In this episode of AyahuascaPodcast.com host Sam Believ has a conversation with Simon Tennant on the topics of psychotherapy and psychedelics, masculinity and femininity Ballance and role in a retreat, collective unconscious, archetypes in the group, what effect can psychedelics have in therapy world.

Find more about Simon at deepfeeling.nz

Simon’s YouTube channel @deep.feeling

Transcript

Sam Believ: You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast.com

in this episode of ayahuasca podcast.com. We talk to si Simon Tet. We touch upon subjects of. Ity and femininity during the retreat. The balance of that. We talk about collective unconscious. We talk about archetypes in the group, and Simon’s experience as a psychotherapist working with the victims.

What effect can psychedelics have on the therapy world and so much more. I’m sure you will enjoy this podcast. Hi guys. You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast.com as always with you host Sam Believe the founder of the podcast and of Lara Ayahuasca retreat. Today we’re joined by Simon. Simon has just spent 18 days here with us at Lara and had a very interesting experience.

Simon is a psychiatrist, psychotherapist. Psychotherapist. Yeah. He is a tango dancer. Horse rider. He’s so many things. He’s one of those the most interesting people you’ve ever met, kind of guy. I’m Simon, welcome to the podcast.

Simon Tennant: It’s a pleasure to be here. Thanks, Sam.

Sam Believ: First of all, Simon, tell us a little bit about yourself.

And how did you end up finding about Ayahuasca?

Simon Tennant: So I am someone that’s always been a seeker of knowledge and and always I think from a, an early age I saw my mother helping people and it’s just something I wanted to do. And so in my early twenties, I switched from it into health and it’s just been a.

A, an adult long journey with with working with health from, natural medicines and kinesiology to to counseling and psychotherapy. And I think when I was a homeopath, I realized that. The challenge that I had in, in, in my life and I saw in my client’s life was the relationship they had with themselves and with others.

And so that really made me wanna understand the psyche more. And so I went into psychotherapy and doing my training. There was this transpersonal psychospiritual psychology, so very much held transpersonal and spiritual realms and. In doing that, I started to read Stan’s or Stan’s work on the way the aut and that got me super interested in how psychedelic assisted therapies could really be an agent of transformative change in people’s lives.

And and I just, I’d never done psychedelics in my life. And then one day I just woke up and was like, I’ve gotta do ayahuasca. So I contacted you. We exchanged about three lines of of text through an email. And I was sold. I just had a real poll.

Sam Believ: I’m very short in my replies. But somehow it was enough.

Why did you decide to do it in Columbia

Simon Tennant: again? I’m not sure. I just came across your site and there was a price point of course. Which I really appreciated. ’cause coming from New Zealand, it’s a way to get here. There was just, there was something in the just the way you wrote the reply, it just felt, yeah.

I just let my intuition do the, do the choosing for me.

Sam Believ: Nice. I’m glad you came. Me too. So you said you were going to write a paper on change states of consciousness Yeah. Or get an education in that direction. Yeah. So

Simon Tennant: I’m looking at starting, phD master’s PhD program in September on it was in non-ordinary states of consciousness.

And what is it about these non-ordinary states, whether it’s through through tropic breath work or psychedelics or tantric work that is an agent for transformative change that these altered states or non-ordinary states, which we might even say are possibly normal states that we’ve just disconnected from.

Create this deep seated change that someone can come to Ayahuasca for a week and be like, it’s five years of therapy, or 10 years. And that just is always fascinated me.

Sam Believ: So after your own experience now with psychedelics, maybe there, did you learn something new? Are you more inspired about the topic or less?

Simon Tennant: I think my smile says it all. My time here, I at Lara has been. Exquisitely profound. It’s had beauty and pain and the secrets of the cosmos unveiled as well as deep connection with new people. I’ve met people here who’ve been in the ceremonies was for 18 days, and I feel more connected to them than maybe some people that have been in my life for 30 years.

The experience has been profound. It’s been humbling to have your ego dissolved in front of your eyes and be humbled and at the mercy of the medicine working through you and the music and just the caring of your staff, of your volunteers, of yourself, of t Fernando. It’s an incredibly full and life-changing experience.

Sam Believ: Yeah. Through the word circles that we shared, just for those who listening don’t get intimidated. 18 days doesn’t mean 18 ceremonies. It’s actually just 10 ceremonies. So we shared some time together. And I recall you describing couple experiences. I think it was one of the first day ceremonies that was very profound.

And I think I can recall one more, maybe another day. Ceremony day ceremony seems to be your favorite thing.

Simon Tennant: Wow. That’s

Sam Believ: okay. Can you pretend we’re in a war circle now and tell that story again if it, if you can still recall it.

Simon Tennant: Yeah. What I’m grateful for is that the both of those day ceremony experiences are incredibly vivid and still really alive.

And I’m still in the process of yesterday’s ceremony. If I can do my best to put what is experiential into words, my consciousness went from a particle experience of being in this body to being in moldable spaces at the same time and being super conscious to a lot of experience happening on.

So at one stage, I was inside. Tyler Fernando’s flute being breathed. I was also the inside of the drum being beaten at the same time, as well as like the networks of relationships that form the fabric of reality forming in front of me, being inside it, but also seeing it from a distance. At the same time, I almost felt like creation was using my body to experience and know itself more, more intimately.

It was incredibly profound, the hope that you can see in my eyes that the words are difficult for me to find because it was just. It was so huge and to then just have this profound clarity of different philosophical views of the ages, whether it was Buddhism or near Confucius or Daoism, come together in these synergistic spaces and see them from the inside and the outsiders as incredibly profound and life changing.

Yeah.

Sam Believ: Yeah. That’s the problem with psychedelic experiences. They are so profound that the words just don’t do justice no matter how eloquent you are. And trust me, this is one of the most eloquent people I’ve been in the presence of you would daily use words I’ve never heard before, which is a compliment to you and not to me.

But it’s words is not enough. What you described made me recall this, Mo a movie Lucy, where this this lady, she consumed some kind of blue thing and she goes from using 10% of her brain to using a hundred percent. I didn’t do that, and it’s I know this is not a correct thing apparently.

It’s not like we’re not using a hundred percent of our brain. We are. It is just not, but it does feel like your consciousness went to like super consciousness mode where you could be so much more conscious, meaning you could experience more at the same amount of time, which is fascinating. I don’t know, maybe you have a theory behind it.

Simon Tennant: Yeah I’m fascinated too because in the word circle. People were reflecting back to me that they felt me also in their experiences and their journeys. So that feel that field experience of consciousness when we go from body to the field. Allows our consciousness to be in these multiple states at one time.

But also no feeling inner peace and a solidness and centeredness is what I noticed. So it was, while it was a incredibly full experience, it was also incredibly peaceful. Look, there’s lots of different philosophies that would try to bring understanding to that. But one of the ways I look at it as fundamentally where networks of relationships, if we were to take a camera and go inside an electron, we wouldn’t video anything.

It’s like a condensation of energy that has spin. And and these as Fitro Capra would say in his book systems, view of Life, this network of relationships is like. This fundamental fabric of reality. And depending on your magnification it would be like a cartoonist scribbling.

And when you zoom back, he’s drawn a person’s face. But when you zoom right in there, these kind of scribbles, fractals you don’t see the face, intricacies of how that face is made up. I hope that. It brings some light to that. It’s a difficult difficult thing to express and put into words.

I’m still finding the words myself.

Sam Believ: You describe like interpersonal relationships and obviously. There is a group dynamic that happens during the retreat when it becomes obvious that we are pretty much connected and there is processes that sometimes are being experienced by several people at the same time.

You mentioned something about Carl Young and his what’s the. Unconscious.

Simon Tennant: Oh yeah. Unconscious process

Sam Believ: and No, like group unconscious or collective unconscious. Yeah. Yeah. So what have you observed about that? Or maybe you have some smart words about the topic.

Simon Tennant: I really like young.

I I loved the way in which he was a real a real avatar in, in searching new lands and. I think one of the things I said there is that when we don’t take up the invitation to journey into the underworld of our inner world, then all that’s unresolved in there. And it’s like a heroic journey to go into that underworld and that heroic journey is in so many of our different cultural motifs and myths from Greeks to Aztecs, to, to wherever you wanna look.

When we don’t take up that opportunity, that gets projected to the outer world and our outer world becomes an underworld. And then we live in the projections of others. Underworlds, and that’s what we live in today, is this underworld of unresolved trauma, of isolation, of fear and it’s incredibly restricting to people.

But in the group dynamic, what we notice is that in the shearing circles. When people allow themselves to be seen and they allow themselves to be vulnerable, and that’s held in a loving and kind space by by the team yourself and by the rest of us. We allow ourselves to be found in the world.

We allow that vulnerability that’s inherently there and something we, we’ve locked away for so long because it’s usually the place in which we got we got hurt in the first place when that’s allowed to be seen. That’s courage. And courage. To heart is to, courage us to stand in the face of difficulty with heart.

And that’s what happens in these word circles. And so this collective experience comes alive in which people are being seen and being felt. And there’s a group energy. And you would’ve felt that too, that really arises in that space where vulnerability is really present.

Sam Believ: Yeah the vulnerability is the secret missing ingredient I believe in our society today because it’s only one.

Both sides are vulnerable. The real connection can take place, and I think this is what the culture we try and create here at La Wire and also the medicine aids in that, that eventually the masks fall off. And two real people can then start to interact and have a beautiful. Healing journey together because people can heal people, but there needs to be a connection.

So you heal people, you work with people you work with sexual abuse victims. Yeah. If I’m not mistaken, as a psychotherapist would you bring them to

Simon Tennant: Ayahuasca? I actually have been. Philosophizing and doing some pondering on sexual trauma and how I feel like ayahuasca of any of the plant-based medicines I’ve had to look into, not that I’ve experienced.

I wanna make that very clear. I’ve only ever experienced ayahuasca is that sexual abuse is forced upon people. It’s forced in and onto the body and with force and with violence. And there is something about the embodied felt experience of ayahuasca. Like ayahuasca is not just a pretty colors and pretty pictures experience.

It’s a profoundly. Embodying felt experience. And I hope that you can feel what I’m saying by this, that it’s, for me, it was very embodied. And so because it’s embodied ayahuasca through its purgative experience, through, through vomiting or through ping through bottom evacuating has a lot of force in it.

I can speak to experience with that. That, that force almost matches the force that the trauma was taken to the body and the force of ayahuasca allows it to be forced outta the body. Trauma is stored, fragment in the body, and so no amount of just talking about it is gonna get out.

There’s a. There’s no free lunch with it, is what I like to see. It needs to be felt, and I feel that Ayahuasca provides a wonderful container and method for that trauma to come out. And because what you do here at the wider with the word circles, the community that’s here with Tyler Fernando, the music.

There’s a beautiful coming together of the feminine and the masculine. The feminine ayahuasca, the opening and the depth of the feminine. The nurturing, but also the holding. And then you’ve got this kind of gentle penetrative energy of the masculine coming in and almost infusing that in more with the music.

And I feel. That for sexual trauma is also incredibly important.

Sam Believ: Yeah. In our previous podcast you met Ashley, I did. She talks about her trauma with men and how here at this space, because she could see so many men being vulnerable and she could also feel being healed by men. It really helped her to overcome or at least progress with that trauma and feel better.

About men in general. A tricky question, as a psychotherapist and a lot of psychotherapists they spend years and years working with people. Trying to get some results. And sometimes it’s not really that effective. On the one side I can see some psychotherapists getting very excited about that they can finally speed up the process or finally see the, the visible change.

Get this dopamine boost here I am and here’s this person. Here’s him before and after. Kinda like we get here, it’s a really quick. Result. But I’m sure there are some that are questioning it and they think what if I, this is 10 years of a, money being made. What if I can do it in one week?

All of a sudden, like as a psychotherapist, are you worried that maybe. Psychedelics will steal your job.

Simon Tennant: Look, if I wanted to make money, I would’ve stayed in it. My job as a psychotherapist, and I hope I speak for a few of them out there, and I can imagine I’m, that it’s a, it’s more of a calling to be of service to provide a space where we can help those that are really struggling in the world, our brothers and sisters, and.

Yes. On a side note here what I love about Buddhism is they speak about everyone being a brother or sister, because in a past life, maybe they were. And what you feel here at Lewa through the process is that we are all brothers and sisters here. So getting back to the psychotherapy, if we can’t do all in our power.

To use this beautiful medicine or medicines to help open up these portals of healing, then we are not being psychotherapists. I think it’s incredibly, I feel deeply into my bones that it’s, so exciting. Ayahuasca, psilocybin, NDMA, these therapies to help unlock what takes years to do in therapy. Dick Schwartz, who’s the founder of, internal Family Systems talks about psychedelics being able to create a discourse between the exile traumatized part and the soul. It takes the managerial parts, the ego away, and you don’t have to look at people like Basal Vander Co. Dick Schwartz garble mate, world leaders in their fields, in psychology, really being huge advocates for psychedelic assisted psychotherapy.

So when leaders in the field. Talking about this too then we all need to be

Sam Believ: the names you just mentioned. They are on my dream list to interview for this podcast, if you’re listening, reach out g Mate. I’m a big fan. Me. So VanDerKolk as a body keeps the score. I recommend this book to any woman that ever mentions physical abuse.

Yeah. And men as well. And yeah, as they say, if you can’t beat them, join them. So if you are a psychotherapist listening to that, and you are maybe part of you worried about the future job scenario. Yeah, start learning about psychedelics because what I believe will happen, it’s you know when they invent a new technology, like a weaving machine, and all of a sudden.

You need less weavers, but you need more machine operators and then you make more money and make more sweaters. So it’s the same way. Right now. How, what’s the percentage of people do you think that are actually taking therapy?

Simon Tennant: That’s really hard. To say in New Zealand, I predominantly work with a CC claims.

So I know there’s about six months to a year wait to get into a a c registered therapist or counselor. We know that mental health difficulties are epidemic. We only need to look at the amount, especially in the states of how many are on SSRIs or antidepressants and psychotropic medication.

There’s not enough therapists to go around. There’s a shortage. The thing is that where I see psychotherapists being of real value in the psychic assisted therapies is the integration part. Like we have these profound transformative experiences and the music and the sham and the tighter, they hold that beautifully.

When you have these transcend, these really full. Full spaces. It’s like, how do we descend? How do we take the transcendent experience and descend it and ground it in the body? And that’s where. Psychotherapists, I feel could be of super helpers of that integration being really part of helping with the dreams analysis, with the imagery, with the feelings that are risen and how to make meaning of all that, and.

And, use it to create purpose and meaning and values in, in one’s life. So I feel like we’ve got a super important job. It’s just, it changes, but we are not the primary agent of the change. And in the relationships, like in psychotherapy, the relationship, the US being able to feel into.

If you are a client of mine, me sitting in your sand particles and them landing on my body and feeling into, what does it feel like to feel under Sam? And notice what comes arise in me and be alive to the unconscious process. Psychedelics just allows us to do that a lot quicker.

A lot quicker. But the relational component’s still important, but we are also getting that in the group component, but with the intimacy of psychotherapy we can just enhance the process. That’s how I see it.

Sam Believ: Yeah, I totally agree with you. I’m completely not against psychotherapy. I think it’s an awesome tool and I believe if, let’s say psychotherapy is like digging a trench, then adding ayahuasca to it, it’s like you just got yourself an excavator.

So it’s but you still need somebody to do the work. And it’s we try our best to help people integrate, but I’m not a professional. In, in, in this field. Some of our volunteers know more about that. So we have created a vessel, an egg container. I’m looking forward to you coming in, joining us as an integration coach.

Simon Tennant: I would love that. Maybe

Sam Believ: in the future ’cause that’s how my plant of one person in the team like that. But if you are doing psychotherapy I like my analogies. I live in analogies, so the way I see. Mental work or inner work is digging a tunnel psychotherapy is like having a a pick X.

Yep. And you go at it and you slowly going in and you’re doing the progress, but it’s very slow. But it’s organized because you can make a very organized tunnel. Yeah. Psychedelics is like dynamite. So if you put some dynamite, your progress will be so much quicker. But you, the integration is taking the rubble and cleaning it out, because if you just keep blowing a piece of dynamite after another, it’s just mess.

Simon Tennant: It’s just dust.

Sam Believ: Yeah. So I believe this is, there’s this beautiful balance that will be established eventually. Were not only psychotherapists and psychologists and psychiatrists will be able to. Do their work better, but because people will get results quicker, then it will spread more. So the reason I ask you about how many people you think have done therapy is because I assume it’s a very small amount.

It is a very small amount. Maybe five to 10% of population, if we’re lucky,

Simon Tennant: I would say those would be really overestimates. Yeah. So yeah, probably 5%.

Sam Believ: So let’s say hypothetically it’s 5%. But how many people need it? We know 30% of people in the west are on some medications, which means at least 30. But if we’re really honest and we don’t talk about pat pathologies and like really bad cases, and we talk about just general wellbeing, maybe more than half of people.

If not everyone would need it, at least some kind of realignment. So if the psychedelics would come into that space, make the professionals more effective, then I believe what would happen is then their friends would be like, yeah, I’ll give it a try. Because it’s no longer committing for 10 years of therapy.

Of, with little result to now being, it’s gonna be one month and I know that I’ll be just like my friend. I’ll be so much happier. So I’m very excited about. Bringing more psychotherapists in the field and hopefully even having some of them join our team. We do have a counselor on a team. He does remote integration coaching.

Yeah. And it, it helps a lot of people who want to go deeper. And, but if we could have somebody in the presence, just like I noticed you did a little session there. Yeah. Nobody asked you to, but it’s great because obviously it comes up naturally. So yeah. I’m excited about the emergence of these two fields.

As soon as we can let go of those, how would you say constructs? Constructs and also fears because the thing that I mentioned about therapist it’s, I’m sure it comes to mind and some people are like, I’m not sure about it because like, when self-interest is involved, it’s a little, it’s a little tricky and it’s,

Simon Tennant: I think there’s self-interest things that.

Something that comes up for nails in our sharing circles and through my own journey. In Buddhism, they say we don’t have a depend, an independent self that doesn’t exist, that the arising of us being as dependent on causative factors and cau and. So when we exist in these communities and our existence is dependent upon others and upon nature, then our context expands.

Nature said it best when he said, the death of God would have profound impact on 20th century humans as they. They move their meaning, making context from a spiritual to a personal. And that’s what we have today. We have people experiencing so massive amounts of loneliness.

They may be in a room full of people with their family and they still feel super alone. They start to, it gives rise. This free floating anxiety around. You know what’s wrong with me? They may check, they may challenge their own identity, their sexuality, all sorts of things. Is this confusion and maybe what’s speaking to there is the disconnection.

And the existential loneliness is there the connection to something larger than yourself. And it’s paradoxical ’cause we see those connections to something larger than ourselves and war veterans that have been a part of a platoon and they would die for their brothers. We see it in Buddhists that get the joy and the suffering of being there and helping the suffering of others.

And so something like Ayahuasca also brings in those other. Transpersonal context of finding your place in the cosmos, finding your place with people and having something that’s greater than yourself. And I, I feel that’s a super important part of this process here.

Sam Believ: Yeah. I’m very passionate about this topic of like loneliness because I think that.

It’s a big problem right now. And what we do here, we try and address both connection to the group and also connection to the higher Yeah. Whatever it is for you. And basically this is why people are. So full and so connected when they leave here because they felt what they haven’t felt for a long time, but to, to a larger extent in the future, as and some listeners might have already heard about it, our plan is to create a community.

And maybe even several, but the idea is you can come and how therapeutic is just a night by the fire with the hot drink. And good deep conversation, like ayahuasca aside,

Simon Tennant: oh my, again, my smile. It’s enlivening, it’s enriching, its soul food. And every night here has been that the journeying on ayahuasca has been profound and as profound has been the rich connections and the sharing and.

Everyone’s trying to find their sga, their community, that space in which they feel seen and heard. They feel valued and celebrated. And here what’s happening is not just a celebration of people, but a celebration of life, of realizing that our space and humanity at the moment is facing difficulty where there’s isolation, disconnection, dissociation, and these spaces here, what you’re creating here, these seeds of healing and of.

Celebration of life unfolding in each moment is beautiful and healing and rich and just, I think I used the word stupidious stupidly delicious. And it’s just been such a privilege to come here.

Sam Believ: That’s a good word. That’s a good word. Stupidious regarding the group work. Yeah. I know you’re a fan of young and so you, you might know something about the archetypes.

I have noticed that in the past, our groups were smaller 10 to 15 people in the very beginning, and I noticed that when we went to 2025. Group size. The word circles and the lessons from the word circles became richer, so it almost felt like it was enhanced, which surprised me because a lot of people were worried about larger groups because they thought it’s gonna be.

Yeah. Less connection because there’s more people and it wa it went the opposite way. Do you think there is something about those the, like having certain amount of certain archetypes or what do you think about that phenomena?

Simon Tennant: Yeah, I. What comes to mind for me there is intimacy. And to me, see, we can have intimacy one-on-one on small groups or in our group, 24 people.

So the intimacy is like, how willing am I to see into other, and how willing am I allowed for. How willing am I to allow them to see into me? So when you’ve got a bigger group here, we don’t wanna say too huge a group, but you go for from 15 to 20 or 24, you’ve got more people seeing into you. You’re being seen more.

So the vulnerabilities more, we do have these archetypes, whether it’s the warrior or the wounded healer. And a lot of people that would come here would possibly be wounded healers just like us psychotherapists. Wounded healers. I think all these archetypes, they emerging groups an archetype, a good way to look at that is like a patterning function.

They. They pattern the space, they, create a way of things to form. And when you’ve got more archetypes in a space, then you’ve got more inclusion. You’ve got the capacity and, let me find the word here. You’ve got the potential for greater emergence ’cause you’ve got more included in it.

So I think that can reach a critical space if it’s not held well enough. It doesn’t surprise me that going from 15 to 24 is yielding better results, more richness.

Sam Believ: Yeah. It almost feels as if there’s, more people to mirror other people’s experience.

Simon Tennant: Yeah.

Sam Believ: Because maybe they are of a similar archetype.

And then you learn through others sometimes better than you do through yourself.

Simon Tennant: That just speaks to something. In one of the ceremonies, there was someone that, for me, in some of their expressions, wasn’t feeling. So like I didn’t feel integrity and that, and so I could have got pissed off and annoyed at that, but I used that as a mirror.

So what’s my relationship with my own integrity and what spaces in my own life Am I not standing in integrity, even if it’s in small places? And so that person was a beautiful mirror to me. To to shine light into the unknown spaces in my psyche. And if we can look at everyone as our brother and sister holding a mirror to us in these group situations, then we have just far more information, more understanding and more knowing of our, in our process if we take the time to do no,

Sam Believ: definitely, and it happened to me as well this week. There was one person that was causing negative emotion and I did the same thing. I was like, why am I reacting to this? Yeah. Where am I doing something similar? And there is, if that happens to you on a day-to-day life, if you find that some person is really triggering you and really causes a negative emotion, look into.

What is that they’re doing that you might be doing? And it will sometimes lead to a revelation. I, before starting to work at at this field of psychedelics, when I was doing my soul searching and switching from engineering, I did a life coaching course. And I did it thoroughly, actually, I did part of it in this hammock right behind us.

It was years ago. Wow. I have, then tried to implement that on some friends of mine. And there was a friend of mine that I practiced a coaching session with him and I was looking for a breakthrough. And he said he was really annoyed when people were spending too much time on their phones.

And we were trying to understand why. And in the end it was about himself. He was not it was about attention and, basically I, I asked him like, why are you annoyed by people spending so much time in the farm because like they could have been doing something better. With their lives.

And then he realized that he does a lot of things that take his attention from things he actually would be better use of his time. And it was a breakthrough. So I was really proud of it. And on that my life coaching journey ended and I never tried it again, but some of it is useful today, still in in my.

Newly found line of work.

Simon Tennant: That’s one of the great things about being here at laa. The nature, the peace and the people being away from my phone. I’ve turned it on once to, during, the halfway break just to check in, tell my family and my friends and my loved ones back home.

The people that matter to me. To cancel

Sam Believ: to cancel the search party.

Simon Tennant: To cancel the search party. I just wanna say, actually everyone matters to me. That I’m still alive, but the. Being able to disconnect from that concrete jungle and the ways in which we doom scroll. They say if you doom scroll, you’ll, you scroll until you’re doomed.

To be away from all of that, those distractions, and just be here in the beauty to be like what Blaze Pascal says, the, and excuse the engendered language, the root of all man’s miseries is his inability to sit quietly alone in an empty room. Just to be able to sit here. With people and find the beauty and the peace and the simple and the subtle hear the subtle winds that blow see the richness of the greenery through through the lenses of other people too.

It’s, it is beautiful and that in itself is just healing.

Sam Believ: I have some notes here of what you said in one of the word circle. What is transference? Counter transference and reenactments.

Simon Tennant: Yeah. So clinically transference and countertransference. Transference is when unconscious process, say, for example, and the client may be, for example, the therapist might, remind unconsciously the client of their mother or their father, that client might then start to act in ways that are similar. In the ways in which they’d act with their parents. That’s then projected onto the therapist and the therapist in their own counter transference can do a couple of things.

