelgrom (51:34)

You can just go to my name, which is Natasha with a Dutch spelling. Pelgrom is also a Dutch spelling. dot com, that’s my website. And from there, you can go anywhere. We have Eudemonia Institute, is my all online ⁓ work and teachings. We do Stewards of the Sacred, which is a conference every year. It’s really more of a support and being in stewardship and right relationship.

Natasja Pelgrom (52:03)

with those that have walked this pathway before I did. So this is my way of contributing back. We always support a lot of different causes and individuals with stewards of the sacred. So that’s another one. And of course, Awakened in Medicine Within, where we host retreats. And we have just launched our nine-day practicum retreat. for our life learners, lifelong learners, to spaceholders, to practitioners who just want to deepen their own work because

Natasja Pelgrom (52:30)

There’s a beautiful amount of training out there, which is multiple months online. And that’s not what I wanted to bring forth. I wanted to bring forth a place where we can come in from nervous system to nervous system and sit and learn and grow together. that’s my next passion for 2025. So thank you so much, Sam, for inviting me. It’s always good to find peers in a space and build bridges from the Netherlands to Colombia. So thank you.

Sam Believ (52:57)

Thank you, Natasha. Guys, thank you for listening. ⁓ As always, do the whole assembly and I will see you in the next episode.

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with Mark John Brown, an integral performance and purpose coach with over 15 years of experience blending indigenous wisdom with modern business practices.

We touch upon:

Mark’s journey into plant medicine and indigenous culture (01:02)

Indigenous re-indigenization and its impact on self-development (04:20)

The role of ayahuasca in re-indigenizing the self (06:11)

Healing childhood trauma through psychedelics (09:29)

Indigenous concepts of reciprocity and sacred reciprocity (21:47)

Balancing spirituality with business in modern society (33:26)

Coaching strategies rooted in ancestral wisdom (40:17)

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats, go to http://www.lawayra.com.

Find more about Mark John Brown at his website nativewisdomhub.com or on Instagram @marcjohnbrown.

Special offer from Marc

https://www.nativewisdomhub.com/trauma-to-triumph

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:02)

Hi guys and welcome to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always with you the host Sambiliyev. Today I’m having a conversation with Mark John Brown. Mark is an integral performance and purpose coach. He’s a healer, entrepreneur. He dedicated over 15 years to integrating ancient wisdom traditions with modern business practices. His work is deeply influenced by his extensive experiences with indigenous communities in Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, Brazil.

Marc-John (00:03)

you

Sam Believ (00:32)

Korea and Malaysia through this interactions. Sorry, I got a call. That’s the first.

Marc-John (00:36)

Thank

Marc-John (00:42)

⁓ It does, yeah. Thank you very much. That was a good introduction. ⁓ Thank you.

Sam Believ (00:44)

Through these interactions he has developed a unique approach to personal and professional development aiming to guide individuals towards a harmonious balance in life and business. Does that describe you well, Mark?

Sam Believ (01:02)

a pretty worldwide interaction you had with all those tribes. I would want to talk about that. before we begin, what brought you into this line of work, working with plant medicines and self-improvement healing?

Marc-John (01:18)

⁓ Yeah, well, ⁓ they say that, you know, I’m very interested in anthropology and ethnobotany and one of my core beliefs really is, ⁓ you know, that first comes the land, then comes the people, then comes the culture, then comes the language, right? And so language is like ⁓ a doorway, a portal to the truth of ⁓ a people, right?

Marc-John (01:48)

the way they express themselves is directly correlated with who they are and where they come from and how they behave, right? So ⁓ for me, I grew up from the age of 11 in Scotland with Argentinians and Paraguayans and particularly the Paraguayan people, there was something very ⁓ llamativo in Spanish, like something that like

Marc-John (02:17)

caught my attention quite a bit with the Guarani language and the fact that Paraguay has two lingua francas, two officially recognized languages. And there was lots of stories in my childhood and early teens about this. ⁓ And so yeah, by age 15, because of growing up with this family of Argentinians and this family of Paraguayans, I was completely bilingual. And this was my doorway to the cultures, of course. And then the cultures took me

Marc-John (02:47)

to the land and I went and I lived in Argentina for about six months but whilst I was in Argentina I went through this really big spiritual awakening ⁓ and ⁓ this big spiritual awakening it took me to come well to cancel my flight home first and foremost I went to hitchhike from Argentina through Chile and Bolivia into Peru and on that trip that’s when I came into real my first real visceral contact in person contact live in the flesh with the

Marc-John (03:16)

indigenous populations of the region, particularly and more specifically the Aymara and Quechua people of Bolivia. And so this merging of my spiritual awakening with my new encounter and fascination with these indigenous people, this is where it was all born. And yeah, five days after going into Peru, I met the woman who two weeks later I would move in with and then three months later I would marry and 16, almost 16 years later, almost 16 years later, here I am still married to her with two kids. And yeah, it was

Marc-John (03:45)

This was where it all began. My wife is a representative of one of the indigenous Vinigis of Peru. that’s where it all began.

Sam Believ (03:57)

Interesting story, guess mine was somewhat similar, you know women play a role in men’s journey, but you mentioned indigenous people and you talk about something that you call indigenous re-indigenization of self. Can you tell us what it is?

Marc-John (04:20)

That’s a great question man. Re-indigenization of self to me is the rewilding of self, it’s the returning to ancestral ways. ⁓ But not necessarily returning to an ancestral environment, just an ancestral culture. ⁓ and in doing so, I really believe, like I said, land and environment, people, culture, language, right? At the beginning of this call I said that.

Marc-John (04:49)

⁓ I think if we can rekindle ⁓ our indigeneity, which means our deep inherent connection with nature in a way that sees all of the elements and all aspects of nature personified so that we can be in an intimate relationship with nature and the elements, this is re-indigenization of self for me. And if we do that, then

Marc-John (05:18)

the level of care and attention and love and appreciation and need to protect the natural world will increase significantly. ⁓ What we are in intimate relationship with, we have a deep care for, right? So yeah, this is what I mean by re-indigenization of self.

Sam Believ (05:43)

That makes a lot of sense and I’ve been thinking that probably psychedelics can or plant medicine specifically can help a lot with that because you know in hosting so many people every year we see the process of people going from being indifferent to nature to connecting with nature and really appreciating it. So what do you think would be the role of plant medicine in this re-indigenization of self?

Marc-John (06:11)

It’s a huge piece, know, particularly ayahuasca, particularly ayahuasca and iboga maybe. ⁓ I mean, we can say it for all psychedelics, you know, particularly like, you know, psilocybin, the mescaline based cactus medicines, ayahuasca, which is DMT based, ⁓ iboga, which is of course ibogaine based. ⁓ But I think that

Marc-John (06:38)

There’s something about ayahuasca and iboga that are like, really just help us to see how intrinsically entwined and interrelated we are with the natural world, right? Like, and once you, I mean, you hear it ⁓ so often, you know, like people who go into ayahuasca ceremonies or Yahéi ceremonies or even iboga ceremonies, people who are engaging in psychedelic healing.

Marc-John (07:08)

events, they come out with a whole newfound understanding of their place in the natural world as an integral part of the natural world, meaning that every single action, ⁓ symbiotic if you will, symbiotic meaning like completely interrelated, meaning that every action that they take or even word that they speak might have an effect on their environment.

Marc-John (07:37)

which increases their level of care and attention that they pay to protecting the natural world.

Sam Believ (07:49)

Definitely, I think it can jumpstart this process and a lot of people. you mentioned ayahuasca and in your journey of self-discovery, what role did ayahuasca play?

Marc-John (08:04)

Huge. Yeah, huge. ⁓ Really helped me to ⁓ see the truth of just how big a blessing these two South American families in my childhood were, because they were able to provide me with a really strong contrast ⁓ against the childhood that I lived, which was like, highly toxic from a very

Marc-John (08:33)

dysfunctional family, you know. ⁓ So it made me see so much of the truth ⁓ of my upbringing, my childhood and ⁓ some of the limitations that I was experiencing in my late teens and early adulthood. ⁓ I was able to see the truth of those limitations that they were rooted in childhood. They were rooted in the way my mom treated me or the absence of my father. And then

Marc-John (09:02)

you know, knowledge is power. Once you have knowledge of why, then you can work on, you know, healing. Yeah.

Sam Believ (09:13)

And you mentioned childhood, so I know you talk a lot about childhood trauma. Tell us a little bit about that and what would your approach be in guiding somebody in healing childhood trauma?

Marc-John (09:29)

Yeah, that’s a big one, obviously, because there’s so many different types of trauma, different ways that trauma expresses itself in people. ⁓ But it’s really important for me and from the experience that I have, it’s really important to help prepare somebody adequately, powerfully, sufficiently when they’re moving towards taking ⁓

Marc-John (10:00)

you know, experiencing a psychedelic healing event and then also beyond the actual event supporting them supporting them to assimilate, integrate, make sense of, make peace with everything they ⁓ experienced in their psychedelic journey, their psychedelic healing event. That is ⁓ myself, this is how I set ⁓ the structure of the containers that I work with.

Marc-John (10:29)

is there’s like a set period of preparation which is focused and then there is the navigation. So I developed a method called the I3 method which features you know intention setting, inception which is like navigation of the actual psychedelic experience and developing a core set of tools for navigating the journey and then beyond that for several weeks there is a structured

Marc-John (10:59)

program that I work with people through, ⁓ which is the third I, the integration. So we have intention setting, inception, ⁓ and integration afterwards. And just helping people in a way that is trauma informed, sensitive, ⁓ person centered, client centered, helping them to really find their own answers to what their whole experience meant for themselves, Helping. ⁓

Marc-John (11:27)

I guess partner with them in their thought processes and emotional processing to be able to really fully land on the other side of their psychedelic healing experience. That’s how I help people ⁓ heal childhood trauma. Yeah, one of the ways anyway.

Sam Believ (11:50)

You also mentioned your mother and I think you talk about mother wound. What is the difference with that trauma specifically and how you yourself overcame it?

Marc-John (12:02)

⁓ I mean, I think for a man, it’s one of the biggest things, right? It’s one of the biggest pieces. ⁓ I can really only speak ⁓ with conviction about my journey as a man, right? You know, I can’t pretend that I have the answers to everybody else’s life. It’s not really my job. My job is to help people arrive at their own conclusions with their own life, whether they are women or men, right? ⁓ But in my own case, I think I really think that,

Marc-John (12:31)

⁓ As a man, ⁓ one of the biggest pieces for me was to cut the umbilical cord of energy, the energetic connection ⁓ of need and necessity that kept me being a boy, needing ⁓ my mom, needing ⁓ my mom to do things for me, ⁓ needing my mom to even tell me the size of my trousers. This was a big piece. ⁓

Marc-John (12:59)

A big piece in me becoming a man and ⁓ being able to become a competent father as well from a place of manhood, not of boyhood. ⁓ Yeah, ⁓ I think that’s probably the biggest piece for me. ⁓ And of course, ⁓ it was a strange one for me personally, know, like needing my mother, like moving into adulthood, needing her to do all these things for me.

Marc-John (13:28)

Whilst at the same time, being, ⁓ finding it very difficult to understand what my own needs were because I was parentified as a child, you know, because of having an addict mother, right? My mother’s like a deep ⁓ alcohol addict. She’s an alcoholic. ⁓ And so I was parentified because I was having to take care of her, you know.

Marc-John (13:57)

at an age when she should be taking care of me, right? ⁓ But then when she was well, how confusing, right? A dichotomy. When she was well, ⁓ she was, you know, like doing everything for me, like wouldn’t allow me to do important tasks, you know, in my life. Like didn’t like to release control of reality to hand over some responsibility to me.

Marc-John (14:25)

Right? Which made me kind of needing her for all the most crucial things in life whilst at the same time because I was always like caring for her and like whenever we went out or did something important in life like it would always be me who was having to be the adult taking care of her because she was not capable of like being conscious because she was drunk and stuff you know. Yeah. ⁓

Marc-John (14:52)

That’s what I’ve overcome. I’ve come to understand that and with the help of the medicines, just staying true to this medicine path, really grown into manhood and mature fatherhood and committed husbandry as well.

Sam Believ (15:09)

Thank you for sharing that. As somebody who has an alcoholic father, I understand the pain. The question I have for you is have you found that desire to help your mother with the newly found information you have and how, if so, how did it go?

Marc-John (15:29)

⁓ So good question, I think maybe for the first ⁓ Because you know, I mean I’ve been doing this for again almost 16 years now You said at the beginning of this call 15 years. That’s right, but it’s like it’s almost 16 You know like coming up February it will be 16 years. So ⁓ Yeah for the first I don’t know five six seven Maybe eight years of working with the medicine

Marc-John (15:59)

I was ⁓ always thinking about my mom, always wanting to help crack her open, help teach her new things, buying her books, telling her the stories. ⁓ And I remember one of the first medicine men and lineages that I worked with was of the Shuar people of Ecuador. in the middle of the ceremony, like in the middle of the ceremony, ⁓ I’m still young in my…

Marc-John (16:26)

in my life and also in my medicine journey, like in the middle of the ceremony I’m just having this journey about my mom and like how much she’s suffering and stuff and you know like right in the middle of the ceremony I got up to go to the the to the medicine man and just say hey man like you know we need to help my mom like how can I help my mom you know ⁓ and ⁓ and he said he said to me you know maybe one of the wisest things I’ve ever heard actually is you know

Marc-John (16:56)

⁓ We help these people change and conjure the desire in them to change by us changing ourselves and showing them how we change and become the new version of ourselves. So just keep doing what you’re doing and walking your path and being who you are. Yeah, ⁓ it’s good that you asked me this because it’s been a while since I remembered that.

Sam Believ (17:26)

Yeah, what he told you is what I tell people when they ask, you know, how can they convince family members to come drink awas. Cause like show by example, lead by example, if you change enough that when they’re ready, they will see you and they’ll be like, whatever it is you’re having, want some of that. This is one, this is one that might work. And speaking of alcoholism,

Sam Believ (17:55)

I’ve personally seen many transformation journeys with it and the medicine. What have you observed yourself? Maybe any tips for alcoholics listening?

Marc-John (18:10)

⁓ I think yeah, take care of yourself, you know like ⁓

Marc-John (18:22)

Number one, think is to find a way to love and appreciate yourself, you know? ⁓ That’s number one, like self-love and self-care. And the question that I always ask to people when ⁓ we’re looking for people’s own gifts and people’s own value in this world is like, you know, where out there in the world, where has life reflected back to you?

Marc-John (18:52)

your own value and your own worth. Where has life shown you that you are unique, you are needed, you are valuable? Where ⁓ has life spoken to you and shown you that you are needed or that you are valuable or that you are cherished? Find that. ⁓ Where is it? Whether it be somebody just being so grateful for a favor that you did for them or whether it be somebody telling you that you inspire them.

Marc-John (19:21)

you know, ⁓ or whether it be somebody feeling ⁓ genuinely connected to you and recognizing themselves in you and seeing, finding strength in you, you know, whatever it may be, like where, where in life does, you know, do you receive a reflection of your value? And then once we find that, of course, there is a bit of work.

Marc-John (19:50)

to open the heart and to allow more of this energy and actually for us to believe and really feel like okay this is true ⁓ but even if we don’t ⁓ at this juncture in time to go and seek more of that you know to go and commit to the same act or the similar act where somebody appreciated you or keep doing the thing that makes you inspire other people keep being in the place or doing the thing that helps other people recognize themselves in

Marc-John (20:20)

you right like just cultivate more of that energy ⁓ and and particularly with addiction as well I always say like ⁓ let’s do our best like okay fine the addiction is there okay like accept it fine and when we go if it’s too difficult to make the decision not to lift the glass of alcohol not to sniff the line of cocaine or

Marc-John (20:48)

whatever the addiction is, not to go to the prostitutes or whatever the addiction is. Let’s balance it out with something sacred, right? Okay, you don’t have to, if it’s too difficult, then don’t try to stop it. But complement it with something sacred. Compliment it with like a good act, an act of charity, something healthy, a cold bath or a prayer ceremony ⁓ or you know, whatever it may be, something sacred that fits your life, balance it.

Marc-John (21:17)

one addictive act is balanced with one sacred act and commit to like you a month, two months, three months of doing this and then see where the energies begin to leak. ⁓

Sam Believ (21:33)

It’s an interesting approach, very, very unique one, but does make a lot of sense. You talk about, you know, acts of service, and I think you like to talk about i.need. Can you explain to our listeners what is i.need?

Marc-John (21:47)

Yeah.

Marc-John (21:51)

⁓ I like your questions. ⁓ Yeah, Aini is a Quechua word and Quechua of course is a language that is ⁓ native to the Andes Mountains all the way from like Tierra del Fuego in Argentina right up to La Peninsula de la Guajira between Colombia and Venezuela right all the way through the Andes Mountains there are different dialects of Quechua. ⁓ so the Andean people of course they have their sacred traditions they have their own cosmology.

Marc-John (22:20)

⁓ and a core part of these Andean sacred traditions is the concept of Ayni. And it just basically means sacred reciprocity, but it doesn’t necessarily mean like, today I’m doing you a favor, so more you need to do me a favor. Like it’s not about one-upmanship or balancing power between people and acts, not necessarily. Ayni just literally means that it’s the nature of the cyclical, the cyclical nature of the universe, like we’re

Marc-John (22:49)

energy is taken from one place, is transformed and given to another place, right? So like, just like the ⁓ clouds, they give rain to places that need the corn to grow. And then ⁓ once ⁓ that happens, then the sun will lift the moisture back from the ⁓ land and create more clouds. And then the wind will take the clouds to another place where rain is needed, right? Just like fire, you know, gives

Marc-John (23:19)

us something that we need in heat and sustenance, warmth, right? ⁓ And we are able to also give back to nature through fire. We are able to make offerings to the fire, give things to the fire. ⁓ And also we are able to collect the ashes from the fire and take the energy of that fire and move it into another fire, right? Like this is Aini. It basically just means reciprocity. And you know, there are similar philosophies.

Marc-John (23:49)

that are part of what in North America are called the beauty way. It’s called the beauty way. In the Andes, it’s called ⁓ sumac causai. And in Guarani, of ⁓ the Tupi-Guarani people, it’s called teko poran. Just meaning living in right relationship, living in the beauty way, in the beautiful way, in the beauty way, in right relationship. Just meaning take what you need, but no more, and give as much as you take.

Marc-John (24:18)

Not necessarily to the same place, to the same person, to the same thing, but other places in your life, you know. One person might do you a favor and loan you money today or gift you money today and then in six months you gift something to somebody else and just make sure that you are keeping in right relationship by reciprocating with life in this way.

Sam Believ (24:44)

That’s a very, very valuable Indigenous wisdom. Speaking of Indigenous people, you you talk a lot about the reciprocity, Indigenous reciprocity. Can you tell us something about it?

Marc-John (24:57)

Yes. Yes.

Marc-John (25:02)

Yeah, indigenous reciprocity is, I mean for me it’s crucial. You know, because it allows us to one, re-indigenize, yes, bring this sacred principle of Ayni into our modern lives, but most importantly, most importantly, given the fact that the indigenous populations only make up like what, seven, eight percent of the planetary population, but the… ⁓

Marc-John (25:30)

are at the forefront of taking care of like 80 to 90 % of the planet’s natural resources, right? ⁓ And those are the ones that are most, they’re on the frontline of climate change. They’re most affected by our ravenous ways in the Western world, our, know, Dubai, New York, Los Angeles, Tokyo, London, these super, you know,

Marc-John (25:57)

energized and extractivist places that are fueled by extractivism. The effects, the biggest effects of this are received by the world’s living indigenous populations, even if we are blind to it in the big cities. ⁓ And ⁓ now, by living in this way, in this way of London and Tokyo and New York and Dubai and all these big cities,

Marc-John (26:27)

extractivist extractivism fueling our consumerism ⁓ because of this we we in the modern world we are losing our connection one to ourselves to our community and also to the natural world to our own indigenous nature and this is what is taking us to using psychedelics in the first place these ancient indigenous medicines ⁓ and for us to even think that we can be using

Marc-John (26:57)

these indigenous medicines to heal our malaisies, which are really like self-imposed by the society that we have chosen to create for ourselves without giving anything back to the indigenous populations. you know, whilst the indigenous populations are becoming extinct, know, languages becoming extinct, tribal values becoming extinct, know, indigenous traditions becoming extinct, all because

Marc-John (27:24)

you know, more and more of the world is being sucked up by this like Western kind of globalized capitalistic drive. indigenous reciprocity is that is making sure that we are giving back to the indigenous populations that we are learning so much from and now have the blessing of being introduced to all of their sacred medicines to heal the malaise that we imposed on ourselves by creating this crazy world that we’ve created. Like to not give back.

Marc-John (27:53)

you know, like feeding more of this disease of extractivism and consumerism. ⁓ So that’s indigenous reciprocity, making sure that for, you know, all the profits that we are making, that we are continuing to take care of the indigenous populations. ⁓ And also as this whole psychedelic renaissance, as you will, if you will, should I say, this whole psychedelic renaissance that we, you know, we might refer to it as.

Marc-John (28:21)

as this continues to expand and expand and expand more and more people learning about psychedelics to continue to give authority and a strong seat at the table of conversation and influence and ⁓ authority to the indigenous populations because they are the original bearers of these medicines, the original forefathers of these medicines. So to have conferences and events and

Marc-John (28:48)

scientific developments and everything with only white men with shirts and ties on, you know, like part of indigenous reciprocity is continuing to keep these voices alive and give them authority as this whole scene continues to expand.

Sam Believ (29:10)

Yeah, this is really important. kind of, I think about it also sometimes. And for me, my way of doing it is to work with an indigenous shaman, to work with his lineage so that obviously if we do make money, part of it goes back to them and they can, you know, pay the indigenous workers that work with them and…

Sam Believ (29:37)

plant more ayahuasca, you know, and do good things. So it’s like that makes sense. And also grounding, grounding myself in that tradition from that point of view, I think as long as you have the connection to the actual lineage and their wisdom, there were the people that kept that traditional life for thousands of years. And we can’t just come and kind of cherry pick it and ignore the fact that we have to be grateful for them. And as you know,

Marc-John (29:38)

you

Marc-John (29:51)

Okay.

Sam Believ (30:06)

Summa Causae and Aini as you described that makes a lot of sense. You talk about us as a society kind of going crazy and disconnecting from ourselves. Can you talk about the opposite of it? How can we live a heart centered life?

Marc-John (30:12)

⁓ This is exactly what I refer to as re-indigenization of self, ⁓ yeah, I think number one, know, simple, like re-indigenization is a little bit intimidating, like, wow, what does that mean? You know, like,

Marc-John (30:41)

Like number one man is ⁓ what gives you joy? know, like what actually lights you up as a person? Where does your joy lie? What gives you joy? What do you feel passionate about? You know, ⁓ and how can you do more of that in your life? How can you cultivate more of that in your life? Like how can you build your entire life around like yourself? You’re doing it, right? I see that you’re doing it. Like you find

Marc-John (31:10)

what you love, gives you joy, what gives you passion. So you’re like, yeah, let’s go to Columbia and let’s make a retreat center. you know, like that’s, that’s, that’s it. That’s heart centered living. it’s, it’s like living from the heart and building your life around what your heart feels happy with, you know, and in this way, cultivating love in your heart for yourself and for the people that you work with and continuing to spread this, this, this love in everything that you do.

Marc-John (31:38)

You build a company. don’t know if you have cleaning staff at the retreat center, you know, like, I don’t know if you have like, like other members of your team, like other team members, apart from the indigenous medicine people that you work with, but you know, it’s, it’s that it’s like, it’s building a team based on this love and appreciation and, know, helping each of your members of staff and each of your team and every single person that contributes to your work. ⁓ Like, how can we help them?

Marc-John (32:07)

to live from the heart as well. How can we help them to be joyful in life? How can we create an environment that makes them truly happy in their heart? That’s ⁓ step one, which we don’t need the big words like re-indigenization and all the other big words. Do what makes you happy and help others to do the same.

Sam Believ (32:33)

That’s great, great advice. And I must say we started about three, a little more than three years ago now. And as the team has grown, you asked, yeah, we have a team, probably 30 plus people now from kitchen workers, cleaners, drivers and security guards and all gardeners. It’s a big team and marketing people and…

Marc-John (32:57)

Okay.

Sam Believ (33:02)

Ceremony team don’t get me started. We have like eight volunteers right now. It’s crazy But as a team has been growing I can I can see how I think I’m like 50 % joy and 50 % pure stress right now so it’s it’s a personal question for me because somebody I can’t I have not been able to find a way that There is not one person or group of people that carry the pain because business is

Marc-John (33:26)

you

Sam Believ (33:32)

you need the business because everyone needs to be paid for to have that controlled and very smooth experience. But somebody will have to take the brute stress of organizational logistics. So, you know, as a business owner yourself, how do you navigate that?

Marc-John (33:48)

Mm.

Marc-John (33:53)

That’s a great question. And I know what my answer is. is building team cohesion and coherence through space holding, through holding space for them, through connecting to their heart and listening to their pain. Well, maybe not even their pain. ⁓ It doesn’t have to be their pain. It can also be their joy. Maybe they’re not even ⁓ experiencing pain. Maybe all they’re experiencing right now is joy, but to be there to receive it.

Marc-John (34:24)

Like, you know, as the business owner to receive their joy or to receive their pain. The key thing is to create an environment where you receive them fully. All of them, you know, like the emotions that they’re going through right now because their granny is ill and maybe might be dying or, you know, their dog ran away a week ago and it’s causing them pain or, know, whatever is moving for them in their life.

Marc-John (34:53)

for us as the business owners to be able to hold space for this. And again, live from the heart and live from love. ⁓ Give them love, our love, our time, our attention and help them to feel valued, seen, cherished. ⁓ I think this is the… That’s how we roll. We maybe don’t have as big a team as you do if you’re saying that you have like…

Marc-John (35:19)

I don’t know, 30 people, we don’t have that big a team, but that’s the principle with which we operate.

Sam Believ (35:28)

Yeah, it’s not easy to, you know, receive other people’s pain. I’ve definitely done it and it’s new for me. You know, it’s not easy to just kind of sit there instead of just kind of wanting to run away. So I’ve been doing it consciously or unconsciously. Medicine itself helps as well to promote that state in the team. So obviously we have that readily available. But let’s say for me,

Sam Believ (35:57)

make it personal as somebody who is carrying the brute amount of that stress and kind of on the verge of burnout what I know you talk about healing from burnout so can you spread some tell us some good knowledge about how to avoid burnout or how to heal from it

Marc-John (36:18)

Yeah, yeah how to heal from burnout Yeah, I identify the why and in fact, you know like I ⁓ I will give you a I’ll give you a free gift as well that you can you can share with the listeners ⁓ it’s exactly that is trauma to triumph it’s called trauma to triumph and it’s all about healing from burnout to really connect with your why again and

Marc-John (36:43)

And I think that is the anchor point, man, for all potential burnout situations. It is, you know, what brings you joy? Where is your passion and your joy lying? ⁓ who can, who is available in your team to outsource the more stressful, more, you know, even if it’s just in the short term, who is available to outsource some of the tasks to some of the things whilst you can recuperate your, your nervous system, identify what in your

Marc-John (37:13)

world in general brings you joy and upliftment and from that place reconnect with your your why. ⁓ That’s kind of a rough overview but I go I guess I go a little bit deeper ⁓ and more extensive into that in the in the free gift which I will send you I can send you the the free gift and you can also share it with the with the audience it’s like a pdf guide that’s exactly about that from trauma to triumph but also also I would say

Marc-John (37:41)

that we as the business owners, if we are leading in this way, we are holding space for a lot of people. And so the big question comes, who’s holding space for us? And that’s why ⁓ business owners, need coaches, we need confidants, we need mentors, we need people that can sit and receive our pain. Because if we’re receiving everybody else from the team’s pain and…

Marc-John (38:09)

Dealing with that stress, we need people that can hold space for us too, right? ⁓ And that journey is like, I don’t think it ever ends, man. Yeah. Does it end, you know, like whilst the world is run on the systems that it’s run on right now and we need to be like producing like a business all the time. That’s just a fact of, you know, the world that we’re currently living in. We all need space held for us.

Sam Believ (38:21)

So.

Marc-John (38:38)

even spaceholders. ⁓ Every leader needs a leader. Every coach needs a coach. Every mentor needs a mentor. Every medicine man needs a medicine man. Right? ⁓

Sam Believ (38:48)

Yeah, yeah, definitely having a coach helped me a lot. for those of you who are listening, if you’re running a business, get a coach. And as you say, you know, yeah, we can, yeah, reach out to Mark. He’s a coach. So, but we still live like we can have

Marc-John (39:01)

I’d be happy to coach you. ⁓

Sam Believ (39:11)

Conscious businesses and hard centered businesses, but we still live in a in the society that is very Capitalistic and we need to obey by certain rules because if we don’t If it doesn’t matter how hard centered your business is When you have no money you go bankrupt and then all your workers lose their jobs So you gotta you gotta obey by those rules and that I think that Dichotomy is very difficult one to manage like running a spiritual business in a non spiritual

Marc-John (39:34)

Okay.

Sam Believ (39:42)

economy is not easy, but still possible. So I’m not using this episode to complain. We’re doing pretty good. And it’s just like, there’s certain difficulties. Yeah, talk to us about coaching. You mentioned being a coach. what is your

Marc-John (39:45)

Right? It’s possible.

Sam Believ (40:10)

methodology of coaching and how does how do plant medicines help you in that

Marc-John (40:17)

Yeah, of course, like I said, I developed the i3 method, know ⁓ intention inception and integration Each ⁓ each phase has you know, four or five different Channels, let’s just say of activity and exercise and skills and tools to be developed and That’s when we are working through like programs that it features psychedelic healing

Marc-John (40:47)

⁓ we run retreats down in Peru and you know, they are eight week programs. So two weeks of preparation, ⁓ 10 days on site in Peru and then five weeks of integration. ⁓ that’s for the psychedelic healing piece, but in terms of, ⁓ coaching, you know, integral performance coaching, ⁓ as you call that in the beginning, you know, you could call it integral performance coaching. That’s what I like to call it because it’s integral.

Marc-John (41:17)

to the performer. It’s allowing the high performer to live in ways that are integral, meaning that every single part of himself or herself is made peace with ⁓ and is integrated so that they live wholesome, in a wholesome way, so that they live as a whole being. ⁓ the way that I do it, so we just, ⁓ we identify all of the areas of a person’s life that are like most alive and most

Marc-John (41:47)

⁓ Either giving them lots of life force or draining them from life force. Whatever is most present in their life, we identify everything that is present in their life. ⁓ We analyze each area that they identify. ⁓ And we give it a little bit of ⁓ a score, if you will. Is it currently good? Is it giving us lots of life force or is draining us of life

Marc-John (42:14)

And if it’s draining us of life force, then what can we do to change it? If anything, right? And from there, ⁓ yeah, together we, based on all of that, we ⁓ work together. Again, it’s thought partnership. I’m partnering with the person in their thought processes and emotional processing so that together, based on all of those areas that we’ve identified, that’s either giving life force or draining life force.

Marc-John (42:42)

the areas that need to change so that it gives us more vitality, gives us more life force, we will use that and create like an outcome statement, which forms, you know, like the light at the end of the tunnel ⁓ for that person. And we co-create that outcome statement. It’s like almost like a mantra, like a script of the life that you desire to be embodying and living. ⁓ And then from there, ⁓

Marc-John (43:11)

we create what you might call a map or a pathway ⁓ identifying like what are the characteristics of this life? What are the characteristics? How do you define it? You know, is it abundant? Is it compassionate? Is it fruitful? Is it fulfilling? All of these words, we map them out. ⁓ And based on that, we then identify clearly, succinctly, precisely.

Marc-John (43:40)

What is it that is standing between where you are right now and being able to say, okay, with conviction, I am a full embodiment of all of this, the outcome statement and everything that defines a life lived as this outcome statement. And then our coaching works on all of these areas to target all of these areas to bring them ⁓ to either get rid of them.

Marc-John (44:10)

and stop doing them and get them out of your life if necessary and possible. And if not possible, but necessary, not possible to get them out of your life, but necessary to change them so that they stop draining your life force ⁓ and start giving you life force, then we focus on how to do that. And that is, I mean, I work with, ⁓ I just got a message, a photo message through from one of my clients, just like.

Marc-John (44:38)

20 minutes before coming on this interview and he was holding a gold medal from the IBJJF European Championship ⁓ in his hand. IBJJF is Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Federation. So he’s just been at the European Championships, won gold, one of my clients. ⁓ And I work with other people like, know, CEOs of investment firms in London, CEOs of boutique property development companies.

Marc-John (45:08)

CEOs of online education platforms, also like music production managers as well. have quite an interesting array of different clients and I’m so blessed to be working with clients that are so amazing and so inspirational. I guess the final thing I will say on that is ⁓ everything I have just mentioned to you, everything I’ve just explained to you, it is all laced, completely laced with…

Marc-John (45:37)

ancestral wisdom and indigenous healing practices. So sometimes I’ll find myself with the drum chanting for the client and guiding them through altered states of consciousness, even without medicine psychedelics, you know, helping them if there’s something like, you know, deep in their childhood or something that needs to be looked at and healed. This is also, you know, one of the ways that I, I helped them through this. Because sometimes when we’re running businesses, actually the limitations we come to

Marc-John (46:08)

is like a childhood trauma, you know? Same with politicians and everybody that’s out there leading in the world. Big business, small business, politics, sports, music, we’re all subject to psychology. so, ⁓ yeah, the ancestral healing technologies that I lace through my coaching really helps with these pieces.

Sam Believ (46:33)

Thank you, John. Thank you for explaining it all and thank you for the wisdom you shared in this episode. Before we wrap up, do you want to tell people where they can find you and learn more about you?

Marc-John (46:47)

Sure, yeah. Instagram, my Instagram handle is ⁓ marcjohnbrown. Facebook is facebook.com forward slash ⁓ markjohn.brown. ⁓ Our website is nativewisdomhub.com. I work together with my wife who is representative of the Chanka people of Apurimac in the Peruvian Andes. ⁓

Marc-John (47:12)

And of course I will send you a free gift man. I don’t know if you have show notes where you can include a link to this free gift. I will give it to you. I’ll give it to you for sure. Have a read through it and let ⁓ your audience as well have a read through it. It would be my pleasure to know gift it to you. Yeah.

Sam Believ (47:27)

That was good, Mark. Thank you for that.

Marc-John (47:31)

All right.

Sam Believ (47:32)

Thank you guys, you’ve been listening to Alaska Podcast. As always, we do the whole assembly of and I will see you in the next episode.

Marc-John (47:41)

Thank

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with Mike and Kelly, a couple who visited LaWayra Ayahuasca retreat earlier this year and fell in love with it so much that they decided to retire in Colombia.

We touch upon topics such as:

How Mike and Kelly discovered Ayahuasca and what brought them to LaWayra

Their life-changing experiences with Ayahuasca at the retreat

The decision to retire in Colombia and the challenges they faced

What makes life in Colombia so fulfilling for them

Why LaWayra feels like home and their ongoing connection to the retreat

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats, go to http://www.lawayra.com.

About the Guests:
Mike and Kelly are a retired couple from the United States who discovered a new purpose and sense of community through Ayahuasca. Now living in Colombia, they spend their time embracing the culture and supporting the transformative work done at LaWayra.

Transcript

Mike: You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast.com, people from all around the world coming here and in such a very short period of time. Because of that vulnerability, you truly bond and embrace where they become people that we’ve talked to since our first visit, still to this day, like family. And that’s had a huge impact of, for me, switching from working to live and then finally living and giving back.

It had such meaning. So all that hard work paid off and the safety here, there’s a community, there’s people here that if you need something, they’re available. There’s a doctor on staff should something happen. ’cause that was one of our concerns. We live out in Fredonia. It’s out in the mountains. We call ourselves mountain men with cell phones because we still have access to a high speed internet.

We still have access to a doctor. We get to go to the small villages like Fredonia and Esia and already made friends there through the universe connecting us and telling our story with them. And

Sam Believ: in this episode of Ayahuasca podcast, I have a conversation with Mike and Kelly. There are a couple who recently retired at Laira. We talked to them about why they chose to retire at Lara. And joining our community, we talk about the importance of community. They share their experiences of retiring in Columbia and living in Columbia.

How our people like, how is weather like and everything. Enjoyed this episode. This episode is sponsored by Laira Ayahuasca Retreat. At Laira, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity. Laira, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you, Mike, and Kelly. Tell us a little bit about what brought you to Ayahuasca, what brought you to ra, and why then you decided to stay.

Mike: A really good question. For me personally, I couldn’t describe how or why or what, but I had a strong desire and learned later it’s called the calling as to what brought me to La Yra. We had researched other ways to do ayahuasca for healing, and I kept gravitating back to La Wra for the family atmosphere for the amount of trust and safety that I saw through some of the other videos.

So that brought me here to experience the ayahuasca ceremony. And I can honestly say that I was nervous and scared at first and going through it, my mind was put at so ease with the amount of safety and trust going through the medicine with the music vibrations. Allowed me to relax.

The breath work beforehand allowed me to become in a calming state in the maloca. So it took over. And then through the medicine, I was truly able to get what I needed, not what I thought I wanted. It was really healed in a lot of ways with the anxiety that I had my mind would race. Looking for solutions that didn’t need to be solved.

It allowed me to have an inner sense of calmness and understanding of truly the things I’ve experienced in trauma and my life that it allowed a lot of healing, forgiveness, not for anybody else, but for myself to be able to let go. And when we walked away from the event, the amount of group therapy through the word circles, along with the medicine was transformative for me personally.

And when we went home, coworkers, people saw a difference in the way I. With thinking, behaving and reacting and doing, and I had such a sense of healing through some of that. I no longer take my anxiety medications and things. I’m able to work through it using nature meditation and reflecting back through integration of what I learned.

And through that experience, I had such a strong desire to make a change in my life, along with my husband Kelly, that I no longer wanted to work to live. I wanted to live and not race the clock. And we came to the conclusion that for us it was a great opportunity for us to be able to give back and help others in holding space in a way that truly helped us.

And couldn’t have done it without this man right here as support and open-mindedness and with his honesty. Kelly, what about you?

Kelly: So I’ll try to be as brief and concise as possible. You want to We have time. Yeah, we have time. Yeah. Okay. In going back to 2019, I I lost my husband, partner of 32 years suddenly and unexpectedly, as and I had experienced a very powerful psychedelic medicine exper encounter through a shaman with the Hopi tribe, and experienced a, like I mentioned, an incredible amount of healing.

And it literally saved my life when I lost my husband, I did end up a month after his passing. Once I took care of the services and took care of coordinating everything, I decided that I no longer wanted to be, in this world, be present here. I ended up attempting suicide and I was successful.

I took enough that I did die and I was brought back. I was found I used to say unfortunately before Ayahuasca, I would say unfortunately I was found. Now I can with my entire heart, say, fortunately I was found and I was rushed by ambulance to the hospital where again I did die. And they revived me.

I, when I, even with the amount of drugs, I took 30 Vicodin and a handful of sleeping pills. ’cause I wanted to make sure I had enough to do the job, get it done. And even with all that in my system, I knew when they brought me back, I knew I had gone through the veil, cross through to the other side, which was beautiful, an amazing experience.

But it was short lived and. When I was brought back through when I was revived or brought back to life, I was angry and upset, and I can even recall choosing to go back over. I was like, no I’m just surrendering to death and I’m gonna go ahead and die. And then I went, I died again. And then I was revived one once more.

And then I was institutionalized for a little while. And then I had family and friends were put in charge of me and I spent a great deal of time being watched 24 7, was not able to close the bathroom door even for privacy. And I started seeking answers to how can I experience going through the veil without putting all my family and friends through that same trauma again.

And then I was I did end up finding a medicine called five M eeo, or five Methoxy Dimethyl Tryptamine. We also known as Bufo. And that’s where I met with the Shaman from Hopi Reservation and had an amazing, incredible experience that, again, saved my life. I say I attribute that to saving my life now.

So I started learning more, experiencing more opportunities to dive into the psychedelic community. I joined the Portland Psychedelic Society. I sold the house that my deceased husband and I had owned, and moved to a tiny house that I purchased over the internet and then went to Oregon area close to Portland and stayed there while I was researching more and learning more about psychedelic medicine.

And I had initially researched Ayahuasca. But then when I, ayahuasca led me to learning about DMT, and then when I found out about five M-E-O-D-M-T, I had in my research found out that was touted or known as the strongest psychedelic known a man. And so I was, and on the planet.

So I thought that’ll take me back through the veil, which was my intention. I did go back through the veil and again, it saved my life and led me on this path that ultimately led me to, exploration with psilocybin or mushrooms, magic mushrooms and other modalities of healing. Always with ayahuasca in the back calling me, I always, I felt like I, for some reason, I felt like I really need to experience ayahuasca.

I did a lot of integration, which for those who don’t, may not know integration is. Working with different techniques to incorporate your powerful psychedelic experience into living in this world. Unfortunately, there was that part of me that was always homesick. I always wanted to go back home again.

That means to me going back through the veil. So anytime I would participate in a medicine ceremony myself, I would cross over and become preoccupied with that, wanting to be there, wanting to be on the other side. So I never fully landed my feet back into this place. And I always felt like I was a stranger in a, like a sojourner in a strange land, like I didn’t belong.

And just constantly missing that, that long, having that longing and that missing for home, what I called home. Then I met Mike through a hiking group on Facebook, and I never thought I would. Have feelings for another person because, 32 years with one person and an incredible bond and an amazing experience of love and living together.

I just couldn’t see that taking place. But when I met Mike, it started, something started opening up in my, and I made you cry. The tears always seen Flo, something started opening back up again. And, but even with that, I always had that longing. Like I, I was preoccupied with, I don’t wanna become too attached because I want to have that longing, continuously, that longing for going to the other side and crossing back through the veil.

And in some sense, I felt like that was what was intended for me. Like I, I felt like I cheated death and I wasn’t supposed to be here. And so I didn’t want to be unfair to Mike. I didn’t want. To set him up for, I thought maybe I’ll even die in my sleep. I honestly, I felt so connected to the other side that, you know, and fortunately I still do.

However, we were talking about taking a vacation and I never wanted to push psychedelic medicine onto Mike even after I spent a year and a half helping people take journeys and helping people integrate their experiences and working with individuals and helping them to heal. But I’d never fully healed myself.

And we were talking about vacations, looking into options, and I had shared, of course, my story and my experience and tried not to talk too much about it because I didn’t know how interested Mike was or would be. And when we discussed the vacation, he said maybe we could do one of those Ayahuasca retreats.

And I went, really? And we were even thinking about going to Hawaii. And he had started researching and found Lara. And so he was sharing with me what he was finding. We looked at a lot of options, including Peru, for, for some reason it seems like a lot of people think automatically Peru. That’s come, it comes to the forefront of a lot of people’s minds automatically with ayahuasca. And so when he mentioned, this is in Columbia, we’re looking at it and we started really investigating, reached out, we actually communicated with you Sam, and your answers were always resonating perfectly with what we were seeking.

And then we looked at your mission, the mission of Lo Ira, and we looked at how you offer the medicine affordably and you make it attainable, which is something that we think is important for anyone wanting the medicine. Both of us feel that way now entirely. And so we decided, let’s do it.

We saw the attention to safety. We saw the attention to integration, which. As I mentioned, I know the importance of, and I came here with an intention of just trying to get answers and trying to find out how I can not continue to feel like such a stranger in this land so that I wouldn’t be a stranger, become a stranger to Mike and our relationship.

And when we came for 11 days, the last two of the medicine ceremonies, I had many powerful experiences and every single one powerful. The last two, I had a such a significant breakthrough where I realized my preoccupation with crossing through the veil, I wasn’t even completely aware of it. And so I, I became I obtained a heightened sensitivity to an understanding of you are in this world, you belong in this world, you have someone who loves you, who deserves to be loved, so much. And so the breakthrough helped me to put my feet back on the ground. And then I think it’s also helped me to become an even more effective integrator. Some, someone for myself and for others. And now that we’ve, we decided let’s look into a property. Let’s see if we can find something near LoRa so that we can have an opportunity to come and show support for the, for your dream, for your vision, for what you’re manifesting.

And when we reached out to you and you said, it’s funny you reach out, we just today just today you said you had someone at this property tell you that the property, they’re looking to sell it. We follow synchronicity. We believe in synchronicity. And so we paid attention to the signs and then.

It’s been almost six months or maybe seven, six or seven months later, and here we are, we’re now part of the LOA growing, LoRa growing community. We’re members of the community and we’re, we are contributing, we’re able to, come and participate with those that are coming from all over the world.

We just recently sat down, we were talking about how we had breakfast with a group of people, and that here we have people coming from, where it was someone from Brazil, someone from Israel, someone from Iran, someone from Netherlands, someone from Germany, someone from Japan Ethiopia.

There were so many countries represented at the table where we sat and broke bread together and these are all people coming for the same thing for a sense of understanding of their purpose and for a sense of love and community. And we’re excited to be. At this stage in the growth of the community and we’re looking forward to seeing more join us.

Sam Believ: Thank you Mike and Kelly, thank you for sharing your story. I’ve heard it a few times, but it never ceases to amaze me. And Mike is a cry, cries

Mike: I’m town choir. I am not a, definitely with Ayahuasca, the vulnerability of being part of the group. You drop all over your fears. Things that I wouldn’t normally be able to talk to with close relatives or close loved ones.

When you’re in that group setting and you’re letting down that wall and you open up there is truly where the healing begins. And that vulnerability. Yes, I’m the town crier, where as an pac I feel other people’s emotions and the relatability to their stories triggers things in myself.

Sam Believ: And for those of you watching us on video, and if you don’t, I recommend check the YouTube version of this podcast behind us.

You could see this beautiful two story house. This is where. Mike and Kelly are gonna be retiring and you can also see their dog walking around. The story about this house is really interesting. It’s a very Colombian story. So when we brought the property where Lara is, which is four hectares altogether, and 2% of this property belonged to another person that basically owns this little piece.

And I always was a little stressed about it. I didn’t like the setup because it does not define which part of the property he actually owns. So the day one day he calls me the owner of this property. He says, I really wanna sell it. There’s an apartment in managing I wanna buy. And do you know anyone?

And then the same day, a few hours later, Mike and Kelly called me and say is there any property nearby? So synchronicities, we believe in synchronicities. They are everywhere in our life. LoRa is a result of a synchronicity. In itself. And the reason we’re here is a synchronicity. Everything is synchronicity.

So that caught my attention. And then, and Mike and Kelly’s attention as well. So we started this process and it lasted for, what, three months? How long how long since how long from the moment you came to retreat to you actually coming and settling here. Oh, what was, it was about five or six months.

Kelly: Yeah.

Sam Believ: So it was a relatively quick decision, but maybe last three months of that it was just making it work. So it was it was an interesting process. But, yeah, a lot of people know LA Wire as an Ayahuasca retreat, and that’s what we are. But there’s another side to LA Wire, another facet, which is community.

We want to create a conscious community of people who wanna live their life differently. And for the Lair Retreat, the motto is connect, heal, grow, and that’s what we do and achieve every time. But for the community part is come for ayahuasca and stay for the community. The way it works is people come.

They experience ayahuasca and they experienced this opening and sharing with people vulnerably. They feel the love, they feel support, and then they might think, I’m working online I don’t really need to be anywhere. Or I’m retired, so I don’t really need to be anywhere. I’d rather just stay here.

And that’s the, that’s how the community is growing. So Mike and Kelly are the very first so we have our team, we have our permanent team members, we have our volunteers, and we have people that come here. I think the longest stay was maybe three months. Somebody who just rented a cabin and they stayed with us and worked online, Drake and Ayahuasca, et cetera.

But Mike and Kelly are here for 15 years so that they’re forming this nucleus of this community that hopefully will grow and burgeon on its own and gonna be a organism, this beautiful thing we’re trying to create. But the idea is, for somebody to just I think that somebody who experiences low wire and feels that feeling after, this work with without was and opening date, a lot of people don’t wanna leave.

Like every time the bus comes, people are there for an hour and saying goodbye and they don’t really wanna leave. Sometimes they have to, but what our guess is we have a coworking space and we have a high speed internet, 500 megabits. So some of the remote workers, people that are retiring, hopefully, eventually will start to stay here and the community will grow.

And then as you have, the bigger the community, the more entertained, the more connections you have. And obviously people will still be drinking ayahuasca here and there and working on their own healing journey. So I am very excited about that. But what we’ll do now is we will move our position to the shade because it is really hot and sunny here in Columbia.

Not too hot and sunny. And we’ll talk about the nitty gritty of retiring in Colombia. So guys how does it feel retiring in Colombia? And what’s the process like? What are the unexpected things and what are the exciting things? What are maybe not exciting things?

Mike: Let me start, and I’m gonna start out of order because it’s the payoff that I think is the most impactful in the mornings.

I have my routine of coming out to our hammocks, laying down, watching the mountains, watching the cows walk across the pastures. Let me just quickly show your view to, yeah, it’s, when I lay in this hammock and I can see the cows walking across the pasture I can see the fog coming in some days, or the sunshine just coming over the mountains.

It is just the most meditational aspect of my morning that I like to start off with. So that for me is the biggest payoff in terms of being part of the community. But having this serenity, I was a workaholic. I was a bank manager for 30 years for a nonprofit bank, and it was a very intense job.

And through the healing, I also learned that I needed to start to put myself first and the life I was living needed to change for my own wellbeing. So making that decision. It just was one of those where I knew I had to do that and we had the opportunity to make it happen. Yes, it was a lot of work.

It was, we had a home together that we only owned for a year, and we had all of our belongings in it with like nautical oil paintings and collected stuff. But it was an easy decision and it was a freeing decision to say, let’s put our house up on the market, sell it. Get that process started, have a way to give some of our favorite items to our loved ones of friends that we had in Portland.

So we knew they were going to good hands. The universe brought us some really good people to help us sell some of the other collectible belongings to afford us the privilege to make the move happen. So we sold the house and we said, we’re starting fresh. This new chapter, it’s not belongings that mean the most to us, it’s each other.

My husband, myself, and my dog. We came here with just five suitcases and got rid of everything else to have a real true fresh start. And there’s something freeing about that. Releasing your belongings, which really mean nothing. It’s the experiences in life and what you carry from inside that means the most, and that has been the most impact.

All of the work has paid off. We. Even how to find a way to get our dog here. I’ve had Cooper since he was three years old and he’s an emotional support animal for me when I was going through a lot of anxiety. So cool boy. Best boy ever. He is such a good boy. I call him my little moose ’cause he’s pretty big.

But he’s my goofball and he’s helped me heal as well by giving me big hugs. Any comments coops? Cool. But even the challenge of how to bring the dog, we found out through the universe handing us people and communicating. We found that we had to do a couple different steps and, found the perfect airline to get him on, which required us to road trip with him from Portland, Oregon to Los Angeles.

And then it allowed us the opportunity to spend time with one of our close friends in the southern California area. And got him on the plane with us and he did so good on the plane. I was so grateful. And then we landed here where it’s wow, we have the three of us and we have this home and we have the views, the mountains, and most importantly the people here.

And a way to give back the way it’s impacted us. We get to experience a constant on flow of people from all around the world coming here and in such a very short period of time. Because of that vulnerability, you truly bond and embrace where they become people that we’ve talked to since our first visit, still to this day.

Like family. And that’s had a huge impact of, for me, switching from working to live and then finally living and giving back. It had such meaning. So all that hard work paid off and the safety here. There’s a community, there’s people here that if you need something, they’re available. There’s a doctor on staff should something happen.

’cause that was one of our concerns. We live out in Fredonia. It’s out in the mountains. We call ourselves mountain men with cell phones because we still have access to a high speed internet. We still have access to a doctor. We get to go to the small villages like Fredonia and Esia and already made friends there through the universe connecting us and telling our story with them.

And a lot of them are now saying, oh, we’re intrigued. Just send me the link to the wire. Tell me more. And we’re very open about all of that because what it’s done for us, so all that hard work has really paid off. We’ve even got things like our driver’s license going so that we can give ourself the ability to go on road trips to waterfalls and rivers and explore more, which in my past life was spending a lot of time camping and backpacking to get away from the work life and disconnect for a weekend.

Now I’m living that I get to disconnect and connect with nature on a regular basis and with people that just I can give my heart to and they’re absolutely embracing it and benefiting by it, and then in turn I benefit by it. So a lot involved, but so worth it. What about you, Kelly?

Kelly: Yeah. What do you think about Colombian people?

Oh my God. The people are amazing. The people here are incredible, and Mike and I are not fluent Spanish speakers by any stretch of the imagination. And we know very little. And so we are enrolled in classes for Spanish online. So the beauty of having the high speed internet connection is that we have been able to sit down or do the classes, but we’re learning fast.

We’ve literally, it took us a little while to get things settled in with the coursework. And we finally did a few weeks ago, and even yesterday when I went down to Meine and was taking the exams for the driver’s license, talking with the staff there, they, they started asking, where are you from?

And. And they asked some questions and so some things I didn’t quite understand, but I started telling ’em, but possibly and,

and so basically what I just said, if you don’t know Spanish, is that we’re enrolled in school and that we’ve only been enrolled for three weeks and we are learning Spanish in that in three or four months we expect to be able to speak much more fluently. But they were surprised even taking the exact, the eye exam, going, reading off the numbers, I was able to read off the numbers in Spanish, of course, and then when they would gimme direction, for fingerprinting and everything, I was able to follow and knew what they were asking.

Already it comes fast, but that’s also the beauty of the immersion here with the staff at Lara who speaks Spanish, are so friendly and so nice and they’ve been corresponding with us to help us. And when we say something, they’ll let us know if we’re saying it correct or if we need to adjust how we’re saying it.

So that immersion is helping us to learn the language more quickly.

Sam Believ: So your Spanish classes was also part of your Visa acquisition. So talk to me about that. How, what options did you find? How does, how did it work?

Kelly: Because we retired early, like Mike said, we decided, we’re not gonna just live to work.

We’re gonna retire early. So just live to work. You’re gonna work to live? Yeah. We’re gonna wait. We busy.

Mike: Yes. Yeah. What I mean by phrase, all I was doing was working, and then finding a pocket of time to live a little bit. And I was buying stuff on Amazon. Stuff I didn’t need. Yeah. So I reversed that and said, I don’t need to work so much ’cause I don’t need so much.

I need experiences. So now I can shift that and now I can live more versus work more. So the hardest part for me was putting in that notice at work and saying, this is gonna be my last day at work. They didn’t even believe me because of how much of a hard worker I was and such an integral part of the banking system.

But I had to do something for myself and then for my husband and for my life to change that. So that’s why I say now I’m living in life. I’m not working to live.

Sam Believ: Yeah. We used to, we now have you as a hard worker here at LA Wire Volunteer. We’ll talk about that part later. But the, there’s something you just described as I don’t know if you’ve seen a fight.

But this famous quote, we we work jobs, we hate to bite things. We don’t need to impress people we don’t like. Yeah. Or, so yeah. What we’re doing here at LA is basically the opposite of that, which is connections first and then very little or none of possessions and stuff like that.

We all wear same t-shirts. But yeah, talk to us about the visa process.

Kelly: Yeah. So that was something that was a little bit complicated and a little hard to un, difficult to understand at first. And we actually joined a Facebook expat group for Columbia, which has been extremely helpful.

But still you do find that there is some some confusion, some, sometimes people will share information incorrectly, but overall, if you just dive into it and you find the resources you can. You can get to the source of the material that’s needed. But one of the things that Mike and I are excited about is as a part of this community, if people come to Laira and they visit, we’ve already shared with several people who have mentioned the thought, the idea of coming, we explain to them that we researched all the options, the visa options, but we chose student visa because we were going to be studying Spanish anyway.

Ultimately, our intention is to alter that, modify that to be a retirement visa. But with the individuals that we’ve been connecting with, we share information with them and then we say, follow up, follow up with us. Don’t be don’t, you don’t have to learn the hard way. You don’t have to swim through so many muddy waters.

And you were helpful too. We called you and you got us on the phone and you explained to us, some of the Visa options. We just, we’re both have a tendency to really research and maybe over research but we did it and some of the steps involved were, like I said, a little bit challenging, but they’re, so were it, and we retired early, so that was a decision that we made.

Like I encourage people, don’t wait until you’re eligible for retirement. If you can afford to retire early by moving to Columbia, it’s, the cost of living here is so incredibly, it’s so affordable and. By comparison to being where we came from in the United States or any of the other parts of the world.

A lot of the people we talk to, it’s the same, the, a lot of the people we’ve been sharing with recently. But yeah, so the Visa application, we’ve gone through those steps and applied for the student visa. And the day that we were approved, it was a celebration day for us. We expected to be approved, but you never know, you, yeah.

You’re always unsure until you get that final stamp. And then also for the driver’s license and for, learning about we’re going to be purchasing a vehicle. Do you have your schedule already? We did go in and we applied for the Sedula. They are backed up right now. So when you get it, you’ll be so excited as well.

Yes, we’re looking forward. They had initially said six weeks to return to pick that up, but now they’re a few months behind. Because there are really, a lot of people are coming to Columbia. A lot of people are finding Columbia. They are. And the be the beautiful thing about Columbia is that there’s something here for everyone.

We went into PTO and visited, of course, that’s a little more Americanized. That’s where you can go, where a lot of people do speak English. But like Mike mentioned, we like to go into Venetia and we like to go into Fredonia. We’ve made friends there. They speak Spanish, which helps us to speak Spanish.

Sam Believ: Yeah. So let’s talk a little bit about, how it feels to be retired. And I kinda gonna have, offer my thoughts on, it’s like normally, let’s say imagine retiring in a different country where you come to a new place. Like you, you just go and move to managing and you retire.

And then you kinda have to piece by piece, create, find some, meet some people. Good ones, bad ones. So I guess the beauty of you retiring at Lair is not only you got support and like helping finding out how to do it all and limited because I’m very busy, but still I was able to connect it to my lawyer and stuff like that.

But you get a community automatically, it’s like it’s already here and it’s already like pre-filtered cream of the crop people that are working on themselves, people that are able to form emotional connections, because a lot of times, older American people tend to be sometimes very closed up and very traumatized by, an entire lifetime of not being happy.

But talk to me about both of you. What’s the feeling of being retired? Do you find yourself maybe bored or, the common scares and how do you think being at low wire and also being able to volunteer maybe. And gives you some options to not be as bored. Honestly, we haven’t had time to be bored

Kelly: yet because we wish Yeah, we’ve literally been here for five, six weeks.

Yeah. And so we’ve been we wanted to get some of the basic essentials. We went into Fredonia and we’ve learned the bus routes and the taxi routes and all that because we haven’t had a vehicle. But we did purchase a refrigerator and a washing machine. We like to do the drying of the clothes the Columbian way now, which is amazing because now we get to appreciate what it’s like to have clothes that are dried by the sunshine and in the air so it smells so fresh.

It melts like the fresh, not like a fragrance called Fountain Air Fresh. Yeah. It’s the true, it’s the true mountain air fresh. Amazing. Yeah. So we have status and getting enrolled in and starting school, and then also getting acclimated to our volunteer contributions in Lura and we’re figuring it all out and we’re working to determine what our schedules are gonna look like.

But the beautiful thing is that when we left LO Ira after our 11 days stay, we had a community that we had bonded with so incredibly that we knew when we returned, we’re coming back to a community and to a family. And that’s, ’cause that’s what Lare feels like. It’s like a family. And there’s just this sense of, you don’t feel like you’re moving to a strange land with strange people.

You, you come and immediately. Reconnect with the family that you’ve shared through the medicine, through Ayahuasca, you’ve shared with we keep saying vulnerable. You’ve shared your most vulnerable positions in life, and experiences in life. So that sense of family just continues to grow.

And then as far as food, the food here in Columbia is so incredibly tasteful. It’s natural. It’s, the food at Laira is so healthy. And then, you never, you could believe that healthy food could taste so good. When we left LA Wire and went back to the United States and started eating or, processed foods again, we’re like, oh man.

And, that is just one of the many benefits of the community here is come for ayahuasca, stay for the food. Yes. Oh, I can talk about food a lot. Yeah. My, I mean, if I could say anything to anyone considering. Early retirement, or maybe you’re at retirement age. I’m 60, so early retirement i’s 54.

So early retirement we couldn’t do this anywhere else. And that’s honestly just an added benefit that, that we’re able to retire early and live so affordably. That’s an added benefit. The most important aspects of living here is the simplicity of life, the quality of life, and the community, the family.

That’s really what I would sum up as what the greatest appeal is.

Sam Believ: And as in your vol volunteering, ’cause you obviously you’re just starting, we’re giving you easy time so you can figure all, everything. So what do you notice when it comes to how groups come and how groups leave

Kelly: when they show up?

There are a bunch of people who don’t know one another and their. In a sense, a lot of times people show up and they’re a little bit lost. Most people come by themselves. They’re, they come as an individual, as one person on a unique soul journey. And then when they leave as part of a group of people that like we, like I just expressed, that have become their family and they leave having shared so much with one another and hugging and holding each other, crying together, laughing together.

And when they leave the hands down, everyone is I don’t wanna say goodbye. I don’t want to go. I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna leave. And unfortunately we have WhatsApp. We have, but it’s not the same. But the, there’s an opportunity to stay in touch. I should hand the mic to Mike.

Sam Believ: Yeah. People come heavy and leave light like super heavy and they all leave like almost floating. Have, and many

Mike: of ’em when they have the opportunity will extend their stay ’cause they’re not ready to leave. And that’s the beauty to comment on retirement from me. I come from this Italian family that I thought I would be working till the day I died.

Couldn’t afford anything else other than that. So retirement was really never an option. I thought I would just work my way into a assisted living facility and be probably the crazy old man playing poker and having jello with my neighbors. But the change of life of. I am now connected with like-minded individuals that I’m able to give back and share openly with.

It’s a change in life for such the better, for me personally, where I’m retired, but I’m busy. It’s a situation where I’m not working, I’m doing the things that I love and want to do, and I’m searching for ways to find more time to do the things I want, such as spending time helping others, being part of the ceremonies and holding space.

And really what I mean by that is just. Being there present. So if anybody needs anything, I’m there. I’m attentive, and things like that’s not just sitting in a home with people I don’t even know. This is family here with me that knows me from the deepest, darkest sides. And not only they accept and embrace it, but they encourage me to keep speaking about it because it helps them as well.

And then when the. People come in for the trips, they come in not knowing anything, sometimes very nervous. And while we’re having that first meal, we can let them know, you know what, you’re not alone. It’s a little nervous at first, but it’s amazing to see over a short period of time the change in individuals, the change in the community that they found where with that openness Yeah, they’re like family by the end of it that have discussed things that they wouldn’t discuss with a lot of people in their lives.