They can give the client the same experience that the parents gave them, which is not cool. Just reinforces possibly the dysfunction was there. Or they can give a reparative experience. They can maybe if it’s the anger. That’s being transferred. All the pain. The therapist can hold that and and give them a reparative experience like where before if anger came out and they were shut down, therapists can hold that anger and say, your anger’s welcome here, and they can have a new experience that dear, their feelings are valid, that their feelings are welcome and they’re allowed to feel.

Most of us in the west, especially us men, we’re taught to, take a concrete pill and harden the fuck up, that’s what we’re taught. And not to connect with the richness of the feelings of our inner world. So counter transference and counter transference can be a real space in which we hold.

The new experiences or reinforce the old ones if we’re not alive to it. Like I know sometimes in sessions if I’m feeling irritated by a client and I’m going, God, part of me wants to slap this client across the face and just say, wake up, I’m going, oh, if I catch myself, then I can go, ah, what?

What are the particles that are landing on me trying to communicate to me, and I can then hold that space differently and going, oh, maybe this client’s kind of, communicating to me that that this is how it’s like to be them in the world. This is what might be like for other people around.

This might be the experience that they feel a lot like that people are irritated by them. And we can give them a new experience that. That’s reparative.

Sam Believ: It’s very valuable ’cause it happens to me a lot as well, just because I am this my role here, obviously as a leader, a masculine figure. Sometimes women project their trauma with men on me.

And it’s strange for me. I don’t know how to react a lot of times because I’m like, I’ve never really hurt a woman in my life before. But that prototype that they have of a sort of masculine figure might be a pretty bad one. So I generally I need to learn how to invite their walk, their anger, and maybe.

Have some language around dad.

Simon Tennant: Maybe there’s some ways you’re already doing that through your music when they’ve projected that on you and then you open with your beautiful voice and your music and they can see the softness, the kindness, the love that this man is holding, even though unconsciously they’ve been projecting.

This this fear really what it is, this fear and hurt upon you that in some ways you may already be doing that, but to be alive and we get alive to that process by being in our body. And if we’re noticing that other, that irritation or or even a desire to be close to. In both ways.

It’s just really valuable information around what’s this person trying to tell me in between their words. What’s the the unnamed known that’s known unconsciously, but hasn’t been named. Yeah.

Sam Believ: Yeah, this line of work is difficult working with hurt people. Because sometimes hurt people try to hurt people and sometimes you’re in a line of attack, but definitely ayahuasca makes it easier.

Because you, you see the change in people and a lot of times the change is fast enough, so by the end of the retreat they realize what I’ve done and they actually can ask you for forgiveness. I believe in therapy might take a little longer.

Simon Tennant: Oh, what you said yesterday in our closing circle and this is something I really want to iterate and I love what you said was that there aren’t bad people.

There are, they’re hurt, they’re confused. There are suffering people that behave poorly and hurt others, but there aren’t. Bad people. And I think it’s really important for us to hold that when someone pulls up, in front of us in traffic and we wanna go, fuck you, get outta my way.

That, oh, this person in their own confusion, in their own pain is acting in a way that, is causing it to others, but it’s unconscious in a lot of ways. It allows us to be more compassionate.

Sam Believ: I’m able to do it, but really rarely. But when I can, then it feels extremely empowering.

You all of a sudden you’re like it’s almost ego driven. Look at me, look at how conscious I am. But in a way it is a, it is the only correct reaction ’cause reacting to anger with anger is not gonna help us putting more oil into the fire.

Simon Tennant: There’s a beauty in the flaws of being human.

I notice times when I screw up with my clients with my daughter, with my parents, with my friends and my partners, it also gives us the opportunity to reflect and how can we be kind and more compassionate? We can always open our minds wider and deepen our hearts, deepen, deeper.

And that’s something that, already stand by. It’s feels like a life purpose, that there’s no end to that. And that’s the beautiful thing about being alive, like what you’re doing here. There’s no end. To what you’re creating here, the lives that you can touch and heal.

Sam Believ: Yeah. Thank you Simon. So you. You sound like a media persona, but I don’t think you are one. Do you have any YouTube channels or,

Simon Tennant: I’ve got one that’s just starting. It’s called deep Feeling and that’s gonna be being populated. I was starting to do that, but when I got the call to do Ayahuasca, I was like, actually, I’m just gonna hold off for that.

’cause I feel there’s gonna be. Some profound stuff there. Which there has been. So it’s gonna changed a few of my views on certain thinkings. So there will, there’s gonna be a website and YouTube channel just where I sit down and talk with people. And I’m really passionate about feelings and helping, especially men.

People really connect with feelings ’cause feelings aren’t thoughts. They’re felt in the body and. In the west we rush to make the meaning, bring the words to it, as opposed to being with the wave, the physicality of feelings the sensations, the motor response, even the imaginal, like when you’re angry, there might be the enlivening energy in the body that comes up.

The felt experience. And there might be the motor response I wanna go and hit something or punch a wall. Not that’s usually a great idea. Then there might be the imaginal space, feeling like a volcano. We often bypass all that. So I really wanna help people to connect with feelings more and also find their inner home.

That space that people were speaking about when they were sharing, that they found love for themselves for the first time. And maybe what they’re speaking to is they found love to something greater than themselves as well. So that’s the kind of space that I’m wanting to become more alive to and talk about more through, through YouTube channel and the website.

Sam Believ: Let’s assume the, by the time listeners listen to that, the website is up and the channels up. What are the channel is deep feelings,

Simon Tennant: Deep dot feeling. That’s just the YouTube channel. And, and then deep feeling nz. Is the, is gonna be the website. Yeah. Okay.

Sam Believ: We’ll try and add that to the show notes as well.

So Simon, it was amazing speaking to you. Very fascinating. I’m extremely proud of you and anyone who does an 18 day retreats because it, it is a hard, it is a hard work. Lots of it is beautiful, but don’t don’t be, confused. It. It is, it does require a lot of work. Just like all good things in life.

So Simon, thank you so much for the conversation, the lessons. I’m sure people will enjoy it a lot.

Simon Tennant: Thank you, Sam. I just wanna hand on heart here and just say my profound gratitude for what you’ve created here the people that you’ve got involved, the vision and just the beautiful healing space that’s been here 18 days is no walk in the park.

It is not full of rainbows, unicorns sometimes, but it’s also filled with depth and breadth and width. So I’m super grateful and this has changed. One of my friends who’s I’m very close to, she said, I look really forward to seeing what rearrangement of atoms Simon comes back as. And so the arra arrangement that’s happened here is not just happening in this lifetime, but the lifetimes to come.

So thank you.

Sam Believ: Thank you Simon. Guys. You have been listening to ayahuasca podcast.com as always, your host, Sam Believe, and we’ve been joined today by Simon. What’s your surname

Simon Tennant: tenant?

Sam Believ: Simon Te. Please give a like to this podcast on whatever podcasting plot platform you’re listening to this and follow us or subscribe to us.

On that same platform as well, leave us a review. It really helps us. The world deserves to know about ayahuasca, about plant medicines, about conscious use of plant medicines, and the psychedelic renaissance that’s happening. Thank you for listening.

In this episode of AyahuascaPodcast.com host Sam Believ has a conversation with Tracey Tee founder of mother’s on mushrooms.

We touch upon subjects of microdosing for mother’s, postpartum depression, quitting antidepressants using microdosing and more.

Find more about Tracey and her project at http://www.momsonmushrooms.com

Or at the Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/momsonmushroomsofficial

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:01.424)

Hi guys and welcome to ayahuascapodcast .com. As always with you the host, Sam Belyev. Today we’re gonna have a guest, Tracy T. Tracy is from Cheese of Honor of Mums and Mushrooms, where she talks about everything regarding microdosing for moms and so much more. I’m very excited for this episode. Tracy, welcome.

Tracey Tee (00:24.9)

Thank you, thank you for having me.

Sam Believ (00:27.988)

Tracy, tell us a little bit about yourself and what made you work with microdosing with mushrooms and specifically with mums.

Tracey Tee (00:38.076)

Thank you. Yeah. Well, I am a mom. I have a 13 year old daughter. I live in Denver, Colorado. I’ve been married for almost 22 years. And I am a late in life psychonaut. I came to Mushrooms in my mid 40s after losing a business that actually was also working with moms actually had a live comedy show that

was a comedy show for mothers about laughing about all the things we have in common as moms. So I’ve been in the mom world ever since I’ve been a mom, actually, professionally. And when I started working with this medicine to not only heal some grief, but continue my own spiritual journey, what became abundantly clear was that I believe this medicine has presented itself on the planet in this time in history. Not.

not specifically for moms, but for moms for sure, because it’s such a gentle heart opening reconnector. And I believe that the mental health of mothers, especially modern Western mothers is in a place where it’s not sustainable. We are in a critical period and moms are deeply unhappy, deeply over -medicated, deeply depressed.

and we’re raising children and we are at a critical point of how we take care of the generations that we’re raising. And I think this medicine is here to help. So for me, microdosing felt like the perfect step to bring moms back together and to reinstall that sense of community that I think our modern Western culture is really missing. Mushrooms require that of the people.

It is a web. It wants to be taken and worked with in community. And I also believe that microdosing specifically for moms, especially in the West, in the US where I’m living, we don’t have a culture that has any sense of appreciation for ceremony or sacredness.

Tracey Tee (02:52.22)

and any kind of connection, continuous connection to nature that’s not like a novel, oh, look at me, I’m gonna take a picture of myself out in the forest type thing, but a true connection to ceremony and what it means to actually, sacredly heal. So I believe that microdosing first allows a mother to understand what entheogenic medicine feels like in her body and create a relationship for it because what my concern is,

is as this psychedelic renaissance continues to grow, the enthusiasm makes people go out and seek out the largest, biggest, strongest, most expansive journey they can find, and that can actually be incredibly destabilizing. So this is a way to gently introduce the medicine to mothers so that you can go and pursue a large dose journey and feel safe and empowered and actually have a relationship with the medicine. And that’s what Moms on Mushrooms is about.

Sam Believ (03:51.184)

It’s beautiful. I’m really identifying with many things you say, you know, the fact that you work with mothers and humor. I think we’re too serious these days and the healing will come from playfulness. And you probably know mushrooms, mushrooms do that a lot. And, you know, serving moms as well, it’s a very sort of unserved population. And I love you being on that quest about spreading information because, yeah, the world deserves to know that.

It’s a medicine and that psychedelics can be extremely helpful. I want to tell you about my personal story and why I was so compelled to interview. So I have a wife, we started Lawyra together, which is an ayahuasca retreat. And of course, when you… We have two kids and she’s pregnant again now with the third one. So I completely agree with your task. And when, after our second son was born…

She was acting very strange. She was being negative about lots of things. And I asked myself, you know, everything she talks about, it’s actually pretty good. The situation was pretty good. So I didn’t understand why she was negative. So of course, because I already worked in this field a little bit, I thought, okay, maybe she’s depressed. And then I remembered about listening to podcasts, I believe as well, something about postpartum depression.

Tracey Tee (05:00.036)

Hmm.

Sam Believ (05:15.216)

And it all came together. So I went to the freezer where I had some mushrooms. I took a microdose and I gave it to her and she accepted it obviously because we work in this field. And about a few weeks later, she started to feel better and it was pretty clear. Of course, as you say in your content, post -depression doesn’t just go away immediately, but it really eased her pain and it got much better. So, you know,

Talk to us a little bit about why microdosing is so perfect for moms specifically and maybe if you know tell us a little bit about postpartum depression.

Tracey Tee (05:53.628)

Sure, you know, microdosing, well, first of all, okay, if we reframe, all right, how do we start with this? If we look at a mother in distress or a mother who is depressed or a mother who is in need of help, okay, mental health help, however that looks, our traditional models are, you know, traditional psychology, which is go into an office, sit down, talk about the thing,

maybe talk about it some more. And then eventually, truly, the common thing is, well, you’re unhappy or you’re sad. So we’re going to make you unsad or less sad with this pill. And what happens is that nothing is actually healed. Nothing is cleared out from the body or from the heart. And the mom is put inside a loop where she is in both ways. If she’s going to therapy, oftentimes,

re -traumatizing herself by talking over and over about the thing that’s bothering her with no resolve. And then at the same time is having a numbed out experience where she’s not actually connected to her deep emotions and isn’t, her body isn’t chemically allowing her emotions to come to the surface to release the trauma of which she speaks. So that is a very, very generalization of like the mental health of mothers and how

moms traditionally go in and seek out mental health help. Microdosing is the exact opposite. Microdosing is a real like punch in the throat frankly of medicine that comes, that brings all of your feelings up to the surface. And I believe it connects your heart and your mind and your body so that all three things are speaking to each other and hearing each other, which means when you’re…

which I believe that microdosing, it helps you feel and become more embodied. So you’re feeling aches and pains and fatigue and overwhelm in your body more acutely. And your brain is finally hearing your body tell your brain, you need to slow down, you’re not okay. This is something that needs to be addressed. And at the same time, microdosing allows those feelings to come up or those problems. And you stared at it, it stares at you.

Tracey Tee (08:19.932)

and you recognize it and you acknowledge it for what it is. And then I believe that the medicine can just sort of like, from that acknowledgement point, sort of like turns into butterflies and flies away and it doesn’t go back down inside you. And so it’s a very gentle way to actually fully, holistically heal something that is bothering a mother. On top of that,

Large dose journeys are amazing, as you well know, and ayahuasca is amazing, but moms don’t necessarily have the time it takes to devote to a truly integrated, purposeful preparation period and then going into doing a large dose journey. And then a lot of times moms don’t have the time to integrate afterwards. Our healing is done in between school and making snacks and wiping butts.

and giving baths and driving to doctor’s appointments, we don’t have long spans of hours in a day or over a weekend to devote to ourselves. And I’m not saying that sarcastically, I wish we did. But when you take on the role of a parent, that is your number one priority is raising tiny humans. So weaving in psychedelic medicine is absolutely possible, but it just takes a different approach than what is traditionally presented out in the psychedelic space.

And microdosing is just a gentler, slower, smaller way to heal incrementally in a timeframe that actually works for a mother because you’re not high. And you can do those things. You can heal on the car ride back from school. You have some space there and the medicine is working with you. So that’s really why I think this is so important and potent for mothers. In terms of postpartum, there’s actually…

so little research, actual research done about postpartum depression, what is triggering it and what actually will help it. What we’ve done is we’ve just taken a medication model, which is she looks like she’s in happier and distress. So we’re just going to give her an antidepressant and there’s no exit strategy and there’s no actual support that comes in and holds the mother where she’s at. I mean, your story about seeing your wife feeling concerned.

Tracey Tee (10:38.272)

offering some medicine and saying like, I know that something’s wrong and as you know, holding her to help is the right way. And sometimes we just need that community to come around a mom who whose body and hormones are in massively rewiring, you know, patterns and hold space for her, nourish her, give her food, give her rest, give her the help she needs. And then let’s take a look at like her hormones.

and her deeper mental health. And I think that microdosing can really help support that because it’s not going to interfere with anything else. And it’s going to allow her to feel her grief and her pain if she’s experiencing that postpartum while releasing it so that it doesn’t stick with her for years to come.

Sam Believ (11:27.024)

That’s a great explanation. I think you spoke about it on the other interview you did, but can you tell us about why moms, especially soon after birth, why is it such a priority for them to feel good?

Tracey Tee (11:45.788)

I just think that that is programming that we’ve accepted over many generations. I think culturally, there is little tolerance for a woman who is hysterical, right? Hysteria, we used to, that’s what, you know, menses used to be called, you know, your hysterical period. And traditionally in a patriarchal society, we don’t like women who are sad.

We don’t like women who are angry. We don’t like women who are depressed, who are grieving. And there has been this just expectation of when a woman has a baby that she has about six weeks to bounce back and fix everything. And that’s like your grace period. But even then, you know, a lot of women go back to work even before that time, or you’ve got other kids at home that you’re raising.

And you’re just expected to get over this monumental thing that you just went through and carry on as if nothing happened. And the truth is, again, going back to just research and understanding female physiology, we don’t really even address the massive physical changes that happen to a woman when she gives birth. And we definitely don’t, from an allopathic way, say, okay, here’s your course back to care after you had a baby.

We’re gonna monitor your hormones. We’re gonna monitor your blood sugar levels. We’re gonna monitor your adrenals and we’re gonna give you supplements and we’re gonna give you the support and nutritional aspect you need so that you’re rebalanced. None of that happens and it just leads to hysterical women. And we just don’t have a society right now that concerns itself over an unhappy mother.

Sam Believ (13:38.896)

Yeah, hopefully that improves. And especially when the baby is just born, if a mother is depressed, then the baby will have attachment issues. And then it keeps going, let’s say, if a baby is a girl, then it keeps going for a generation. It just keeps accumulating. And we need something to sort of break that pattern. Tracy, why did you choose mushrooms specifically for helping mothers?

Tracey Tee (14:05.532)

Well, I would just say mushrooms chose me. I didn’t really have much say in the matter, honestly, as I look back on the path of my life. Mushrooms just came into play. It’s something I’ve always loved. I’ve always loved plants and have studied herbology and herbal medicine for years, decades. And mushrooms would always come up and I’ve always been fascinated by the healing, like.

powers of magic mushrooms. But again, as a mom, I just was like, well, none of that is for me. And actually, to be perfectly honest, I was mostly interested in ayahuasca when I started to research psychedelic medicine. And then for some reason, the mushrooms just came in hot and just sort of showed up in my front door one day. And the minute I worked with mushrooms for the first time, it’s like a grand knowing, just a light

bulb went on inside my soul and I just knew, I just knew that they were my master teacher. I always joke, it was one journey kind of early on, I was with my mentor and I was on the floor of course, like weeping and I looked up at her and I said, I think I’m just put on this earth to eat mushrooms. And that’s just kind of how I feel. I just think they’re just, they were just presented as my master plan teacher.

Sam Believ (15:26.96)

Yeah, I really identify with that because people ask me like, how did you end up doing this? And I was like, well, all I did was the work direction was set by something else. And just as, as in your journey, just synchronicities happen and you get guided. So I think I do believe that certain people have are put on this path because the world kind of needs it. And so, so you mentioned that you were, I mean, I’m a

I’m a big fan of mushrooms in ayahuasca as well. But obviously we ended up working with ayahuasca also for legal reasons because in Colombia ayahuasca is legal and mushrooms are sort of in a gray zone. But both medicines are very beautiful. And I believe that combining two, not together in the same ceremony, but let’s say in between your ayahuasca retreats, because it’s hard to go and do that, mushrooms can reconnect you to that state. And it’s a beautiful combination. You know, it’s like a…

Ayahuasca is a grandmother, mushrooms are grandchildren, and it’s a family in the end of the day. So you said you felt calling for ayahuasca first, and then obviously it’s difficult for a mother to get out of life and dedicate long time for ayahuasca. So did you end up doing ayahuasca in the future or not?

Tracey Tee (16:48.412)

No, I haven’t done it yet. I think one thing that I’ve learned is I, and I always say that I’m raised by medicine women and this path. My path is very much the slow medicine woman way. So those are my mentors. And even though I’m a type A triple Aries manifesting generator who likes to get stuff done really fast, I know that my teacher for ayahuasca will present.

itself themselves when it in the time will open itself up. And I wanted to speak to that, especially for ayahuasca, because I, you know, I’ve obviously have hundreds of conversations with women who have done it who want to do it. But I also and it is a little bit more of a time constraint for for people and for mothers. But I think as this as this space grows, and as we raise awareness around

using entheogenic medicines for healing, my prayer is that as a culture, we start to make room for each other to go and do these things without judgment and with support. So that when a girlfriend says or a wife says to her husband, I’m feeling called to do ayahuasca, the husband knows because this is the shift in our culture.

Yes. All right. Let’s make this happen for you and not, oh my God, you know, and it’s so much money and it’s this and it’s that, but like, you feel it. This is important to you. It’s important for me. Let’s do it. And I really hope that that changes over time. But yeah, as far as the relationship between mushrooms and ayahuasca, you’re right. And also, I don’t think we talk a lot about in the space that I really believe that microdosing is such a beautiful way to integrate after a large dose journey.

So you have that ayahuasca experience and then you can come home and you can microdose with the mushrooms and stay with the grandmother and really learn and integrate those lessons, I think a lot easier and more gently with the help of a low dose of another medicine.

Sam Believ (18:49.744)

Definitely. Ayahuasca and mushrooms is a match made in heaven. Yeah. And I love what you say about the cultural shift because my personal dream is and partially why I’m doing this podcast right now is to go from a point of what is Ayahuasca to the point of to the conversation starter where when’s the last time you did Ayahuasca and hopefully, hopefully we get there. And what you talk about stigma is definitely true. You know, when you, if people think that

Tracey Tee (19:10.18)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (19:19.224)

ayahuasca or mushrooms is a schedule one drug and then obviously a mother doing ayahuasca or mushrooms is very stigmatized. We definitely need to change that. You know what Tracy, you know how synchronicities happen and you get calling for ayahuasca. I consider sometimes myself to be the messenger for that call so I would like to use that.

chance to extend an invitation for you to come to the retreat, totally free of charge. So when you’re ready, and maybe we’ll do next episode in person and after you finally do your ayahuasca experience. So, and I definitely, because I am a father myself and my, my, my, my wife, she, she works with ayahuasca. Obviously there are certain.

Tracey Tee (19:57.956)

Mmm.

Sam Believ (20:07.216)

traditional ceremony rules and how and when and which month and stuff like that. But I do, we do welcome mothers when they want to come with children. Obviously the problem is who’s going to take care of the child. So in that case, what we normally do, we ask a couple to come together and bring a kid with them. Then they, they have a private accommodation and what they do is one day the husband drinks, another day the wife drinks and in between they take care of the child together. This

This seems to be working. I think it’s a good solution for those who do want to try ayahuasca. So Tracy, I know for example in a tradition here in Colombia with ayahuasca, women are allowed to drink on certain months of pregnancy. It also comes with postpartum. What about mushrooms? When is it safe to take mushrooms in the microdose form? Can…

Tracey Tee (20:43.066)

Hmm.

Sam Believ (21:04.206)

Pregnant women take mushrooms, can women that are breastfeeding take mushrooms? What is your take on that?

Tracey Tee (21:12.188)

Well, obviously the jury is out from a scientific standpoint. There is not enough research. I don’t have a take because I’m not a doctor, but I will say that in terms of toxicity, and this is what I’ve spoken to with scientists, is if you are taking an SSRI while you’re pregnant and they’re not concerned about it crossing the blood -brain barrier, you can assume that psilocybin,

will act in a similar manner. And so that is a really very basic but simple analogy that makes sense to me. I also believe that if you are in distress and you are having a hard time with your pregnancy and it is actually compromising how you are growing that baby and showing up as a mother with the baby in your belly, then, and if mushrooms feel like the answer, I think that…

a woman, a mother’s intuition, if you’re actually listening to it, may not be wrong. And then I look back at traditional cultures, like you’re saying. I look back at what the original peoples have done for centuries around pregnancy and especially postpartum and breastfeeding. And I look at the stories of the medicine women who have done it and how their children and even grandchildren have turned out.

and how wonderful and almost magical they are. So I kind of just take an agnostic view and I don’t take an agnostic view. I take a intuition view. I think that answer is between you and God. And I think that if it feels like the right thing, I think you probably are called to do it.

Sam Believ (22:58.382)

Mm -hmm. Tracy, I can imagine you work with hundreds if not thousands of mothers. For the mothers that might be listening to this episode, what kind of results can they expect to get? What are success stories you maybe want to share?

Tracey Tee (23:17.07)

Yeah, thank you. And I also just want to say to that point, a friend of mine, Michaela De La Maico, has almost dedicated her life to this discussion of mushrooms and motherhood in utero and in breastfeeding. And she’s a great resource. She’s working on a project called Mothers of the Mushroom, and she’s written papers about it and has a beautiful community. And I encourage anyone listening to this to look up. I think her handle is Mama De La Maico.

on Instagram and she’s a great resource. So I always also defer to her. But for me, the women who come to us and we really kind of specialize in women postpartum and we’ve had women go through our courses as early as four weeks postpartum and breastfeeding. So it’s very common in our community. I think the number one thing that women come to Moms on Mushrooms for is to get off one if not several medications.

They feel like they’re on a treadmill of antidepressants, ADHD medication, sleep medications, and they don’t know how to get off that treadmill. And so their soul is seeking a simpler, gentler way. The second thing that women usually come to us is just simple presence. They have a desire to be present with their children. I think collectively we’re feeling the overwhelm of this technological culture.

of being connected to our phones, our computers, and the distractions that are happening. Our attention spans are shortening, which makes it actually physically and mentally more difficult to hang out with a two -year -old because we’re so used to being distracted and moving on to the next thing. Kids actually move quite slow. When they get into something, they want to stay there for quite a long time. That’s not where we’re at.

Women really find that microdosing helps them drop in. It helps soften the go, go, go and those charged edges and really just find joy in the simple presence of just hanging out with your kid. And then the third thing is reactivity, which kind of goes with it. Just, you know, very, I don’t think any mom likes yelling at her kids, right? We know we have abusive parents in the world and that’s its own thing. But generally speaking, most mothers really just want to be the best moms they can.

Tracey Tee (25:39.034)

and the shame that’s associated when you don’t show up is the best, can put you into a spiral. And women really just wanna be gentler with their children. They don’t wanna be as triggered by their kids. They don’t wanna yell at their kids. They wanna find a language of commonality. And the ones who work and really work to create an intentional microdosing practice through our program or someone else’s, find that the medicine is really supportive and just making you the mother that you want to be. And so it really, at the end, has nothing to do.

with you and everything to do with you, but so much to do. It’s really a lot of women in Moms on Mushrooms just are doing it for their kids.

Sam Believ (26:18.576)

I just had a question and it’s a little selfish. What about the fathers? Should they take more food?

Tracey Tee (26:25.956)

Okay, well first of all, Dads on Mushrooms is coming, so that is definitely on our list. I think if I say over and over that mothers are in distress and the mental health of mothers is concerning, I think we have the same issue with fathers. And I think the men who are wanting to step up in this day and age and really show up for their families and for their partners have very little support. I think there’s actually much more support.

female to female right now than there is man to man and certainly father to father. We’re seeing a rise of younger generations of men who are young and maybe considering starting a family and single who are working with this medicine and finding great healing. But just good old fashioned dads who just want to do right by their family, there’s not a lot. So we’re hoping to come and fill that gap. But I think the family that microdoses together probably stays together.

because you are gonna be connected on a deeper heart level. And it just makes those hard conversations, which happen in every relationship, easier to alchemize. And one thing that I think I always find myself so grateful to mushrooms for is the lessons that I am always learning. So before if something went wrong, I think I would slip into more of a victimhood or bitter and just angry that I’m…

you know, that my schedule is messed up or that I’m just irritated. And now if something bad happens, whether that’s a car accident or a death in the family or money or any number of things, life things, I find myself moving towards the lessons and finding gratitude in that moment because I feel myself growing and that is for sure from the medicine. So when a couple does that together, when a father can do that, gosh, magic.

Sam Believ (28:22.768)

Beautiful as you say if they might if they microdose together, they probably stay together I say the same thing the couples that drink together and I’m talking about ayahuasca stay together because if let’s say a mom starts microdosing she will slowly also start growing spiritually and mentally and eventually she might feel herself a bit Separate from her husband because she he wasn’t growing so it should be done together I get

Right now, all sorts of ideas coming about how to organize moms and dads, ayahuasca retreats. So we will talk about it later. Maybe we can partner up. I know you, I saw some videos of you like going on the news, talking about micro dosing and stuff like that. How does it get received? Do you get ridiculed? Do people listen? What’s the reaction when you talk about those topics?

Tracey Tee (29:01.476)

Mmm!

Tracey Tee (29:20.326)

You know, I have to say of all the news I’ve been so fortunate to have discussions about or go on, I would say 99 .5 % of all the responses have been overwhelmingly positive. We really don’t get a lot of negative feedback. I credit that to my relationship with God, the prayers I said before I started this company.

before I accepted this mission really is probably a better way to say it. And I think it also is a credit to our culture, to our society right now, who is hungry for change. And when someone speaks and relates to a normal mom or dad, however that looks, and you feel like those words might be yours, there just isn’t a lot of reason to ridicule and…

And anything that we have gotten that’s negative has truly just been from a place of misinformation. It’s just people who have bought into the misinformation that our government, governments collectively has siphoned to the public for 50, 60, 2000 years. And they’ve just decided to believe it. So it’s coming from a place of ignorance and fear. And it’s just hard to get upset about that because it’s just, you just don’t know the facts. But I’m really lucky to,

to have a lot of support kind of wherever I go.

Sam Believ (30:52.4)

Yeah, I think the society is getting more and more ready to receive this message and understand that, you know, maybe desperate enough with the mental health crisis that is going on. Tracy, I’m curious, you know, let’s say somebody who listens to this episode, they like your message and they want to learn about your program. Can you talk about them? How does it look like? More or less, you know, sum up what is the…

What does the program look like?

Tracey Tee (31:24.124)

Sure, yeah, we have kind of three buckets. Our first one is our private community membership. So I have a beautiful portal with thousands of mothers that’s completely off social media. And we have a private membership. It’s only $2 .22 a month. So ridiculously affordable. And it’s literally like Facebook for moms on shrooms. And that is the place where we invite.

mothers who are seasoned psychonauts and have been working with entheogenic medicine forever and have never really felt like they had a community, or mothers who are curious but still may be terrified, just want to learn more but don’t want to Google ayahuasca or psilocybin or follow a hashtag, which we know is a terrible idea. They can come and just learn from each other. And it’s just a constant conversation of mothers talking about their own experiences with this medicine, along with

tons and tons of resources for women to, for mothers to empower themselves. So that’s like the first bucket. The second bucket are our longer courses. We have a three and a half month, like get started microdosing course that’s really for the mom when she’s ready. We believe it takes about three months to feel that medicine working in your body, to unlearn some of the things that you believe not only about.

psychedelics, but about how medicine works, you know, unlearn the allopathic role and, and allow yourself to go through a few cycles of feelings. And those are held in containers of 10 women or less. So they’re super intimate. And you’re really supported from day one, as you create an intentional practice, because the truth is, is that in the end of the day, microdosing is like not really rocket science. It’s the intention behind it and the and the why behind why anyone does works with plant medicine.

is the important thing. And it’s actually a lot harder to establish than you might think. And then we have eight -week courses that come out throughout the year that are shorter and kind of condensed and focused around a central theme. So for example, right now, I’m about to launch one in mid -February that’s called Motherhood Microdusting and Magnetism, and it’s all about unblocking the throat chakra. So we roll those out a few times a year. And then we have just some…

Tracey Tee (33:40.614)

really great basic 101 courses. We have microdosing 101 for moms and macrodosing 101 for moms. And that is just the how, the why, the what the heck is this all through the lens of a mom and how she would want to enjoy that information. And those are kind of instant downloads. You can read it on the airplane in the middle of the night while you’re breastfeeding. Easy course packed full of information and resources.

And that’s really just my mission. Like I said earlier, it’s just to educate and empower women. And I think we have to learn about this medicine before we start working with it so that we have a full 360 degree relationship with it. So that’s really what we do.

Tracey Tee (34:30.172)

Oops. Sam, I can’t hear you.

Sam Believ (34:37.712)

My bad, I switched off the microphone. We’ll cut this piece out. Tracy, interesting question. I’m very curious. You not only do microdosing, you also do macrodosing. Can you share maybe the most profound experience or most crazy experience you’ve had on mushrooms?

Tracey Tee (35:01.18)

Oh gosh. There’s so many.

Tracey Tee (35:10.32)

Gosh, oh, I’m like, which one do I tell?

Sam Believ (35:13.968)

Hehehe.

Tracey Tee (35:16.444)

share a short story. I went to an Airbnb in the mountains of Colorado because I was writing and I just needed to get away and I brought medicine with me, you know, just as like, well, maybe I’ll do it, but I wasn’t really planning on it. And that morning, I had gotten up, I had made a really nice breakfast and I was just hanging out in the kitchen by myself. And I’m not one who kind of feels her guides come in outside of the medicine space very frequently. But it was like my

My entire Galactic team just showed up at the breakfast table and they were like, you’re doing medicine today. You won’t be writing. You’re taking the medicine. And I was just like, no way. There’s no way. I don’t have the time. I’ve got to go home tomorrow. I have all these things to do. And the messages were just so insistent. Like this is what you’re doing. You need to walk the walk. You need to get clear on some things. And I remember like in the kitchen, I said out loud, I go, well, I just had breakfast. And…

they didn’t seem to care. And so I, I, I heeded the call and that was one of the first times I had done the medicine kind of unguided and done it by myself and, uh, poured it into, um, put some mushrooms into some cacao and went on a walk and ended up going out into the forest in January in Colorado and like bundled up and essentially laid on the cold, hard ground surrounded by snow and had like my first official sort of initiation.

And it was during that journey where I was really asked, are you ready to follow this path? Like truly, are you ready to serve like you say you are? And it was this massive, massive questioning and initiation is the best word where I really had to get honest with myself about is this what I want to do probably for the rest of my life? And I will tell you that I wasn’t sure for quite a while. Felt like hours, I cried. I…

I questions, I cursed, and then I finally said yes. The minute I said yes, it was like I was transported through this portal. So many lessons from that day have come out to play over the past year. It was really beautiful. There’s more to say about that, but that’s like a two -hour podcast interview.

Sam Believ (37:37.434)

That sounds very familiar. It’s really hard to explain a psychedelic experience with human words. They’re just not enough. When you said you lay down on the ground, it reminded me of an experience I had about six months ago. Obviously, when we work with ayahuasca, I personally drink ayahuasca once a month, but sometimes I can’t for reasons of business.

There was this rough period I was going through emotionally in between two retreats. So I thought I’m going to go get a microdose and I didn’t really measure it. I think I ended up taking like a gram. Luckily it’s not, and I’m very sensitive to all the medicines, including ayahuasca. Luckily, maybe people who are on that mission are extra sensitive because medicines know like we need to get into it. So.

Tracey Tee (38:14.33)

Oh.

Tracey Tee (38:21.052)

Me too! Oh my gosh, I’m so sensitive.

Sam Believ (38:32.784)

And I also felt the desire to lie on the ground. Luckily so here in Columbia, it’s always warm and it was on the grass, not in the snow. And I was just, yeah, just rolling around and crying and, you know, just releasing emotions. It was, it was really nice, very, very difficult, but also I felt really nice. So yeah, it’s a, you know, there’s billion other things that’s happening, but that’s, that’s the kind of description you can give. Um, I, so as, as you know, we work with the Alaska, um,

Tracey Tee (38:56.572)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (39:02.416)

exclusively. We’re not allowed to serve mushrooms here in Colombia, at least for now. But I do oftentimes, when people want to come to do ayahuasca, they need to stop taking antidepressants. And a lot of times I recommend them to use mushrooms and microdosing to help with that. Obviously, I’m no expert on mushrooms and I know a lot of mothers might also be

on antidepressants and other medications. So would you, and of course not a medical advice, just from point of view of personal experience, what do you think? Could it be a good way of doing it?

Tracey Tee (39:44.092)

Yeah, we’ve seen a lot of women have a lot of success on following a very strict and methodical titration protocol. And I absolutely recommend that there’s some amazing pharmacologists out there that have, you know, Ben Malcolm, the spirit pharmacist, Emily Culpa, who are who have dedicated their path to the intersection of pharmaceuticals and psychedelics. And so I recommend anyone who wants to titrate down to consult with someone like that unless you’re

you know, God willing, your doctor actually understands it and work on a slow titration protocol to take yourself off because it can be very destabilizing to just quit SSRIs cold turkey. And microdosing can kind of swoop in and fill in those spaces to make the side effects a lot less. And we’ve seen that time and time again, where you’re not necessarily feeling.

some of the larger, more profound effects of microdosing because an SSRI can typically blunt the effects of psilocybin. But it really is coming in as like this nice, cozy, cuddly little helper as you titrate off and still allowing, like in real time allowing you to rewire your neural pathways as your body detoxes from the SSRIs. So I think it can be done.

well and we have seen great results. I just think it has to be done carefully and you have to have some patience. It’s not like I want to start microdosing and I want to stop my Zoloft and I want to do it this week. It doesn’t work like that. And as you know, and I know all of this medicine is slow. And so giving yourself time, and that’s why our foundational course is three and a half months, because it does take time, especially if you’ve been on an SSRI for a long time, you’re going to feel really different.

and it’s gonna be very unfamiliar territory to you when you titrate off. And that’s where microdosing can come in and support for sure.

Sam Believ (41:44.976)

Thank you Tracy. Well, it’s been a great episode. I know you’re a busy mom and you have to run. So before we finish any last recommendations for people and where can people find you and moms that are listening, where can they sign up for your program?

Tracey Tee (42:02.78)

Thank you. You can just go to momsonmushrooms .com. All of our information is there. I have a love -hate relationship with social, but if you want to follow us on Instagram, we’re at momsonmushroomsofficial, but I really encourage every mother who’s listening to join The Grow, which is our private community membership, $2 .22 a month. Just come in and join our community and relearn what it feels like to just talk to other moms without an expert.

at the helm. There’s no, it’s certainly not me, there’s no guru or some right or dogmatic way to do things. It’s just conversations and I believe that’s what the medicine is asking. And in terms of advice, I would just say to anyone who’s thinking about working with any plant medicine, know your why. Get real clear on why you want to do it. It may be something that you just want to experience.

But if you’re feeling like you’re feeling pressured from friends or family who have had these transformational experiences, if you feel like you’re at your last rope and you know this is the only thing that’s gonna fix you, I would just sit a moment longer and really understand your why and get clear. And then after you know your why, ask yourself, am I actually ready to change? Because whether it’s mushrooms or ayahuasca or a bogey or peyote or any number of entheogens.

you will be asked to change the things about yourself that are no longer working. And if you’re not willing to do that, you can drink all the ayahuasca on the planet and it’s never gonna help. So just be ready, be ready for change. And if it takes crying on a forest floor for five hours to do it, so be it. But change is the big equation.

Sam Believ (43:49.52)

Thank you, Tracy. And hopefully that’s not the last episode we do. And then the next one we’ll talk about mothers on ayahuasca. Guys, thank you for listening and I will see you in the next episode.

Tracey Tee (43:58.844)

Absolutely, I would love to.

Sam Believ (44:07.408)

I will then add a bit of an outro, summing up the…

In this episode of AyahuascaPodcast.com host Sam Believ has a conversation with Tim Laurence about the Hoffman process. What is it, what are the benefits and even what famous people have used it.

Find more about Tim and Hoffman process at http://www.hoffmaninstitute.co.uk

Transcript

Sam Believ: You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast.com.

Hi guys, in this episode of ayahuasca podcast.com. We speak with Team Lawrence. We talk about Hoffman process and we try to understand what it is and how it works. We talk about Tim’s personal ayahuasca experience and personal growth. We talk about what are the similarities between Hoffman process and Ayahuasca experience.

We talk about several famous people that have experienced Hoffman process and so much more. I’m sure you will enjoy this episode. Hi guys, and welcome to ayahuasca podcast.com. As always, with you the host, and believe today we’re joined by Tim Lawrence. Tim Lawrence is our guest here at Laro Retreat.

As you can see in the background, is a medicine house that we’re currently building. Tim is at our retreat for the second time. When were you here last

Tim Laurence: time, exactly A year ago. Almost to the day I think it was. Yeah. One, one day off. And it was my, it’ll be my anniversary

Sam Believ: exactly. Year goal. And it’s actually a very great practice coming doing ayahuasca once a year.

As I say, one up a day keeps the doctor away. I would say one Ayahuasca retreat a year keeps the psychiatrist away, tim is not just a guest here. He is a fascinating human being. He’s a writer, public speaker, a teacher, and a facilitator. Tim wrote a book called Hoffman Process that has been translated into seven languages.

Tim has been practicing Hoffman process for last 30 years, and he’s the last person to be trained by Hoffman himself. Correctly.

Tim Laurence: That’s true. Yeah. A few years ago back in the end of the eighties and the early nineties. So I’ve been doing it for about 30 years now.

Sam Believ: Tim, welcome to the podcast. So tell us a little bit about yourself.

Tim Laurence: Like many people who come here or who come to any kind of personal development, I was very interested in knowing more than what is normally provided. And some people get this when they’re 55. Some people are 25. I got it about the age of 15, I think. And at the time it was very easy to get into drugs.

And I think I. Took too much, too young. So that didn’t help me except gave me a sort of a sense that there must be something a lot more out there than was being taught in my general education. So I went to India, was there a year, did a lot of vipasana, but again, around the age of 22, too young to just be sitting, standing still.

But I noticed that everything I was interested in at the time. It was a blend of Eastern West and seemed to be emanating out of California, so I managed to make my way over there and spent the next 15 years in California learning everything I could, all kinds of different methods. And the Hoffman Method is a wonderful synthesis of programs.

So it doesn’t obviously use plant medicine, unfortunately, it isn’t totally legal in many countries. It uses a variety. Maybe, we can get into that later. You asked about me. I have two wonderful boys. They’re now both grown up 26 and 28. Still very much in good terms with my ex-wife who runs Hoffman in the uk.

I just love to travel. I always have loved to travel. I love to love languages. I love to be open and explore.

Sam Believ: You mentioned your ex-wife, is it true that she is a bond girl?

Tim Laurence: Yeah. I dunno how much she’d like me to say that she was a professionally trained writer, Royal Academy of Draft art actress, but she happened to be caught kissing in a scene.

As it was meant to be P President in the 1995 movie Golden Eye.

Sam Believ: That’s an interesting trivia. And only two kinds of people can date a bond girl, a bond himself or a bond villain, so I’m assuming, or a wannabe. Yeah. Yeah. Tim, obviously it’s your second time here. You’ve already, this time, you’ve done couple ceremonies already.

First of all how was your Ayahuasca experience so far? And tell us a little bit about your experiences, maybe highlights of that. And then maybe we can talk a little bit about parallels in between. The Hoffman process and let’s say what happens here at the Ayahuasca retreat.

Tim Laurence: Yeah, sure. ’cause they have the same format.

Remove yourself from the world, stop your daily routine and just listen. My experience a year ago was be I really wanted to come because I’d had one night on Ayahuasca in England and nobody I think got very much from it and we didn’t really integrate it or anything afterwards. So when I heard about this and I heard your podcast talking about it you sounded very articulate about it.

I researched it. Couldn’t find anything negative on your reviews. Bit suspect that, but it’s all seems to be true. And I had a really good time here. We had four ceremonies, two night and two daytime. And we also had the word circles whereby we got to integrate it. And as we went around in a group of 20 or so we were able, I think to hear just how different.

The medicine is for each different person, what it is they’re reflecting through their own past. If they have trauma, if they don’t have trauma, if they’re just having perhaps a wonderful opening, a connect to themselves, others, their universe, call it what you will of their experience. And I relax more and more into it.

And I remember the fourth time I was just in a state of blissful connection of oneness throughout. And that stayed with me for a long time. I would stay, say it stayed. The whole year and the memory of this being a, not just a safe place, but a happy place made me really want to come back and, yeah, like a car or something.

Get a bit of maintenance.

Sam Believ: Yeah, it’s I personally drink ayahuasca once a month, but it’s only one ceremony. So for, obviously not everyone has the luxury of living at the Ayahuasca retreat. In that case, when people ask me how long should my retreat be or should I help, how often should I come? I say, if you have a big issue you wanna resolve, come and do a couple longer retreats, and then when you feel better just once a year, it seems to be a very safe amount.

It’s funny you mentioned the reviews because, one girl recently said she was very suspicious as well. So many five star views. I think we’re treading around 350 right now. She basically, after doing her retreat and obviously enjoying it a lot, she said she put us four star view and in the comment said I would put 10 if possible, but she added four star.

So it’s so bringing it down. Yeah.

Tim Laurence: 5.0 to 4.98 or something.

Sam Believ: Yeah, something like that would be nice. It’s a good problem to have, you you’ve been working with this Hoffman Method for 30 years. The only thing I know about it is what I learned in preparation for this interview with information you provided.

Can you tell listeners, but more about that method and what drew you to it?

Tim Laurence: Our byline is when you are serious about change. So it’s a seven day intensive retreat where people really. Go when they’re fed up or being fed up when they’ve had some issues that come up again and again.

And usually they hear about it through word of mouth because on that level of intensity, you wanna know somebody who’s gone through it in order to be able to trust the various methods. I was attracted to it, partly because friends of mine did it, and though I was in a sort of a set of people.

Immigrated either from Europe or moved from the New York area to the west coast. We really interested in what was gonna. Make things change. We were dissatisfied. We wanted to know, was it Indian guru? Was it a psychedelic substance? Was it a therapy thing? And this method seemed to combine lots of things together.

Without going into the methodology, I can say that it, it looks at the physical, it looks at the emotional, it looks at the intellectual, rational. And it looks at the spiritual in straight psychology, I was a little frustrated because a lot of it was about what was wrong with us. There was no sort of out there.

Everything is fine just as it is. In some of the methods, there was too much intellect, the analysis. Some of the things I’d done were pure emotions, which is great, you can get out your anger or you can cry. You can shout and scream, but I just needed something. More to bring it all into place.

And I think particularly with Hoffman, it talks about forgiveness and I think you can get that as well a lot with the plant medicine. I hear a lot of people talking about getting understanding of forgiveness from the person who, had issues with them as a child many years ago. So we’re looking at all of that.

I was attracted to it because I myself was suffering. There’s a lot of addiction and pain in my, wanting to get away from pain in my family, my only brother committed suicide after drugs. So the many reasons why I got to do it. And yeah, we work with people who. Really wanna work who you know are dedicated to doing something about it.

Sam Believ: It’s very interesting because everything you said describing Hoffman Method if you would remove Hoffman, say Ayahuasca is very precise.

Tim Laurence: It’s very similar, isn’t it? It’s

Sam Believ: Word of mouth. That’s how we get all our people. You’d rather get a referral because it is an intensive process and you want to feel trust in somebody who’ve done it before and everything.

A complex medicine that goes to spirit body. The only thing missing is purging.

Tim Laurence: Yep. Yeah, that’s true. In fact, in a very early version ’cause I actually had also did quite a bit of research about Bob Hoffman and his life and how he got the process going in the sixties and seventies. ’cause it started actually in 67.

They’d have people when they were after working through the mother and father. Drink, I think salty water and provide them with a bucket to throw up in that isn’t done anymore. And it is unfortunate in terms of, I ask that, and another parallel is lots of people have objections to doing deep work.

Lots of people have objections to going away from home and having less contact with the world. One of the things yeah, I ask people can have an objection to it, purging when I, had negative associations with purging. But I like the Spanish word for it, isn’t it? It’s to alleviate.

Alleviate. And everybody, and certainly myself felt afterwards, this is just not a normal being sick because you’ve eaten something bad. This is a wonderful cleansing. The plant medicine helps you and getting goosebumps when I say that, and sound like the true converted. The purging is very much a part of it, isn’t it?

Sam Believ: Yeah. For those of you who are listening, and you haven’t done Ayahuasca before and you’re. Wondering about that part of the process. Sometimes you feel like negativity from your body and the memory. It all comes together into your stomach and it’s churning and you feel like emotional becomes physical and then you purge it and it has the.

Bodily evacuation leaves your body. You are left with feeling of lightness. And this is why they call it, to alleviate in the Colombian ayahuasca tradition. So sometimes when you, after working with Ayahuasca for a while and going back to work with, let’s say other plant medicines like mushrooms and in which a lot of times you don’t purge, some people report to me that they have missed the purge because there is definitely something about that.

Transmutation from emotional to physical and then the purge. Tim I’m curious about you said you, you were the last to be trained by Bob Hoffman.

Tim Laurence: Yeah. So he was the man who founded. How did you meet him? That’s a question. He was my teacher on the Hoffman process, and that was coincidence.

Though, it was put on every month in in the East Bay in ca, in Northern California. He, for the last few years had been working in Europe and in Australia establishing it, but it was December he’d come back. So it was my. Teacher and he was very intuitive and he encouraged me to apply for the training.

And then it just so happened again the next summer. He was, he’d, he was done with his traveling and he trained me. A lot of it was apprenticeship, you were onsite learning from the master. And then when I had qualified, we went and. Taught in Canada a few times. So I got to know him and his method pretty well, and he was very intuitive.

I think one of the brilliant things about that was that it wasn’t a theory, it wasn’t a psychological theory, although it’s based on certain things like, look at your the dynamics in your family system. He was a fascinating man who didn’t know how to handle much technology, but he just had a wonderful spirit and he would always be.

He’d always be tuning in.

Sam Believ: Sounds a bit like a shaman, he is maybe he had some kind of connection to the spirit. He quite enjoyed being called an

Tim Laurence: urban shaman. He wasn’t a sort of out there in the jungle or the desert. A shaman, but certainly people. And remember, he was, this was in the.

Berkeley and San Francisco. There are a lot of people way out there, like CLA in Aho, who you know is known for doing many different things. He’s now passed on, but a Chilean psychiatrist who talked a lot about using psych psychedelics. So he was definitely face of that. One of his great friends was Leo Zeff, who was later exposed as the, I think, what was it called, the chieftain.

He was able to. To turn on thousands of therapists onto LSD in Berkeley would just sit with them. So there was a bit of that. Beyond the mind. Very much beyond the mind.

Sam Believ: Definitely. I think that’s that’s the area where the healing

Tim Laurence: happens. One, there was one researcher, but I must look it up.

If I can find it. Find it again. Who said that? Psychedelics. And this is like Hoffman too, allow. Parts of the mind to talk together that don’t usually communicate. And it, and he also used the expression that they flatten the landscape of the mind. And I see that as very bumpy parts in our, what Michael Pollen, who I think is wonderfully explained things in the book, how to change your mind.

He explains that so much of our time is spent in our default modal network. And in Hoffman in meditation, in plant medicine, you manage to get out of that. Something grabs you and gets you beyond your normal anxiety or depression or fear. And so whatever we can do to help, it’s reduction of the ego, isn’t it?

It’s like the ego is very necessary for getting on in the world, but. It so gets in our way.

Sam Believ: Yeah. As I like to explain to patients that come to the retreat is that ego is necessary and it protects you from the outside and your ego is what brought you here. But as this ego gets constructed and it gets traumatized by, life events, it ends up being this kind of ugly construction.

And sometimes you need to dismantle it to reconstruct it, but slightly nicer every time. Yeah. And this is where psychedelics come helpful. The Yeah. But ego is very difficult to work with. As I like to use this analogy of a cat trying to put a cat in the bath. It’ll come up with lots excuses.