So that openness just helps. And then the plant medicine allows you to really look from within and share the word circles for me, or a way of sharing your experiences and the relatability. And so retiring for me is I’m not with a bunch of strangers. I’m enriched with the environment within nature.

I’m enriched with people that just get it, that get me, and I get them. So there’s no price tag I can put on that. There’s nothing on Amazon I could buy for that. I don’t need materials as much as I just need that openness and that love and to be able to give somebody a hug, hugs are free and I have an unlimited supply to be able to give out.

So for me that’s the most amazing gift. And then we talk about the food. It’s funny, I didn’t really know too much Spanish back in high school, about 30 years ago. I studied Spanish for three years and I could probably conjugate a herb. But I couldn’t really get through speaking. But being here with the full immersion I find myself through food ’cause I’m a foodie, I love food.

I’ll go and speak with some of the people down at the kitchen and just let them know,

like I speak from the heart when it comes to food and it just opens up that doorway of, the kind people here everywhere. Even in the small villages, there is no stigma of, oh, you’re an American. You must speak our language. I come from the standpoint I was, no, I wanna embrace your culture. Please teach me more about it.

And because of that openness, we just thought a restaurant yesterday and the chef kept bringing up more dishes for us to try and some food to take home with us, and we didn’t speak the same language, but we got through it together. When I say people are kind here, they don’t look for a way to just answer your question.

Oh no. They will hold you by the hand, take you to go get it done and then tell you what else you need to do. It’s a true sense of help. I didn’t know what someone helping other person was till I got here in Columbia. The culture here is just open heart, open mind. They truly want to help and see you.

Embrace the culture more and the food here is absolutely incredible and it’s healthy. Like I look at the avocados, we would get, we’d have to like each eat an avocado and here you get the avocados that are like the size of almost a football that you have to cut in four to be able to eat them, and they’re fresh grown.

There’s all these trees around where you go and you pick a mango and make that into your juice or eat it. Or you pick the avocados from the tree and there’s your food. Talk about the most amazing connection with nature. For sustenance and it’s so healthy, so good. I car Rico, I’m even learning how to pronounce things the proper Colombian way.

So

Sam Believ: What do you think about the facilities, you’re have you already been to the pool or maybe gym? Do you go to the creek? I know. I forgot your dog’s name for some reason. Cooper. I know Cooper. He’s just the creek.

Mike: Yes. That’s funny because I didn’t know where the creek was until Cooper came home.

We had let him outside. There are four to five other dogs already in the property. They’re already best friends. And Cooper runs with the pack. He sits on the little hillside and waits for them to get released, and then they go on a little adventure. Two hours later, Cooper comes home soaking wet and I’m like, so apparently you found the creek.

You’ll have to show me where that was. So even he is embracing the culture of his little petal friends. But yeah, the facilities here, it’s like there is a lot of really good serenity. There is a creek and just the sounds of the creeks or with all of the winds going through the trees and stuff, it just brings a sense of calmness.

And then there are the swimming pool area where you can cool off and hang out with friends. And to the side of that is a view of the mountains which is also just beautiful. There’s a circle of hammocks so you can sit there and someone that you may not even know will come up and we’ll have a conversation, but not just a regular conversation, a truly meaningful, deep conversation about their life and what they’ve gone through.

And it’s a true conversation, not just talking to somebody. Yeah, there was the gym there and it agree. When you walk by to go to the maloca, Sam’s house and waved with kids and get to play with them. I get to teach what I call my little professor. He teaches me some Spanish, I teach him some English so it becomes even fun.

We talk about his toys a lot, but below there. There’s the gym that has all the gym equipment. There are so many these here. And then you walk by the market and the kitchen and you see the staff there. And I love the fact that they don’t really speak English because it helps me to learn the language and how that has helped us to become like family even deeper because there’s a language barrier, but not a love barrier and an understanding barrier.

So every time they’re feeding me, I feel so grateful because they make it with such love. And every meal is just, ooh, I gotta go back and try and recreate this in the kitchen myself ’cause it’s so good. But they cook it with love and they take such good care of us. They even take the fruit from the trees and make juices and I’m always like, I don’t even know what juice this is.

So let me go back to the kitchen and work through what the juice is. It’s amazing the variety of fruits here. And it’s all natural. It’s all organic, no pesticides or any of that stuff. You feel so much healthier. When I went back to the United States and we were eating some of the other food there, it’s I’m gonna gain 30 pounds.

Everything has sugar attitude. Everything has preservatives, attitude. It, everything has additives that make you want to crave more. And now it’s like the healthier eating with the healthier lifestyle. It’s that inner calmness that comes out from all of it together. Absolutely. Beautiful.

Sam Believ: Yeah.

Another part is that for people that, so the view, I’ll show it again yet you might assume that we’re in the middle of nowhere in the jungle, but in reality, once you guys have your car, we’ll be, what, 50 minutes away from Metagene. Yeah that’s how much it takes me to drive. So it’s Metagene is a international hub and there’s a lot of things happening.

So it’s good to, to have that. So what would you tell someone who still thinks Columbia is just Pablos, Kabar and narcos and and the ayahuasca is is a drug? What would you tell those people? Yeah I’ll tell you, when we

Kelly: came, the so many people that care about us, friends and family, and that worry, were worried about us.

Were telling us, you better be careful. You better make sure you know where you’re going. You better, there, there was so much concern and we fortunately had gone on YouTube and done a lot of research on what has transpired in Columbia. And how far removed it is from that whole narco run culture.

And we learned a lot about Communo 13 out, in the Meine area and how that’s been completely transformed and we came with an expectation that things are, calmer, that we thought maybe it’ll be at least as good as the United States. That’s what we were thinking, because in the United States, if you face it, there’s a lot of areas where you don’t go out, neighborhood you don’t go into.

And so we thought it’ll just be one of those situations we’ll just know, we’ll learn where to go and where not to go. We’ve ventured out and everywhere we’ve gone, we’ve been embraced and we’ve had encounters with so many people within the Columbian cities and communities including Uber drivers, taxi drivers, bus driver people in teaching our classes online for Spanish and students in Columbia.

And that we’re connecting with online, that have just embraced us and shared so much about how proud they are of what Columbia is today. I think people would be surprised if they’re still watching shows like The Griselda or they’re watching shows on, that where it gets sensationalized and they come here.

They would, they will be so surprised. And especially if they come from a big city and they go visit a big city and they, like meine, they’ll, first of all, they’ll be surprised at how much of a big city it really is. If they don’t know. It’s, it’s a metropolis and it’s not that far away and we feel like we’re in the middle of nowhere here, but like you said, 50 minutes we can be in the middle of where anything you could imagine that you would want to, have, I mean they have it all in ing but they have it all in with a sense of pride for what Columbia has become, how it’s just.

Been restored and the people stand, we hear the word hope so often, like I guess hope was something that the community embraced was the hope in revitalization, and now they’re living what they hoped for and they’re so proud of it. So yeah I would encourage people visit if, come, even like you say, come for the ayahuasca, you’ll end up staying, come for the ayahuasca.

And you’ll be surprised when, if you fly into Meine, stay the night before and explore a little bit and then, come over, just. Do some YouTube video searches on, what’s happening in Columbia and beware of clickbait. There is, there are people who try to sit, just like the media in the United States.

There are, it’s not as common as it is in the United States, but there is that the people who try to sensationalize and try to get you to click on their videos using fear, and that’s something that the beauty of Lura is there is no fear in Lura and you face your fears internally and you learn to embrace the love of the culture in Columbia.

I hope that answered the question.

Mike: Yeah, I actually have a comment on that too, because. In my walk of life, I’ve lived in New York City, I’ve lived in Boston, I’ve lived in Chicago, I’ve lived in San Francisco, I’ve lived in Oakland, lived in Florida and Pennsylvania. So I was like, oh, wow. Everybody tells you, oh, watch off Columbia.

It, that’s what in the movies of what used to be, but where it is today, I can tell you Metagene, which is so close, like I’m out here looking at the cows and the mountains and serenity, but so close is the feeling of New York City with the artwork, the murals of graffiti that are just all about hope and sending an inspirational message.

Communa 13 used to be like the war zone. Now it’s an art zone where there’s people dancing and artwork that you can purchase and food, lots of food. And it’s so transformed and you hear about Hey, watch yourself. This and that. I can honestly say I’ve lived in New York and I mean it is, I’d be more fearful walking through some of the neighborhoods in New York or even in Boston or any of those than I would be standing in Metagene anywhere.

The people are truly here wanting to embrace and help and welcome you in a way and share that change of where they are today. And that hope being shared versus the fear that’s pushed onto you. I feel so much safer here than I do even in when I lived in Portland, Oregon. In Portland there’s a lot of help needed for the homeless and the camps set up and everything.

Here the community comes together to help each other so you don’t see those same kind of things and the way you feel safe. Even walking through the city streets is not what was projected from the past. It’s help hope. Family. Family is huge here. They even like on some of the days on Sundays, shut down some of the city streets so that the families can come out, be with the community, ride their bikes, walk their dogs, and do all of that.

I’m a dog owner and I love my dog. We even found our way into one of the malls in Meine, which is a huge mall, and they had so many people walking around with their dogs at the food court. They had a special food court that included dogs and everything else, and I was like, they embrace family and including the furry family that’s part of the lives.

It goes that deep of the change and I was just eyes open, heart open, and just welcome and all. It’s so much better than

Sam Believ: even I expected. I remember coming to Columbia first about eight years ago. I was also really afraid that a lot of good things happened to me for not, going with that fear.

Same with Ayahuasca. I was really afraid. First time I was doing ayahuasca. But learned that it was a beautiful medicine and yeah, there’s so many misconceptions. Narcos and this and all the shows and Pablos Kabar is long gone, like 30 years. Like what? Why are you still holding out to that?

Yeah, and what we tried to do with Lara as well is one of our, one of my desires is to slowly, of course it’s gonna take probably my entire lifetime, but rebrand Columbia from cocaine to Ayahuasca. It’s like the, those plants they grow in the same region. And it’s, it would be good to just slowly move away from the bad things and embrace the good things.

Kinda that would be a really good recovery story for Columbia. But I need to somehow get in touch with whoever governs it to give them the slogan. Maybe we will maybe we’ll catch on and, yeah guys, thank you so much for sharing. It’s I think people will find it interesting to see how you can be brave and do crazy things like this.

Move to another country. You retire. It’s like I ask plus Columbia, plus, people think wow, you’re crazy, but who’s actually crazy? You don’t really know. Being stuck in

Mike: your life of just working, working and buying. Yeah. Being stuck in your life and just working, working and buying, buying and competing with the Joneses.

They got a new car. So have to get a new car. I’ve learned, that’s the crazy part actually being here and having inner peace. That’s the beautiful part. The people, the culture, the food. That’s the beauty of it all. What I was living in the States was crazy. People would tell me, oh, you have a lot of courage to do what you’re doing.

And I was like, I. I wouldn’t be sustainable doing what I was doing back in the United States. So without that life change, it wasn’t courage. It was the need for a change for myself. To love myself again. And Ayahuasca really through that journey of planned medicine, helped me to realize and get that internal hug that I deserve it, and that this is the life I got out of it.

I had to do it. That’s what I say, the calling, I don’t even know what to put words into it, but I just knew what we needed to do and I’m so lucky to have the husband I have that was like, without even finishing the sentences, he’s already planning out how we’re gonna make this happen. We’re so in sync.

So to go from this journey together was just. That’s what needed to happen.

Sam Believ: Yeah. People focus a lot on consequences of doing something, but they rarely think about consequences of not doing something. So we just little bit, it’s like that frog that the temperature is slowly rising. It’s hard to notice, but the US is in a dire state now. There’s a lot of mental health issues, a lot of physical health issues, a lot of issues generally. And I’m not saying Columbia is perfect, but here you do feel that sense of things improving and as opposed to like us and Western Europe, kind like you feel everything is like slowly dying.

Mike: Yeah. It’s like a divided country right now where there’s, what you’re seeing is a lot of people with different opinions and it’s not okay for them to keep it to themselves. They have to put it on you. And it’s there’s such a divided country, not even with politics, but just the way people are thinking and it causes chaos and it just it.

You come here and it feels like everybody’s on the same page of having a better life, appreciating the things that are simple, appreciating family, appreciating people, and even with the differences of language or the way somebody looks, it’s embraced here. I’ll even tell the story of, we were concerned of here we are a gay couple coming to Columbia and I come from an Italian background that’s like very machismo and things like that and but you come here in 2016 they recognized same sex marriage.

We’ll be in like a small town and I’ll introduce Kelly as mso. This is my husband and they just wanna give us a hug. And I was at first shocked by that. But even that is so embraced here, that difference, they embrace the differences versus what I see in the United States is if you’re different, then I have to tell you my ways and share my opinion.

And it becomes this big debate where it’s you be you, I’ll be me and let me just coexist. You actually have that here and they appreciate that. And then you go down to the wire and you’re like all of those kind of like perceptions and. The what we wear or what people think or that judging a book by its cover are so completely removed because you have that same open heart.

It doesn’t matter your walk of life or where you’ve come from, what you wear, what you look like, what culture. When I say that it’s about what you want out of life, what you’re getting out of life, and how you wanna help and treat others. It’s that commonality that’s embraced versus causing division.

It’s so eye-opening and so refreshing. Like I know that with the work we had to do to retire, it needed to happen. And it’s the best thing that changed my life. It changed our life. You saw what it looks like out there. It’s, I get to wake up that every day and walk down and see the

Sam Believ: family. Interesting what you said about the judging of people.

You notice sometimes a group comes and you look around and you’re like, oh, this might be this and this has to be this and this. Always you’re wrong. Yes. When the week progresses, people start opening up, you’re like, oh, you are, you’re, and that’s automatic. It’s not like you can say, no, I don’t judge people while you’re lying.

You, we all have this mechanism to automatically assume and then you notice that, you know what, actually I was wrong over and over again.

Mike: I’ll actually glad you mentioned that because I’ve had several occasions where when you’re first sitting around that circle, you don’t even need, or you don’t know anybody else’s names and you’re you don’t want to try to figure out who they are, their walk of life or in their first conversation you hear what they’re talking about or what their concerns are.

And I’m like, oh, this is gonna be a person I’m not gonna bond with at all. And then it’s funny because at the end of the week, those people have been the ones that I bonded with the most that I’m like, oh. We have a lot more in common than anything else. And what I thought was gonna come out of their mouth was nothing like that.

And the other ones that, to this day we still communicate on a regular basis. And I’m like, wow, when I first met you, I didn’t think we would get each other. But that common denominator of what our inner being is, it’s made ourself even stronger.

Sam Believ: And you mentioned about politics, so I just wanna say, yeah we don’t do politics in little while.

People, I’m sure people have different political views, but we just, that’s not important, yeah. Yeah. If you’re tired of politics, we consider coming here. We just, it’s so far away from here. Why would you, why would we even be bothered? Thank you guys for sharing and thank you guys for listening and watching this podcast episode.

For those of you who want to come maybe retire in Columbia. Hopefully it gave you some ideas. For those of you who wanna come to Lara as a retreat and just participate in Ayahuasca ceremony, now you met part of our team and part of our community for those who want to come and retire at Lara.

Now, you know the kind of class of people you will be spending time with, and this is just the tip of the Iceberg War team, and there’s so much love and it’s it almost feels too good to be true. You, it’s because you feel we’ve pinched and wake up from

Mike: it all. And it’s is this reality?

Reality?

Sam Believ: Yeah. Yeah. This side of the veil is good. Yeah. So thank you guys for listening and whenever you’re ready. We’ll be ready to host you. Come for hugs. Yeah, hugs

Mike: are waiting.

Sam Believ: I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you’d like to support us and psychedelic renaissance at large, please follow us and leave us a like, wherever it is you’re listening.

Share this episode with someone who will benefit from this information. Nothing in this podcast is intended as medical advice, and it is for educational and entertainment purposes only. This episode is sponsored by Laira Ayahuasca Retreat. At Laira, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity, laira connect, heal, grow.

Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you.

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with Shawn Wells, a biochemist, best-selling author, and renowned “Ingredientologist” known for formulating over a thousand supplements and patenting 40 unique ingredients.

Shawn shares his journey of overcoming mental and physical challenges and delves into topics including:

[00:28] Transformational journey into nutrition and biochemistry

[05:14] First psychedelic experiences with psilocybin

[12:28] Ayahuasca ceremonies with the Huni Kuin tribe in Peru

[21:22] The role of fasting and supplements in preparation for ayahuasca

[33:39] Neuroplasticity and post-journey integration

[44:21] Longevity lessons from Blue Zones

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats, visit http://www.lawayra.com.

Find more about Shawn Wells at http://www.shawnwells.com or on social media @shawnwells.

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:01)

Hi guys and welcome back to Ayahuasca podcast. As always with you the host Sambiliyev. Today I’m having a conversation with Sean Wells. Sean Wells, Sean, welcome to the show.

Shawn Wells (00:14)

⁓ thank you for having me on.

Sam Believ (00:16)

⁓ Sean, tell us a little bit about your story, ⁓ your life story, maybe a short version just for people to get to know you.

Shawn Wells (00:28)

Wow, you know, I started out ⁓ a kid that was going to go to college for business, marketing, thinking that was going to be my path. ⁓ I actually was someone that was very overweight and ⁓ highly unhealthy from coming from a background of abuse and bullying and

Shawn Wells (00:56)

It was in college that I started working out and really falling in love with supplements and all their potential and as well as nutrition and in particular sports nutrition. I was trying to put on muscle, lose weight, reading all these muscle magazines, going to the GNCs and vitamin shops and reading all the books with Arnold Schwarzenegger and anything I could get my hands on and

Shawn Wells (01:24)

and I had a pretty massive transformation. And like I said, fell in love with supplements and went to a doctor in between my sophomore and junior year of college ⁓ and told him all about my passion. And he saw how my body composition was radically changing. ⁓ And he told me as he drew out a lifeline between 20 and 80, he said, why not be happy between here and here?

Shawn Wells (01:53)

and that totally radically changed my life path. I decided to finish up business school, but go back and get all my prerequisite classes so that I could go get my masters from UNC Chapel Hill in nutrition and biochemistry. And that’s what I wanted to do is to be a supplement formulator. And ultimately that’s what I’ve become. So if it wasn’t for that one doctor, I wouldn’t

Shawn Wells (02:22)

I wouldn’t be on the path and have all the accomplishments I’ve had. ⁓ So it’s pretty incredible that your words have massive impact. I’ll say that. But now I am a formulator, as you’ve talked about, I’ve formulated over a thousand supplements, patented 40 unique ingredients. I have a best-selling book, the Energy Formula.

Shawn Wells (02:50)

⁓ It was listed on Forbes in USA Today. It’s a biohacking book. It’s an acronym for Experiment Nutrition, Exercise Routines, Growth, and Your Tribe, six pillars to have all the ingredients to live a longer and healthier and happier life. ⁓ And I also formulate supplements for many, many companies in the industry. have a company called Zone Halo.

Shawn Wells (03:18)

I’m chief science officer for a company based out of China where we come up with unique ingredients called NNB Nutrition. And then I have a group ⁓ of scientists that I work with from all over the world where we dream up ingredients and that’s called Ingenious Ingredients. And that’s what I’m doing these days. And then of course I do my social media and I speak on stage and all those good things. And I try and educate on

Shawn Wells (03:46)

mindset on psychedelics, ⁓ obviously biohacking supplements. ⁓ I myself have a history of suicidal thoughts, depression, anxiety, all those pieces, as well as a lot of the physical manifestations of those things with a number of autoimmune conditions like Epstein-Barr ⁓ fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, Hashimoto’s, as well as

Shawn Wells (04:16)

⁓ a history of brain tumors and a number of surgeries that I’ve had to have, including two discs put in my neck. ⁓ You know, I had a pretty severe history of mental and physical pain.

Sam Believ (04:32)

Sean, thank you for sharing. ⁓ You sound like a very busy person. So thank you for taking the time off to talk to us. ⁓ you mentioned, you know, the words have power. So hopefully somebody needs to hear this and this will affect their life as well. And given the list of conditions you have listed, you do look pretty great. So I’m sure you’re doing everything right. ⁓

Sam Believ (05:00)

Sean, you mentioned your history with suicidal ideation and your work with psychedelics. So can you talk a little bit about what’s your history with psychedelics and what have they done for you personally?

Shawn Wells (05:14)

Yeah, that’s a great question. think most of my life, ⁓ I had an impression of psychedelics that they were drugs and those were for drug ease. ⁓ And those were for people that were trying to escape reality ⁓ and really just had bad consequences from all the things that I had been hearing. You know, I’d heard about LSD, ⁓ you know, that you could have trips.

Shawn Wells (05:43)

like years later and they could come back around and like there was all this stuff that I had heard that I had believed that I kind of put ⁓ things like mushrooms in the same category as cocaine and other substances. And these were things that for those reasons did not appeal to me. I didn’t understand them. And then I started hearing in my biohacking circles, maybe after 26,

Shawn Wells (06:12)

in there like, you know, the next couple of years, I was hearing ⁓ Tim Ferriss, Dave Asprey, Ben Greenfield. There was like a lot of names that were kicking around these ideas about at least microdosing. And that started opening my thoughts to some of these substances as they seem to be gaining cognitive function. They seem to be gaining more insights, reducing anxiety.

Shawn Wells (06:40)

improving performance. So I was becoming open to the idea because of biohacking, because of improving performance. Little did I know like this is what I truly needed ⁓ for a lot more than that. ⁓ And it was leading into COVID just prior 2019 that I was talking to a friend of mine, ⁓ Keith Norris, who had run the Paleo effects event and

Shawn Wells (07:11)

And he was telling me about psilocybin and said that I had to do an experience sometime. And he also had done many ayahuasca experiences and told me that was powerful as well. And there was an experience coming up with a number of celebrities in the biohacking space and friends of his. People that you’d, you know, probably about 20 people at this event, every which person you’d probably know.

Shawn Wells (07:41)

right off the top of your head. And I wanted to go. wanted to, if Keith was doing it, I wanted to try it. But at this time, I was driving myself into a very unsuccessful marriage. You know, I wanted to be separated, be divorced, get out of it. I was working 80 to 100 hours a week. I was overwhelmed.

Shawn Wells (08:10)

You could argue that I was probably close to suicide one way or another, either directly doing it or indirectly doing it through work.

Shawn Wells (08:22)

And I decided to take this journey, New Year’s Eve, going into 2020 just prior to the pandemic.

Shawn Wells (08:33)

And again, I was at this event ⁓ and there was, you know, 20 some other people there, all very famous. ⁓ And normally I would walk into a room and I would tell everyone why I’m important, why you should like me, why I’m of value. Because until that point, I believe that love was fleeting, love was conditional, that my worth was tied up into what I do.

Shawn Wells (09:02)

that I had no value as a human being, but only as a human doing.

Shawn Wells (09:08)

But actually going into this event, I felt so scared of all these other people that I decided to really lay low. ⁓ And meanwhile, I took probably the equivalent of about five and a half grams of mushrooms that night. So a you know, a hero’s dose, if you will. ⁓ And all these people that were obviously not taking that that much. ⁓

Shawn Wells (09:36)

came in and out of my circle. I was kind of laying in the cuddle puddle ⁓ and people like a time lapse in a movie were just coming in and out, in and out of my circle and like asking me if I needed anything, laying by me, caressing me, making sure I had food or something to drink, helping me to the bathroom, you know, just sitting with me, holding space for me. And the whole time I was thinking, why?

Shawn Wells (10:04)

Why would someone do this if they don’t know the value I bring and I’m essentially no one to them? That’s all I kept thinking until it finally hit me that I deserve love. I can have love, I can be loved, and I’m valuable as a human being, not just a human doing.

Shawn Wells (10:32)

And for me, that was a profound epiphany that shifted my heart, that shifted everything thereafter. And my life completely changed after that moment. You could have told me those things and I would have rationalized with you because cognitively that makes sense. Rationally, that makes sense to say, yeah, you deserve love. You should have love. You can be loved.

Shawn Wells (11:03)

That makes sense. But until you feel it in your heart, you anchor it in your heart, that’s when everything changed for me. And I would not be doing this podcast right now. I think I’d be dead in the ground had I not done that journey.

Sam Believ (11:19)

Well, I’m happy you did do this journey and you’re here with us and hopefully somebody who’s listening might find something in it for themselves as well. ⁓ And I know what mean with all those cliche phrases, as you know, love yourself and it means nothing, but then through psychedelics, you finally understand what are they talking about. ⁓ we host an average 50, 60 people a month and I…

Sam Believ (11:49)

see it over and over again, just these realizations of those basic and everything your grandma told you kind of things, but now you finally get them. So thank you for sharing your mushroom experience. I’m a big fan of mushrooms myself. ⁓ I know you’ve also worked with ayahuasca. So could you please share about your ayahuasca experience and also how did you prepare to that experience from the point of view of supplements?

Sam Believ (12:19)

because you are the ingredientologist, you are ⁓ the supplement. If you don’t know, nobody else would know. what…

Shawn Wells (12:28)

Yeah, so ⁓ again, great question on my ayahuasca experience, my facilitators that had done the experience with me on psilocybin were the ones that set up the experience in Peru. We went to a maloca there and it was a beautiful place in the mountains. ⁓ And man.

Shawn Wells (12:57)

We were with the Huni Kuin tribe who they were friends with. They did not facilitate this experience. They definitely left that to the indigenous people of the Amazon that they felt were rightly meant to conduct this. And it was beautiful because it was a mother who was the head of her tribe as well as her three children that were between the ages of 16 and 24, two boys and a daughter.

Shawn Wells (13:28)

And it was very, very powerful. You know, they had their headdresses and the paints and the outfits, and they did the dances and chants throughout the entire experience. We did four nights of ayahuasca. ⁓ The first night was an interesting experience because they microdosed us without telling us. We all thought…

Shawn Wells (13:57)

We were going to have this massive ayahuasca experience. Most of us had never done ayahuasca. And so we were all kind of looking around at each other because this goes on through the night. You kind of dose up maybe around eight or nine PM and you know, this goes on through the night. ⁓ And throughout the night we were, know, and you’re supposed to stay in your own lane, your own experience. You know, this is not one of the…

Shawn Wells (14:22)

types of experiences where you’re supposed to talk to each other, like maybe like a psilocybin sometimes is. ⁓ And we all, the next day were like, did anything happen for you? Like I didn’t really get much. And what’s really cool is I believe that set us all up for a great experience throughout because we got a small taste of the medicine in our body.

Shawn Wells (14:50)

We felt safe in this Maloka. We felt safe with the people that were in the Maloka, being both the facilitators, this tribe, as well as the other people that were there with us during this experience. ⁓ And it wasn’t overwhelming. I think to get a sense of the whole thing,

Shawn Wells (15:17)

before you actually dive in and feel comfortable, like set and setting, right? I believe that was super smart. ⁓ And they didn’t tell us they were going to do that, but that’s what they did. And then the next night and the next three nights, essentially, we were fully dosed. And my first night that I was fully dosed, it was magical. It was like full on DMT, like laser light beams, like…

Shawn Wells (15:47)

Tron meets the Matrix or something with just these hyper bright colors. And I was actually holding myself in a hug for hours telling myself how strong I am, how beautiful I am, how much I love myself, giving myself the things that I had been seeking my entire life. That validation, that pride that I wanted to hear from.

Shawn Wells (16:15)

parents from elders, from teachers, from mentors, I gave that to myself. And that was unbelievable. My heart was bursting. And while I’d like to say every night is like that on Ayahuasca, and I was thinking maybe I like hacked this whole thing and every night would just be beautiful laser light beams and lots of love.

Shawn Wells (16:41)

⁓ it wasn’t, ⁓ that’s what it was for me that first night. The second night, ⁓ was a little bit more difficult and there was, there was some grind in there. There was some uncomfortability in there. ⁓ And you know, that’s what this medicine does. You know, it kind of gives you what you need. And in all the ways, like I needed to love myself, hug myself, give myself.

Shawn Wells (17:11)

that validation and that pride that I never felt like I got externally. So that was powerful. But for me to struggle and grind and the message that was coming through was I was seeing like this imagery that was like uncomfortable and kind of gross almost for hours. It reminded me of like a ⁓ nine inch nails video or something. It was just…

Shawn Wells (17:40)

uncomfortable ⁓ and it finally came through the message finally came through if you don’t like what you’re seeing turn the channel like you have control like how how often have you not used your voice not used your feet if you don’t like it speak up if you don’t like it leave if you don’t like it turn the channel if you don’t like it go do something else

Shawn Wells (18:09)

Don’t sit there with it in something that you don’t like. In most of my life, I had sat with things that I don’t like or been in places I didn’t want to be or around people I didn’t truly love. And that was a powerful message I needed as well. So, know, Aya is just an incredible experience overall. And I believe that like the more you get depleted, the less there is of ego.

Shawn Wells (18:39)

and default mode network is truly shut down, turned off, the more exhausted you are. That’s why usually people have their biggest breakthroughs on the second, third, fourth day when they’re just wiped. When you don’t have any more resistance. When you can’t rationalize your way through something. When your ego doesn’t have all of its constructs anymore and it’s just wiped away.

Shawn Wells (19:08)

You don’t have the energy to resist and you have to succumb, you have to surrender and you just fall into parasympathetic nervous system with default mode network shut down, with ego essentially ⁓ off. And then this message can come through and the healing and the learning can come through and that’s when your most powerful lessons will be learned when you’re in that state and it’s no different than

Shawn Wells (19:38)

You know, I’ve done Dr. Joe Dispenza when they do the pineal gland meditation, like they wake you up at, you know, 2 30 a.m. and you do this 3 a.m. meditation, same reason. ⁓ Tony Robbins will make you go till 1 a.m. and then wake you back up for a 5 a.m. thing. And all of it’s the same reason. It’s so that you don’t have the resistance. You don’t have the constructs when you’re tired, when you’re wiped.

Shawn Wells (20:08)

That’s when you can get reprogrammed. That’s when you can make your biggest changes. So that’s done for a reason. And again, very,

Sam Believ (20:18)

Yeah, lack of sleep in itself can be psychedelic. It’s interesting.

Shawn Wells (20:22)

Yeah.

Shawn Wells (20:25)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (20:27)

Yeah, it’s interesting you described something very similar to what we do here at ⁓ Lawara, which is ⁓ the ayahuasca retreat I run with my wife. And we give people first 24 hours without ayahuasca just to get to know each other, get comfortable, just so they can let go of that ego. And then one week is normally four ceremonies and the lids start to pop off second or third night as they get worn down.

Sam Believ (20:55)

And also kind of simultaneously as they get more comfortable with the space. ⁓ There’s definitely a process to it. Like a lot of people want to come and just do one ayahuasca ceremony. so just, it’s just not, it’s not the same. need, you need that process, but then when you’ve been through it, then you can come back for less and the connection sort of have already been established. So what, what supplementation and what preparation did you do personally?

Sam Believ (21:22)

before attending ayahuasca retreat and what would you recommend to people because many people ask us about supplements ⁓ and honestly it’s just really hard to find like good information from somebody who really understands the ⁓ biochemistry of it all.

Shawn Wells (21:37)

Yeah. And that goes back to this idea of, know you wanted to touch on this too, is like the dieta, which is diet, but it means more than that. It really means everything that you are consuming. And that can be not only what you’re consuming fluid and food wise, but what you’re consuming through your ears, through your eyes, through your nose, through your brain. Like what are you consuming and how are you preparing yourself?

Shawn Wells (22:08)

When I went into this experience, I did none of that. I really didn’t change anything. I can say with my research though, one of the parts that I believe is the most profound is the idea ⁓ of doing fasting. And I believe that fasting prior to a psychedelic experience has a real purpose.

Shawn Wells (22:36)

beyond just not consuming things and kind of clearing or cleaning your body. All that makes sense. But what we know is that fasting will increase ketones, endogenous, meaning in the body levels of ketones. Ketones are a fuel for the brain. They’re also neuroprotectant. They’re also anti-inflammatory to the brain. And so what we see is we see brain energy improve.

Shawn Wells (23:07)

because it has a secondary fuel besides glucose, we see the inflammation in the brain go down, especially in areas that may have had traumatic brain injury, concussions, insults from prior physical or mental damage.

Shawn Wells (23:24)

And then we also see neuroplasticity enhanced via ketones. So I believe like this idea of doing fasting for thousands of years prior to a big psychedelic experience had an important role in actually protecting and healing the brain and having synergy with the psychedelics themselves.

Shawn Wells (23:51)

And I believe that ketones is actually one of the big scientific reasons for that.

Sam Believ (23:59)

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. ⁓ what about coffee? For example, ⁓ many dietas recommend quitting coffee, caffeine. I know you know a lot about caffeine. So talk to us about that and maybe mention a little bit about what is paroxanthine.

Shawn Wells (24:18)

Yeah, so that’s great. Great lead in there. ⁓ So caffeine, ⁓ about two thirds of the population or so, is a slow metabolizer of caffeine, meaning that CYP1A2 gene, the cytochrome P450 pathway with the liver that involves metabolizing caffeine, we metabolize it poorly. And I am one of those people and I get more side effects than benefits from caffeine.

Shawn Wells (24:48)

Caffeine in your body converts to three different things once you consume it. It converts the theobromine, theophiline, or paraxanthine. And what we know about caffeine is, especially for slow metabolizers, it’s fairly toxic. It actually has a lot of these side effects. And when you break apart fast in slow metabolizers, this is why we see in studies with caffeine.

Shawn Wells (25:16)

Some people say, like you live longer when you consume caffeine. But one, those studies typically are with fast metabolizers. And two, it’s with people that are having coffee, which has a confounding factor in it that chlorogenic acid and trigonoline are both compounds that are antioxidant and polyphenols that are potently anti-aging.

Shawn Wells (25:45)

And so that’s having a kind of like confounding effect with that caffeine, really negating some of the negative impact of caffeine. But when we look at caffeine studies where there are more negative effects, it’s because those studies tend to be without those polyphenols or antioxidants and they’re with slow metabolizers. And so when we break apart fast and slow metabolizers, we see very different results.

Shawn Wells (26:16)

And again, like I’m saying, as a slow metabolizer, it can take me days to clear caffeine from my system. It can be a 10 and a half hour half-life, whereas for a fast metabolizer, it could be a one and a half hour half-life. So about a ⁓ 7X difference, very different. So paroxanthine, you can skip the side effects and the bio-individuality of caffeine. You can skip all the side effects of theophylline and go straight to

Shawn Wells (26:46)

paraxanthine where we see very little bio individuality, where we see a very short and regular half-life of about three hours. ⁓ And we see a ton of positive effects where it actually enhances neuroplasticity via BDNF, it decreases beta amyloid plaque, it increases nitric oxide to the brain.

Shawn Wells (27:11)

increases glutathione and catalase, decreases oxidative stress. It’s really miraculous, increases dopamine, serotonin, acetylcholine, basically all the ways that we know that the brain ages. Parazanthine, for all intents and purposes, is reversing that. So this is where it’s profoundly neuroprotective, kind of like ketones. So, you know, I believe that parazanthine would have good synergy

Shawn Wells (27:41)

around these experiences. Certainly, maybe on the other end, when you’re feeling low, depleted, it might be smart to enhance blood flow, enhance neuroplasticity, these neurotransmitters being repleted, enhance the reduction in oxidative stress via glutathione and catalase, and so that you’re bringing the brain back online after an experience.

Sam Believ (28:12)

So how does one consume paraxanthine? Is there any products available or not yet?

Shawn Wells (28:13)

So.

Shawn Wells (28:20)

There’s several on Amazon or on Vitamin Shop or GNC or any places that you might go. There’s pre-workouts, there’s capsules that are just pure paroxanthine, there’s nootropic products that have paroxanthine plus some other ingredients that I’d recommend, things like alpha GPC, which is great for acetylcholine repletion and

Shawn Wells (28:47)

really helping the health of your brain lipids, ⁓ the phospholipids that make up the majority of the brain. ⁓ Tyrosine is going to help replete dopamine and bring that back online. So I’m a big fan of that. Hooperzine A is going to help with the repletion of acetylcholine because it prevents its breakdown. This is kind of like, ⁓ I like taking Kana post-

Shawn Wells (29:17)

psychedelic experience because it’s a natural SSRI and it’s going to help bring ⁓ serotonin back online in a very similar way because it’s preventing the breakdown of serotonin by blocking it at the receptor. you know, essentially a natural SSRI. So if you were to do like 5-HTP, ⁓ you know, things like saffron,

Shawn Wells (29:47)

and where to take Kana, like that could help with serotonin. And things like acetyl-L-carnitine, huperzine-A, paraxanthine, alpha-GPC, those are all gonna help with bringing acetylcholine back online. And then like I said, with dopamine, paraxanthine, tyrosine, L-DOPA, those would be great. And then things that are going to enhance neuroplasticity.

Shawn Wells (30:16)

are going to be excellent as well because you want to keep your brain in a neuroplastic state as you’re trying to make changes. Like one of the reasons, well two reasons, maybe three reasons that are really important with a psychedelic experience in you making change. One ⁓ is you being in a parasympathetic nervous system state when typically,

Shawn Wells (30:45)

you’re more in a vigilant sympathetic nervous system state. So this is where I recommend taking things that are anxiolytic, meaning reducing anxiety, things that are adaptogenic, meaning helping your body be resilient. So these would be things on the anxiolytic side. It would be things like magnolia bark, which contains hanukkah, L-theanine, which you can find from green tea, which are relaxing.

Shawn Wells (31:15)

And then the adaptogens are going to be things like a number of the mushrooms, ⁓ things like rhodiola and ashwagandha. And then ⁓ on the side of neuroplasticity, which is my number two factor, that’s important. Your brain is literally able to kind of rewrite itself because it’s neuroplastic. It’s in a state that…

Shawn Wells (31:42)

we can make changes readily. When our neuroplasticity is low, when BDNF is low, brain-derived neurotrophic factor, we’re in a state of low cognitive resilience. We stay in loops, and this is actually what’s seen with depression. Depression, you have very low BDNF. People that are highly mentally resilient have very high BDNF. So what we’re looking to do is maintain this high BDNF of our psychedelic experience.

Shawn Wells (32:12)

by increasing our neuroplasticity. And one of the ways to do that would be some of these agents that increase that. So one of which I mentioned is paraxanthine. And then many of the polyphenols are helping with neuroplasticity. So things like resveratrol, terastilbene, quercetin, chlorogenic acid, vicetin, apigenin. But one of my favorites,

Shawn Wells (32:40)

that seems to have the most profound effect is something called 7-8-dihydroxyflavone. And this is one that you can’t get that widely on the market. I know you can get it from Neutropix Depot, ⁓ but it’s not something that you can get widely on the market as of now. It’s pretty new. And then lastly, so keeping your body in parasympathetic post-journey,

Shawn Wells (33:10)

keeping neuroplasticity up. And then again, repletion of those neurotransmitters is going to be important. And so that’s what I was mentioning with the acetylcholine, the dopamine, the serotonin, bringing those back online, because when we’re in a psychedelic space, all of those are elevated. All the neurotransmitters come up. And depression, by the way, the whole serotonin theory has been disproven and is highly flawed in two meta-analyses.

Shawn Wells (33:39)

in, I believe it was 2017 and 2022, there was two very conclusive meta-analyses that showed that they potentially have more harm than good and very little benefit. And that’s because the serotonin theory of depression is very flawed. When we look at depression, ⁓ all the neurotransmitters are turned down. And again, neuroplasticity is turned down. And this would make sense

Sam Believ (33:55)

because this year.

Shawn Wells (34:09)

because our body, our physiology wants us to feel less when we’re traumatized. It wants us to not see colors as bright, not to have as many things come in, not to have as much change coming in, not to sense things on as deep of a level. You basically become numb and that’s done for a reason, to protect you. Now long-term, that is not very protective.

Shawn Wells (34:38)

Short-term it is it may give you time to deal with some of these things especially if that trauma is ongoing and for many people that trauma is ongoing and They need to leave that trauma. That’s one of the problems with doing a journey is Some people go right back to the trauma

Shawn Wells (35:01)

And that’s a really bad situation and that’s where a facilitator is important and you having safety in your life is important, not just where you’re being facilitated, but where you’re going back to post facilitation. That’s really important as well. So those are all important. Bringing those neurotransmitters back online, keeping yourself neuroplastic and then reducing anxiety.

Shawn Wells (35:28)

and staying in a parasympathetic state, that’s going to allow for your nervous system to make changes. You’re going to be more able to have that effect on the ego and constructs, like keeping that lowered ⁓ versus where you typically are when you’re more in sympathetic nervous system, you’re not going to readily make changes.

Sam Believ (35:56)

Thank you, that’s all great explanation. ⁓ One last question about the paroxanthine because it seems interesting to me. I kind of suspect I’m the bad metabolizer, but I, you know, as we record, I’m here in Colombia, right in the middle of the coffee area. I can see from my window a coffee farm. So ⁓ I think coffee is the psychological thing as well. It’s this hot brew you have in the morning, you’re holding your hand. ⁓

Sam Believ (36:25)

⁓ Is there is there a way to maybe get I’m giving you a product idea ⁓ Get make a some decaf coffee With some paracetamol in it. So it’s kind of what mimic Is it does it already exist?

Shawn Wells (36:36)

It exists. It exists. Yeah, it’s called, there’s a product called Rarebird. ⁓ Yeah, no, it’s called Rarebird. And you can get it, I believe on Amazon as well. That does have parisanthine. But one of what I do is it’s actually kind of a low level of parisanthine. It’s only 60 milligrams a cup. And I prefer about 200 to 300 milligrams.

Sam Believ (36:42)

somebody that happens to me so often. have a good idea but it’s already exists.

Shawn Wells (37:05)

So what I do personally is I just use a decaf coffee. I kind of bulletproof it with some MCTs, some butter or heavy cream. I often add collagen, maybe cacao, ⁓ and then maybe even some adaptogens like mushrooms, some powdered mushrooms I might add to it. I know that’s a lot in your coffee, but…

Shawn Wells (37:34)

then I might just have, I know, capsule of paroxanthine with it instead of ⁓ trying to worry about, you know, having the paroxanthine in the coffee.

Sam Believ (37:46)

Interesting. ⁓ Speaking of coffee, you mentioned anti-aging effects of it and just, I know you talk a lot about longevity and you mentioned biohacking as well. ⁓ I, interestingly enough, I was learning about psychedelics through biohacking podcasts as well, like Dave Asprey, and then I was listening to Tim Ferriss and all those people you mentioned. So it’s a kind of, let’s say a very ancient form of biohacking, but ⁓

Shawn Wells (37:55)

Mm-hmm.

Shawn Wells (38:15)

Mm.

Sam Believ (38:16)

A lot of time I see biohackers ⁓ or people that focus on longevity, they… ⁓ What’s the name of this guy? He’s like really pale and tries to live to 300 years old. ⁓ Yeah, Brian Johnson. ⁓ has this perfect structure of this is the supplement I take after this and this and that. But in reality,

Shawn Wells (38:30)

Brian Johnson.

Sam Believ (38:44)

I think it’s pretty stressful for you to be so controlling of your life. it’s like, what, what in your opinion is the, the role of mental health in, in, ⁓ in biohacking and longevity?

Shawn Wells (38:57)

This is a great great great point and one that I’ve brought up very often in my book again the the energy formula I talk about ⁓ The blue zones ⁓ and you know, there’s people there that are living easily past a hundred super centenarians That are smoking that are having wine that are not doing any peptides that are not doing any injections that are not doing any you know PRP and

Shawn Wells (39:25)

and stem cells and ⁓ IV fluids and whatever. They’re not doing any of this stuff. They’re not doing any of the supplements I’m doing. You know they’re doing? They’re having good companionship, deep friendships, deep family relationships. They have purpose in their life. They slow down. They prepare their own food and that food is very healthy. They have three to four hour dinners at night.

Shawn Wells (39:54)

When they drink their wine, and this is one of the reasons that I think alcohol is very confounding too, is Americans drink alcohol to get drunk and we’re out at bars and there’s loud music and they’re screaming and, you know, all these things. Whereas when I was in Sardinia, Italy, one of the Blue Zones, they’re drinking wine, they’re having a glass of wine over three hours, enjoyed with a nice meal and good friends.

Shawn Wells (40:23)

and they’re relaxing and life is slowing down and they’re grateful for their lives. So that’s called psychosomatic anchors around alcohol. Now every time they taste that red wine, they’re gonna think about slowing down, about being nurtured, about friendship. When we’re drinking alcohol in America, we’re thinking about anxiety and hooking up and am I safe? Am I gonna puke? How much money does this cost?

Shawn Wells (40:52)

How do I get back home? Can I drive? You know, it’s a very different thing with alcohol, but you know, going back to the point you’re making with Brian Johnson, I think there’s a lot of glitz and glamour around the magic pill, the magic shot, the magic whatever, this kind of whatever the biohack or device is. And while some of these things can help,

Shawn Wells (41:22)

I believe the framework needs to be built on a healthy base. That healthy base needs to be more like that Sardinian person. You need to love yourself like I was talking about earlier. You need to have a healthy group of people around you that support you, that are a network that you can fall back on, that you feel safe around. You need to have healthy food going in your body. You need to get great sleep.

Shawn Wells (41:53)

And those don’t sound sexy. by the way, another one is intimacy and sex. The data around sex is mind blowing. Probably the two most profound things that I’ve seen are maybe three. Intimacy, you could argue, is like friendships or relationships. But having sex with a committed partner, incredible in terms of the immune system, longevity.

Shawn Wells (42:23)

Health span, risk of diseases, ⁓ depression. You go across the board. These numbers are massive, massive difference if you’re having sex a few times a week with a committed partner. If you have these deeper relationships and friendships around you, massive. A Harvard study showed that

Shawn Wells (42:51)

That was the number one predictor of longevity was quality relationships. And so like these things are profound. And then lastly, sleep. This is one of like, these are simple things, but we deprive ourselves of sleep. And I’m telling you, your health drops off precipitously at seven hours or less. I didn’t say five, I didn’t say six, I said seven hours or less. Your brain becomes

Shawn Wells (43:21)

insulin resistant type 3 diabetes. It’s literally giving your brain temporary Alzheimer’s and diabetes and that can be long term. All of all diseases, well the risk for a heart attack, the risk for diabetes, the risk for nearly all diseases, weight gain, obesity are all going up dramatically when you don’t get enough sleep.

Shawn Wells (43:50)

And so these are easy. So if you’re one of these people like I was before I had done my journey, where I was grinding, where I was working 100 hours a week, where I was sleeping four hours a night, where I was in ultra vigilant states of sympathetic nervous system, where I didn’t have friendships around me. I didn’t trust many people. I didn’t have a committed relationship with like deep intimacy and sex.

Shawn Wells (44:21)

and I was doing all the bio hacks. Bio hacks were keeping me alive. They weren’t anti-aging. They weren’t improving my health span. They were keeping me alive. So what is most important is that your mindset is healthy, that the people around you are fostering your growth, that you are seeking out things in your life that light you up and give you energy.

Shawn Wells (44:48)

Those are the things that now you can add in the PRP or stem cells or V cells. Now you can add in the EBO2 and blue light, red light, all these different things. And I talk about all of them in my book, the supplement stacks. Cool, all of those are great ⁓ after you have that proper foundation.

Sam Believ (45:13)

Here’s what I’m hearing. ⁓ Have a glass of wine with your wife and then have sex and then go to sleep and don’t wake up for at least eight hours. That’s what you should all guys do that are listening. ⁓ You mentioned companionship, right? The importance of it in Blue Zones. what we see here at the retreat is how deprived people are from company. Like as a society, you said,

Shawn Wells (45:26)

Yeah, 100%.

Sam Believ (45:43)

the way we’re drinking alcohol is kind of wrong. And also I think the way we have our relationships, we’re sort of missing that aspect of tribe. And a lot of time, as I like to say, half of the healing comes from ayahuasca and the half comes from the group dynamic. When people start sharing openly in the word circles, we kind of create that culture here to retreat. And then they start ⁓ opening up and being vulnerable. And then obviously ayahuasca and they go through this experience together and they start connecting.

Sam Believ (46:14)

It’s amazing, like people form friendships for many years sometimes. ⁓ we’re missing it so much. ⁓ What do you think about that?

Shawn Wells (46:25)

there’s no deeper bonds that I’ve seen than the people I’ve done journeys with. I mean, ⁓ here’s the thing, like you can have people that you’ve known your entire life that don’t know you on the level that someone may learn you across a few days in a journey situation where you’ve made yourself truly vulnerable. Like raw scene.

Shawn Wells (46:53)

where your shadow is present, stuff that you haven’t let anyone see, even in your own family, even in your closest relationships, even your husband or your wife, your kids, your mother, your father, your brothers, your sisters have not seen this part of you. And so when you witness others going through this transformation, being that vulnerable, being that raw, there’s nowhere else.

Shawn Wells (47:22)

but for you to lean in as well and to love. Because when you witness others being that raw and that vulnerable and desiring change, now it’s possible for you. This goes back to the idea of Roger Bannister in the four minute mile. It was thought to be impossible. And then when he broke it, tons of people broke it. Because now what was impossible is possible.

Shawn Wells (47:52)

When you witness others, it’s now possible in your brain. And the second it’s possible, everything changes.

Sam Believ (48:02)

Thank you, Sean. Those are beautiful words. On that note, let’s wrap it up. So tell us again, please. ⁓ Maybe any last comments and then where can people find you and your work?

Shawn Wells (48:18)

Yeah, mean, last comments are, you know, going back to my book and this idea like the energy formula, seek things that give you energy that light you up. If I was to tell you right now, ⁓ the easiest advice is make a list of the things, the music, the movies, the friends, the hobbies, the jobs, the places that give you energy.

Shawn Wells (48:47)

and then make a list of the things that take that energy away. And start seeking out and enriching your life with the things that give you energy. It sounds so simple, but I guarantee 99.9 % of people listening right now have not done that list. And I guarantee there’s a lot of stuff in your life that you’re seeking out right now that’s someone else’s energy and not yours.

Shawn Wells (49:16)

So that is an important step, I believe, into gaining freedom and to gaining happiness. ⁓ And lastly, where to find me is ⁓ Seanwells.com, S-H-A-W-N-W-E-L-L-S. My book is at energyformula.com. You can find me on social media at Seanwells, S-H-A-W-N-W-E-L-L-S. I have a lot of free information on

Shawn Wells (49:45)

supplements, mindset, psychedelics, nutrition, biohacking, all that good stuff. So yeah, thank you for having me on.

Sam Believ (49:54)

Thank you, Sean, it was a pleasure. Guys, you’re listening to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, we do the hosts and belief, and I will see you in the next episode.

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast host Sam Believ has a conversation with Mark Bodner.

Mark was a head of facilitation at LaWayra and has accumulated a wealth of knowledge while working here. Mark is Brown University graduate and a Zen Practicionaire. 

We touch upon subjects of facilitating Ayahuasca retreats, zen Buddhism and Ayahuasca, how it feels being punched in the ceremony, doing hundred ceremonies in one year, bringing your parents to the Ayahuasca retreat and more.

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to 

http://www.lawayra.com

Transcript

Mark Bodner: You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast.com though, one of the best ways to work with Ayahuasca, in my opinion, is to understand that Ayahuasca is an incredibly powerful tool for healing. It’s the reason why people come here, right? If it wasn’t, no one would travel across the world to come take this medicine.

It tastes brutal. It makes you puke. All of that stuff people have put up with for thousands of years because it’s such a powerful medicine. And so being able to just trust that is going to work, that you have entered into, that you have the privilege to enter into this incredibly ancient healing tradition that has been carried forward by immense labor for generation after generation, and that just by working with the medicine there’s very little really you have to do.

It’s actually pretty convenient. A lot of people, myself, highly included. Come in with this sort of Western mentality of productivity of perfectionism, and we think there’s something we need to do with ayahuasca that we need to just have it all now. Boom boom. And we’re gonna make progress.

Sam Believ: This episode is sponsored by Laira Ayahuasca Retreat. At Laira, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity, Laira, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you. Hi guys, and welcome to Ayahuasca podcasts. As always with you, the host and believe to Damn joined by Mark Bolder. Mark is a Brown University graduate.

He is a slack lion aficionado. You might have seen him on some of our Instagram videos performing his stunts. Mark. Balances really greatly between monastics and work and plant medicine work. I think he’s been a great facilitator here. So before he leaves, we have decided to sit down and have this conversation to collect some of his observations and learnings.

Because here at working at Ayahuasca Retreat is second time machine when it comes to collecting wisdom and knowledge. So Mark was the chief facilitator at LA Wire for one year. We talk about how it feels being punched in a ceremony. Talk about ayahuasca and Zen Buddhism. We talk about facilitation shamanism bringing your parents to drink ayahuasca.

We talk about what happens when you do hundred ceremonies in one year. We talk about projection, regression, and transference and so much more. You’ll enjoy this episode. Mark, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me, Sam, Chris to be here. Mark tells. How did you end up at Lare at the first place and how did you, how did the path happen?

How did you end up becoming a, not just a facilitator, but chief facilitator?

Mark Bodner: Good question. This is a challenging interview ’cause I feel like my time at La Wire has been a little bit like that light tunnel when you go I forget what it’s called in Star Wars when it’s like they go light speed. And I feel as if I’ve just come outta that.

I’m like, whoa. I like what happened there. So I’m trying to organize everything and put it into a story. There’s a great zen story. I look my Zen stories. A an ancient master asked one of his students something along the lines of, what can you say about life before you were born? Something like that.

And kind of in the classic ancient way he paused and I think he thought about it for two or three years before he gave his answer. And his answer was a painting of a rice cake. Can’t satisfy. That kind of comes to mind for thinking about hell I got here. Like I can walk through all the life events that brought me here, but ultimately as we exist in the ayahuasca space a little bit more, it feels as if there’s some sort of puppet string.

And giving an answer doesn’t capture that, but for my kind of human conscious, free will perspective I like to joke with people when they ask, oh, like, why did you first end up at a monastery? I was like, oh, just a great life with no suffering and thought I might as well add a deep spiritual path to it.

The joke being that like most people, I came to zen to ayahuasca through a pretty robust period of suffering in my life to anyone who’s been here and heard my story, it’s, they’ve heard it before. But I’ve had a lifelong relationship with depression. And I think I, I remember first thinking about suicide in like seventh grade.

That just went in waves throughout my life, but reached a real pit towards the end of my time in college when I was at this Ivy League University, getting straight A’s, doing everything right by social standards. And yet was just in this deep pit of self-loathing, of hopelessness, of suicidal ideation and just isolation.

And it, it took a while to grow and mature. But that the chasm between how I was feeling and how the world was telling me I was doing woke me up to there’s more going on here. And that I’m a very curious person, that question mark of what is going on with both living a good life, right?

If I’m doing everything right according to social standards and I’m feeling so, so miserable, there’s some disconnect here. So from the external perspective, how do I go about living a good life? And then from the internal perspective, I could, once I got some space from that depression, I could see that my mind was creating the reality I was living in.

And you can take that on a sort of mystical and spiritual level, but just from a sort of psychological perspective, I was living in the world, but it was totally colored by my pain and suffering and kind of navel gazing with this slide Ting of negativity. That’s right.

Sam Believ: First mark’s Mark’s story many times.

So I know it by now.

Mark Bodner: This that was I would say what I would describe my time in high school as I think I say like an emotional gray with a ting of negativity this time was just all negativity. This like a tsunami of negativity. But yeah so the question was, what the fuck is going on with consciousness in the mind?

If it can make the world a terrible place in which I wanna kill myself, and if it can be this joyous place that I’ve experienced in other times. And so that kind of set me on this path of looking deeper into consciousness and into. How do I live a good, intentional, connected life? Part of that, as you mentioned, as I mentioned, brought me to Zen practice, which has been a huge cornerstone of my kind of exploration of these questions.

And then I started exploring plant medicine more robustly too. Anyone who works with plant medicines knows that it’s one of its cornerstones is just what is going on with consciousness? What is this thing that we’re all experiencing as the water we swim in? So that, that was kinda the starting point.

And then just a whole I think when people say Ayahuasca called them, for me that call was just a path of teeny little things that eventually culminated in arriving here. I was traveling with my girlfriend. We I was reading a book at the time and it was the first book I had ever read that mentioned Ayahuasca and Ayahuasca retreats.

A month later we hit a crashing point and we sat down. Sunburns lonely. Annoyed. Frustrated. And I was like we have two weeks before our next flight. What’s the one thing that we wanna be doing right now with our free time and the money that we’ve saved up? Ayahuasca was my answer because of that book.

And then Lara was the one place that had availability and the time that we had. We booked our flights, we arrived here, and then three ceremonies I noticed I was certain that I was gonna come back. And so there’s the middle picture, which is my kind of personal history. There’s the localized picture of just the serendipity of teeny little things pulling me towards this place.

And I think there’s a really zoomed out picture of how the hell should I know.

Sam Believ: So one, your Ayahuasca experience here, maybe you want to come back and volunteer ’cause you began as a volunteer, just yeah.

Mark Bodner: Again, I think it, it happened on multiple levels for me first. I just had an incredibly profound personal experience with the medicine.

I was like a month or two outta the monastery and so I had felt as if I just had this massive spiritual experience. I’d done a good bit of, a good bit of psychedelics. I had free based DMT mushrooms, acid, you, whatever you want. And so I came in with this hubris or ego of yeah yeah, like ayahuasca is supposed to be powerful, but, I’ve done a lot of stuff.

I I’m in the now and really clearly I was here for a week for ceremonies after my third night ceremony. I was like I had to leave the ceremony space ’cause I was really buzzing. It was back down when we were down down there. I was on this beautiful hill next to my favorite bench overlooking the valley.

It was just like, what the hell did I just drink? What is that? My mind was blown. It’s the classic ayahuasca ceremony experience. And then my next ceremony, I went five times as deep. It was crazy. So there’s a personal experience of just Ayahuasca is a pretty strong magnet, but.

More than that. Honestly, I think was the communal experience and just seeing all of these people from all over the world coming to this one place to yes, to, work on themselves and to heal and to try and live a better life and to try and answer these questions that I was asking but more so to do it in community and to step vulnerably into the challenge of being vulnerable and of going through this path.

And I was just super inspired. I think I know you talk about this a lot we both do. Most people I think in the modern western world are highly isolated. And so the community aspect was a huge element of what drew me to LA Wire. And then the, I would say the biggest part was stepping back and having just come from the monastery, I was had seen the backend of a lot of the work that happened.

And so I had the strongest connection with the team that was working here. You, the old head of facilitation, Jared. Seeing the amount of love and hard work that went into facilitating this. It didn’t just happen meaninglessly. I was really inspired by the, that act of service and by the love and effort and care and hard work that went into facilitating the experience that I had myself.

And then there was the special low wire stuff of it felt it wasn’t like $7,000 to be here. It felt as if there was a sort of heart and soul to this place. And just felt, it felt exciting and it felt like the most meaningful way I could spend the next few months of my life.

Sam Believ: And obviously after that you decided to become you showed promise.

So you got a promotion. So after doing your volunteering you obviously showed promise. You’re a pretty smart guy, I must admit. I would admit it on camera. And you decided to come stay in stay in the. Climb your ranks to the chief facilitator position. Explain to people who haven’t been to the Wire while you were here.

What is that? What does that role mean?

Mark Bodner: If you do come to the Wire, you can just think of anytime anyone’s talking to you. Just imagine that being me. Sam has a great line I don’t know if you’ve said in the podcast before, but running an Ayahuasca retreat is like running what is it?

A hospital, a restaurant, and a hotel all at the same time, A hotel restaurant, and a senate psych ward. Yes. I haven’t thought it as good of a summary for me. Essentially what my job was was everything involving the patients, all of the patients experience here from just the kind of hospitality element of living and being comfortable and feeling taken care of, to, if you are deep in a journey, you have no idea where you are.

You have no idea who you are, you have no idea what time is you’re afraid, you’re paranoid guiding that person. So that’s kinda the spectrum in between would be giving a lot of speeches. I’m pretty long-winded as you can hear from the podcast now. I’d give I think five hours speeches to try and orient people to both ayahuasca the plant medicine and also the way that we do it here.

Both at LA Wire and within the Inga tradition, which is a indigenous tradition we work within. I would be the one that was facilitating word circles and so word circles are a central element in our opinion of working with ayahuasca and of building that community container. So both giving people feedback because Ayahuasca is such a challenging, confusing thing.

As someone who’s seen a lot of people moving through it, I would be giving the feedback and trying to help contextualize it, do some integration work down to Rae. I was translating for Fernando. And so I, I learned a huge amount from just hearing what he had to say to the patients organizing notes to pass on to him about safety for taking Iowa.

Pretty much just everything involved with serving Ayahuasca to people safely and in a way that will help ’em grow. And just for me, the sort of umbrella that, that spans the spectrum from hospitality, making sure someone has a towel when they need it to guiding someone through, probably the most intense spiritual experience I’ve had in their entire life was building this container.

Container is a super common word that we use to describe what happens at La Wire, but when people come here, they’re entering into a communal container that is the set and will determine, or is the setting and will determine the set for their expansive ayahuasca. And so just giving all of the love and care I could give to people to make them feel safe and ready to step into that vulnerability.

Sam Believ: You cannot do it. Managing ceremony team. Yep. And volunteers. Yep. And also creating the operating procedures and just like paperwork for them. Yep. For the team to use. So as you can see, it’s a challenging job. I’ve done it myself. And I as you’re leaving now, I’m picking up a lot of slack and many other team members are gonna take other parts, so hopefully and eventually will get another capable individual like yourself.

Maybe you’re listening, you never know, but you have to volunteer first. It is a difficult job, but obviously what is what are the benefits? What have you learned by doing this work? How do you. Compare yourself on physical, spiritual, psychological level as opposed to when you came now like in this year, how would, has there been a, has there been a learning curve?

Mark Bodner: Has there been an improvement? This is when the sort of light tunnel feeling starts coming on of looking back at the year and trying to move through it. I guess another way of saying is it’s a little bit like as Sam said the challenge of this job is it feels like being in, in a whitewater river.

You’re just like being bounced around trying to keep your head above water and Yeah. And yeah, you’re like learning to, to swim, but then you get outta the rivet and you’re like, whoa. Like, how could I describe that? The first time I think we said this joke to ourself was after my first month here volunteering my fir, the first ever group that I volunteered as a facilitator with was.

I think the second most or top three most difficult groups

Sam Believ: ever from second most challenging group ever. Still to this day. Yeah. Nothing came close. Not,

Mark Bodner: yeah, just and that was my first ever week. And we’ve had what, like over 50 groups? 12 times 3 36. For me personally, but then for in the wire’s, broad history, probably this times three.

Yeah. So close to hunger, really saying something. And it was the first group that I ever worked with. We said what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger or it cripples you. What doesn’t kill you makes you a cripple.