So that’s why I guess lots of people are so avert to deep work. Also, I think ego

Tim Laurence: in a spirit tradition is often ignored or pushed down or, thought of as bad, but it, that just comes back and bites him in the ass, and look at all the stuff that goes on in spiritual communities or the Catholic church.

You can’t get rid of ego. But I think both of our types of work allow us to. Go softly with self love and Oh yeah, I’ve got this pattern of behavior we use, we use the word pattern a lot or I’ve got this thing going on with me. Somebody in the group was saying, people consider me an asshole.

But she was saying that with humor and self love about being able to gently pro that. And I see, myself. Doing this work as a chance not to be in my ego of I am a facilitator, I’m the person leading the group. Because when you go up with the wonderful medicine, your ego has to get way in the background.

Sam Believ: I must tell you, Tim your ego is pretty much in check because it took me a year to learn about who you are and your achievements and some people would. Say, my name is Tim, I’m the founder. I’m this and that. And you’ve been very humble about who you are and what you do and including, I said Tim, I’m gonna introduce you as a writer.

And you said no, I’m not a writer. Yes, you are a writer. ’cause you wrote a book and it’s it’s a pretty.

Apparently Hoffman Method is pretty popular and can you tell us about. The story about Orlando Bloom and Katy Perry?

Tim Laurence: As long as they’ve admitted to doing the process, I can say something. ’cause I knew that Katy Perry, ’cause I’ve been in quite a few processes where people that she’s recommended have done it.

And so she’s a big champion and she would send all, all her friends, some of whom she would pay for to do it as well. What I didn’t know is how public Orlando Bloom was. Was about it. But apparently he has come out and said it and great if a couple can do it. I don’t know so much about their story, but somebody was suggesting that Orlando Bloom did it before, and Katy Perry saw the piece inside of him and said, I’m not used to that, so I better change my own behavior.

I don’t know if that’s true or not. I’d have to see her. In interview for me to be able to say that. But yeah, there are a lot of, I don’t know, again, it’s word of mouth. So a lot of the Hollywood crowd would come and do it in in the US There’s a beautiful site in Petaluma, in Marin County and we get a lot of celebrities, but a lot compared to what it is, it’s just that it’s easier sometimes.

To get a newspaper mention or a magazine article when they can say, oh, the beautiful Sienna Miller did it, or The wonderful Tandy Newton did it, or whatever he says, dropping a few names in there.

Sam Believ: It’s good to have famous people. Actually promote positive things.

Tim Laurence: Yeah. Because, they’ve got their, they’ve got their reputation.

’cause with this and with my work could be seen as pretty wacky, pretty out there. If it affected them positively and they want, as you say, to affect a positive change. Yeah. Good for them.

Sam Believ: Kathy and Orlando, if you’re listening, you are invited to LoRa. Maybe then they can help us spread the world about.

Psychedelic renaissance and that it is medicine, not a drug. They talk about Hoffman Method as a nons psychedelic experience.

Tim Laurence: Yeah, no, it’s funny that because, and the more I found out about psychedelic, so it’s obviously I knew them as a teenager and then I’d left them for a long time, and then I was with the world of Hoffman.

The connections are, we both allow people to go way beyond their normal way of seeing things. They can have a vision. We allow people to go beyond their past and forgive. We allow people to drop from their normal mindset and achieve a sense of calm, and at the same time, they may experience great fear.

On the way to experience some great joy, the same gate over their, that has kept them feeling, has, sorry. It’s the same gateway that keeps ’em in prison in anger or sadness can open to joy. So there’s a lot to unpack if you’re willing to unpack it. Unfortunately, most of the world is happy to keep things very much on the down low sedated with, you know what?

The internet, junk food, tv, Netflix, whatever it is.

Sam Believ: I shared with you my somewhat crazy idea about combining those kinds of experiences like Hoffman Method or other kinds of self-work group setting events with Ayahuasca, for example. I had this idea about maybe. Using some form of microdosing, whether it be Ayahuasca or another PSAB mushrooms or San Pedro, and then doing the work.

If maybe that could be. Helpful to increase the efficiency or speed of opening up or maybe depth you can go to, in your opinion, how does this two lines of self-work can be mutually beneficial? Whether done together or separately? Let’s say doing once a year, doing Ayahuasca and once a year doing Hoffman method.

Tim Laurence: Okay, so how are they compatible? Firstly. Hoffman, in the countries we do it in, unfortunately we can’t even do Microdosing. Did you ever see that program? Nine Perfect Strangers with Nicole Kidman. That’s where she does personal development work and gets ’em to do lots of stuff about their parents, but then she micro doses them with psilocybin smoothies in the morning.

And I joke sometimes at the side of the process. By the way, guys, I’m sorry you won’t be getting any smooths. What we can do or what you can do and what wonderful academy in California is doing is training people to assist. As trained therapists and use psychedelics and in that, or MDMA or ps or psilocybin in that to provide a skillful training to talk with somebody before to accompany them during and to help ’em integrate afterwards the work they need to do, whether it’s relationships, whether it’s, trauma from a war or childhood, or whether it’s just, yeah, needing to unpack the nitty gritty of life.

So I would say it needs to be done skillfully. ’cause as you can’t just do this on your own. It really does need, it really does need guidance.

Sam Believ: Yeah. Ayahuasca work is extremely powerful, but it is chaotic sometimes. And guidance definitely help. We try and do that by helping people set intentions and integrate that experience in the form of.

Written integration journals and also sharing circles. But yeah, if you could get a professional, that would be nice. Two episodes ago, if I’m not mistaken, we have interviewed Simon. Simon. He is a si, he’s a therapist. Who came here to, TO, and he expressed interest in volunteering and doing this kind of work.

So Simon, if you’re listening, we still remember about you. So

Tim Laurence: no, if somebody could come here where it, it’s acceptable, it’s legal and work with people before, during, and after, that would be great. What you do, and I don’t think you’ve given yourself enough credit for it. You model the word circle very well.

You and a couple of your assistants will start off the word circle to enable people as we go around in the group of 20 or so to speak deeply about their experiences. And in so doing that, they might even not have realized it before. And you also encourage us to journal it, anything that could make it more concrete rather than just, a memory of the night before.

Sam Believ: Definitely we’re trying our best and improving gradually. As you can see, this building behind you

Tim Laurence: made huge improvements since last year. Yeah, this huge building here where the ceremonies will be, but also you’ve got the coming up 10 cabins. You’ve got a wonderful pathway down to the river. You’ve got loads of same things and the food top notch.

Sam Believ: Yeah. As as a, from a perspective of somebody who also facilitates the retreats what do you think about the work we do or maybe just generally, what do you think is the future of those plant medicines and how does it make you feel? Is it, is it optimistic or, you

Tim Laurence: know I think even in the last few years we’ve seen a great acceptance of them.

Gal Matte gets mentioned quite a bit and his books sell hugely, has huge turnups for his talks and his coaching. I think he does a whole program and his podcasts and other people too. And I think, is it legal now in Austria or Portugal or, it’s legal in religious sense in Brazil and the us So it becomes more and more normalized.

So my hope is that as it becomes more normalized, it becomes more like a ritual, a rite of passage rather than something weird that we’ve gotta not mention. I like what you said to me once, which is a, rather than hearing, asking somebody, have you ever done ayahuasca? It will turn to, when was the last time you did ayahuasca?

But it needs, it does need a bit of public image work as it were, mark subtle marketing, but the marketing will be, people like you and me talk, telling our friends about it.

Sam Believ: Yeah. And also. This kinda work, creating content and for people to see more people who have done it before see that it is actually safe if it’s done responsibly, and that you can achieve great results.

And another famous person that I’ve heard about, what happened to Justin Bieber and why his why he walked away from his Hoffman process.

Tim Laurence: We can talk about Justin B because he actually mentioned it in an interview with one of the Vogue international editions. It isn’t for everybody, just as this isn’t for everybody.

You have to come when you are very ready. And I imagine that he wasn’t that well prepared for it, or too many people encouraged him because they could perhaps see he was having a really difficult time. And the fact a major star like that, there’s hundreds of people whose income depends upon him. So they wanted perhaps Justin, please clean up your act.

He wasn’t ready. It wasn’t his thing. I think he walked out. On, he said on the fourth day. ’cause it was just weird for him. And he said, I far prefer to go and hang out and hug my my, my wife. We try to vet people as much as we can beforehand. There’s an interview, there’s something like eight hours of written work to do that we’ll ask them not to.

Drink or, have too much of a social life right before we ask ’em to have a couple of days afterwards. But one thing came from the Justin Bieber disappearance. Other magazines then started saying calling us the world’s toughest therapy. Are you? Are you, can you handle the world’s toughest therapy?

It’s not that tough. And actually we don’t even really brand it as therapy. It’s parcel development, series of structured exercises really, you really use the day well that may or may not have a positive effect. Of course, we hope they do

Sam Believ: well. Yeah, I think I asked all the questions that I wanted to ask.

Is there anything else you wanna teach us about Hoffman methods or. Is there any message you want the audience to walk away with?

Tim Laurence: I’d just say people listening to this podcast or even searching the term personal development, ayahuasca Hoffman or whatever, are already interested.

At some point, people need to leave getting information and just trust an inner voice. ’cause that’s an inner voice that will help them in this work. That inner voice comes beyond just. Avery Day, executive function of the mind. So for all the people out there who are interested in personal ment, go with what you want.

When you are ready. When you are ready. The teacher is there.

Sam Believ: Beautiful words. Tim where can people find about you?

Tim Laurence: On the internet, Hoffman institute.co uk is our English one hoffman institute.org for the US or hoffman international.com. For the Hoffman International, it’s about 15 countries.

Sam Believ: Guys, you’ve been listening to Iowa podcast.com as always, with you the host, Sam Leaf.

Thank you for listening to this episode of why podcast.com. Remember. To leave us a like and subscribe to us, whatever it is you’re listening by doing so, you also helping us spread the world, spread the word about psychedelic renaissance and help with the ongoing mental health crisis.

Nothing in this episode is medical advice and is for informational purposes only.

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast host Sam Believ has a conversation with Rachel Harris.

We talk about the difference between the psychedelic guide and a therapist,  psychedelic ubderground in US, Rachel’s New book swimming in the sacred

Find more about Rachel and her books at http://www.swimminginthesacred.com

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:00.957)

Hi guys and welcome to ayah As always with you the host, Sam Believ, the founder of the Lawyra Ayahuasca Retreat. Today we’re joined by Rachel Harris. Rachel is a PhD. She’s a psychologist. She has 40 years of private practice. She’s a prolific researcher, published more than 40 studies in peer review journals. Her books are

listening to ayahuasca and her recent book is swimming in the sacred in her last book she interviews women psychedelic guides in the psychedelic underground and we’re going to talk about rachel her life story her journey and also her latest book rachel welcome

Rachel Harris (00:45.086)

I’m sorry.

Rachel Harris (00:48.584)

Hi, thank you, Sam.

Sam Believ (00:51.157)

Rachel, before we start talking about your book, can you tell us what brought you in that line of work?

Rachel Harris (00:58.862)

Ha ha

Rachel Harris (01:03.562)

You know, when I just want to say something about the recent book, the Swimming in the Sacred, those are the women elders from the psychedelic underground. They’ve been practicing for 30 or 40 years, and they were trained by some of the luminaries in the psychedelic world. And, um, that was in the late sixties and seventies. And I was in California during that time also. And I knew some of those luminaries. I was around,

a good supply of good quality psychedelics. And I chose to go to graduate school and not work underground. And so I knew some of the same people that they knew. I had a lot of similarities in my background, but I went to totally different direction. And so that was how I came to this work to begin with. I mean, the Ayahuasca story is more specific.

And that was after my daughter was launched. She was in her twenties. I was living in Princeton, New Jersey and I wanted to go to a winter escape, to a retreat center that was warm and by the ocean. And I had heard about this place in Costa Rica and I just went to go swimming and get a suntan. And then a day before I was leaving,

The woman organizing the trip called and asked if I wanted to be in the ceremonies. And I didn’t know what she was talking about. I mean, I really hardly looked at the program. Jeremy Narvey was talking. He was there all week and I didn’t recognize who he was. So I, you know, as soon as I realized, Oh, it’s a psychedelic ceremony. I was ready. I mean, my daughter was launched.

You know, I was ready to pick up my old life from the late 60s in California. So that’s how I sort of just fell into it.

Sam Believ (03:03.885)

It’s a great story and I like how your ayahuasca experience seems synchronistic. And in this line of work, you start noticing lots of synchronicities where things just come your way. You know, when you talk about psychedelic underground, for some and for me especially, when I think about underground, I think about like a…

like a dark valley, sorry, dark alley in like a city and something like that. So I know that’s not what it really is, but what is psychedelic underground? How does it look like?

Rachel Harris (03:37.238)

No.

Rachel Harris (03:41.374)

You know, it looks very different depending on how much experience the person has. So, you know, the women I interviewed have more experience in psychedelics than anybody else in modern Western culture. They’ve been working with these medicines for 30, 40 years. I mean, one woman is 90 years old now. So she was in her late 80s when I interviewed her and she was trained by Leo Zeph, who this is a book I recommend it’s on. You can get it free on the MAPS website.

It’s the secret chief and the secret chief revealed and it’s an interview of Leo’s F. So you’re reading his words and she trained with him in the 60s. So, you know, these women go way back and they have decades of experience. So this is a unique underground. It’s not a dark alley. They have medical doctors they’re connected to. They refer to therapists as needed. They are professionals.

But because these medicines were made illegal, they had to work secretly. So the big thing about the underground is that it’s secret.

Sam Believ (04:49.613)

Yeah, it’s not really underground. I understand that. But the word itself makes it makes the imagination go. So it is definitely a misconception and a historical mistake. I believe that great people like this ended up having to hide, you know, their lives work. And hopefully it is being changed now and fixed. But now the problem and you talk about it a lot that we have the

sort of coming up and they’re in a hurry and they don’t necessarily ground themselves in this beautiful experience these elders have accumulated. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?

Rachel Harris (05:32.642)

Well, you know, I presented them at the MAPS conference in last June, 23 in Denver. And this lovely young woman comes up to me and she says, I’m a guide, I’m working in the underground. Oh, that’s wonderful. And how do you do your medical screening? And she said, what’s that? So I really say, don’t go to anyone who does not do comprehensive medical screening.

and don’t lie to them because people lie about their medical histories. Don’t do that. This is a serious thing. And so the women I interviewed, you know, have, well, one woman has 16 pages of medical questions that she has people fill out. So they’re professionals and they’re working with consultants who are medically trained. And if the, the people doing the screening are not doing that level of interviewing, don’t go to them.

So there’s a, I really say, look, it’s a buyer beware market. There’s a wide range of people, so-called working guides in the underground, but be selective, be careful. And I tend to like people who have, I tend to wanna work with people who have served apprenticeships, who have been trained for years. And the concept of an apprenticeship is not well known in our Western culture, but…

For instance, I’m staying at a friend’s place in California and he’s in the jungle in Peru now as we speak. So, you know, I’m escaping from my main island where I don’t spend the winter. And this is a dear friend of mine and he’s been working with Shipipo Shaman. It’s now seven years. That’s an apprenticeship. It’s a very long time.

Sam Believ (07:28.957)

Mm-hmm.

Rachel Harris (07:31.23)

And one of the women I interviewed, for instance, she said, she also trained with a different Shipibo shaman. And she said, after about six years, he said to her, you’re ready to sing in ceremony. And she said, no, I’m not. And she sat right next to him. And this is sort of a tradition for the apprentices. She sat next to him. And as he sang in ceremony, she knew the Icarus. She sang a nanosecond right behind him.

And then they could talk, they could whisper in the ceremony, in vivo, about what they were seeing and the impact of the Icaros. So she had that kind of direct supervision and training. That’s what I look for in a guide.

Sam Believ (08:14.754)

Mm-hmm.

That’s beautiful. I have a personal story about people lying in the questionnaires. One of the questions in our preparation is about the history of psychosis. And recently, we had a person that obviously said no, no to history of psychosis. But in the word circles, then later sharing in the story, it came out that he had psychosis and it was I had to talk him talk to him about that.

Yeah, people unfortunately have secrets and yet Titus and here in Columbia, the shamans are called Titus. And our Titus, he also travels with his apprentice and he’s a Mexican guy. He sold all his possessions and basically dedicated his life to learning that craft. And it definitely takes a long time and a certain amount of talent and good intentions.

Rachel Harris (08:55.051)

Yes.

Sam Believ (09:15.357)

But yeah, I do notice a lot of times now, and it happens to us as well. Personally, I’m not a shaman. I’m not trying to be a shaman. Maybe eventually someday if I get a calling for it, but we get people oftentimes that come and after one ceremony or one retreat, they want to be a shaman. And what I like to say is don’t confuse an invitation to study at the university, like, you know, this letter that you received that you’ve been approved to study.

Rachel Harris (09:30.765)

Yes.

Sam Believ (09:45.157)

don’t confuse it with an actual diploma and call yourself a shaman because in between that it’s a there’s a long period of training what do you think about this concept of rushed shamans and the sort of new generation wanting to be shamans and just speeding the process

Rachel Harris (10:03.75)

I love your answer. It’s very close to the answer I got from one of the women elders. And she said, if you feel like you’ve received a calling, it’s a calling to begin to study. It’s not a calling to lead ceremony. So it’s really the same thing you’re saying. And I think that’s a great answer. I think our culture doesn’t really appreciate what an apprenticeship is.

and how long and how, how comp, what level of personal development and skill is involved in working with these medicines? And we don’t really respect it. I mean, let’s be honest about it. We have to learn more about what it means to work with these medicines and to learn from them and with them. I even interviewed one woman, this is not one of the elders.

And she had been to one of the retreat centers in Peru. And she said, well, everybody’s doing a dieta. So I thought I should do one too. And I said, well, are you working with a shaman? Did the shaman prescribe the dieta? She said, no, just everyone’s doing it. So I thought I would do it. That’s not how it works. I mean, she’s missing that link, that there’s a transmission and an initiation and that how a lineage works.

So we’re just not very respectful as a culture. And it’s really kind of sad for me, frankly. But I could add one thing about one of the women, this is the one with the 15 or 16 page medical interview. She said, because she knows people lie about their medical history. And I have to say, when I get a driver’s license, I lie about my weight. So, you know, I’m not.

Sam Believ (11:31.997)

Mm-hmm.

Rachel Harris (12:01.682)

I’m not pure about this. You know, in a medical situation, I tell the truth, but there are other times I lie. But anyway, she said, she asks them, what medications have you been prescribed? And then she recognizes if they’ve been prescribed an antipsychotic, that means they’ve had serious psychiatric problems. And so she has a couple of different ways of getting to the truth of the medical history.

Sam Believ (12:31.733)

It’s a bit like cross questioning I believe they do in police like to ask you questions to then lead you to sneakily give out the truth. Well regarding the hurry that we have in our culture I think we can’t really judge people specifically I think it’s an issue of a culture at large we’re sort of know that okay if you go to the medical school you study certain amount of years you spend certain amount of money you get certain amount of

Rachel Harris (12:37.175)

Yeah, right.

Sam Believ (13:00.867)

to deal with the uncertainty of you know shamanist world where you know you sit somewhere for a long time and 10 years passed and then you get some result but it’s I think people go to it for a wrong reason I think shamanism being a shaman is a blessing and a curse and it’s actually not something you should really want to do it’s something that’s normally is

Sam Believ (13:30.237)

higher presence or spirit. But talking about that, now you mentioned that it’s very important for guides that get into work with psychedelics, let’s say, psychedelic assistance, psychotherapy, it’s important for them to learn about plant medicines or psychedelics and experience themselves first to a certain extent and not just get into it.

with only knowledge but not knowing what it actually is.

Rachel Harris (14:08.218)

You know, the women guides did years of work on themselves with medicines and with psychotherapy to kind of, to clear their own systems. Not that it’s, not that we’re ever completely clear and clean, but to do their own work. And you know, you want this in someone working with these medicines. And I want to clarify that these women are not therapists. They do.

preparation and they do debriefing or minimal integration, somewhat akin to the research teams, a couple of sessions maybe. But if somebody really needs therapy, they refer them to a licensed therapist, someone who is familiar with the medicines and knows how to work with the experiences. And that’s a longer term process. I mean, when we talk about the…

the limitations in the North American culture. There’s another limitation that I like to talk about. And that is that we, in the States, went for psychedelic experiences. But in Europe, they work with psycholytic, which means smaller doses, but clearly a journey. So not a microdose. Smaller doses where the person can be, can talk to the therapist. So they’re not…

they’re not getting, you know, swamped with the experience. And the purpose is not to get to a mystical experience, but that the experience is grounded in ongoing therapy. So the system may look like one journey a month and two therapy sessions a week. So you can see that the medicine experience is well integrated into the therapeutic process.

That’s a whole different way of working with medicines that we have not begun to look at or even study. And yes, it would be more expensive. And, you know, we are because of the great need, we’re trying to research the most cost effective approach. But I think it’s important for us to know there are other approaches as well. That are not the same.

Rachel Harris (16:30.482)

And we have just certain this is still being used in Europe today, but, Oh, I don’t really know anyone who’s doing this in the States.

Sam Believ (16:39.961)

It’s great that you mentioned the dosage and the strength of the experience because the shaman we currently work with, he is great at finding that dose to get people

to this productive space where they get the healing, but not to blow their mind away so that they get sometimes even more traumatized than before and get the sort of psychedelic PTSD. And a lot of times we have to deal with a lot of impatience when people come and they want it immediately, they want it now and they…

Rachel Harris (17:09.162)

Yes.

Sam Believ (17:17.201)

they want the strong experience, but I believe that they be careful what you wish for because when they do get there and they do go very deep, they sometimes regret it. I’ve never heard this word before, psycholytic, but it’s interesting. Maybe something in between psycholytic and psychedelic, maybe there’s a gold deluxe zone where you get a strong experience, but it’s not too strong. My question to you.

Rachel Harris (17:43.21)

So let me just say this is one of those mysteries for the shaman to pour the medicine appropriately for each person. And I generally hear from people who are older that they need less medicine. And certainly I do believe the more experienced someone is with the medicine, they know how to get to those spaces. They sort of…

They don’t need as much to break through, so to speak. And some people are more sensitive and able to shift states of consciousness more easily than other people. So they require less medicine.

Sam Believ (18:26.457)

It is very mysterious because you can sometimes have a 250 pound, six foot five guy have half a cup and be completely blown away. And yeah, and like 80 pound tiny lady drink three cups and not really connect. I personally am one of those sensitive people. I can get there on half a cup. I think maybe over time you get kind of like a map or you find that specific.

Rachel Harris (18:38.55)

It’s not by weight.

Sam Believ (18:55.937)

mind state where it’s easier for the medicine to enter you. But it is a mystery because from a pharmacological point of view, it’s really hard to explain why is that way and how come those two people can have that kind of connection and next night they can switch and it can go. So but Shaman, a practice Shaman, he would, a person comes to the altar, he looks at them

Rachel Harris (19:14.219)

Yes.

Sam Believ (19:24.145)

and then just pours the cup and somehow he knows what they need, not what they want but what they need always.

Rachel Harris (19:30.486)

That’s part of the mystery, isn’t it?

Sam Believ (19:32.913)

Yeah. So obviously you have interest and explored both the scientific approach and the therapeutic approach to psychedelics and also the more traditional more shamans elders kind of approach to it. What do you think about new age kind of psychedelics or versus traditional plant medicines? For example, ketamine versus ayahuasca. What

What do you think is the difference? What’s the use case?

Rachel Harris (20:02.986)

these are two totally different experiences and they’re really not comparable. Ketamine is not even a psychedelic. It’s a dissociative. It’s very helpful if someone is suffering with treatment resistant depression or suicidal. I mean, you know, the psychiatric drugs can take three weeks to begin to work and if someone’s really suffering and at risk for suicide,

Three weeks is a very dangerous time length and ketamine can break somebody out of that in an afternoon now That’s amazing. I mean psychiatry has to rethink everything about drugs and treatment because of because of ketamine and some of the psychedelics But ayahuasca is completely different. I mean you never know What your experience is going to be and you know, even if you’re very

You know, I did my first ayahuasca ceremony in 05 and I’m terrified every time I go to a ceremony and I never know what’s going to happen. So it’s not like it can be prescribed exactly for a certain diagnosis. We just never know. So it’s really impossible to compare them.

Sam Believ (21:21.981)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (21:25.989)

Yeah, there’s a lot of variety in what we have, even with plant medicines, there’s many, and I keep discovering more, meaning stumbling upon them. Personally, of course, we focus on ayahuasca because I think it’s a very complete psychedelic with sort of everything you might expect, both from.

healing and spiritual journey. So you mentioned that you’ve tried ayahuasca before in that retreat in, was it Costa Rica?

Rachel Harris (22:01.715)

The first ceremony I went to was in Costa Rica and the shaman were from Ecuador, so they were Ecuadorian. I think they were from the Shuar tribe.

Sam Believ (22:08.466)

Mm-hmm.

Sam Believ (22:12.775)

Can you talk to us a little bit about your own iOS experience? How was it? Or maybe anything interesting you’ve learned?

Rachel Harris (22:20.814)

Well, you know, what has not been researched is people’s experience with loved ones who have died. And so my very first experience, I got to talk to my father again at the end of his life. He had died six years before that. And I got to re-experience my last conversation with him. So it was this incredible reunion.