Sam Believ: Yeah.

Mark Bodner: Yeah. So far I haven’t been crippled. And so I think that goes to show everything I’ve experienced here has made me stronger.

It’s or I haven’t been crippled as, as far as I can tell the Abbott the monastery is at, had a few catchphrases that you would say all the time and. You would hear it and I would think that I understood it. And then I’m noticing that just every single month I realized that I didn’t understand it and now understand it a little bit more.

And one of his catchphrases was zen practices being in the center of your rolling ball. And so life and circumstances are always gonna be rolling you around, but can you stay in the center of it? And I think a word that comes to mind when I think of that is unflappable. And I feel as if I’ve maybe just one step, but I’ve taken a step towards being a little bit less flappable by the conditions of life and the winds of change towards being more in the center of my rolling ball.

And it’s very challenging because I’ve, one of the things I’ve seen from my work here and from Ayahuasca, and I think the way that life works is you never finish. If you’re looking for a challenge, life is the best place to start. Like it just is constantly evolving with some new thing. On that path towards just being centered, being a little bit less emotionally volatile or reactive.

I think that’s the main change I can see in myself. And also I think in combination with that is the sort of strength and capacity I have to move through this path. That comes with going through that process of entering the rolling ball. Importantly though, I think like when I heard that at the monastery, I was just like, it, part of what I didn’t understand is it felt like something that just comes about or you think about it hard enough and then you’re in this entry rolling ball, throwing out a bunch of zen stuff here.

But another visual that I really like, it’s part of a zen coan. It says the patch, robed monk, having passed through the forest of thorns is like a snowflake in an oven. The imagery. There is this monk with a very old, dirty robe with a bunch of cat patches all over it. And he is just passed through this force of thorns which have been ripping at him and cutting his skin and tearing at his cloak.

And once he has passed through that force of stuff of thorns, he’s like a snowflake and oven. He’s just constantly resetting, being born and new evaporating into nothing. And I think a big part of the work here has been, it’s been a bit of a force of thorns, in ways of, there have been a lot of challenges, there’s been a lot of difficulties, but that is what is actually required, in my opinion, to move forward on the spiritual path.

Pain is one of the best teachers,

Sam Believ: As mark likes quoting Zen cos I do quote like sayings that I picked up Eastern European or when I was working on ships. But there is a saying that white ship, black work. So like a white festival, let’s say cruise ship, the and the black works.

So if you see a white ship and you think wow, this would be great to work on that ship. It’s so beautiful. And but in reality, and I worked on the cruise ship myself once it is a completely true saying that Seafer say, because if if you see a white ship and it’s nicely polished, that means somebody has been polishing it, it means that working there is even more challenging than working on the rusty ship.

Yeah. So what happens here at Lo, I believe is a lot of people as you probably know, are very happy with their experience here. And not only it’s affordable, but the facilities at the very high level. Everything is really well organized and everything flows and it builds a lot of trust. And this perfection, so to speak, comes at the cost.

And the cost is taken by the team. And of course largely so by, by whoever is, I had the facilit facilitation because you need to collect all of that, and you’re the damper that dampens the good and the bad. Yeah. Making it stable. In that process of learning and observing processes of close to a thousand people in your year here, what patterns have you noticed, and most importantly, what would you tell based on that observation, what is the right way to do ayahuasca for a long-term healing?

I think the

Mark Bodner: first pattern that is tied into what is the right way to do ayahuasca for long-term healing is that it is really challenging for people to be patient with their healing process, to understand that pace. Is not something that is just put on us to frustrate us and to make us practice patients, but is actually an essential element of the healing journey.

And with that, it is tied this sort of like the power of ayahuasca in this, how hard it can be to be humble in the face of that, particularly when you haven’t taken it. And so time and time again, people show up understandably so because of the way that ayahuasca has been framed in non-indigenous circles.

But they show up wanting to boom, just be teleported right to where they want to go and finish their healing path and just be better forever. Which is a very human and understandable urge. But it’s just I’ve seen hundreds and hundreds of people show up with that desire and just not have it fulfilled because it’s, I just don’t think it’s how life works.

Unfortunately. You can’t just go to a foreign country, take a ma magic medicine and have be healed from the human condition. So one of the patterns is just. Instant gratification, which it’s intensified by the narrative we have about ayahuasca. It’s intensified by the sort of modern psychology that can get its dopamine hit at a moment’s notice.

But not understanding that this path is, truly it’s, it sounds trite to say, but it is a path and there is no just teleporting to the end. And one of the biggest things I’ve personally learned honestly in the past month is I’ve stepped back from my role and taken a little bit more time to focus on my own healing.

Is you can do, like I’ve drank, I think in the past 16 months, I’ve drank like 130 ayahuasca ceremonies. I’ve seen hundreds and hundreds of people come through here, go through this very intense healing process. I’ve been the person that’s been guiding them and still I can see that I’ve just chipped away.

At my sort of emotional core or made a few steps forward amidst the steps back, I have not by any stretch of the imagination arrived. And as always, my sort of intellectual understanding of this path that I’m on is far beyond my sort of core. So one of the patterns is impatience. It’s really challenging to be patient with ayahuasca.

And so one of the best ways to work with Ayahuasca, in my opinion, is to understand that ayahuasca is an incredibly powerful tool for healing it. Like it’s the reason why people come here, right? If it wasn’t, no one would travel across the world to come take this medicine. It tastes brutal. It makes you puke.

All of that stuff people have put up with for thousands of years because it’s such a powerful medicine. Being able to just trust that is going to work, that you have entered into, that you have the privilege to enter into this incredibly ancient healing tradition that has been carried forward by immense labor for generation after generation.

And that just by working with the medicine there’s very little really you have to do. It’s actually pretty convenient. A lot of people, myself, highly included, come in with this sort of western mentality of productivity of perfectionism, and we think there’s something we need to do with ayahuasca that we need to just have it all now boom.

And we’re gonna make progress. Understanding that ayahuasca is just working in itself and that change needs to happen over time. There’s myriad analogies, but if you try and build a tower in two weeks, then it’s gonna topple over because you haven’t spent time solidifying the foundation.

And so patience and trust in the medicine will carry you super far. That should be paired, in my opinion, with just gratitude for the actual ability to drink Ayahuasca. Some anthropologist says that when the Spaniards came to South America for the first time, they gave him the gold and hid the ayahuasca, which I think something you’ve said, even if you just think of it temporarily, right?

Like depending on your anthropological study, ayahuasca as a medicinal spiritual tradition has been around for 4,000 and 8,000 years, making it one of the most, if not the most ancient spiritual traditions in the entire world of human existence. Pretty much. I would personally say Ayahuasca has only been like widely accessible to people not from indigenous communities for 20 years.

Max like 60, depending on how you wanna define widely. So if you look at this massive timeline in which Ayahuasca has existed in the, just how privileged people like us are to be alive in a time in the world where we’re actually able to take this medicine. Gratitude just for being able to do that I think carries people really far.

And so that’s number one. The pattern of desire of impatience, of hearing that ayahuasca is 10 years of therapy, which it is, but requires other steps to fall into place. And so that’s number one.

Sam Believ: Ever once 10 years of therapy, but they don’t want the work required to receive 10 years of therapy.

It’s imagine going through 10 years of therapy, you’ll, the process will be as intense Yeah. As having 10 years of therapy in one week. So it’s it’s an accelerant, like a lot of, there will be a lot of work that will need to be done somewhere.

Mark Bodner: The, I also like to say that if the tenure of therapy experience with ayahuasca is like the desired outcome we call working with ayahuasca process because a huge amount of, like insignificant or seemingly minor prerequisite steps and fall in place for that.

Ceremony when you get 10 years of therapy. And so like sometimes what you need are like two ceremonies of just puking and pershing and shaking and sweating. Sometimes you need a third ceremony that’s absolutely brutal and super challenging to arrive at that fourth ceremony. And so that to get to that place requires the patience and pace.

That’s number one. The second pattern that I’ve seen is a pretty fundamental cornerstone of maybe the human psychology in general or just a lot of people is just hating pain and discomfort. This is one of the final points that I give in my integration speech is I think we as humans on a very fundamental, if you’re Freudian on the ID level or just the subconscious or the animal part of us hates.

Pain. We hate discomfort, we hate fear, boredom, sadness, all of these things just on a deep level, we don’t want to feel, and we will do a lot of things to avoid it. I personally think this is a root or a significant contributing factor to drug addictions, to addictions of all sort, be it gambling, porn, sex, alcohol, all sorts of things.

I think it’s why we live in a culture where we have dedicated a huge amount of resources to developing technology that allows us to constantly turn ourselves off from feelings of boredom or pain or sadness. Just pick up my phone and scroll. I am as much a part of this as anyone else. So I think that’s kinda the starting point of there is something deep in us that doesn’t want to feel some underlying pain or fear or sadness, and we are really adept at doing that in ways that we don’t notice.

We had one patient here who, he was actually here for two months. He was a challenging, challenging guy. And after being here for two months, and I think he drank like 20 ceremonies, he was saying mark, like I, I agree with so much of what you say and really inspiring thoughts, but it’s I don’t I don’t think you’re right.

Like I actually really seek out feeling pain. Like I, I try to feel my pain and he had been one of the most avoidant patients I had worked with. And so like our mind is so sneaky at making us think that we are doing these things, but on a deep animal level, we’re getting away from it. And I’ve also seen as a pattern combined with that, if we don’t feel our pain, it will destroy us.

I think that is what brings people to a lot of people, or at least the people who are mainly looking for relief from really exhausting physical or mental pain and illness. Is that when we, our pain doesn’t just go away. We can’t run away from it. It needs to be felt, it needs to be processed, it needs to be let go.

And if it’s not processed by the mind, by the emotions, it gets stored into the body until it wreaks havoc on our immune system, on our muscles on all sorts of things. And so those two are wrapped up for me. On the one hand, so much drives us to escape the suffering that exists as being alive. It’s just a part of life.

For myself, as I mentioned I was so struggling to just confront how sad and lonely I was and the facts that I didn’t feel as if I could reach out for help. Just I could not just be with that feeling that I almost killed myself. Like I, I I hated my pain so much that I was like, I’ll just fucking die instead of feeling this.

The only way that I’ve gotten outta that place has been by confronting it, by accepting it, by finding what’s on the other side, which is a huge amount of wonder and beauty and mystery. But I’ve, as we say, you need to go through to get out. So that’s number two is pain. And it’s, I think our aversion to it is what traps us in it.

And one of the beauties of bios is that it helps us actually go towards it. And if it’s being done in a sort of traditional way with a team that’s experienced with a shaman that’s highly trained, then you’re always, we call, we say titration. It’s like a chemistry term for slowly introducing something so that the, as far as I understand the reaction as a whole isn’t overwhelmed by the introduction of a substance.

As long as you’re being titrated with ayahuasca, you’re going to be taken into what you need to see be that the pain that is protecting you from your healing core or that core. Is love and beauty and joy and connection to everything you’ll be brought towards that. But one of the most important things in my opinion about taking ayahuasca in this indigenous space is that it’s, that process is happening, as I said, with the first thing at the right pace.

Because if you’re just like blasted in, then you can start feeling things that you’ve been running away from for your entire life. Feel overwhelmed, freak out, be traumatized, never wanna work with ayahuasca again, and then remove yourself from the ability to take ayahuasca. That’s super, super rare, I think with ayahuasca in general, and particularly here because we do this work in a responsible way, but is a risk.

And so number two recommendation from my number two pattern would be make sure that the place you’re going understands ayahuasca as a medicine that is bringing us to the sort of core of healing, which is understanding our relationship with suffering. Connecting with the love and joy and beauty that oftentimes that suffering is keeping us away from a place that understands that’s what Ayahuasca does.

And so it’s not just some drug to give you some crazy experience blasts you off and, touch God’s finger. That’s part of it. But it needs to be done in a responsible way. And if you go somewhere that doesn’t know what they’re doing, there can be legitimate harm that comes from that. Assess summer two.

The third main pattern that just came to mind when you asked this I think another really fundamental element of the human existence is just wanting to connect with people. Really it’s remarkable from our perspective as staff to see we have three groups coming through here every single month almost.

Without fail. When the group steps off the bus, they’re at like a very low emotional, energetic, vibrational, whatever you want to, whatever word you want to use, state. They’re closed off. They’re like, who’s this person? It’s competitive. It’s very reserved. It’s a group of strangers, of course.

Like that’s just how we are. There are four day groups even they experience it. But mainly the week groups after seven days, simply with the labor that we as a team do to build this container and encourage people to be vulnerable and authentic. And we have a major assist from Ayahuasca as well.

People have created these relationships that are on a true and I do think real level, deeper than a lot of the friendships that they’ve had for years because it is founded in connection, in vulnerability and authenticity and in the desire to be real with someone. And I think seeing that happen time and time again with every single group, like I can’t think of a single group in which some form of deep opening a connection hasn’t happened.

Seeing that over and over again makes me think that, that’s a really fundamental element of being human, is the desire to be in connection both socially with the people around us, but also I think with nature and the world around us. Something Fernando or shaman always says is, we live in a world where we are being encouraged to think of progress as concrete, jungles, big cities.

And that’s good. There is progress in that, but what would the world be without real, fresh virgin jungles? If we didn’t have jungles, forests, trees, we wouldn’t have air. And so I think also another element is just deeper than human connections are desired to be in union and in harmony with the natural world.

And it’s honestly, it’s been really impactful and beautiful for me to see that as a fundamental element of the human existence. And so I guess. To wrap it up on, on this question. Long-winded answer, my third recommendation for doing ayahuasca in a safe, genuine, healing way for long-term.

Long-term healing would be making sure that you are ready to do your part of stepping into that connection. Can you just be confident in yourself and ready to share that with the world, being authentic, being vulnerable, stepping back, and being honest about what is the stuff that you’ve been avoiding, what’s the things that you might need to work on or to let go of, to take that forward?

And doing that in community. This is a communal medicine. I feel really strongly about that. And so doing it in a place that encouraged you to do that communally, rather than take your cup, go lie your mattress, stay in a hammock for the entire day, resting and then come back to ceremony. I think it needs to be done with people around you.

Sam Believ: Thank you, mark. A great answer. I’ll be a long one. Mark is a man of not a few words you’ve had towards the long-winded. You had many words. So to sum it up, imagine a group of unhappy people generally slightly low in vibration, coming over very impatient, wanting a magic pill that transforms them in one day.

We are, and Mark specifically, not for the last month, but generally for a year the focal point of all this frustration where he gets blamed for the reason that they’re not getting what they want on a day, number one, because he keeps saying patience. So obviously it’s your fault and I know that is not your favorite part of this work.

Having, being the focal point of, let’s say if you’re the person that enforces the rules, all the negativity gets projected on you. So talk to us about projection regression. Counter transference and all those fancy terms.

Mark Bodner: Yeah we’ve joked that another job title could just be punching bag. My last answer, I’ll be long-winded, was a helpful transition into this question, so well done.

I think the way I understand that I’m not, I have a good amount of experience with, psychology and therapeutic paradigms, but I’m not formally trained, so I’ll do my best. One of my understandings of how transference works or projection more specifically is we have our internal world of feeling and when we can’t just see it and take responsibility for it as our own, we look for reasons around us to project it onto.

There’s another podcast that I like listening to that was interviewing someone about chronic pain and they’re talking about how on a biological level there is a difference between. Hurt and harm. So hurt is the actual physical sensation of pain. If you’re feeling pain, that is that is hurt harm is if that pain is communicating real damage to your physical system in any way, right?

So is it, is your tendon actually exploding or do you just have kind of pain in your knees? These two things are often interrelated, but sometimes there is difference or distance between them. But importantly they said, when we hurt, we look for harm. And so that’s the cornerstone of how I understand the projection that happens here is people come in and they have stored up a lot of suffering through their life and Ayahuasca wants to get in there and start, needing it like dough to try and get it softer, get some air in it and release it.

But a lot of times people have to feel that and as they feel it, it’s really hard to just. Feel it and not have a reason. This is something I’ve been working really hard on myself is when I’m feeling something, I don’t need to explain why I’m feeling it. I could just feel that thing. And so as that comes up, particularly when you’re in the suggestible state of Ayahuasca, you are looking for reasons to be feeling it.

So one of my favorite stories that, that articulates this is we had a patient who is here and he was entering into his process and he was kinda like thrashing around, moaning a little bit. Not to the point that it was being disruptive, but usually when that starts happening, I’ll go over to that person, jingle my beads, just to let them know that I’m there if they need anyone to support them.

’cause that’s the transition point where you might be reaching a freak out. So I’m standing there, I’m dingling my beads, all of a sudden he is like sits straight up in his bed, rips off his eye match. He’s like a what’s up man? Like, how’s it going? He’s I’m feeling like the most love that I’ve ever felt in my entire life.

And I just wish everyone could feel this. This is the most incredible feeling I was. Awesome. That’s so great. Like another person feeling this beautiful thing that we hope they do when we’re working with Ayahuasca. So I was like, that’s great. Enjoy man. Start getting up to a, he is hold on.

It’s one thing, one thing. And I was like what’s going on? I just, I need to be closer to the music. The music was over there. He was over here and he wanted to be like really close to really feel it. He was like, ah, but I don’t know. I’m scared to ask. I don’t know if that’s okay. I was like, oh, totally man.

Let’s do it. He starts walking over, I’m like, you want your match? He’s yeah. Bring my match. I’m like, cool. Pick up his match. Let’s bring him over there. Sit him down in front of the stage. He’s no. Like I wanna be against the wall. Cool. Move him over to the wall, plop him down there.

He’s settled in. He is feeling happy. I’m like, so great. Another person having a nice Aya was experience go about taking care of the other people. 10 minutes pass and I look back over and he’s just you can almost see steam coming out of his ears. Just red face, big frown, gr mess. I forgot some people aren’t watching this.

Oh, this is new. This is different. And so I go over, I’m like, Hey man. How’s it going? What’s going on? You feel okay? He’s mark, I do not understand why you put me here. I was not being disruptive and I should not be here. I’m not comfortable here, and I want to go back. And he, for five minutes, he was just furious with me.

He literally said like that he felt like he was in timeout. And this is like hyperbole of, I think what happens on a lot more subtle levels of projection. So like this dude had literally specifically asked and chosen to be in that place. But then his process shifted and he started feeling bad. And so his mind found a way to explain the bad feeling he was having.

This patient in particular had shared in Word Circle about how his father had left him for six years, and then he came back to the family. Was like an authoritarian, really a disciplinarian, very mean to him. And I think that is where the medicine was bringing him. So he felt this beautiful thing.

He connected with this, what I call a soft inner core. We protect with all of our defense mechanisms. He’d been brought to that. But I think in feeling that love, he was confronted with the vulnerability of feeling that, and the capacity for pain. And so his defense mechanisms came back in and he started feeling pain, and then he was looking for a reason for that.

I, as the head of facilitation, the guy that does all the talking, the figurehead, the one that enforced the rules, I was the recipient of that pain. He projected it onto me. He projected his father figure the authoritarian onto me. So that’s just, I’ve come to the point where I just understand that is the role I play.

It’s not me. I think I, I actually do a very good job of this work, but that is part of the work. And that if I’m constantly fighting and trying to convince the person that I’m not them or that I’m not their projection it’s just very exhausting for me. And so for the facilitator role, just accepting that.

That is part of the job and part of this healing process is the natural sort of flashing that happens as people go through the healing. Has been the very protracted journey I’ve been going on to understand projection, at least.

Sam Believ: A great example of projection happened in very last retreat. Not gonna name many names, but a lady was going through a process where she felt pent up anger towards men because she felt that they took from her and they disregarded her and they disrespected her.

And even though men at Lare are extremely loving, everyone from Shama shaman to facilitators, she needed to project that on us to process it. It’s like it’s just a necessary thing. So for a day or two, she went into this mode where she was really upset with all the men and then as she, together with the medicine.

So it’s a part of her process and it’s together with the medicine. She was able to vent it out. She came to conclusion that because of how great the men are here, that there are great men around. And she was basically healed from that thing she was carrying around. But the facilitation work is difficult because you have to understand exactly what is happening to her not to get offended.

Yeah. To keep having that container for her. Yeah. To go through that process, guide her through it, knowing that it will resolve and not take it personally because the more you take it personally, that’s

Mark Bodner: really challenging. Yeah. And I think that’s if we’re getting into the weeds of facilitation, I think that skill of not taking it personally is probably the most, one of the more advanced skills.

I think because it’s so challenging, this kind of gets at countertransference, which essentially like what tra transference is different but similar to projection. So we’ll just use them interchangeably right now. Counter transfer. Sam is a patient. Counter transference is pretty much anything I feel about him.

Oftentimes though, it’s emphasized by, if he’s being really mean to me because his father was mean to him, and he needs to take out that anger on me, my counter transference would probably be stronger of, Sam’s a really bad dude, I don’t like him. Maybe I’m not gonna help him or give him the care and attention that other people receive because he is being so mean to me.

That is a super like human response and really hard to step back from, not get sucked into. And for me, I think like understanding truly like this is the healing process and this is a role that I fill that people project onto it’s not about me. And then also for the staff that do this work, having our own community is essential.

So like Sam has been a massive support for me through all of this. The punching bag stuff that I’ve been getting, of having someone to process, to release, to vent to. So that I can bring myself back to the center to work with the patient and not just get sucked into this sort of childlike dynamic of he should, he said she said, or she slapped first.

So it’s okay that I slap

Sam Believ: I’ve been able to support you because I’ve been punched for Yeah figuratively, a literal letter and you’ve also been punched in your experience here. We can talk about it later, but it’s a very interesting paradox and I had this Jesus moment where, yeah, I was in the ceremony and obviously I’ve created this space to help people feel better and obviously we charge reasonably and there’s there’s so much love in it.

And then to get slapped in the face by one of the patients and not being able to slap him back and having to be, in your piece. So that’s like a very physical representation of this emotional things we’re talking about. And then just to have him slap me in another cheek, 10 minutes later.

Yeah. I’m not say where there was, it was that moment. So it just kinda goes to show how complex this work is. Like people think, lemme just start now. Oscar treat, I’ll just get somewhere. Oscar you pouring a cup. And we are just basically scratching a surface when it comes to just the sort of psychological side of things.

We’re not even talking about the actual spiritual playing goal. Yeah. And thousands of years tradition that has been required. So it is a very humbling notion. Yeah. So let’s talk about being punched and broken and scratched and tell us about some of those experiences and what have it taught you?

Mark Bodner: Just a, keep talking, a disclaimer or kind of a. To set the stage. Horror stories are of course, way more fun to tell than like normal ones, but this sort of stuff that we’re talking about is super rare. Like it, I worked with, I wanna say I worked with between 700, 800 patients and I can only think of maybe five times in which someone got by one.

And so it’s not super common. But my first month after I finished my volunteering term and I came back and I was formally stepping into the head of facilitation role, we do, if you’re not familiar with the structure at Lara, we do 18 day retreat cycles for staffs. We’re working for 18 days, and within that we do 10 ceremonies.

It was the first ceremony of the entire month, first ceremony of my of my tenure as head of facilitation. And I made the mistake of saying to a coworker like, oh, first, first ceremony of the month, nothing’s gonna happen tonight. It’s it’s always chill, cut to another patient. Very another classic moment.

He he took his first cup, normal size, and then we got a very small second. He like flagged me down and grabbed me super agitated about having gotten a small cup. He’s oh, like I got such a small cup. What did I do wrong? Did, does the shaman think I’m weak or like that? I can’t do something?

Oh, I should have lied to him. And then 30 minutes later he was like really frantically dancing on his mattress. Fernando was like, keep an eye on him. I was like, already there. All of a sudden he pop shoots up like a bullet. And this is in the old ceremony space where it had a charm to it, but it was like a sardine can people were packed in and he had jumped up and was in this very thin alleyway between the mashes, like dancing like crazy, like frenetically thrashing all around.

Could have kicked someone in the face. So I rush over to him like, Hey man let’s go outside. If you wanna dance, let’s go to the dance floor. So you’re not endangering anyways, he’s I’m conscious. I’m like, oh, sick breaks away from me and sprints towards the bathroom. Again, in the old ceremony space, there was a, like a single room bathroom.

And because someone could have a deep process in the bathroom we ask people to not lock the door. And so the door is unlocked and people don’t enter because they know someone’s in there if the door’s closed. And so we bust into the bathroom. Someone is actively pooping, like ayahuasca poop, not something to be interrupted.

They start trying to like, push the door clo close. I’m like, oh shoot. Like now we really gotta restrain him, rush over, grab him by the waist. He like rips free, goes over to where Fernando is it’s like a two step journey. And honestly, like to his credit, it was a beautiful kick. Like he looks like a textbook like martial arts roundhouse going for Fernando’s Chin.

Don’t know why he didn’t remember, but Fernando is sitting here playing his flute. He sees the kit coming, he. Gets about this far back, like a few inches I run over, I grab him by the waist. If one of those two things hadn’t happened, he would’ve just connected straight to Fernan. Just knock the shaman out.

So I grab him by the waist. The second I grab him, he rips around and just clocks me straight in the jaw. We wrap him up. And then we go, and of course like the idea of being restrained while you’re on Ayahuasca, of course sounds incredibly unpleasant. Reminder number one, super rare. And number two, it is truly the only thing you can do to protect someone from hurting themselves or others.

This guy was actually like pretty in control of this faculties. Most people are just like thrashing around when they need to be restrained. And if you’re in that state, oftentimes you’re actually not conscious of your physical world. And so there isn’t that same sensation of being trapped, right?

Like it’s not claustrophobic. Your body is really just like getting energy out. And so within restraints, you’re able to do that while getting out. So there’s that, but. We restrained him. Eventually he came back down, we hugged in the morning. It was all good. But that was another great introduction to this work on the first month.

One of the things I learned from that, that I was thinking about as you were talking about being slapped is I think at the end of the day, sometimes Saint Lee behavior is super easy and straightforward. Like we were joking a few months later, we had a new volunteer and I told this story and she was like, what did you do when he punched you?

I was like, the only thing I could do is just wrap him up and bring him over. And she was like, you didn’t wanna punch him back. I was like, can you, Ima, I think you said this can you imagine a was retreat where you’re tripping and you sit up and the facilitator just went like on the patient.

It’s it was just like the, when you are in that mode of caring for people it’s very straightforward. It’s what can I do to take care of this person? And I think there is a saintliness. Everyone, which is just going beyond your sort of personal reaction and dealing with whatever’s going on.

Sam Believ: That’s how parenting feels. Yeah, I bet. Like your children, they like make you, they hurt you so much, but you have to keep, what are you gonna do? Yeah. Oh, it’s oh, you just broke my new phone. That’s it. What can you do? You just keep loving him. Yeah. So yeah, it is a really challenging work.

I do believe that I don’t know much about karma, but you must have gained like life’s left and worth of karmic points doing that work. And hopefully me too. Not that it’s the goal, but there definitely is. There are aspects to it that are very difficult because you’re used to, we’re used to doing good things and receiving gratitude in return, and one, the pattern is breaking.

Yeah. Broken. And you’re like. You’re doing your best and you’re helping so much, and in return you get this projection stuff or physical violence on your, that can be really hard. However, I do believe that this work and the word circles and all the wisdom and learning through people’s processes, it’s like a super accelerator.

It’s a, one year of being a chief facilitator I believe is much more valuable than one year in the university. Yeah, you mentioned couple times old ceremony space. So for those of you watching us on video, if you’re not, check out, find us on YouTube at La Wire YouTube channel. We’re sitting in this beautiful Maloca.

Maloca is a medicine house, a very traditional indigenous style building with a palm tree leaf roof and made from teak wood and compound the wood with it’s surrounded by nature and every direction. This has been built about eight months ago when Mark first joined. We used to do it in the area.

Now for those of you familiar with a wire where we have our eating slash coworking area. So what have you observed what change have you observed after we started doing ceremonies in Malca and just generally what you, what do you think about my designer skills? It’s,

Mark Bodner: The changes are night and day.

It’s on a level that would’ve been impossible for me to predict. I just wouldn’t have thought it was possible. I can confidently say that the most challenging ceremony we’ve had here, and by challenging from a staff perspective, I mean like people freaking out, like needing hands-on assistance, needing to be taken to a private area so they don’t not disrupt in the group, excuse me, running around trying to get away, stuff like that.

That’s a challenging ceremony for us. The most challenging ceremony we’ve had in the molo. Is would be an average one in the old ceremony space. And this gets, I think there’s the, I think there’s the obvious element, and I do think there’s also the sort of more mystical, spiritual level to it.

But from a sort of basic like consensus reality level, this space just makes you feel held. Like the old space was I think, psychologically challenging because you would, that’s where you do word circle, and so you’d be talking all the time. That’s where you would eat your meals. And so you’d be eating there.

That’s where you’d be hanging out with people playing games. And then you’re also brought into ceremony and everyone has to be in an ayahuasca ceremony. It’s just like really confusing. Whereas here, this is understood to be an exclusively ceremonial sacred space. And it has, if you ever look around it, it just has a sort of gravitas to it that makes you feel.

Safe and held and is a place that allows you to let go of control in a way that is calming rather than feeling as if control has been seized from you and you have no idea what’s happening. Yeah, the Moloka is a medicine house. It is the container that holds ceremony, and this one does it remarkably well.

Your designing skills are excellent, Sam. Thank you for, we actually, we’ve had someone who is a pretty experienced ayahuasca veteran, and she said that we have the best bathroom she’s ever seen. For ayahuasca, which is, if you’ve drank Ayahuasca, you understand how important that is. We have eight bathrooms.

Eight bathrooms.

Sam Believ: It got little bide or 20 people. Yeah. That means like no traffic jams ever luxury. So you mentioned that you have more than nine ceremonies in one year. Like that. That’s a scary number for most people. They’re like, how are you still alive? What do you, what have you? Observed by having that batch medicine.

And what is the main lesson

Mark Bodner: number one? It’s also on ayahuasca podcast.com is an interview with Rick a South African showman. And he and Sam talk about integration. And one of the things I’ve heard him say is that integration is like a modern concept and isn’t really a word that’s used in indigenous communities because the idea of integration is combining two separate things.

And so for most people, that’s ceremony and normal life. I don’t want this to come across, am I saying integration isn’t important? Integration is absolutely essential to this work being done, but it is a new thing in a place where you come to retreat and then you need to bring that retreat experience back to life.

For me, I’m definitely like a traditionalist, like I like, like doing things in the way. The old ancients did. And so I’ve really appreciated having the opportunity to just be immersed in ayahuasca bath, like just a teabag seeping in, in the water of ayahuasca. From that, one of the main things I’ve noticed is there is no ceremony and not ceremony with the sort of western, somewhat dualistic mindset it’s very easy to think of ayahuasca and the work that happens with it as being I come to ceremony, I take my cup ceremony lasts for about six hours.

I stop feeling the psychedelic load. I go back to my room and then it’s over. With so much experience with ayahuasca over the year, I can see that from a spiritual level, ayahuasca’s constantly functioning. It’s just the volume is turned up to the point that we can perceive it more. And so I’ll find I’ll come into ceremony with an intention.

Nothing will happen. And then the next day I’ll be confronted with some unique challenge that is exactly in line with the intention that I came in. And that’s pretty fascinating to me. But also that like the, as I was talking about, I give speeches every month to people that come here, I’m giving advice on how to work with ayahuasca.

Some of the key points it’s a lot more in depth than this, but the key points are essentially flow, trust, surrender, opening listening and courage. Those are the core tenets. And I find that ayahuasca ceremonies are not something different from life. Of course, you’re practicing life in ceremony.

And so as this kind of binary between ayahuasca, not ayahuasca, between integration, breaking down is just living in the world with ayahuasca. I see that I’m always in ceremony. And that’s been a there’s a really nice tie in for that with me, with Zen where Zen talks about. It’s 24 7 practice.

And so a lot of people think zen practice is when you’re meditating, but meditation is just you can think of as the ayahuasca ceremony. But once you are off the mat, you’re doing the same thing, same practice. It’s 24 7. And life is constantly teaching within that. So that’s one of the main things I’ve found from that.

Sam Believ: What’s your favorite ever ceremony? Can you recall favorite such a hard or some like very memorable vision or, crazy psychedelic story?

Mark Bodner: Crazy psychedelic story definitely would be my day ceremony. So over a year and a half now. But when I was here as a patient, it was my fourth ceremony.

And when we drink a day ceremony, we start at 7:00 AM Most people feel as if ceremony has meaningfully ended around like 10 30, 11 30. You’re still tripping and you’re in the afterglow, but you’re not like deep. I didn’t come back to understanding not even who, but what I was like that I was a human being living form until like three 30.

I remember at i at three 30, I got into the shower and like feeling water on my body. I remembered. I was like, oh, okay. Like I’m a human. The way that ceremony went was I mean it’s, I could, again, this is another thing I could talk about for three days, but took two very full cups and didn’t purge at all.

Connected with ayahuasca and the way at that time that I was in communication with the medicine was through stomach convulsions. And so I would ask a question. My stomach would eMule like that in a very perceptibly answering way. Sounds super wacky, but when you experience it, it makes sense. I was like talking with Ayahuasca, asking it questions, making jokes, and then all of a sudden it was like, like I was not.

Psychedelically blasted, but I could just feel on a very deep level, I think similar to your most recent ceremony, just the absolute perfection and oneness of all existence, but in a way that I was still functional. Like a lot of times people experience that and they’re like on their mat. I was totally fine, but it was just everything was perfect.

It was like this beautiful high point spiritually, and then pretty much the rest of the day was just a ever furthering descent into pain, confusion, and fear. It started with lots and lots of crying, which felt really good. Like just this massive purge like sobbing really nice.

And then it kept going and it got scary and I was, this is me going beyond my pace. For sure I was not a patient person when I was here as a pa as a patient, to the point that I was like across, laid out on my bed, like flexing all of my muscles in a way that I’ve never done in all of the sports I’ve done.

Eventually some guides came and they calmed me down, calm an ayahuasca experience. I was seeing how every single moment I had ever experienced had led me to this moment. In a way that’s like obvious if you think about it, but when you experience it as reality, it’s it was terrifyingly blatant that like time had just flowed to this moment.

Again, these things are fundamentally ineffable. Time totally disappeared. At first I thought I had been there for four days and four nights, and I was like, it’s so nice that they’re still taking care of me. Like what? Generous people. And then time disappeared. I I felt as if everyone else was a God and I was the last God to be born because I had been so selfish and like egocentric.

I felt like I was the most powerful God because I was the last God being born. I thought Yosemite Valley was right outside of the door and that I could, if I never chose spike ball, the beach game, I thought I was about to play spike ball. But they were like, no, you need to stay in bed. I was like, all right.

That’s probably a good idea. Eventually it was beautiful and profound and well beyond my capacity to understand, let alone articulate. Eventually where I was brought to was what I call nothing land, where there was absolute nothingness. If you think of not knowing and just make that the entire universe, you use this within, that’s where I was to the point where I came once I was coming out of that, and I could see, I could hear and perceive again.

I was here with my partner. It was like three 30, like really late. It was three at this point, really late. So she was really concerned for me, and she was laying next to me. I was able to speak again, and I was like, I’m really confused. What? Like I’m confused. And she was like, mark, you’re in Columbia.

You’ve taken ayahuasca and you’re going through your process. And in my head I was like, what the fuck is Columbia? And then 10 seconds will pass my back. I’m really confused. I was just stuck in this loop. It was really frightening. But at the same time, it was the most profound and intense and beautiful and mystifying experience I’ve had my entire life.

And so for me, I’ve come to the point where good and bad just doesn’t capture ayahuasca. It’s just a matter of intensity. And that was like the intensity of life just turned up to the point that I wanted to experience it. So it was absolutely stunning.

Sam Believ: In one year of facilitating, what have you learned about shamanism and what do you think about our shaman?

Mark Bodner: Number one thing I’ve learned about Shamanism is that it is incredibly complex and would take decades of intense study for anyone to practice. Let alone master. I think anyone that exists around ayahuasca long enough starts to tap into some shamanistic elements of reality.

And so there’s for me, honestly I grew up as an atheist and I, and identified as an atheist or agnostic until I was like, honestly, a couple of years ago. And so for me, number one was recognizing that shamanism is like a real craft. We often tell patients it looks like he just blows on the cup, makes some funny noises, hands you, your ayahuasca, and then chills in a hammock.

And it, you can be like, oh, that’s easy. I could do that. He is not doing anything. But no it’s, he is both exercising a skillset and that skillset is really complex. And so there are certain programs where I think you can go to Spain, study for three months and all of a sudden you’re a shaman, excuse me, which is the same for me as going to a summer camp and being like, I’m a doctor now.

So it’s really, it’s an art form. What do I think of Fernando? I think so I have only ever drank with Fernando. So I don’t have a great comparison point from a personal perspective, but I’ve worked with hundreds of people who have drank with other shamans and all of them are blown away by Fernando.

I’m sure Sam has mentioned this, but Fernando is sixth generates and sixth generation shaman. But working with Ayahuasca goes back a lot further than that. They take care of grow, harvest, cook, and serve all of their own medicine. He has been formally training as a shaman since he was seven years old and has been ordained as a shaman since he was 15 or 16.

I think. One of the stories that I think actually the best for me is we had a patient who. Drinks a lot of ayahuasca and is also a very kind of like orderly person. He had a spreadsheet where he would rank all the shamans he’d ever drank with on a 10 point scale across different elements.

And among all the shamans he’d ever drank with, I think Fernando is like top three. And so I, it’s been a huge privilege to be able to work as closely with him as I have. But I still have feel as if I’m anywhere close to what he’s able to do.

Sam Believ: Last question, mark. Why did you bring your father to drink Ayahuasca?

Mark Bodner: I’d be careful to say that everyone in the world should take ayahuasca, but I do believe that everyone in the world, a lot of people could do well to drink ayahuasca. Yeah. My dad and I have had a pretty challenging relationship throughout my life to the point of a few years ago. It was to the point it was a breaking point of something’s gotta change or we’re ever gonna be close in each other’s lives.

From that point, a lot has changed and we were able to get to the point where I really thought that it would both help him a lot personally, and I wanted to share this part of my life. This has been a huge part of of me and my path. And so I wanted to share that. But for him, he grew up with an abusive alcoholic, very manipulative father that wreaked havoc.

He was also very poor. He was a scholarship kid to a lot of private schools, and there was a huge amount of exclusion and bullying and all of that that came from that. And only recently as he realized that he is been played with PTSD for his entire life from all of those experiences he was always like, ah, but PTSD is for like people who have confronted IEDs in in Afghanistan and stuff like that.

So he didn’t feel like he could use that term, but that he truly has a clinical diagnosis of PTSD. And I knew for him that he just had a lot of stuff that he needed to. Feel and confront and let go of to be the person that he wanted. And ultimately it was, it came from a place of love and care. I love and care for my dad, and I wanted him to be happier and healthier.

And I knew for a fact that Ayahuasca would be a really powerful, profound tool for affecting that. So it was really important for me that he came and did, and he came and he had he said he had one of the best weeks of his entire life. And it was one of the, I would say, one of the special moments of my entire life to have him here.

So get your parents to do ayahuasca. It was really incredible.

Sam Believ: Yeah. My mom drank. I, Oscar my sister and my brother, my dad is the last one in your case, your mom used to have and your sisters.

Mark Bodner: Just before we wrap up, one of the things that Sam has said is when. Your family members came and drank ayahuasca.

If this project of like self-growth and healing was pushing a car, you felt as if a few more people were pushing the car with you. Yeah. And I can feel that

Sam Believ: lifting the intergenerational weight. Yeah. Together. So says our own. Mark, thank you for the podcast. We’ve been it for a long time. What, how do you feel, man?

You’re leaving no moral wire for you. Will you miss Ayahuasca? Will you miss Laro?

Mark Bodner: Will you miss Columbia? Yeah, absolutely. If you haven’t experienced any of the three things that for that Sam just mentioned, you should. Columbia is a paradise. I thought recently I was like, I just live somewhere where a lot of people come for vacation.

It’s perfect weather all year round. There’s food everywhere, just like falling from the trees. It’s warm. The people are really nice. It’s got a beautiful history and topography. Ayahuasca. It’s just, it’s pretty much the closest thing to magic that I think exists in the world. And so that’s pretty cool.

And LA Wire has been my home, my work, my community, my family, my church, my hospital. So I’m going to miss it profoundly. And I’m definitely hoping you always sort your

Sam Believ: gym pressure. My gym, your cigar alone. I could keep going.

Mark Bodner: But yeah, I, this is I made an indelible mark on my life.

Sam Believ: Why will miss you as well. Me too. That’s good. Thank you for the episode. Thank you for the good work. Mark has stepped in this position. He mostly self trains. I was too busy to train him because before he stepped into it, I was doing his job plus five more. So as since then, I’ve hired.

Five plus people to replace me. And I’m still very busy. So challenging, but beautiful. And just ayahuasca, man. Like whenever you feel struggling, you drink ayahuasca and it’s ah. Yeah. And you’re like, I can go some more. Yeah. So beautiful. So whenever you, whatever life happens, you always welcome back And guys, thank you for listening.

This has been a very special episode. And I’ll see you in the next one. Thanks everyone for listening. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you’d like to support us and psychedelic renaissance at large, please follow us and leave us a like, wherever it is you’re listening, share this episode with someone who will benefit from this information.

Nothing in this podcast is intended as medical advice, and it is for educational and entertainment purposes only. This episode is sponsored by a wire ayahuasca. At Laira, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity. Laira, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you.

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with neuroscientist and author James Cooke.

James shares his journey from a profound spiritual awakening as a teenager to studying neuroscience and exploring psychedelics as tools for consciousness and healing.

We touch upon topics such as:

00:17 – James’ spiritual awakening and scientific path

01:45 – How psychedelics sparked emotional healing and trauma work

03:40 – The unique perspective of a neuroscientist on Ayahuasca and DMT

05:46 – Entity encounters and their possible scientific explanations

11:58 – Sam’s experiment idea: enhanced reality and psychedelics

19:26 – Where thoughts originate: brain, consciousness, or antenna?

26:49 – How science and spirituality intersect

30:26 – James’ personal emotional healing with psychedelics

37:12 – Neuroplasticity and the long-term transformative effects of psychedelics

40:12 – Meditation vs psychedelics: mechanisms and outcomes

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats, go to http://www.lawayra.com.

Find more about James Cooke and his book The Dawn of Mind at http://www.jamescooke.info

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:02)

James, welcome to the show.

James (00:04)

Yeah, thank you for having me. It’s good to be here.

Sam Believ (00:07)

James, ⁓ tell me a little bit about yourself and what brought you to work with psychedelics.

James (00:17)

Yeah, so I am a neuroscientist, but I got interested in neuroscience because of a profound spiritual experience I had as a teenager, kind of spontaneous, what people typically call like an awakening. And yeah, it was a kind of dropping fully into the present moment and discovering what it is to exist without being identified with thoughts and the kind of profound wellbeing that’s associated with that. And so that led me

James (00:47)

being fascinated with his consciousness experience. ⁓ but my background leading up to that had been that I was raised Catholic and I really didn’t like the dogmatism of the kind of superstition and that kind of stuff. So it, pushed me in a kind of scientifically oriented direction. And the thing about the awakening was it felt like awakening to reality. didn’t feel like awakening to something supernatural. It felt like I’d been living with a kind of in this thought identified state that we all live in, ⁓ until we engage this terrain. And I,

James (01:15)

I’d been living through kind of interpretations, delusions of like how the world is. And then I’d woken up to kind of how it actually is. So that’s what led me to wanting to articulate this stuff from a scientific perspective to be like, this isn’t, this is very much real. These experiences. And so then I went to study neuroscience. And on the journey, I got interested in psychedelics because of people doing research on mystical experiences induced by things like psilocybin.

James (01:45)

And I found my own experience like that to be really transformative. And I wanted to be able to, I was excited by the possibility that other people could experience this, this too, this kind of shift in perspective to one instead of feeling separate and like you’re alienated in a universe that’s much bigger than you, instead of feeling that you are a manifestation of the unfolding of existence. And so I decided to try a high dose of psilocybin for myself to see if it was the same terrain, experientially.

James (02:14)

⁓ and I found it was very similar and, and kind of confirmed that, but then that experimentation unlocked basically the awakening I’d had was very much in consciousness and to do with identity and in the mind, that unlocked basically emotional stuff that I hadn’t been doing trauma healing work. I hadn’t been doing any of that stuff. ⁓ and I didn’t know it was there as all very repressed and the psychedelics really opened that up, which led me eventually to Ayahuasca and does a lot of beautiful healing work done there. So it took.

Sam Believ (02:41)

So, thank you.

James (02:43)

what was initially a kind of intellectual exploration into very much became very personal for me and very transformative. So I had like a five year period of doing psychedelics quite intensively, therapeutically, once I discovered that there was this healing to be done. And at the end of that phase, the things all kind of came together. And then I wrote this book about science and spirituality and consciousness. And so yeah, that’s what brings me to sitting here in front of you today.

Sam Believ (03:12)

Thank you for sharing. It’s interesting that you kind of described that you came to it from scientific point of view and the research and then it resulted in more of an emotional exploration. It’s interesting we tell people when they come to the retreat that ayahuasca will give you what you need, but it will rarely give you what you want. So ⁓ talk to us a little bit about your ayahuasca experiences. ⁓ You know, it’s common for me to hear.

James (03:32)

Great.

Sam Believ (03:40)

Many people describe their experiences that’s day to day, but not every day you hear ⁓ a neuroscientist talk about it. I’m sure your perspective is somewhat different because you deal with the brain matters.

James (03:56)

Yeah, I wasca and DMT more broadly is the thing that has humbled me intellectually more than anything else in the world, basically. ⁓ before I wasca and also just vaporized DMT, I, ⁓ I felt I was interested in things like psilocybin induced mystical experiences, LSD, like these substances.

James (04:21)

seem to fit nicely with our neuroscientific stories. You know, we have this this paradigm now of understanding the brain as a prediction machine that where you can understand the self as a kind of something that’s like simulated in consciousness. And this, this whole paradigm fits nicely with the idea that you should be able to dissolve the self and have experiences of ego dissolution and unity with existence. That’s what the train I was interested in, felt very comfortable with extremely confident explaining how these

James (04:50)

science and spirituality matches up in a way that where you don’t have to diminish either one just because you can explain it what’s going on the brain doesn’t make that unity any less real. are truly part of the unfolding universe. It’s not like a delusion or something. ⁓ and so when I, with the kind of, with our Oscar and DMT, the, ⁓ the phenomenology, the experience of it, the, the entity encounters, the kind of the really out there stuff was, I was not expecting the experience of kind of hyper reality of feeling like

James (05:18)

you’re remembering this is true reality or that kind of stuff. ⁓ I was not really expecting, ⁓ and before someone does this, it’s very easy just to be like, well, why would, know, obviously you’ve taken a drug, your brain’s doing this stuff. Why would you take it seriously? And then you have to experience yourself and then you’re like, okay. That’s why people take it seriously. Cause it doesn’t, it doesn’t, there’s a lot about it that doesn’t lend itself to a simple reductive explanation of like, it’s just your brain making noise or whatever.

James (05:46)

as you might expect, it’s just distortions and things. So from that place of humility, still, you know, given my training and my background and my biases, I still am interested in the project of explaining how, how this stuff might be explainable without invoking unseen hidden supernatural elements. You know, I still am very much interested in perhaps there’s like explanations about how the brain might be in some kind of

James (06:14)

it’s like an archetypal dream state, know, where like you’re dramatizing stuff that has truth value that feels very real and significant. So those kinds of explanations is where my bias lies. But yeah, I have a lot of respect for Indigenous worldviews and for other interpretations. So yeah, I guess there’s a lot to say about it. think the, in my own experience, you know, I went on and I’ve been on one ayahuasca retreat, multiple ceremonies, and had a lot of different experiences from

James (06:44)

emotional catharsis, healing trauma stuff, through to very trippy DMT world, kind of alien landscapes, and through to kind of feeling like entities were performing soul surgery on me. And I’d say that yeah, those were the main

Sam Believ (06:52)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (06:57)

This is so unbelievable.

James (07:05)

main experiences and initially, I guess before this stuff like

James (07:13)

figured there may have been a kind of a neurotic anxiety to need to explain our way. And now I’m a lot more comfortable with the mystery. I’m a lot more comfortable being awed by the experiences. And whereas I think that was a sense of what people call ontological shock, where you have this sense of like, wait, what is this? I didn’t know this was on the menu for existence to experience this kind of stuff. So yeah, there’s a lot of different avenues we could go into there.

Sam Believ (07:39)

Well, ⁓ as a scientist and with your depth of understanding, what do you think about entities? What are they in your opinion?

James (07:49)

Yeah, yeah, it’s a great place to go with it. I again, the humility thing is, I may end up just being like, I don’t know, ⁓ really, but I will give some some speculations.

James (08:02)

My experience of this was very much of extremely convincing, as convincing as talking to you now, if not actually more convincing, it felt more real, the whole environment as in felt more real and familiar and a sense of obviousness of recognizing, like waking up from the matrix or something like if you’d chosen to go in and then kind of be like, ⁓ of course this is what’s really happening. so from that subjective experiential side, really, it doesn’t feel like you’re going to explain it away.

James (08:31)

just talking about the brain, but that is why I now go on to try to speculate about because I do think it is possible. It is plausible to me that this stuff could be generated by the brain. But when I say that again, it doesn’t mean it’s reductive in that it’s always just kind of mean this experience. I far more think about it as like profound states as a set of like archetypes that we have to reckon with. If we want to be whole, you know, to really engage with deep aspects of what we are. So

James (09:01)

So when I think about entities, I do think like there’s a story you could tell about the fact that the way we think about consciousness scientifically is the contents of consciousness is as a kind of controlled hallucination that right now this experience, the world isn’t actually, you’re not just seeing a world directly as it is. This is actually a kind of something you’re dreaming up in every moment. And, it’s being controlled in the sense that the information coming in through your senses is stabilizing it. And so you see this with things like

James (09:30)

There was that dress that went viral years ago, that some people saw it as white and gold and some people saw it as blue and black. And in that moment, people suddenly realized that we’re not actually in contact with objective reality. We were in contact with our experience with reality and we have, we each carry around these different experiences of the world. so in light of that, and then think about when you dream at night, you can conjure up these whole worlds of interacting with people. ⁓ and given that we’re social primates, it makes sense that

James (10:00)

deep part of our programming is interacting with other entities, detecting, you know, like right now it’s palpable with the sense that certain pixels on the screen are you an agent that I should be interacting with and other things are tabs that aren’t agents, aren’t entities that should be interacting with. So when you start to think about it that way, it starts to become plausible that you could activate very deep parts of our programming that would then dramatize in like this kind of dreamlike way. It’s very convincing entity encounters in the same way that

James (10:29)

entity encounter between you and I right now is actually playing out in my consciousness from my side and your consciousness on your side. So we know we can do this as organisms. So that is my bias is to say, how far can we take this kind of story without needing to genuinely autonomously existing entities and things like that, which is how it feels in the experience. Yeah. So that’s the Avenue I go down. And there’s been some research.

James (10:56)

a colleague at, ⁓ have my Chris Timman at Imperial College London, who has done some studies where he found that, ⁓ theta oscillations, which is a certain rate of brain waves that occurs during sleep that peaks during, ⁓ the DMT experience. And so he was making the case that this kind of dreams story, the idea that the brain is in some dream state, a waking dream that that fits with the effects of DMT on the brain. So yeah, that’s my,

James (11:26)

my current hypothesis.

Sam Believ (11:30)

Maybe you can talk to some of your colleagues that do research on brain and psychedelics. have a really great idea for a study, which is also somewhat simple. ⁓ On Ayahuasca, I have experienced ⁓ visions that are not with your eyes ⁓ closed, but with your eyes open, but not ⁓ separate. So basically it’s like a reality that is being enhanced. So you see like energy flows and stuff like that.

Sam Believ (11:58)

⁓ The experiment would be done ⁓ such so you have ⁓ you give people psychedelics I think could be done with mushrooms or maybe a waska that puts them in that state that allows them to ⁓ see enhanced reality ⁓ and you could use VR. ⁓ You could then put them on VR goggles on them and if the reality in VR is still enhanced, it means that it’s just a general concept.

Sam Believ (12:27)

⁓ But if you only see energy flows ⁓ in reality in nature, that means that you actually see energy. So as opposed to hallucinating, you then see something that you normally don’t see and then psychedelics serve as ⁓ a telescope for being able to see stars. What do you think about that? ⁓

James (12:36)

Right.

James (12:43)

Right, right.

James (12:48)

Yeah, Right. it’s like, yeah, it’s an interesting idea to be like in one situation, you’re genuinely looking out of the world and in another situation, you’re not. And so if there’s something that’s present in the world you’re detecting, you should be able to see it in the, yeah, it’s an interesting paradigm. Cause I, and I think, yeah, people report stuff like kind of group experiences on ayahuasca and kind of telepathy and things like that anecdotally. I have no real familiarity with the kind of,

James (13:18)

My interest in spirituality stuff is very much of the kind of, guess, like, sides of things like Buddhism that are understood scientifically rather than kind of parapsychology and things. But I think there’s definitely like a hostility to this kind of stuff in the scientific mainstream that is not, you know, it would be better to have this stuff just be studied in a way where there’s not this big cultural divide. So, yeah, I would welcome studies like that just to test it one way or the other, because people seem to, it’s, what we can say is this stuff is definitely a profound, like,

James (13:47)

these kinds of weird experiences are definitely a part of the human psyche and to not study them, even if you end up concluding whatever you end up concluding, actually, either way we want to know to pretend, I mean, I guess we live in a culture that doesn’t really value human experience very much. So I guess it’s part of that whole thing of just like, psychedelics, consciousness, we’ll push that over to the side and focus on like the hard material world, economics and physics and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, I’d like to see a world where we study through paradigms such as that, the

James (14:17)

richness of human experience more.

Sam Believ (14:20)

Understand what you mean. I came to ayahuasca myself very much so from the point of view of, you know, it’s going to do something to my brain and make me less depressed. It was all scientifically proven. I’m not a scientist, but I’m an engineer and I come from a very non-religious background. So that’s how I view the world. But now after running an ayahuasca retreat for three years, I’ve been a witness to many of events that cannot be explained. ⁓

James (14:33)

Great.

Sam Believ (14:48)

I can at least tell you that. And now I believe that there’s an invisible connection between people, whether you call it telepathy or something else, but like a son has an experience and the father knows what experience son had or there is a connection. It’s almost like, so that that kind of is no longer a doubt. cannot prove it, but I can assure you that it’s a reality and the connection is stronger between ⁓

Sam Believ (15:18)

family members, for example, that it is between everyone. And I’ve obviously seen, had psychedelic experience where you can see that everything is connected, which is hard to understand when you’re not in that state. But ⁓ obviously scientifically, would say it would probably be ⁓ frowned upon. But what do you think about that personally?

James (15:37)

I mean, the thing you just described is anecdotally like a very robust thing people report in terms of family members connections of insignificant moments. You know, people close to me have described that. And in the past, they would have just dismissed it as and you can you know, it’s important to be aware that when you’re dealing with like, anecdotes and stuff like that can be a selection effect where like, you know,

James (16:01)

the people who tell you their stories, thousands of people don’t have those experiences. And so there can be these kinds of things that lead to an impression that there’s something there when actually truly is coincidence. And, but at the same time, I, and I, but I think I used to reject those based on, again, I mentioned before, kind of, before we do healing work, they can just be this basic existential anxiety. That’s kind of, especially if you’re someone who’s scientifically oriented, just to kind of, you’re emotionally motivated to explain these things away and be like, I don’t want them to be true. Cause it feels weird to me. I want to fit in with the mainstream.

James (16:32)

So now I don’t have that anxiety anymore. And so I’m little more open to it, but I would basically, I mean, that is why I love science because it’s like when it’s done right, it’s about getting yourself out of the way, getting what you want to be true out of the way and just being like, we’re just going to set it up and try and test it and give it a fair shot. And the interconnections you mentioned is like,

James (16:56)

It is, it’s an illusion to think that we’ve truly got all of reality pinned down and that we know exactly what’s going on. And it doesn’t seem impossible to me that a hundred years from now, we could have a deeper understanding of physics where it’s like, actually there is some, there’s some way in which the parts of reality resonate with each other that, that allows something like that. I used to think that, that, that doesn’t fit with our current stories of physics. So it’s not true. Whereas now I’m like, our stories are provisional. They’re going to change. Who knows? I’m fundamentally open basically.

Sam Believ (17:26)

Yeah, it’s like if you can, if I’m talking to you right now through wifi, I believe I’m using Starlink right now. So it’s like how, why isn’t it possible there is some other kind of ⁓ wave that we haven’t detected yet that maybe is on some kind of different spectrum? Yeah, there’s still lots, lots we don’t understand, but this is, ⁓ this specific story I can give you is a person have not spoken to his father for five years.

James (17:35)

me too.

Sam Believ (17:55)

⁓ There’s been a deep trauma between them ⁓ He had an ayahuasca experience all about that specifically about his father and the next morning his father called me and said he has a feeling that they have to speak and They haven’t spoken for five years. So coincidence possibly ⁓ or like a lady having a very deep experience and then ⁓ her entire like maternal family line calling her and like

Sam Believ (18:21)

what’s going on, I’ve been feeling this stuff because something has been removed from the entire generation. ⁓ those are not, they’re not that common, but still it’s enough to be like, what the hell is going on? mean, you can, of course you can make it up, but when it’s like firsthand, then it’s, then it gets harder to, to reject. So hopefully science will catch up with that.

James (18:26)

Yeah.

James (18:41)

Yeah.

James (18:44)

That’s the kind of thing I was talking about when I said it’s definitely a thing people experience. so no matter what’s going on, it’s part of human experience and it’s there to be understood. we should be doing that instead of, because the bias at the moment is just to preemptively write it off as impossible because of some artificial confidence that we’ve got everything figured out. So yeah, having that attitude of humility and openness, think is why is it corrective to that.

Sam Believ (19:09)

So James, you wrote a book, Dawn of Mind and How Matter Became Conscious. ⁓ As somebody who, for those who watching the video, you have a brain on the shelf on your background, so you must know a lot. ⁓ Where do thoughts originate? What do say?

James (19:26)

Hopefully one in my head too. I said, hopefully one in my head too. He said, I a brain on the shelf. Sarah spoke over your question. it where do thoughts originate? Is that the question?

Sam Believ (19:31)

Hopefully I can see it, but I can assume there is one. ⁓

Sam Believ (19:39)

Yeah, where do thoughts come from? know, like, ⁓ do they come from brain as brain, brain just an antenna? What is your opinion?

James (19:46)

Yeah, so I guess the subtitle for people who are more into the metaphysical side of things and tuned into that, the subtitle may be slightly misleading when I say how matter became conscious in the life because while I do think it makes sense to talk about the physical, I’m not, you could say like, I don’t believe that there is a solid substance called matter that is like a

James (20:07)

think reality is like a process like, so there’s, this gets into, yeah, more kind of spiritual conception of reality that is very philosophically and scientifically grounded. So there’s part of the synthesis of science and spirituality. So I think experience itself like consciousness. The point that kind of the picture they lay out in the book is to say that when you see reality as a process that’s not made of solid substance, I don’t think it’s made of mind, but I think it’s made of

James (20:36)

Yeah, it’s like a flowing river of interdependence of like, yeah, relational. So the whole isn’t connected with itself, but it’s fundamentally empty of substance. so reality, the way that it relates to itself is what we call matter, that kind of web of relations that physicists study. And I think consciousness is a kind of relationality between organism and environment. So we’re conscious because we’re like this.

James (21:05)

moment to moment with this evolutionary process that’s discovering how to be in the world that we’re fundamentally connecting to the rest of existence to discover, you know, basically like how to be self organized. And I go into the science of this and like self organization and stuff like that in the book. But so the key takeaway is that it’s actually not the brain or the nervous system that brought consciousness into existence. It’s life, it’s being an embodied living thing. And so any living thing will will feel will have experiences, even

Sam Believ (21:14)

Thank you.

James (21:31)

single celled organisms, even plants. and there’s, you know, whole paradigms now of like plant intelligence research and stuff like that, suggesting they have some mental functions. So it’s very much fits with kind of animist views of, ⁓ yeah, indigenous views of experience being widespread. I point very firmly in my book to the fact that we are fully part of nature. The rest of the living world is truly our kin, like our relatives. They’re not, we’re not separate. We’re not superior. We may be able to control them technologically, but we’re not better or like.

Sam Believ (21:57)

Thank you.

James (22:02)

And that’s that sense of separation, that misperception is at the root of ecological breakdown and climate crisis and goes all the way back to colonization and, along with that suppression of psychedelics, which tap you into this, this kind of more holistic vision of the world, beyond separation. so I think that’s where experiences, that’s where experience or consciousness comes into the story. And, and it’s very much like because we’re

Sam Believ (22:27)

Thank you.

James (22:29)

because of the interconnections of existence and because we are fully part of it, it’s not that we are these little alienated separate organisms that have experiences. It’s rather that the universe kind of wakes up through us, that it’s not a coincidence that you’re having the conscious, even though consciousness is this kind of vast, very grounded thing. It’s, it’s not a coincidence that it’s appearing in this way that’s connected with this body at this time. You’re not having the experience of being the sun or being an atom or being a river.

James (22:58)

I think it’s, it’s very much to do with being a living thing, but it’s like, we’re like the eyes with which the universe sees, you know, opens its eyes through us and takes in itself. ⁓ so, so that that’s experience. then thoughts is something more complicated because it’s like, thoughts you get, it’s like the brain. I mentioned before this idea we have now of the brain is a prediction machine where it’s constantly predicting and simulating what’s going on in the world to help it survive. ⁓ and when you do that, you.

James (23:27)

it’s like hierarchical, so it gets more and more abstract. So at the lowest level, it’s like, okay, I’m seeing blue of the sky, and then I’m seeing, I’m seeing like blue, blue, blue, white, white, white, pixels of colors. And then at a higher level, it’s like, okay, well, that’s a, that’s a shape, and that’s a shape, and then a higher level, it’s like, well, that’s a cloud, that’s a, that’s the sky, and then a higher level is the whole scene. And this is kind of how AI systems work now, based on this, this kind of extraction of more and more abstract features, which was inspired by the brain.

James (23:56)

So in that view, yeah, and the self is the highest abstraction of all of it. You know, the idea of who you take yourself to be. Yeah, it’s this kind of fantasy of some invention, some highly abstracted thing. So when you’re dealing with thoughts, you’re dealing with these very abstracted perceptions of reality that are useful to allow us to navigate, but they’re fundamentally distorting in the…

James (24:25)

You know, a simple example is like, you, if you’re a gardener and you see a plant in your garden that you don’t want to be there, that we would call a weed, you might get angry and you might figure, there’s a weed in my garden. That’s annoying. And you objectively perceive that to objectively be a weed. But then someone might say to you, say you’ve got a neighbor from a different country and they say, actually, that’s a really prized plant in our country. We really like it. We don’t consider it a weed at all.

James (24:47)

In that moment, can realize, yeah, weeds, plants are not objectively weeds. The concept of a weed is a thought I’m having an idea I’m having an interpretation that I’m bringing to bear of how I relate to that plant. But to be a weed means I don’t want it in my garden. It doesn’t mean objectively as a weed for the humans died. It wouldn’t be a weed. ⁓ it would just be a plant. ⁓ or it wouldn’t even be a plant. Like everything is, is this is kind of points to reality itself is beyond our ideas of it beyond our concepts. It transcends. Yeah. Ideas and the concepts and thoughts.

James (25:17)

So, so that’s the kind of, that’s where thoughts emerge. think, I think, I don’t think worms are thinking. I think there, there may be some level of interpretation, but I think it’s basic, quite simple things, pleasure, that kind of stuff. But then when you get complex brains like ours, that’s when you can leverage these abstractions and language really sends into overdrive and that we can have these symbols of like, ⁓ yeah, that we can use as, a kind of structure to structure our language, to structure our thoughts.

James (25:48)

⁓ but it’s, but that’s really where we get into all the trouble of suffering. Cause we start to, that’s what delusion creeps in. And we start to distort how we see the world, ⁓ in an emotionally motivated way. And it takes us away from that wholeness, that connectedness, that simplicity of, of being in flow with existence and into this analysis mode where it’s, you feel genuinely separate and other things are separate and that you’ve somehow got to navigate through this, this world that you’re separate from.

Sam Believ (26:18)

A lot of it is above my pay grade, very complex ⁓ analysis, but ⁓ it feels like when you go deep in scientific approach and you’re trying to analyze the reality or consciousness, there seems to start to become this interlap between what we know as science and what we know as spirituality. where can science and spirituality be compatible?

James (26:49)

Yeah, so for me, the this issue of concepts and mistaking them for reality, like in the weed example is

James (27:00)

So when you understand that reality is beyond our concepts of it, and you get really clear about what’s the map and what’s the territory, you know, the territory of existence is this, like whatever’s here right now, that’s beyond words. And then the words, the thoughts, the concepts, they all overlay it. But we don’t typically see it that way. As I was pointing to, we mistake our concepts for reality. We think the weed is genuinely a weed. We think, you know, I’m genuinely James who lives in my head somewhere and looks out from behind my eyes. Yeah, we get into confusion there.

James (27:30)

And so in terms of how they fit together, they fit together in quite a simple way. that spirituality for me is about connecting with what’s real with like what’s here beyond words now, what’s ineffable and, and yeah, so real that it can’t be encapsulated by our thoughts about it in the same way you can’t pour the ocean into a thimble. It’s just not going to happen. Thoughts can be, can encompass reality. ⁓ so that’s how they fundamentally fit together, but then on a more

James (27:58)

detailed level, then you get into how neuroscience, you know, they should fit together. If we’re studying the same reality through internal methods and external methods, it makes sense they would fit together. And so when you have experiences of ego dissolution and then neuroscientists, especially with psychedelic research can look at the brain and say, well, actually with the abstractions I mentioned before that it does make sense that what is the self? It’s a, it’s a, an idea. It’s a thought basically it’s a

James (28:28)

there isn’t actually a thing that exists, they inhabits the body that is the self. isn’t, yeah, an agent that owns the body. There is just this organism, which itself is a process that’s fundamentally part of reality. So even the body isn’t truly separate. But we don’t typically feel like we are the body. We feel like we kind of own it. You know, there are studies where if they hold an object close to your head versus your foot, people typically say it’s closer to them when it’s

James (28:55)

close to the head. And if you wouldn’t, if you thought you were the body, you would say it’s equally close in both, both cases. ⁓ so this seems to be a robust phenomenon that we, yeah, we feel like we are the self. ⁓ and then ego dissolution gives us a really good linchpin point to say subjectively through spiritual experience and objectively through the study of what we are as organisms, how they fit together. And I said before, how I don’t think they diminish each other. I don’t think understanding, because I guess it’s like,

James (29:23)

scientific understanding isn’t explaining away the spiritual experience, because that’s what’s most real. What it’s explaining is delusion. How is it that the brain and the organism gets itself into this confused state where it thinks it is a separate self? Like that’s the thing that is explaining, in my opinion. And so the spiritual experience is self-validating. It’s a state of just that which cannot be doubted if you’re connecting with a non-conceptual ground of reality.

James (29:48)

And then the thing you have to explain is the delusion, the usual state we live in and walk around in. Where we do think we’re a self that lives in a world with separate objects and that we’re not part of this unit of expressiveness of being.

Sam Believ (30:05)

Thank you for that explanation. you mentioned that when it came to psychedelics first for the ⁓ more of a learning, you encountered some emotional stuff coming up. ⁓ if you can share what was it and how, was it, were you able to resolve it? Were psychedelics helpful for you in that process?

James (30:26)

Yeah. Yeah. So the, ⁓ I’ll give broad strokes out of interest of, ⁓ the people involved, but it was pretty standard, ⁓ emotional challenges from childhood stuff of, you know, ⁓ and there was, yeah, kind of a reckoning with, I guess there was a sense of, if I guess the whole thing felt like a maturation process, a process of,

James (30:52)

becoming an adult, of feeling like there were these wounded childhood parts that hadn’t been integrated, and that I needed to meet them and fully accept them and witness them and bring them into my system as a whole, instead of leaving them disconnected. And so by facing memories that set up those those traumas of the yeah, let those parts feeling that way, there was a sense of increasing wholeness and this the experience itself was very much a kind of

James (31:23)

Yeah, going through memories and imagining confronting people who, who’d wronged me in a way where I felt empowered and imagined a positive, you know, had a vision of a positive resolution where I asserted myself and stood up for myself even. Which is when you’re like two and this stuff is playing out, it’s, it’s, you can’t assert yourself at that age. So imagining yourself as an adult defending your younger self, that was a big part of it. Actually. Yeah. That was a key vision was imagining young me as like a two year old adults.

James (31:52)

behaving self optimally and then me stepping in as an adult, I’m kind of standing off myself. That was very powerful. ⁓ there was also the purgative side of it, the kind of vomiting, which I found that coupled with the emotional repression was of a, a, a discomfort with that opening to just letting my body do what it wanted to do. It felt like, again, James was the, the ego in the head somewhere that was using thought to repress and control the body. And instead of allowing the body to just

James (32:21)

be this instinctive animal that wanted to vomit. There was this going into the head of just kind of like, you know, I’m only five minutes into the ceremony. If I vomit now, maybe they won’t have, you know, the dose won’t have kicked in. like, so all this analysis that’s fundamentally about repression, disconnection from emotion. I think that’s what’s really powerful with Ayahuasca as well. The, I think disgust and vomiting is such a primal, I think actually even our most primal sense of self is really based around that.

James (32:49)

maintaining our boundary of like, if I’ve ingested something that’s not me, that’s bad for me, I need to get it out of me. Like a single celled organism needs to get stuff in and out of its membrane. Like I think that’s maybe the most primal layer of our sense of self. And so it really allowed me to go into that terrain of the most kind of deep emotional repressiveness and to feel into that threshold between what is it to feel like an abstracted.

James (33:15)

identity who represses emotion versus to feel like an animal that’s allowed to be itself and to express itself. so yeah, there’s a lot of emotional catharsis, ⁓ with that stuff. And I think it is pretty standard. mean, you’re the one who you’ve seen a lot of this stuff more than me, but it felt very, like, yeah, acquire standard healings, like a, a wasp experience. And then the group shares as well as part of as well, which was also very healing to just be witnessed in describing this stuff to other people.

James (33:43)

I had a really nice group I was with. Yeah.

Sam Believ (33:50)

So what do you think is the potential for psychedelics? Can they be not good in the society or what do you think?

James (34:02)

Yeah, so I think, I think they should absolutely be part of mainstream society in terms of saying society would embrace them is my still my my thinking. And I think the evangelism people can have with psychedelics, where there’s excitement that this is the answer. I understand why that’s the case, because, you know, I think I described before how we we kind of perceive ourselves to be separate from the rest of universe, and humans make this mistaken perception.

James (34:31)

least in the modern world that we’re separate from nature, we’re superior to it. Interhuman violence happens when we are the people and we don’t see them as like ourselves. So separation, perceived separation, where actually there isn’t separation, the reality as whole. That is the engine of discord, suffering, yeah, in the whole world. But it’s this fractal picture where it’s from this individual all the way up to society and our connection with nature. I think separation is the issue. so coming into connection,

James (34:59)

wholeness, the wholeness that’s already here in the present moment, just mindfully orienting again and again to that wholeness is the solution. And psychedelics can really do that in a way that if your brain and your body is locked up through trauma, you know, in my case, I can’t know if it’s true that I needed it, but it really helped to have these tools. felt like I needed it basically, I needed to soften up my brain to really let myself access these traumas.

James (35:25)

And so, and when I say soften up my brain, I’m talking there about the plasticity and stuff that can make it sound like they have a damaging effect on the brain, which is not what I’m saying. so yeah, I think that’s, there’s absolutely reason to have excitement in that, in thinking that way. But then, you know, the sixties happened and that’s, really had this effect of going from the individual to the social, but it was, it was boxed back in afterwards and

James (35:54)

I can feel the boxing in happening already with this kind of psychedelic renaissance in scientific research, I can feel it being channeled into the least revolutionary versions of what it could become in terms of changing society and the world for the better. And so I think given that fractal structure, without people being kind of socially engaged and really kind of quite radical in how they’re thinking about the context in which we’re using these substances, I think they won’t be

James (36:23)

that transformative. And also when you’re, when you’re not taking that wide view, that’s also where it’s difficult to, we don’t have the networks of care that we’re supposed to have as social primates. We’re supposed to have like living, totally new communities with lots of room for care and breathing room. And without that, that can lead to kind of neurotic, egoic struggling and difficulty in surrendering because you don’t have the right level of care. So then you can get abusive practitioners and you can get

James (36:52)

just stuff spiraling out of, know, in ways that we don’t want. So I have that, I still have that sympathy for it, but it’s not a slam dunk. Like it’s not like psychedelics alone are gonna heal the world because it’s a, there are other facets that need to be, need to be factored in.

Sam Believ (37:12)

So you mentioned neuroplasticity, which is one of the ways they explain how the healing and change happens in your brain through psychedelics. But you you drink ayahuasca six hours after it’s out of your system. How come we have changes ⁓ that, ⁓ for some people, persist for entire life? So what’s the neuroscientific perspective on that?

James (37:39)

Yeah, so I mean, the when these things enter the system, they interact with receptors on neurons, particular parts of the brain and very specific pathways. And when they induce plasticity, the even though this the substance can can leave the system, things have been set in motion. So and then when there’s plasticity, there’s there’s room for that, that new trajectory to to

James (38:09)

take shape over a long period of time. So there’s more thinking about this stuff in terms of complex systems, dynamical systems, systems that thinking of the brain and the body as these systems that evolve over time. Robin Harris, who’s a kind of leading figure in this stuff, he takes a lot of this kind of perspective. And in that perspective, you’re not thinking of the brain as this static object that, okay, now it’s not a drug, now it’s not a drug. It’s that it’s evolving, developing, constantly changing.

James (38:39)

Pleasicity is always happening as well throughout our entire lifetime. Like right now, our neurons are kind of wriggling and writhing as they’re reconnecting every moment. And that happens our whole lifetime. So it’s kind of like, it sets you on a new trajectory. hits the course you’re currently on. It can send you on a new course. And if that course is one that is self-reinforcing, then it could just keep going and you could just have a transformative path for the rest of your life. There’s also, you know, it’s not as simple as the

James (39:09)

connect to a receptor and then they affect the neuron and that’s it. There can be intracellular signaling cascades and there’s a whole, even individual cells, as these vast universes of complexity that we do not fully understand by any means. So there’s a lot of questions to look at there, but it’s, yeah, it’s a…

James (39:29)

The taking of, mean, people, you know, we’ll often talk about how the integration is as important as the experience itself. I think that’s true that the psychedelic itself is a moment of perturbing the system, but then the evolution of the system over time is really, it’s really the important thing.

Sam Believ (39:47)

Thank you for that explanation. ⁓

Sam Believ (39:52)

You know, we can get to the altered states through psychedelics, but also some people are able to get there naturally through meditation. What is the similarities and differences between those states? ⁓ And ⁓ what is the mechanism in which that people who are meditating can get to the same ⁓ states?

James (40:12)

Yeah, so the I was gonna my first thing was to point out how the, you the obvious thing is that psychedelics can induce these fireworks perceptually that aren’t as common with meditation, but then they do happen. And actually myself, I was on a 10 day meditation retreat once and about day nine, I started having insane DMT like experiences whenever I close my eyes, it was like my body dissolved was exploding, there’s colors everywhere. It was really intense. I was very surprised.

James (40:41)

at that time, I think at that point, as you hadn’t tried DMT, it was only after the fact that it seemed similar. And so, I mean, if you take something like you give a solution in both cases, you can, so you go back to this hierarchy of abstractions in the brain, and people may have heard of the default mode network, which is kind of sits at the top of this hierarchy, which is kind of the puppeteer that connects our kind of memories and our orienting in the present moment and towards thought and to kind of thinking through

James (41:11)

past and future and who I am like all that stuff is it kind of sits at the top of the hierarchy and psychedelics, the receptors that psychedelics act on are very densely expressed in those brain areas. So they, they, they perturb the activity there. They soften and, and, ⁓ lead to you holding on less tightly to your, your interpretations, you know, so you take someone who’s very depressed and the main way people think about psychedelics now is, is in terms of

James (41:38)

the state before psychedelics as being one, if you’re suffering with some mental health issue, like depression, I mean, there’s obviously a lot of different issues, but it can be a state of rigidity where you’re set in some, some ruts where like, just have your, your habitual patterns, ways of being that aren’t serving you, but you’re, you’re just stuck in them. And then psychedelics basically allow you a lot more flexibility to check in and be like, well, actually is this serving me? Is this true? So someone who, ⁓

James (42:05)

found a useful coping mechanism to be pessimistic and to be self-critical and to not have aspirations because they learned that whenever they had aspirations, they felt they failed or say, for example, they had traumatic experiences that led them to internalize this sense that they’re not someone who succeeds. If you’re repeating that story to yourself decade after decade, despite the fact that maybe by that point, you are actually a very competent person who could achieve things, but you’re still repeating this story because it feels safe, even though it feels unpleasant and you’re in pain.

James (42:35)

and your wellbeing’s not great. The system wants to keep you surviving. It’s mainly interested in like, if you’re still getting food and you’re not dying, then we’ll keep with this story because it’s good enough for survival rather than flourishing. So then when you have the psychedelic, you have the opportunity where maybe that thought arises of like, ⁓ I shouldn’t go for that job because I’m not, I won’t get it. And then that moment, just the system isn’t as, you don’t go so rapidly from thought to like, yes, that’s true.

James (43:05)

Instead, there’s a lot more flexibility to be like, well, is it true? Like, actually, maybe let’s question that. Let’s think of that. actually, there’s these memories that are associated. It kind of expands the whole thing, allows you to investigate the connections. And then to maybe, well, actually, last week, I did something that I succeeded in. I can update this belief I have about myself. So in that way, psychedelics can really…

James (43:26)

allow you to go in and reprogram the highest levels of this hierarchy. And then with meditation, you’re doing a similar thing where it just so happens that you can use the circuitry of the brain itself. You can use attention to modify the same brain circuits. And so the trajectory will be different. You probably wouldn’t have those same, you know, experiences that unfold over the course of minutes they do in psychedelics, but you can suppress activity in the default mode network. And so if you take a high enough dose of a psychedelic, you could

James (43:56)

not only start to have a flexible sense of self, could absolutely dissolve your sense of

Sam Believ (44:27)

Yeah, definitely. There is many ways to get to that mountain. take a, you can hike and you can take a bike or ⁓ I was, cause a helicopter takes you straight to the top, but then you can kind of, you’re going to go back again. So it’s a temporary thing as opposed to maybe other slower methods. ⁓ James, thank you so much for sharing and teaching us about those concepts. I think it was really.

Sam Believ (44:55)

educational. So where can people find more about you and more about your work and maybe where can they buy your book?

Sam Believ (45:54)

Cool, James. So thank you guys for listening and check out James’ stuff. He obviously knows a lot about the topic. James, it was pleasure to talking to you. And guys, I will see you in the next episode.

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with Pauli Kulikowska, a holistic therapist and founder of the Healing Institute. Pauli brings over 15 years of experience in therapeutic work, integrating clinical psychology, yoga, and energy modalities. She holds a master’s degree in clinical psychology, is a certified yoga teacher, and specializes in merging Eastern, Western, and Indigenous healing approaches.

Topics Discussed:

Pauli’s journey from depression to healing with ayahuasca and yoga (01:01–05:18)

Healing her brain tumor through plant medicine and lifestyle changes (05:19–08:25)

The integration process: yoga, meditation, and nervous system regulation (07:25–09:44)

Addressing cultural appropriation in plant medicine facilitation (10:15–11:40)

The role of ethics and preparation in healing practices (19:08–20:47)

Integrating Eastern, Western, and Indigenous knowledge in the Healing Institute (21:27–22:24)

Practical integration methods, including pranayama breathwork (33:27–35:52)

Traditional Tantra and its connections to shamanic practices (55:29–56:27)

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats, go to http://www.lawayra.com.

Guest Information: Find more about Pauli and her work at http://www.healinginstitute.eu.

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:01)

Hi guys and welcome to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always we do the whole assembly of today have a conversation with Pauli Kulikovska. She is a holistic therapist and the founder of the Healing Institute with over 15 years of experience in therapeutic work. She holds a master’s degree in clinical psychology and is a certified yoga teacher having completed 600 hours accredited by Yoga Alliance and 200 hours of Kundalini training.

Sam Believ (00:28)

Her practice integrates Eastern and Western knowledge, utilizing a variety of tools such as yoga, psychology and energy work to facilitate inner awakening and personal development. Pauli, welcome to the show.

Pauli Kulikowska (00:43)

Hi Sam, thank you for inviting me. It’s lovely to be here.

Sam Believ (00:48)

Paulie, did your life put you on this path of working with healing, working with plant medicines? Can you tell us your story?

Pauli Kulikowska (01:01)

can share it. It’s a little bit long, so long story short. ⁓ I was very depressed when I was a teenager and ⁓ I seeked help. went to psychotherapy ⁓ and ⁓ I was like it took one year and it wasn’t giving any effects. I was just getting more and more depressed. It was getting worse and worse. ⁓ And one day I had a dream ⁓ and ⁓ it was very different from all the dreams I had before. It was very vivid.

Pauli Kulikowska (01:31)

and ⁓ I was in a jungle and I was surrounded by 12 indigenous women who were half naked. I don’t know if it’s relevant, but maybe it is. They were putting smoke on me ⁓ with feathers. Now I understand the context, but back then, you I was 18, 19, you know, you can imagine like how weird it was. And I woke up with the words Pura Sá. ⁓ Like I heard Pura Sá, you know, I didn’t speak Spanish at the time, which was…

Pauli Kulikowska (02:00)

also very, ⁓ I could say, weird for me. So I googled what Pura Se means and I found that it ⁓ means cleanse yourself. So I like, I didn’t understand ⁓ why ⁓ it happened. But around two weeks later, a friend of mine came to me and he said that he has ⁓ brought something, access to something that works supposedly better than five years of psychotherapy. ⁓ And that is ayahuasca.

Pauli Kulikowska (02:29)

And ⁓ I was never into drugs. That’s very important part. I was never into exploring any kind of these things. But when I heard it, I was like, I didn’t know what it was. I was like, I know this is something that is this is it, you know. So I cooked it, ⁓ which ⁓ was, you know, ⁓ 15, 16, 16 years ago, 16 years ago, I cooked ayahuasca. And my first ayahuasca experience was actually with me cooking medicine, which now

Pauli Kulikowska (02:58)

I wouldn’t ever recommend doing this for anyone, to be clear, you know, but this is how my path unfolded and this is how this experience went. ⁓ And yeah, it opened up beautiful, beautiful paths. Then I went to Colombia. I studied with Shaman from Putumayo, which ⁓ was also very strong experience for me. I stayed with him ⁓ on the ETA ⁓ and ⁓ after that I came back

Pauli Kulikowska (03:28)

to Poland, because this is where I come from originally. I don’t live there anymore. ⁓ I met and it came out that I was sick. It came out after my trip to Colombia, after my diet, it came out that I was sick. ⁓ My period stopped for 10 months. ⁓ I didn’t know what was happening. I was gaining a lot of weight. was sick. was just sick, you know. And so we did ⁓

Pauli Kulikowska (03:56)

a very very thorough medical ⁓ survey what was wrong with me you know I had all these medical checkups and it came out that I had a brain tumour ⁓ in my pituitary gland which is not it wasn’t malicious but it was ⁓ it demanded surgery but at the time in Poland I would have to wait like around one year for a surgery and in Colombia I already met people who

Pauli Kulikowska (04:23)

thanks to the medicine work and plant medicine has ⁓ gone out of. I saw stories of ⁓ cancer healings and ⁓ people who had trouble with walking, who were walking again. So I figured I have one a year. So either ⁓ there is something I can do myself ⁓ with the tools that I have and learning about the body and about the stuff. ⁓

Pauli Kulikowska (04:50)

And this is how it all started. And after one year, I was clear. I didn’t have a tumour. My period came back. ⁓ It was a big journey, but it was just the beginning of ⁓ something more because later on I did a yoga training and became a teacher and also started to teach people these modalities, ⁓ these healing modalities that beautifully complement each other.

Pauli Kulikowska (05:18)

And this is my story.

Sam Believ (05:19)

Interesting. So as you were waiting for your surgery, you did what I assume ayahuasca. What else did you do? And then it kind of went away. Can you tell us?

Pauli Kulikowska (05:31)

Yes, ⁓ started, I basically completely changed my lifestyle ⁓ from what I had before. I mean, it wasn’t tragic, but ⁓ still, you know, I changed my diet completely. ⁓ I started to do cleanses, dietas, like dietas, know, ⁓ like the diet I had in Colombia, but different ones like fasting, fasting, a lot of meditation, a lot of medicine.

Pauli Kulikowska (05:58)

⁓ and yoga ⁓ was a big, big, big, big thing because ⁓ one of the issues with the higher centers in the brain ⁓ is that there was like over-stimulation of the energy, there was too much energy in my brain, so my body wasn’t adapting fast enough, so I needed to introduce, I understand it from the perspective of time, but this is what I felt, my nervous system needed to ⁓ adapt bodywork.

Pauli Kulikowska (06:27)

in order to integrate the work that I did in Colombia before Colombia and then after Colombia as well. So this is how it went. It was a combination of various things, a lot of self-inquiry, healing my relationship with my femininity because this was also related to this. ⁓ yes, in a shortcut. It was many years ago, but this is how it went.

Sam Believ (06:58)

So I mean, I can imagine that the story like this makes you a big believer in the power of plant medicines and all those modalities. And this is how you stepped on this path to from healing yourself to now healing others. So you talk about too much information as in, is it kind of integration process that

Sam Believ (07:25)

you went through with yoga or what is what is it can you talk to us

Pauli Kulikowska (07:28)

Yes, ⁓ it’s the integration on the level of nervous system, ⁓ also cellular level, because medicine gives us access to all these dimensions and ⁓ we see information. I saw a lot of info about my past lives and stuff like this, why ⁓ I’m here, why did I meet medicine this early in my life, why the first medicine I had to cook.

Pauli Kulikowska (07:56)

why it happened like this. Everything was ⁓ revealed at that time to me. ⁓ I didn’t believe in it because I think there was a part of me that didn’t fully believe that a person like a woman from Eastern Europe could ⁓ actually be called to do this work as well ⁓ because I was putting shamans and particularly male figures ⁓ on the very high pedestal in the midst of this work.

Pauli Kulikowska (08:25)

And medicine kind of explained that there is needed ⁓ more balance, more feminine approach, more gentle approach with ⁓ more gentle medicine work, know, with proper preparation to do it, ⁓ adapting the body first, with ⁓ solving the emotional issues, kind of the first layer before we even introduce the medicine, you know, to do the work ⁓ that she can do. ⁓

Pauli Kulikowska (08:57)

So yes, yoga, definitely meditation. ⁓ But yoga I see as part of meditation practice is ⁓ needed ⁓ because also I met in my history with medicine, you know, I went through various communities and met a lot of people and I met people who live from ceremony to ceremony and nothing changes in their life. They just introduced medicine and you know, they ⁓ say they’re

Pauli Kulikowska (09:22)

they’re sitting in the light and basically they’re still addicted to alcohol, know, ⁓ their relationships are shit, sorry for saying that, but you know, it’s like nothing is changing, communication is not changing, their relationship with themselves is not changing. So, ⁓ so ayahuasca showed me in a very, on a very deep level how important it is to do the homework.

Pauli Kulikowska (09:44)

to do what she said, know, when she says there is a guidance, you have to do the homework in your daily life, build your practice, build your discipline and actually, you know, be what you are in the means also of what you preach you are, you know what I mean? It’s like be integral ⁓ in this. So yeah, this is how it was. ⁓ And yeah, that’s ⁓ like, I don’t know if this is a moment, but I wanted maybe to add. ⁓

Pauli Kulikowska (10:15)

I had a huge problem internally with facilitating medicine ⁓ because of the fact that ⁓ I understand the context where it is coming from, that this knowledge, this ⁓ sacred relationship with earth, with plants ⁓ was carried by people, by indigenous people. They paid a tremendous price for it and now we white people come in there and we are claiming this is something that we can do.

Pauli Kulikowska (10:44)

and ⁓ I had a huge conflict with that. ⁓ But medicine also showed me that…

Pauli Kulikowska (10:53)

It’s.

Pauli Kulikowska (11:40)

So my internet is not stable still. Okay, so. ⁓

Sam Believ (11:45)

Okay, we’ll cut this part out. Don’t worry, I’ll just make some notes. It was around minute 11.

Pauli Kulikowska (11:51)

Okay. Okay. Okay, perfect.

Sam Believ (11:57)

But I’ll just start with answering some of the things you’re saying. So I’ve met many people like this myself where they come to ceremony and another ceremony and another ceremony and they seem to never change. And it’s a trap for all of us. I’ve been there myself as well. What I do like about AWS is that sometimes they can also show you not to do it. And I’ve had experiences where once I came to ceremony too soon and it was like,

Sam Believ (12:27)

Why you back so soon? I gave you homework and then they kind of punished me a little bit. So that’s the beauty of this medicine is kind of self-governing and You mentioned feminine. I’ve had some great experiences with my mes which are female shamans here in Colombia and Yeah, some of my very profound experiences were with female shamans. So I think there’s there’s beauty in that actually I’ve been in the ceremony once

Pauli Kulikowska (12:31)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (12:54)

Were both the husband and the wife they were both shamans so maima and a taita and there was like one it was a ceremony were at one of my biggest sort of breakthroughs and ⁓ has to do with healing. So i’ll share it later and maybe you can give me your opinion but yeah, ⁓ there’s definitely space for I don’t think medicine really cares about gender that much. It’s ⁓

Sam Believ (13:21)

If you have it, then also I’m also Eastern European. So it’s also strange for me. There’s going to be this imposter syndrome always like why am I here in Colombia running arguably one of the biggest Thai Oscar treats in Colombia when I’m not even Colombian, but it’s like I’ve been called to it and somehow synchronistically ended up here. once again, I think medicine also doesn’t care where you’re from. There’s more than that. So when you describe, you know, healing work and

Sam Believ (13:51)

Obviously you have your approach to it. What do you think happened to you? When you healed your your tumor, what is the healing process? How does? Mental heal physical like what is your what is your understanding? Obviously have a perspective from both Eastern tradition the Amazonian tradition. How does one heal physically?

Pauli Kulikowska (14:14)

⁓ I think it all comes up to really integrating that ⁓ the psychological healing doesn’t come before spiritual healing because we’re not psychological beings, we’re spiritual beings who have psychological experience. So this was the biggest shift ⁓ in my experience, you know, and this ⁓ has kind of ⁓ gave me this access to this power that we all have. It’s like we all have connection with the source energy.

Pauli Kulikowska (14:44)

And that’s a fact, you know, and if we have connection to the source creative energy, we can create this version of reality within our system first, because this is the first mastering that we need to do. We need first to master our own personal system, learn to hold ourselves in space. ⁓ And this is one thing. And the other thing I feel like it was, it was, I, it was a grace. ⁓ It was divine grace.

Pauli Kulikowska (15:11)

⁓ I really believe I was healed. ⁓ It’s not something that I, Paulina, did. It’s not something that I, Paulina, did. This is not Paulina’s work. This is ⁓ higher powers work that Paulina has allowed ⁓ to work through her in order to ⁓ kind of heal and to recalibrate and change, actually really change ⁓ and ⁓ accept the work that… ⁓

Pauli Kulikowska (15:38)

which I am here to do. I don’t want to talk about myself in the third person, but this is how it is right now and this is how it’s growing more even in my life because the healing from my perspective never ends. It’s like an awakening gets more more sublime and we are getting to these new levels of awareness. ⁓ And as we gain awareness and consciousness within certain dimensions of our existence, we are able to actually be.

Pauli Kulikowska (16:07)

be that, be that, realize ourselves as that. ⁓ And now, for example, my path has led me to Tantra and through Tantra I am exploring, you know, a complete, I want to mention traditional Tantra, not the Western Tantra where, you know, it’s sexualized, but the traditional Tantra with, you know, ⁓ big practice, with energy forms, ⁓ with devatas, it’s called devatas. And, you know, we need to kind of know

Pauli Kulikowska (16:36)

place in all this. ⁓ I love the Lakota approach to this. It’s like the humans are the most ⁓ and should be the most humble of divine creations because we were created the last and ⁓ this is what healed me, know, ⁓ in a way also this humility, you know, realizing that this is not me doing this work, this is divine’s work.

Pauli Kulikowska (17:05)

so this is how I would explain it. But it’s multi-dimensional, it took a lot of time really, it wasn’t just one year. After one year I didn’t have tumor but I still had issues, ⁓ there were still issues to deal with, you know, it’s not like, you know, wow now after one year you can do this, no, it took many many years, you know, I’m doing this 15 years already and I’m saying that it’s still ongoing work, it’s never-ending work ⁓ and yes so this is how it goes. ⁓

Sam Believ (17:34)

So obviously you have a healing institute, right? Where you, I assume teach people how to heal. But also you described that the healing is a mostly first person project. Like you have to heal yourself. So how does, what is ⁓ the job of healer in that case? And what is the job of plant medicines in that case? Like how do, I’m trying to like create a succinct picture of how, like,

Sam Believ (18:03)

Let’s say somebody who’s listening to this episode and they’re sick physically. Walk them through how to not be sick anymore.

Pauli Kulikowska (18:14)

Wow, that’s a task I wouldn’t even dare to take, because there is no one solution for one person. And this is also one of the approaches that we have in the Healing Institute. The Healing Institute is a space which aims to connect various modalities and techniques and integrate the Western with the Eastern or the Indigenous as well, because we’re creating a space or a table where everyone can sit.

Pauli Kulikowska (18:40)

and where everyone’s voice can be heard and where everyone can be heard, you know, for who they are with the knowledge, with the wisdom they’re carrying, ⁓ even if it’s not realized yet, you know, because people who come, whom I work with, those are beautiful beings who have tremendous potential and they have a voice, healing voice as well. ⁓ So ⁓ the aim of, as I said, the aim of Healing Institute is to create a safe space for self first, self growth.

Pauli Kulikowska (19:08)

We are teaching tools, we are teaching ethics. This is very important. The first thing, the first thing and ⁓ it doesn’t matter really which modality, which healing modality, whether it’s yoga, tantra, whether it’s ⁓ some other, know, like reiki or plant medicine. Like it’s very important to have this core of ethical contact because it’s very easy to get lost ⁓ from my perspective, especially when you start to do this. ⁓

Pauli Kulikowska (19:37)

not completely material work, you know what I mean? It’s not like it’s something that is tangible in the means of you’re making a table. You’re not making a table. You’re working with a human being, with an energy system, with a human being, with a psyche, with a human being, spirit, with another person. So it’s a huge responsibility and we need to kind of learn to kind of train our mind, train our mind to find the correct alignment. So this is what we’re teaching. We’re teaching energy hygiene, we’re teaching

Pauli Kulikowska (20:07)

tools, we’re teaching ⁓ ethics and ⁓ now we’re aiming to, this is the actually next year goal, we’re aiming to connect with ⁓ the plant medicine retreats. We already have contacts but we want to make projects connecting, know, organizing ⁓ retreats ⁓ for people ⁓ who want to go to the Amazon or to indigenous communities, whether it is in America, South America or

Pauli Kulikowska (20:35)

in India as well, because there is a tremendous wisdom here as well. ⁓ And ⁓ this is what we want to do. We want to connect ⁓ everything ⁓ into this beautiful… ⁓ So that’s why we’re doing it, because there is no one way for one person. ⁓ Everyone will need something else, a little bit different approach.

Sam Believ (20:47)

Mm-hmm.

Pauli Kulikowska (20:58)

a little bit different approach. General rule, the first rule, but this is just a rule of Ayurveda is like when something is wrong, look at your food, ⁓ look at what you’re eating, look at your consumption. This is the first rule for everyone. No matter what this Ayurveda says, start with food. So start with what you are ⁓ actually ingesting in your system. So this is ⁓ the only thing I could recommend to anyone really.

Sam Believ (20:59)

Mm-hmm.

Sam Believ (21:23)

Okay.

Sam Believ (21:27)

Yeah, hypocrite, Hippocrates said, know, your let your food be your medicine, let your medicine be your food or something like that. I mean, that’s a that’s a notable goal of trying to bridge those gaps and bring, you know, Western knowledge together with Eastern knowledge and together with the indigenous knowledge. We kind of added as well, except for I mean, we

Pauli Kulikowska (21:38)

Yes.

Sam Believ (21:55)

We run Iowa screw treat. So it’s very indigenous and we’re part of a tradition and indigenous tradition. This is kind of our core. then we have integration circles or we have integration coach and therapies. And we talk about shadow work and stuff like that, which is kind of a Western approach. And then we do yoga and meditation, which is Eastern. So it’s like that. We’re also trying to find our way to make it all balance out, obviously with the big focus being.

Sam Believ (22:24)

on ayahuasca because I do believe that if you come to ayahuasca with your health issues, it will probably show you what’s, you you say it’s different for everyone. It might show you what you need. you’re really ready to listen, it will show you. What I want to ask you, so you mentioned Reiki and Tantra.

Sam Believ (22:48)

I’m very interested in all those topics and I was not at all before I started working with Awaska. Awaska was the door for me to all those possibilities. I used to believe in nothing. I’m an engineer by trade. was very non-religious, very non-spiritual. But now I’ve seen some stuff and specifically in my case, the journey that I described with the female shaman and her husband,

Sam Believ (23:18)

Waska I was back then I was just looking how to not be depressed and that’s why I was drinking I was I was just From a very sort of scientific point of view. Well, yeah, it’s gonna come into my body and it’s gonna Give me more neuro flexibility and increase my BDNF and then I’ll be not depressed anymore like that makes total sense and then it was like boom and it showed me like how universe works and all this crazy stuff and

Sam Believ (23:45)

One of the things that the medicine showed me was that I am a healer and it was like very uncomfortable to me because I have not ever thought about this and it was just just weird, you know, it was just like, what are you talking about? I’m here to heal my depression. I’m not I don’t want to be a shaman. I mean, like a lot of people do, but I was like, you know, that’s not what I want. So I resisted ⁓ somewhat till this day. However, it just keeps showing me more and more.

Sam Believ (24:13)

And even my very last ceremony was, ⁓ was kind of showing me that again. And I was, ⁓ with having a moment with my wife where she’s going through something and medicine was showing me how to sort of. Synchronize her. that’s like words cannot describe what that process is like, but it does still keeps happening to me. And then I had this connection with my Shaman, which I noticed. And he also noticed that we talked after it later. So.

Sam Believ (24:40)

It’s all real basically all the craziness all the energy stuff is real. I’m still resisting it. But let’s say How does one? Go about that, you know, I’ve been told by medicine I’m a healer like and I’ve been told by all the shamans since then that well if you want to learn you just need to drink more medicine which I’ve been doing and But let’s say somebody is a healer and a jetty killer or something that What do they do?

Pauli Kulikowska (24:47)

you

Sam Believ (25:10)

to hone that craft because obviously there’s not a university you can go to.

Pauli Kulikowska (25:16)

⁓ Yeah, the thing is, ⁓ from my perspective, I can totally relate to your story. Like this is, I feel you, I feel you really with this resisting this healing part and the healing energy and the fact that you have access to this information, how to help people, know, what to do in a particular moment, but you’re listening. That’s the thing, you’re listening. ⁓ And ⁓ I think this is the answer, really. Listen, just start listening, you know, just… ⁓

Pauli Kulikowska (25:46)

⁓ If someone, because I know there are many people who don’t feel good enough about themselves, about their, I don’t know, corporate lives, you know, now they meet medicine and suddenly they change their paths and they claim they’re healers. Everyone is a healer. That’s a fact. Everyone is a healer. Everyone has access to this energy, but not everyone is attuned to it.

Pauli Kulikowska (26:07)

So ⁓ I wouldn’t say that the medicine path is for everyone. It is for you. You got your answers. know, drink more medicine. This is your path. You know, you’re going through this path. You’re learning through this. It’s extremely challenging path. You know, people think drinking medicine is super pleasant. No, it’s super challenging path. So I admire deeply ⁓ you ⁓ for doing this and following it, following your calling because I can imagine also if you know, moving to Colombia and opening a retreat center.

Pauli Kulikowska (26:35)

can’t be really easy. ⁓ But I would say ⁓ the path of learning would be different for everyone. But what is important from my perspective, from my perspective for everyone, for everyone is to develop a personal practice, some kind of personal ⁓ meditational, you know, body-mind practice ⁓ and start to pray, connect, know, manifest, you call it how you call it.

Pauli Kulikowska (27:05)

⁓ for guidance. Because I’m saying that for everyone with whom I’m working and now as well, there is no one path. All the paths are led by this universal energy and one path is not better than the other. ⁓ So I would say pray for guidance and do your practice. ⁓ This is two things connected and the path will reveal itself because it has to.

Pauli Kulikowska (27:32)

it has to, the universe responds to our energy. Of course, according to our karma and all that stuff, know, but, ⁓ you know, ⁓ some spiritual teachers that even say that, ⁓ even reaching or claiming that, you know, for healing energy or for God ⁓ has to mean that we have worked for it, that there is like ⁓ a container of good deeds, yes, of…

Pauli Kulikowska (28:00)

certain level of consciousness that we have accumulated that is elevating us. And we can use this energy to elevate further ⁓ with evolution. Because this is the path of evolution, basically, you know, realizing that the healing… You’re asking me very difficult questions, you know. ⁓ There is no one answer for everyone, really, from my perspective.

Sam Believ (28:27)

Well, that’s a compliment because, you know, that’s for your evolution, Polly. Difficult questions make you think. Well, let’s talk about something simpler. So you are a psychologist by trade. You went to university. what is, you know, how do plant medicines compliment

Pauli Kulikowska (28:39)

⁓ Thank you.

Sam Believ (28:57)

psychotherapy work and vice versa. What’s what is your opinion on that?

Pauli Kulikowska (29:02)

⁓ Okay, so I started to study psychology after my encounter with medicine. ⁓ my me studying psychology and being interested in this subject or understanding that this is my area of natural expertise, because I understand systems easily and the mind is easy for me to understand in a way, you know, the patterns that people have ⁓ has come has come through also through medicine work. I mean, it didn’t come on during the ceremony, but it came through after.

Pauli Kulikowska (29:32)

after. ⁓ My understanding, the moment when I was making the decision to go to study psychology and become a psychologist as well, was that there are a lot of people who claim, you know, they know they want to be therapists and stuff, but they don’t have actual background, ⁓ like background which is settled in science, ⁓ in studies, ⁓ which would mean that for people from

Pauli Kulikowska (30:02)

who come with this skeptical mind, ⁓ they wouldn’t come ⁓ to me potentially, even though I would be potentially a good person for them to work with, you know what I mean. ⁓ And this was my motivation, to open up doors for people who are more skeptical. I loved my psychological studies, I loved my university.

Pauli Kulikowska (30:25)

⁓ has allowed me, of course as a master thesis I wanted to ask, ⁓ write about plant medicine but it was not legal so I couldn’t do like an official study and stuff like this. So finally I wrote about ⁓ the influence of Kundalini Yoga on our nervous system and the sense of happiness and self-efficacy and all that stuff I was measuring with my thesis. ⁓

Pauli Kulikowska (30:53)

Psychology nowadays is different than it was even 10 years ago. It’s developing so fast with neurobiology, with psychiatry, it’s changing, ⁓ this, as you mentioned, integration, psychedelic integration, how it has come into place. More and more ⁓ psychological schools are introducing actually integrations ⁓ into their work.

Pauli Kulikowska (31:19)

⁓ worldwide, you know, and I believe it is ⁓ a growing wave nowadays and it will be growing still because we need that, we need that, we need that connection which is settled with understanding how the mind works in like, you know, with the science study, you know, ⁓ the illnesses ⁓ or ⁓ the problems that people might have with their psyche, right?

Pauli Kulikowska (31:45)

⁓ how it connects with ⁓ psychedelics. There are a lot of studies and I think Mines Institute is doing like a tremendous work ⁓ in this way, you know, ⁓ how they are measuring ⁓ all that stuff, how mushrooms, I think that this is the biggest area of their expertise, but I think they also explore ketamine and ayahuasca as well, right? ⁓ So ⁓ I feel my… ⁓

Pauli Kulikowska (32:13)

understanding is that it will be growing, it will be growing, it’s already integrating, it’s getting integrated into ⁓ psychology. Mainstream, maybe not mainstream yet, but it’s becoming mainstream.

Sam Believ (32:29)

So yeah, I think I was more looking into, you know, if somebody does plant medicines, how it opens them up and then, you know, with a good therapy, they can kind of get results faster. And then I think the analogy that I like to use is if healing process is digging a tunnel, then ayahuasca is like a dynamite and integration work is like

Sam Believ (32:57)

picks and shovels so they’re more precise and you can make an explosion, remove, make another explosion, remove again and kind of like this. as opposed to, let’s say those people that you described that just keep drinking and keep coming back, that’s just like explosion on top of the explosion. can like, your tunnel can collapse eventually or it will be just very messy. yeah. Okay, can you talk about that? know,

Pauli Kulikowska (33:19)

It will collapse.

Sam Believ (33:27)

what is the best way for someone to integrate.

Pauli Kulikowska (33:33)

⁓ Again, there is no one path for everyone. Some people will integrate better through mental work and other people will integrate better through body work. ⁓ Anyway, ⁓ in both cases, I think in both cases, both approaches are very needed. ⁓ both psychotherapy, psychedelic integration, searching circles after, you know.

Pauli Kulikowska (33:59)

monitoring the people after ceremonies and you know being in touch actually being in relationship with people who come to your ceremonies or relation rather right to our ceremonies. This is one thing but then the other thing from my perspective is very important breathwork. Breathwork is tremendous way to integrate and ⁓ it is based on also yogic science and ⁓ what I’ve been taught on teacher trainings also you know on ⁓ yoga.

Pauli Kulikowska (34:28)

⁓ and meditation courses that ⁓ pranayama as the breath extension, it is changing the energetics of the body and if the plant medicines are getting us out of the density of our minds and are opening certain paths, right, whether spiritual or within our psyche, it’s impossible to stay on that level of awareness. It’s like opening, exploring, you know, or as you said, putting a bomb.

Pauli Kulikowska (34:57)

something, something and it’s just basically constant, very radical, very radical and not necessarily healthy ⁓ way of working. ⁓ from my perspective, ⁓ breathwork, pranayama correctly facilitated and performed regular practice of pranayama helps to integrate the work that medicine does as well.

Pauli Kulikowska (35:23)

So this is ⁓ something ⁓ I’m not sure if many people talk about it. I haven’t heard many people talking about it. mean, there is this psychedelic breath and stuff and shamanic breath and holotropic breathing, but ⁓ it’s not really about that. It doesn’t have to be that radical. From my perspective, the pranayama ⁓ or the practice ⁓ of the breath retention, ⁓ it can be very gentle, but it has to be regular. ⁓

Pauli Kulikowska (35:52)

whole point of it. It has to be regular because this is how our neural connections change. So we need discipline. We need discipline to integrate the work.

Sam Believ (36:03)

Is there any chance you could give a tiny little preview into what it means to people that listen? Is there any exercise they can do right now to feel that feeling?

Pauli Kulikowska (36:14)

⁓ I cannot give the exercise because I don’t know the ⁓ physiological state of people who are listening, you know, and that will be irresponsible. ⁓ I would love to, I would love to, but I can’t. ⁓ The one pranayama that is safe for everyone, for everyone, and everyone can do it, is called Nadi Shodhana and it’s balancing the hemispheres. ⁓ And we do it first in stages, so the first stage is safe for everyone.

Sam Believ (36:27)

Okay.

Pauli Kulikowska (36:43)

no matter which condition, whether you’re pregnant, old, young, whatever, ⁓ we divide it into five parts. So five seconds, inhale, five seconds, stop, five seconds, exhale, and we exchange the nostrils. So we start with the left nostril, inhale. Four, five, stop for five. Two, three, four, five, exhale through the right. ⁓ One, two, three, four, five, inhale through the right.

Pauli Kulikowska (37:12)

One, two, three, four, five, stop. One, two, three, four, five, exhale through the left. One, two, three, four, five. And this is one round. Two sides is one round, right? And we do 20 rounds of this daily. And it takes around, I don’t know, maybe five minutes.

Sam Believ (37:31)

Okay, let me clarify for people who are listening. So you put your hand on your nose and at first you close your left nostril and you inhale for five seconds, you hold for five seconds, you exhale for five seconds, you hold for five seconds, change nostrils, inhale for five seconds, hold for five seconds, exhale five seconds, hold five seconds and you alternate so.

Pauli Kulikowska (37:36)

Thank

Sam Believ (38:00)

basically 20 times each nostril or 40 times.

Pauli Kulikowska (38:05)

It makes total 40. Total is 40. But I want to clarify. Yes, but I want to clarify because you said hold after exhale. After exhale, you don’t hold. This is like another stage of this pranayama. But I’m talking about the first stage, which is safe for everyone and which will give results to people. But you need to practice it for six, like really three to six months to start notice how your body is adapting to the… ⁓

Sam Believ (38:08)

So 40 times each nostril.

Sam Believ (38:23)

Okay.

Pauli Kulikowska (38:31)

cycles of nature, because this is what we’re also disconnected from, right? From circadian cycle, from ⁓ interadian cycle, ⁓ from ⁓ the menstrual cycles, you know, this is something I can talk about also as well, know, as a woman who was disconnected from it.

Sam Believ (38:47)

I’m really, really disconnected from that one.

Pauli Kulikowska (38:50)

⁓ Well, I feel sorry for you. It’s really cool experience. ⁓

Sam Believ (38:58)

No, but I do do notice that us men we also have some kind of monthly cycle which There’s no nothing physical happening, but definitely emotionally there. There’s something we all have cycles. We just maybe not aware of them So yeah guys try to try this exercise Obviously not not while you’re working or while you’re driving. Just make sure you’re safe because always breathing exercises There’s always a risk that you might

Pauli Kulikowska (39:11)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (39:25)

You know get lightheaded or faint and stuff like that. So don’t do it if you’re standing on the edge of a cliff Can you Yeah, can you talk to us about what is energy business coaching?

Pauli Kulikowska (39:33)

I wouldn’t have this idea.

Pauli Kulikowska (39:40)

⁓ this is something that we are opening up next year. This is the program I’ve been working on for two years. And we already had some ⁓ people who went through the pilot, ⁓ like a pilot ⁓ program. And this is the program which actually integrates the principles of ethical co-creating within community giving back, also giving back. This is very important part of it.

Pauli Kulikowska (40:05)

But ⁓ we’re also integrating tools like constellations for development of leadership ⁓ for people who are or want to be in leadership positions. So this is the programme that we as Institute will be offering to our people or ⁓ other companies.

Pauli Kulikowska (40:30)

who are open to kind of change their structure or people who are starting their businesses. We worked with both with people who are in corporate environments, with people who are starting their businesses and with ⁓ the team ⁓ of the company. And like the results are amazing because the thing is that when we align correctly, you know, ⁓ our self and our businesses and our relationships and find our role within the system that we’re working with ⁓ or in.

Pauli Kulikowska (40:59)

⁓ The nature is responding and also is supporting those people more financially in the means of abundance. This is coming, you know, ⁓ so it’s using ⁓ all those tools and techniques we’ve been learning and exploring throughout the years.

Sam Believ (41:17)

Cool, I do agree with that that businesses also need more energetic alignment and I really like the topic of conscious entrepreneurship. However, I think most businesses or business owners are not really there yet to start seeing things this way. we have you noticed any…

Sam Believ (41:42)

What is the interest? is like of interest like people like energy? Like what are you? What are you talking about? Like let’s talk about bottom line, you know profits and stuff like that or or maybe that’s my misconception.

Pauli Kulikowska (41:55)

⁓ But you know what, ⁓ I agree with you that for the most part people are not there yet. But when I started my work, in general, doing my work ⁓ and offering the service and stuff, there wasn’t a lot of interest at all. There weren’t many people who are doing that. And now look at this, everyone ⁓ is a healer, know, ⁓ basically, know, in the means of how they’re portraying yourself. So this is…

Pauli Kulikowska (42:22)

This is also, unfortunately, from my perspective, unfortunately, a huge business. ⁓ But a fact is that the business, as you said, needs this conscious touch. And there aren’t many people, many companies interested, but there are more and more because it’s connected with CSR. ⁓ And that’s a good way within the consciousness of companies and people, know, that people are having and developing this understanding of social responsibility. ⁓

Pauli Kulikowska (42:50)

And this is something that we are aiming towards ⁓ within the social developing social responsibility that this is the service that we’re offering ⁓ in response to that.

Sam Believ (43:03)

We had once an Alaska retreat where we had the board of directors of a company and they were five of them they came for a private retreat and it was really really interesting. They got a lot from it. I can imagine if we could get big companies to start making you know one retreat a year it could make a lot give a lot to them and also to sort of group cohesion.

Sam Believ (43:34)

If they’re to make sure they’re all in the same path as you know psychedelics Also, it’s not just about healing. It’s also there’s there’s a big boost in creativity that happens through them I know you like topic of self-love. Can you Tell us how the how does one love themselves?

Pauli Kulikowska (43:46)

Exactly.

Pauli Kulikowska (44:00)

That’s a very good question. Through awareness, through self-awareness. We love ourselves through self-awareness. This is the only path from my perspective. We can have all these tools, know, like hop-on-op-on, tapping, EFT, know, trauma release exercises, yoga, bodywork, even tantra and all this stuff.

Pauli Kulikowska (44:25)

but it’s nothing without awareness, without self-awareness. ⁓ Because all those tools are just tools at the end for developing self-awareness. If we are aware of who we are, there is ⁓ not a possibility of not loving ourselves because this is our essence. And this is what we are aiming to connect to back.

Pauli Kulikowska (44:53)

It’s not like an activity really. ⁓ Loving ourselves is not an activity. It’s a developing self-awareness of who we are.

Sam Believ (45:05)

and what’s the best way to develop the self-awareness.

Pauli Kulikowska (45:10)

Again, we’re coming back. is no one way. There is no one way. there is, again, I’m coming back. Practice is needed. ⁓ Practice is needed. We’ve been conditioned. We’ve been conditioned so long for, you know, through generations and we carry generational trauma ⁓ and the information about ⁓ difficult stuff that happens to our ancestors as well, you know, in the lines that where we were born in, this families, in these lifetimes.

Sam Believ (45:19)

Mm-hmm.

Pauli Kulikowska (45:38)

and all these needs to be released. So we need practice. We need practice, we need tools, we need plant medicine from my perspective. It’s not for everyone, again, not for everyone and not at ⁓ every moment of their lives for sure. ⁓ I feel, ⁓ especially when it comes to plant medicines and using them as a tool for developing self-awareness and self-love, ⁓ I feel one has to have a really a calling to do it.

Pauli Kulikowska (46:08)

because I had experiences where people came to me, especially in the beginning, now I’m working differently, but in the beginning of my work when people were coming to my ceremonies out of curiosity, what is this, I’ll ask, you what is this thing? ⁓ And ⁓ she didn’t work. She didn’t work. Because the intelligence of the plant medicine is so tremendous that she won’t, from my perspective, she won’t allow the… ⁓

Pauli Kulikowska (46:37)

misuse in the long run, know, or ⁓ not having the right mindset or the right intention. ⁓ The other thing is that she could potentially work or someone can get, you know, some slaps for and have very difficult experience, you know, when they are not really ⁓ approaching it with respect. And I feel this is the responsibility of facilitators to actually implement more respect to medicine before ⁓ serving.

Pauli Kulikowska (47:07)

before serving the medicine.

Sam Believ (47:11)

Yeah, agree with that. The beauty of the medicine is that it is self It has its own sort of mind and we do notice that we have We have four day retreats one week retreats 11 day retreats and 18 day retreats and people who come for four days Generally, they tend to be people Not all of them, but there’s always more people in those smaller groups shorter retreats where they just want to sort of

Sam Believ (47:41)

Cross that off their bucket list, you know this ayahuasca thing and they come for curiosity But because we create a container where it’s like our you know, as you know ayahuasca is Can be used for healing it can also be used for growth or spiritual spiritual exploration. There’s just so much That you can do with it We our container is set focusing on healing specifically and then because let’s say majority of the group are Coming for this reason to heal

Pauli Kulikowska (47:43)

Mm.

Sam Believ (48:10)

Then it kind of makes them thinking and they start setting intentions and kind of realizing, yeah, maybe there is through group sharing, they kind of realized that, there is something I could work on as well. So they then get this intention when they come to the ceremony, they understand it and then they maybe not that it doesn’t work, but they see something, but maybe don’t get to completion. And then they come, a lot of people come back for one week and they’re like, yeah, now I know what it is because

Sam Believ (48:39)

I think it’s really hard to imagine, let’s say, if from Eastern Europe as well, know, majority of people in Eastern Europe are pretty very disconnected from spirituality. mean, there’s some religion still left, but it’s mostly just a thing. It’s not like a real spiritual practice. And I don’t really see, for example, my dad, I don’t really see him all of a sudden sitting down and starting to meditate.

Sam Believ (49:08)

that seems like absolute impossibility for me. However, I feel that if I could somehow get him to drink some ayahuasca, there may be this opening where he’s like, you know, because it happened to me, I was never the spiritual guy, never, I could never become one. It’s just all of a sudden I got this curiosity about ayahuasca, this calling, and eventually I did it, and eventually it opened me up to now I also.

Sam Believ (49:36)

I’m learning about the entrant. I’m learning about this and that I’m a little bit afraid, you know, I’m becoming a hippie but but in a good way so it’s like I think one of the things plant medicine can do is that big explosion this big opening and I think majority of people are so far disconnected right now that they need something like that. So yeah, this is my mission. Obviously, I do think I was is for everyone.

Pauli Kulikowska (49:42)

you

Sam Believ (50:06)

least once in their life, obviously, unless you’re very sick. But after that followed with a lot of integration and a lot of meditation and a lot of other good things like journaling and psychotherapy. So I think there is a way somewhere in between those three worlds, which is Western psychology, Eastern tradition and Amazonian traditions, where there’s this absolutely perfect healing that works for everyone.

Sam Believ (50:36)

I know you don’t like that approach here, but I do think there’s at least a general direction we can figure out. Have you been able to see some parallels between work you did with Ayahuasca and some of the Eastern spirituality knowledge? Obviously you’re in India right now.

Pauli Kulikowska (50:56)

Yes, can I answer that question? I just wanted to refer to what you said about your father, because this is exactly ⁓ the case with me and my father. I was trying to convince him and once it almost happened, he was even dieting to prepare for ⁓ the ceremony, but at the last moment he chickened out and he didn’t go, so mission failed. ⁓ But again, coming back, now… ⁓

Pauli Kulikowska (51:22)

Why I’m saying it’s not for everyone? Because not everyone has this karma or will. ⁓ Not everyone wants to grow or develop or change anything in their lives. That’s why I’m saying that also. ⁓ So it potentially is for everyone. I agree with you. It is potentially for everyone, but not everyone is open or ready for it. So this is ⁓ one thing. And when it comes to parallels, ⁓ I see actually a lot.

Pauli Kulikowska (51:48)

a lot. That’s why the vision of the Institute is the way it is at the moment. ⁓ And when we study how people were migrating and what was the story of humanity and how all the traditions were kind of intertwining with each other, the paths were, they were all influencing each other. Like, for example, Polish language, it’s like an ⁓ Indo-European language. It’s not coming from

Pauli Kulikowska (52:18)

⁓ from like, I forgot the name of this language. The most languages now come from it, ⁓ like French, Spanish, Italian, come from ⁓ Latin, Latin. Sorry, I forgot for a moment. For Latin. So Polish is not coming from Latin, right? It’s not also connected with German or with English, but it is connected with Indian.

Sam Believ (52:32)

moments.

Pauli Kulikowska (52:44)

with India, with Sanskrit and with Hindu language. ⁓ you know, we all had these influences that we… ⁓ So, ⁓ my observation is that, first of all, every tradition is talking about the same thing in a different way, depending on the context, depending on the context and the culture, it is a little bit different. ⁓ What I love about India and Indian traditions and, you know, ⁓ the…

Pauli Kulikowska (53:13)

is that in this land, the tradition was kept very strongly. It’s like with indigenous cultures, know. ⁓ But it was a little bit more, I would say, elevated because it was like a huge country, India always was a huge country, ⁓ which ⁓ was abandoned for most of the time, you know, until ⁓ Englishmen came. You know, it was very rich and abandoned country. ⁓

Pauli Kulikowska (53:41)

that there are still teachers and gurus and masters who have kept tradition which was ⁓ transmitted in a very particular way. And even now with traditional tantra and the pidam that I’m ⁓ studying at ⁓ Srividya tantra pidam in Kerala, it’s traditional path. ⁓

Pauli Kulikowska (54:06)

taken out of the context, know, that someone has suddenly created something out of nowhere. ⁓ And this is the difference that I ⁓ see in that way. But on the other hand, the tradition, for example, in Colombia that I approached in Putumayo Valley, the shaman that I was studying with was the shaman whose father was a shaman, whose grandfather was a shaman, and the tradition was also kept in the same way. So this is the…

Pauli Kulikowska (54:35)

⁓ the first similarity that I’m seeing. The second thing that I’m seeing is like the ritualistic approach, the ritualistic approach ⁓ to reality in general, know, the relationship with elements, the relationships with spirits of the nature, the relationships, which are called devatas here, right? So ⁓ it’s all the same, it’s all the same, but it’s just called in a different way, you know, and ⁓ everyone is ⁓ drawn to explore.

Pauli Kulikowska (55:05)

their spirituality or develop, ⁓ as you said, become a hippie, which I don’t fully believe, but like, let’s say it in a good way, you know, ⁓ kind of de-attach ourselves from a system that we are being conditioned into. So now we’re hippies, right? Because we said we don’t want to live like this. ⁓ And exploring, you when we feel that the path

Pauli Kulikowska (55:29)

our personal path lies in and where our karma is because this is again coming back to cause and effect the decisions that we’re making. ⁓ yeah, I see a lot of, and even in tantra, you know that in tantra, I have to say this because in tantra, in very advanced tantric techniques, ⁓ they used ritualistically plant medicines. This is the thing that the tantra is very shamanic in nature.

Pauli Kulikowska (55:58)

And it’s all here. It’s all here. This is the beauty of it. But a lot of work, this is what also I love, a lot of work in here is done without the medicine. You do develop your practice. You develop your relationship with the nature, with the spirits, the, ⁓ basically with the nature, because we’re coming back. I’m not going to develop on this because it’s a lot to talk about, but you know. So yeah, there is a huge similarity, from my perspective, huge.

Pauli Kulikowska (56:27)

bit different expression but still same same but different.

Sam Believ (56:33)

Yeah. Interesting that you mentioned languages because I’m a big fan of languages and I actually speak one language out of every Indo-European language groups, is Indo-European languages are split in Romance, which is comes from Latin, Germanic, Slavic and Baltic.

Sam Believ (57:00)

And Baltic is only two languages now, Latvian and Lithuanian. Interestingly enough, Baltic languages are the closest living languages to Sanskrit. So, for example, the word in Sanskrit for God is what? Deva? What? Dieva? And in Latvian it’s Dievs or in Lithuanian it’s Dievas. So, yeah, it’s pretty cool. Those are the closest living. So, yeah, it’s like somehow…

Pauli Kulikowska (57:15)

Devah, Devah, yeah.

Pauli Kulikowska (57:23)

Beautiful, yeah.

Sam Believ (57:29)

languages came and traditions came. also thought about it, you know, if people that populated America’s came from Asia, obviously there was their Asian Siberian type shamanism and there’s a lot of it looks very similar. They even look very similar to each other. And my shaman is also his father is a shaman. Their grandfather was a shaman. I think they can count at least six generations. So that’s really cool. We’re so happy. I mean, we’re so lucky to

Sam Believ (57:58)

have had people that preserve this tradition because obviously we completely lost ours. ⁓ yeah, we’re coming closer to an hour mark. So Pauli, thank you for this conversation. I think it was very interesting and people will find entertainment and learning in it. Where can people find more about you? Let’s say we have some Polish listeners that wanna…

Pauli Kulikowska (58:03)

Exactly.

Sam Believ (58:26)

come join you in your institute or anything else.

Pauli Kulikowska (58:30)

⁓

Pauli Kulikowska (58:33)

Thank you for inviting me. It was a pleasure. I didn’t even notice that the hour passed. was ⁓ like time flight like this. ⁓ if you’re interested, and it’s not only for Polish people because we’re open and the Institute is meant to cooperate with people from all over the world. So we’re inviting everyone and the website of Institute is healinginstitute.eu because we’re based in Europe.

Pauli Kulikowska (59:00)

at the moment and this is where the base is and we will be connecting all this to kind of hopefully ⁓ do the work that we’re here to do. This is the goal.

Sam Believ (59:17)

Thank you, Pauli. Guys, you were listening to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, we’re the hosts, I believe, and I hope you enjoyed, and I will see you in the next episode.

Pauli Kulikowska (59:18)

Thanks for this.