And at the time of his dying, I had an out-of-body experience in the sense that I sort of went with him as he was leaving. And it terrified me. And so I brought my, I recognized what it was right away, and I brought myself back down, grounded myself, sat down, and did grounding, had my feet on the floor, and looked around me. But I.

I was afraid if I went with him I would die also and of course I was I was it was 20 years ago I was healthy I was healthy

Rachel Harris (23:29.622)

But in the first ayahuasca ceremony, I was able to travel with him and to go with him across what’s usually called the River Styx. But for me, I experienced this as a dark void, a starry night. And it was really wonderful to have that resolution and to say goodbye to him again. And that was just extremely therapeutic. And I’ve had…

A lot of people, more with ayahuasca than any other medicine, tell me they were able to talk to someone who had died or someone who had committed suicide, and they were able to talk to them and understand what happened and to resolve their, any feelings of guilt and loss. It’s this wonderful reunion opportunity. And ayahuasca is, I mean, it is the vine of the dead. I mean, it’s very specific for.

crossing that, you know, crossing into the death realm. I mean, an interesting thing happened for me because as I started writing the book, interviewing the women, I realized I had never done the protocol that everybody, that the research teams are using, the standard protocol with music and earphones and eye shades and lying down under, I had just never done that.

because I had done psychedelics in the 60s, we were always out in nature. We had a spiritual approach to it, but we were on the top of a ridge, a mountain in Big Sur. It was always gorgeous, but it was about nature. And so I arranged to do an MDMA session with one of the elders. And I thought, well, this’ll be fun. MDMA is heart opening and…

fills you with oxytocin, it should be a wonderful experience, if not outright fun. I went right to an ayahuasca place. My MDMA session was all about dying. And I, you know, how do I understand that? I think it’s just because I have the express train to the ayahuasca territory. So it was very therapeutic for me in the sense of working with my own end of life issues.

Rachel Harris (25:54.126)

and mortality, but it was not the fun experience that I was looking forward to. So, you just never know how your system’s going to respond to a journey. And Ayahuasca has a pretty strong imprint in me over these last 20 years or so.

Sam Believ (26:16.413)

Thank you for sharing that. And what you mentioned about talking to diet relatives because we do receive about 700 people a year. It’s a recurring theme, which is very interesting. But what’s very mysterious is that people not only talk to diet relatives and sort of make peace, but sometimes they get specific instructions to let’s say talk to other family members and tell them something

no way they could have known and it sort of freaks people out. So I no longer think it’s just a product of your imagination. I think that there definitely is a connection and few episodes ago I interviewed the Mary Taliano and she’s a basically a person that guides people in their end of life process people who are who are dying of cancer and she uses psychedelics as well to help them and

There’s there was I don’t know if you know anything about it, and I would be very curious to know if you do but in ancient Greece they consumed this psychedelic called Kikion which Which was once a year sort of Event and but their motto I believe was if you die before you die you don’t die when you die so it’s kind of like using psychedelics as a Rehearsal for death and sort of

learning how to navigate that space. What do you think about all that?

Rachel Harris (27:50.858)

that this is an ancient tradition in Eleusis. And I think it’s the name of the book, it’s Journey to Eleusis or Journey, something like that. And so they have found that there are remnants of plants that were mixed with the wine. And it was an initiation process to deal with people’s mortality fears.

Sam Believ (27:55.235)

Mm-hmm.

Sam Believ (28:01.349)

illusion mystery.

Rachel Harris (28:19.714)

that are classic. I mean, you know, we never know how we’re going to deal with death and there is real preparation. And so this was done in a sacred secret setting and it was the women who mixed the plants with the wine and prepared the Kikion. So it’s very interesting that it’s a female tradition. And I, you know, this is, I mean, I think that MDMA experience, it wasn’t fun, but it was another.

psychedelic experience that I’ve had that is really good preparation. We’ll see if it works. You know, I’m not quite ready to go, but you know, we never, my friend of mine calls it the final exam, how we deal with our own mortality. So, you know, we can’t really predict how we’re going to be when we’re faced with it. But, you know, I had a good friend of mine who had spent years following the Grateful Dead. And so this was, you know, this was in the 60s and 70s.

And so this was, you know, this was not a spiritual setting. Well, maybe they thought it was, but it was, it was a rock concert. And that was, but when he sat with a doctor who basically told him, you have a year to live, his response was, I’m ready to go. I did a lot of acid when I was younger. The doctor has sort of taken a back, but that was, and that was his real position. And that’s how he spent that last year. He was

He accepted it, he built a beautiful dining room table for his wife and he was ready to go. And it was from those early experiences with acid. Now I just recently had lunch with one of the people who was years, you know, 50 years ago involved with the Grateful Dead and, you know, she was talking about those old times and asked if I had ever gone to a concert.

And see, this is how I’m different from these women elders. I said, no, all those people, all that noise, I would be like, keep it down. Let’s have a little quiet here. I could not have tripped on anything in the middle of a rock concert. So, you know, these women elders have been everywhere in the history of psychedelics.

Sam Believ (30:37.353)

Mm-hmm. Good.

Rachel Harris (30:39.002)

And the theme of working with death and dying is really pronounced. And so it’s NYU who’s doing psilocybin with terminal cancer patients. And you can look up on YouTube, Tony Bosis. He’s the one to look for who’s been very active in that work and talks about it with great passion for the spiritual experience preparation for dying.

Sam Believ (31:06.897)

You mentioned women elders and when you sort of went into the psychedelic underground, why have you chosen to interview women specifically?

Rachel Harris (31:18.87)

Well, you know, since I really come from my own personal relationship with a plant spirit, not that I understand this, but clearly this is my own deep experience, I felt that the women had more intimate relationships with the medicines. And I had interviewed a couple of the men.

And, you know, one of the men said, you’re right to just interview women. They know more about suffering than the men do, partly because they’ve had their periods most of their lives. And I thought, well, that’s a really interesting, um, perspective. I hadn’t really thought of. But he was, he, he said, the women are less likely to get in between the person and the medicine, which is, I don’t know if you know that phrase, but they’re less likely to get in the way of the.

clients own relationship to the medicine. So, you know, I did a study that was published in a journal of psychoactive drugs in 2012, where I interviewed people who had at least one ayahuasca experience in North America. And in preparation for doing that data collection, I talked to one of the elders. This is even before I…

Sam Believ (32:18.877)

Mm-hmm.

Rachel Harris (32:42.826)

had a dream about the swimming in the sacred book. And I asked her, what should I include in the interview? And she said, ask them, do you have an ongoing relationship with the spirit of ayahuasca? Now that came from a woman elder, and that’s the kind of sensitivity to an ongoing relation. And 80% of the people I interviewed said, no, 75%.

said yes, they had an ongoing relationship where they could connect to the spirit of ayahuasca outside of ceremony, just through dreams, through meditation, just being quiet, just asking for help. It was a connection that was permanent basically. And that’s where the title of the book comes from, Listening to Ayahuasca. That was my experience as well, where I heard

instructions, literally heard a voice.

Sam Believ (33:48.545)

Yeah.

Rachel Harris (33:50.551)

So that’s what led to the women.

Sam Believ (33:54.837)

I understand what it is you’re describing with the connection to the spirit.

You know, I drank ayahuasca with both tithes, which are male shamans and maimas, which are female shamans. I had great experience with female shamans as well. It’s one thing I can definitely say about women is women know more about emotions naturally. They’re just more in tune with those kinds of things. And if my wife would be a good example,

Sam Believ (34:32.303)

before she ever tried ayahuasca she had this talent to know who is a good person and who is not which is which is kind of shamanic in itself it’s very interesting so I definitely I definitely agree that there’s some special connection and you know ayahuasca being a feminine spirit as it says you know normally described as a grandmother and that’s how it feels lots of times so I think it kind of makes sense

Talking about guides and ceremony or shamans, what do you think is the biggest distinction or what’s the difference in between, let’s say, a therapist that gives you psychedelics and an actual guide and what is the role of a guide in ceremony from your point of view?

Rachel Harris (35:20.534)

Yeah, let me just say something. I was on a panel with Jeremy Narby and he very clearly corrected me that there are a number of tribes that consider ayahuasca a grandfather ayahuasca. So, Jeremy knows and I just didn’t know about those tribes but in North America, the colloquial is grandmother ayahuasca but Jeremy takes offense at that.

that it certainly is considered a masculine spirit in many situations. And I recommend his recent book on plant teachers, where he interviews a shaman, and there’s this wonderful description of the relationship with plant teachers and the spirits of the plants. It’s a small book and it’s mostly an interview and it’s an important contribution. Now I forget your question.

Sam Believ (36:19.225)

It was about guide versus therapist and what role of the guide.

Rachel Harris (36:19.27)

because I wanted to make that correction. Oh, how is it different? You know, the big difference is, yeah, you know, I just wrote, I’m presenting at Harvard Divinity School this Saturday, and so I just wrote a paper and I quoted Bessel van der Kolk, who’s the trauma psychiatrist from Boston. And lo and behold, he’s been very involved in psychedelics since the 60s.

And he basically said therapists should say very little during the ceremonies. They should, I think he says something, he plays a tape of a ceremony therapy session. And he says, the therapists say nothing that’s worthwhile or important. They’re mostly saying, uh-huh, I understand. Yeah. Go with that. I mean, it’s very, very little. And

You know, therapists are not trained to keep their mouth shut. So this is a whole different way of being. And, uh, it’s very different from the prep sessions and the, the post-ceremony sessions. So I really don’t think therapists are actually needed during the ceremony. I don’t have any problem with the women elders, not being therapists. Um, it’s really the guide. What you want is a guide who has a lineage and supervision.

and lots and lots of experience. So that they know intuitively from their own experience how to follow the person in their navigation. After the ceremony, when it comes to integration, then I think that’s about therapy. And this business of one ayahuasca session is worth 10 years of therapy. I don’t buy that.

There are plenty of people who have had lots of ayahuasca ceremonies who are still jerks, men and women. I don’t want to name names, but I’m sure everyone can think of someone. So I had one guy, early 40s, he said he believed that until after years of drinking ayahuasca, he realized his personal relationships were screwed up as they’d always been. And so he went to a therapist.

Rachel Harris (38:43.366)

And he said, now I’m really working on my relationships. I’m making great progress. I think the ayahuasca experience helped me, but I needed the therapy to really clean up how I am in relationships. So I think, you know, this is one person’s testimonial, but I think therapy makes a big difference. So it’s the post-ceremony sessions that a therapist is needed.

Sam Believ (39:10.817)

I came up with an analogy, maybe you will like it, but it definitely suits the story you just described and many others that come through our doors. Therapy is like, if you take an analogy of like coal mining, you know, or mining or digging a cave, therapy is a pickaxe and you’re going slowly, but it’s in a very organized manner. Yeah.

Rachel Harris (39:33.057)

A pickaxe.

Sam Believ (39:35.649)

an organized matter and you can make a nice neat tunnel but it’s very slow. Ayahuasca or other strong mega doses of psychedelics is a dynamite and you make a big explosion and then it’s a little messy so then once again take a pickaxe take a shovel and clear it out so this is the integration or the therapy from my perspective but if you just keep exploding dynamite and turning this

rubble into powder it’s not going to make it any better. So I personally believe that the psychedelics, responsible use of psychedelics followed up by therapy or integration is a match made in heaven because one or another are great but not complete. So that’s what I’ve been observing and obviously I’m not a therapist and but we try and do our best in providing people with

container to actually integrate and process the information they got out of their experiences. Something you mentioned that, you know, it’s about the flow of information when you get a therapist and he’s talking in the therapy, sorry, together with psychedelics, right? It’s you’re in such a suggestible state that any wrong word can put a person in a totally different trajectory. So

Rachel Harris (40:51.863)

Yes.

Sam Believ (40:55.841)

We’re very conscious of that. For example, here at Lawyra, we always say the flow information should be from the medicine to the people and then to facilitators. And all we need to do is teach them how to navigate that space, but not teach them or fill them up with some kind of philosophy or belief system, because it will stick 100%. If you use a certain terminology, then people get…

get into that, that’s those states. So yeah, I think I’m talking more than you do. So it’s not nice. Let’s go back to.

Rachel Harris (41:36.494)

I actually like the mining example. I think that’s pretty good.

Sam Believ (41:42.233)

Well, one of my talents, and I don’t have many, is coming up with analogies. Yeah, so all of those guides you interview, does any of them, so for people to get the little sort of preview into your book and get interested, can you tell maybe a story or tell us about one of the guides that comes to mind that maybe will want people to buy the book and read it?

Rachel Harris (41:48.622)

analogies.

Rachel Harris (42:18.001)

You know…

Rachel Harris (42:22.786)

They pretty much have similar positions on, and I think you stated this earlier, that if somebody’s coming to them, and they said they’re now getting phone calls where people sort of wanna order up a mystical experience. I wanna come and do a session with you and I wanna have a mystical experience. Can you guarantee that? So they have to deal with these kinds of phone calls. But what they say is if someone is returning, wanting to return again and again,

for the experience, for the sensational experience, that they don’t work with them. What they’re looking for is that the person is transformed in their life. And if they don’t see that beginning to happen, they don’t continue to work with them just for the sensation seeking of psychedelic realms. So they’re looking for not symptom reduction, the way the research…

teams are looking for psychiatric symptom reduction. They’re looking for a much broader perspective of how does the person relate to their life? What are they bringing back into their community to contribute? How have they changed in terms of their values and priorities? So they’re looking for bigger changes. It’s a much broader perspective about how the person

is in their life. And it’s to the extent of, it’s, and I had a quote from Anne Shulgin, who was certainly one of the elders, but not, she’s Sasha Shulgin’s wife. I mean, these people are both dead now, but these are luminaries in psychiatric, in psychedelic history. And Anne said, you know, to say yes to everything, to be able to meet everything that happens in life.

good and bad, and to say yes to it. So a certain kind of Buddhist equanimity, how to accept what happens in life equally, whether it’s wonderful or really challenging, that’s a transformation in perspective. That’s a different way of being in your life. So the underground women were looking for those kinds of existential changes in the person.

Rachel Harris (44:52.094)

and how they relate to life.

Sam Believ (44:58.257)

So I had to mute my microphone as it got a little noisy here. When you talk a lot about, obviously, this disconnect in between the traditional research world and new upcoming ways to do healing with psychedelics and the old underground approach to it. So do you have any ideas about how we can mend this shift or maybe?

How can we marry the two worlds together?

Rachel Harris (45:31.874)

Well, I think the research teams should have consulted with the elders and they still can. The research teams could connect with the elders and interview them and give them more of a voice in developing new studies. So I think that’s one thing that could happen. But you know, the research teams are mostly men. And

and they’re not inclined to ask the women for help when they really should. So I think, I don’t know how to mend this because so much is happening so quickly. And I know a handful of people who are finding their own way to elders in the community and seeking mentorship.

And so that’s what I look for. And I did an interview with someone just the other day who has really worked hard on herself with medicines and she’s been in different kind of therapeutic training programs and she’s really diving in deep. And I only know a handful of women who are working like that. A lot of the therapists…

are doing a one or two week training program with ketamine maybe, or they’re doing an online longer program with psychedelics, but they’re not really getting the experience they need. So I would really say to the therapists working in psychedelic assisted therapy, one way to bridge is to get more experience and to look for people in your community who

20 years or more and ask for consultation and mentorship.

Sam Believ (47:32.481)

Definitely and researchers.

Rachel Harris (47:33.846)

And you know what, because I’m retired now, but I spent most of my career as a licensed psychologist and a therapist. And I have to say, I think this is kind of, the therapists have an inflated sense of, well, I’m a licensed therapist, I can do this work. And legally they can do the integration work, but they don’t really understand what they’re working with. And I think…

I really recommend more experience and more study with the medicines.

Sam Believ (48:10.621)

So if any of the researchers are listening, listen up.

Rachel Harris (48:15.626)

I don’t think they’re listening. I’m sorry, Sam. I can pretty much assure you they’re not listening.

Sam Believ (48:21.457)

Well, you know, universe works in funny ways. You never know. Maybe I’ll make a short video and they will find it in their, in their Instagram. But if they are listening, you know, pay attention, you know, let’s find balance. There’s, there’s use in both. And you talk a lot about sort of underground versus the modern approach, but also, let’s not forget the traditional approach because

Rachel Harris (48:26.986)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (48:49.761)

There’s been tribes and people who worked on psychedelic medicines for thousands of years. And they also are being ignored because they think that they’re only now being discovered. But like what about all this work that has been done for generations and generations? We should listen to, everyone should listen to everyone. There is merit to.

new technologies and new research and we need it but there’s also merit to both practical experience of psychedelic underground and also the traditional shamanistic lineages and yeah we need to find a way to bring it all together in a beautiful union.

Rachel Harris (49:34.782)

Well, I can give you a story of a failure. And that is that there was an attempt, there was an interest in doing an ayahuasca study using indigenous shaman. And, you know, the problem is the medicines are always different. Every brew of ayahuasca is different. So how do you get it standardized? And so the way the researchers in Spain, and Brazil have done it is they freeze dried.

ayahuasca so they have a standard capsule. So when the shaman realized that the ayahuasca was going to be in the form of freeze-dried ayahuasca taken in a capsule form, they said they wouldn’t do the study. The spirit is not in those capsules. So you see the different perspectives from the two different sides. There’s a big gulf. And so much about

what the indigenous shaman do is outside the Western cosmology. As Westerners, it’s very hard for us to understand how the Ikaros are channeling healing and how to be trained to do that. I mean, the indigenous shaman really have a totally different cosmology.

So there really is a big gap, you know, and…

Rachel Harris (51:10.226)

You know, what I would say to people interested in ayahuasca is find, find someone, find an indigenous shaman who’s probably from a family of shamans or who’s grown up in that world. And, and the healing potential is inexplicable. I mean, I don’t understand how it works and it’s amazing. And I’ve, I can say like many people,

that I’ve really benefited from working with initiated indigenous shamans.

Sam Believ (51:47.293)

Well, you’ve just described my shaman because he’s exactly those things. And yeah, we were able to deliver this healing to lots of people, which is very exciting. And yeah, he’s Colombian. Actually, their tribe is 50% in Colombia, 50% in Ecuador, but he just happened to be ended up on a Colombian side.

Rachel Harris (52:11.519)

Mm-hmm.

Sam Believ (52:11.641)

So very similar probably to what you have experienced in Costa Rica. I’m an optimist, you know, I do believe that the world is changing and maybe 10 years from now, things might be different and we will get better and more mindful research or, you know, I think that, you know, the spirit and the, the higher, higher consciousness, something will, will guide us and figure it out, you know, and sometimes it comes through.

through people and their own journeys with the medicine, but the change is happening. It’s starting, it starts to get perceived and plant medicines is one of the ways that the change comes from. So I’m very hopeful. Rachel, what would your, you know, this interview is coming, we’re starting to wrap up. So what would your…

suggestions be to people. Any parting words, any recommendations?

Rachel Harris (53:15.662)

Well, you know, I mean, obviously I’m enthusiastic. I have to sort of have to watch how enthusiastic I am. And I have to confess the advice I just gave to therapists is really illegal advice. When I say get more experience, I am saying to therapists go out and use illegal drugs. I mean, it’s an awkward position to be in, but I also wanna take a minute and just say there are real risks. And you mentioned earlier,

You know, you don’t want to traumatize people by overloading them in an ayahuasca ceremony. And this is about dosage. And people can be harmed with any of these medicines. And really with any pharmacological medicines, there are adverse effects. But one of the things I would say is, I had a phone call.

years ago from a woman who had been with a traveling indigenous shaman and after the first night she was highly anxious and really scared about how anxious she was and The shaman said well, you know come to this the net the ceremony the next night That’s that she was harmed that was she should have stopped

So be very careful about if you’re in trouble after ceremony. Don’t necessarily go do another one, even though that is often the advice. Sometimes you just have to stop. And it’s Jules Evans. If you look him up, he’s the one who’s writing about adverse effects. That there are people and you know, when I talk to people who have been in this psychedelic community all their lives 40, 50 years.

They all know someone who never came back quite right and whose life was changed. So this is a really serious kind of thing. So this is part of why I say to people, be very careful that harm can happen. And you’re right, people can be traumatized by a psychedelic session. And I’ve seen a number of people like that where it really has taken them years to recover and get their life back on track. And some people don’t recover.

Rachel Harris (55:39.518)

and they’re just not quite the same. So, you know, I’m ending with maybe a little downside, but a balance to some of my own personal natural enthusiasm.

Sam Believ (55:51.525)

No, it’s not, it’s not a, it’s very important to mention that. And I think it’s a great piece of information. I just received the message today from one of our previous customers, or as we like to call them, patients. And he said he went to some other place and they gave them more medicine and he loved it and had the mystical experience and stuff like that. And…

He sort of suggested to me that we should give people more medicine. The issue is that it has to be very responsible because for let’s say any additional 10% more mystical experiences induced per group, you will then start getting another 10% on the, on the bottom side of the group that, that go too far and get traumatized. And then when they go back home, they, they try to fall asleep and they feel like they’re in ayahuasca again.

So I understand that very well. And it’s a very difficult thing to navigate as a facilitator because you have people who want more but they don’t really know what they, they don’t understand what they want. It’s kind of like you have a sick person coming to ER and you’re a doctor and they tell you, give me two ccs of such and such drug. That’s just not how it works. You come.

Rachel Harris (57:05.826)

That’s correct.

Rachel Harris (57:16.588)

No.

Sam Believ (57:17.485)

and you get what is given to you by somebody who knows what they’re doing. So we, the amount of times I say word patience and preparation, the first 24 hours when people just arrive here is probably like 50 times. And then another 10 times it’s said by our shaman because patience, the healing will come. It’s a lot of times it’s very subtle. People want to see visions, but it’s not about visions. It’s about so much more than that.

So it’s, I understand what you’re saying and I completely agree with you. We gotta be very careful. We gotta ground ourselves in tradition, trust, have a lot of patience and good things will come. So yeah, don’t just go away taking, go around taking huge doses of stuff you’re not sure about. So this is very important. Thank you. Thank you for mentioning it.

Rachel Harris (58:11.83)

And I also want to say in some indigenous tribes, the patients don’t drink the ayahuasca, the shaman drinks. So it’s not about the drug.

And people need to, it’s a really different way of understanding how this works.

Sam Believ (58:27.517)

Well, uh…

Sam Believ (58:34.333)

this would be taking it to the next level. I can imagine the next group comes over and we just tell them, sorry guys, you’re not drinking, only Shaman is gonna drink. So just sit around. So yeah, we gotta find the balance. Rachel, where can listeners find more about you? Where can they find and purchase your book, Swimming in the Sacred?

Rachel Harris (58:43.97)

Hehehe

Rachel Harris (58:57.258)

Well, you know, it’s on it’s on Amazon, of course. And I have websites for each book, the listening to ayahuasca.com and swimming in the sacred.com and they can email me through those websites.

Sam Believ (59:14.393)

Rachel, thank you so much for spending time here with us. I think it was really interesting. I learned something today. Guys, you’re listening to ayah Please leave us a like and subscribe to us wherever it is you’re listening to this episode.

Nothing in this episode is medical advice, so it’s for informational and educational purposes only.

Rachel Harris (59:46.986)

Thank you, Sam.

Sam Believ (59:48.606)

Thank you.

In this episode of AyahuascaPodcast.com host Sam Believ has a conversation with Danielle Nova on the topics of Addiction Recovery and psychedelics.

We touch upon subjects of addiction recovery, drawbacks of 12 step program, role your beliefs play in your addiction recovery process, how Ayahuasca can help, microdosing vs normal dosage and more.

Find more about Danielle here

https://campsite.bio/connectwithd?fbclid=PAAabOIImu2XghzM4SbIbjq_QAvwu9t24pdmsdYfUSc4-jrvQz9MARKGcMcEc

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:01.243)

Hi guys and welcome to ayahuascapodcast .com as always with you the host Sambiliyev. Today we’re interviewing Danielle Nova. She is executive director of San Francisco Psychedelic Society. She is a founder of Psychedelic Recovery, co -founder of Metamorphosis Medicines. She’s a transformational guide and she counsels people through addiction recovery and psychedelic integration. Danielle, welcome to the podcast.

Danielle Nova (00:30.062)

Thank you so much, Sam. I’m honored to be here. Really appreciate the invite.

Sam Believ (00:35.647)

Daniel, the topic for today of course will be the addiction recovery and the role psychedelics play in it. But before we talk about the topic in general, I think it would make sense to start with yourself a bit about your story, your own story of recovery and the role that psychedelics and ayahuasca played in it.

Danielle Nova (00:58.222)

Amazing, yeah, so I, where do I begin? I spent most of my upbringing ever since I was 11 years old running away from myself, running away from my life, running away from my emotions that developed into drug addiction in my early teenage years. It started with cannabis and alcohol and that led to cocaine.

and methamphetamine and opioids. And I was actually quite the psychedelic advocate in high school. I was using MDMA and really big in the rave scene, taking mushrooms and trying to get other people around me to get interested in psychedelics. During that time, I experienced several friends who took their own lives in high school, which created a spiritual awakening for me. I started viewing life differently and questioning the nature of reality and

feeling quite separate from my peers to have that experience at such a young age and trying to understand what is life, what is death, why are we here? And that the experiences that I had with the anxiety and depression led me to outsourcing my power. And my parents sent me to a psychiatrist and I went on psychological pharmaceutical drugs at…

16 years old. And by the time I was graduating high school, I was on like five or six different medications for anxiety, depression, PTSD. And I spent most of the rest of 12 years dependent on psychiatric drugs, prescribed hundreds of psychiatric drugs in and out of eight different rehabs. I got very addicted to opioids. I was addicted to OxyContin for six years and then Suboxone. I dabbled in heroin.

and really, really suffered. I was basically a complete slave to addiction for 15 years. And yeah, finally woke up one day and realized that all these drugs that I was taking to help myself were actually hurting me. And I wanted to see what life was like off of all these medications. And I started healing myself.