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with Jillian Acosta, a registered dietitian and licensed dietitian nutritionist specializing in functional medicine and the psychology of eating. Jillian is the founder of The Root Cause Method, where she helps clients achieve health and vitality by addressing trauma, often integrating ketamine therapy to transform relationships with food and emotions.

We touch upon topics including:

(00:58) Jillian’s personal journey with eating disorders and emotional eating.

(02:21) How ayahuasca revealed the root of her trauma.

(04:09) Her early ayahuasca experiences and integration challenges.

(08:45) Rebuilding her life after ayahuasca, including leaving her marriage and launching her business.

(12:59) The connection between trauma, eating disorders, and chronic illness.

(17:39) Jillian’s perspective on emotional and energetic weight.

(27:41) Guidance on processing trauma and reconnecting with the body.

(39:08) Comparing ayahuasca and ketamine as therapeutic tools.

(45:49) The gut-brain connection and its role in mental health.

(48:24) The spiritual aspect of healing and gratitude for past experiences.

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats, go to http://www.lawayra.com.

Find more about Jillian Acosta at therootcausemethod.com or on Instagram at @jillianacosta._.rd.

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:01)

Hi guys and welcome to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always with you the host Sam Belyev. Today I have an interview with Jillian Acosta. Jillian is a registered dietitian and a licensed dietitian nutritionist. She specializes in functional medicine and psychology of eating. She’s the founder of the root cause method, a nutrition private practice dedicated to guiding clients towards health and vitality through innovative approaches.

In her practice, Jillian emphasizes the importance of addressing the underlying causes of chronic illnesses, many of which she believes are deeply rooted in trauma. She collaborates with physicians who administer ketamine therapy, utilizing this tool to help clients transform their relationships with food, emotions, and themselves. Jillian, welcome to the show.

Jillian Acosta (00:48)

Thank you so much for having me.

Sam Believ (00:50)

Jillian, can you tell us a little bit about your story and what brought you to work with psychedelics?

Jillian Acosta (00:58)

Yeah, so I had been struggling with food, like an emotional relationship with food all of my life. didn’t really have a reference point of my life prior to when that pattern kind of came online. And so that was just the way that I was. It was the way that I operated. And it was really disempowering, honestly. I was constantly at war with my body, feeling like I needed to look a certain way to be worthy of love, needed to be attractive, beautiful.

all of that, but also using food in a way to kind of dilute my emotional experience and feeling really out of control when it comes to food. And again, I had no idea why, but I was deeply suffering and I, you know, it started with an emotional relationship with food and then it really kind of accelerated into a full-blown eating disorder where I was bulimic and had binge eating disorder and I checked myself into treatment when I was 22 years old.

And while that was supportive in some ways, in others it wasn’t. It was really just like behavioral modification therapy. It wasn’t really addressing what was triggering the trigger. It wasn’t accessing the root of why I was engaging in these patterns. And so it left me really seeking. It left me wanting answers for why this thing was even there in the first place. And after exhausting other options like,

past life regression and Reiki and hypnotherapy and all those beautiful modalities, but those weren’t really helping me understand or have get access to what was really perpetuating this. I heard a podcast in like 2014 about the healing potential of psychedelics for eating disorders. And like everything in my body was like, this is, this is the way, this is the way. And eventually I found myself in an ayahuasca experience in, in 2020, was

my

first experience with that medicine and repressed memories of being molested as a three-year-old, four-year-old surfaced.

And I had no recollection of that for three decades of my life. But in that experience, everything made sense. All of the reasons why I had been using food in those ways, the reasons I had not felt safe in my body, I’d found myself in situations where I was being objectified by men. Like all the world of that was, it just made sense. I understood it. And it flooded me with this incredible sense of compassion and really launched me on this path of like deep discovery and introspection.

and healing and that’s very much what I do in my work now.

Sam Believ (03:35)

Thank you, Jillian. First of all, for those who are listening and not watching on YouTube, you look great. You don’t look fat or skinny or anything. You look great. It’s interesting what you describe. I think this is a really common situation where people come to Alaska when they kind of tried everything. And I think that…

Jillian Acosta (03:48)

Thank you.

Yeah.

Sam Believ (03:59)

If it was in the other order, like Ayahuasca first and then all these modalities, then it’s great, but sometimes it’s just not enough to sort of break through all those layers. how was your, tell us more about your experience with Ayahuasca, specifically how were your ceremonies like? What did you feel? What did you not feel? then how was the integration process like?

Jillian Acosta (04:09)

Yeah.

Yeah, this is great. I I’m not going to name the name of the place I went to because I would not recommend it. This was like five years ago almost. And so I was quite naive to the psychedelic space and to reputable centers and all of the things. I was like green and I was honestly just like hungry for freedom. And this center kind of came into my awareness. I knew one person that went and I went and it was huge, huge ceremony.

lot of energy and the structure of it was like a ceremony on Friday night, another one Saturday morning and another one Saturday evening. And so it was quite intense. And my first one was…

challenging in the sense that it was overwhelming energetically and I didn’t actually fully surrender or drop into the experience. Of course I was in an altered state, but I was overwhelmed. But then the second one was during the day and it was in a forest and that’s really when I was able to let go, when I drank a little bit more medicine. It was a profound experience, super positive as Ayahuasca being incredibly intelligent. It allowed me to begin to trust her and her spirit and let go

a bit and showed me so many valuable things, but then towards the end of that experience, it got quite challenging. It got really, really challenging. I was incredibly nauseous. Honestly, what happened was that it was in a forest and towards the end of that ceremony, I flipped over. was on my back and I flipped over on my belly and I was laying in the grass in my belly just like I used to when I was a little girl.

I would lay in the grass for hours in the summers and just dissociate, I now know. And it’s almost as if like when I turned over and laid on my belly, it was like all of the memories that the earth was holding for me in the grass where I left it was like waiting for me.

like it was waiting for me in the same place. And so as I flipped over, I literally experienced the feeling of like flipping and falling down a rabbit hole like Alice in Wonderland style. And I grew incredibly nauseous. Like my throat started closing, I started sweating. It was really uncomfortable. And then the gong rang indicating that it was like the ceremony was over. And so it was like, I was about to probably access some really challenging material, but because ceremony ended, I then had to kind of like sit in that

nausea for hours. And of course my ego was like trying to discourage me from drinking again that evening just a few hours later. But I did. And that was the ceremony, that third ceremony that same day was when really everything was revealed to me about what I had lived through and…

You know, the medicine is so profound, so profoundly intelligent that I was not being re-traumatized, even though it was like really challenging information that I was being shown. I was not having to like relive the events in a traumatic way. It was uncomfortable and it was bizarre, but I was just receiving and it was like showing me this for my greatest good. Now, the second part of your question was like, what was integration? Like at that time in my life, I was in a relationship, I was in a marriage which was totally

totally

misaligned. We had no business being together at all. I did not feel like I was emotionally supported whatsoever. And so I didn’t even tell my partner at the time. I didn’t share anything with anyone. I just kind of held it. And it was so confronting that my ego was just like, it put it in a box. It was like, okay, that’s gone. Like, I’m just going to carry on with my life now. And

I started to really struggle with food. I started to feel this impulse of eating emotionally again. And that’s my indication that there’s something I’m not willing to feel.

I got, I ended up getting divorced like three months later after, because ayahuasca makes it really hard for you to lie to yourself. Like that’s one of the beautiful things about it. It just like really confronts you with the truth. And my truth was like, I was not happy in this marriage. And so I left that marriage and I launched my business in the same month and totally jumped off a cliff and

In that time, I started to waver with food and I felt a call to sit with the medicine again. So I sat in a different ayahuasca experience, like maybe six months later, and everything that I had not wanted to confront before.

like came flying out of Pandora’s box. And it was, that was a very, very challenging experience. And in that ceremony, I was deeply supported. And that’s where I met my teacher and worked with him consistently for like multiple months, basically living in the same space and just living, breathing, practicing every day of clearing this energy and making my way back into my own heart. And

creating safety in myself. It was just a total ego disillusion of everything that I thought that I knew of myself and others and a beautiful place to recreate my life. went into solitude for two years after that experience and just really deconstructed myself as I knew it and created this version that I have been, that I am now.

Sam Believ (09:56)

Thank you for sharing that. There’s a few things I immediately disagree with that first retreat you went to, and two ceremonies in one day, that sounds very intense, including kind of abruptly ending the ceremony in that way, I think is also a little bit unprofessional, but it’s interesting with ayahuasca, even sometimes even bad ayahuasca experiences can lead to good things eventually. It’s like in the end of a day,

Jillian Acosta (10:07)

It’s not advised.

Sam Believ (10:25)

It is really important with the shaman is where the medicine comes from, where you do it, how you do it, how you prepare yourself. But sometimes enough will come through even when like a terrible ceremony that eventually put you on the right path. This is kind of beauty of self-guiding with this medicine. So, it’s so you, you went through this experience yourself and obviously not only you recovered, but now you help other people with,

with recovery and it’s kind of like the typical wounded healer situation where you have a problem yourself, you sort of solve it or at least you’re a few steps ahead and you start bringing other people with you. Tell us about that transition, know, how, when were you, when have you felt ready to help others? How did you start and yeah, what is that experience like?

Jillian Acosta (11:21)

It’s interesting.

I’ve really been like fascinated and borderline obsessed with my own expansion and personal development really since I was 16. I was in like personal development curriculum and courses and seminars and things. And I really got bit by the bug of like service when I, when I finished treatment and I went back, I would go back every Saturday morning as an alumni and share what I was learning with like the new patients and their families. And when I realized that like the things that I was like the dots

that

I was connecting in my own process, if I shared that with other people, it was really beneficial and impactful for them. And so it gave me this sense of purpose, this sense of service that was really fulfilling.

And so I started coaching at a young age, like my early 20s, even like, even when I was still struggling with food, I was still coaching people. And, you know, I pursued the field of nutrition academically because I, at the time I was still in an eating disorder and really wanted to learn how to like hack the system. I wanted to learn how to get as thin as possible so that I could be hot and happy and all the bullshit that were fed.

But I ended up falling in love with the science and the field of it. And so I’d already gotten my degree, my license. And I named my business The Root Cause Method because I really believe that the root cause of chronic illness is trauma. I believe that eating disorders, obesity, chronic illness, addiction, et cetera, all like trauma is at the root of all of that. It’s just like how it manifests is nuanced from person to person. And so I became fascinated by this concept of like, if we could heal the trauma, then we

can heal the physiology. It’s not about putting people on a rigid diet. It’s about actually addressing the underlying thing, wound, that has them drowning their pain in a gallon of ice cream. It’s not the ice cream. You know what I mean? It’s what’s driving those patterns. And so it’s this really interesting blend of all that I gained academically, all that I gained from a coaching and development standpoint, and all the deep spiritual and energetic work that I’ve been

deeply steeped in that I kind of blend together and and watch transformation happen like every day which is just fucking amazing and then of course with the tools and the application of psychedelics it’s it’s the biggest it’s one of the greatest tools it helps us you know directly access the wounds that are buried in the subconscious mind and and that’s where 95 % of our behavior is driven so it makes sense to me that we access that if we really want to help people transform

Sam Believ (13:58)

Yeah, I agree with you. I love what Gabo Ramate says is don’t look for the substance, look for the pain. Same as in other words, what you say, all addiction comes from trauma. So it’s like, what is that pain inside you that can get you eventually we can get addicted to anything from work to to porn to alcohol, food, you name it, good things, bad things, everything can be.

Jillian Acosta (14:08)

Happy.

All of it.

Sam Believ (14:26)

Overused I’ve never seen anyone addicted to ayahuasca, but I’m sure I’m sure people can figure it out but So yeah, this is this is really true and I think especially with food because it’s it’s considered something You know, it’s good for you. You need food. So it’s like there’s nothing wrong with it And especially in US right now there’s there’s a lot of there’s that pain addict

Jillian Acosta (14:27)

Yeah, we’re creative.

Yeah.

Sam Believ (14:53)

pain aspect of addiction, but there’s also this manipulative aspect with, you know, big industry just making everything so extra tasty. And there’s relationship with food, I think is in a pretty poor condition. So I can imagine you have lots of clients because there’s, it’s a very necessary thing to do. So what have you noticed with, you know, in work with clients relationship with food, what kind of, what kind of conditions are most common? it

Jillian Acosta (15:02)

Of course.

Sam Believ (15:23)

anorexia or bulimia, your own experience, what have you dealt with? Talk to us more about that.

Jillian Acosta (15:31)

Yeah, I mean,

I personally was dealing with bulimia and binge eating disorder, but I would say binge eating disorder was like the fundamental kind of through line through the peaks and valleys of like restrictive or excessive or purging rather. But the truth is I don’t actually work with people that are dealing with acute eating disorders. Like if someone is anorexic or actively engaging in bulimia nervosa, like I don’t believe that I’m the best person for them. They need to stabilize. They need to get support.

and

more stability, but when they are actually ready for recovery, when they’re ready for something more, they’re a woman.

It’s like there what I look for in a client whomever I take on is like a desire for liberation a desire to be free in general but also of this pattern that has been so disempowering and so the majority of the people that I work with have What I call like a dysfunctional or a disordered relationship with food. They don’t necessarily have a diagnosis of an eating disorder so that could look like

you know, feeling out of control with food or eating past the point of fullness, eating till you’re physically uncomfortable or ill, you know, eating like large quantities of food in a really short period of time or, you know, like entering into a space of like self loathing after, after eating, like beating yourself up about it. Like that’s all emotional. And so my clients, regardless of what their, their physiology looks like, whether they’re thin or carrying a little bit of excess weight or carrying a lot of excess weight, there’s an emotional relationship.

with food that’s present in all of my clients that they’re really wanting freedom from.

And honestly, my perspective and like, I’m in an interesting place in my work because it’s starting to transition. I’m really like, it’s been about emotional eating because I’m a dietician and all the things, but what I’m really doing is like reconnecting a person back to themselves, to their body, to their intuition, to the truth of who they are using like food and, and weight and emotional eating as like the doorway, just because that was my story. But you know, it’s so much deeper than that. And I’m here to impact a lot of people, regardless of their expression. Like some people may use alcohol.

And people may, you know, jump from like toxic relationship to toxic relationship. Like whatever their thing is, I’m in the business of like reclaiming power and freedom. And so, yeah, that’s what I do.

Sam Believ (17:54)

Yeah, so

in that case, eating disorders or overeating, under eating, whatever it is, is just a symptom, right? So alcoholism could be another symptom. So if you’re going to root cause that makes total sense that you kind of look into all of them. I’ll tell you a story. And obviously it’s here. We don’t really choose.

Jillian Acosta (18:03)

Exactly.

Sam Believ (18:19)

We can’t really choose who comes and who doesn’t come. Obviously there are sometimes people who come to Loire that are in a pretty difficult conditions and we still receive them, work with them cautiously. But we had one girl about four or five months ago, her name is Justina and I can share it because she left us a testimonial and she’s coming back now as a volunteer. But she was anorexic, she was extremely skinny.

very skinny. think she also likes to listen to our podcast. So Justine, if you’re listening. And she obviously she’s done a lot of work herself to regain some of the weight. She was able to function and she was not as bad as on the photos she showed me, but she worked with that was cause she did 18 day retreat, very deep dive. She had challenging processes and

she left it was still challenging integration was very difficult however as i believe now she gained 10 kilos because she said she really wanted to come back as a volunteer and i said well if you gain five kilos you can come back and volunteer so she gained 10 and it’s pretty impressive like of course in the end of the day you yourself do all the work but ayahuasca and other psychedelics they can open that that door for you

Jillian Acosta (19:38)

Absolutely.

Sam Believ (19:41)

And it’s interesting, in your case, you found that the core was the abuse. And a lot of people account to the retreat as well, discover some traumas. What would you tell someone that, because I hear this a lot when people say, I’m afraid to do ayahuasca because I’m afraid I’m going to come up with some trauma.

Jillian Acosta (20:06)

Well, they will. But in my perspective, ignorance is not bliss.

In my perspective, ignorance is miserable. It’s numbness, it’s dissociation, it’s sleepwalking. It’s not blissful. And so whether or not you can directly confront your trauma, you’re still living in the swell of it. It’s still affecting your psyche every moment. It’s still affecting your nervous system and your physiology and the way that you can relate to others and your sexual expression and all of the things. You’re still bathing in.

the energy of the trauma you’re afraid of discovering.

And so, you know, I have compassion and give grace to the people that are willing to look. In fact, it’s something that I bow to. think it’s the most respectable, admirable thing a human being can do is look at their shadow, look at their, look at their pain, feel their pain. And so I get it that it’s confronting and scary. I’ve lived that, but I can tell you as someone who has faced that it’s the most liberating thing in the world. I’m so grateful to have learned this about myself because

this was the cage I was living in. I’m no longer living in it because I was able to move through it and and I…

You know, I don’t serve medicine. work with ketamine in my practice, but I don’t serve. I’ve never been invited by medicine, mushrooms, ayahuasca, nothing to serve it. So I don’t, take that. I have reverence and a lot of respect for the people that do that. My gifts are in the world of integration. I take integration extremely seriously because I believe that, you know, medicine illuminates things. It opens boxes, it shows you, but it’s like, what are you going to do with those findings? Are you going to just view them as like kind of a cool experience?

that you learned a lot of things and then go back to your cubicle and work in a job that you hate and be in a relationship where you’re unfulfilled, or you can actually do something about it. And I get lit up about like…

let’s do something about it. Let’s weave these things into the tapestry of your life and create, literally create a new emotional, psychological, spiritual, physical infrastructure. And because I’ve been able to do that myself, I have what we call the code. I have codes for that and I help people recreate their relationship with themselves, which really impacts every other facet of their lives.

Sam Believ (22:38)

So let’s say somebody who’s listening right now, as you describe those patterns for which you have codes, what should they do? What would be the good start and how should one, let’s say, heal from those kinds of issues?

Jillian Acosta (23:06)

So you’re you’re suggesting, you’re saying that like if someone sits with ayahuasca and learns that they were sexually abused, you’re saying, for example.

Sam Believ (23:13)

No, I’m sorry, I’m going back to the eating disorder topic. But sexual abuse as well. No, I mean, yeah, let’s do it this way. First, tell us what to do integration wise if you’ve been at an iOS retreat and you discovered sexual abuse. And then we’ll go back to the other question.

Jillian Acosta (23:32)

Yeah, I’d say find a trusted ally, whether it’s a coach or a therapist or somatic experience, you know, practitioner, find an ally teacher of some modality that resonates with you and don’t do it alone. Don’t do it alone. It’s a lot for the psyche. It’s a lot for the system. To be supported by somebody is, I believe, essential, at least in the beginning. You know, I worked with someone for consistently for four months rigorously.

And then I was able to like feel strong enough to integrate the teachings on my own and begin to like really practice what I was taught and build my own strong foundation and kind of prevent myself from depending on a teacher. But in the beginning, I let myself be held by them fully, fully, which was really, really incredibly supportive. And so that’s kind of that first step. And then, you know,

Sam Believ (24:27)

One more

question about that. What I notice a lot is people generally tend to doubt the reality of that information. It’s kind of like, you know, this first step denial.

Jillian Acosta (24:42)

Yeah, I went through that.

Sam Believ (24:44)

Do you have anything, any guidance on that or any advice?

Jillian Acosta (24:49)

What I now understand what was happening was that, you know, this egoic part of me could not, like did not want to accept that this was the reality. It was like fighting against what I had just learned because it was so confronting to all of the identity structures that I had created, all that I knew. And so it was really,

challenging me in terms of like surrendering to the truth that I was just told. And I had a, actually I didn’t have a therapist at that time. I didn’t have anyone at that time. I was in a marriage like I described, I didn’t have any support, so I told no one. And the first thing that I would do now is find support.

and just tell somebody trusted, you know, that this is what came up and I’m having a really, and I don’t know if it’s true, like that, you know, that ego is like, I didn’t want to believe it. I was in resistance to it. So just share what that, that part, like, this is what came up. I’m not sure. And, and hopefully the therapist or the coach or whomever is like qualified enough that they don’t have tried to tell you yes or no. They just kind of let you be with.

both possibilities and start to create safety for yourself in entertaining them.

Sam Believ (26:10)

Yeah, this is very useful and I remember this sort of little video or something I watched where I Think it can be useful in this case But some people when they find out something has been done to them their first intention is like, know vengeance or Finding, know how to pay back and this kind of direction or at least or like finding why has it been done to them? There’s this story where somebody is bitten by the snake

And instead of like running to the hospital, they’re trying to find a snake and like talk to it. It’s like, that’s, that’s not the point. So if you’re going through that, don’t, don’t focus on that direction. Just focus on yourself. doesn’t, you don’t need somebody to ask for forgiveness to forgive them. and, back to the original question, if somebody. Sure.

Jillian Acosta (26:50)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Actually, there’s something I would love to add real quick that’s just

coming through about this is like, hear a lot of people like, something came up in medicine, but I’m not really sure. And I wonder if I’m making this up. Like, I wonder if I’m fabricating it. And I hear that a lot. And my, my invitation for those people where there is like uncertainty is like,

You know, the ego wants the story. The ego wants the detail so it can analyze it and it can like, you know, have certainty and all those kinds of things. But like, that’s not actually what’s important in that first stage. What’s really important is that like the body knows, like the body keeps the score, the body, the body knows. And so like working towards reconnecting with the body and allowing the body to speak.

you know, allowing the body to inform because I wasn’t shown like all the details of every time I had experienced that as a child. And I now know that I was being protected. I wasn’t being re-traumatized. That was really loving of the medicine. But as I strengthened my capacity to hold the truth of what I had learned, I started receiving more in dream space, in other medicine spaces, like way more vivid memory that was confronting and uncomfortable.

And so as I got stronger in my capacity to hold what I was being shown, then I was shown more. And it just became like irrefutable. And there’s not a shadow of a doubt that that’s what I experienced now. But I hear a lot of people in the beginning like, I don’t know. I wonder if I’m making this up. People don’t make this up. People don’t make this stuff. This is not something you fabricate unless there’s like a mental condition, you know, like. But generally speaking, the level of pervade pervasiveness of this condition is it’s rampant.

And so if there was, if there’s a suspicion or there’s a memory that came through in a medicine ceremony, at least give it, like honor it as a possibility and let the body open and inform you as you progress on your journey.

Sam Believ (28:57)

Yeah, it is a very scary thing to discover trauma, but it still is a gift, a scary gift, but still a gift. So for those who are afraid to find the trauma, if you don’t find it, great. If you find it even better. So now going back to the original question, if somebody who’s listening is dealing with some sort of eating disorder, what should they do? What are the easy first steps? What are the

Jillian Acosta (29:05)

Totally.

Sam Believ (29:27)

recommendations from you who knows more about that.

Jillian Acosta (29:32)

I mean, easy? It’s a complex journey. Food is an interesting, like you mentioned earlier in the conversation, it’s not like alcohol or narcotics where we could just omit it from our lives because then that’s anorexia nervosa. That’s another condition. We have to learn to dance with this thing. We have to have a level of balance. And so,

It’s definitely charged and I guess to the first kind of invitation would be to take inventory.

of what your relationship with food looks like? Do you feel out of control? Are you able to eat with and really enjoy your food and maybe bring an element of sensuality and enjoyment and pleasure to your meal? Or are you inhaling to the point where you don’t even know where the food went and all of sudden you’re on your last bite? Take stock of how do I relate to food? Is it on my mind all the time? Am I finishing lunch and thinking about what I’m going to

eat for dinner? Like where am I at? What’s the baseline? And then the second thing is like it has nothing to do with food. Eating disorders, clinical obesity, anorexia nervosa, like none of the spectrum of the shapes of our physiology has anything to do with food. Sure we eat to look a certain way, but in my perspective

You know, weight is really just pain pushed down by food. It is just…

armor. It’s just a mechanism of dissociation of disconnection from our emotional experience from something uncomfortable we use to distract ourselves or dilute the sensation. And so it has so much more to do with how willing we are to feel than it does about like macronutrient distribution and antioxidant fucking profiles. Like, yeah, the quality of the food is great. It really matters. And it’s not even about that.

It’s about what are we using food for?

Sam Believ (31:42)

Yeah, it’s harder to get obese eating healthy foods, but still possible, right? Yeah, so talking about eating and eating to look a certain way, I know you talk a lot about body dysmorphia. I believe you also had a story of X-Plants. And that’s the first time I’ve ever heard this word in that podcast.

Jillian Acosta (31:50)

But you can do it.

Yeah.

Sam Believ (32:12)

Talk to us a little bit about that, know, body dysmorphia, how are you feeling now and what made you, you know, do an X-Plans surgery.

Jillian Acosta (32:23)

Yeah, I got breast implants when I was almost 22 years old and I did it from a very unfortunate space. I was lonely and I was

disconnected and I was desperate to get love and approval and belonging and feel desired and all the things and so I thought that this would

create a lot like a sense of lovability. I thought people would want me. thought somebody would, you know, yeah, it was from a very low self worth space thinking that I had to look a certain way to be worthy of love. And I had those implants that were like five pounds of silicone on my chest for 12 years to the point where like, I felt so unsafe in my body. was, I was attracting a certain type of man. I felt really self conscious and I couldn’t feel

I couldn’t really breathe deeply because they were so heavy, but I couldn’t really feel my heart. And after sitting with ayahuasca and going deep into this process in a medicine experience, it was like, okay, now is the time to get them out. And it was such a process, such a beautiful ceremony of purging energy from my body, of coming back into reverence and appreciation for my form, for my physicality.

And yeah, it was so beautiful, it’s so powerful. And I honestly have never felt better in my body, but that was kind of just like the, I wouldn’t say it’s the beginning, but that was a huge kind of hurdle that I was approaching that whole ceremony of ExPlan. But.

Even after that, being a dietician, being a functional dietician, knowing what to eat, knowing what supplements to take, deeply knowing endo and GI and nervous system regulation, all those things, knowing all those things and doing all the things, practicing all the things, my body was still carrying 10 pounds of excess weight.

And it was, I was so frustrated because I was like, what the hell? Like I’m exhausting myself doing all the things, you know, eating so well, all, all that shit. And it wasn’t until I really let go of so much of the emotional pain and forgave the person that did that, that my body just like dropped the weight.

And none of my behaviors had changed. All the food, all the things were still the same. And my physiology looked entirely different. There is absolutely such a thing as emotional and energetic weight. It’s not just the physical. So yeah, I feel great.

Sam Believ (35:13)

Yeah, I’m glad. I’m really glad for you. I remember it’s interesting thing about body dysmorphia. It’s not always unhealthy. Like people think that, you know, you’re either too skinny or like in my case, I remember before ever working with the OASC, I was, mean, I was never like the bodybuilder, but I went to gym quite a lot and I

I got big to a point where people were asking me if I’m taking steroids or not, which I didn’t and it felt like a compliment. But I remember I was really admiring fitness influencers and the level of fitness and I would be watching videos about how to do this certain exercise to grow a certain part of your chest, whatever, of like body dysmorphia. And I was like, if only I get this part, then I will be perfect, right? And I remember that

Jillian Acosta (36:05)

Yeah, exactly.

Sam Believ (36:08)

I don’t even recall exact moment, but I went from admiring them to asking when whenever I would see a person like extremely fit, like six pack and, you know, big, big everything, I’ll be like, why, you know, why are you doing this to yourself? Why are you so obsessed with looking at specific ways? Like what kind of pain or what kind of thing you should be carrying in you to dedicate so much attention to such a small

Jillian Acosta (36:32)

Exactly.

Exactly.

Sam Believ (36:38)

you know,

detailed that it’s not, I mean, it’s not going to make you from survival point of view, it’s not going to make you a better fighter and you’re going to be run faster or you’re not going to be, you know, living longer. So it’s like why? And it’s, it’s, it’s, I was just did it to me just all of a sudden I’m like, this is not important anymore. So, I mean, I wish it was as magical for people that are really struggling, but yeah, do you have any opinions?

Jillian Acosta (36:59)

Yo, it’s T.

Yeah, I agree. It’s connected with self-worth,

know, especially for really for all, but I think women are inflicted with this more pervasively, but it’s so connected to self-worth. we collapse, you know, our physicality, how attractive we are, how desirable we are to how worthy of love we are, and that’s just…

untrue and it’s been such a beautiful spiritual journey for me to go down that path and really recognize that nothing on the outside dictates or indicates how worthy I am because I just am inherently worthy. It’s been a beautiful process but a lot of healing and lot of transformation has happened for me to land in this place.

Sam Believ (37:54)

Yeah, for those who are listening, just make sure you remember you’re worthy of love. We all are. No matter how you look and how you feel. I know you had great experiences with ayahuasca and you also work with ketamine. For those who are listening, can you tell them, you know, what is similar? What is different? And just general educate them on

Jillian Acosta (38:03)

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Sam Believ (38:24)

on

especially ketamine.

Jillian Acosta (38:27)

Sure, I I’d say the only two similarities that I can think of right now, well, there are more, but they obviously both induce like altered states of consciousness.

They both plug us into the sacred and divine intelligence. They both suppress the activity of the default mode network in the brain, which is basically where the ego is housed and has all that negative critical chatter. It takes it kind of offline or disrupts the communication. I describe it as like it takes the microphone away from that complex, that part, so that other regions of the brain have the opportunity of communicating.

That’s why repressed memories come forth or alterations in perspective towards the self or others, deep compassion.

So they’re similar in that regard, but obviously in every other way they’re vastly different. Of course ayahuasca is a spirit and a master plant and ketamine is synthetic. It’s not really a spirit, it’s more of a tool. Whereas I see ayahuasca as like a teacher and a guide and spirit and ketamine is a tool, beautiful tool.

Why I like using ketamine in my work, and number one, it’s legal. I have a license and so everything is above ground in my practice. I figured out a way to kind of get people prescriptions and everything is kosher, if you will. But also, a lot of people that work with me, they’re new to the path of psychedelics. And so while ayahuasca can be beautiful at any point in anyone’s journey, I don’t necessarily think it should come later or earlier or where I think everyone’s journey is perfect the way that it is. I did ayahuasca before I did

mushrooms. You know, for people that are more concerned with more intense psychedelic experiences, ketamine is a really beautiful place to start because it is super gentle and it’s navigatable and it is heart opening. Not a lot of people think of ketamine that way, but the way in which I use it, it’s very loving and heart opening and beautiful.

And I also really like it because I’m working with people that have complex trauma. I mean, so are you, but in my perspective, ayahuasca or mushrooms, like every time I go into an experience with those beautiful medicines, my nervous system is contracted because I had experienced so much trauma that like I’m afraid of what I may encounter again, or there’s just this like level of fear that I have to kind of.

work through in order to like access the good stuff. Whereas with ketamine, I’m so wide open because it’s so gentle that I’m able to do like pretty powerful work right off the bat. And so that’s one of the reasons why. Plus it’s like incredibly anti-depressive. It can alleviate suicidal ideation within four hours of a single treatment. That’s profound.

It’s super anti-inflammatory, both neurologically but also really systemically. And the experience lasts about an hour and a half. It’s not an eight hour, six hour, eight hour endeavor. And so it’s workable in an afternoon, for example, or yeah, in a work day.

Sam Believ (41:43)

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. It’s good to have different tools for different applications. It’s interesting. also had ayahuasca before I had mushrooms and before I pretty much had any mind-altering experience. So yeah, straight deep, dive straight into the deep end. So you work with, in functional medicine. So first of all,

Can you explain to the listeners what is functional medicine and talk about, you know, plant medicines as a part of it? Can they be considered as a part of functional medicine?

Jillian Acosta (42:27)

So functional medicine is like root cause medicine. It’s like, it’s evidence-based, it’s still scientific, but it is, it’s like, instead of Western medicine, where it’s like, here’s a symptom, take a pill, it’s like, let’s explore why there’s imbalance in the body and treat it as naturally as possible. And so big pillars in the modality of functional medicine are of course nutrition, but also like lifestyle and stress reduction and spirituality and emotion.

regulation. All of these things are pillars in the realm of functional medicine, which is why I’m aligned with it, I support it, and I practice it both personally and professionally. For me, one of the most fascinating

concepts, I guess, in functional medicine are antecedents, which is like the thing that predisposes somebody to illness later on in life, either early fatality, mortality, or chronic illness, etc. And one of the biggest antecedents or predictive factors is childhood trauma.

And so they know, they bridge the gap of like, if someone has experienced trauma in childhood, adverse childhood experiences, they are proportionately more likely to deal with obesity or chronic illness or diabetes, cancer, et cetera, incarceration. They’ve bridged the gap between those two phenomenons. And I really deeply agree with that.

When I was really practicing, when I was in school for functional medicine, psychedelics were not something that we were talking about. I was writing papers on them because I was already fascinated and had already experienced what I had experienced. I wrote a paper in a class I had called Psychology of Eating.

which was all about how psychedelics can help heal trauma, the root cause, really allowing people the possibility of decreasing inflammatory status and overall physical health. And I ended up giving presentations and keynotes on this very topic. And I really deeply believe that plant medicine could be its own massive pillar in the modality of functional medicine, because it’s the most effective tool I believe there to be.

about healing trauma, for healing trauma.

Sam Believ (44:49)

Yeah, I agree with that a lot as well, because before ayahuasca, I was a bit of a biohacker myself. I had like an ordering and I would, you know, experiment with different diets and stuff like that. So I think I partially learned about ayahuasca through listening to those kinds of podcasts. So it definitely agrees with me as well that it’s a root cause medicine. It goes straight to the core of whatever is causing all your issues.

And but from from from health perspective as well, I think specifically ayahuasca and the purging, we see a lot of people improving their gut health, skin conditions. It’s like there’s this not just a mental aspect of it, but also physical that somehow it makes the physical ailments go away. So what do you think about that? And what do think about gut health?

nutrition and mental health as a combination? Is there a connection?

Jillian Acosta (45:55)

Absolutely. I mean, there’s there we don’t live in boxes, right? Like the mental and the physical are one. We’re in one container. And so if, you know, if somebody goes through an ayahuasca experience and in their purge, they are releasing energy, they’re releasing so much trauma that is absolutely going to impact them on a physical level.

Absolutely. mean also from physiologically speaking there is a gut brain access. There is a gut brain connection. It’s like a bi-directional highway from the gut to the brain. If there’s so much stress in the mind, it’s going to induce the growth of opportunistic bacteria in the gut. And if there is rampant, you know, if there’s a shitty diet where people are eating so much sugar and processed food and it’s like an overgrowth of really poor quality bacteria, it’s absolutely going to affect the mind.

Why? Because 95 % of serotonin is produced in the gut. Serotonin is like the feel good, happy neurotransmitter. If your gut is not happy, your mind is absolutely following suit. And so there’s this like reflective kind of dual mechanism going on between the gut and the brain. That’s why they call the gut the emotional brain. It’s like its own brain. And so it’s deeply governed by emotion.

and it affects and impacts every other system of the body. so releasing the energy, releasing the trauma that you had been previously holding or releasing the trauma that you have been trying to push down with copious amounts of sugar is absolutely going to benefit you systemically.

Sam Believ (47:36)

I agree with that a lot. we definitely there seems to be this separation between, you know, this part and this part, but yeah, it’s all connected. Yeah, without even touching the spiritual side of things. But yeah, let’s touch it. Why not? What do you think behind all this healing and functional medicine? What do you think about the spiritual side of it? Spiritual body or spiritual healing?

Jillian Acosta (47:45)

We don’t live in boxes.

I think that it’s impossible to avoid. I think that it is always, always at play regardless of people’s willingness to acknowledge it, revere it, explore it. It’s…

There’s so much more to this existence than the reality we can see with our own eyes and everything. There’s nothing in my perspective that’s not divine. Everything is divine. Even the stuff that sucks is there’s still divinity in it. You know, I’m really landing in a space of awe and profound gratitude and I have worked my ass off to get to this point but profound gratitude for what I experienced in my childhood.

because it gave me so much. It gave me my purpose, my drive, my fire to witness, especially women, freeing themselves, liberating themselves sexually, liberating themselves in their power, in their gifts, in their full expression, what they wanna do with their lives. Like, I have such a kink for this. It turns me the fuck on. And if I did not go through what I went through, I would not have this fire. It gave me my purpose.

gift and that that is so deeply spiritual because in my perspective this was written already i’ve just been like i’ve just been finding my way on this path that i’m already on you know and and it’s it’s only it’s getting so awesome it’s getting so

so good, so fun, and had that not happened, I wouldn’t be talking to you. I wouldn’t be lit up doing what I’m doing in the world, like just on fire with this passion. And I’m so grateful for that and that I am. It’s all spiritual.

Sam Believ (49:57)

It’s a compression that caused that expansion. So there’s no expansion without compression. So on that beautiful note, let’s wrap up where can people find more about you.

Jillian Acosta (50:07)

Yeah.

People can find me on Instagram at Jillianacosta.underscore.rd or my website which is therootcausemethod.com.

Sam Believ (50:22)

Thank you, Julian. Thank you for this episode. think it will be really interesting to a lot of people. And guys, you’ve been listening to IOWASCA Podcast, and I will see you in the next episode.

Jillian Acosta (50:29)

My pleasure.

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with JM Ryerson, entrepreneur, author, and performance coach with over 20 years of experience. JM is the co-founder and CEO of Let’s Go Win, an organization dedicated to improving leadership, company culture, and peak performance. He is also the author of Let’s Go Win: The Keys to Living Your Best Life and host of the Let’s Go Win Podcast.

We touch upon topics of:

[01:22] Personal development and the inspiration behind Let’s Go Win

[03:15] The impact of studying abroad and embracing cultural diversity

[05:40] JM’s journey with Ayahuasca and how it changed his life

[08:48] Synchronicities, spiritual growth, and the role of numerology

[15:01] Overcoming failure and embracing faith

[17:50] Tools for self-development, including breathwork and meditation

[25:51] JM’s challenging yet transformative Ayahuasca experiences

[34:36] The idea of Ayahuasca retreats for team-building and corporate growth

[36:34] Cultivating a growth mindset and unlocking potential

[43:28] JM’s books and how they can help individuals and businesses thrive

[46:04] The importance of vulnerability in leadership and personal growth

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats, go to http://www.lawayra.com.

Find more about JM Ryerson at http://www.letsgowin.com.

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:01)

Hi guys and welcome to IOWASCA podcast. always, we do the whole assembly of today. have an interview with JM Ryerson. He is an entrepreneur, author and performance coach with over 20 years of experience in building and leading companies. He’s a co-founder and CEO of let’s go win an organization dedicated to enhancing leadership, improving company culture and helping teams achieve peak performance as an international speaker and host of the let’s go win podcast.

shares insights on leadership, mindset, and personal development. He has also authored several books, including, Let’s Go Win, The Keys to Living Your Best Life, which offers strategies for personal and professional success. JM, welcome to the show.

JM Ryerson (00:46)

Sam, thanks for having me, brother. I appreciate it. It’s great to be here and I love your background. people can’t see it, it’s pretty awesome.

Sam Believ (00:54)

Thank you. Yeah, it’s a bit psychedelic and there’s this kind of vortex of galaxies and I put myself in the middle of it, but it’s It’s just because there’s mess behind it. I’m moving offices. So this It kind of covers it all up. Your background is nice, too That’s actually what I’m heading to in my new office, you know family photos and hopefully books I will write in the future. But for now I’ve only started so JM

Tell us a little bit about your story. Obviously we want to go into the ayahuasca, but how, what in your life brought you to this path of growth and improvement and now helping others?

JM Ryerson (01:35)

Yeah, that’s a good question, man. I think when I go back to that big question, personal development, it actually started when I studied abroad. I was over in the Netherlands and my sister, I think she gave me the Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance. think if I’m remember that title correctly, probably think and grow rich. And there was, there was one other, and I just remember riding on the trains going, dude, I love this stuff.

And then after I graduated college, went into being an entrepreneur in the financial service world, which I don’t know much about Sam, honestly, I was good at sales leadership and building teams. And in doing that building teams, what I really was excited about was helping people grow and inspiring them to live their best life. And then after I ended up writing the first book, as you mentioned, Let’s Go Win, I actually wrote that for my wife and I have two kids,

18

and 15 year old sons. It set me on this path, which is now what Let’s Go Win is, which is inspiring people to live their best lives. So it’s just something that I like to do. I like to work on myself so I can show up as the best version of me. And I found that that’s something that I’m passionate about helping others do as well. So that’s what I ended up doing, both personally and professionally. And it’s just kind of a lifestyle at this point.

Sam Believ (03:03)

Thank you for sharing and you mentioned going abroad. How did that affect you, you your ability to be more open minded than let’s say an average American?

JM Ryerson (03:15)

Yeah, it’s a good question because I’m a kid from Montana. I was playing basketball in college. That’s, that’s my passion. And when I blew out my knee for the last time, I kind of was like, well, what now? You know, it’s weird not being, you know, the athlete. And so I decided to go study abroad. One of the best experiences I’ve ever had. And I strongly suggest anybody listening, if you have kids and they’re able to do it.

Certainly do it because it’s a big world out there Sam as you know There’s so many amazing human beings and cultures and things to experience and here’s what’s cool man when I went over I actually ended up studying in Hroningen in the Netherlands and I lived in It is a nice town brother, it’s it’s kind of smaller but just

Sam Believ (04:02)

I’ve been there. It’s a nice town.

JM Ryerson (04:09)

You know really beautiful people. I mean gorgeous women and But anyway, I lived in these apartment complexes that were three stories I think they’re three stories high and in each wing you had people from Japan and Spain and all over Europe all put together in this one, know living space and so every Sunday we would have somebody cook

from their culture, their you know, whatever they were going to put on. So my roommate was Italian, and to just prepare that meal with him and watch him do it. And that was every single week we got to do that as a 21 year old kid. So cool to see so many cultures come together. So it’s it’s just it was an amazing experience. I strongly urge anybody. Like I said, if you’re studying, go study abroad, go abroad, broaden your horizons and see what else is out there.

you

Sam Believ (05:10)

Yeah, traveling has been a big part of my journey as well. That’s kind of what brought me eventually to ayahuasca. Obviously I had to travel all the way to South America to have that experience. So I know you mentioned that you basically, you’ve only worked with ayahuasca and you, you know, it’s been, it’s been your first sort of psychedelic experience. Why it’s because it was similar to me, but why, why was it this way for you? And why did you pick ayahuasca?

JM Ryerson (05:40)

Yeah, it’s one of those things that I was called to it, I guess. I had always put this ayahuasca thing as a drug and I’m very drug averse, right? I’m like, no, man, that’s not for me. No judgment. If you do it, it’s just not my thing.

And somebody that worked for me, his name is Mark and he’s like, Hey bro, you really should go check out this ayahuasca thing. I know this group who, you know, I know you, you’re going to interview him or you’ve talked to him, Brandon at one heart. And I was like, all right, you know, I’m not really into it, but thank you, Mark. I appreciate it.

A couple years later, I actually end up moving to Florida and there’s a guy named Todd and his son and my son are playing on the same baseball team. Well, sure enough, he were talking and he mentions, Hey, I’m actually going to go do this Ayahuasca thing with one heart. In fact, the CEO is my brother-in-law. And I’m like, okay, that’s weird. That’s twice.

But I’m like, cool, man. Have a good trip, Todd, whatever. I do a podcast like a month later and somebody mentions the same group again. Well, I believe in three Sam and I was like, all right, I’m being called to do this. I had lost my dad, just shortly before that. And I knew there was some stuff that I wanted to really deal with some, some trauma and some stuff.

And so I finally said, you know what? I’m being called to it. I’m going to go do it. And it was funny, Sam, because I walked through.

And there’s, I think there was like 30 of us or, or, you know, around that area and they’re like, this is your first experience with the psychedelic. I’m like, yeah, they’re like, dude, you’re jumping right into the big leagues, like straight away. And I said, yeah, man, it wasn’t on my radar, but I’m really excited to experience it. And it ended up being pretty amazing, you know, hard, but amazing at the same time. And I’m just so grateful that, that I did. And here’s the other thing, Sam, I said, I would never do

again and I recently in my meditations I feel like I’m being called back so I’ll probably explore it again and I’m excited to do so

Sam Believ (07:51)

Well, as I like to say, when it comes to ayahuasca calling, I generally tend to be a messenger as well. just the fact we’re talking, consider it’s one of the synchronicities, because that’s literally ayahuasca podcast. That’s kind of all we talk about. I think this ayahuasca skepticism is a very healthy thing. Like I personally had the same opinion. was like, if you take any drugs, you end up under the bridge. Of course, now I know that.

There’s drugs, there’s medicines, but I ended up also jumping straight into the Iwaska wagon and I’ve only tried mushrooms and my approach is like everything that has thousand year tradition is probably safe to work with. Like they know what they’re doing. But so you mentioned those, you know, the calling, the skepticism. How, how did the calling, so the synchronicities, know, like generally they happen right before your first experience. And then a lot of them after, you noticed?

starting to notice those patterns or like sort of universe or God sort of guiding you more clearly I believe you might have mentioned, know, like seeing certain numbers and stuff like that. Can’t talk about that.

JM Ryerson (09:01)

Yeah, I mean so numbers have become a huge part of my world and just before ayahuasca and certainly since it continues to come up in fact next Tuesday, I’m gonna go meet with a numerologist to do a reading so I really enjoy Things that people would call I guess woo-woo I’m into man like I don’t care if you say this is science or not if it works I’m in and so the calling with me I really

want to reconnect with with earth again in a way that I was able to with IA here’s the other thing I’m colorblind so I know that there’s certain colors behind you I can kind of tell but when I was doing IA it was like my god dude there was a whole new world that I had never experienced before

And I really I I want to see it again. I want to experience it again. I I feel like i’m ready to do that so yeah this connection to the higher power to to god to you know

whatever your thing is, I’m feeling compelled to go see it because I’m having a lot of powerful visions and I want to put them all together. I want to understand it. And, the other thing is just being out in nature, man. I’m like, said, I’m from Montana. used to spend so much time barefoot in the ground, in the mountains. And now I do some of it, but not to the level that I did when I did the ayahuasca retreat and I just feeling called to it.

Sam Believ (10:39)

Yeah, it’s interesting that you mentioned the colors because I’ve seen colors on ayahuasca that don’t exist in real life. Like it’s such a strange feeling. So that’s, guess, how it feels to be colorblind and then see colors. it’s a really cool sort of side effect. Were you, you mentioned being woo woo or spiritual, were you spiritual before ayahuasca or did it kind of come or did it like boost your spirituality?

JM Ryerson (11:07)

Well, it certainly boosted it. and here’s what’s been interesting for me prior to going to Ayahuasca. I would say, cause I was raised Catholic and I really never

jived it wasn’t I didn’t have synergy with that particular religion So the word god and I were at a place like it wasn’t something I was very comfortable saying for many many years I mean from probably 18 till Gosh 40 something. I didn’t really use that word a lot

Spiritual for sure like I I meditate several times a day Buddhism Taoism those would be the two areas that I definitely resonate with But here’s what’s interesting just prior to going to the retreat to do to Aya

I actually, I spoke with God in a meditation and that had never happened before. Like there was something going on. And as you guys that know I have better than I do, you know, they’re saying the medicine’s already working before you even got a chance to, do, to, take the medicine per se.

Ever since that moment Sam my relationship with God is something that’s just grown Certainly whatever that looks like for people I have no judgment on but for me I I say every single day I’m grateful for my relationship with God and thank you for Helping me come back to that place I say it every single day when I’m doing my breath work because I really didn’t have that connection prior to the I experience

And now I’m so comfortable talking about God talking about faith and not having any judgment on religion Just saying look if it makes you a better person awesome. This is what I’m doing So I’m I I’m forever grateful for that from Aya because I truly believe it brought me to that place

Sam Believ (13:04)

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. think a lot of religious people are worried about the ayahuasca because they think it’s a kind of religion and you have to like follow other kinds of saints. But I think the way I view it is basically just an antenna that increases your signal to whatever version of God you want to deal with or whatever facet of the face and presentation. It’s interesting you mentioned faith as well because I recently realized that

That’s what I’ve gotten as well from Ayahuasca in a way that when I have some challenges and they’re really tough, I have this like, just faith. if it’s, if something is happening and putting me on a different direction, well, it means that that’s supposed to happen. I’ll do my best work, but I’ll basically just have faith that it’s for the better. Maybe there is a better way to do something. like if a certain kind of path is failing, there might be another path that is better. So that’s a…

That’s another thing that I guess when you talk about woo woo or spiritual stuff is it’s important to kind of accept that there is woo woo stuff that just bullshit, just people pretending to be somebody they’re not or saying something that’s not happened to make money. But through this ayahuasca work, I’ve seen over and over again patterns or things happening that are absolutely paranormal. However, I can like not scientifically, but I can, I can, I can prove it, you know.

So it’s interesting to kind of see that the other there’s both sides of that. So I mentioned my own challenges, right? When I strike some difficulty and I’m looking for another path. I know you talk about winning and about losing and about learning. can you talk to us about that and maybe what role could psychedelics play in somebody’s journey when they’re failing or let’s say

need to find another path.

JM Ryerson (15:03)

Yeah, I think the word faith is going to come into play in a major way because here’s the deal. Yeah, I grew up playing sports and I understand the idea of winning and losing but when people talk about let’s go win, I don’t really believe there’s a loser that should be involved right now. The only way you really fail in my opinion is if you quit right because every time I’ve failed on a project or something fell through.

Typically some great learning lesson came from that or something even greater, know, that’s rejection if somebody rejects you or says no Sometimes in the moment our ego, know stands up and it’s like my gosh, it’s the worst thing ever Well, if you just are patient for a second you realize wait a minute. There’s something greater waiting for you right around the bend

That rejection was one of the greatest gifts that God, universe, spirit guides, whoever you subscribe to gave you. And so it’s, is one of those interesting things that I have people all the time ask me about winning. And it’s taken me down a really cool rabbit hole with the word winning itself, because if you look up the word winning, you’re going to see one word over and over and over. And this is something that is fascinating to me.

Self-love self-care self-belief self-development that word self is always present in Winning and so then I was like, okay cool. But what does that mean? Well self stands for in my opinion Strength energy love and freedom and there’s three areas that are a part of that emotional mental and physical so

If that’s the case and I want to win quote unquote in life, I really have to start with myself first.

And so that’s what I’m teaching on a daily basis, Sam, when I’m working with my clients, whether it’s an athlete or an executive, it starts with you, right? It starts with how are you pouring into yourself so you can show up as the best husband or a father or employer, employee or whatever hat you’re wearing. You have to pour from a full cup. You can’t pour from an empty cup.

And so it’s really taken me down a cool training keynote. This is what I’m delivering so often is like, what are you doing for yourself? And inside of that, there’s 12 different exercises that I offer to people to really get them doing it. Some of which include breath work, meditation, grounding, cold plunges, things that people in this world are really comfortable with. But for a lot of people, they’ve never even considered doing this.

Now to the question you asked about psychedelics and how it can help you It opens up just like it does traveling in my opinion, just like you started this episode off with Why did you travel? What did you gain from it to me? going and doing Aya opened up a whole new portal or world and That I had lost at some point or I’m sure it was there and I’ve lost it and I love that connection because we are truly connected

Well, how does that help you in business my gosh now you truly have more empathy for those that you work with maybe even for your own competitors Now you have energy and alignment with people that you’d never saw before all because of this medicine that unlocked your subconscious or however the science whatever that does

So that you can really see people in a different light. So I think anybody that chooses to do it, I think it’s a powerful tool. I would also let them know, man, hey, buckle up. It is not for the faint of heart. It’s not easy in my opinion. And it’s something that, like I said, I never thought I’d do again. And yet now I’m like, yeah, I can feel I really am interested in doing it again because I want that connection.

Sam Believ (19:12)

So you mentioned emotional level, mental level and physical level. And obviously, since you work with the ayahuasca, now what do you think about adding another one, which is the spiritual? Have you in your work with the medicine, have you touched that or felt the spirit?

JM Ryerson (19:29)

Yeah, no question about it. So it’s interesting in the emotional, mental, physical. You’re right. There is that part. And what I also coach people to do is take care of three things every single day. Take care of your mind, your body, and your soul. In my opinion, soul is spirit. Spirit is soul. Kind of use them interchangeably.

Sam Believ (19:49)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

JM Ryerson (19:51)

And it’s such an individual thing for people, know, like mind it’s, know, you should be working on improving your mind, whatever that looks like, whether it’s reading or a podcast or, know, just looking for, to, to really develop your, mindset body, move the body, right? At the end of the day, whether you’re lifting or you’re playing pickleball or you’re just yoga, whatever, man, you’re, we all know to do that.

The spiritual side is so different for everybody for me. It’s meditation for others It’s reading the Bible for some it’s hiking up a mountain others. It’s swimming in the ocean There’s no real right or wrong way For you to fill that bucket, but I will say I and those experiences 1000 %

Are going to accelerate your development in that spiritual sense I don’t think there’s any way to avoid it and here’s why I believe that Sam the the last thing that made me decide to go do ayahuasca Every human being I asked that did it they said the exact same thing. It’ll change your life and I thought Okay, that’s interesting. They didn’t really say a ton more after that, but those words always came out. It will change your life

And a hundred percent I can say the same it changed my life and for the better for sure but I was so fearful going in about this drug thing and I realized why people say it’ll change your life because It’s doing something that I don’t think you Can attain without some of that medicine. I think it would be very difficult To reach that place that I brings you to without having the medicine

Sam Believ (21:33)

Yeah, it changed my life too completely. And in an interesting way, like not over the night, overnight, like, boom, I just realized something and changed, but it just like changed the direction of my life by just one degree. But I ended up in a totally different place. And here I’ve heard hundreds of people told me that, you know, people that came through our doors also saying that it changed their life. you, you mentioned entrepreneurship, obviously you work with entrepreneurs. What would you say, you know, to people that are afraid of I’ve seen like in Silicon Valley.

They’re not afraid of ayahuasca because a lot of CEOs end up like quitting or finding another path. What do you have? You noticed that there is there, is there a fear for people that are driven for wrong reasons to maybe stop being driven or take another path?

JM Ryerson (22:19)

I don’t think I mean have people taken other paths and found a different purpose because they’ve done I 100%. Who cares does if that makes them happy. I think that’s what we all want. Right. I it’s interesting you bring up Silicon Valley because when you look at the majority of the economy of our world, it’s kind of based out of that little area, you know, in in California, Northern California.

Well, one thing that’s that a lot of those CEOs I can’t say all of them They typically are doing some form of psychedelics or they’re going to Nevada and doing I’m failing on the name, but they’re going and and Thank you. They’re going to Burning Man Well, they figured out that this creative side of your brain something gets unlocked when you do these psychedelics now

Sam Believ (22:57)

Running man?

JM Ryerson (23:12)

not saying it’s for everyone, right? Like if you were to say, hey man, let’s have a hit of acid. I’m going to say no. Like I’m just not interested. But like you, if it’s mushrooms, I’m probably, yeah, man, if it’s a good space, I would love to be in that safe space and see what is out there that I’m not able to access in my subconscious or I’m not able to access the connection to the earth.

I think they figured out that you know what there’s more to our brains and we’ve been conditioned to kind of shut these things down and these psychedelics open them up now many creative people have utilized whether it’s drugs or medicine to access things that they couldn’t do otherwise and I think it’s smart. I think if you’re willing to do the work

If you’re willing to say, know what I want to, I want to be more creative. I want to be more loving. I want to be more abundant, whatever your thing is. I was cause going to help. And I know I’m talking to you. This is your thing. So you subscribe to this, but if somebody’s listening, they’re like, yeah, man, I’m, afraid of it.

There’s really no need to because if you’re doing it in a safe space with people that know what they’re doing, there’s really nothing to fear. Now that doesn’t mean you’re not going to see some nasty stuff, man. There’s going to be some tough things to deal with, but wouldn’t you rather deal with it? So you’re in, in your life, can thrive. And I think that’s what I’m seeing these CEOs in Silicon Valley to all over the world. They’re saying, I want my life to be better. And this medicine helps.

Sam Believ (24:55)

Yeah, there’s no, I don’t think there’s a way we could separate our culture from psychedelics period. We were always delving in that space and ancient Greeks were tripping and you know, everyone was tripping on something is just that we kind of lost it. Now we’re recovering it. We don’t have our own tradition, but we can obviously go to Amazonian traditions and others. And he had like

the even original math people that were figuring out, you know, the programming languages and like early, like people that came up with the idea of computer, they were also tripping on stuff. So it’s like, obviously it opens a lot of creativity. So you mentioned several times that, you know, I was case challenging it can be a difficult experience. Can you describe your own experience and what were the challenging parts and maybe what were the nice parts?

JM Ryerson (25:51)

So the big ones that come to mind, have, my hearing is not awesome. And when I do, I, when I know it’s really kicking in, there’s a huge loud buzzing that happens in my ears and I don’t like it, man. I mean, it is like, it’s just really, I know, cause I did it three times. Every time that buzzing would start, then the visions and everything would start.

For me, the idea of not having control of the functions, and that was the scariest part. Because for instance, I love tequila. That’s just, if there’s a vice in this world, it’s either red wine or tequila for me. But I know if I drink one glass of tequila, two glasses, three glasses, I know exactly how I’m gonna feel. I’m gonna feel X every single time. And I’m in complete control.

With Aya, it was so new to me and I’d never done it. I did the first cup and I remember sitting there for almost an hour and felt nothing. And I thought, shoot, something’s wrong. Well, nothing was wrong. They offered additional medicine. I had that and I don’t even think it was a full cup. On my way back to my mat, I literally felt, man, you could feel the tingling coming on, feel some things.

Scared me initially brother because I was like, man, like I am NOT I’m going to a place that I don’t have control of what’s interesting Sam is I don’t feel like I’m a Controlling type a personality like my wife certainly would fall into that category But for me, I’m actually pretty easy going for the most part, but I found with this medicine That was my challenge

Now the beautiful things, man, the, music that they were playing at, at, where I was at the nature, cause we were in Costa Rica and you could hear all the different animals around. was incredible. The colors will always be my favorite because I, again, I don’t get to experience it on a daily basis the way maybe some people do. don’t know, but certainly it was something that was so vibrant and so clear and just.

It was it was just astonishing. I’ve never seen anything like it and I I’m starting to want that back And then the connection just I remember seeing just the almost like being an avatar the trees and everything Connecting and it was like I don’t see that on a daily basis

And I just it’s something that I want to experience again and I want to understand You know things that are being sent to me like the black hawk that’s followed me since Aya that literally everywhere I go that black hawk is still with me today and I want to understand even more what it’s trying to tell me and I think I know but I think I can help

Sam Believ (28:48)

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Yeah, I was going to make a joke, know, as long as a Black Hawk is not a helicopter, then you’re good. You described that connection that you felt and connection to nature. How does that, you know, when do you feel it the most? Is it just when you’re in the nature or?

JM Ryerson (28:59)

Hahaha.

Sam Believ (29:18)

How did that feeling affect your life?

JM Ryerson (29:22)

Yeah, so the last ceremony we did was during the daytime and I actually went outside and I just laid on the grass man and I started writing a poem. I haven’t written a poem since probably fifth grade when we had to do a haiku. Like that’s not something I do.

I’m watching on the grass watching this hawk just circle and circle and circle and So every day that I go outside now whether I’m in Florida or Montana or Colorado or Tennessee Oklahoma, I mean all the places I’ve gone just recently Guess what that hawk is still right there now I Feel a connection to that black hawk in a way that you know is a connection with my dad

feel a connection, especially when I go outside and do my yoga and ground every single day. But I think the one thing that I’m missing is the vibrant colors until there’s one meditation that I’ve been doing recently that I’ll get close, but it’s not quite the same.

So I just try to, my practices every single day, at least five to 30 minutes that I get outside and I just get my feet in the ground.

That’s when I feel connected again, because otherwise, brother like you, I’m sure, I mean, I’m doing a lot of these, you know, zooms and I’m on the phone and you’re doing business. You got to make time to get outside and get reconnected because the energy that we get is just, it’s so, it’s so profound. And it’s something that I spent a ton of time outside as a kid. And I kind of lost out a bit in my adulthood and I want to get it back.

Sam Believ (31:08)

Yeah, here definitely it’s easy because of the climate. It’s so nice all year round. So I definitely go for the walks. You mentioned your dad and I think you lost your dad not that long before your first ayahuasca retreat. Have you been able to access this consciousness or maybe contact him or somehow process the loss?

JM Ryerson (31:35)

So to a degree, it took me

I think three months of meditation to where I could ever see my dad’s face again. Now lost him to suicide. And I only say that because it was a traumatic thing that I didn’t know was even a possibility. My dad was my hero. It’s, you know, still is just strongest man you’ve ever met. And I didn’t realize how much pain he was going through. And I’m a mindset coach. So that’s even more difficult to be like, gosh, I just wish I could have helped.

Just prior to going on the retreat I have done a meditation and I actually saw his face and I was able to connect with him again which had taken months to do that

Since then I recently especially i’ve been seeing him a lot in my dreams and Not that he’s saying anything to me, but I I just i’m seeing him So I don’t know man i’ll never have the answers that I want or at least I don’t think I will until I go to that other side

But I know that he’s in a better place. And when I see that black Hawk, man, it just tells me that, you know, he’s up there. He’s not struggling because when I watch this Hawk, man, he’s not fighting against the wind. He’s gliding.

And he’s always just gliding and, obviously for somebody to take their life, they weren’t gliding, man. They were going through a lot of pain and struggle and to see this black Hawk not doing that. it just tells me that he’s in a better place. Now, some people don’t believe that and that’s okay, but it’s for me, it’s given me a lot of peace and solace to know that he’s found some peace and harmony and hopefully he’s up there fly fishing just like, you

That was his love when he was down here. So I don’t know if I’ve been able to connect with him the way I want to, but I certainly continue to be open to it.

Sam Believ (33:41)

Yeah, sorry for your loss. JM, suicide is kind of rampant, these days and we get lots of people actually coming here that later on mentioned that they bought one way ticket because they basically tried everything and they say, this doesn’t work, I was cause specifically they, they were going to like, you know, finish it. And, and, and as far as I know, all of them are still laughing, kicking and better than ever before. It’s kind of, it can be that

sort of strong jumpstart when it comes to mental health journey. But yeah, in your career, you built teams. I just wanted to run an idea by you. We do private retreats and once we had a group of board directors that came and did the retreat together, they’re also like remote family members, cousins, et cetera. And was pretty great.

I was like, and you probably noticed that when you collect group of people and they work with the Alaska together and they share, they started to really bond really quickly. And I was like, what if, what if we do a retreat specifically for like team building instead of like going, taking people playing paintball together, bring them to a retreat and just like actually, I think, solidify the team. What do you, what do you think about that?

JM Ryerson (35:01)

think it’d be incredible, brother. Obviously, they’re going to need to have that growth mindset to say, you know what, I’m willing to go through this experience. Because that takes a lot of trust, you know, for team members to truly be that vulnerable. But I will say any company or team listening, if you want to take it to the next level and you want to accelerate it, 1000%, there’s there’s this is an accelerant to everything that you’re going to do.

And as you said, you now can relate and bond about something so much bigger than not that paintball is bad or not that doing games is bad, but this is deep work.

And when you do deep work, now you’re connecting at a much deeper soul level to where you and I are brothers for life, man. It’s like we went through an experience that no one can take away from us. No matter what happens in the outside world, we can always go back and remember those times together. yeah, mean, dude, I think it’s fantastic idea. think any companies or teams that are open to it.

You’re going to have great results, but they’re going to have to definitely have a growth mindset and trust one another enough to say, yeah, this is something that we should do.

Sam Believ (36:20)

So how do they get that growth mindset? know, obviously I believe I have it, you have it. How does one adopt it even before drinking Alaska?

JM Ryerson (36:34)

You know, it’s a good question because I would say I do have a growth mindset and yet I have a fixed mindset in certain ways too, right? It’s something that I’m constantly working on every single day. I think Carol Dweck when she wrote the book mindset She unlocked this idea That there there is a fixed mindset and a growth mindset and one is certainly more productive more attractive if you want to live your best life

So for me, when she put the words around what having a growth mindset is versus a fix, I got to say, man, it changed the way I talk to my kids. It changed the way I look at failures again, quote unquote. And I think she just, she absolutely nailed it. So it’s one of those books that I read often, you know, probably once every year too, just to remind myself.

And it’s something that I, know, you’re going to have a growth mindset in many, many ways and you’ll catch yourself having a fixed mindset. And that’s okay. That’s very human of you. Just continue to work on it, continue to evolve. So yeah, it’s been an ever evolving journey, man. I don’t think it’s ever going to stop, but I certainly love the idea of always being open to new ideas and to meeting new people. Because I remember Sam at one point I said, I have enough friends.

You know how stupid that is? was 27 or 28 years old. There’s 8 billion people. And at some point I said, you know what? I have enough friends. That’s how close minded I was at that moment. I’ll never meet all of the people I want to in my lifetime. There’s just so many amazing people out there, but you got to be willing to do it. So I just hope that people open their minds to it and say, yeah, you know, there’s a cool big world out there and I’d love to experience it.

Sam Believ (38:25)

Yeah, so on that note, can you talk to us about the let’s go win philosophy? What is that?

JM Ryerson (38:33)

Yeah, so the overall philosophy is inspiring people live their best lives. That’s that’s why it exists now.

What I do is I help companies double or triple their revenue in the first year. That’s, that’s kind of the sweet spot that I’ve found. And I do it doing really basic things. I help companies get real clear on what their values are, how you behave, what are your goals? Are you in alignment? Do you have the right people on the bus in the right chairs and

When you do that, it allows you to now thrive. Your company grows relatively drama free and work becomes fun again. So what it’s really ended up being Sam is for instance, I work with some dental practices because dentistry has the highest level of suicide of any occupation.

And the reason that they they hire me is because they want to double or triple their revenue. Okay, cool. Let’s do that. But the reason that I want to work with them, I’m excited is because we get to work on the mental health side of things.

And so what’s cool with the companies they get to work with is their money is growing but guess what? So is their self growth their their love and their their work-life balance and work-life harmony starts to get in alignment with what they want in life. So it’s just helping people achieve that freedom the love and abundance that they should have and do have access to helping them unlock that. Meanwhile, they also get to you know

grow and expand their business side of things, which allows them to have the freedom to have more time, the freedom financially to go experience something like Ayahuasca or, you know, just take that vacation that they never did. So it’s become so much bigger than just helping them with money. It’s really helping them experience what owning a company should be all about.

Sam Believ (40:35)

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. So you obviously coach those people and who needs a coach? And I have a coach personally I work with. I have a coach and I have a mentor kind of persona in my life as well. for people that don’t have a coach or for higher level people in the business who also maybe are thinking about

having a coach, when should they get one and is there ever time when it’s not recommended?

JM Ryerson (41:11)

So this is a softball question. Thank you, Sam. It’s everyone needs a coach. Look, if you’re, if you’re a basketball fan, Michael Jordan had a coach, had a strength coach, had a dietician, had a, stretching coach. mean, this is the greatest basketball player of all time. And he had coaches all over helping him perform at his highest level. Well, if that’s good enough for the greatest basketball player of all time, I think it’s great enough for all of us that we need a

And here’s why if you and I look in the mirror we see a certain You know, we see the the the reflection it may or may not be the way that it actually looks to the rest of the world and the other Example is if I leave a voice message, I think my voice sounds a certain way when I listen back to it brother my gosh, it sounds so different

Well, that’s what a coach is going to be able to help you with is how you’re showing up in the world. They’re going to see your blind spots because the sad truth is Sam, we will lie to ourselves. We will let ourselves down all the time.

But if you have a coach, they’re there to make sure that you’re keeping accountable to your word, helping you really thrive in whatever endeavor you’re pursuing. So everyone should have a coach at all times. And by the way, never hire a coach without asking them if they have a coach.

Because we all need it and we all have that blind spot of those flat sides And that’s what a coach is really there to do is help you see it help you get better Cheer you on in that journey and you know, it’s I I hope that everyone does find one because life is just better when you have somebody on your side Rooting for you really helping you along the way. So I Hope everyone finds a coach or certainly a mentor even if you can’t afford

Find somebody that’s lifting you up and is making you really, you know strive to be a better person

Sam Believ (43:14)

Yeah, great, great advice. So you wrote three books. Obviously, you mentioned after drinking ayahuasca, you’re also not doing poetry. So the next one is probably going to be a poetry book. But talk to us about your three books and which one should people absolutely read first?

JM Ryerson (43:28)

Ha ha ha.

Man that’s a good question It’s like picking between your kids. I would say read let’s go win. I That book is if you were to hop on a flight in New York and you were to land in LA you would have finished the book and It was an easy read that you were able to get at least three big ideas from each chapter. So there’s 12 chapters

Sam Believ (43:40)

Yeah.

JM Ryerson (43:59)

That’s the first book, that’s the orange one, let’s go win. Champion’s Daily Playbook, I wrote that because, again, I told you I’m from Montana. For people to work one-on-one with me, when I even, sometimes when I say my fee, I’m like, gosh, I want more people to be able to work with me. That’s why I wrote Champion’s Daily Playbook.

It literally lines out how I coach people. And if you set a goal in 90 days, if you set that goal and follow the book every single day for 90 days, you’ll hit the goal. So that’s probably the most practical usable guide. That’s more like a journal. And then the last one upgrade that was really one I wrote because you know what I realized Sam is nobody likes change people. That’s by and large people don’t like change. They resist it.

But everybody loves to upgrade brother. We, upgrade our cell phones every year. We love getting upgraded on the plane, you know, or the car rental or the hotel. It’s the same damn thing. It’s a change, but you’re just making an upgrade. And so that is one that if you’re struggling with change, I would say, take a look at upgrade because it challenges that thought to say, I don’t like change. Cool. Don’t change. There’s nothing wrong with you, but maybe you want to upgrade.

And thank you for asking man because writing those books was a lot of work and something I enjoyed and I hope other people can enjoy it and get some value from it

Sam Believ (45:29)

Same as you said once that, you know, I’ll never do ayahuasca again and now you’re contemplating it again. You also say, you know, this is hard to write books. I’ll probably never do it again. You know, you never know. Last questions, a question I want to ask you, you talk about sort of vulnerability in the growth journey and as opposed to like, let’s go win. That’s a very sort of winning, losing, but

more about like emotional vulnerability in the growth journey. Can you talk a little bit about that?

JM Ryerson (46:04)

Yeah, actually the first chapter of let’s go win is vulnerability because it’s the most profound lesson that I learned as an executive. If you want to be an amazing leader, just let people in. People will follow you to the wherever you’re going, man. If you truly let them in, if you put on a facade and a show, people don’t buy that man. And it’s really not a good way to go about life. So what I say in there is look masks.

that we start to put on at some point in our life. Take that stuff off, man. Masks are meant for parties. It’s not meant for real life. When you can take those masks off and truly show up as that naked, vulnerable self.

That’s when life becomes really really easy And I know it’s a scary idea because look I was taught boys don’t cry That was my entire childhood is that boys aren’t supposed to cry and you’re supposed to stuff that stuff way down Well, what happens if you do that it ends up blowing up in some volcanic burst of chaos. That’s not good, man So allow yourself to be vulnerable show people, you know, let them you know See under the kimono know that you’re gonna be okay. Well

Some people take advantage of you, maybe, but you’ll know those are the wrong people anyway. So yeah, man, I appreciate you asking that and I hope the people listening are truly open to it because it is so beautiful and free when you could truly just be your vulnerable self because it allows you to take all that energy and focus on something positive instead of looking a certain way, sound a certain way.

Sam Believ (47:43)

Yeah, we talk a lot about vulnerability at Lawyra because when people come and we put them together and they start sharing, there’s this resistance. So I asked them, you know, take off your masks and become yourself. And through that vulnerability, connections start to be created because otherwise people think like, everyone is perfect. I’m the only one flawed. So therefore they can’t connect to each other. It’s like almost these masks is like.

plastic that they slip over. They can’t be that friction, that rawness. So vulnerability is incredibly important and that kind of helps people at the retreat to also heal through the group healing. Because not all of it is Zayuwaska, it’s also the group healing itself. JM, thank you for this episode. I think it was really entertaining and very valuable. I’ve definitely learned a few things.

Where can people find more about you or maybe if they can afford it get you as a coach or maybe yeah more.

JM Ryerson (48:52)

Yeah, thank you brother. Any, anywhere you look up, let’s go win. I’ll pop up, but I’d say go to let’s go win.com. Lots of free resources there for you. I am taking on one more company, depending when this comes out in 2024. And then every quarter I will take on another company to help them grow. And I’m not saying we’re the right fit, but let, we can discover that we can go through and see, Hey, do you really want to grow your company and double or

Triple E revenue. Cool, man. Let’s let’s take a look and see if we’d be a good fit. So check it out. Hit me up and let’s see if we fit together. If so, that would be amazing. And Sam, you do a great job on this podcast. I love what you’re doing, brother. And keep up the amazing work. I so appreciate you.

Sam Believ (49:41)

Thank you, JM. Guys, you’ve been listening to Ayahuasca Podcast and I will see you on the next episode.

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with Rebecca Hayden. Rebecca is a hypnosis practitioner specializing in personal growth, self-discovery, and healing. She is the host of Ayahuasca Talks Podcast, where she explores the transformative power of Ayahuasca and other plant medicines, emphasizing self-love, authenticity, and integration.

We touch upon topics such as:

Rebecca’s journey from documentary filmmaking to shamanism and energy healing (00:47-03:00)

Her first encounters with plant medicines like Iboga and Ayahuasca (03:00-12:12)

How Rebecca used supplements to transition off antidepressants and empower herself (05:13-09:03)

The role of hypnosis in deepening integration and re-experiencing Ayahuasca’s lessons (17:28-20:55)

Integration lessons, including learning self-love and breaking unhealthy patterns (24:38-32:37)

Insights into Ayahuasca’s non-linear lessons and group healing dynamics (42:30-48:47)

Key elements for creating a meaningful documentary on Ayahuasca (52:25-56:27).

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats, go to http://www.lawayra.com.

Find more about Rebecca Hayden at http://www.rebeccahayden.com or connect via her podcast, Ayahuasca Talks.

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:03)

Hi guys and welcome to Ayahuasca podcast. As always, we do the whole assembly of today. I’m going to have a conversation with Rebecca Hayden. Rebecca is a hypnosis practitioner, specializing in personal growth, self-discovery and healing. She’s the host of the Ayahuasca talks podcast where she and her guests share experiences and insights related to Ayahuasca and other plant medicines. Through her podcast and writings, Hayden explores the therapeutic benefits of Ayahuasca, focusing on its role.

in healing emotional wounds and fostering personal transformation. She emphasizes the importance of self-love and authenticity. Rebecca, welcome to the show.

Rebecca Hayden (00:44)

Thank you. Thanks for inviting me.

Sam Believ (00:47)

Rebecca, can you tell us a little bit about your story and what brought you to work with Iowa Sky?

Rebecca Hayden (00:56)

Just before I entered the world of alternative healing entirely, was working on documentaries. And I did a lot of research for a particular documentary that I never ended up making. It just got so dark and depressing. And that was a tendency for me in my life anyway. So it just got kind of worse.

I mean, there were some good things that came out of it. Things started to make sense to me, the way that I viewed the world and why.

So that was helpful, but all the rest of it was kind of really hard for me to take. And my purpose in going into that work was to help the world. And I think that in the end, even though I thought I was doing a good job of that, I realized that not only was it not really helping, it was harming me. And my son was really young at the time.

You know, one day I realized I just had to walk away and heal. And so then I started with energy healing and then I wanted to understand. I was in research mode, you know, because I was a researcher and documentary filmmaker. So when these magical things started happening with energy healing, I thought, what is this? Where does it come from? Who started this? So I went into the whole history of that and I discovered shamanism.

as a result, which was the root of energy healing. then I pursued that and then came plant medicines. And my first medicine was iboga actually in 2014. That’s after I started to work with shamanism and journeying and all kinds of magical things were starting to happen already. And then iboga was a big experience. And then I was ready for ayahuasca.

Sam Believ (03:00)

Interesting, you mentioned documentary this year that’s actually the next retreat, which starts next Monday, we’re gonna start filming a sizzle reel or a trailer for a documentary about ayahuasca. So it’s very timely. So I think we can talk about it later, but I’ve heard that when you were dealing with extreme depression,

Rebecca Hayden (03:21)

Mm-hmm.

Sam Believ (03:29)

and that you just ask the universe for help. Can you talk to us about that story?

Rebecca Hayden (03:35)

Yeah, that was so odd. I mean, not so odd now because I’ve had much more odd experiences than that. But at the time, this was completely outside of anything I had experienced. was researching, you know, another topic entirely, like having to do with deep politics and nothing to do with, with anything beyond, you know, what’s seemingly called the rational world. And

there was a discussion on one of the one of the websites that I was delving into about, you know, attacks of some kind and surreal stuff, stuff that actually delved into the political end of ETs and things like this. So there’s they’re already getting into this, you know, content that was beyond, you know, anything that I delved into before. But

with it came a lot of familiar stuff from the political world, you know.

those people who don’t want others to discover certain things. So anyway, there was this whole discussion about someone reaching out into the universe and I thought, and at that time I was really suffering and there was no help that I hadn’t already gone for, you know, in the conventional world of medicine that didn’t work out at all. So one night I was looking at my son and I did, reached out into the universe and just said, hey, you know, I need help and

And really shortly after that, I discovered a documentary that helped me get off my meds, because at the time I was on depression medication and I didn’t want to be. It wasn’t working, hadn’t been for years, but getting off of it was difficult. And a lot of people attest to that and even tapering didn’t work. So.

And this documentary was not about that necessarily. It did talk about some supplements for depression. But by the end of watching it, I knew exactly what I needed to do. And I put together a protocol for myself. And I actually did it literally overnight. And I don’t recommend that to anybody because it was a pretty miraculous thing. I had no side effects. This is unheard of, really. And again, I do not recommend people do that. Go to a naturopath. So ultimately, down the road,

but

I did go to a naturopath for another matter. And she asked me, I told her this story. She asked me what was my protocol for getting off of the depression medication. And when I gave her the list and how much I was taking, she said, that’s exactly what I would have recommended for somebody. So it was very interesting.

Sam Believ (06:23)

Yeah, when you start delving into this world, synchronicity start happening and things start falling in place. I know you don’t recommend it and not as a medical advice, but what are the supplements that are good for depressed people?

Rebecca Hayden (06:43)

You know, it was so long ago, people always ask me that when I tell this story and I don’t even remember what I was taking. I think it was like a lot of niacin, which is a B vitamin, I think B3, but, and omegas, like a lot of omegas and other things I can’t even remember. D3, I think. There were a lot of them and high dosages too, so.

I would really do your own research and find a natural path that can help with this too. Because I know this is a big issue with ayahuasca as well. I talk to people and I let them know they have to get off of them before they go to a retreat. And it’s a big matter. It’s not easy. It was very, very difficult for me.

Sam Believ (07:27)

Yeah, it’s a bit of a catch-22 when people who need ayahuasca the most, they tend to be on antidepressants and obviously it does not combine well with ayahuasca. So before they can even come, they go through, you know, a gruesome period of weaning off and everything becomes even more difficult. Obviously ayahuasca helps them afterwards, but that period, it’s a very big roadblock for many people.

Rebecca Hayden (07:55)

It is,

yeah. But you know, things coming up pre-ceremony is not an unusual thing either, right? So, but you’re right. It feels like a rite of passage thing where you have to prove that you’re, you know, ready and…

Sam Believ (08:03)

Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Hayden (08:12)

Yeah, it’s challenging, but I think it can be done. do. I mean, I know I did it myself, but I think it can be done in a more reasonable manner too. So that’s something that is worth looking into to get a naturopath on board and get a protocol. I can even dig mine up, I think maybe, or some reasonable.

facsimile thereof for you to pursue if you want to help people who are thinking of coming to the retreat center.

Sam Believ (08:43)

Yeah, getting off into the presence is like a test by the universe is like how badly they really want that healing. so you use supplements, your depression got better. And how much from then till till you actually working with ayahuasca?

Rebecca Hayden (09:03)

that was before I started energy healing and my depression didn’t get better right away. It was just a feeling of empowerment that I could actually get off this medicine by myself. And, and I just started to feel like, there’s more going on here. You know, like, I asked for this help and suddenly I’m starting to get this stuff without, you know, knowing where that was coming from. So.

that was a good beginning but no it was a long long road then then i just discovered this energy healing guy very mysterious stuff like he there was this long ad in in a natural magazine that i had subscribed to and

and like no website that I was aware of at the time or anything like that. And I contacted him and he just sent these like energy waves to me and my body started moving in all these ways that were not dictated by the brain. It’s not like I’m gonna lift my arm up now. It’s like my arm would lift up and move in these strange ways. And I’d go, wow, that’s interesting. I was the observer, you know?

And I walked away from that going, how’s that possible? Like what’s going on there? And that’s when I took that deep dive into energy healing. And then I started pursuing shamanism, started journeying. And then things just started to happen spontaneously. Like I’d get downloads and at night.

lots of messages and had to start to work with my dreams. And then, so one night I asked about iboga. I discovered iboga because I was pursuing the shamanism thing going, what’s this all about? And people started talking about medicines because I wasn’t working with medicines at the time.

And then I heard it was really good for depression. So I thought, okay. And then one night I asked, is this for me? You know, cause I had already started to establish this back and forth and you know, I knew I was receiving guidance. just before I fell asleep that night, I got this big powerful.

vision. My eyes were closed, but I wasn’t quite asleep yet. I was in a theta state now, I realized, because now that I do hypnosis, I realized what that state is. And that’s what we do when we go into hypnosis. So I was in a journeying state. And I got these like, this explosion of color and psychedelia, like psychedelic kind of art moving though in motion. It was like a little movie. And to me, that was a big yes. Yeah. This medicine’s for you. And I, my

question was two part, is he bogus for me and when will I do it? Because this was like the dead of winter and I saw grass like then then my vision zeroed in on brand new bright green grass.

And I did not like that answer at all because it was like, I don’t know, January and I was really suffering. And I decided to misinterpret it. I was like, yeah, there’s like lots of grass where you’ll be going, you know, because we go to warm countries to do these medicines. So I went and researched and found a place and.

Everything kept falling apart every time I tried to plan this trip, like spectacularly fall apart, you know, to the point where they wouldn’t even talk to me after a while, because every time I said, yeah, it’s happening, then it wouldn’t. And then,

And then I found this other place suddenly that was like far more appealing to me and just, you know, how your body just says yes. And so I went, okay, maybe I should pursue this. And when that happened, the weather suddenly turned and got warmer and literally overnight, you know, the snow melted. was green grass and visible the next day the money came through and everything fell into place. And I went and did he Boga. So.

And ayahuasca didn’t show up for me until like the next year. So that was 2014. And then I went pursuing it and I found iboga or no, I found peyote instead. So I had that journey. And then in January of the next year of 2015, everything came together and like this place was booked up months in advance, but they said, you know,

apply anyway and sometimes things happen and something happened and I was like there within a month and yeah it was an amazing experience.

Sam Believ (13:33)

Interesting but obviously your podcast is called Ayahuasca Talks not Iboga Talks or Peyote Talks. What was so special about Ayahuasca that you dedicated your time to creating the podcast and interviewing people about it?

Rebecca Hayden (13:41)

Yes, I know.

Because once, because ayahuasca is my medicine and I discovered this because I was having all of these experiences, but once I agreed to do ayahuasca, it was apparent she was working with me in advance. And then when I was in the medicine, there was just tons of dialogue, whether I was in the medicine or not.

And a strong indication you’ll be working with us. And I’m like, well, what does that mean? And I got a little sort of scared. And I said, look, I’m new at this. I didn’t know what it meant. And this voice said, don’t worry. We’ll stay with you. So after I went home to Toronto,

This voice just stayed with me. There’s a story behind that too. Like when I went to do peyote, there was in ceremony, there’s a tradition where you offer a gift. So you’re supposed to give a gift. And I had in mind immediately, as soon as the facilitator said, have to give a gift, I knew exactly what it was. This little jade pendulum that I never felt comfortable with is supposed to give you a yes and a no. It’s supposed to be a communicator spiritually, right?

but it just, wasn’t for me and I knew it. I loved it, but I didn’t use it for that purpose. And I thought I had it in my backpack with me on that trip. So he said, you have to give a gift. Immediately this came to mind and I trusted that.

And I went and searched, I almost tore this backpack apart looking for it, wasn’t there. And I said, I know what I have to give. And he said, okay, it doesn’t matter. Go to the town, pick something nice, something like peyote jewelry, all the artisans, you know, which old people make them. And I said, that’s beautiful, that’s exactly what I’ll do. So I picked this neck or this bracelet. And it was exactly as he described it.

Anyway, we went up the mountain to do the ceremony and by the time I got there, again, it was not there, you know, and these tricks were happening, these strange things. And it’s because I knew what I needed to offer and I knew that I needed to put that jade stone in the ground. So anyway, the facilitator said, I’ll offer this on your behalf. And I thought, fine, you go ahead. But I know what I have to do.

Anyway, when I got back home, it was winter and there’s no way I could put anything in that ground. But in the spring when everything came through for ayahuasca and they said, don’t worry, we’ll stay with you during this, you know, this dialogue in my journey, I came home and by that time it was spring and I put that jade stone in the ground and boom, all day dialogue. So.

Ayahuasca was talking lots every day.

Sam Believ (16:56)

Sorry, I don’t understand. What happened after you put Jade into the ground?

Rebecca Hayden (17:00)

then the dialogue kicked in, like all day long. Yeah, so I was having the kind of dialogue that you do in medicine journeys in my everyday life, and it was just ongoing.

Sam Believ (17:14)

Sorry, we have lots of people that come to the retreat and then they want to get rid of some jewelry, throw it in the river, rings and stuff like that. That seems to be a pattern. And when did you start working with hypnosis? Was it before or after?

Rebecca Hayden (17:23)

interesting.

Yeah.

It was after because I was really compelled to tell my story and I did and I shared a lot of the things that I was being taught, you know, because this was a big part of that experience was, okay, we’re teaching you all this stuff and we want you to share this stuff with others. So I started doing that. I mean, I started a website and a blog and

and started speaking engagements that really terrified me at the time too. So it was a whole part of my integration, I guess too. And then people would ask me, well, you have all this guidance, isn’t that great? How can I do that? How can I get that going on? And I thought, well, good question because it’s not like we all know what’s going to happen with ayahuasca. We don’t. I couldn’t have predicted

this

was gonna happen to me. And it wasn’t easy either, you know, like during depression, I was very isolated because that happens sometimes to people who are depressed. They don’t wanna go out, they don’t wanna engage with the world. And then when I had all this dialogue going on all the time, I had to do the same thing because I had to kind of get a handle on it and try to learn to.

live a life when this was going on. And I had tons of questions. So there’s just this communing going on like all day and all night. So anyway, when people ask me about how can I connect in that way, I thought maybe this is what I need to do is to find a way to help people to do that, you know, in a way that’s less intense, perhaps. But

Just like with the medicine, we have to trust that it unfolds for everybody the way it’s meant to. Anyway, there was this guy that I came across who was doing these shows, and I’m not a big fan of that whole version of hypnosis, but at the time I was just so open and so curious, and I really wanted to understand the application of hypnosis as it pertained to helping people re-experience.

anything, you know, especially his thing was, hey, you know, you can re-experience a drug experience without, you know, having to do the drug. And of course, this was not something I was, you know, a big fan of. But I thought if you can do that, why can’t you re-experience ayahuasca or something else in a state that’s not as, you know, that’s more manageable, that you can do on a regular basis, you know, and

and reconnect and help with integration, help us live the lives that we need to live when we come back from this magical experience, right?

So ultimately that’s what I did. We had a few nights that we put together where we helped people re-experience their ayahuasca journeys. So that was interesting. And I do help people do that too when they come away going, I’m not really sure what the message there was, or I want to go back to explore something else, or, and so I can help people do that now. And, and the guidance thing too. So in those states, we can make those kinds of connections.

and that’s why I got into hypnosis because ultimately that’s what I wanted to help people do and do a lot of other things that happen in the medicine and yeah that sort of thing so it’s pretty amazing tool.

Sam Believ (21:11)

It sounds very cool and also very scary. What are the similarities or differences, main differences between the ayahuasca trance states and the hypnosis states?

Rebecca Hayden (21:14)

you

The difference is that, first of all, when people go into hypnosis, most people don’t even realize they’re under. You know what I mean? They know what’s going on. And the trick is to not. The trick is to focus more deeply within and not pay attention to the external stuff, right? But they do know, and people feel safer that way. And so…

they start to realize that they have control over this to some degree and that when they allow themselves to to let go it’s an intentional thing and it’s something that they can navigate intentionally so that’s a difference there’s a lot of similarities but the intensity isn’t there as much you know so people will get you know

more than visions, it’s a full on journey. So animals will show up. You know, when I intentionally go in and help them make spiritual connection, they’ll get the dialogue and the guidance and the weirdness sometimes, you know, this figure showed up and here’s what it looked like. And what does that mean? And I try to help people just focus on the things that have to do with

with helping them in their lives. It’s like, this is what we want. We want you to focus on things that are gonna help you.

live a better life and have a better experience here. Things that are pertinent to you and important for you. And all the magic is great and I think it has a place and we don’t always know exactly what all of it means and I don’t know if there is meaning for all of it. And sometimes there is and if that feels important to a person we can delve into it. But I try to get them to focus on things that are going to help them in their lives and there’s not a lot of difference. It’s just less intense really.

Sam Believ (23:21)

We had one lady and she’s a hypnotherapist and she works with groups and she knows a lot about the topic and she came to the retreat. One thing I can say, I’m not gonna mention her name, but she was, I’ve never seen anyone drink that much ayahuasca in a way that she would not be able to walk and she would ask us to help carry her to the altar so she could take another cup. So her body gave in, but her mind was still.

still active and after that we had to come up with the rule that unless you can walk up and take a cup you cannot take another cup.

Rebecca Hayden (23:57)

Wow, that’s

very interesting. I think that, you know, a lot of people pursue things because they want to deal with their own issues. We all do, really, you know.

I know I did, but with hypnosis, it was more like a tool to keep going what I was already doing, you know, all the journeying and the energy healing and all of those things. But it surprises me, but everybody’s got their own journey, you know, maybe that’s something that she needed to experience for herself to learn something about herself. I know I keep learning about myself and that’s ongoing and it’s a good thing.

Sam Believ (24:38)

So I know you focus a lot on the integration side of things and after you had your ayahuasca experiences, other plant medicine experiences, how was your own integration journey and what lessons have you picked up there to share with our audience?

Rebecca Hayden (25:00)

There were so many. There were just so many and they’re ongoing. Becoming just more aware of myself was number one. And of course self-love, just, it has to be there.

But everybody’s journey to self-love is unique to who they are, what they’ve been through, where they’re at in life, all of those things. There I was with the young son and this just constant dialogue and these energies that were coming up in me, these harsh, edgy things that I knew I had to release and

I was being guided through all this, which was helpful, but it was really challenging. So I was in situations where, you know, it’s daily life and I’m, you know, putting breakfast on the table for my son and this edgy stuff is like really, you know, coming down hard on me. And I know he can feel it. And I’m like, don’t worry, honey, it’s gonna go, you know, and.

These later, and I couldn’t make sense of it at the time necessarily, but later, and now I realize that these are energies we’ve picked up for, you know, periods of, long periods of time through family, you know, through even other lives.

We have to be open to intentionally releasing them if we don’t want them to play a role in how we experiencing things here now in our daily lives. And these are strange concepts to get to used to. And I delve deeply into some of it and other stuff I was cautioned not to go into. You know, let’s just heal and focus on your everyday life. You know, the things that you want to change and everything that we feel we can’t have or we would like to have.

there’s always something inside of us that’s working against us that we have to change. And so it’s been a constant, you know, sort of road of doing those things. So my relationship with everybody around me had to change. I had to stop playing the roles that I was playing with those people. So, you know, I think most people have had

experiences with family members or friends where things weren’t as even or as healthy as they could be. And often in our society and many others, the focus is on the other person. that person’s a, you know, fill in the blank.

But with my integration path, it was all about what role am I playing? How am I participating in that? So with this particular person, for a long period of time, this message kept coming in every time I interacted or even thought about this person. The message was don’t participate, don’t participate, don’t participate over and over and over and over again until I had to face like, OK, what am I doing? What’s that participation? And I did get a sense of it because this message was so strong.

I had to just step back and go, so what was I about to do, you know, when that message came through? And then I started to just learn a lot about myself. You know, my whole integration was about learning about myself and journeying is a great way to do that because we’re no longer just think, think, thinking. We go into experiential stuff and we get nuanced feelings about these things. And with my integration path, because of this,

connection. I was doing all that all day long, I was having these feelings, you know, something would be going down and just an everyday experience. And yet my feeling about it was really

intense and deep and I knew, okay, this may seem pass off as acceptable in my life before, but now I know it’s really not good stuff and I’ve got to do something about it. But I would still have to do the work like everybody else. So, you know, what’s going on? What was my part in it? How can I change that part? Where’d that come from? Let’s go there and find out and heal it, you know.

Sam Believ (29:12)

So it seems that in your case, you get a very clear guidance as in like don’t interact with this person, don’t engage. But for someone, let’s say somebody just had their first ever ayahuasca experience and they’re having trouble going back to their normal life, like what would be the practical steps for them to integrate? Like anything specific that you would recommend to do or?

Rebecca Hayden (29:40)

Well, I mean, it really depends on the situation. know, I mean, everybody’s so unique. And the reason I love working with hypnotic journeying is because somewhere inside of that person, they do know what they need to do. You know, sometimes you learn utterly abusive situations that they have to leave, but there has to be steps even there.

And, or, or they’re in a dangerous situation, they have to get out. don’t know. This is like, hypothetical and with each person, there’s different circumstances. There might be a child involved, but this don’t participate wasn’t, you know, don’t interact with this person. was don’t participate in the way that I was. So I had a friend who was in an abusive situation and it was verbal abuse, which is not to be taken lightly.

But I counseled her in the same way, like don’t participate in the way that you do. Don’t respond to those things, you know, don’t.

involve yourself in his rants of whatever they are. And she was able to leave him because she was no longer playing a role in that abuse. She was no longer receiving it and responding. And of course that made him, you know, get very frustrated and things had to come to a head so that she could leave, so that she could see very clearly instead of participating in it.

And that’s an extreme version. There’s all kinds of all subtle experiences that we have socially with other people when we come back and some of us feel it more intensely. And then it’s just time to start to look within and start to realize what’s our part and what’s happening if we don’t like it. And stop focusing on all these other people and focus on our own.

role in what’s going on and start to change that. Discover where that’s from. That’s just the go-to thing. No matter what was happening, even when I was really getting a lot of dialogue, no matter where I wanted to go in my mind to say I couldn’t do something because that’s going on, but that’s happening, these are very real things, it would just continually bring back to me, continually. And I thought, I have to surrender to this or I’m going to go out of my mind. And so finally I did. then

I just learned a lot, you know, and people can learn a lot when they create the intention to do so, you know, and that has to be a very.

definite decision, you know, I’m going to not blame everybody else anymore. No matter how badly they may be behaving, I’m going to understand, you know, what my role is, because I can, I can change myself and just keep going in that direction. Even our intention to do that is extremely powerful. And once we work with medicines, I believe they do continue to work with us when we reach out to them in our minds and say, I’m ready. Let’s, let’s do this, you know, show me, tell me.

Let’s go.

Sam Believ (32:37)

Mm-hmm.

Thank you for that answer. At your podcast, you interview a lot of people about their ayahuasca experiences and their integration journey. Have you been able to figure out or what is your opinion on how the ayahuasca healing works? How does it happen? Is there any patterns that you’ve noticed?

Rebecca Hayden (33:06)

Yeah, I mean, that’s a big one, right? Because it’s so different for everybody. It really is. I mean, I’m sure you have experienced this where people come and they feel like, okay, nothing happened for me, you know, because they didn’t get the big, you know, visions and all the rest of it. And then they go home and sometimes, surprisingly, things do change. Or sometimes they have to discover they’re very close down or who knows what. But

I think it’s just really different for everyone. And the only explanation that I can give about how that medicine works with people without going into the science end, which is not my forte, is it connects with that part of us that is connected to everything else and shows us how we can become aware of that, be more.

in a more knowing state and in a more loving state so that all those things we want to happen outside of ourselves.

are related to that. And once we see that and agree to start changing that intentionally, it’s no different than the integrative process. I think that that’s what ayahuasca does. It just has a different language. people have visions that they don’t always understand. And things happen emotionally and bodily. And, you know, it may seem alarming from the outside or even from the inside. But ultimately, I think that this is

the purpose, even dark experiences which I’ve had and I still have at times in and out of the medicines.

In the end, if I relent and I say, okay, I’m not gonna play the role of victim here, you it doesn’t mean you don’t always get help, you can. But if you agree to say, to be curious and say, you know, what’s going on here? You know, like with the medicine, we have to agree to go into the experience. Knowing that we don’t know what it’s gonna be like, it could be really challenging, but we have to agree to do it.

So I think there is an agreement with the medicine. Some people don’t always make it successfully. That if we agree to surrender to it, to work with it and to discover these things about ourselves, that’s what this medicine can do. And so much more that we have no words to describe, you know, there are some people who are very unique and they’re meant to discover all kinds of things that, you know, seem very strange to other people. And integration can also play a role there where you come back

and you feel like an alien in a strange world, you know? And then it’s about navigating that, you know, and it can be done. I don’t know if I answered your question. It’s a big one. I don’t, I’m still trying to answer that question myself, right?

Sam Believ (35:56)

Yeah.

It is a question that I ask often to people that work with ayahuasca a lot because I would like to be able to explain it better to people as well when they ask me. And the experience that you described that, you know, for someone that arguably have not connected, but then their life has changed significantly, I actually have a podcast.

episode with one of the guests that came to Loira and he left after four ceremonies feeling that nothing happened to him just to come home and realize that Everyone else noticed that he changed and then his depression went away So he reached out to me asking me to send him a logo of Loira because he wanted to tattoo it That’s how significant it was for him. But at the time he was here. He was completely convinced that nothing happened. So

I think I was, is this.

Rebecca Hayden (36:55)

This is the same with hypnosis

too, with hypnotic journeying. And, you know, I worked with someone once who described this whole scenario that he wanted to happen in his life, but had a hard time really letting go in going into those states. then later, you know, we were friends and we were chatting and he started to talk about all these opportunities that were coming his way and changes he made in his life and didn’t relate them at all to all of those things.

that we were intentionally working on through journey. But some people, they can’t wrap their head around it. It doesn’t mean it doesn’t work, that it can’t work for them and with them, which is magical in and of itself.

Sam Believ (37:38)

Yeah, something

very similar along those lines is when after the ceremony we have a word circle and people are sharing and somebody says, well, I didn’t have any experience and then they go ahead and share for five minutes a very perfect ayahuasca experience. It’s just that it was not the experience they have been expecting based on the video they seen on the internet or what the highlight reel their friend told them about their ayahuasca experiences.

Rebecca Hayden (37:53)

Yeah

Sam Believ (38:08)

And that’s kind of part of the guidance, just constantly working with those expectations. Like we just had a new group arrive yesterday and today I was talking to them exactly about that and telling them, you know, do not let your intention become your expectation because that’s not how ayahuasca works. In your podcast, what are the more sort of

incredible stories or what are your favorite stories of healing that you recall and anything that comes to mind?

Rebecca Hayden (38:46)

Scott’s a difficult one.

That’s a really difficult one. The stories that I gravitated towards were the ones where people had on the spot lessons because I related to that because those were the experiences that I was having and I was trying to and you know what it’s like when you have this crazy experience and someone else says, me too. And you go, wow, that’s great. But the reason I liked it too is because

When we learn things through medicine and it’s so beautiful and deep and there’s this deep wonderful knowing in that moment of the truth of the matter and then we go back to these lives, it can be very difficult to bring ourselves back to that place.

of understanding how this is playing out in our lives, especially with really close family. And there was one story with a woman with children. I thought I can relate to this so much because that’s the most challenging relationship. And she was describing this in the moment, feeling like, wait a minute.

I got to stop right here and right now and not go into that mode that I usually go into. And she was having just this download as she was, as the behavior was just about to happen, you know, and she stopped it cold and, and responded differently. And to me, that’s, that’s the kind of magic that I’d like to see happen in this world more. And I do think that we can bring it about. So there’s a client that I had.

that started working with me and then, you know, had this spiritual connection in the journey.

And then we invited those things. So we do that intentionally in these journeys sometimes if people are open to it and say, you know, will you invite, you know, this kind of guidance, like on the spot? Yes. And so this client was in a particular professional experience where situation where normally, you know, he would have made one decision, but at that moment instantly, it was like, no, you know what? I’m going to go in this direction. And it was far more bold, far more.

fulfilling and worked out beautifully. And those are the stories that I like the most because we could really use that in this world. Otherwise it’s all theoretical. There are certainly other stories about how people come back into their lives and realize, wow, I’ve been focusing on all the wrong things. I need to be a more loving person because that…

feels better, not because everybody will think better of me or, you know, out of guilt or shame or any of those things, just because I know this is the way to be and that’s a truth that will never leave me kind of thing. And that’s a theme that you’ll hear through many, stories, right? People know, they know, you know, the obvious thing that is the elephant in the room. Suddenly they come back to the life and realize how important it is and how fundamental it is to every human being. Right.

Sam Believ (41:59)

Yeah, it’s ayahuasca is a shadow medicine. So a lot of times it reveals to us What is hidden from us and then it becomes immediately obvious. It’s very interesting but You mentioned those immediate lessons and it is interesting that With ayahuasca sometimes for me personally I set an intention for the ceremony And I get a totally different answer and then the answer for this specific intention Comes to me in a ceremony two years later

It’s almost as if Ayahuasca and its perception of time is not as linear as ours. But there are cases where the lessons are immediate. Like in my case, a few months ago I had a ceremony and Ayahuasca taught me about patience and it was very timely because I was being really impatient and really kind of forcing things and…

It was very valuable. And of course, in this case, it’s like, that’s what people expect from Ayahuasca. You know, I come with the problem and it just gives me all the answers and I can then go ahead and never have this problem again. But even then the lesson that came through and I connected to it so powerfully faded away and it’s kind of hard to connect to that state on demand. And I guess this is where integration comes through. But when you’re…

when you’re running a retreat and you’re so busy, you almost interestingly enough have to sacrifice your own integration in order for other people to have good experiences.

Rebecca Hayden (43:37)

Well, not necessarily, you know, I mean, everything is part of it too. I learned a lot about myself through working with clients too, and it never stops. But so what I would recommend is you to find out what’s the root of that impatience, you know, and discover that and go there deeply and heal that intentionally. Because, you know,

There’s a lot of the reason why we call it a medicine is because the behavior that we’ve become so accustomed to is a sickness. And when we regard it as a sickness, it’s not a bad thing because then we can wait. First of all, there’s no judgment around it. We don’t judge someone for getting a cold. And we have more compassion.

and this is the way that we can be with others. This is the way that we can be with ourselves. So early on when I had like all of this dialogue and a lot of it starting to focus on me and my behavior.

And I realized how judgmental I was about myself, you know. And in fact, there was a tremendous fear in some ways of going to certain places because of the fact that I knew then I would have to judge myself. You know, if I admitted this about myself, then I have to go through all the self-flagellation that would inevitably follow. And so…

I think there was even a learning process with this presence that was teaching me that I wasn’t ready for certain things then, you know, the introduction was important. And then the process of, okay, what are the fears that are getting in the way of this person learning about themselves? Let’s, let’s heal that first, you know? And I think that’s sometimes what we perceive as the timing issue. It has to do with, where we’re at and what we’re not ready for just yet and giving us what we are ready for and really need in the moment.

in at that time, you know, and we can’t dictate that.

Sam Believ (45:41)

Yeah, you don’t choose the lessons as we say, know, Ayahuasca gives you what you need and not what you want. You mentioned learning from others. I think that’s a really important part of the healing with Ayahuasca because if I could put a number on it, I would say here at the retreat, half of the healing comes from the medicine and the other half comes from the group and sharing and mutual support and

Rebecca Hayden (45:49)

Mm.

Sam Believ (46:10)

mirroring each other. What do you think about that about group setting versus sort of individual work with the medicine?

Rebecca Hayden (46:19)

Yeah, group dynamics are interesting because I think this is going on in our everyday life for sure. But when it’s in a group and when there’s medicine involved and whether you’re in that journey with the medicine or in between days, it’s still working. It’s magic. And things play out, you know.

in and amongst the people who are there to heal together. Even that intention is a really powerful thing. People come together to heal. And sometimes, I’m sure you’ve experienced this, where people will be triggered and even arguments and all kinds of strange things and strong emotions coming up. And people are provoking these things within one another so that they rise to the surface so that we can become aware of it and heal or not.

You know, people, we all have free will and people can decide, you know, no, I’m not ready to do that just yet. And that’s fine too, and to be respected. But it gives us that opportunity and in groups that can be very profound. There can also be tremendous challenges with people coming in that have a lot of dark stuff going on. But

I do believe, and this is coming from a person who’s been, you know, psychically attacked in ceremony that, you know,

I’ll list, there’s something going on there. It’s not random. You know, there’s a reason we end up in these situations that we do and finding that out. That’s the empowering part of it. You know, okay, so why did I invite that experience, you know, into my life? You know, what led to that? How can I change that and invite new, better experiences? You know, what does that teaching me? What is it helping me with? You know, these are the things you can also question when you go into any kind of journey.

or even create that intention in your life, you know?

Sam Believ (48:17)

Yeah, people provoking each other, sort of triggering each other and what I like to say is like the healing is not always pretty, it’s not always gonna be this beautiful experience. A lot of healing will come from the frustration that arises or if you felt, if you’re oppressed in emotion, you need to feel it first for it to finally leave you. So, and a lot of time the group does that together, but there seems to be an understanding that healing is happening and there is no…

no hard feelings afterwards.

Rebecca Hayden (48:51)

I have a story around that too. That just came to me if you’re okay with me sharing it.

So in ceremony, I’m sure you’ve been through all kinds of experiences and I’m gonna describe one that was very interesting. And it describes group dynamics too and group dynamics can play out in milder ways. But in the medicine, this one guy was obviously taken over by something.

And we had a really gifted shaman that was totally aware of what was going on. Let that person go through their experience. And he wasn’t really harming people at all. But he was going back and forth between this demonic presence that was, to me, it sounded funny, actually. It didn’t sound threatening or anything. But you knew it was dark.

And then there was this baby voice that he was going through at times too. And the whole time he’s deep in his medicine and experiencing whatever it is he’s experiencing. And any time the shaman felt he was in any way, he would do his thing. The shaman would send a message over and he was just, he was very, very talented. I felt so safe and I knew, he knew what he was doing. So.

Other people can get distracted when that happens, right? They’re trying to go into their own journey and their, noise is going on. And so the guidance that I received was let’s use this, you know, let’s have fun with it. So I was releasing a lot of things and I was doing so with the sounds this guy was making. And I was using those sounds to release this stuff from me. And it became like this video game and there was a vivid sort of imagery associated with it, but it was also agreement on my part.

to not freak out and to say, okay, how can I use this? Let’s go with this. And it became fun and funny and it was fun. And other people were just having this like, my God, I’m trying to heal here and da da. And that is their own journey too. If they allowed themselves to go in, they would probably find out things about themselves that made their experience more difficult as well.

And it doesn’t mean this guy wasn’t doing the things he was and that it couldn’t be potentially annoying. It’s just, so what do we do about that? This is what this voice constantly says all the time. What are you going to do about that? And gets me out of this wham, wham, wham mode and into, okay, let’s take action. And if I can’t, then let’s explore why and let’s do something with it, something useful and helpful.

Anyway, I felt that was a very interesting experience. The next day, the guy who went through all this stuff was talking about how much he learned, you know, and the judgments he had about people with dark behavior and how he didn’t have them anymore. And it was very interesting, very interesting stuff.

Sam Believ (51:55)

Yeah, it’s sort of like being a victim or adopting a creator mentality and just being like, can I do with this situation or what can I learn from it? It’s very valuable. So Rebecca, you work with documentaries before and I want to ask you for advice. This year, we’re going to be filming a documentary about ayahuasca. What do you think?

Rebecca Hayden (52:09)

Mm-hmm.

Sam Believ (52:25)

world needs to know about it. If let’s say if there was to be a documentary on Netflix about ayahuasca specifically, what what should it include?

Rebecca Hayden (52:40)

Well, to be honest, I think what we need to learn about is us, not the medicine. You know, what the impact the medicine has on us. I think that sometimes we can fall into the same trap that has happened with religions all over the world, where it becomes all about the God.

and not about who we are as people and what we’re doing here. And the same can be true of medicines. And I can see why that happens. It’s a pretty miraculous thing. And you are in awe. And that happens a lot. But I think when it comes right down to it, the medicines really do want us to just become better people and have better lives. And that’s the message that’s going to truly impact people. That’s really going to help them.

When we talk about others and what they’re doing or not doing or even the miraculousness of the medicine is a very inspiring thing. But how it can change people is far more inspiring. You know, the real stories of people’s lives, there’s a reason the Bible used stories. It’s a very powerful tool because we can relate to it. We can understand. And when we start seeing how people

you know, came into this situation one way and walked away with a very different set of ideas about what they wanted out of life and how they were going to achieve that and what they wanted for themselves and who they wanted to be. That’s the most profound story. Another thing is, especially when we work with cameras, people are at their most vulnerable.

and what they agree to when they’re going into an experience and right afterwards, and they’re in this really elevated state and then a month, a year down the road. It’s a whole different story. And I mean, it may be true of people who are not in those states, but even more so. So be very careful about that and know that.

Even though we’re trying what we’re trying to do what what I think we would all want to do for those of us who’ve ever tried wanted to convey the magic of this medicine to other people is to take an experience that happens inside of you and and share that with another person and it can’t be done the only way it can be done is through words and images that fall you know terribly short of of what the truth of of this experience can be but we are that truth and when we see people

change so dramatically. You know, we have this discussion a lot on the podcast or we have in the past where

people come out of these experiences with what my friend termed like evangelistic fervor. Everybody’s got to do this medicine and I understand it. really do. But I don’t think that’s the way to go about it. They settle down eventually, you know, and they realize, wow, OK, I don’t know if that’s true, first of all, because it’s not for everybody. It’s wonderful. And I hope and I know a lot of people will pursue it. But

The rules that apply, the way that we’ve been going about things has to change. So in this, the same thing is true. People don’t change because you come out and say, everybody’s got to do this. People want to do the medicine because they see someone changed. And they know and experience the truth of that.

and then they know within themselves they need to change. That’s what makes people want to do medicine, not people raving about it. People actually change and then experience it. Yeah, yeah, and it’s understandable, it really is. Like I totally get it, but you know.

Sam Believ (56:18)

Yeah, I call it, I call it ayahuasca zealot stage.

Yeah,

so lead by example, don’t force people. Once they see how you change your life, then they will change as well. This is very valuable feedback. So make a documentary more about people and less about the ayahuasca. Rebecca, so we’re coming closer to the end of the show. Any parting words, any recommendations to people, and most importantly, work and define more about you.

Rebecca Hayden (56:57)

Well, my website is Rebecca Hayden.com and my podcast is ayahuasca talks dot love. And yeah, you can find out more about working with me there. You can reach me at reach dot Rebecca at me.com. I’m on LinkedIn.

I’m not as active on any other social media really. But once you go on my website, you can find me easily. yeah, just, you know, when it comes to ayahuasca, it’s like a relationship. And I think the best way we can approach it, any relationship is with openness, trust and love. And, you know, the same thing is true of our experience in the universe itself that

or having this relationship with the outer world. And I think the same rules apply pretty much.

Sam Believ (57:56)

Thank you, Rebecca. Thank you for sharing your story and your knowledge with us. Guys, you’ve been listening to Alaska podcast and I will see you in the next episode.

Rebecca Hayden (58:09)

Thank you so much.

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with Lauren Taus, a licensed clinical therapist specializing in addiction and trauma treatment. Lauren is licensed in both New York and California and integrates alternative treatment modalities such as trauma-sensitive yoga and psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy into her practice. She is the founder of Embodied Life, a platform offering psychotherapy, psychedelic training, and retreats aimed at supporting personal transformation.

We touch upon topics such as:

• Lauren’s journey into psychedelics and healing (00:40 – 03:40)
• The importance of knowing the source of Ayahuasca (05:43 – 07:10)
• Healing eating disorders with Ayahuasca (08:06 – 09:29)
• The role of integration in psychedelic work (12:12 – 13:37)
• Morning routines and their impact on mental health (15:07 – 16:39)
• Ayahuasca and grief processing (16:52 – 19:45)
• Navigating intergenerational trauma with Ayahuasca (28:20 – 29:47)
• The balance between Western medicine and plant medicine (39:02 – 42:51)
• Facilitator responsibilities and Ayahuasca retreat safety (30:22 – 34:43)
• The importance of community in healing (50:41 – 53:57)
• Internal Family Systems therapy and psychedelics (54:22 – 57:29)

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats, go to http://www.lawayra.com.

Find more about Lauren Taus at http://www.embodiedlife.com, on Instagram at @lauren.taus or @embodiedlifetherapy.

Transcript

Sam Believ: You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast.com.

Lauren Taus: My experience with this medicine is that there’s a lot of intergenerational content that can be pre presented and that there’s a lot of guidance that can be presented. Now, of course, I’m speaking about my own personal experience. There are many folks who don’t have as much vision as I have, and that doesn’t mean that ayahuasca is like better or worse for anyone, right?

Like certain people have much more somatic experiences. I can get very visual and get very clear directions. And for me, it’s very much a conversation and it’s a deep relationship for me. It’s absolutely the case that folks can get lots of counsel and content around what has been generational patterns and what their role can be to both honor and sever what is no longer functioning, and also to kinda continue in the ways of the good.

But the vine knows everything. The leaving the vine, they know, like she knows whatever you wanna call. I don’t even. There’s so much that’s beyond language in this conversation.

Sam Believ: Hi guys, and welcome to Ayahuasca podcast. As always, we did the whole samie. Today I’m joined by Lauren Taos. Lauren is a licensed clinical therapist specializing in addiction and trauma treatment with licenses in both New York and California. In her practice, Lauren integrates alternative treatment modalities, including trauma sensitive yoga and psychedelic assisted psychotherapy.

Lauren is the founder of Embodied Life, a platform offering psychotherapy, psychedelic training, and retreats aimed at supporting personal transformation. I talked to Lauren about the topics of overcoming anorexia, sustainability of ayahuasca integration and daily rituals, her processing loss of her mother.

Death as a teacher, embracing emotions, shared group healing, internal family systems, and much more. Enjoy this episode. This episode is sponsored by Lara Ayahuasca, retreat. At Lara, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity. Lara Connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you.

Lauren, welcome to the show.

Lauren Taus: Thank you so much, Sam. Happy to be here.

Sam Believ: Lauren, before we begin, tell us a little bit about your story and specifically how did you end up working with AB medicines?

Lauren Taus: Huh the, I like most stories, mine, mine is started with my own suffering. I was not a happy kid.

I was painfully good. I was really very much committed to being perfect and. Perfection is pretty strangulating and straight jacketing. And that, if any child is as good as I was, I would be very concerned. The children should be testing boundaries and exploring and not so concerned with achievement and excellence.

And of course that was a mask for trying to feel okay. My parents, bless them, beautiful beings, beautiful souls loved me very much. And they also had their own human challenges, which of course impacted me very deeply. And formed my primary architecture, which I needed to reorganize, do some interior design and building kind of redevelopment.

I was I consider myself the unlikely drug girl. I was not engaging in any sort of psychoactive explorations in high school or college. I was far too busy being skinny and good, getting straight a’s doing what I thought I was supposed to do. And drugs were nowhere near that list. I was also, as part of my perfectionism, an almost successful anorexic.

And I say that because I think the the mission of anorexia is suicide in a very slow way. And I can remember thinking to myself, bones would be too big. I would be too much space to take up. So I I was doing everything I learned about around taking care of myself and coming back to life.

I was the walking dead for much of my existence. And therapy helped a lot. Yoga helped a lot. And much later in my life, I was admitted to a journey. And I was with my brother and it was very powerful. And I had been very resistant. My brother had invited me many times to go and have an experience with him, and I was scared of that.

This would affect my diet and my boot, my body. I was like, nah, I’m not gonna do that. But eventually I said yes. And, I went flying through the doors, I knew that this would be part of my life. I started in a place and with medicines that I no longer sit with I, I’ve started naive like everybody else and have learned a lot along the way.

I have blown the wings of many things. Many times they have shown me and grown me. And I have a really beautiful relationship, psychoactive plants and compounds. Of course it’s been my most favorite. Bless the vine of the healing vine. I’m very passionate about ayahuasca. I feel it’s a privilege of a lifetime to, to drink this medicine and to commune with this medicine.

And more and more I’m learning about how to give back to it because it’s one thing to, to be served and to have your life supported by this very powerful life force. And at the same time the medicine wants our care and partnership needs it actually. Yeah I have received unfathomable levels of healing from this medicine that like, bring me to my knees and tears and of thanks. And yeah there’s a lot to say, but I think I’ll leave it at that.

Sam Believ: Thank you Lauren. Thank you for sharing your story. Whatever you did, and I believe you showed the viewers, your, the ayahuasca vine that you’re having, and for those of you who will see the video version of it yeah, you look pretty good, given given your story and the eating disorders it worked for you.

So congratulations. And I’m always happy to see somebody’s life change, not just by ayahuasca, obviously you did a lot of work. I can imagine. But facilitated by ayahuasca, it’s interesting that you mentioned being an unli, unlikely drug addict or unlikely drug person.

That’s how I define myself for sure. ’cause I always thought, before, long ago when I thought Ayahuasca was a drug, I was like you do drugs and you end up under the bridge and your life was over for me. Ayahuasca was a first ever psychedelic experience and first ever back before I thought it was a drug first ever drug experience, so to speak.

I don’t believe that anymore. So obviously you mentioned that you worked with Ayahuasca, you’re a big fan. Talk to us about that. Was that ceremony with your brother, was it with ayahuasca? Or how did you start knew, you said that you did things wrongly and you wouldn’t do it again.

Maybe you can give some words of warning for the beginners in this space.

Lauren Taus: Yeah. The, I, one of the things I’ve really learned along this path is that it’s very important to know where your medicine is coming from. And, to create one liter of the tea of the ayahuasca tea that we drink in ceremony, it takes like hundreds of pounds of biomass, of plant matter.

And it takes this beautiful vine five to seven years to mature. So your facilitator should be part of regeneration projects for them to be serving responsibly. Like it’s really important for people to know where their medicine is coming from. The providence is incredibly important. And I think that I didn’t, I had of course had no idea to even speak about that when I started and I started in a circle that was not ayahuasca.

He was often folks ask me where do you need to have other experiences first before you drink ayahuasca? No, not necessarily. I don’t think that’s required. I do think that a certain amount of inner resourcing is required. I think that the circle really needs to be incredibly well held.

I have seen and heard many bad and nightmarish stories around people drinking medicine and not being cared for and the medicine not being cared for. Those are happening concurrently. If the if the medicine isn’t cared for, then the space isn’t gonna be cared for, then people are cared for.

And as I mentioned, I work with ketamine, I’m trained with MDMA and other tools. I think all of the medicines have their own space in place. But for me I am my, my teacher is Ayahuasca and I have a teacher who knows this path. It is very connected to her teachers and the son.

And I, I think that, I came later to Ayahuasca after having worked with other medicines, and I was very scared of Ayahuasca. And I think that people should be scared of ayahuasca. It’s scary. It’s a lot. It’s like big leagues for sure. And I like that. If you change the letters around just a little bit, the words scared is the same as sacred.

Whenever I’m stepping into a moloca or an air temple for a ceremony, I’m reverent I, and in that comes a wholly dread, there’s a certain amount of trepidation that is appropriate, right? And then I wish that I walked the world that way. ’cause we’re in this mystical garden of all times.

Of course, when you drink medicine, like you’re opening up to deeper levels of existence and capacity building content. But, I was in quite a lot of pain when I said yes to the, for the first time to ayahuasca. I was really grappling with my weight. I’ve always been thin, but, I would marry too much of my worth to the number that I read on a scale.

And, the fluctuations were overwhelming to me. Mind you, they were maybe a pound and a half. But I was like tortured by this. And a very close friend of mine who sat in other medicine circles with me and who doesn’t particularly love Aya. But heard me and said, listen, like this might be your time to go.

And so I said yes. And my first experience was very powerful and profound. And it really helped me to get off the scale and to stop weighing myself. I got the memo, it’s time to retire your extra small life. To be so concerned about half a pound is insane. And to put so much of my life force and energy in something so small, and Ayahuasca gave me a whole download, a whole curriculum around the importance and also the sovereignty of choice, which, medicine was like you don’t have to, but if you don’t like, your life will remain small.

And my life did get really big when I followed direction.

Sam Believ: Yeah. IAS is really good for anorexia or at least the very few examples that I personally have. ’cause we had the girl, she came to our retreat. Six months or so ago. And she since then gained a lot of weight. She’s actually back now. She wants to gain even more weight than she even actually wants to volunteer.

But I told her I told her she needs to gain five kilos to be able to volunteer and she already overpassed that number. And it’s important that you talk about the sustainability of ayahuasca as well. In our case, like my shaman and his family, they have 50 hectares of land and they grow their own ayahuasca.

So it’s not poached. But the interesting thing I think a lot of people don’t know about is for ayahuasca to grow, it needs a tree. So if you have a farmland and you wanna grow ayahuasca, you actually, you’re forced to grow a, somewhat of a jungle first, and then the vines grow around it.

But yeah, in some places they still poach it and it is found in the wild. So it is important to know where it’s coming from. But even more important, core, the people that plant it and what are the intentions and do they follow the rituals and when harvesting it and cooking it, and basically every step is important.

So yeah, this is where I think I, I find myself like really finding a lot of comfort in having this indigenous tradition to rely upon. And this is very genius that you said about sacred and scared. I’m definitely gonna be using it. I never heard this before, but Totally true. No matter how many times you drink ayahuasca, when you’re about to drink it again, you’re like, ’cause you never know what’s gonna happen.

Lauren Taus: We’re building our capacity. It’s, this is, it’s a, it is a physical, emotional experience. It’s not, your mind is off, right? There’s I love when I reach a place where there’s no thinking. I am just a vessel to receive the divine and in a curriculum that is specific to my soul and has only given me like tremendous amount of fortitude and care.

This medicine is only benevolent, and I have had very hard experiences very terrifying experiences very painful experiences, and they’ve all been benevolent. They’ve all been like for me, and have softened me and widened my city for really what matters.

Sam Believ: The painful experiences and the difficult ones are sometimes where most of the work is done.

People are afraid of them. But if you don’t re resist them, and if you go through them, you come out a little better each time. Obviously Ayahuasca helped you, but I know you say that you cannot just ayahuasca your problems away. So what is that mysterious work that people need to do after the ayahuasca?

Can’t talk about that.

Lauren Taus: And I don’t drink ayahuasca every day. For me, it’s a special occasion. And I do get very specific guidance from the medicine. And then it’s very important for me to deepen my listening and aligning with the information that I receive, right? So they, integration is the name of the game, right?

Integration, what does that even mean? It shares the same etymology as the word integrity. It’s about our wholeness. And so how do we on a daily level practice that, like practice the council, the good council that these sacred plants give us For me that, that’s looks like many different things.

I, myself, I’m in practice of my offerings. I’m a therapist. I go to therapy, right? I work with internal family systems, which dovetails really beautifully with psychedelic work and certainly with the work of ayahuasca. I also, I pray and meditate every day. I sing, ayahuasca very early on.

Wanted me to sing. And one of the greatest gifts, and there have been countless, but one of the greatest ones that I received from my time in ceremony is the gift of song and making my life sing. So I sing every day, and for me, song is prayer. It’s a way, a deep way of praying. It’s not a performance, right?

I think that song and dance have become so bastardized in our culture that they don’t look good or sound good. We think they’re not good, which is absolutely not true. It’s an offering and we all get to do that. And so I sit and I pray and meditate and read poetry and sing songs and read, for my sitter, I’m Jewish and I sit in a specific tradition that is very amenable to your own tradition.

What is your tradition? What do you practice, what do you believe? What were your ancestors’ practices? And do you wanna continue along with them? Play the guitar, like these different things. And then of course, if you get counsel, like you need to do something, you wanna sit with that before you go immediately do it.

But if it’s aligned and right, go do it. Do the holy homework. It’s not, I’m gonna do it for you. Alka is not going to do it for you. You still have to like, okay, got the memo. Now I need to, at the, for me, for example, when I started, like I had to eat more, I had to get rid of my scale.

I had to make changes in my life that were hard, but I was, resourced and supported by the root and the vine.

Sam Believ: So you said you mentioned that your morning routine is yoga, meditation reading poetry and things like this. Why do you say that your morning routine is essential?

I’ve heard you saying that

Lauren Taus: having a morning practice for me gives me a scaffolding to support the navigation of my life. Why life is wild. Life is unpredictable. Life is excruciating and exquisite. It’s brutal and beautiful. It’s like everything I love life. I’m like madly in love with it.

And you get thrown curve balls. The, there’s pain. There’s there’s sickness, there’s death. There’s stuff that shows up. And if I don’t have a scaffolding that can hold me in any weather including sunshine, right? Like how do I stay present to the sun on my skin, right when the kiss of the breeze?