Sam Believ (03:18.587)

So first of all, congratulations and I’m really happy for you and I’m happy you, you know, beat your addiction. You obviously look great and you do great stuff with your life. What was your process of recovery and what role psychedelics played in it?

Danielle Nova (03:40.558)

It was a long process of suffering. And once I decided to come off of the medications, I really didn’t have a lot of support. My family did not want me to come off of medications. They were scared for me. The doctor had no idea how to get someone off of medications either. I was the first patient to ever come off of any of these medications. And so I slowly started to titrate off of, I was on five medications at that time.

I slowly started to titrate off of them. It took me years and I ended up having to cold turkey two of them, which is extremely dangerous, especially with benzodiazepines. You can die from that. And that caused something called protracted withdrawal syndrome, where I was basically withdrawing from drugs for acutely for over 18 months. I lost my ability to talk, walk, function. I, I,

I couldn’t speak, I couldn’t take care of myself, I couldn’t do basic things like my laundry or make food for myself. I was completely debilitated. And around nine months in, a friend invited me into an ayahuasca ceremony and I was suicidally depressed. Like I almost died from coming off of all these medications. I was having, I had a seizure and I just said, I have nothing to lose. Let’s see if this helps me. And after that first ceremony,

With ayahuasca, it created more withdrawal for me in the ceremony itself. It was kind of like turning the knob up on the radio dial in terms of the intensity of the withdrawal process, but it expedited my healing process for me. And after that first ceremony, I felt like faith that I could heal myself and that I was going to get better. And ayahuasca said, I’m going to show you a new way. And I felt…

better after that first ceremony. It didn’t heal me. You know, I’m such an advocate for saying, for teaching people that it’s just not one experience, right? It’s a process of change and transformation. But that first night really showed me that I can do this and I can live life free from addiction. And so I started working with ayahuasca every month for over a year and it completely transformed my life. It brought…

Danielle Nova (06:03.694)

She brought me back to my purpose on this planet, why I’m here. She helped me heal my withdrawal syndrome that I was dealing with. Then I started working with microdosing of mushrooms that really helped me get out of the house. I was quite agoraphobic at the time. It was hard for me to even leave the house and mushrooms started to bring me out of my comfort zone and help me heal my brain. And I worked with iboga at one point.

which was very detoxifying, just like the ayahuasca, lots of purging. I was toxic, taking hundreds of medications, millions of pills. That made my body extremely toxic, and I had a lot to let go of, and a lot of belief systems, and suffering to let go of. It was very powerful and transformative for me, not just definitely on a spiritual level, but also a physiological level.

And that’s what I feel so excited about. Ayahuasca has the potential to physiologically help people heal withdrawals from getting off of these medications because there’s millions of people on medications. My story is not unique. I’m unique in the fact that I was able to get off of them and use psychedelics to support that process.

Sam Believ (07:20.155)

Well, once again, congratulations and being strong enough to sort of just plow through for nine months by yourself without even help of ayahuasca is very impressive. And yeah, with ayahuasca it is like that when there is some kind of pain before it gets better, it gets worse. So I can imagine how it just brought it all up and made it even.

even stronger. You described that detoxing or sort of getting off the medical. So first of all, you said that you’ve been prescribed everything there was and nothing was helping. And then they told you to smoke cigarettes and drink coffee. Can you tell us that story?

Danielle Nova (08:08.896)

Yeah, I tried every medication possible. I was prescribed, I tried so many different antidepressants. I’ve tried every anti -anxiety medication. So many mood stabilizing medications, was on Adderall, was on sleeping medications. Put on, I remember when I came off of the opioids, my addiction to OxyContin,

I was put on 15 medications just to get off of the opioids, you know, for restless leg syndrome and all these ways that they do medication assisted detoxes basically. And I remember suffering so much with my mental health and I could hardly function. And I went to my psychiatrist and I asked him, you know, do you have any other medications that I can try? These aren’t working. And he said, well, no.

I’ve prescribed you all the medications. Like I don’t have any other medications. Why don’t you smoke more cigarettes or drink more coffee? And at that point, it was really a spiritual message that this person can’t help me and that the medications can’t help me. And maybe it’s not the medications that I need to feel better. Maybe it’s coming off of them. And so that was a big turning point in my recovery journey to.

lose complete faith in the pharmaceutical paradigm that I was subscribing to and take my power back.

Sam Believ (09:44.667)

It’s interesting that I don’t really know exactly what were the symptoms, but you described being very spiritual when you were younger. And a lot of times spirituality is confused with mental disease. Like if somebody says, you know, they see stuff or feel stuff, even if it’s true, nobody cares. They just think maybe you’re schizophrenic or something like that. Have you experienced that sort of, was that the part of the issue?

Danielle Nova (10:14.51)

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think that, you know, I really identify with being an indigo child or an indigo adult. And the indigo paradigm is that we’re highly sensitive, highly spiritual, very intuitive. We feel a lot. And oftentimes that’s a theme with people that have gone through addiction is that they feel a lot and they’re very sensitive. And…

We have all been raised in a society that doesn’t support feeling. It’s a society that the current predominant paradigm is to suppress your feelings, or if that you feel a lot, it’s too much because we weren’t raised to process our emotions. I know that my parents never taught me how to sit with my emotions and process my emotions. I was always too sensitive or too much. And my grandparents certainly…

don’t even know what it means to process emotions, I’ve asked my grandmother. And that’s just, you know, how it’s been passed down. And so we’re really the first generation to acknowledge that we have feelings and to learn how to feel safe in processing them. And so that was the fact that I was feeling so much and so awakened in the world was looked at as there’s something wrong with you and you need to be controlled and medicated.

because they didn’t know how to handle me, basically. And now I understand what it is, but back then I really internalized it as there was something wrong with me and believed in all these mental illness labels that they have to give you in order to prescribe you medications. And it’s completely false, you know, from my experience. And other people might identify with, you know, having anxiety and depression and bipolar and whatever these labels that they want to subscribe to.

But at the core of it, I really think it’s a highly intuitive, highly sensitive being that also has underlying trauma. And that trauma can manifest in mood dysregulation and risky behavior or addictive behavior because it’s an attempt to solve the underlying issue. It’s an attempt to solve the problem.

Sam Believ (12:22.907)

Well, I can imagine if you’re a sensitive child and you live in a world where there’s a lot of pain around, then obviously your experience is not going to be the most blissful. And then if you see it as a disease, then you’re going to start taking medications and nothing is going to help. You mentioned the labels and can you talk a little bit about the role those belief systems play in addiction?

Danielle Nova (12:50.73)

Absolutely. I’m really passionate about this because I came from a framework, especially going to all these rehabs and treatment centers where you have to admit that you’re an addict. I remember the first rehab I went to, they had me take a test and the test came out that I was a cocaine addict and I wasn’t a cocaine addict at that time, but I started believing it.

and really identifying with, oh, I’m gonna be an addict for the rest of my life. And I remember making new friends in the 12 -step program and being like congratulated for claiming that identity. The two words, I am, as you know, are the most powerful statements possible because we continue to program our consciousness to believe these things about ourselves. So for so long, I believed that I am an addict and I was told I was gonna be an addict for the rest of my life.

And I believed that I had this disease of addiction and that it was something that was going to be with me for the rest of my life. Now I understand that that’s not true and that my identity is not an addict. I don’t believe that I’m an addict. I don’t believe I’m gonna be an addict for the rest of my life. I don’t believe that I am what happened to me. And I think that’s something that can happen is so much of our identity gets wrapped around in.

the trauma that we’ve been through or the amount of clean or recovery time that we have, but we are so much more than that. And that’s what psychedelics can really teach us is that process of unlearning, you know, and coming home to the soul. As we know with ayahuasca, it’s such an ego dissolving medicine. You know, she doesn’t care about these identities that we give ourselves. She teaches us to come home, the vine of the soul, to come home to the soul of who we are at the soul level, beyond all these identities, because really the suffering is in the identities.

And I feel so passionate about teaching people that they, even though they might be identifying with some identity right now, it’s not fixed. The identities can change. And potentially the identities and the labels that we give ourselves are actually keeping us in the paradigm of sick consciousness that we don’t want to be for ourselves anymore. And that we can liberate ourselves. And a lot of that liberation comes from the identity.

Danielle Nova (15:10.894)

that we attach ourselves to.

Sam Believ (15:14.619)

That’s, those are all very great words. I totally agree. So you overcame your own addiction and now I know you’re helping others. For those who are listening, can you maybe outline how the process looks like? How long does it take? What are the steps and what is, how is your approach different?

because I believe you work with what’s called trauma informed approach.

Danielle Nova (15:46.062)

That’s right, exactly. Well, I’m currently developing the framework. I’ve taken my clients, my one -on -one clients through this process and I wish I could say exactly how long it’s going to take or what it’s going to be like for each person. As it’s so personalized, as you know, everyone’s coming to this with different background and different addictions. Sometimes it’s substance addictions, sometimes it’s…

straight substance addiction to street drugs or substance addiction to medications or even addictions to behaviors. But the most important starting step is someone that wants to change. And that the desire for change is more powerful than any psychedelic medicine themselves. And maybe some people aren’t ready. I know I wasn’t for a long time and it took me a while to get ready. I wasn’t done. I had more learning to do with addiction. And I am curious about,

psychedelics potentially helping people become more ready. It could encourage people in that process of change. So, you know, there’s different levels in which we might introduce the psychedelic medicines, but mostly I would say having that desire for change is the number one starting step. You might not know what’s causing your addiction, but it’s important to have that desire that you’re willing to do whatever it takes to heal. Then the next step would be

to set up a support system, to have people around you that are really going to support you in this process. That’s super important. Whether it’s a community, we have our psychedelic recovery community, your family support, you know, working with a practitioner, a coach, a guide, having some type of support system is really important. And then committing to a program or process. And I encourage people to commit to either a month,

or a year of saying, okay, I’m gonna see what this is like and give myself a year to transform. And because it’s not an overnight process, it wasn’t that for me. It was months and years of suffering and healing, really, that got me to where I am now and I’m still healing. It’s a process that takes time, but having that commitment is super important. And then taking a look at your life and getting really real and saying, what is not working?

Danielle Nova (18:07.022)

You know, like I can’t do that for someone. It has to come from that person from within. And for me, it was, I am a slave to addiction. These medications are not working for me. And I had to set up a plan and a process to get off of them. So, you know, depending on what substance or behavior someone’s doing, there’s different approaches to addiction recovery. For some people, it might be a slow titration process. And especially for medications, that’s really important that people titrate slowly.

If it’s a substance addiction, maybe someone wants to slowly come off of heroin. Maybe someone just needs to interrupt that process, you know, very abruptly. I don’t know what’s going to be, you know, people might have to try different approaches, but make sure that the approach in which you’re trying is appropriate for the substance that you’re taking. And especially if you’re getting off medications, you need to have the support of a doctor to help you come off of them. And one that’s going to support you in doing that. And…

And you know, for certain addictions, psychedelics are only appropriate after you’ve been off of the substance for a certain amount of time. So it’s important to understand any type of contraindications that might be at play and commit to facing your shadows. Commit to the darkness. Unless we move through the darkness, we’re going to be forever enslaved by it.

And so much, you know, for me, addiction wasn’t just around removing the substance addiction, because ultimately what the research shows, it’s not about the substance being addictive. It’s about the underlying issues that we’re running away from. And that’s why we soothe ourselves with substances or behaviors. And so making sure that you’re ready to start to face the things that you’ve been running away from. For me, it was underlying trauma. It was…

emotions, it was disconnection, self -sabotage from myself, that I have to face all of that in the recovery process. And I know that I can. I know that there’s so much more freedom in facing that than running away from that. But people have to be ready for that. And it’s probably going to be a process of unwinding and unlearning. But give yourself at least, I think, a year to really commit to that process. And there’s so many more nuances within

Danielle Nova (20:29.934)

within this framework, but a lot of it is around once you start your healing process, especially with psychedelics, identifying the beliefs that you have around yourself and the relationship that you have with yourself. For me, I recognize that I hated myself for so long. I did not love myself. And the process of healing addiction is falling back in love with yourself and giving to yourself the love and care that you desire, that you were running away from. And…

For a lot of people going through addiction, they feel a void, and it’s really the void of the divine. It’s the void of God. It’s the void of us. I believe we are a fractal of the divine, and we’re trying to fill that void with substances when really it’s us that we’re seeking. We are the ones we’ve been waiting for. We are the love we’ve been seeking, and healing addiction is about giving that to ourselves.

Sam Believ (21:23.899)

Yeah, the healing will always come from within. You mentioned something about people who are quitting substances and they want to start working with psychedelics. For example, if somebody is ready and they have been sober for a while, a lot of times people like this, whether it’s alcohol or other substances, they’re very suspicious of psychedelics.

regarding seeing them as just some other drugs and then being worried about getting addicted to it. So what would you tell someone who’s afraid to be, to get addicted to ayahuasca for example, and what is your language in sort of defining the difference between medicines and drugs?

Danielle Nova (22:08.654)

I think, well, first of all, it’s very common, especially in people that have been previously addicted to substances to be concerned about that. And that shows a high level of care for your recovery journey. So I really honor that. And for me, I believe that, and this is what I’ve been taught by the natives, that any substance can be abused. It’s all about your relationship with it.

and your intentions behind it. And for me, I had an irreverent relationship with the medications I was taking. I didn’t have any intention behind it. I was giving my power away. I wanted them to fix me and heal me. You could still bring that energy to ayahuasca. You could still try to escape yourself with ayahuasca. The medicine will definitely probably won’t let you do that. But it’s so important to come to the medicine, a humble student, and with the intention that…

I’m using this as a tool for metamorphosis. I’m using this as a tool for transformation. I’m using this as a tool to learn and teach and heal and to be in the right relationship with it. To not come to the psychedelics to abuse them or escape yourself with them or to become, you know, to create a habit around it, but to really use it as an opportunity to redefine your relationship with substances. And, um, it,

And that takes a certain level of integrity in the addiction recovery process. Some people might not have that, you know, some people might start abusing psychedelics. I’ve seen it happen a lot. It is possible, you know, they’re not immune from being abused. So it’s really important to being in right relationship with them and, you know, come with and making sure you’re doing the integration work, especially giving space after the ceremonies, using them to heal and transform your life and not.

just going back into old patterns or behaviors or trying to give yourself excuses. A lot of psychedelics are non -addictive in their signatures like ayahuasca, psilocybin mushrooms, aminida muscaria, iboga. They tend to be more anti -addictive, especially when it comes to the research studies around them. And they can even be interrupters for addiction, which is so exciting that they can literally interrupt that process of addiction. And I believe that a lot of that happens through,

Danielle Nova (24:32.078)

these neural pathways. Like addiction is such a deeply ingrained neural pathway. If you do something over and over again, you’re going to become addicted to something, right? It’s like the definition of a disease model is that it changes your brain. And, you know, if you take a substance every single day, it’s going to create a neural pathway. And what’s so excited about psychedelics is that they can actually interrupt these neural pathways, and you can create new ones and learn how to live.

free of substances, which is incredibly powerful for someone that has spent most of their life addicted to substances. But it takes work, and it takes intention and integrity, you know, and being really real with yourself around how you’re using these substances.

Sam Believ (25:17.435)

Yeah, very well explained. Yeah, regarding getting addicted to ayahuasca, I can’t really imagine somebody, you know, under the bridge in the streets of a big city drinking ayahuasca and like throwing up.

Danielle Nova (25:28.59)

true.

Sam Believ (25:31.227)

It’s, I’ve never heard about anyone getting addicted to ayahuasca. However, I’ve seen people that come to it over and over again and get the same information, maybe get a temporary relief, but never really do the homework. And it’s nice how self -guiding the medicines are. When, when you do that, you then notice that you come back to the medicine too quick and it tells you like,

you haven’t done the homework and it gives you a terrible trip, you know, the sort of tough love. Have you noticed that maybe in your own experience or?

Danielle Nova (26:06.382)

Oh yeah, exactly. No one’s going to get addicted to ayahuasca, but they, you know, I’ve seen people that are habitually going to ceremony many times a month, but not doing any of the integration work and not really changing anything in their lives. And I think that’s such an important component, you know, to the ayahuasca experience. And from what the research shows around neuroplasticity and neurogenesis is that,

Yes, psychedelics like ayahuasca can open up these new neural pathways, create new connections in the brain, but neuroplasticity in and of itself is inherently neutral. So it can be negatively influenced or positively influenced. Like let’s say after ceremony, if I went immediately back to chain smoking cigarettes and on my phone 24 hours a day, it’s going to ingrain these neural pathways even deeper for us. And I remember,

One time in my recovery journey after doing ayahuasca, I did ketamine the next day. And I remember ayahuasca smacking me in the face. I literally felt like I got smacked in the face from that experience. She really gave me a rough time in my integration process. Like, what are you doing? You know, this is not, this is not respecting the medicine. And, you know, we’re dealing with, as you know,

another consciousness. Like it’s a spirit. Ayahuasca is a spirit. We’re welcoming in the spirit of Ayahuasca, this consciousness, this plant consciousness into our body. As Dennis McKenna says, he believes that the plants want to experience our consciousness just as much as we want to experience the consciousness of the plant. And so when we’re inviting the plant consciousness into us, it’s going to keep working with us and communicating with us and sometimes punishing us, you know? So it’s important that we respect the medicine.

respect the teachings of it, especially in that integration process.

Sam Believ (28:05.435)

Beautiful what you just said is exactly what I tell groups before they go home, you know, what are you going to do with this newly discovered flexibility? And if somebody goes back after the retreat in that open state and go visit a toxic relative or start watching news or scrolling through their phone, it will wreck you because this flexibility, it can be used in the wrong way.

And ayahuasca is a very strict mother sometimes and it’s beautiful observing how it works. So we talk about ayahuasca and taking big doses of, normal doses of medicines. What about microdosing? I know you’re a big fan of microdosing.

Danielle Nova (28:53.422)

I am. I’m such a big fan of microdosing. It has its role, you know, and I think it’s a helpful maintenance tool, especially for people that are wanting that maintenance support. It can be, you know, traditionally a lot of people are microdosing with psilocybin, with LSD. Some people are microdosing with Amanita muscaria, ayahuasca, with the vine itself.

A lot of my experience has been with microdosing with psilocybin and LSD, and especially recovering my brain from being on all these medications. It really helped me get my brain back online and helped me, allowed me to think clearly, allowed me to be able to function. And, you know, microdosing is a powerful tool for, it can be a powerful tool for addiction, interruption.

for overall well -being and balance. It’s a non -specific amplifier, so it’s definitely gonna amplify underlying challenges that people might be experiencing or emotions and bring them to the surface to be healed. And it’s a powerful tool and an ally that, you know, we like to say microdosing is like an electric bike. You still have to pedal and do the work, but the microdosing is gonna accelerate your process for you.

And it’s, yeah, I’m such a big advocate for microdosing. It’s such a powerful tool, especially a maintenance tool for people that are in addiction recovery.

Sam Believ (30:25.019)

That’s a great analogy about the electric bike. I like that. I’m going to use it. Sometimes when people are on antidepressants and they want to come to the retreat and they want to experience ayahuasca, obviously they need to get off the antidepressants first, which is very difficult to do by yourself.

Danielle Nova (30:30.944)

Excellent.

Sam Believ (30:45.659)

because you know, you describe it yourself how strong the addiction to some of those antidepressants can be. So sometimes some of them use microdosing. So as they sort of start to lower their dosage of antidepressants, they start to take the microdose and it can really help. Do you know anything about it? Can you maybe share a protocol or something like that? Obviously not a medical advice.

Danielle Nova (31:13.644)

Can you, a protocol around antidepressants?

Sam Believ (31:18.107)

like quitting antidepressants and maybe using microdosing to help.

Danielle Nova (31:23.918)

It’s a really great question, yeah. You know, I don’t have a lot of experience in combining the withdrawal process with microdosing. Some people use microdosing to aid and support their withdrawal process from coming off of a certain medication. I’m such an advocate for one thing at a time.

personally because we just don’t know what the interactions are when it comes to combining the two. So, you know, it’s really up to a person to figure out what works for them. Some people might find that microdosing mushrooms eases their withdrawal from coming off of antidepressants. Other people might feel like it makes the intensifies the withdrawal process. So it’s really up to the individual to kind of figure that out for themselves. But.

And oftentimes there might be some contraindications, right? So if someone’s taking antidepressants and they’re microdosing with psilocybin, they both work on the same receptors. And we don’t know what the, there isn’t research that’s being done on the long -term implications of combining the two. So it is playing with fire and we just, we just don’t know. But if people are finding relief, you know, it might be temporary relief to help ease their process from getting off of.

the pharmaceutical drugs. And I’m such an advocate for, you know, people being able to use microdosing, especially when they come off of the psychiatric drugs to help support their process and rebuilding their brains and, you know, helping their mood, especially from getting off of psychiatric drugs. It can be really difficult. The biggest thing that I want people to know is that coming off of psychiatric drugs is really difficult at the beginning for most people.

it can make your depression way worse. It can give you hundreds of withdrawal symptoms. And when I was going through that process, I thought that that was me. I remember going to my doctor and telling him these horrible withdrawal symptoms that I was experiencing and he was saying, well, this is a sign that you need to be on medication. And that was just not true. There was actually a huge withdrawal process. So I really…

Danielle Nova (33:42.742)

Encourage people to educate themselves about the withdrawal process. I have a training at the psychedelic society where I train you All about what can happen in the withdrawal process just to get you really informed the problem with these Medications is that there’s there isn’t any informed consent when I came on these medications I was never told hey by the way, you’re gonna get addicted to them independent on them and it’s gonna be hell to get off of them, so

There isn’t that informed consent and I want people to be informed of potential withdrawal symptoms that they might be experiencing when coming off of these psychiatric drugs so that they can know, oh, this is the drug, this is not me. And to stay strong in that withdrawal process. Separate yourself from the withdrawal. That just because you might be suffering coming off of the medication doesn’t mean that there’s something wrong with you, doesn’t mean that you necessarily need the medication.

And it’s not right, it might not be right for every person right now. You know, sometimes people come off medications and it’s just too difficult for them to stay off of them. And that’s okay, you know. But give yourself space to recognize that it could be a time of difficulty. And for some people it’s not, you know. But go low, go slow, just like you would with psychedelic medicines, we always say with microdosing, go low and slow. And…

and experiment with things, you know? And if the microdosing does not bring relief as you come off of the psychiatric drugs, maybe that is not the right time. Maybe the time to start microdosing would be once you’ve completely come off of these psychiatric drugs and introduced the microdosing later down the line.

Sam Believ (35:29.659)

Well, apart from micro dosing, let’s say somebody really feels like doing iOS scan, the only thing that’s stopping them is the SSRI antidepressant. So what routines or maybe behaviors or activities you could recommend to somebody to ease that process.

Danielle Nova (35:55.598)

So many things. The biggest thing is get into nature every day. Put your back up against trees, lay on the grass, like absorb the energy from nature, really get reconnected with nature. There’s a lot of different supplements that you can take, IV therapies, like IV nutrient therapy really helped me as I came off of all these psychiatric drugs.

See a doctor, get some blood work. You know, oftentimes when you’re taking a lot of medications, it can actually disrupt a lot of your blood work and cause a lot of symptoms. So, you know, you want to make sure that you might be deficient in some areas. I know I was super deficient. I was not taking care of myself when I was on all these drugs. I just let my health go. When I came off of the medications, I completely changed my diet. You know, having an anti -inflammatory diet is really helpful.

and supportive when coming off of medications. Having community, you know, meeting friends, being out in the community, having support. We have psychedelic recovery groups multiple times a week. This is such a place to come to support yourself as you’re coming off medications. Speaking around your experience that you’re going through with people that get it is so helpful. So you don’t have to be alone going through this process.

breath work, yoga, moving your body, listening to music, getting connected with your spirituality, with the sun, getting as much sun as you possibly can, forest bathing. I did a lot of float tanks. There’s different bio hacking tools that you can use, peptides. There’s so many tools out there to support your process, but I don’t wanna overwhelm someone too much. A lot of this stuff can come after you’ve withdrawn.

off of these medications, but just really focusing on what your goals are. Who do you want to become? It’s staying really positive. Affirmations like, I am healing myself. I can do this. I have every confidence that I can do this. Developing a loving relationship with yourself is the most important medicine that you can possibly have as you go through this withdrawal process. Yeah, and changing that internal dialogue is really…

Danielle Nova (38:17.528)

supportive and helpful when withdrawing.

Sam Believ (38:21.787)

Thank you, I think those are all great suggestions. So, and yeah, it’s important to choose a few to begin with, because otherwise if you fail at one, then you will kind of give up on all of them.

In your work with clients one -on -one and helping them overcome their addiction, can you maybe share a story or some very impressive result and maybe what were the key ingredients in it?

Danielle Nova (38:54.574)

Absolutely. One of my favorite stories was an individual that had been on medications for most of their life ever since they were a child and also addicted to opioids. And when we started working together, they thought they were going to be on medications for the rest of their life.

And they were told that they had all these things wrong with them and they believed that all these things were wrong with them and they really didn’t believe in themselves. And through our process of working together, they were able to come off of all the medications that they were on safely under the care of a doctor. They were able to release their addiction to, or dependency to suboxone, to opioids and…

They completely transformed themselves and they were working with ayahuasca and really went through a transformational process. And I think one of the biggest elements of it is that they’ve started believing in themselves, that they started believing that it was possible to heal themselves, that there wasn’t anything wrong with themselves, that they weren’t crazy and that they could live a life free of addiction and free of dependency.

on these medications, which is incredibly powerful for someone that’s been on them since they were a child to finally experience life, what life is like off of these medications. And it was a very slow process and they were very committed to the work. And I think their connection with their spirituality helped them a lot. They became very spiritually connected and felt guided throughout this process and having someone.

you know, having me to support them in it, someone that’s been through that process and can inform them, like, this is very normal to feel this way, you know, you’re not going to feel this way forever. This is what you can do to support yourself and transform is incredibly helpful. And so they’ve, yeah, they’ve been free of medications for almost a year now and they’re doing really well and they’re back functioning and living their, a new life. They’ve completely transformed their life.

Danielle Nova (41:19.214)

And I’m so proud of them. They’re so amazing. And it’s been such an honor to support them in that process. And I tell them that this is, they are my mission. You know, I want to help more people. I want to help anyone that is wanting to transform out of addiction, out of suffering, and to help them get them to a place of liberation.

Sam Believ (41:42.203)

great story thank you for for sharing it you mentioned that getting connected spiritually really helped that person my own spiritual connection came pretty much directly after my first ayahuasca experience and it was gradually expanded by ayahuasca but before that i must say i was really not connected so how does one discover

spiritual connection or create one without let’s say use of plant medicines.

Danielle Nova (42:18.83)

I think it’s a really great question. I think a lot of research can be helpful of understanding that the separation between us and our spirituality is an illusion, that we are actually spiritual beings having a human experience. And we’ve been conditioned to be so separate from spirituality or that spirituality is religion, where for some people it is religion, but for other people it’s just a way of life.

I am a spiritual being in this human body, but I trust that my soul travels for many lifetimes. And I think the biggest way people can connect with their spirituality is connecting with their soul, with their desires, with what their beliefs are, and questioning their beliefs. Like, do I believe this because it’s been programmed into me, or because this is what I actually believe? And…

Are there any signs in a person’s life that are guiding them to believe that there’s something greater than themselves? We are the tree, we are the leaves on the tree and the tree itself. We are a drop in the ocean and the drop itself. We are the fractal, we are a fractal of the divine. That’s what the psychedelic plants teach, taught me was that, you know, we are a fractal of our, of spirit, right? Of God.

And those are just my own personal beliefs, but I think it’s important as people develop their spirituality to develop it on their own. It’s a very personalized journey. Some way that people might start is if they see 11 -11 on the clock or synchronicities or signs. Even experiencing a small synchronicity, that is magic, that is spirit, that is a connection with the universe. And we are the entire universe experiencing itself within ourselves.

So yeah, I just encourage people to do a lot of research on spirituality and on the universe, even simulation theory, and so people can develop their own belief systems on their own. But it’s a very personal journey and you really do have to feel called. I don’t know how I would necessarily teach someone about spirituality unless they don’t have curiosity or interest or a personal experience of opening up spiritually themselves.

Sam Believ (44:38.843)

this is why it is kind of hard to start and this is why I personally like ayahuasca so much because it can be a jump start to that world and kind of wake all of that up but it’s obviously hard if you’re addicted to antidepressants and you can’t have ayahuasca and then microdosing is also questionable so it’s a tough position to be in but…

what comes to mind is maybe breathing exercises or something that can put you in that state and you’re not necessarily taking any substances or some form of a prayer if you believe in something. So, but yeah, tell us.

Danielle Nova (45:21.23)

I love that prayer, meditation.

Sam Believ (45:25.307)

Yeah. Tell us why are you excited about Amanita Muscaria?

Danielle Nova (45:31.918)

I’m excited about Amanita because it’s known as the anti -anxiety mushroom. Currently, given the legal paradigm around psychedelics, Amanita is unregulated, at least within the US, and it is grown in nature all over the world. It’s found under pine trees, and what they’re finding is that it works on the GABA receptors of the body, so it is very relaxing and sedating.

and helpful for nervousness and anxiety. And there’s the whole paradigm and epidemic of dependency to anti -anxiety medications coming off of benzodiazepines for me was the most difficult process that wreaked havoc on my life and pure hell. So the fact that there’s a substance that can help people heal their anxiety, that’s not.

addictive or not harmful to them is amazing and so exciting. So yeah, I’m a big advocate for microdosing Emonida mascaria mushroom.

Sam Believ (46:37.561)

Yeah, for those who don’t know Amanita Muscaria is the fly agaric. It’s the mushroom with the red top and the white dots on it. It’s the mushroom, it’s the mushroom in the emoji -cons, sorry, the smiley faces. And I think it’s, there’s this story about how Santa Claus is actually that mushroom. Do you know that story? Can you tell it to the listeners?

Danielle Nova (46:58.798)

Mm -hmm. Yeah. I’ve heard that it’s been debunked, so I don’t know how true it is, but some of the myth around it is that Santa Claus was a shaman of the Amanita muscaria mushroom, and it was going through a prohibition, so they had to put the Amanita down the chimney.

and in order to be able to get the aminida in the house and aminida are traditionally grown under pine trees. So it’s like the presence underneath the pine tree. And so if you eat raw aminida muscaria mushroom, it creates something called the ipotenic acid, which is important to not eat large amounts of that because it can create really uncomfortable sensations in the body. So it needs, you need to take the raw mushroom and take it through a heating process and decarboxylate it into muscimol.

And something that can do that is if you drink your urine or a lot of the reindeer would eat the Amanita muscaria and then they would drink the urine from the reindeer because it would go through that heating process and that decarboxylation process. Once the Amanita muscaria goes through that decarboxylation process, it creates a psychedelic effect. So that’s why there’s the flying reindeer and yeah, it creates the visions. So yeah.

I don’t know how true that story is. Again, I’ve heard it’s been completely debunked, but that is one iteration of the story that I’m familiar with.

Sam Believ (48:35.439)

the coincidences are many and very very suspicious. So I do like to believe some of those stories but yeah it’s good to question them. It’s interesting how traditionally so Amanita muskara grows in North America, it grows in Europe, it grows all over Siberia basically almost everywhere even here in Colombia I’ve seen it in the forest. So

Danielle Nova (48:39.53)

Exactly.

Sam Believ (49:01.551)

It’s interesting to see that right now I think you and me as well, we work with indigenous traditions of South America and work with ayahuasca and other plants that they have preserved. But unfortunately we lost our own psychedelic tradition. But still somewhere in Siberia, for example, there are still shamans that work with mushrooms because that’s what they have available. And in different countries there’s many more psychedelics and many more of them to discover.

But I believe in the past, every culture had a psychedelic as this tool of connection and we lost ours. So we had to kind of adopt what indigenous people used to have. And I’m so grateful to them for preserving that tradition because it’s a great one and it’s an ancient one and they don’t only have the compound itself. I mean, you can still find the mushroom, but what about…

everything else that comes with it, you know, the songs and the chants and spiritual practices. I think we’re living in a very great time where all of that is available. And yes, there are also great challenges, you know, like in talking about addiction, like fentanyl crisis and mental health crisis and…

Danielle Nova (50:20.078)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (50:22.715)

all this, you know, they say close to 30 % of Americans are on antidepressants. It’s crazy. But at the same time, we also get tools to work with like ayahuasca. So I don’t know where I’m going with that, but can you maybe talk a little bit about from your experience about mental health crisis, addiction crisis, what’s going on with fentanyl? Could plant medicines be helpful with that? Or is it just too strong?

Danielle Nova (50:51.726)

I think you said it beautifully that we’re going through a crisis right now. I had no idea it was 30 % of Americans, but I believe it. I mean, there’s millions of Americans and millions of people around the world that are dependent on pharmaceutical drugs. And we have been conditioned to believe that that’s not addiction, that addiction is heroin or fentanyl, which that is addiction, right? But so is taking something

Every single day that you’re dependent on that you can’t get off of. That’s addiction as well. You know, we’re even seeing phone addiction, right? Like people are addicted to their phones, they’re addicted to social media, they’re addicted to the internet. It’s a paradigm of self escapism and not being able to process emotions. For me, addiction saved my life. It really did. I probably would have taken my life had I not had addiction. Addiction…

helped me soothe myself. It helped me find God, really, at the beginning of my addiction. It was like an abusive boyfriend. I felt love from addiction. I felt like it was solving my problems. It was keeping me company. It was keeping me safe. It was keeping me held. And ultimately, it became a very abusive relationship that I hated and I wanted to get out of. So I think that there’s a lot of people that are suffering in relationship with substances.

thought patterns, behaviors that are helping them in some way, but are also really abusive and hurting them. And it’s up to a person to understand what is that, what’s happening. And fentanyl is definitely, there’s a huge epidemic of fentanyl addiction. I think that the silent epidemic is with these psychiatric drugs. Like no one is talking about how…

addictive they are and how difficult they are to come off of, especially these benzodiazepines. People are getting super hooked. Benzodiazepines like Xanax and Valium, people are on them for decades when really they’re only supposed to be prescribed for four to six months at max. They’re supposed to be rescue medications, not long -term medications. And they cause some serious problems coming off of them. And…

Danielle Nova (53:11.342)

no one’s really talking about that. And so that’s a big part of my mission is to educate people about how addictive these substances are and that people don’t have to be on them for the rest of their lives. That there is life beyond dependency to a lot of these medications, but it’s so important that people have support as they’re coming off of them and do it safely because there’s ways that you can harm yourself if you don’t do.

don’t do it safely.

Sam Believ (53:43.355)

I think those are beautiful words and I think it’s a great also way to finish the episode. So, Daniel, where can people find more about you?

Danielle Nova (53:58.126)

So people can find me through Instagram. My Instagram is connectwithd, also psychedelicssocietiesf. You can also find us on our website, psychedelicrecovery .org, psychedelicssocietiesf .org. I’m working on my own personal website right now, which is danielnovah .com. I do one -on -one.

guidance for people that are wanting to come off of medications or break out of addiction. You know, I’m really a big advocate and support for people to take them through this process of healing. I also help people with microdosing and people that are just wanting to learn how to microdose to transform and grow personally. I’m also developing a training, a microdosing facilitator training.

that teaches people how to become facilitators of microdosing experiences. And I’m working with Dr. Jim Fadiman and Adam at Flowstate Micro on a new project and program. And that’s going to be launching in a couple months. So inviting people that are wanting to be trained in this, in microdosing to join the program. And I’m also working on a couple other projects through the Psychedelic Society that I’m feeling.

really excited about and people can find us on our website.

Sam Believ (55:22.201)

Thank you, Danielle. Thank you so much for sharing your story. And I think it’s beautiful how you not only overcame your own struggles, but also then went ahead and started helping others. It was really great. Thank you.

Danielle Nova (55:38.67)

Thank you so much. I really appreciate the opportunity to speak to your community. The last thing I’ll say is we have a lot of integration groups. Psychedelic Recovery is our program. We offer nine groups a month where people can come and process their psychedelic experiences, especially around addiction recovery and just welcoming people to these groups. The Psychedelic Society has 15 support groups in total a month, all online integration circles where people can come and process their experiences.

and we offer a variety of classes to teach people how to use psychedelics safely and intentionally and want people to learn how to use these substances to transform. And thank you, Sam, so much for your work with the medicine. I feel your heart behind it, your care behind it. Really appreciate everything that you’re doing with this podcast and grateful to share here today.

Sam Believ (56:31.003)

Thank you, Danielle. Guys, I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you like our podcast and would like to support us and the psychedelic renaissance at large, please follow us and leave a like, whatever you’re listening to this episode. As always with you, the host, Sam Bileev, and our guest today was Danielle Nova.

In this episode of AyahuascaPodcast.com host Sam Believ has a conversation with Lauren Sambataro on the topics of how mental health affects physical health and vice versa, how Trauma can cause inflammation, how psychedelics can help, BDNF, microdosing and so much more.

Find more about Lauren here

https://www.instagram.com/lauren_sambataro?igsh=ODlyOXhrNG5qOW5i

Her podcast is biohacker babes

https://open.spotify.com/show/4pGQyevVPsSDyRxmYbHER5?si=r0Ysl-H6SMGpOlSv9t-o6A

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:01.418)

to ayahuascapodcast.com as always with you your host Sanbeliev. Today our guest is Lauren Sambataro. Lauren is a functional health coach, she’s a lifestyle and movement coach, she’s a co-host of Biohacker Babes podcast, she’s a former Broadway performer and she helps people transcend their wellness goals. Lauren, welcome to the podcast.

Lauren (00:24.738)

Thank you so much for having me. It’s a pleasure.

Sam Believ (00:28.634)

Lauren, I would like to talk a little bit about your childhood and your background and I think the good segue into it is this question. Is this true that you grew up biohacking?

Lauren (00:40.006)

It is true. Yes. I call, or my sister and I, we call our dad the OG biohacker because he was biohacking in the 80s. That was before really the term was coined. And so I grew up with red light therapy and PEMF, which is Pulse Electromagnetic Frequency. It basically is the energy from the earth harnessed into technology. And really grew up around this curiosity mindset, which is

fueled my entire career and is really informed what I do today, just being more curious about our biology and emotional and spiritual health. So yes, it’s true.

Sam Believ (01:19.334)

Well, the biohacking did you well, I must say. Thank you to your dad. You’re very productive. You’re very active. And I think you’re helping lots of people. So how did you go, how did you start working with, you know, helping people, coaching, lots of things you do, including your work with psychedelics.

Lauren (01:39.834)

Yeah, I think it trailed my own health journey, my own health curiosities. So I grew up performing. I was a dancer and I went to college and wanted to perform professionally. And I did, I went to New York and performed on Broadway. And I got into personal training as a way to protect my physical body. And I really wanted to prevent injuries and make sure that I was in tip top shape and reaching my own health potential. And that really cascaded into learning all about.

how to optimize health in other ways, through nutrition, through sleep, circadian rhythm, through stress management. I realized the physical piece was only one puzzle. And I think as we do in the health journey and most of our careers, we realize it’s just a layer and then you find more layers, you find more layers. And as I was learning and improving myself, I was then able to trail and help others to do the same. So it’s just been such a beautiful journey where it’s like, I learn, I teach, I learn, I teach. And…

You know, the beautiful thing is that it never ends. There’s always more. It’s like an onion. It just keeps on giving.

Sam Believ (02:44.942)

Yeah, I identify with that, you know, I also didn’t come to this work straight away to just I’m going to go and start an ayahuasca retreat, you know, you heal yourself first and then you get so excited. You just want to pass it on. I think it’s a it’s a beautiful way. So you said you were you love dancing as you grew up and then you were a dancer as well. So obviously you had a lot of focus on your body. Let’s talk about that a little bit because you talk a lot about that. You know, you’re a lot of your mental health is below your neck.

Lauren (02:57.984)

Yes.

Sam Believ (03:15.255)

So talk to us a little bit about that. What you learned or understood, you know, how the connection to body can help people heal.

Lauren (03:23.866)

Yeah, I think I’ve been aware of this connection my entire life. I just wasn’t always able to put it into words. And I think that’s mainly based on our educational system and also the way that we address psychology and mental health in this world for so long, it was just a neck up approach, a lot of emphasis on talk therapy and it’s really needed and essential and does a lot of great things in the world. And now that we have this desigmentation, stigmatization of mental illness and mental health.

more people have the resources. But what I think I intuitively knew as a child in having movement and dance be my sort of language and expression and understanding of the world, I realized there was just like this innate wisdom of the body that could really give us a lot of feedback and information about what we need, how we can relate better to ourselves and relate better to the world. And then also just like this really great wisdom on what we need to be healthy and optimal.

So growing up as a dancer, that was just so natural to me. I didn’t realize that it was a way to optimize my health. You know, I came in the back door through personal training and exercise, very like traditional methods of showing up to the gym. I wouldn’t say that was a very intuitive way of connecting with my physical body, but it was a way. And then again, through my own health challenges, I realized, oh my gosh, I’m seeking answers outside of myself.

I’m looking to experts, I’m looking to Google, I’m looking to run kind of these experimentations and looking at data to give me feedback. But what I realized is that my physical body, which most of it is from the neck down, was my best feedback tool. And getting that feedback makes you realize that you have all the tools that you need for healing, right? And one of my greatest mentors always says, like the best way towards healing is radical honesty.

And I believe that if we can be radically honest with ourselves, we do already have those answers. And that’s how psychedelics, I think, helps us so much because it does kind of help us get out of our own way and release these blocks that we have about seeking external answers or external validation. It’s like, no, just trust, trust self, be radically honest. And there’s so much inside of us that can help us get us to where we want to go, essentially.

Sam Believ (05:48.242)

I think the mentor you’re mentioning is Paul Cech, right? Yeah, he’s on my hit list for people to interview for the podcast. So Paul Cech, if you’re listening.

Lauren (05:51.531)

Yes, you know.

Lauren (05:59.19)

That will be the best ever. I hope you can get him. He is the rarest gem.

Sam Believ (06:02.606)

Yeah, if you’re listening, which I know he isn’t, but you know, you send the you send the message to the universe, maybe one day. So I really like that conversation because my very simplistic understanding is like, had this thoughts, bodies, emotions. So if there’s disconnect between two, it doesn’t go far. So we kind of need to find balance there. Let’s talk about you know, the effect of

Lauren (06:24.014)

Mm-hmm.

Sam Believ (06:29.982)

physical health on mental health.

Lauren (06:34.026)

Yeah, they are inextricably linked. I don’t think that we could separate them. I guess it depends how you wanna come into this conversation. There’s so many different ways, but I think because it’s a psychedelic, yeah, go ahead.

Sam Believ (06:46.88)

Let’s do nutrition, gut, eating that direction. Cameron, pull the mouth.

Lauren (06:54.054)

Okay, so how our physical health is supported by what we put into our bodies? Yeah.

Sam Believ (06:59.894)

Mm hmm. So how does physical health through, let’s say through nutrition in that case, translate to our mental health? And we can also talk, I know you love talking about strength training, just you take it from where you like.

Lauren (07:10.422)

Mm-hmm.

Lauren (07:17.214)

Yeah, so I always like to think about how our ancestors live. I think there’s so much wisdom that can be gained by just going back to the most traditional ways of existing on this planet. We think about our physical body, which is made up of trillions of microbes and cells and mitochondria, and we have viruses and parasites. We are a sensing organism. And through sensing our external environment, we really pick up.

cues on how our biology is going to be expressed. So a lot of us are familiar now with epigenetics, like we’re born with a certain set of genetic code, but it’s the environment, the environmental cues that really dictate what’s going to be expressed or not. So since the beginning of time, our biology was sensing the environment to get information on how to express and exist. So nutrition and things that we consume, and that could be food, it could be non-food, it could be

you know, processed junk that’s not really food, but it’s still something that we consume. Water is consumed. We could consider thoughts or something that we consume. Anything that is in our sort of dopamine world, consuming content, consuming just any kind of experience is affecting our biology because it’s information. And so we can choose positive information, and I know that’s a little bit of a gray area and subjective, but we can choose more positive information.

to tell our genetic code how to express itself, or we can choose more quote unquote negative inputs and then we could have a more negative expression. And this is a really personalized kind of equation and code. So it’s unique to our own biology. Your bio individuality is separate from my bio individuality and it’s like on a biological chemical level. And so nutrition becomes.

essential because our body is requiring these sort of inputs and cofactors and enzymes through what we consume with food to tell our body how to respond and within that is our mental health. So there’s a lot of supplement and it could come from an actual supplement in a bottle or could come from supplements from food, vitamins, enzymes, cofactors that can either create mental wellness

Lauren (09:39.374)

kind of move us towards a mental illness. Like it is, it’s a large spectrum that we have here. And I think a lot of people may often jump to psychedelics or plant medicine as a fix for mental lack of wellness, I like to say rather than just jumping to mental illness, without looking at the nutritional inputs that are probably dictating your mood, your mental state, your neuroplasticity or the opposite, which would be neurodegeneration.

And I think there’s probably a lot of like really key vitamins that are overlooked things like zinc excellent for mental health magnesium B vitamins that sort of like the top one on my hit list, but I would say for anyone that is choosing psychedelics to increase their mental health we need to consider those inputs in our nutritional choices

Sam Believ (10:32.646)

Looking at your background, I can say you probably need to supplement some vitamin D as well. It’s very dark and cold. I mean, it seems obvious, right, that you know when you go to the gym, you work out.

Lauren (10:39.157)

Yes, yes, essential. Yeah.

Sam Believ (10:49.458)

you automatically feel better, but it’s just hard for us to do. You talk a lot about, so you mentioned nutrients, you talk a lot about that before we even, before they even get to our system, how important it is to eat mindfully. For example, I’ll be honest, when I was preparing for this podcast a few weeks ago, I picked that up and I’ve been trying to eat mindfully. I don’t know how to do it properly. Maybe you can give us some tips, but…

It’s very difficult. It’s so difficult if you’ve never done it because your mind is so conditioned to like, you know, I’m one of those people that gets a plate and before I get something to watch or something to do, I don’t start eating. This is how bad it is. So, um, so I tried it and it’s nice. It’s kind of like if you think about it, then you want to meditate more. You’re gonna eat at least one hour every day. So if you combine that with eating and meditating, that’s pretty great. So can you talk to us a little bit about that?

Lauren (11:47.738)

Yes, eating mindfully. So you’re asking as opposed to eating on the go, eating while you’re rushed or stressed or just not really being present with food.

Sam Believ (11:55.387)

Yeah, like.

Why should we do it and how should we do it?

Lauren (12:01.478)

Yeah, so a lot of what happens, this is many of us, we’re all guilty and victims of this, is that if we don’t eat mindfully, so that could be everything I just said, eating on the go, eating while stressed, maybe eating too quickly, not being present with your food, your body is in more of a sympathetic state. Most of us understand the nervous system now, we have sympathetic, which is more of a fight or flight, and then we have parasympathetic, which is our rest, digest, our down regulation.

And we do want a healthy balance of both, right? We want some sympathetic, we want some parasympathetic, we wanna be able to hit the gas and hit the brake pedal. What happens when you are not eating mindfully is that you are usually eating in a sympathetic state, which means that your digestion is not turned on. Digestion is a crucial component of your metabolism. If your digestion is not optimal, you’re not gonna be absorbing, digesting, assimilating those nutrients that I said are so crucial for mental health.

So we start to see a breakdown in absorption of nutrients, but we’re also perpetuating the sympathetic state. If you’re in a sympathetic state, your body senses and perceives that there’s threat. So I mentioned earlier, like thinking back to ancestral times, we’re always sensing what’s in our environment. Obviously we had a lot more like real stressors, our ancestors did, they were running from wildlife, they didn’t have the comforts of electricity and.

and warm beds, so we have much more cushioned, comfortable lives now, but that doesn’t mean that our bodies are not still sensing. They’re constantly sensing. And if we tell it to be in more of a fight or flight sympathetic state, then again, we’re not gonna digest and assimilate our nutrients, so we’re not gonna have those co-factors and enzymes for good mental health. And we’re just perpetuating sort of that stress response. When we live in a chronically stressed state, we create a chronic.

inflammation states or a pro-inflammatory state. And I believe that mental illness or a lack of mental wellness is a pro-inflammatory state. So we really need to look at our stress management. We need to look at how we’re eating. And you said it so beautifully, like eating mindfully really can be that catalyst for all of these downstream effects and for better mental health. So a lot of times it takes practice. It’s like riding a bike. You have to do it a hundred times before you actually

Lauren (14:23.534)

feel confident and good at it. But just slowing down, like taking a few breaths before you eat, trying not to eat on the go. I know like we can’t be perfect all the time and we should give ourselves grace and compassion for those days that we aren’t perfect. Like don’t judge yourself or get hard on yourself. But your baseline should be that you can sit intentionally and enjoy your food, right? Food is meant to be enjoyed. But in our modern day lives, we’ve become so busy that it’s kind of fallen down the priority list.

I’m encouraging that we move food up the priority list into something that can be enjoyed. We can sit and express gratitude and sit with friends and family. And again, it’s not going to happen every single meal of the day. We do it as often as we can.

Sam Believ (15:06.391)

Yeah, it’s interesting how the once again the ancients have figured out, you know, the prayer before the meal now starts to make more sense if you think about it this way. You say, you know, you say that trauma causes inflammation as well. What is the mechanism of that?

Lauren (15:13.411)

Mm-hmm.

Lauren (15:16.851)

It does. Yeah.

Lauren (15:27.838)

Yeah, so again, our bodies are sensing threat. And when we perceive threat, it turns on our immune system. It’s a safety mechanism. Our bodies want us to be safe. They want us to survive and adapt. And so when it perceives threat, so that could be a real threat, like we’re actually in danger, or it could just be a stressor from work or an anxiety about something that’s coming up, our body perceives that it needs to be on alert.