Like how do I enjoy that? For me the scaffolding allows more presence and invites that it gives me like a home inside of my body and my spirit. And otherwise, I, we disintegrate our culture is very sick. I like to say, I’m tired of diagnosing fish and toxic waters.

Fish are fine. Like we are big water problem. For me how to, part of how I counteract the sickness of culture is by sitting and being well. So if, I’m not, if I’m not sitting.

Sam Believ: So you mentioned bad things and death amongst them, the but I know you also talk about death being a teacher.

Lauren Taus: Absolutely.

Sam Believ: Can you talk to us about that?

Lauren Taus: Yeah, absolutely. This is called the vine of the dead ayahuasca, and I’m much less interested in death than in, I’m much more interested in life but leading cause of death is life. We’re all gonna do that. And I think that the more we appreciate our finitude, the more invited we are to this game of life, to the majesty of our own existence and of existence itself.

I myself have been on the roller coaster the death rodeo. Couple times. My sister died of cystic fibrosis when I was 20. My mom died of pancreatic cancer when I was, I think I was maybe 34. And so being really close to people I love dying. I very hard, I actually, in a recent ayahuasca experience, I relived my mother’s dying process.

And there’s so much that I, and we as humans in, in the acuity don’t have the spaciousness or capacity to fully feel. And that then gets suppressed and repressed within us. It was it was a big lot of grief, and I think that grief can be orgasmic. I think it’s very fertile.

It’s rich and of course grief is also married, married in a good marriage to joy. But revisiting my mother’s death and dying was very healing for me. And of course, I was like weeping my face off. I thinks like signature Lauren Toes in Ayahuasca is like big grief and lots of laughter. Big grief and lots of, I’m always leader of the Giggle gang.

Like I like just giggling with myself. It’s so fun. But we live in a culture that wants to, or I do in the United States that really doesn’t do well with death. We don’t like to look at it or think about it. And when people die, we want it to be like tucked away and done. My mom’s experience is that people wanted her to be done with my sister’s death pretty quickly and didn’t really hold the space for the continuation of the relationship the continuation of the grief or primary loss.

And we have a lot of work to do around how we honor the dead and honor the process of death and dying and the elders. And I believe that this work of sitting with Ayahuasca is very helpful with that. And also in, in the maintenance of the relations that are no longer here in forum. I’ve had so many beautiful connections with my mother in, in ceremony and my relationship has deepened with her and has healed with her.

And it’s death is really an illusion in many ways, but it’s it’s a, it’s an illusion we really need to grapple with more directly.

Sam Believ: So you’re basically saying that your choice is to feel all the emotions. The good one, the bad ones don’t repress them. I definitely find that would work with ayahuasca.

Lauren Taus: Not the feelings are bad. Like we are, we’re conditioned and trained to think that certain emotions are bad, right? I think that anger, for example we have an anaphylactic allergy towards, so it gets super weird. It gets really weird, if we can, and if we can manage conflict better, which of course includes anger, boundary violations.

Then we have the opportunity for peace. Peace requires mastery, conflict. It’s not bad. Like we’re ecosystems. Each one of us and complicated ones at that we have our own conflict inside. And how we then bring ourselves to one another and to the earth itself, right? We should be grieving grief practices are essential.

I love grief and yeah I want everyone to really open more fully to their emotional lives. Like we’re emotional beings. This is a feeling universe. We get stuck upstairs and thank God for our cognitive capacities, but we need to marry our minds to our hearts and our bodies and live in a more integrated way.

Sam Believ: The stuck upstairs is, thinking too much. The opposite would be feeling more. How does one do it, let’s say. I ask or not any advice? How does one get unstuck?

Lauren Taus: Quite literally move. I think movement is really essential. When I started my work as a psychotherapist I had very little skill because of course I was just beginning and at the time I was also teaching yoga. And yoga was in a really important and continues to be a very helpful tool for me to get into my body, to unlock whatever it is that I’m experiencing that might wanna be tucked away based on whatever pain I’m trying to get away from.

But moving our bodies consciously, dance, yoga, running, this is all very helpful. I think dance is really a good medicine. And listening to evocative music I find that can be very helpful as well. Time and nature. A lot of people live in concrete jungles with soundtracks of honking horns instead of crickets like you’ve got going on back there in Columbia.

And just putting our nervous systems into places that have a different kind of clamor than urban environments, I think can invite us into deeper levels of listening, which is generally an emotional process. And and it’s also not a one size fits all protocol or process.

Many of us are like deeply armored against our emotions for good reason. And I think it’s important to be respectful of the defense and to work with kindness care and respect towards defense versus just trying to bulldoze internally. Like how do we befriend our challenges and the parts that may want us to not feel so much.

Sam Believ: You mentioned losing your mother and then processing that loss in the ceremony as well. Have you ever been able I’ve heard stories, many stories of people being able to get in touch with the lost ones, say the lost parting words or receive a message. Have you ever had these kinds of experiences?

Lauren Taus: Not like that. I feel like the way of my mother’s death was very complete for me. I have deepened my relationship with her. I have, I was very angry at my mom and she, she had a very traumatic existence. She maintained a beautiful spirituality. A lot of resilience and simultaneously she was very traumatized and her trauma led her into an addiction.

I don’t like that word. But she was medicating to, to get away from her pain. She didn’t have anything else that worked better than that. And so for anybody who is in that kind of relationship with any sort of substance or behavior, we need to, get much more compassionate and curious.

So I’ve been able to replace my anger with compassion and curiosity and, my mother’s trauma was largely sexual. And so I’m, I became aware of the way in which I was just another person that took her dignity in my rage. And I can simultaneously honor my own anger towards her and restore the dignity and apologize.

And I’ve been able to, as her seedling, right? Like I, my mother lives in me, grieve what I feel she wasn’t able to grieve. Let more of that go through my body and feel her dancing and alive and pure within my system. And what a gift. What a gift. And my mother and I had ups and downs in our relationship.

I, I wanted more for her. I, and I was upset that that wasn’t happening. And I have been able to see her with all that she merited in this lifetime through ceremony. And and that, that’s been very corrective for my experience as a woman and also for my experience around relationship with the world and with other people

Sam Believ: by wanting more for her.

You mean you wanted her to maybe use some of the things you’ve learned yourself to improve the quality of her life or something else?

Lauren Taus: Yeah, for sure. I believe that. I don’t believe, I know that my mother would’ve lived longer with access to this kind of work. And I know that’s true for many people.

We are fools to think that our experiences don’t impact our bodies, right? Like my mom had pancreatic cancer. She was living with chronic stress. I thought, Bob, that’s not disconnected. I struggled with my mother’s lack of self-esteem and self-worth. Which was taken from her, it was taken from her and she had a hard time reclaiming it, right?

She had a lot of expensive therapy and treatment that made things worse. And I’ve seen that happen time and time again in my clinical practice. A lot of like treatment facilities and a lot of therapeutic interventions are shaming and blaming and do not help people reconstitute themselves at the site of injury.

Believe that psychedelic medicines can do that. And I wouldn’t necessarily have suggested ayahuasca for my mother, like she would’ve needed something like MDMA or something gentle, heart-centered, body-based ayahuasca is not,

Always gentle. She certainly can be gentle, but she’s not always gentle.

And I think that for folks who are interested in this it’s absolutely something you self-select into. But it’s this isn’t big work. This is this is big work. And I believe people need to like, have some kind of constitution for it. I wanted my mom to have more, more self-respect.

I wanted my mom to have more of a voice. I wanted her to stand up for herself. I wanted my mom to treat her body with more kindness. When we’re traumatized the body becomes a scary place to be. And my mom did not feel safe in her vessel. And I have so much compassion for that now, my God, and everything that she did to her body, in her body.

I get it and I have compassion for the younger me that was angry about that. And I can bring the consciousness of both of our higher selves together now and we’re just in a beautiful relationship when she’s with me. But I feel, again, as her seedling, like I’m standing up and speaking on her behalf.

And I’m healing like for us and for all the generations of women behind me that maybe didn’t have as much of a voice. Or as much sovereignty agency as I now have

Sam Believ: talking about the generations and intergenerational trauma. How can I asca be helpful there? Is it, has it been a thing, obviously you seem to know about that.

Lauren Taus: This medicine ab knows absolutely everything about everyone and their respective histories. It’s outrageous. And one of the things that I know is that I don’t know anything, right? You say you drink medicine, you know nothing. You think oh, this is my dose. No, you don’t know your dose.

You could have like a tiny biting tea, like out the races, soup cops pretty present, it’s like she’s doing, I’m gonna do what she’s gonna do. But my experience with this medicine is that there’s a lot of intergenerational content that can be presented and that there’s a lot of guidance that could be presented.

Now, of course. I’m speaking about my own personal experience. There are many folks who don’t have as much vision as I have, and that doesn’t mean that ayahuasca is like better or worse for anyone, right? Like certain people have much more somatic experiences. I can get very visual and get very clear directions.

And for me it’s very much a conversation and it’s a deep relationship for me. But it’s absolutely the case that folks can get lots of counsel and content around what has been generational patterns and what their role can be to both honor and sever what is no longer functioning.

And also to kinda continue in the ways of the good. But the vine knows everything. They’re leaving the vine. They know, like she knows whatever you wanna call. I don’t even, there’s so much that’s beyond language in this conversation.

Sam Believ: Yeah. And the other of the day, the ayahuasca will provide the necessary information.

It’s like I. Doesn’t need much of the inter intermediation except for somebody holding a safe space and

Lauren Taus: which Sam is a big deal and not one that is obvious. The amount of stories I’ve heard of people not being well cared for or supported in ceremony is incredible. It’s a huge thing to serve this medicine and to serve it well.

Sam Believ: Yeah. It happened to me personally. I’ve been I’ve been drinking medicine in the jungle and I was I went to purge in the bathroom and I closed the door and I went to do the bathroom realm. I don’t know if you’re familiar,

Lauren Taus: know the bathroom realm

Sam Believ: and I was stuck there and I, because it was a brick building where the metal door and I shut the door closed and I went very deep.

I, couldn’t do anything, couldn’t open the door. I was flailing around. I was hitting walls with my hands and I was trying to hitting my back on the bathroom. It was the only thing that I could control. ’cause this like down of the bathroom, like connected me to this realm dimension.

Yeah. I was stuck in some kind of mental loop where I could not regain my consciousness. It was a very unpleasant experience. And when I came out of it, another thing I was trying to do was, for some reason I really wanted to touch my brain. So I was like scratching my mouth and stuff like that. I I don’t wanna scare people away ’cause it only happened to be once, but it was a terrifying experience.

And when I came out of it, I found myself alone in the jungle in this bathroom. There was nobody in this house, there was nobody in Moloca. They’re just like, whatever. He is gonna do his thing. And I got PTSD after that for quite a bit. And it happened like few ceremonies after. One of my biggest, most beautiful ceremony ever.

The one that. Caused me to start LoRa, the was retreat that I run. So it was really shocking. It shows you there’s two world. So when I went ahead and started my retreat, we did everything the opposite way. For example we, in our bathrooms, we have a little space on the bottom that we can see and we can also open your door from outside if we need to, and things like that.

So basically doing the opposite. But yeah, there are places that don’t care about you or there are places that open openly wanna hurt you.

Lauren Taus: And I think there’s like a lot of people who are serving that just don’t know what to do just yet. It’s like you really need a tremendous amount of experience to serve in a good way, like a lot of experience.

And you, yourself, as a facilitator, need to really be a clean vessel and have, like that’s a big, it’s a big task. May maybe the biggest. Because what might present for folks is outrageous. Like it’s un, it’s unimaginable and it’s imaginable because it’s happening.

I have a lot of concern around that this issue and making sure that people are safe and cared for. Bathrooms of course should not be locked. Angels should be monitoring where everybody is. Nobody should be left alone after ceremony if they’re still in process, the, these kinds of things.

Like they should, nobody should be leaving the space very far. I think nobody should leave the location. I also think for folks who are new to drinking ayahuasca it, it can be really helpful to start with a North American facilitator because if you go straight to the Amazon, like they’re not gonna give you any information around like flight school or landing gear or how to integrate or think about what’s happening.

And, it’s such an. Outrageous shift to of consciousness. And I think people need a lot of handholding and education around how to make use of the, their time in the space and how to apply it in the aftermath. I think that people going to the Amazon and working tribes like they should do that, right?

Ayahuasca goes on global tours all the time, but she likes it when you go visit her at home. And you should do that when you’ve got some air miles. I think like when you really know what to do and you don’t need so much coaching or handholding. I think that people who are, sitting within their own tribal traditions, like it’s not their job to educate a North American person.

It’s not like it’s a they that, that so much of that kind of navigation information should already be present with the person, I believe.

Sam Believ: Yeah, it’s it’s interesting because I think there is a perfect balance where you take the where you combine the indigenous knowledge and western approach.

And I obviously tooting my own horn. I believe that’s the balance. We strive here for having an indigenous shaman lineage, but then at the same time, having integration and having support and like English speaking team members, they can make you feel comfortable. And also like we’re in Andes, for foreigners when they come here, they think they’re in jungle because it’s green and there’s palm trees but like not real jungle, with things that can kill you, like snakes and stuff like that.

So I think having that, I think there’s like levels. You come to a place like low wire first, let’s say You not because we only good for fir first timers, but because we prepare you for what’s to come. And then when you’re ready. Maybe like when you already step on a path like shamanistic path and you really want to go meet medicine where it comes from.

Because like I I’ve been to jungle and it’s a little, it’s already overwhelming. The medicine experience itself, it’s already scary enough, but then you get scared of snakes and spiders and malaria, et cetera. So like every mosquito you get freaked out of. So it’s it’s definitely not for everyone, but interestingly enough, it will call you.

I remember having this, I had no idea why, but I had this irresistible call to go to Jungle, and then Synchronistically person comes and says, I’m going to jungle. I’m like I’m gonna go with you. Synchronicities will happen if you need to. So I’m not saying like there’s one correct way to do it, but regarding safety, yeah, there is.

There’s physical safety. Somebody just making sure you don’t hurt yourself or jump over height. What. Knives away and all that jazz. Yeah. Like a basic stuff. Like in Ma Loko, we don’t have sharp corners. Everything is somewhat rounded. And then there’s spiritual safety, which is the space that shaman protects from all the other things that are invisible to us.

Emotional safety. So there’s like layers and layers. It’s a complex work. I know you also organize retreats, so I I can imagine you, you know a lot about it.

Lauren Taus: And I wanna say too, that I think what you’re describing is perfect and beautiful, right? I want for people to have an authentic experience and to be connected to a lineage, right?

Not, and I feel that’s very essential. And part of what allows for a person to really be held. And like you said you’ve got your shaman and then you have folks who are around the space who speak English, who know the culture. It’s that’s what I’m talking about. It’s not that you can’t go to the Amazon, but the context needs to also be for someone who’s brand new.

I think unless they’ve really got a sturdy constitution, maybe they’ve got a lot of medicine experience under their belts. They need, people need education and information around like how to navigate the these mystical spaces.

Sam Believ: Yeah, a bit of mediation between the Amazonian culture and our understanding because they don’t, they see things very different.

They don’t feel the necessity or desire to sell your, their tradition to you. They just want you to follow it if you wanna be a part of it. So we need to mediate and it’s there’s many sensitive topics that, that are difficult, but it’s manageable when you like, pay attention to, so there’s a lot of like very minute.

Micro adjustments that you need to make, but it works and I think it, it can be done and should be done. Let’s switch a topic a little bit and talk about medicine from the point of view of medicine. I know you have lots of doctors in your family and you, you don’t hate the allopathic medicine model.

What is that, where do you see this beautiful marriage, hopefully eventually of those two worlds?

Lauren Taus: Yeah. I’ve I’m the daughter, granddaughter, and niece of medical doctors. I am the daughter of a nurse. My mom was a nurse. I, myself, I’m a clinician in a Western trained orientation.

I think, western medicine, like all good things meets partnership. I think that the way that the system is operating is as deeply abusive to medical doctors right now. Simultaneously I bow my head to western medicine thank you so much. There are so many outrageous miracles that Western medicine has accomplished.

No I think I made a video on Instagram about it. Just getting them blood test. This is a tiny little vein, can extract infinite data from your vein and help us understand like where our bodies are in imbalance and how we can create more balances. It’s absolutely phenomenal. And it’s, is it perfect?

No, it’s not. It needs marriage. Like the PE people know, I think about Bob Marley and Steve Jobs who totally rejected Western medicine and likely would’ve lived longer had they opened themselves to these things. Now it’s their choice to die, right? It’s their choice, but. I wanna live as long as I can in, in, in as healthy way as possible.

Now, there’s no question in my mind that even the atmosphere that I live in Topanga, California, where I look outside and see the natural world, where I wake up to birds, bird songs, and not taxi cap signs where I, fall asleep to the sounds of crickets, that this is medicine, and there’s more and more research indicating the real health benefits of time in a more natural environment.

Korea has medicalized forest bathing, and there’s forests that are medicine, like there’s science medicine, no, ayahuasca is my medicine. The way that has supported my nervous system and has given me counsel around how to live well and how to also be in, in higher levels of service and connection, right?

We suffer from disconnection, separation, et cetera, and that creates disease in our bodies. We need to learn about relationship. I believe IAS is all about relationship and how do we have right relationship within medical context as well. I find a lot of respect for the different verticals of medicine.

One of the things that I’m thinking about a lot is medicine is so hyper-focused in, in ways that are problematic, right? Like there there’s a doctor that’s focused on, respiratory or focused on like heart issues and maybe overlooking the larger system. But like, how then did the specialists and experts weave their wisdom in conversation?

Connection? I believe in the worlds of wisdom traditions, like medicine is, western medicine is not, is one of them. I think that it’s a grave mistake to, to rule one out. Any one of them, right? Thank you for Ayurveda thank you to acupuncture, thank you to ayahuasca. Thank you to all the plant medicines.

Thank you to, to all of the doctors, right? There’s the plant doctors and there’s the medical doctors and respect what? Follow respect. And we don’t live in that reality right now. Again as a person who comes from all of these physicians and who’s also been blessed and privileged to be a teacher to different doctors and to be their students in return, I’m aware of how much burden they carry and how little support they get in the business of saving lives that they have devoted themselves to.

It’s a whole language that these guys have. And I love when I find doctors, and I’ve got many of them that sit in circles. I put together with medicine and helping them, right? Like they, they’re devoting their lives to, to the health of the human form. And they’re learning, right? Let’s keep learning together and respect one another.

I don’t know if any of that made any bit of sense. I feel like it was a bit rambly but there’s just no part of me can discard the wisdom of Western medicine.

Sam Believ: Yeah. And I’ll give you an interesting example. Our shaman actually this week we have a retreat and we have four ceremonies in one week.

And he gave the first ceremonies enduring a lot of pain. He was really feeling unwell. Then he went to the hospital, then he had the pen appendectomy. They cut his appendicitis out. And he’s in the hospital now, so he’s, his dad is coming to replace him. So it’s and so he’s being helped by the allopathic medicine and it’s, has its use, it’s all perfect.

But we also have a lot of doctors that come to low wire and they’re depressed and suicidal and not only they can’t really find help in the, in their own system, but they’re not even allowed to talk about it a lot of times. Like they, they cannot. They cannot openly say that maybe they’re depressed or suicidal because they’ll lose their job, and that feels very unfair.

I don’t know if you have any opinion on that.

Lauren Taus: The statistics demonstrate that people in the medical profession have much higher rates of suicide, depression, and addiction. I’ve seen this time and time again, and as you mentioned, for many of them, it is unsafe for them to report the need for help because it makes them seem unfit to do the job.

Now, of course, they’re struggling like to sit and swim in, in the content of sickness and death all day to like triage, specifically emergency room doctors, a very hard time. And there, there’s certain verticals within the larger medical profession that have more difficulty than others, right?

Like someone in plastic surgery who’s just doing like cosmetic work is not as likely to have as much difficulty as somebody who’s dealing with pediatric cancer, for example. But the physicians need care and it’s an area that I have so a lot of passion for and have some desire to even research, although I haven’t refined the question just yet.

But physicians are largely unintended to, I think their personality profiles are such that they’re, they have certain complexes and they wanna help everybody and then, and they usually don’t get the help that they themselves need. I’ve seen this over and over again, whether that be in my father or close friends or students who are medical doctors, but to the, for the devotion that these humans have poured into service I wanna serve them and I wanna make sure that they’re doing well.

And as I mentioned, they’re not statistically doing well.

Sam Believ: Yeah, same thing with the police people and Fire p firemen and many others that like,

Lauren Taus: who are attending. I wanna tend to those who are attending. I wanna put. Circles together that are just medical providers.

Sam Believ: Yeah.

Lauren Taus: And there’s each need to follow our respective passion and life force.

Like I have a lot of passion for this area and there are close friends of mine who are doing work with veterans and close friends of mine who are doing work with first responders and things like this. And wherever our life force takes us, like we should go and go.

Sam Believ: Yeah. So service people, but also I wanna talk about service from a more medicinal, more medicine sort of point of view.

I’ve recently, so obviously running a retreat and helping a lot of people overcome their mental health issues is a service as well. But I’ve recently connected with this, I don’t know if it was in the medicine or right after the ceremony, but this like act of serving as in you can’t really find words about it, but.

Feeling like a joy of serving that does not revolve around receiving anything in return. I don’t know if you can, if more about it or have more experience about it. I don’t know if you can talk about that

Lauren Taus: giving just for the sake of giving. Yeah, just giving is fuel, right?

I like to say that people should only give from their saucer, right? I find that a lot of folks are empty and serving and serving from a place of not full. And so I find, back to my daily practice, like my practice fills me up and, for me, God fills me up. I don’t care what spirit, universe, whatever, like I’m filled up by, by spirit.

And from that place, I feel more comfortable serving. And I do think like it’s important to manage like the in ins and outs and ensure that you’re not like in deficit. A lot of people who like to give or are in service positions are giving to their detriment. And that’s becomes a problem.

But of course we should give to give one of my mom’s dying bits of advice to me was to give as much as I can and give anonymously. Like just give ’cause it’s the right thing to do. ’cause it feels good to give without wanting thanks or credit or whatever. Just do it. ’cause you should.

But again if it’s all one to ensure that, that you’re, you’ve got to give that, you’ve gotta give.

Sam Believ: How about giving but not receiving gratitude in return? Like having a very difficult what?

Lauren Taus: That that’s exactly right. It’s my mom said just to do it.

’cause it’s right to do not for the thank you, not for the attention or the validation or any of that, but to ensure that like you have. You have enough inside of yourself that giving doesn’t deplete you. Like giving doesn’t create resentment within you. Giving is like authentic to you, right?

That’s the space for which to give. And as I mentioned for me, like I fill my tank, I fill my tank, like I’m not getting filled up. Yeah, of course we need relationship and connection and we’re all infinitely, intimately, forever and ever connected. Like I’m I get filled up by my trees, I get filled up by the birds, I get filled up by my prayers.

I get filled up by my songs, by playing my guitar, and then it’s from that place that I can give and just give because I want to, and I don’t need anyone to know.

Sam Believ: Yeah. It can be difficult when you’re trying to help someone, but not only they don’t like it, but they can also hurt you in return.

Yeah. You have to be like. Kind of Jesus consciousness where you can literally be slapped. Like it happened to me in a ceremony where I was slapped in the face for wanting to help. But that’s that’s okay. Karmically you’re getting some points. Few more topics.

We have 10 more minutes left, but I have a few more topics we can talk about. I’m just gonna give you a list and you can tell me which is the most exciting for you. Childhood wounding somatic approaches individual healing versus group healing. Doctors offering ketamine without trying to do cells first in internal family systems.

Which ones of these would you like to talk about?

Lauren Taus: No, you got a lot going on there. Hold I think that for nobody should be giving any psychoactive medicine without having a lot of their own personal experience. So to the doctors who are delivering ketamine because they can medically, legally stop, right?

And if you’re not like a seasoned traveler yourself, like this is not diabetes medicine. Stop, there’s so much harm that happens in spaces where people do not know what they’re doing. And the harms are coming from very naive and innocent places. So like compassion, but there’s a big lot of mess that needs to be then cleaned up.

And again, it’s about understanding the potency of the medicines that we serve and that we work with and that we recommend. And especially if they’re designed to be something other than anesthetics, right? Like ketamine is anesthetic. So if you’re using this for mental health treatment, please understand what you’re doing as it relates to individual versus group.

I have a lot of thoughts about this. We all need individual attention. We all need individual attention. And I love giving people individual attention. I love being like intimate and front row of their like breakthroughs and their breakdowns and celebrating with them and grieving with them, and like holding their hands through their lives, et cetera.

And we are largely starved of community in, in North American culture. And we are living very masked lives and very separated lives and very, like Instagram highlight reel lives. And when we sit together in community and ceremony, we are also healed by the healing of others that we get to bear witness to.

We are healed by watching and opening our hearts to, to the great heartbreak of what lives inside of our neighbors and our friends and our family members. Just to bear witness is a medicine that to bear witness is the whole of my profession. I don’t need help or heal anyone.

They help and heal themselves. And I hold their hands and I give them all kinds of skills. And yes, internal family systems is one of my favorites. And as I mentioned, it dovetails really nicely with psychedelic work and certainly to work ayahuasca. But I can’t plug enough the potency and power and the healing that happens when we sit together.

And of course when we’re sitting together with ayahuasca their candle goes off, everyone’s got their medicine inside of them. Medicine is drinking up each of the individuals. And we’re going on a solo journey. Like we’re going on a solo journey

Sam Believ: together,

Lauren Taus: right? It’s like I feel like I zip up my spaceship and I’ll see when the candle comes on again, right?

But I’m also like aware that I’m sitting in a space where someone’s grieving, someone’s barfing, someone’s laughing, someone’s dancing, someone’s crying like this all happening at the same time. And it’s like right here, right now in our lives, nevermind medicine. So I think that when we really feel in the moment this truth we feel more connected.

And that is one of the biggest medicines of all. So I’m a huge advocate of sitting together. I feel very blessed to run retreats with medicine myself whether they be trainings that I do with ketamine or retreats with plant medicines. And when we come together, big things happen. And I think sometimes those big things need support individually and often.

And whether that’s in the privacy of your own home or in, in the, under the care and support of someone with a title of therapist or something like this. But I can’t advocate enough for group experience.

Sam Believ: And you mentioned Internal Family systems several times. Can you tell our audience maybe if they’ve never heard about it before, what is it?

Lauren Taus: Sure. So Internal Family Systems is a, an orientation that really dovetails nicely with psychedelic work. It was and set forth by men named Dick Schwartz. Basically the concept is that we all have self energy, which you could also consider like your soul. It’s like the sun. It’s always shining.

Your true self is entirely undamaged and unnamable, like nothing can touch it. Nothing. Not war, not raved, not molestation, not incest, not nothing. We also have many parts inside of us, and this isn’t a function of mental illness. Like we all have many parts inside.

And it’s best to look at these parts as like ontological realities as like entities and like all beings, they can change. They aren’t one thing. It’s not like you have a part that’s always angry, but you might have a part that’s carrying a lot of anger, or you might have a part that’s carrying a lot of criticism or a part that’s carrying a lot of depression or grief, sadness.

The parts are generally in contact with each other or the outside world. The work of Internal family Systems is to bring the parts into relationship itself. And these parts are often managing or protecting exile parts. So very wounded, often younger parts of us that have been neatly tucked away, locked away and pushed to the side so much so that often we don’t even remember them, we don’t even think about them.

But maybe this kind of work can resurface them. Like the managers and protectors go to sleep. And exiles can be more, more present with medicine work. But all of the parts are good. Dick Schwartz wrote a book called No Bad Parts. I had a, an anorexic part like that was like, that’s job was like, I’m going to start off.

And that was very effective. I was like 50 pounds less than I am now. I’m a very petite little person, right? It’s insane that I did that, but like that part was trying to protect me from the pain of my existence. So thank you. Like whenever I’m working with anybody who’s got any sort of quote unquote addictive process, it’s like we have to start by saying thank you to that, but it’s really working from a lens that’s non pathologizing, that’s understanding that even a suicidal or a homicidal part is there, protect you.

It’s got a good intention and we don’t want it to act out, right? Like we don’t want that. But how do we build a relationship with this part such that it can put down some of its behaviors and change its role and allow us to access more of our wounded exiled parts that really need our consistent cure and attention but have been pushed out in order for us to survive.

So it’s really about building relationships with these parts and understanding that like our souls, our infinite souls themselves are like just not bothered. They’re like capable of doing anything. They can die and it’s okay. Like it’s like it’s okay. There’s something that will witness like the whole process and still be there when it’s.

Sam Believ: Yeah, that’s a great that’s a great way to see things. Lauren, thank you so much for this episode. I think it was packed with gold nuggets. I’m sure people will enjoy it. Where can people find more about you and your work?

Lauren Taus: We’ve got my website, embodied life.com. It’s spelled with an IN ’cause I want you to go into your body and live in embodied life.com.

Also on Instagram at Lauren dot Taos, or at Embodied Life Therapy.

Sam Believ: Thank you Lauren.

Lauren Taus: Thank you, Sam. Super fun

Sam Believ: guys, you’ve been listening to I Ask Podcast as always with you, the whole assembly of, and I will see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you’d like to support us and psychedelic renaissance at large, please follow us and leave us a like wherever it is you’re listening.

Share this episode with someone who will benefit from this information. Nothing in this podcast is intended as medical advice, and it is for educational and entertainment purposes only. This episode is sponsored by Lara Ayahuasca Retreat. At Lara, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity.

Lara Connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you.

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with Brendan Evans.

Brendan is the CEO and co-founder of One Heart, an organization dedicated to guiding leaders through transformative experiences that foster personal growth and elevate consciousness. Before founding One Heart, Brendan built two successful tech companies in New York but found that conventional success did not bring the fulfillment he anticipated, leading him to discover Ayahuasca and embark on a deeper path of self-discovery.

We touch upon topics such as:

• Brendan’s journey from tech entrepreneur to Ayahuasca facilitator (00:43 – 03:45)
• Challenges of misalignment and burnout in high-achievers (04:51 – 06:47)
• How Ayahuasca helps leaders align with their true purpose (07:17 – 09:50)
• The importance of integration and community in plant medicine work (11:16 – 13:42)
• Choosing the right retreat and facilitators for a safe experience (14:24 – 17:13)
• Common misconceptions about Ayahuasca, such as purging and major life changes (45:57 – 49:14)
• Brendan’s thoughts on spirituality, karma, and what happens after death (38:44 – 41:29)
• Running an Ayahuasca retreat: challenges and rewards (20:29 – 25:41)
• Advice for aspiring retreat facilitators (21:01 – 22:57)

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats, go to http://www.lawayra.com.

Find more about Brendan Evans at oneheart.com and on Instagram at @oneheartjourneys and @brandonevans.

Transcript

Brendan Evans: You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast.com. For me, ayahuasca is a medicine of alignment, so it’s gonna show you what your deepest alignment is. So if you’re creating businesses that don’t align with your central purpose, with who you are, then yeah, it will likely show you the. That in greater detail.

There’s a lot of ways, obviously founders have shown that, many are shown that, and I guess how VCs might prefer they be shown that as in burnout after many years and then they’ve burnt out their lives and are struggling and, I think what Ayahuasca offers them is the ability to find that out before we completely burn out and find a path.

That can lead to greater fulfillment, greater energy, what we’ve seen on a lot of our journeys. And I think one of the things we really focus on is we understand the people we’re working with are, they’re. High performers are looking to continue to create in the world, but it’s how do you align that creation?

How do you align what you’re doing to what you really want in your life?

Sam Believ: Hi guys. Welcome to our podcast. As always. We did the host, Sam Leave. Today I’m having an interview with Brendan Evans. Brendan is the CEO Chief Elevation Officer and co-founder of One Heart, an organization dedicated to guiding leaders through transformative experiences that foster personal growth and elevate consciousness.

Prior to founding One Heart, Brenda achieved significant success in tech industry building two highly successful tech companies in New York. However, by the age of 36, he found that this conventional success did not bring joy, meaning, and fulfillment he had anticipated. With touch upon topics of Brenda’s personal story and how you went from being a tech startup founder to working with plant medicines, we talk about ayahuasca and leadership.

Ayahuasca and burnout. Misconceptions about Ayahuasca parenting his belief system after working with Ayahuasca for a long time and so much more. Enjoy this episode. This episode is sponsored by Lara Ayahuasca, retreat at Lara. We can buy affordability, accessibility, and authenticity. Laira connect, heal, grow.

Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you. Brendan. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Good to be here, Sam. Brenda, tell us a little bit about your story and how you ended up working with Plant Medicines and why did conventional success didn’t bring you any joy?

Brendan Evans: Sure. Yeah, I was I was living in New York.

I had built one company. We had sold that company right as we exited the company. I spun off another company, so I really didn’t have any transition. Been working for close to 20 years. New York style working 60, 80 hours a week. Just really grinding it out. Built some successful companies.

We spun this new company out. I grew it very quickly to about a hundred employees raised a bunch of VC money. And then a few years in, my investors came to me and wanted me to raise more money. And that was really the moment when my heart kind of sank and I realized, I was somewhere different.

It was no longer what I felt called to be doing. We were creating technology that supported big companies, sell unhealthy, unneeded products, and it just became something that I was no longer aligned to. And as I thought about, approaching 40 in the next, phase of my life something just really, didn’t sit right and for me.

That’s really what kicked me off on my path. Around that time I found Ayahuasca and the first time I heard about it and I was in a yoga studio in Brooklyn. Sitting with the medicine about a couple weeks later just resonated with me from the first time I heard of it. And yeah, just set me off on my path and through that, through I ended up.

My investors ended up coming to me asking me several more times to raise the money. And when I refused eventually they let me go from the company that I had started, asked me to step down, and that kinda sent me on this deeper growth path that included plan medicine, a bunch of other modalities some coaching certifications, and really a bunch of travel.

And really exposed myself to a lot. Went on this personal journey that I really, was too busy to do much of my life. And when I got back I ended up writing this article called Lost on Purpose, and I posted it on my 40th birthday. It really, it shared a lot about my story.

From being this super motivated type a founder to really looking for a deeper joy, deeper meaning in life. I checked all the boxes, but wasn’t really feeling the fulfillment that I had expected in all the areas of my life. And I posted that on my 40th birthday and ended up going viral and receiving all these messages from people that said, this is my story.

This is my story. And what they really meant by that was a lot of high achievers, a lot of people that had checked a lot of boxes of what society was asking of them and really didn’t know where to turn next. And for me, that became the motivation to start one heart. Just seeing that there are a lot of people out there that can do big things that wanna really create in this world, but really don’t know how to apply their talents, their skills into areas of passion, areas that they feel will actually support the world in moving forward. And and that’s really the mission of One Heart is to help leaders continue to evolve and themselves so that what they create in the world is, has that much deeper meaning.

And and utility.

Sam Believ: Thank you for sharing that. Brendan, I am, my story is somewhat similar, even though I was not a founder, but I climbed the career ladder to an extent and got everything that society told me. When I get it, I’ll be happy. Happiness never came. So I gave up and started something new, but interesting question.

I think I heard about it somewhere that, venture capitalist people, they’re really worried about founders drinking ayahuasca because a lot of them quit and stop running that doing that rat race style thing, do you you work with leaders, so obviously a lot of them have their own company, so are they worried sometimes that maybe they will.

Step off the path or what? What would you tell people that are worried that I Wasco will change them so much?

Brendan Evans: Yeah, I think there’s a quote by Reid Hoffman that recently that that speaks to that and how ayahuasca, is maybe has some founders step off their path. The way I always describe it, and, I’ve seen, I’ve seen quite the contrary in several respects.

I think what I’ve seen is for me, ayahuasca as a medicine of alignment. So it’s gonna show you what your deepest alignment is. So if you’re creating businesses that don’t align with your central purpose, with who you are. With what you wanna be doing on a daily basis, then yeah, it will likely show you that in greater detail.

And I think there’s a lot of ways, obviously founders have shown that. Many are shown that, and I guess how VCs might prefer they be shown that as in burnout after many years and then they’ve burnt out their lives and are struggling and. I think what Ayahuasca offers them is the ability to find that out before, we completely burn out and find a path that can lead to greater fulfillment, greater energy, and what we’ve seen on a lot of our journeys.

And I think one of the things we really focus on is we understand the people we’re working with are, their. High performers are looking to continue to create in the world. But it’s how do you align that creation? How do you align what you’re doing to what you really want in your life?

And for some, that might be, we’ve seen people that are able to replace themselves in their businesses and take time to step away and work on projects or areas of the company that are more fulfilling versus being the nuts and bolts of it. We’ve seen others that have, left corporate America or left company that they were working with to found or create something new that, that had deeper alignment with what they’re doing. I’ve seen people pivot their businesses so that they align more and contribute more to the areas that that they’re most aligned to.

Yeah, obviously, if you’re looking at it from a purely, capitalistic controlling perspective and you want just people to do you know what, capitalism and money dictates that they do. Then, then ayahuasca could obviously, help people step outside that.

But if you’re interested in having people reach their highest potential by aligning their desires their souls, their hearts with the work that they’re doing, then this work and, I think our program in particular is really well suited to support people in that path.

Sam Believ: It’s similar to people. Being afraid that if they work with ayahuasca, their relationship, they might wanna dump their boyfriend or girlfriend. And it’s the same thing I tell them that, if you, if it’s meant to be, it will show you even more. And if it’s not, then it’s the best thing that can ever happen to you.

Why would you wanna waste any more time? So you mentioned burn burnout and I, myself, I’m the founder as well, but I’m the founder in an ayahuasca space. So in an ayahuasca retreat. I personally, and it’s a very difficult thing business to run. A friend of mine who helps us with marketing, he says it’s the most difficult business model he’s ever seen.

But I drink IO regularly, so I drink it once a month. And I think that kind of keeps me away from burnout. Sometimes I feel, the symptoms. Can you talk to us about burnout? ’cause you work with lots of. Entrepreneurs and how to spot the burnout and how to fix it.

Can I ask help or maybe is there anything else you’d recommend they do?

Brendan Evans: Yeah, I think the biggest cause of burnout is misalignment. It’s not necessarily the hours we’re working or any of the day-to-day factors per se, although that can contribute. But I think more than anything it’s when people are doing work that’s out of alignment when they’re working with people that they don’t wanna be around when they’re, doing work and tasks that, that they don’t feel, optimize their skills or.

Or tap into their passions and creativity when they’re working in things that they don’t believe in or don’t feel are good for the world. And I think that’s, that dissonance, that cognitive dissonance is really what creates the deeper burnout. And I think Ayahuasca very much shows you where you’re out of alignment, and that’s one of the ways that it supports.

I think also, a lot of people coming on retreats. You see it, we have a two week program before preparation, five weeks after. And people that are struggling to even give themselves, the few hours of time to, to do some of that work or step away on, on a one week journey.

And, when you think about, who owns your life, if you can’t step away, if you can’t give yourself some moments to reflect, to go deeper when work is so controlling that you can’t step away for this time that’s also, a big cause of up burnout. ‘Cause you’re not con, you’re not feeling like you’re in control of your life and you’re not really able to take the time to allow your mind to refresh.

And, take a step back, and I think that’s another thing that really happens with our program and with this medicine, is it allows you to do that in a very short period of time. It gives you that broader perspective. It allows you to go deeper. It allows you to step away. Even in a short period of time.

And that’s one of the things I’ve seen that, that really allows people to be re refreshed as well. But I think that, for that to really last, it’s really about the integration. And that’s why we focus a lot on that. It’s taking, you’ve seen these breakthroughs, you have these insights that come through for you on journey.

How do you take that and actually make changes into your life? How you remove the things that are causing the most dissonance in your life that are most misaligned. So that, you’re not just repeating those patterns and going back into all those areas that cause burnout in the first place.

Sam Believ: You mentioned integration. So what are your general recommendations for people that, let’s say, just worked with Ayahuasca and want to bring most of it back to their day-to-day life?

Brendan Evans: So we have a five week program that’s virtual post journey. We think it’s really critical. For thousands of years this medicine has been done in community.

So you would sit with your community, your tribe, you would, life would be an integration. And that’s been taken away in much of the modernization of how we do this work. And one of the core aspects of our integration is community. So we form very deep relationships. In the pre.

In the pre journey on journey people get extremely close. And so that community really helps support people, as they integrate back into their life. People that have seen them at their highest, people that have seen them be completely vulnerable, who know what they, wanna create in their life, supporting them.

So that’s a huge aspect of it. Our integration program is also focused a lot around helping them codify and take the information that they’ve received from their highest self and then really bring that forth in their life. And we do that through a 10 year visioning exercise through a personal manifesto.

And so it’s really capturing a lot of, the commitments, the promises the information that will most support them and how they wanna live their life moving forward and help them keep that front and center as they go back into their lives and utilize that as they move forward. ’cause as we do forget a lot that comes through.

And so it’s really about how do we really keep that stuff front and center and provide a support network that’s going to allow people to to support themselves moving forward. And. Even post our five week program, we have monthly virtual meetup calls. We have local groups in about 14 different markets across the world, including metagene.

And so yeah, we do a lot to help our community stay together, connect with each other. So we really feel that’s a huge aspect of it.

Sam Believ: Yeah, I do agree. I think community is not only a big part of integration, but also a big part of their healing. We don’t have our tribe anymore these days.

Everyone, there’s more people than ever, but we’re more lonely than ever before. So you mentioned your first Awas experience was at the yoga studio in Brooklyn. Obviously not the most optimal way of doing it. So now after being more experienced and, organizing. I ask retreats yourself, what would you recommend people do or not do when choosing a place?

Brendan Evans: Obviously what I feel, what I recommend for people we really put into our one hour program. We really try to create about 80% of the people that join us are first time at Wasco drinkers. We have a lot of people that have drank all over the world as well.

But we really create an experience that allows them to get the most from it with preparation, with all the. The things we provide on Journey, in addition to the Ayahuasca that really supports it. We have a lot of different modalities, different workshops and different things that really support them going deeper and integrating.

And then the five week integration program some of the elements that I think I would. Call out our, one a lot of our preparation is around, is be being comfortable. So as comfortable as you can be with where you’re gonna sit. So knowing, if you know the practitioners beforehand that supports, if you have the opportunity to really, to show up somewhere where you already have a comfort level I think that really allows you to go deeper.

Obviously deeply trained medicine team our medicine teams are, have, have deep dedication to this work. Put a lot into their DTAs, into their studies. As does our team, our team at One Heart also we do our DTAs as well and really focus a lot on on, upgrading our, our skills so we can support others.

On Journey. I think it’s, there’s a lot of areas that can be really supportive to people. As far as just, really creating, as we said, the communal effect. Integrating stuff together in a group different modalities. We leverage things like breath work, Temescal which are Native American sweat lodge ice baths.

Ecs, static Dance, cacao ceremonies. We have specific workshops developed around different themes that tend to come up a lot like surrender and self-love and freedom. And so yeah, like really allowing, I think the balance of bringing the, the deeply indigenous traditions with some western ability to really help people take what they’re learning, integrate that into their lives, and know how to utilize that in a better way is really supportive.

And then integration, places that, that support post journey. How, how can you be supported as you go back into your life and really using this information that you’ve received to to elevate you in your life. So I think those would be. Some of the, some of the things that I would focus on,

Sam Believ: That, that’s a great list of things.

So obviously the Brooklyn studio might not be the most optimal place for Ayahuasca, but it did something to you that change your life or start that, the journey that led you to. To where you are now. Can you maybe describe this experience or how did it unfold? How long, how many ceremonies before you from you just trying it for the first time to you changing your life in this 180 fashion?

Brendan Evans: Yeah, that’s a good question. And obviously we all have our own paths and we find it in our own ways and, I joked that after that ceremony, my integration was, my Uber got pulled over on the way home and I had to get out and sell my stuff and walk home. So yeah, you can have some imperfect experiences too.

For me it was enough to obviously, know that there was something greater there for me in this. For me that first ceremony was a lot around just oneness and the connection to all that is. And I was, fortunate to just, I didn’t really go super deep into my own, my own work at that time.

And a lot of personal stuff. It was just that, unquestionable knowing of the connectedness of the world and the divinity of the world that, that I felt that allowed me to to know that there was something greater here to continue to pursue. I, when I started One Heart, I think I had probably done it around 25 ceremonies at that time various parts of the world.

And it wasn’t something where, i’m like, I had some message. I have to do this. I just I think I, I really really understood at that time the responsibility that it holds. I almost canceled the first journey several times just knowing what, what responsibility it held to carry this medicine and to serve others in this way.

And so it came with a lot of, deep thought and and consideration and just at the end of the day really felt like there was a strong pull for creating this type of community with these types of people that could really bring a lot of value. And after.

Doing the first one, especially the second one, it just became obvious, what was there and that there was something, bigger working its way through. And obviously it’s, as you mentioned, there’s a lot of challenges. It’s not an easy business model, it’s not easy work to do. There’s always kind of things coming up and without that strong commitment to why you’re doing this work and you know why you’re.

You wanna serve in this way, it’s, it can be very easy to go off in the, in, in the wrong way or create something that ultimately doesn’t doesn’t serve in the way that you may be first envisioned.

Sam Believ: Yeah, it’s I noticed that a lot of people come here to low wire, for example. They, it looks easy when it’s organized well.

So a lot of people get inspired too. To also start a retreat of some sort. And what would you say to someone who wants to work with the medicine? Gets the, has this, feels this calling? Any words of wisdom or recommendation?

Brendan Evans: Think about it for a while. Yeah, I think really try to get hands-on experience.

How can you really, understand what it means to hold this work and hold this medicine. Yeah. I see. I’ve seen a, I’ve seen, people that, like you mentioned, they see it well run. They see how, exciting, how much guests appreciate the work.

How beneficial it is and they’re like, oh, I should go off and do this. And yes, there’s a business aspect to it and an organizational aspect to it. But when you’re working in medicine, I think there’s just, there’s such a greater responsibility that we have and I don’t think people, fully understand that.

And I think the only way to fully get that is to spend a lot of time with the medicine. I think the same. Same goes with people serving medicine. Just you don’t wanna go to five ceremonies and call yourself a shaman and start serving. I think it’s, it takes really, going and doing lots of tatas being, spending time in the Amazon really learning really putting in the time and sacrifice to be able to do this work.

So I think, trying to put in that same work, before starting a business or center or something along those lines is really important. And sometimes people don’t maybe have this, that same opportunity, but I’ve seen a lot of people, try and start things and they usually don’t go so well.

So I think, yeah the more you can really learn about the space and yourself and really dedicate yourself to the medicine, the better the outcome you’ll likely have. And. Ensure that you’re, this is what you’re truly committed to.

Sam Believ: Yeah. It’s definitely much harder than it seems.

So as a facilitator myself, I’m curious, what is the most difficult part for you about your work, and then what is the most pleasant and fulfilling part?

Brendan Evans: Good question. I think the most difficult part is just the level of responsibility that I hold for it, and really, feeling truly accountable for every soul, every person that comes through and wanting to see the best for them. And when there’s challenges and when, things come up.

Or there’s parts of our process that that we look to, that we wanna uplevel. It’s just, just con it’s just continual like commitment and almost obsession over how can we really serve everyone yet at an even better level. And knowing that the, the price of not doing that is not, it’s not revenue for us it’s the chance that someone may not have their life, shifted in the way that they might have imagined coming in. And you really want everyone to have that opportunity. It’s maybe the only time they sit with the medicine. So I’d say yeah, just really holding that responsibility and really feeling that is, I would say is one of the most challenging things.

The most rewarding things, goes along the same lines. Is seeing the massive transformations and growth that occur. I think with one heart, it’s. Even better. ’cause we’re on Facebook, we’re on WhatsApp groups with everyone. We see people like long term as well.

People connect with each other. So just seeing all the ways that people’s lives are changed. From time to time I get to be an event or see people just went on a deta that had a bunch of one harder’s alumni and yeah you hear their gratitude and the way that one heart, changed their lives and, that’s a really beautiful thing. To know that that we’re a part of, and especially when you dedicate as much time and energy to, to this work to really feel that and know that we’re making changes in people’s lives and see the changes that they’re making in the world. You have a lot of leaders, a lot of people going back into the world doing some really interesting things.

And so to see that butterfly effect is really beautiful.

Sam Believ: So you mentioned that. Obviously you get lots of leaders coming to your events and they say, fish rots from the head. So it’s like starting, addressing the top of the society first and then hopefully that it trickles down.

What are you, what are your hopes, for, 10 years from now? What would, what can. The fact that leaders drink Ayahuasca do to to their careers to the people that work with them and to society at large. What is your bullish scenario prediction?

Brendan Evans: Yeah. I think, there’s a lot of areas where you can see how business is leading our lives astray in, in many ways from our, our food system to, our pharma system to the, you. Just the way that we’re caring for people, what we’re putting out and how we’re supporting people in their lives. There’s a lot that is not supporting people and not supporting our children. And one hope is that, we, really align.

And we really don’t turn a blind eye to the work that we’re putting out in the world and make sure that, we’re working. For Pepsi or Coke, how are we gonna help them create products that don’t kill people and don’t, poison people. And

Sam Believ: Pepsi, what that, what’s good flavor?

Brendan Evans: Yeah, and they used to be big clients of mine and I think and I didn’t really, think about it in that way at the time. And obviously there’s people that enjoy their products and they bring happiness to people. And there’s just a lot that’s covered up a lot of science that’s not used.

A lot of chemicals that are banned in other countries that we’re still using. Knowing how bad they are. So there are things that we have to really own as a society and be an integrity about these are people’s kids. These are, we have I think, 60% obesity in the us. These are not acceptable outcomes for people’s lives that.

We all get to take ownership of. It’s also just how people are treated at work. So having bosses and having people that, honor them in, in their work. And don’t overwork them and allow them vacation time and maternity time and, treat people as we all wanna be treated.

I think in our business lives are much of the time that we spend and they create a lot of, what we’re able to provide for our families. They create a lot of the energy that we’re able to come home with to give to our families. And if we really start creating businesses that, they care about the people working there and ultimately care about the people that they’re serving. That’s a big area where, we can, really start to shift the world because capitalism and profits is such a powerful, driver in our society now it’s really gonna take leaders with conscience leaders that wanna stand up to the system and say, yes, we know we have to be profitable to survive and we’re gonna do that in a way that is not significantly damaging our people and our employees.

So I think, yeah, it’s really just. Being a good human and if our leaders are good humans and bus, in, in business and they really take the time to think about the implications of the work that they’re doing the world could shift very quickly.

Sam Believ: Yeah, it is difficult ’cause if you, we don’t exist in a vacuum.

So if there’s one business that gives more vacation to the workers or maybe is paying more money. Let’s say affects their ability to make profit. Eventually the cutthroat companies might be able to outcompete them. Obviously, in a perfect world, there’s there’s a way to do it at least like the audience would support you and be willing to pay higher prices.

Just to know that it’s, properly done. So

Brendan Evans: a lot of these systems are based in fear too. We had unlimited vacation and my company’s in New York, and people did, people didn’t take advantage and people it’s gonna attract a different level of people.

It’s gonna allow people to hopefully, not burn out and to refresh themselves. And yeah, I think it it’s just, a different way of thinking. I think if we’re just constantly thinking how do we squeeze as much out of someone in a short period of time and use fear of losing their job and this and that to motivate them yeah, you’re gonna attract one type of employee and have a type of culture and what if you did it a different way, what if you really inspired people and treated them well and, and brought that into the world?

What, what people might that attract and what shifts might that bring.

Sam Believ: You also mentioned people working for soft green companies and I remember this funny thing that I’ve seen a lot of Colombian shaman specifically really loving. They really love using Pepsi bottles or Coca-Cola bottles for transporting the, their a caso.

They the software and companies serve the positive purposes all on the end of the day. You mentioned you mentioned children. I know you’re a father yourself. So how do you think your father and your children differently? You have one kid, right?

Brendan Evans: Yeah. One daughter, sister turned two.

Sam Believ: How do you father your daughter differently now that you’re in this line of work? Any, anything you can share.

Brendan Evans: Yeah, I. It probably would be completely different than if I was in New York 10 years ago. I think one just living in Costa Rica, the life that, just seeing how important it is for her to be outside.

And I’m fortunate to have a pretty flexible schedule. I’m with her like hours outside every morning before I start my work day, and then. Even later in the day. And so she gets to be outside a ton and just really in nature as children are meant to be. I think they get very programmed very early on.

And that’s very outside of, how we’re born into this world and what we’re meant to experience and live in. That’s one aspect. I think another aspect, I feel like I’ve always been a fairly loving person, but I’m much better at showing it.

I have a lot of affection really able to show her a great deal of love music and dance and things like that, that I’ve become more expressive with through my journey our bigger parts of her life as well. I’m very I would say extremely patient. We’re much more patient than I would’ve been in my New York days for sure.

And really hard to trigger. I’m not reactive in any way to her behaviors and just really can appreciate her and where she’s at and really be with her there. So I’d say all those things definitely were greatly supported through my path with the medicine.

Some of the other work that I’ve done as well.

Sam Believ: Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I have something similar, a similar story of I have three kids, a 4-year-old, two and a half year old, and five months old. And sometimes I see my kids playing in the pool and I grew up in a very cold country where nobody ever had a pool and just the fact that we had to be inside most of the year.

So it’s a very satisfying.

Brendan Evans: I grew up in Cleveland, so I can associate with that too. It was very cold.

Sam Believ: Yeah, just see, just seeing kids being able to be outside most of the year, the entire year here pretty much is very satisfying. Another thing, I don’t know if you’ve observed that or if your your daughter interacts with your guests in any shape or form, but we have, my older son recently learned how to swim. His name is Adrian and I did some of the teaching, but he also had 50 different teachers from all over the world. So the retreat go. So international team of swimming teachers and he definitely is behaving are very different from a normal 4-year-old.

Like he kinda sees that we’re regarding retreats and we greet people now he is he is he’s working as a host for us, so he tells people to take their shoes off when they come into the moloca. And it kinda like mimics me in, like trying to present and be in front of people. And I think that’s a very interesting childhood to grow up at the Ayahuasca retreat.

Yeah. So another thing that I wanted to ask you, you mentioned the Kabbalah spiritual practice and can you tell to people what it is and how it inspired you in your work and understanding of spirituality?

Brendan Evans: Yeah. I would say Kabbalah was one of the main entry points I had into spirituality.

Began setting it. There’s a big center in New York, and I think at the time it was very intellectual for me. It made a lot of sense in my mind. It wasn’t until Ayahuasca that I really was able to drop things into my heart. But Kabbalah is a very ancient wisdom that you know, Einstein and Newton and, a lot of the scientists and a lot of people really, gained a lot of a lot of knowledge about a lot of things from before we had, obviously the internet.

All this information available to us. And Kabbalah means to receive. So a lot of, a lot of it is really about how do we give in a way that it’s, it feels like receiving. So this con this beautiful cycle of give, of giving and receiving from our giving because we take such joy in that, and there’s a lot of different aspects to it.

It gets pretty deep. I think some of the key things are really around restrictions, so really not reacting to things, immediately. Most times our initial reactions are not, coming from our highest selves, coming from our hearts our souls. So just being able to take a step back and allow they speak a lot about, the world that we see is really the 1%, we’re not seeing this 99% and something obviously we experience with ayahuasca.

We start to see these other worlds and this other, other things that are present. So really. Allows you to understand the energy and the aspects of the world that are all around us that are not necessarily manifesting in our physical, reality in the moment.

And really start to see, from a higher perspective. But yeah, there’s a lot of aspects. There’s different energies that are available at different times of the year and different ways to tap in, tap into that energy. And yeah, it can go pretty deep.

But yeah, I just, I find it to be just wisdom that it really just connects, every time I hear it, the principles just really deeply connect. To me

Sam Believ: there are lots of nature ancient practices that really seem to only start making sense after you sit with ow Oscar for the first time, at least for me,

Brendan Evans: they’re probably all created through some type of medicine in many cases information. So

Sam Believ: yeah, I definitely believe that. Every culture used to trip on something, stories of burning DMT bush and stuff like that. There’s there’s traces, there’s clues left in the books and scriptures.

So you described like other worlds and, the energies and things like that. So after now working with Oscar for a long time, what is your worldview from a point of view of what do you believe happens after we die? Or do you believe in karma? Do you do you believe in fate, the synchronicities?

Like what is the worldview? Because I’m still forming mine. I have I’ve been observing things, but I’m encouraged to know yours.

Brendan Evans: Yeah, I feel mind forming and evolving, all the time as well. I think some of the key aspects for me are really one, just how much we’re in control of our reality and, and really going through that pathway.

So I very much feel that, we’re choosing from endless different, and endless different paths and choices in creating a reality. And really getting present to the power that we have in choosing and shifting that reality and how in many ways, the personal aspect of that reality. Not everyone may be living in the same timeline and the same reality at the same time. And so really feeling into that quite a bit. I think, obviously, I don’t feel we ever die. I think there’s a continual energy, obviously some version of us in this body.

We may leave behind, but I think, we, we have this immortal soul that is continually living and learning and experiencing what it needs to experience in order to continue to evolve. And I think each life is presenting us with that and showing us that. And, similar to how, we, ayahuasca always presents us with the most perfect information and situations, and I think life is doing that as well. It’s putting us in those situations where we can have the opportunity to grow and learn and evolve our souls and, in the deepest way.

It’s really just. To us to choose that to choose to see those lessons, to choose to not be victims and choose to continue to move forward and really believe connect, believe in what we’re, our connection and really understand what we’re connected into what we’re here for.

And really, follow that with passion.

Sam Believ: I agree with those things. I’ve definitely noticed that my fear of death and definitely changed after I started working with the medicine. And I’ve heard the same story from, not from people, not from books, but from people right after their, I ask experiences people from different kinds of the world, people that never met each other, describing the same realizations.

In many different words, but that pretty much described that we’re souls coming to this planet to learn some lessons and there’s something afterwards. That’s

Brendan Evans: and I think the other lesson I’ve received from Ayahuasca and in general, the collectiveness of our, one of our one soul and how we’re all fragmented in order to learn.

We’re all learning different pieces that are bringing, bringing that information back in supporting the collective. So while we, have this ability to, create our own path. It’s also, part of this, this collective learning model that we’re all feeding it back into.

Sam Believ: Yeah, definitely we’re all connected and I’ve seen different ways I ask again, show you that when the different analogies that you’re specifically your subconscious will understand. The, it’s a question that I ask. All people that work with Ayahuasca specifically how do you think Ayahuasca healing happens?

What is the mechanism from your point of view?

Brendan Evans: I think I guess from the most practical standpoint, the way I would describe it is it allows you to face. Fears, face limiting beliefs, face stories perspectives that either you’re afraid to face or you’re not. Your subconscious is not allowing you to see your face. And I think when we’re able to see through, see these stories, see these fears, see these limiting beliefs come up against them and actually face them, that creates a freedom and an expansion on the other side that opens space for other things. When we’re living our lives in fears that are containing us and with limiting beliefs that are containing us it’s keeping us in, in, in one place. And so it’s the expansiveness of ayahuasca and this work really comes from being able to face things that.

Frankly, in life might take us decades if at all to, to face and allows us to face them in very short periods of time. There may be obviously some fears, some things that come up, but we’re able to do and in a very loving way, the way the medicine is able to show us these things. Walk us through some of these experiences and then allow us to, come out the other side and we’re not.

Held down by that fear, by that limiting belief. New things open, new perspectives open. And we’re able to really connect in with that. And I would say the other big piece for, is just how deeply we feel the divinity, the connection to everything. And knowing that I think is a very big piece of, I just find, just having that trust in life, having that trust in ourselves ’cause we know that there’s this broader divinity, this loving energy that’s supporting us. And we’re not alone. We’re never alone. We’re not doing this for, it’s not all meaningless.

There’s a reason and and a purpose and connection behind it all.

Sam Believ: Thank you for sharing. That, and you said that you work with a lot of first timers. We do as well. I would say majority of the people that come here are first timers, which is great. Definitely my personal passion to have as many people have this experience.

But what are the misconceptions that you’ve, encounter, first timers maybe not knowing a lot about ayahuasca maybe even coming to it for wrong reasons, but what do you have to like debunk and explain to people?

Brendan Evans: Yeah, I think some of the misconceptions, one we talked about earlier, but there’s this idea that, hey, the medicine’s gonna tell me to leave my partner, leave my job, or do this and do that.

And, this negative, connotation around that. And I think understanding that if that is the case, it’s the medicine is showing you what’s at your highest showing you that there’s something greater, something better for you. And just understanding that. So I think that’s one thing that I see, can potentially stop people sometimes from the medicine.

’cause they’re just, sometimes we just wanna be with the pain we know versus venture into the unknown. The other thing that I think a lot comes around purging. And, it’s, I’m sure it’s similar for your retreats, there’s never anyone at the end of a retreat that’s wow, that purging was so hard.

I wish I hadn’t done that. It’s usually not even a thing, once you get through the journey. But I think a lot of people fear that coming in, just the idea of throwing up in front of others. A lot of people think that maybe that’s the whole ceremony and it’s gonna happen all the time versus, maybe happens for 15 minutes during some of your ceremonies or maybe not at all.

So yeah, understanding, you know what the real role of purging. I think it’s, it’s been used a lot to maybe make people fearful of the medicine and and really not understand understand it from that aspect. What other misconceptions? Yeah, I think people get caught up sometimes and how challenging. Or hard or bad a ceremony might be. And what if they’re stuck in something for long periods of time or they never come out of it? Obviously imagine as you’ve experienced we haven’t seen that. People, obviously you come out the other end and we come out better.

With the medicine helping people, really understand that there really aren’t bad ceremonies. There’s challenging ceremonies. There’s times when we might go through things. We support people a lot, before and, in our pre-program and before on the journey with surrender and.

We, removing some of the resistance. ’cause a lot of times that really triggers some of the more challenging ceremonies when people are really struggling and gripping on tight to something versus, allowing and being curious about what’s coming through. So I think that’s, that’s another thing that that people have some resistance to, early on.

And as I’m sure you’ve seen, I would say the majority of ceremonies, people may have a really challenging one, but they also have the most joyous, beautiful experiences of our lives. Oftentimes our third ceremony is a day ceremony, and often that’s people’s best day of their life.

Pretty overwhelmingly. And yeah, there’s just so much beauty that can happen in these ceremonies as well, and the music and in the way that this medicine works. And I think yeah, I don’t think many people realize that coming in just how beautiful and enjoyable these ceremonies may be as well.

Sam Believ: Yeah. And the challenging ceremonies are where sometimes people get the best breakthroughs, and yeah, as you mentioned about purging, it’s people even learn how to love purging. They then expect purging, and then they get upset when they’re not purging. It’s it’s very hard to explain to a culture that is pathologically afraid of vomiting.

It’s interesting that you say your last ceremony of the week is the day ceremony.

Brendan Evans: Yeah. We do two nights there. And the third is a day ceremony.

Sam Believ: It’s really interesting ’cause we do four ceremonies in the weekend also. Last ceremony is a day ceremony. And I, I’ve never, I’ve only came up with your work stumbled upon your work recently.

So it means that we have independently ended up with a very, say similar format. Because I tried five ceremonies in one week. Three night ceremonies, two day ceremonies, two night ceremonies, two day ceremonies. I tried everything and ended up with last ceremony being the day ceremony. And it’s very similar stories with like best day of my life, best week of my life.

I would assume that I was showed us both the same. The same format. And do you still drink ayahuasca yourself and how often do you drink?

Brendan Evans: Yeah, I do. Right now I’m on all our journeys. So we do about five journeys a year, and I’m drink, we do three ceremonies at each of those.

I’m drinking for those. I just did a deta a couple weeks ago. Mainly at our journeys. I try to sit at least once or twice a year on my own as well. It’s been just more challenging with a young daughter, so that’s been my priority. But yeah, I think it’s important to, to stay connected into the medicine.

Obviously it’s a little bit different work when I’m on our journeys. Although, I’m always learning, being shown beautiful things and also able to be in service and, really enjoy that aspect of it as well. I find a lot of my lessons come between ceremonies, between journeys we get beautiful things in ceremony and, I think just doing this work, a lot of the lessons come in at various different times.

And so just continually following that path and sitting with the medicine in that way.

Sam Believ: I’ll ask you a question that I’ve been asked myself. It’s if you’re already done, that was kinda a lot of people that never drank it before. They assume that you do it once and it forever changes your life and you’re happily ever after.

So it’s like they ask what do you still keep drinking? What is that? What are you after? Don’t you, aren’t you like happy already? What do you, what would you say to that?

Brendan Evans: Is different for everyone. I think there, there are people that come outta retreats and they’re good.

Either forever or for a while. We really, don’t recommend people come back very quickly. We don’t allow people to come back on, like back to back journeys and we really feel like integration’s important and when people come back we’re speaking to them, making sure they integrated what they worked on, what they were, worked on before and are really in a different place coming through.

So I do really see the importance of that. As far as myself personally, if I wasn’t in this work I don’t think I’d be sitting with the medicine as much. I do think it would be a part of my life, whether that’s yearly or, multiple times a year. But for me, as I mentioned, it’s it’s always helping me find alignment.

We always can, even though I think it’s, an easier path for me I’ve found more and more life alignment as my life is, has gone. There’s always things that kind of, take us out or greater aspects of, where we can really get into deeper alignment with ourselves.

So that’s a big aspect. It always resets me and, helps me get really centered and, and focused on, on what’s important. It is an important way for me to like tap into this higher energy. I have personal practices and things I do.

And I haven’t found a way to, to really connect in as, as deeply to that energy. In that way. And it’s also just, it really helps me, develop in different ways. Learn to play the hand pan and my music and creativity and really helps me unlock, unlock things on that path and show me things that, I may wanna continue to learn and grow from.

I think it’s, I think it’s something that I think is important to be very reverent with, be very conscious of not just go and sit. And I think if we’re tapped into why we’re sitting in each ceremony and really honor the medicine there’s a lot she can continue to show us.

Sam Believ: Yeah. I think if you drink too often as well, the medicine itself will tell you it happened to me once, like, why are you back so soon and you haven’t done the homework? So it’s give you a bad trip or a very difficult experience. Brandon, thank you so much for sharing. I think it was it was really interesting to ask you those questions and see how you view this work working people, learn more about you and your experience your, the events that you create and connect to you.

Brendan Evans: Yeah, it was great. Dean, speaking with you as well and always good speaking to others that are really doing this work from the heart. Yeah, for us, the main place is one heart.com. It’s the number one and then HEAR t.com. And that has a list of our different retreat dates.

We do about five a year. We have five coming up in 2025 including new Year’s, which are starting in a few days. Yeah, and on Instagram One Hard Journeys. I am brand E or Brand one at Brand One. And at One Hard Journeys on Instagram would probably be the best ways to follow us.

And yeah, there’s a lot of information on our websites, different podcasts, different, a lot of our reviews a lot of really good information. People would like it.

Sam Believ: Thank you for sharing. Thank you for this episode. Guys, thank you for listening as always, with you, the host, and believe I hope you enjoyed this episode and I will see you in the next one.

I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you’d like to support us and psychedelic Renaissance at large, please follow us and leave us alike. Wherever it is you’re listen. Share this episode with someone who will benefit from this information. Nothing in this podcast is intended as medical advice, and it is for educational and entertainment purposes only.

This episode is sponsored by Lara Ayahuasca Retreat. At Lara, we buy affordability, accessibility, and authentic. The wra Connect, heal, grow guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you.

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with Dr. Jenny Martin.

Dr. Jenny Martin is a researcher and expert in the science of consciousness, biofields, and energy medicine. Her work explores the intersection of physics, ancient wisdom, and modern science, particularly focusing on torsion fields, the pineal gland, and how human consciousness interacts with unseen forces.

We touch upon topics of:

• Torsion fields and their discovery by Russian scientists
• Isaac Newton’s alchemical studies and search for an intelligent force
• Mainstream science’s dismissal of torsion field physics
• How accepting torsion fields would change modern medicine
• The role of the biofield and energy medicine in healing
• Dark matter, dark energy, and the balance of yin and yang
• The CIA’s remote viewing program and its research into consciousness
• Disinformation campaigns in media (e.g., Men Who Stare at Goats)
• Claude Swanson’s work on life force energy and ancient Chinese Chi studies
• Russia’s long-standing scientific research into energy fields
• The pineal gland’s function as a transducer of external signals
• How the pineal gland interacts with life force energy (Chi, Prana, Mana, etc.)
• Ancient indigenous knowledge of the “invisible web” connecting life
• Princeton University’s research on consciousness and global energy fields
• The impact of collective human emotions on the energy field (e.g., 9/11 study)
• How psychedelics like DMT amplify the biofield and alter perception
• The “synchronized universe model” and dimensions existing in parallel
• The pineal gland’s photoreceptors and their role in altered states of consciousness
• How altered brainwave states (e.g., gamma) enable interdimensional perception
• Why mainstream science resists studying the science of consciousness
• The connection between sexual energy, life force energy, and psychedelic experiences

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats, go to http://www.lawayra.com.

Find more about Dr. Jenny Martin at http://www.drjennymartin.com.

Transcript

Sam Believ: You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast.com.

Dr. Jenny Martin: I think Mary Magdalene was the greatest gift in Christianity. She held this wisdom that started me on a quest to understand who this person was, not the person that was lied about, but who this person was. And I ended up discovering that she was the first Alchemist.

She was called Mary the Jew. US Jesus was a Jew, right? And out of all of the different sacred sexual traditions, all of them. Tantra, Daoist, all of that. You use sexuality to get to a certain point in your, as an initiate, then you’re supposed to be celibate. The only one that says that sex as an ongoing spiritual practice is, was originally the Jewish mystical sexual practice, and she was in that lineage, but she brought this understanding of alchemy.

That there could be a rebirth experience, a transformation of consciousness through sex.

Sam Believ: Hi guys, and welcome to Ayahuasca podcast. As always, we do the host. Today I’m having a conversation with Jenny Martin. Dr. Jenny is inspired by democratizing psychedelic states of consciousness and the healing possibilities that could result for the entire planet. She’s passionate about helping people learn about the psychedelic potential that exists within us.

Dr. Jenny is on the mission to elevate our understanding of erotic love and the vital role human sexuality plays in accessing psychedelic states naturally. In this episode, we talk about sacred sexuality. Mary Magdalene, Jewish mystical sexual practices connection between sexual energy and biofields role of Vegas nerve and sexual experience.

What is psychedelic cervix, Kundalini energy torsion fields, and more. Enjoy this episode. This episode is sponsored by LoRa Ayahuasca Retreat. At Laira, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity. Laira, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you. Jenny, welcome to the show.

Dr. Jenny Martin: Nice to be here.

Thanks. Thanks, Sam.

Sam Believ: Jenny, tell us a little bit about yourself and and maybe what brought you to this line of work?

Dr. Jenny Martin: I started out in psychology and spirituality and didn’t really think that the focus on sacred sexuality would be my area. But just like when people work with plant medicine, they find their root, they find their purpose, and it’s not necessarily something that they analytically figured out.

The same thing with this. I had been traveling in different parts of the world, actually, and this sounds strange to say, but the land spoke to me. So one of the most profound experiences I had was I was working in corporate America doing leadership training, doing mindfulness, doing that type of thing.

So I wasn’t in this type of field, but I was taking a vacation in. Greece and I woke up one morning and I didn’t have I had taken no substance, hadn’t even had anything to drink, the night before, anything. But I woke up and I, and it wasn’t like I was with a partner at that time it was, I was on my own and I woke up and I had, I was in another dimension.

And I felt the ancestors of that land calling out to me to bring back the knowledge that was once known about sacred sexuality. Now, I had little glimpse of it prior to that, but I didn’t have the whole understanding. I had personal experiences, but I didn’t have the whole understanding about how there was.

Quite possibly in the Ellucian mysteries, sex was the inner mystery. In the Ellucian mysteries, there was a plant medicine used. But then it almost like being, giving people a reference experience. This is what it feels like to have this divine union. Now we’re gonna show you. To do that through sex right now.

The Ellucian mysteries changed over time and it, when the society became more patriarchal, there was sex, but it was more like drunken orgies and so forth. So we lost that when there was more of a feminine, divine feminine leadership over the whole thing and there was a sacred feminine and there was the worship of Aphrodite and so forth.

There was more of there. There, there’s a sense that. That was a central mystery. So I had that, that awakening of this ancient knowledge when I was in Greece on the land, and I could not even. Leave my room, go have food, do anything. I was immobilized for an entire day and just getting this download.

Now I didn’t know what to do about it, and I didn’t have a clear path, okay, now go and do this. Here’s X, Y, and Z. Here’s a clear path. So it took me some time to unravel that and figure out how to, okay, take this information that was given to me and actually make it into a tangible, professional.

Offering. But it started off in, in that kind of organic way.

Sam Believ: Yeah. ClearPath is not is not a generally a thing in this line of work when you work with something that is not usual, not what’s considered normal. Same, similar thing happened to me when the medicine. The medicine showed me this mission, and then I asked the shamans like what’s the next step?

And they’re like, just drink more medicine. And so I’ve been for the last five years, and it’s a very trickle kind of process. You mentioned that the land spoke to you. Interesting enough in Greece, I’ve interviewed Maria Sophia demarcos, and she’s Greek Greek American. She went, Reta was, I was interviewing her.

She was in Greece. She went to Greece to speak to the land, to ask if the land wants to or should go like temple sites and ask if they want to. They want her to like, recover some of those traditions. So it’s really interesting that you weren’t seeking it, but you got it. And your message was about sacred sexuality.

So can you tell our listeners what is sacred sexuality? I have interviewed one person on the topic, but it was a man. So what is sexual what is sacred sexuality? And especially from the female perspective.

Dr. Jenny Martin: I think it, I think, part of the reason, if I’m like to step back and analyze why that showed up then is because I had a personal experience, with it I’ve had, ongoing personal experiences, it would’ve been totally out of left field if I never had an embodied experience of that.

It’d be like, what the hell are you talking about? But because I knew it, I felt it, it changed me. But I wasn’t paying attention to that in terms of being a teacher of it. And so that’s what that happened. But in terms of how in, in terms of me understanding this and having this these experiences to begin with, it started off with a problem.

Like so many people, with plant medicine, there’s a problem. It’s not always. Just growth, right? So the problem was growing up in Ireland and having a Catholic background and having a very sex negative, a approach, right? My my. Grandma had 20 kids don’t, no belief in contraception and, sex is a duty and all of this type of thing.

And you are not necessarily supposed to enjoy it. You’re just supposed to have kids, right? And here I am with a partner that I wanna spend the rest of my life with. And I didn’t really have any roadmap for good sexual experiences prior to that. It wasn’t it, I could take it or leave it.

It’s that doesn’t enrich my life much. But here I’m in this great with this great person, and it was actually that person that said to me, I think Mary Magdalene was the greatest gift in Christianity. She held this wisdom and, that started me on a quest to understand who this person was, not the person that was lied about, but who this person was.

And I ended up discovering that she was the first Alchemist. She was the first alchemist, or she was called marry the Jew as Jesus was a Jew. And out of all of the different sacred sexual traditions. All of them. Tantra, Daoist, all of that. You use sexuality to get to a certain point in your, as an initiate, then you’re supposed to be celibate.

The only one that says that sex as an ongoing spiritual practice is was originally the Jewish mystical sexual practice, and she was in that lineage, but she brought this understanding of alchemy. That there could be a rebirth experience, a transformation of consciousness through sex. Now, she was also working with, science and, this whole thing about changing metals to gold and all that.

She was working in a very practical way with scientific experiments, and she was writing about that, but it was also knowledge that couldn’t be, blatantly explained because it challenged too much of the, leadership and the priesthood and so forth. So looking at that knowledge of sacred sexuality, what we find is a different wisdom than some of the versions of sacred sexuality that is out there.

For instance, in, in your country, there was a guy that died in 1977, Samuel however you say his last name starts with W but he started a like agnostic Christian, sacred sexuality movement. And his whole thing was no orgasm and no passion. And that’s how you have the alchemical marriage, right? And.

That’s not what I see in Mary, the Js work, her, Mary, the Alchemist, I do not see an elimination of passion and I, in fact, she says very much for the two to become one for this alchemical marriage to happen. It is the fire. That creates that. Now I’ve gone and looked into the science of this to understand, okay, what does that do to the biofield?

What does intense emotion do to the biofield? How does that shift consciousness to really break down what she was saying? So I look at it through that scientific lens as well as having personal experience. And in this other version of sacred sexuality, which is also called. Charisma K-A-Z-E-E-M-A, something like that.

Which again is this idea that you have a sensual connection with another person, but if you get erotically charged, if you get passion, you’re bringing in quote, evil. That’s not what I see. In fact, in the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, she says right there, there’s no sin. So she’s not vilifying passion or lust.

In fact, the etymology of the word lust was religious joy, right? So her Gospel of Mary Magdalene is talking about an evolution of the soul. You can have sex from ego point and I’m going to. Use this person, they’re gonna serve me. I’m gonna have my way with them, which is totally having sex from the ego.

Or you can have sex from the higher self, which is I totally honor and respect and see the, like the sacredness and the reverence we bring to the plant medicine. I’m gonna honor the plant. You bring that same sacredness to your partner I’m gonna honor my partner. But that doesn’t mean I can’t like, get turned on by her, that my passion is bad.

No, passion is what makes this happen. And the other thing that’s out there a lot is it has to be semen retention and it has to be no orgasm and stuff. If you look at the physics of this, ’cause we’re run by vibration. We’re not just material beings. We’re actually quantum beings. If you block that ecstatic point, you’re blocking the transformational, the alchemical shift in consciousness.

Now, it’s very different than conventional sex, which is very goal oriented, and it’s fast and it’s aggressive, right? So this is not. Porn sex, which is let’s just go from point A to B as fast as we can and aggressive. And if you are engaging in things like choking and stuff like that, you are not gonna have the same experience, not because it’s morally wrong, if you understand how the nervous system is wired, if you introduce threat, you are not going to.

Have the ingredients you need for the deepest transition of consciousness into this altered state because the threat create now. Yeah. Anyway, so I said a lot.

Sam Believ: You’re you’re easy to interview because you just talk a lot. ’cause instead of asking 20 questions I would just need to ask like four. So I just need to be careful with my questions.

Let’s talk about, sexual energy sexual act as the sacred union where you can experience change states of consciousness getting high on your own supply, endogenous DMT and all of that together. What would you like to talk, tell about that to the listeners?

Dr. Jenny Martin: So here’s the deal. Critics of this path, which I believe was the original path in Christianity, would say it’s just a dopamine hit. It’s just a feel good, release of pleasure chemicals. But if you understand this whole experience, see, this is why set and setting is so important because if we use the understanding of sex that’s out there in the world today.

Which is basically about getting off, using another person, not giving a crap about them. And that’s, that’s it. Now hooking up with someone and all of that’s totally fine, like there’s no like law against that. But if you want to have the deepest, most. Sublime experience. There needs to be trust.

There needs to be a relationship which allows the deepest surrender. And you’re not surrendering to another person you like. You both are surrendering to your higher self. You’re both are surrendering, knowing that there’s a divinity within you that you’re not gonna be in control. Through the whole experience, right?

So number one, that requires not just a few minutes of intercourse, it requires transitioning from being in your mind to being embodied, right? Because most of us, especially in this, less in Columbia because. People are more intuitive with the land and I’ve been there, I spoke at a conference there and really enjoyed the people.

Very loving, very connected. I’m in Seattle and it’s the hub of technology and there’s this intensity of work, pushing yourself to work and constantly on your phone and constantly being responsive. That does not facilitate. A deep sexual experience, but even if you are in Columbia, just being in the world today, we are living in our heads.

There’s a wonderful book called Stolen Focus, which actually, explains that this guy tried to go on a vacation and leave his phone and he was totally anxious ’cause he left his phone like on purpose, right? So we have to learn something that the ancient people didn’t need to learn about, which is.

How can I be in my body without running all this loop of thoughts in my head? So that’s like a nat, a total prerequisite and non-sexual touch. Touch is a key part of that, especially for women. I. For her to have that experience of touch and not just, okay, they’re going right for the, erotic zones in your body, but for her to have that touch, help settle her out of her mind and into her body, that is a total pre prerequisite.

So when I’m talking about sex, I’m not talking about intercourse, I’m talking about the whole smorgasbord of passionate, kissing, sensual massage, touching the whole thing, right? When I talk to people and I, they say, oh, I’ve never had an experience like that. I don’t know if that’s possible. I ask them what their sex is and it’s usually giving their partner oral sex, her to him usually, and then intercourse.

That is in, not at all a recipe for it to happen like that. It’s never gonna happen like that. First of all, her body can get into a deeper state. Period. Right now, he can get into that deeper state too, if he prepares her first. ’cause his, the male brain is gonna narrowly entrain with the woman during intercourse if she’s adequately prepared in that trans state, right?

So that means there needs to be adequate time spent on helping her become embodied, helping her transition out of her mind into her body, right? And by the way, it just goes without saying if you guys are fighting, if she feels like not appreciated all of those emotional things because the female body, her sexual response system is directly connected to her emotional state.

It’s not like that in the male body. So the vagus nerve is a major mind body pathway when we talk about mind body medicine. For instance, like today, they’re giving people probiotics to heal their pro depression because they realize that there’s a total link. We can’t cut off the mind and body like they do in we western medicine.

That’s doubly true for female sexuality. The vagus nerve connects to her sexual organs. It doesn’t in a male body, so if she’s not feeling loved, appreciated all of those things. She might get wet because wet is happens even if there’s a rape, right? Not because she’s turned on, but because the body is wise and knows that she could get ripped inside if there’s not any lubrication.

So that can certainly happen. So with a woman, sexual arousal is different from sexual desire. There has to be the component of emotional connection. For that sexual de desire to happen. It’s not enough just for her body to show signs. There has to be her mind being engaged at the same time and that’s where the emotion comes in.

And it really is that connection. ’cause the heart is a pump, it’s pumping blood in your body. But we also know that it gives off electromagnetic ways. And when you’re shifting from a state of neutral into a state of open-heartedness and love, you are connecting that electric magnetic energy between the two of you, which is necessary for her to feel that experience.

What we know is when a psychedelic experience happens, there’s a release of oxytocin as well. So a lot of sex to today isn’t including oxytocin. There’s no way you can choke someone and have oxytocin be released, like you’re engaging their threat system, not their safety system. And the safety system needs to be engaged.

So I have been interested in some of the research coming outta the University of Berkeley from a while back about. Measuring the chakras, measuring the science of the chakras, measuring the biofields scientifically, and also looking at what happens when we’re in a psychedelic state and what Valerie Hunt, this one researcher who’s not with us any longer, found that there’s a shift in the biofield, the energy around the body, which is not just new age thought, new age, mumbo jumbo.

It actually can be measured. It can be measured by something called gas discharge visualization, and we can get an actual computer image of the aura around the body. When you’re sending love to your partner, their biofield registers differently than if you guys have just been angry, right? So that is a necessary ex part of it.

When there’s a psychedelic experience, whether it’s through the use of a plant medicine or. Through sex, there is a shift in the biofield. There’s a dramatic shift. That’s why there needs to be a, an intensity of passion and pleasure if it’s just okay. You can have sex and be completely disengaged and go through the motions and go like you’re to, you’re thinking about something else.

You, or you’re thinking about someone else, or you’re fantasizing about someone else and your body’s just going through the motions. Like you can have totally checked out. Sex happens all the time. It’s not like bad or wrong, but that’s not gonna get you there. The kind of sex that’s gonna get you there is when you’re in this, it’s like a trance state, like a shaman.

Dancing around the fire before he does a healing ceremony, he’s getting into that trance state. So that’s what’s required with this, right? You are so absorbed in the moment, you’re so in the moment, you’re not like, okay, you’re not judging yourself, you’re not judging your partner, you’re not thinking about someone else or something else, right?

You’re here now. That’s why it can’t happen in a quick. We’re fucking Now, it can’t happen like that. It has to happen where it’s a slow, progressive thing. But when I say that, people think, okay, boring, or they think not exciting. Absolutely not. It’s not like it’s always gonna be slow and sensual. It can get into the very animalistic, sweaty, intense intercourse.

But you don’t get, you go. You don’t go from A to B. And if you try to just. Fuck a woman and penetrate her deep and hit her cervix right away. She’ll scream in pain. You like you, you can’t do that. It’s, that’s not how it works, right? There has to be enough leading up that by the time intercourse happens, she’s craving the man inside of her.

She’s absolutely craving it because. Her body has been ready for it.

Sam Believ: So you mentioned cervix, and that’s not something we talk a lot about in this podcast, but what is psychedelic cervix?

Dr. Jenny Martin: The cervix is the word cervix means neck. And so if you go see a chiropractor, they’ll talk about adjusting your cervical, part of your spine, but in a woman’s body.

She also has a cervix in her, right below her uterus, right below her womb, and it’s like a donut shaped. And when she menstruates, the blood flows out of there. When she has a child, it widens and the head of the child comes down the vaginal canal from there. But the rest of the time through it has been shown through as actually the records university that country to what scientists thought.

When Masters and Johnson were studying sexuality in the 1950s, they said. This part of a woman’s sexual anatomy. The cervix has no feeling to it. You can do a medical procedure and she’s totally numb down there and that’s all that is. That is blatantly wrong. We found out not only is there tremendous feeling there, there’s the most powerful orgasmic state that’s possible in a woman through that stimulation.

Now, a woman can have a. Cl a gpo, a vaginal orgasm. But this cervical takes much more preparation to get there. You can’t just start having sex and it’s just gonna happen. And usually there needs to be stimulation to the her clitoris stimulation for a G spot before the cervix is gonna be activated.

Time and time again when women have had this experience, they talk about it, a shower of stars. They talk about feeling like they’re transported to another dimension. They talk about going beyond a sense of feeling, just love of their partner, like a sense of other worldly love, like just absolutely beyond magical than, definitely full bodied.

But it’s all it is. Often described as dissolving of the self, like just completely dissolving of the self and it being, incredibly powerful. And when that experience has happened for me, the power that was sent through, like there’s definitely something about Kundalini that is real before I even knew that was a thing.

Definitely rising up my spine. And here’s another thing. I didn’t have to make it happen and I haven’t had to make it happen. You don’t have to force, these are natural processes. That’s what I really got from when I looked at Mary. The, the Alchemist too. She’s not saying you have to manipulate nature or do magic.

These, this is the way, if you fully prepare the body and have this passion and this intensity, this is the way the body is designed. The body is designed to move this energy. We don’t have to like, okay, I’m gonna make it, I’m gonna force it. You don’t like, the body is designed for that. And so when the two people are, that connected during sex, it’s not okay, she’s having this fantastic experience and he’s over here like thinking, wow, must be nice.

No the neural entrainment causes that immersion to happen where they are both experiencing the same thing. At the same time. And orgasming at the same time and, but this other worldly experience is happening for both of them.

Sam Believ: Yeah. The the psychedelic cervix, another thing about cervix is the birth.

And that’s where it widens, as you say, the to, to the 10. 10 is the point. I know it because I am a father of three. And so my wife with the, in her late latest birth she had, she, I was with her and she was like, I feel like I’m just had ayahuasca. Very DMT very psychedelic experience. Just through the natural mean.

So how would you explain that, what is a, is it DMT, is it something else? Like how come? And most importantly like. What is the why would that happen, is from the na nature point of view?

Dr. Jenny Martin: For nature’s point of view, so DMT as we know, ex exogenous, DMT. In laboratories and so forth.

When they’re doing research, they’re looking at using it for stroke victims to when the brain is dying to create an oxidative effect to save the dying brain, they’re actually looking at using that in emergency rooms, so it has this powerful oxidative effect. So you can just imagine the little babies traveling through this like little narrow passageway.

If it loses oxygen at any point along the way, it’s lights out. So it’s nature’s way of making sure that the baby has, the baby’s brain is gonna be safe. Now, at the same time, there’s, the thing is in western medicine, we don’t trust the body and we think the body somehow is flawed and it doesn’t have the ability to do things.

Women have been having birth forever and. They probably had more ecstatic births before we got much into the medical science, but the natural part of birth is if the woman feels saved not observed. If she feels, her, she, her space is you honored and so forth, she can get into this very altered state.

It’s nature’s way of making this ecstatic union for both making this not a painful experience. Certainly there’s the experience that’s uncomfortable, but on another level, we were designed not to be overcome with that extreme agony. We were designed if we work with the body to actually have ecstasy.

The what has been shown is cervical stimulation. Vaginal cervical stimulation actually lights up the perial ductal gray in the brain. That is the part of the brain that modulates pain, and so with cervical stimulation, it’s actually turning that off. And so this, the baby is stimulating this. Now, if you are in a tensed up state, like you’re real, ’cause we condition people, we give people the set and setting in, in, at least in America, that it’s gonna be the most painful experience of your life.

We have bright lights on them, we monitor ’em, all this stuff. So likely your nervous system is gonna be in a state of freeze or it’s gonna be in a stressed out state, so you’re not in the, you don’t have the prerequisites that are necessary for allowing what needs to happen. There’s also something that’s called a fetal ejection reflex that, that has been discovered, but again, not recognized in, in western medicine.

And that is, if the woman feels safe, there’s this. Natural processor happens where there’s a surge of oxytocin. Now, oxytocin is responsible for the contractions, but it’s also, it’s not just a hormone, it’s also a neurotransmitter. And our bodies, women’s bodies, are designed to actually, with this surge of oxytocin, to push the baby out without.

Much labor at all. So the, all these things are possible. Do they happen? Rarely they happen, but that’s not because the human body isn’t magical. It’s because the ways that we try to intervene and the stories we tell people about what it’s gonna be like and mind over matters. Very powerful. But, and that’s wonderful that your wife had that experience.

Sam Believ: Yeah, she really compared it with with the Ayahuasca experience. ’cause it was very similar. She was having realizations and like profound experience where, you know, something you’d need to integrate afterwards. You mentioned Energies and Kundalini. What are your thoughts about, sexual energy, Kundalini energy and, I recently been told that, there’s the healing energy that shamans use, for example is the sexual energy, it’s the same energy. What do you think about that? Do you agree or not? And whether we can how do we get this energy, through, through work, through this sacred sexuality in a couple, for example.

Dr. Jenny Martin: So I’m trying to figure out which question to answer.

Sam Believ: Whatever comes to mind.

Dr. Jenny Martin: Oh, okay. Is it the energy of the shaman? That’s an interesting question. The very first thing I thought about was, that fine line that can happen with abuse, right? So that, that is something to think about there.

But. Yeah I would say it’s that I look at it from the science and there it’s, you know what it is, it’s actually also the energy when you go to acupuncture, it’s that she energy. So it’s the emotion that we bring to it that can make it sexual or not. So if the shaman stays in their presence of, I’m gonna be this, this guardian of safety, this person and not go down, they can feel that sensation but not go down that path right then.

That this, that is the power that we all have. We have the power of intention, right? And we can steward where this energy is gonna go, right? We’re not just we’re not like, that’s the difference between us and an animal. We’re not just overtaken by something and then we have no ability to do anything.

Our intention, this is why I believe these things were not just handed out. This information was not just. Hand it out to people. You have to go to the mystery school. You have to go through initiations. You have to have spiritual integrity ’cause you’re dealing with very powerful energy. One of the things that can happen is a rape can happen and someone can have a Kundalini rising.

And then what you have is a very disintegrated person, almost like a schizophrenic type state, so they can speak to other worldly beings. They can have access, they might have visions, but they feel like crap within their self-esteem. They have no self-esteem. They might be totally depressed feel very socially anxious.

They can totally commune with beings. So that’s a very nonintegrated Kundalini rising, and that can be very dangerous. This is why. Or it can just drive you flat out crazy like you’re walking down a street and nobody has told you that the world is not just material. That the world is non-physical too, and the other world starts bleeding into this world and you feel like you’re losing your mind.

So that happens today. I’ve had people talk to me that they’ve ended up on a psychiatrist couch because they had a psychedelic experience, either through something they’ve done naturally or taking a plant and nobody validated what it was. And they ended up going through the, getting psychiatric drugs.

But for us today, for us to realize. That sex is not just a physical act. Sex involves our energy, our, it involves this biofield, it involves this life force energy, and this is the energy that is the access. It’s our connection to other dimensions. Now, I believe DMT allows us to have the perception. It works with this energy to like, you could access another dimension but not be able to perceive it.

But DMT within us allows us to actually perceive it. The whole idea of your third eye awakened you, you have the access to this other. Plane of existence and you can actually see it. But the trick is, are you prepared for all of that spiritual download? Are you grounded in your life? Can you still hold down a job and a relationship and all of those things when you’re floating off into other dimensions?

So there’s this balance, and when we’re talking about sex and we’re talking about. Merging with another person. One of the things when I’m working with women especially you can’t lose your ego until you found it. So that would be the definition of codependency. That would be a recipe for problems.

And the other thing that I would. Needs to also be understood is that this is not about this process of ego, death and rebirth through sex is not about killing the ego at all because we are here as an individual expression of the divine, and that needs to. Be retained and the ego death experience is just letting you tap in on more of your authentic self so that when you out are outliving your life and you’re at your job and you’re doing your very 3D thing, you’re doing it with more of all of who you are.

You’re not just this egoless creature, which. Has been talked about in the realm of sacred sexuality. There’s a sense you have to annihilate the ego and you have to get to the state of perfection that isn’t at all what I teach. And that’s not what I see in the early doctrines of Gospel of Philip and these different things.

It’s not that at all

Sam Believ: because ego is basically the default mode network, right? The part of our brain that. Is running when we’re bored, not just daydreaming. And I guess that in a, in that sacred sexual experience, the generally, you don’t tend to think about much. You focus, so it probably goes away for a bit, same as with Ayahuasca.

It maybe gets paused for a little bit and then gets brought back, but slightly. Maybe fixed or rebuilt in a better way. So it’s it’s good for it to have some rest. You talk a lot about set and settings. So what is the necessary set and settings? For example for couples that are listening and they don’t want to maybe travel to South America to drink ayahuasca, but they wanna have a beautiful.

Spiritual experience just through, through sex. What is the sad setting they should use?

Dr. Jenny Martin: Part of it is looking at what have my beliefs been, what beliefs are driving me about sex, and that there is so something a little bit unique about that somebody may have grown up with a very sex negative viewpoint.

Another person. It doesn’t have a lot of those hangups about shame and guilt and so forth. So there is an aspect to it that is a little bit, individual, but in general understanding. Because here’s the thing, with the plant medicine, the way it’s being used today, especially in corporate, pharmaceutical companies, they are eliminating any of the.

Ritual, they’re eliminating any other tradition. They’re eliminating the understanding and the ceremony can end up being empty, directionalist, and even confusing, the experience can be all of those things. And we could also say the same thing about sex. We could say the way that sex is shown to us on porn and so forth, it’s meaningless.

It’s just like two physical parts of the body connecting and that’s it. And how on earth can you jump from that to something that’s transformative? You can’t start with that as a reference point because the only conclusion you’re gonna get from that is somewhat of a empty directional. That sense of, is that all there is?

But it’s when you. Bring a sense of you being more than a physical being you, being this divine being, and not that, interestingly enough, what we see in the gospel of Philip is not this sense that you are filled of darkness and sin that you have to somehow purify yourself. No, it’s that you’re filled with light and what the sexual act is.

Is bringing forth this light. It’s actually magnifying this light body that is you, and that your original essence is this love. Now it’s buried deep within you. Probably if you got hurt enough in relationships, you’ve just turned that off and you just go through sex without any kind of feeling, right?

So it’s. The process of learning to reengage from an emotional level, reengage from heart level, but also it’s the larger sense of, okay, what is sex? Could it be an experience where I surrender to, but not the surrender in terms of domination and submission, but surrender to a spiritual reality. We take for granted this sense that, okay, if we have sex, we can create this life form, this being right.

That in and of itself shows that there’s something magical at play there, and there is, there’s the science behind this as well. So we have yin and yang. This comes to the science of torsion, which is the fifth force in physics. More than different than electromagnetic energy. It connects us to the cosmos.

It’s the science of consciousness. So torsion is torsion physics actually was first looked at by Russian scientist an astrophysicist, and it has to do with. Something that Einstein had been working on but couldn’t actually he couldn’t come up with a math for it, but these Russian scientists actually discovered that there is a force that connects all of the other forces.

So it’s a fifth force in physics. And, who had been looking for this intently was. Isaac Newton. So Isaac Newton was an alchemist and he said, I just can’t believe that all these interactions are happening in the universe at a cellular level, just on their own. Like the coordination, the order, the symmetry, the synchrony.

I gotta believe there’s some intelligent force connecting it all. And he knew that. He went, he actually wrote over a million pages on the topic of alchemy during his life. And what basically, Smithsonian Institute has published a whole manuscript on, on this, and it has been re-looked at in modern day.

But for the most part, the conclusion from mainstream science is, nah. It’s not true. And there’s one caveat here is if we accepted the fact that there was this force that ran our body that was actually underneath the level of the biochemistry of our body. So yes, we ha or where full, biochemistry is important to us, but that this is a level deeper, even deeper than the quantum level, and it has to do with.

Fluctuations in the field and what is actually motivating all these other reactions to happen. And if we actually did accept that this was true science, it would change the way that medicine is done. We wouldn’t but just be treating people with chemicals to change their illnesses. We would be treating the biofuel, we’d be treating the energy because this is what is actually.

Running things. Now you asked about the torsion field. So this is a field that it has to do with dark matter, dark energy which is the right hand torsion and left hand torsion. And so dark matter being left hand torsion and women carry more left hand torsion men. It’s like the yin and the yang too.

What the person that I’ve really drawn a lot of information from is a man that was a physicist, educated at MIT and educated at Princeton, and he just died a few years ago. And he went to these prestigious schools and learned physics, but he never learned about a science of consciousness. He never learned that we could influence the field.

He never learned that there was this life force energy. Until he went to work for the CIA and they were taking remote viewing very seriously, and they were bringing Ingo Swan and different people and studying them. And even though there’s a lot of disinformation out there, including that movie, men Who Stare at Goats, a lot of strategic disinformation, if you go online and.

Look at Claude Swanson’s website, which is still up and buy one of his 700 pages books, which chronicles all this research. We can see that the science of life force energy well dates back to ancient China with a study of Qi and in the body. But really it was Russian scientists that really put this in a new.

Modern day scientific lens and did scientific the Russian government has for decades been studying this now. Okay. You asked about the pineal gland. So the pineal gland is the coordinator of rhythms in the body’s coordinator of signals in the body, the circadian rhythm, being able to be a transducer of signals from the external world.

So it operates based on vibration. And what CL Swanson had talked about in one of his books on this is that when the pineal gland is charged with this life force energy, which other words for it is Kundalini. Another word for it is prana. Another word for it is chi. Another word for it is mana In the Christian.

Lineage mana. So there’s all these words for it. Every ancient society knew it existed. Every shaman knew it existed, every shaman, they all knew there was an invisible. I live in Seattle. Chief Seattle, the, the native leader here. He, there’s quotes that still exist today where he said, there’s a web of life that connects us all.

There’s this invisible web. This is what we’re talking about. This is the science of what we’re talking about. That apparently does not exist, but this is the science of consciousness. Princeton University, when they had this consciousness lab set up, they don’t have it anymore. They. Studied what? How human consciousness can affect the field, right?

This is not us just being passive beings run by this force. We actually, through our intention, through our emotion, affect it. And we can do that individual and we can do that collectively. They discovered that. At nine 11 when there was a drastic shift in emotion collectively that was picked up in the field, that was picked up in a, as a change in the field.

So this science exists, it has been covered up, but it helps us to understand that when there’s this shift in our biofield, when. I believe, not, I believe Valerie Hunt has shown this, that when you take a psychedelic, you are charging this life force energy within you and you’re charging your field.

It’s like a turbo boost to it, right? Rather than doing it slowly and naturally in sex. But when you turbo boost this you’re, especially with DMT, you’re transporting yourself to another dimension. And this life force energy science helps us to understand. Okay, this is not happening in the brain.

This is not just your default mode network going offline. This is not just that. This is you. Swanson talks about a synchronized universe model, which is these other dimensions are not often another location. They’re right here in the room that you’re in right now. The only reason you’re not aware of them is ’cause your consciousness not, is not synchronized with them.

So the synchronized universe model says that when this torsion shifts in your body and it reaches your pineal gland, you know when it’s your pineal gland is infused with this, you. There’s photo, there’s cones and rods in the pineal gland photoreceptors. It is equipped with the same capacity to see as the eyeball, but it’s the middle of your head.

It’s not to see in 3D World, it’s to see when you are in a gamma brainwave state. When your brainwaves have changed significantly enough, this kicks in and you can see so. To be able to conceptualize how all this happens. We need the signs of life force energy and so anyway,

Sam Believ: thank you for explaining this.

It’s all very interesting. We don’t talk about sex on sexual energies often enough on the podcast. So I was really happy to have you over. Sorry for the technical difficulties. I know now you gotta run, so please let the audience know where they can find you if they’re interested to, to learn more about your work.

Dr. Jenny Martin: Sure. Dr. Jenny martin.com is in my website, d and then y Yeah. martin.com. Yeah.

Sam Believ: Thank you Jenny. There’s many more things I’d like to talk to you about. I still have more topics, but yeah, let’s let’s finish it for now. Thank you so much. It was really interesting.

Dr. Jenny Martin: Sure. Yeah. Great to talk with you and feel free to email me and I’m happy to reply.

Sam Believ: Thank you guys. You’ll be listening to our podcast. As always. We do the host and leave, and I will see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you’d like to support us and psychedelic Renaissance at large, please follow us and leave us a like wherever it is you’re listening. Share this episode with someone who will benefit from this information.

Nothing in this podcast is intended as medical advice, and it is for educational and entertainment purposes only. This episode is sponsored by LoRa Ayahuasca Retreat. At Laira, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity. Laira, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you.

Very unique format podcast where one of the LaWayra Ayahuasca retreat guests is interviewing a shaman (Taita) Fernando. And one of the facilitators Nico is translating.

This should give you a good insight into the Shamans mind.

Transcript

Sam Believ: You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast.com.

Hi guys, and welcome to Ayahuasca podcast. This time it’s something very different. We are going to have a very hybrid interview. Here with t Mano Nico will be translating. Crystal is gonna be the one asking the question. So Crystal and I came to the retreat about a month ago and she reached out to me about wanting to interview t to make a, an article.

And I said, why don’t we record a video? And this way we can all keep the video. I’ve been trying to get an interview with Venado for a very long time and he’s never really wanted to do it, but, recently he stopped being camera shy. So finally, now we can, the moment has come.

So the formula of this interview will be crystal asking questions to Fernando and Nico will be translating. So I won’t be in it. I will be behind the camera. So Crystal walk us through it. What’s different,

Crystal: Sam?

Sam Believ: This episode is sponsored by Lara Ayahuasca Retreat. At Lara, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity.

Lara Connect. Heal, grow guys. I’m looking forward to hosting you.

Crystal: So as Sam mentioned, I was privileged enough to attend the Levi retreat. Very fascinated with this healing space and also with Tya and his skills as a shaman. The interview today, I spoke with many other guests at the retreat and they. Gave me some questions.

I’ve got my questions and we’ve divided the interview into three sections. The first section is the background, which we’ll deal with Tia’s life in the Amazon. The next section will be about the actual Ayahuasca ceremony, and the third section of the interview will be about the Amazon.

Taita Fernando: Awesome. Great.

Beautiful. Yes.

Crystal: Yes.

Taita Fernando: We shall be good.

Crystal: Ready? Awesome. Okay. Still. So Tata, many of the patients at Lorea are very interested in your background.

Can you please tell us about life in your village

Taita Fernando: Into.

We can summarize a little bit because it’s a lot of years

his family has been working with the medicine from generation to generation.

Nico: His family has been the ones cultivating the medicine for many years and now they’re, they prepare the

Taita Fernando: medicine harvest.

And throughout the whole

Nico: process, when his father started

Taita Fernando: topping Tuan to his children about the medicine and how it works,

he began to find some interest in Ayahuasca, Jackie,

Nico: because then there’s also other kids that just had no interest for the medicine. Okay,

and when, and no moment in his life that he felt like he was forced to participate in the medicine. His pal, his family would tell him that this all comes from real heart. So if you wanna do this, let it be from your heart.

Taita Fernando: For him and his family. It was something that was magical that just grew in him, that he wanted to work with his culture, work with his medicine,

very beautiful. ’cause nowadays, because he a lot of indigenous groups, they cannot schools us different, that dedicate themselves to different things.

Nico: And it’s only a few of ’em that have continued this path and this tradition of working with the medicine.

So as him being a child and his brothers and sisters they started understanding more of the medicine with

Taita Fernando: his grandparents,

Nico: the wisdom of what this ancestral medicine brings and the visions and the, and the effects of

Taita Fernando: what this medicine can do.

But

Nico: it was a little challenging because working with the medicine and as he was turning a teen in his adult lives was kinda hard for him to work with this, but trying to understand it more.

Because him observing other s and other shamans working with the medicine, he would see from his part that some other people

Taita Fernando: won’t use the medicine in an accurate correct way.

So he would question himself and be like, why are they acting this way

Nico: or participating in this manner working with this medicine.

Taita Fernando: From there, that’s when this path began. In how old were you

and that time he was 12, 30 years old.

The differences from him was that he didn’t wanna be a shaman that drinks alcohol,

that just wants to go and travel around the world, trying to give medicine, but at the end, feel empty in their hearts.

In

Nico: nowadays, now in his age, he’s been able to see that this is something very like marked that a lot of Titus do and he is, he’s able to witness that as his age now.

And this is just not for him to downtalk other S or put ‘

Taita Fernando: em into shame or anything like that. It’s just something that he said that this is not what I want to do because there is a lot of s that have a lot of knowledge, very respected and wise. And of course, as a little child, he was able to see all these.

Understanding how to cook the me or how to prepare the medicine

because the music has been his heart,

because

Nico: the music, as you can tell, is a huge part of the ceremony. It’s very important.

Especially for them because there’s a lot of communities that do it differently.

Taita Fernando: So now just to summarize it, he just feels very content and happy that he’s able to share this

Nico: medicine and especially where he’s at right now in his life.

Taita Fernando: That is the very small summary

because of course there’s a lot of experiences that he’s gone through.

Yeah. At the age of 24 is when he started learning about the world

Nico: and started traveling.

Taita Fernando: Amania.

Germany Mexico, Argentina, Chile, Venezuela,

where the medicine has taken him.

Crystal: Can you ask. I understand that the shaman received a message that they were to lead the Amazon and bring the medicine to the outside world as Tata’s explaining. Can he share the story of why the medicine came out of the Amazon?

Taita Fernando: He’s not too sure because I guess from his culture, just he’s not sure if it’s through ego or in a sense of making it seem like this medicine’s only for us.

But in reality, the virus is for all humanity

because it’s a creation from God that he led here for humanity

privilege. ’cause he has this indigenous blood

Nico: and have the, and be fortunate to feel, to know about this medicine ahead of time, obviously. Yeah.

Taita Fernando: So it was a very beautiful moment where we had the

Nico: opportunity. We had the opportunity to understand more about the SPI medicine.

Crystal: Yeah. For people who don’t know what Ayahuasca is.

Taita Fernando: The last question you asked.

It’s important that,

that’s very important to know that now the medicine is now being able to be shared amongst the whole world. Si.

Because one, there’s been a lot of people that have come from different countries

that.

And some came with respect to, to come here and took the medicine

and others saw that they can have control with this medicine and gain money out of it. And then that’s another reason why they started taking it to other countries.

In the same way, like them as indigenous people,

they also, that

Nico: they could also share, share,

Taita Fernando: go out of the world with their knowledge para to go to shares

and at the same time not have this be seen like just another drug.

Because there’s a lot of people that drink this medicine that just see like another drug.

Nico: Because they just put it like a recreational taboo fan,

and they’re not giving any disrespect and this honor how the medicine should be receding.

Taita Fernando: The same way that other

Nico: started

Taita Fernando: leaving the

Nico: communities and sharing this medicine around the world. This medicine was also contributed around the world because of people that were just, curious about the medicine that came from different countries. And it came here and then started, spreading it out to outside world.

Yeah.

Crystal: I see. How would you describe your relationship? With the medicine,

Taita Fernando: very magical.

Something very magical. ’cause both the medicine as he was a child.

Nico: The middle of, through the taking of this medicine,

Taita Fernando: he was able to discover music more

what it represents, the music and ceremony.

The medicine is just as a plant.

That allows us to connect with our entire master self,

and this medicine is what releases things that inspire us.

Nico: It all depends on us to receive what is it that the medicine is trying to give us.

Taita Fernando: So we receive the medicine in the accurate way, how it’s supposed to be. It’s with law,

Nico: it’s a magical connection with your higher self.

Crystal: Ah do you take the medicine total like every day? Two Titus.

Taita Fernando: There was Aton when they were in school to,

they would take the medicine very,

but not just the medicine, even other plants that would allow ’em to get, gain more strength

to be, to get more stroke with the medicine spiritually.

Nico: And that was throughout when he was in

Taita Fernando: school to learn how to work in this field.

And that’s why nowadays it surprises him a lot.

There’s a lot of people that come here to drink one or two months of medicine

Nico: and they’re already here given medicine. Serving medicine,

Taita Fernando: there is something very strong, but this is pretty

Nico: much his connection with the medicine.

Crystal: Yeah. A beautiful connection. Yeah. To be a part of the ceremony is is a very special thing to receive the medicine. And many of the patients were wondering this because the ceremony starts with, type of singing and what are you saying they would like to know

Taita Fernando: at the moment that they’re doing this prayer, which is also known as. In their tradition,

they’re asking to the higher force, a higher SM

Nico: to

Taita Fernando: God

that throughout this prayer, the speaker that they’re utilizing with connection with God.

Nico: Is utilizing this prayer and putting

Taita Fernando: all the intention and love and light to this medicine to be able to prepare to serve it.

But like the same thing when you go and you pay for a ticket in the airplane. You have your ticketing, you have your seats

because you’re what somebody professional that’s gonna, pilot you and.

Nico: And so as him being the pilot, that God has given him the opportunity to be able to share with all these souls around him and him be able to be that pilot for everybody.

Crystal: We’re always curious because when you go up to receive your medicine how do you know how much medicine to give someone?

Taita Fernando: A

Nico: lot

Taita Fernando: of times it’s mostly the experience, right? ’cause it’s a lot of years. Yes.

Thousands of people. He had this opportunity

and millions of eyes that he connects with.

And one thing that does not is what reflects on your stare.

A lot of times he focuses in your look in your eyes to see how is it that you’re coming up to the altar? S And a lot of times it’s from their energy, how they approach,

because through the energetic. Force. They also feel the patients. They feel the people.

And a lot of times they could also see through the people situations

is a little bit,

Nico: is is

Taita Fernando: respecting you a little bit. You will see more about your life.

’cause every life has their own privacy.

And that’s why a lot of times people come to have a consult consultation with him

because Volunt voluntarily, they want to tell by their stories.

So also with what the people have explained to him. So not only the experience that he handle, that he has also connection with your eyes and your stare, and you reflect these, your energy,

and having that consultation between him and the person to have this vehicle connection to understand what is it about this person

is where the dosage comes in place.

And a lot of the patients, this is where medicine awakens these emotions si.

Crystal: It’s so much, there’s so much involved, like reading energies and

Taita Fernando: Yeah. See, yeah.

Says when you have the experience and the knowledge in all these years

Crystal: and special, I think special skills too, like within

Taita Fernando: something like their intuition that awakens the medicine.

Crystal: Okay. That’s amazing. After someone has taken the medicine and we’re all lying in the maloca on our beds, quiet. Like I know for me, when I was having a bad moment, I felt Titus presence granting me. So what is he doing when we’re all laying there?

Taita Fernando: It’s the same way he, that he was telling you. Yes, same. It’s the same analogy that we’re gonna use with the airplane.

Exactly. And you take that with when we take your cup

energetic, he’s, I have energy on that cup where he is doing his s his singing,

for example, 20 or 30 patients that are in the space. Yep. Begin to enter this process or the process with the.

The T themselves are also in their process as well. Meditating, doing prayers for everyone that’s in the space.

People perceive in a D in different ways,

and there will be one that won’t perceive him in a,

Nico: because it is energy.

Crystal: Ah, okay. Ah, it’s amazing. I couldn’t imagine to see the world through, through your eyes.

Taita Fernando: But the same way, it could be magical. He also wants to tell everybody that there are also s,

they’re not different than anybody else. They also have their emotions. They also have their battle interior battles.

And even with that, with all the knowledge that they’ve gained over all these years, yeah.

Nico: It’s also important that whoever wants to partake in this medicine is to understand or know where is

Taita Fernando: it they’re gonna take the medicine, who they’re drinking with.

Yes. There will be a lot that can make they can present themselves like Gods. Or make them or they, or feel like they’re superior and everybody else.

In reality, the ones that do understand the medicine and really understand how to serve this medicine,

what makes them different is that they do have their own school.

And so even their, the rope or their clothing that they wear in ceremony.

That can probably make ’em look a little different from everybody else because of what they’re wearing.

In essence, they’re also human in with emotions.

Crystal: I have to ask like T School, Shipman School,

how do you get into Tida school?

Taita Fernando: Wow.

Nico: First thing, the school, the way it should be is obviously starting from,

Taita Fernando: what does he mean by zero

Nico: is,

Taita Fernando: To start given service. How light, picking up a little piece of paper,

the most basic things, the most minimal things,

when you start falling in love with, giving a little paper tissue to somebody or to be able to share some water to somebody means that you’re advancing. And of course you’re also drinking medicine.

Nico: So a lot of times what happens is a lot of people wanna learn about the medicine

Taita Fernando: and they’ll tell them, oh, here, go pick up that little piece of paper, or go take this little, take this water, this to this person. End up going, nah, I don’t wanna do that.

And so it’s little things that start from the beginning, from the most minimal things, medicine.

Nico: His dad, his teacher stars. Increases the doses, starts increasing the wisdom, more knowledge, but it all starts from the most basicness. Yeah. From

Crystal: You have to prove yourself to go up to the next level.

Nico: And very beautiful. Those situations, those moments of how it builds into where he is now.

Crystal: Wow. I can’t imagine. I don’t know if you can answer this, but someone asked of all of the times that you have given the medicine, what’s been the cra and I don’t wanna say crazy, but the strangest thing perhaps that he’s ever witnessed or.

Taita Fernando: Story of himself.

Crystal: Oh, okay.

Taita Fernando: In Spain, ante.

And so they were in this do inside this dome,

okay? Remember there was a lot of patients and everybody already had drink medicine.

And so at this time, everybody’s earning the medicine already kicking in, and everything now is in silence in this dome.

And it was very beautiful because everybody was quiet and there was like a clear sound inside the dome,

but there was a moment where everybody started bomb.

In the donut and in the dough. It sounded like there was all these microphones because it just, I it

Amplified all the bombing

so remembers that night when everybody was all inside that dome. He ends up leaving the dome.

And so he started going up some staircase far away from the outside of the dome. And he sits down in the chair and out of nowhere his body leaves his whole Jesus’ body. So something left his body and he can see himself that he’s sitting this way. He was just observing himself.

He would look towards the sky.

It was like so infinite. It’s almost like a microscope. Like he could see distances on the where right there. And then he was saying to himself, I’m looking at his body right there.

I’ve just died.

And his body is just like that.

Now he’s saying to himself, great. Now my family, he’s equal. Just keep my kids. Yeah.

Already gonna take my bottom pack to Colombia. Jack is during Spain.

He was observing himself from the France.

Went outta nowhere. A friend of his started going up the staircase that also drank medicine. The organ organizer of the event

begins to touch char, wake him up. No, he didn’t respond. No.

Because him being in the chair and his eyes were closed, and him that was right in front of his own body was basically the observer of seeing what was going on.

So and his spirit self started going down the staircase. And he went to go see the patients and see how they’re doing.

Everybody’s doing good, and he just returns. The organizer, the guy who did the event, he ran downstairs because he got scared to see t.

He used his wire and his c it’s the liquid that he uses to, to his partner. Went up there, brought his own wire, and c

man, he tells that he is like, Hey, I’m gonna help you. I’m gonna, I’m gonna, I’m gonna blow this on you.

And of course he couldn’t respond, but the one that was standing up, which was him outside of his body, he was like yeah, do that. And, but he wasn’t able to see him because he’s a superior. And the moment that the friend does the blow of the chand

And later on to.

And as he’s doing the spray his soul was started to unify back to his body. Finally came at he is birthday and he just wakes up and was like, what happened?

Crystal: How did you bring the pieces of that together? What does that mean?

Taita Fernando: Which just means that sometimes in our body,

what is the,

you have no sense of timing.

And then of course, a lot of, for a lot of, for many years or a lot of time, you don’t tend to understand what that means

or that maybe out of many years she wasn’t able yet to understand what the message was,

is to understand or to learn how valuable it is to cherish life.

And the value of being next to the people that love you

was the beings that you wanna be around with.

So that experience was to see, to feel something very strong and maybe something that at the moment he couldn’t understand. And he started experience many years ago. Yes.

When, but the same way that this something happened to him not too

Nico: long ago that he got some, had surgery on his thigh. Yeah.

Taita Fernando: And that’s where he finally understood that may understood what that meant, where maybe at that time you didn’t understand what that meant at that time. That life is an instant,

that life is just a moment. And any time, I could always end

that at the end, the only.

So kids is your family, it’s your friends, it’s everything that’s around you that makes you happy now.

And so that’s why he’s telling you about an experience that happened many years ago

that can also for example, him couldn’t understand. But he had to go through something very strong and challenging

something very strong because the Dr. Trump, we need to do surgery or you’re gonna die. And this is, and he don’t say the December, and this was on the 16th of December, and today we’re on the 6th of January. So this is that last mark. And he’s still here with us

and sharing this transcendental,

you just don’t understand at that time

then to recognize who we are and what we’re all.

Crystal: Ah, wow. And I to build on that question about integration, because there’s so many different ayahuasca experiences like sensory, visual what is.

Yeah. For people who have, are leaving the Ayahuasca retreat, what recommendation does Tata have for successful integration?

Taita Fernando: It’s a little complicated because there’s very few people that wanna open up and talk about their lives and share with him.

Obviously can’t have this connection with everybody. Obvious share. So a little, sometimes a little bit.

The most important. Pen of leaving a transcendental experience begin changing habits.

We lot of times, for example, we go every day. We leave every day to go drinks some alcohol.

If you’ve already had this transcendental experience, that’s the moment to stop that.

Give yourself some time to see the experience that you’ve lived

can, and the same way with what you eat, what you smoke with, what because all these days is what creates us an experience and creates this pan this moment that can bring difficulty into your life.

So the best way to integrate is. By changing habits so that way you can, so that way it could last longer the

Nico: experience that you’ve lived with. The medicine you’ve had with the medicine,

Taita Fernando: but that’s obviously voluntarily volunteer from yourself.

Because it, it needs to come out from the heart. If not, it’s just, it can’t be just something like

Nico: halluc and just temporary and that’s it. It needs to building that chain.

Taita Fernando: But if the patient or a person takes it with respect that this is a medicine,

the mess is gonna continue to work with you. The moment you beat the space and we go back at home.

Another thing that would be very important or beautiful is for them to continue listening to medicine, to meditate, so that way it also, within those modalities more answers.

This would be something that you would recommend when you listen to take care of yourself.

Crystal: Same. Just two more questions. I, and I should backtrack. So for anyone who is considering ayahuasca medicine, maybe they’re a little nervous, what advice does Tai to have for them?

Taita Fernando: First off is to give themselves that opportunity to learn about this medicine,

to investigate very well where is it that they’re gonna be drinking this medicine at Jackie? Line. Responsibility, because then res, the irresponsib, the irresponsible. Way of how some people get this medicine could also bring very bad consequences.

And so for those that wanna learn about this, to learn more about the medicine, to learn where they’re gonna be drinking and who they’re gonna be drinking with.

Because nowadays the one that wants to sell you a car sells a very beautiful.

Nico: So it’s very important and you don’t just listen or hear from others, but that you also

Taita Fernando: do the investigation and that you follow your heart and trust,

and to now lose this opportunity to learn more about yourself.

Don’t be scared of your own self

because the medicine’s also a journey of ourselves inside

contracts.

Nico: And so for those that wanna know about the medicine and give

Taita Fernando: this chance that to not have fear of finding more about themselves,

the medicine doesn’t kill people,

doesn’t leave you crazy.

What makes that things happen? Because there is cases like that.

There is people that give medicine, that leave the people even worse. I person, there’s people that give medicine that have killed other people

Nico: because of your responsibility.

I think is the same way he told you just a few minutes ago.

Because if you don’t have that knowledge of being able to center that person

Taita Fernando: again

in the process of medicine, the purchase like this,

when you get into a profound experience with the medicine, you begin to basically energetically dismantle.

So if you can’t, as a shaman be able to put him back to where he was, the person can damaged.

Nico: Important to investigate because the same way that the medicine could

Taita Fernando: do beautiful things, the people do beautiful things with the medicine, is the same way that other

Nico: people would do bad things with the medicine.

Crystal: Yeah. I can certainly speak to Lara and this is a very safe and caring space, so I recommend the medicine here.

With the medicine is it the same recipe every time?

Taita Fernando: There’s different types of medicine.

When the medicine, it could be the same recipe

or like an example, 10 liters of medicine

and that every time you’ll drink the same medicine for two years. Oh, okay. It’s what changes is what’s in medicine that you’re drinking.

Stress becomes different

based on your change and evolution of things that you’re now understanding. Huh? Oh, okay. The medicine consider gives you, give you something different every time.

Crystal: Oh, okay. I always wondered if it was like cooking, sometimes you put in more salt, but the medicine is the same.

Taita Fernando: No.

There’s the cases where there’s different, types of cha

or different classes of lineages.

So

Nico: I believe it’s a shrub and the Chev I’m not sure if I can say that in English, but I can

Sam Believ: yeah.

Taita Fernando: Yeah. So it’s just two

Nico: ingredients

Taita Fernando: that are used. Okay.

Another communities, they just add more plants, ano.

Nico: Shrub and one more thing, which

Crystal: it’s the family recipe. Okay. I promise. Last question, I promise. Yeah. Yeah. What do you feel is the best way that we personally can help save the rainforest?

Taita Fernando: Wow.

The best way is to create consciousness.

The consciousness which begin to create from ourselves. So we can begin to create this tune of,

there’s a lot of people that are taking care of the jungles.

But the same way, there’s a huge amount of people with power with money that are also destroying.

So we need first to create that consciousness and transmit that energy

And the other.

And to be able to reach out to these people of great power

and them to Drake medicine so they can create this consciousness.

Because nowadays the progress for these produce higher elites is having these huge concrete jungles,

but they don’t realize that without nature, we are nothing.

Without nature what nature shares with us, we just wouldn’t exist.

The, it’s so that battle of having power of having

that’s what we need to remove.

Nico: And so it’s creating this consciousness, this awareness of how we should be treating our jungles from our families, from our friends, and sharing this type of consciousness. So everybody,

Taita Fernando: and ask a lot, whether it’s the medicine or to the higher power to bad itself.

Nico: And ask for these type of elites, these individuals that are within this power to come to these spaces and to direct medicine.

Taita Fernando: Because nowadays it’s basically what you read or what in television or.

Nico: Your Marcus or, just your material things, your brands that you use, whatever Gucci,

Taita Fernando: that’s, that Fernando,

he just put in a message. Jose Fernando wants to heal nature. Some people just be like, okay. Crazy.

Nico: So the only way,

Taita Fernando: so

Nico: to do this, the where we start is building consciousness and awareness of this

Taita Fernando: because this is what we want, right? We wanna leave our children a better future. Yeah.

And for those that wanna destroy nature

Nico: doesn’t allow them to see that without nature, they are nothing.

Taita Fernando: For those that are awake and wants to save, nature

is very, because for us, I wanna change, but if we don’t, if we don’t exceed having power, having a lot of money. No, it’s very hard for us,

Nico: for those individuals. It’s much more easier for us to connect with nature and connect with this power. And,

Taita Fernando: and that’s why nowadays as well of very powerful things happening around the world with our nature.

Nico: Because in whatever form nature is talking.

Crystal: Yeah. Very loudly, I think.

Is there any final message that T would like to leave? That was

Taita Fernando: a

Crystal: pretty powerful one, but if there’s anything

Taita Fernando: I.

To give yourself this opportunity to know about this ancient tradition in medicine that can change our lives

in medicine where it doesn’t matter your religion or what you believe in

From religion is really what you’re feeling in our hearts.

Because in reality, the religion should be love. Nowadays. Your religion divides us, you nowadays, we scream for God or scream at God,

Nico: And behind our back, behind the backs,

Taita Fernando: we’re here talking bad about people. And yet we’re asking for the source to help us. That’s,

and so it’s very important to talk about what we feel,

talk, talk about how we feel, and not just talk empty words.

And for those that wanna come to the wire in the space.

All love. We’re here to share respect about love

Nico: and right here we’ll be waiting for you guys.

Sam Believ: I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you’d like to support us and psychedelic Renaissance at large, please follow us and leave us a like wherever it is you’re listening. Share this episode with someone who will benefit from this information. Nothing in this podcast is intended as medical advice, and it is for educational and entertainment purposes only.

This episode is sponsored by Lara Ayahuasca Retreat. At Laira, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity. Laira, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you.