So we create this vigilance in the immune system. So it could just be something in your daily workday or it could be a real trauma. And it could be something, a childhood trauma, we can look at like the ACE scores if you actually lived in a home environment that was traumatic or at any point in your, you know, adolescence through adulthood, if you’ve experienced a traumatic event, it turns on your immune system. And when your immune system is activated, then it simulates this inflammatory response.

Now that’s totally normal. It’s a way to protect your body and to help you come back into homeostasis when that event has gone away or resolved itself. What happens though is that a lot of our bodies are already inflamed from poor food choices, from lack of stress management, from not slowing down, from toxins in our environment. So we’re already in a pro-inflammatory state. So often when we experience a traumatic event, we’re just pouring fuel on the fire.

Now that keeps us in an inflammatory state. And then it comes back to the nervous system. Our nervous system is gonna stay in a more of a sympathetic state. And so they found in research things like PTSD for actually raising inflammatory markers like CRP. It’s one of the most well studied systemic inflammatory markers. We’re seeing higher CRP levels after an event, a traumatic event. When we have higher CRP, the prevalence of PTSD becomes much higher.

They’ve actually even studied like Marines and military before they go off to duty, like just anticipating the stress and trauma that they’re gonna be under increases the prevalence of them coming back to have PTSD because their immune system inflammation is already sort of activated and vigilant. It’s really interesting. So really what we need to focus on is can we recover from that traumatic event?

Lauren (17:49.634)

Can we lessen all of the burdens that are already creating an inflammatory state so that we can recover and come back to homeostasis and find that balance in the nervous system?

Sam Believ (18:00.474)

Yeah, that’s great. It’s strange how in our society we really like to separate the mind and the body in all aspects of it. For example,

Lauren (18:07.714)

Mm-hmm.

Sam Believ (18:10.334)

You know, we focus so much on nutrition and we focus so much on supplements or what, you know, what we do, but how important is the mindset, right? So for example, as I like to say, if you’re stressed all day because you know you can’t eat the piece of cake that you desire so much, it will probably cause you more damage than actually eating the cake. And so yeah, so I really like that, you know.

Lauren (18:27.638)

hahahaha

Lauren (18:33.298)

Absolutely, absolutely.

Sam Believ (18:39.602)

I like that you have this holistic approach where you focus on the mental health, on the physical health and everything else in between. So in your practice, let’s say you’re working with somebody and you’re coaching them in their health and wellness journey, when does the psychedelic come in? When do you choose to introduce them in the work?

Lauren (19:04.842)

Yeah, I think when I sense, feel, or maybe there’s even a very explicit conversation around a mindset block, I think on a deep cellular level or subconsciously, a lot of us don’t even believe in our own healing. And that can be for many reasons. It could be from a childhood trauma, it could be something transgenerational. And we tend to have these blocks, so we’re pattern makers. We may develop this pattern around…

I actually thrive more in a sick and unhealed state because it’s a to do, right? We’re taken care of, there’s something to focus on where healing actually creates this ease and can be a little unnerving to people. Like what do I do when I’m actually healed? I have less things to do, I have less people focused on me. And so I think, and that’s just one example, but I think a lot of times we can kind of perpetuate this idea that the healing will be forever.

And so when I sense with a client that there is a mindset block around the healing, or if there’s just sort of some boundaries in understanding the bigger picture. For example, I’ve had clients that have been very minutely focused on macros or calories or the number of minutes spent in exercise, like these really micro variables that are not really in tune with our comprehensive holistic.

body, mind, and spirit integration. Bringing in psychedelics can really kind of soften that rigidity around those practices and like the hyper focus and vigilance around those variables. It will soften and allow some other doors and windows to open and like the possibility of believing that there can be another way and even an easier way. So I’ve used it for clients that are trying to lose weight. I’ve used it for clients that are really anxious about their health practices. I’ve used it for clients, of course,

mood that just needed the motivation to do the things that they already know they’re supposed to be doing. It’s like, yes, I know I should be exercising. I know I should be eating healthier, more real food, but there’s just something that’s keeping me from doing that. And so we have the softening of these belief structures and also an inherent motivation to start doing the things that we already know to do. So I think there’s a lot of applications, but just in general, I’ve seen it create a lot more ease.

Lauren (21:25.726)

and less rigidity so that we can put one foot in front of the other and do that thing that we know we’re supposed to do.

Sam Believ (21:33.382)

Yeah, that’s beautiful about how important it is to change those mental models because, you know, our words are very powerful and the words we tell ourselves. It’s like if you say, you know, I’m a bad sleeper, before you change your sleep, you need to get out of that pattern.

Lauren (21:51.862)

Yeah, thoughts become proteins, right? You say it and your cells immediately go, oh, okay, that’s the story. Yeah.

Sam Believ (21:58.842)

Yeah, it’s super powerful. I think in my own personal health journey and mental health journey specifically when I started drinking Alaska, the biggest thing that changed was that mindset. I just all of a sudden started believing in myself. And as I did, everything just magically improved. I mean, not magically, there was a lot of work involved, but it’s like you change direction and then if you keep moving in the right direction, even slowly you get there.

Lauren (22:15.875)

Mm.

Sam Believ (22:27.086)

So when you are making that decision and let’s say introducing microdosing in somebody’s schedule in their health journey, how do you choose between microdosing and macrodosing?

Lauren (22:27.214)

Mm-hmm.

Lauren (22:44.662)

Hmm, I would say it’s just a general level of interest and readiness. I’ve had people that have come to me and said like, I’m ready, I want to just dive in right straight away. And sometimes I sense that is the right path forward. Of course, we have to kind of discern, are we looking for this big magic pill solution to just take away all the work? In some cases,

there are people saying that have done the work and I really do sense and believe that, you know, doing something deeper could be beneficial. So I think it just is an interplay between the practitioner and the client or the patient to really determine if that feels like the right fit. What I like to do quite often is start with a microdosing protocol to get into that work of clarifying intentions.

setting up really clear routines, starting to work on the lifestyle, the habits, the nutrition, the circadian rhythm, getting sunlight and movement, so that we’re already working on the integration even before we’ve done the journey. So it really sets up the behaviors and then we can go in and do the macro work. And then we follow it with another microdosing journey, which kind of grounds us back into that experience and gets us back into a routine of these.

micro little behaviors every single day so that they get to keep that with them. Right, that’s the big challenge that we all experience in the plant medicine world is how are we integrating? Right, the integration happens no matter what. Are we integrating as best as possible? So I like to really bookend the experience with the micros. And then it’s just really sensing the client and what they’re ready for and.

I think if I sense that they’re sense or determine through lab work and our work together that there is a pro inflammatory state. A lot of times I’m not going to recommend jumping into a macro journey because I think that in itself could potentially be traumatic in itself. Like I want the body to already have a level of homeostasis. Of course, we know that plant medicines are naturally homeostatic and adaptogenic and antibacterial and antiviral. There’s all these amazing things.

Lauren (24:57.558)

But we have to look at the entire vessel and like, what is it already sensing? What kind of story is gonna be told if we drop into a really large experience? So it just takes some discerning to determine what I might recommend. And then making sure that you get like a heck yes from the client, right? Like they intuitively have to believe and be ready for that experience.

Sam Believ (25:19.246)

Yeah, with dosing as well, you talk about bio individuality. People also need to be careful with that because depending on your, your microbiome or your mental state and bunch of other factors, you also need, you can need more, you can need less. And especially with ayahuasca, it’s very complicated because sometimes you get a 40, 40 kilos, 80 pound lady and she takes three cups of ayahuasca and she doesn’t feel much. And then you can have a.

Lauren (25:34.606)

Mm-hmm.

Lauren (25:47.316)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (25:49.1)

50 pound guy take half a cup and be completely blown away and the next night they change around so it’s difficult. It’s less so with let’s say mushrooms but…

Lauren (25:56.403)

Yeah.

Yeah, so interesting. Size doesn’t really equate. There’s no kind of a chart to reflect to, I’m sure.

Sam Believ (26:08.486)

Yeah, I took a microdose once and I think it was maybe a little bit more instead of like 0.15 grams, I think maybe it was 0.3, 0.4 and I spent, you know, a couple hours just rolling on the grass and crying, maybe because I needed to, right? And as you work through…

Lauren (26:23.574)

Wow. Yeah.

Sam Believ (26:27.838)

through those states, sometimes you can find them easier and you can kind of also get, you know, set setting and then there’s also a third S that my chief facilitator coined, which is the skill. And I think it makes a lot of sense. So talking about microdosing, I know you mentioned the microdosing and BDNF. Can you tell people about it? I think it’s really interesting.

Lauren (26:39.811)

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Lauren (26:53.566)

Yeah, I think that’s one of the benefits of psychedelic medicine is this idea that we have a neuroplastic or a plastic brain, which is the ability to respond and adapt to our environment. Again, it’s a sensing mechanism. And based on old research, if the brain was just rigid and not able to change, of course, we know now that it can that we can change it. So that’s a big thing that we’re chasing with plant medicines is this neuroplasticity. And then it’s like, what are we doing?

to create new, more positive neural networks, we get that same effect from exercise. We get neuroplasticity and mechanism is through BDNF, brain-derived neurotrophic factor, which I like to call brain fertilizer. It’s like feeding the little Chia Pet so that it grows, but of course there’s a little more work and intention because we wanna make sure it grows in the right direction. But we can get that same kind of release of these, what we would say like happy chemicals and that.

feeling of motivation and energy that we all get after we work out. If we can just get to the workout, like you mentioned, it’s very hard to get started. And so that’s where microdosing is great because it kind of builds up this inherent motivation. It’s a little harder to get someone to the gym without that, but for most people, I think everyone has experienced this. You feel so much better after you go and that’s your BDNF, right?

And so BDNF is feeding that neuroplasticity. So then it’s like, oh, the world is your oyster. There are so many possibilities. You believe that you can conquer the day. You’re naturally motivated and you have more brain clarity and purpose. And so you are gonna be more productive. You’re gonna feel like the best version of yourself. So that’s one of those lifestyle principles that I always put into place with a microdosing protocol. We wanna make sure we have these lifestyle factors kind of pillowing the microdose because

you can take exercise with you through the rest of your life. In my opinion, I don’t want people to be on microdoses forever. I want them to get in there with clear intention. We wanna do the integration and then hopefully not need it anymore. I do think you’re gonna always need some exercise, right? Like, ancestrally, we moved. We picked up rocks, we moved, we ran. And I just think that’s such a beautiful thing that we can right now affect our mental wellness by moving our bodies.

Lauren (29:13.962)

And it doesn’t have to be traditional gym setting. It can just be something that brings you joy, like chasing your dog or going for a hike or anything in nature really. So that’s the other beautiful thing. You get to choose what that is for you.

Sam Believ (29:31.347)

I have a question for you. So you work with lots of clients I assume and you said that you like to do testing, do lab testing and be really grounded in the information. Have you noticed when you introduced microdosing or megadosing of psychedelics, have you noticed any blood chemistry, anything interesting or improvements or the other way around?

Lauren (29:43.918)

Mm-hmm.

Lauren (30:22.22)

Oh, I

Lauren (30:28.03)

I’m anti-viral, all of these things. It’s anti the stuff that could potentially take us down. So it is supporting the microbiome, it’s supporting our inflammation or oxidative stress. So I’m seeing a very gentle shift, though I don’t think that it would be awesome to do a meta analysis about this, right? Like I don’t have enough data at this point to say definitively, like it’s absolutely changing blood markers, but I think I’m seeing the right direction to say like, this is a pretty good hunch.

And yes, I would believe over time it is going to affect the blood markers in a positive way.

Sam Believ (31:04.671)

We’ll get the data eventually over time. I had maybe 10 episodes ago, I had a very interesting guest on the podcast. Her name is Joqueta Handy. And.

Lauren (31:06.959)

Yeah.

Lauren (31:15.598)

Yes, I know her. We went through the third wave program together. Yeah.

Sam Believ (31:21.678)

Nice, she spoke about how psychedelics and ayahuasca specifically seals the leaky gut. There’s been some studies and it was really interesting to know because obviously if you seal the leaky gut, last pathogens go on the bloodstream so you should probably see it. And hopefully, you know, before you come here to the wire, which I know you will eventually, you can test and then test afterwards and we’ll have a good end of one to sort of

Lauren (31:44.512)

Yes.

Sam Believ (31:49.972)

building on top of it. Great. Can you tell us a story about how microdosing helped you to write an ebook?

Lauren (31:51.346)

I love it. You can have all my data. Yeah.

Lauren (32:03.59)

Yes. It almost feels so insignificant at this point, but that was my introduction into microdosing. A friend of mine tried mushrooms and said, hey, you got to try this. And I trusted him. He’s a very trusted friend. And I had been sitting on this desire for writing an ebook. And I had this narrative that had been running in my brain for I don’t know how long that said, I’m not creative. I’m a bad writer. And I’m

I think the narrative was that I was lazy, though my rational brain understands me to not be so. But that was sort of the story that was running. And so I started microdosing and overnight the ebook was done. And you know, it wasn’t a long ebook, it was maybe 25 pages, which is why I kind of labeled it as insignificant. But that really opened up my eyes to kind of dissolving these rigid belief structures that were holding me back. And it taught me that

really, again, the world could be my oyster and I can achieve great things if I can dissolve these patterns. So that was my introduction into it. And so I’ve run many experiments since then. But in that moment, it helped me release that procrastination and actually be productive. It was pretty cool.

Sam Believ (33:23.194)

and no chat GPT involved, correct?

Lauren (33:25.846)

No, yeah, that was before chat GPT. If only I had that too, I would have written a 300 page book. Yeah.

Sam Believ (33:30.346)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (33:34.766)

It’s funny how you mention beliefs again. I used to believe I was lazy as well. I was, I could be the master at doing absolutely least amount of work necessary to not be fired and still be considered a good worker. But I knew I could do much more. But this belief greatly changed when I started doing my own projects. Now I’m a workaholic and I cannot, even Ayahuasca is not helping me. I can’t stop working. I just enjoy it so much.

Lauren (33:52.408)

Yeah.

Lauren (33:59.714)

Hmm.

Sam Believ (34:05.899)

So yeah, it’s all about beliefs and they’re very, very important. You talk about psychedelics as a form of hormesis as well.

Lauren (34:20.734)

Yeah, so, okay, what is the easiest route to connect those to? I think, again, if we look ancestrally, our bodies got to where we are today with the human species by responding to stress. So adapting, thriving, and recovering from that stress. So again, looking at the nervous system and the immune system, going through acute periods of stress. That’s what hormesis is, acute bouts of stress.

So not chronic stress, but an acute, meaning there’s a beginning and a very clear end. And then there’s a rebound effect where we get stronger, more resilient, more adaptable. And there’s a lot of ways we could look at that through psychedelics, but perhaps even just looking on a micro level with microdosing, we get this acute dose and the rebound effect is the dissolving of these belief structures so that we are stronger, more resilient, more believing.

And I think on a more macro level, of course, it just amplifies that entire experience. But these are very acute, like structured and clear settings with the idea that on the back end, we’re going to integrate. So maybe that’s the relation to hormesis is that we have a short bout of what could be stressful and stress isn’t always bad, right? It’s just a change to the inputs on our biology. So we get this acute positive stressor.

And then we allow for space for our bodies to adapt, respond, get stronger, more resilient. So that’s really the goal with the psychedelics is to not need it forever. We go in with clear intention and then we integrate and we’re stronger and we could go on to another lesson. And of course, our lives are dynamic and always changing. There’s going to be new challenges. So again, we’re always peeling back the layers of the onion. But I think the real relation to hormesis is that it needs to be acute and small.

and we’re really focusing on what is the integration after.

Sam Believ (36:16.23)

I’ve definitely noticed it in myself as well when you go into let’s say ayahuasca ceremony it is hormetic for sure. It’s very tough on your system both physically and mentally of course because it’s you know people say it’s like 10 years of therapy but 10 years of therapy is a lot of activity and sometimes you get a headache just because of how many thoughts you have. But then afterwards I do notice with good integration I do notice that I’m more sharp

Lauren (36:26.154)

Mm.

Sam Believ (36:46.384)

was before that I can attest to. So there’s definitely, let’s say with exercise, physical exercise, hormesis is you raise muscles, you break your muscle tissue and then it rebuilds itself. There’s something similar happens in the brain. It would be great to have some kind of studies on the topic.

Lauren (36:47.758)

Hmm.

Lauren (36:58.083)

Yes.

Lauren (37:07.63)

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And I think there is a lot that is discomfort, right? Like our ancestors were naturally uncomfortable all the time, which is how they got stronger. Now in our modern day lives are very, very comfortable. So we can use psychedelics as that source of discomfort to work through whatever our subconscious wants us to know. And as you said, on the back end, you generally feel a lot better.

Sam Believ (37:32.282)

Yeah. Can you tell us about four agreements?

Lauren (37:36.972)

Oh, the four agreements. Yes, I love this book. Are you familiar with the book?

Sam Believ (37:42.51)

No, I only learned it from you, from preparing to this podcast. So this is…

Lauren (37:47.038)

Okay, I highly recommend the book. I wonder if it’s on my bookshelf so I could pick it up. I think it’s on my other bookshelf. So the four agreements, let me see if I can even remember these off the top of my head. So I do a lot of metabolic health coaching, and I’ve used these four agreements in my metabolic health coaching because I think it can pertain to every area of life, but it’s meant to be more of a self-help book. So the four agreements are, do your best.

Easy one, do your best. Don’t take anything personally. And actually there are now five agreements. You Googled them?

Sam Believ (38:18.942)

Mm-hmm.

Sam Believ (38:23.784)

Mm-hmm. I googled them. Yeah, so I’m checking, I’m checking. If you miss something, I’m here to support you.

Lauren (38:30.97)

Um, be skeptical, but use discernment. What did I get? Don’t, don’t make assumptions. Yes. Did I get five? Don’t think things personally. Assumptions, be skeptical, do your best. I need help.

Sam Believ (38:37.352)

Don’t make assumptions, it says, but same.

Sam Believ (38:42.718)

The last one, you need help?

Sam Believ (38:51.758)

Be impeccable with your word, it says.

Lauren (38:54.946)

Beautiful, be impeccable with your word. Yeah, so I kind of think that they speak for themselves, but it’s interesting you bring that up because I use it a lot in my metabolic health coaching when we’re using data, which data can inherently feel very like anti-intuition, anti-wisdom of the body, maybe not so holistic, but in some cases data can be very revealing because it uncovers blind spots.

Sam Believ (39:01.374)

What are those? How do you use them?

Sam Believ (39:06.982)

Mm-hmm.

Lauren (39:22.178)

So in my work, I really like to pair the subjective, so our intuitive body or wisdom or learned experiences, how we feel our symptoms with objective data. So that could be lab work, it could be data wearables like a CGM or something that tracks our sleep like the Oura ring. And balancing the two can be really helpful. So the four agreements really take care of the blend or filling the gap in between. So with data,

we don’t take anything personally because our body is a very intelligent, sensing, adaptable mechanism. And so nothing is personal to us, it’s our body taking care of us and trying to keep us safe. So that relates to psychedelics quite well if we can trust in that process, our body is gonna take care of us. Whichever, whatever one relates really well. I think the…

Being skeptical, that is probably my favorite one. I think skepticism, or I like to say, like a healthy amount of skepticism really keeps us safe, but it also keeps us in the learning, in the growth. So if we can question and always come back to our own intuition and wisdom, we can gather the information, know what’s for us, trust what is for us, and then still take action, take the next step forward.

And with that step forward and taking that action, of course, we have to be impeccable with our word because that’s honesty, that’s honoring ourselves, it’s honoring everyone around us and doing our best. If we’re doing our best, then we are most likely are choosing growth and getting stronger, more resilient, and more adaptable. So it’s kind of a quite large way of being or relating to the world, but I think it pertains to so many areas of our health. So.

Those are my four agreements, five agreements that I like to live by.

Sam Believ (41:12.982)

Yeah, I can see how I could translate them into something that can help people integrate their psychedelic experience as well. So but this is useful and we’re learning and it’s great. So I really like your approach to health. I like how it’s balanced and you balance the physical, the mental and I’m on the same page with you.

Lauren (41:23.166)

Mm-hmm.

Sam Believ (41:42.888)

one of the very few ayahuasca retreats that has a functioning gym because yeah we have a gym we have like you know the squat rack and punching bag which is great also great form to release the anger if necessary because i believe in the same things i think there is this beautiful way we can balance

Lauren (41:48.317)

Oh really?

Lauren (41:56.831)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (42:07.082)

uh… you know mental health physical health but and also with productivity and the community i think those together like the pillars that can really that’s you know that’s what what’s missing right now in the society at large so this what we try to create here would be great to have you over one day as i told you and before we started recording you are invited and uh… and yet

Lauren (42:19.191)

Mm.

Lauren (42:24.884)

I can’t wait to come.

Thank you.

Sam Believ (42:34.542)

It’s been very interesting and I think I had a few more questions, but they’re kind of irrelevant. I think they felt relevant, but I think we kind of already addressed a lot of them from the other side. Lauren, where can people learn more about your, let’s say they would be interested in your coaching, where can they find you?

Lauren (42:42.434)

Hehehehe

Lauren (42:55.766)

Yeah, you can find me on my website, laurinsambatero.com, or on Instagram, which is where I spend the most of my time and that’s where we connected, lauren underscore sambatero. And maybe put that in the show notes because there’s a lot of letters. But thank you so much for having me. And I also have a podcast that’s called The Biohacker Babes. I host that with my sister.

Sam Believ (43:10.974)

Good, yeah.

Lauren (43:20.15)

And we talk all things biohacking. So there’s a good chunk of psychedelics in there, but everything that can optimize your brain, your body and your emotional health.

Sam Believ (43:31.294)

That’s great. Great name for the podcast as well. Um, guys, thank you for listening to Ayahuasca podcast. And, uh, our guest today was Lauren Sambataro and, uh, hope you enjoyed this episode.

Lauren (43:33.794)

Thank you.

Lauren (43:45.026)

Thank you so much.

In this episode of AyahuascaPodcast.com host Sam Believ has a conversation with Kyle Buller. Kyle is Cofounder and co-host of psychedelics today podcast.

We touch upon subjects of Breathwork, how Breathwork can help navigate the psychedelic experience. Kyle tells us about his near death experience and how it was a trigger for the start of his spiritual journey. We talk about trauma release and more.

Find more about Kyle Buller at http://www.settingsunwelness.com

Here is Kyle’s Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/settingsunwellness?igsh=MTAzODhmNzduYXFrdg==

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:01.949)

to ayahuascapodcast .com as always with you the hosts and belief. Our guest today is Kyle Buller. Kyle is co -founder and co -host of Psychedelic Today podcast. He’s a health counselor. He has BA in transpersonal psychiatry, MS in clinical mental health counseling and he’s…

his spiritual experience, his spiritual journey started with the near -death experience when he was 16, which we’ll talk about shortly. Kyle, welcome to the podcast.

Kyle Buller (00:38.122)

Thanks for having me here, Sam. Really excited.

Sam Believ (00:41.197)

Kyle, yeah, as I mentioned, I listened to many episodes with you and really loved, I mean, not to say that I enjoyed hearing about your near -death experience, but it was very interesting because I’ve heard it before from other people, so can you tell us a little bit about that experience and specifically, you know, the mystical part of it?

Kyle Buller (01:08.17)

Yeah, yeah, thanks for asking. I’ll try to keep it a little short if you want to drop in like a longer episode where I can go into like more details in your show notes, we can do that. But when I was 16, I went out snowboarding and I got in a really bad accident. I was night skiing out in Pennsylvania and I was going around this turn and the way the light was hitting the shadows and I just couldn’t see. Like I was going around really fast around this turn and there was this amount of snow just in this blind spot.

And I saw this mound and thinking, oh man, if I hit this, I’m going to die. So I tried stopping, I tried turning. It was like everything went slow mo. It was like this mound just kind of sucked me in. And then I flew through the air about 30 feet. And as my snowboard hit, heard a loud pop, I thought I snapped a rib. And I immediately started gasping for air, felt like I couldn’t breathe, instant pain. So thankfully, I…

I got down to first aid. I was laying on the mountain for about like 45 minutes or so, maybe a little bit longer waiting for first aid to come. So yeah, thankfully they got me down to first aid. They were checking all my vitals and they kept asking me questions like, are you usually this pale? Do you usually have a low pulse? And I was like, I don’t know. I don’t pay attention to this stuff as being a 16 year old. So they were checking me out and…

They said, you know, your ribs are fine. You know, there’s no sign of bruising. Nothing seems broken. We think you have internal injuries. And at that point, I just thought, oh shit, I’m gonna die tonight. And thankfully they got a helicopter and medevacked me out. And I guess as they got me out, they looked at my dad and they said, your son’s in his golden hour and he may not make it. And so I think that was like, that really scared him.

And yeah, thankfully they got the medevac, they flew me out. And by the time I got to the ER, so like when I was in the first aid station, I was really thinking about dying. Never really grew up very religious or anything like that, but I started praying and I remember going, God, I’m 16, I’m too young, I don’t wanna die, please, please save me. And then by the time I got to the hospital and the ER, I didn’t really think about dying. It felt like…

Sam Believ (03:14.429)

you

Kyle Buller (03:30.41)

I, my consciousness started to kind of start to expand outside my body a bit. It was really interesting. My uncle was a first responder for that township. And he was standing beside me. And I remember having this like really interesting thought going, you know, this person I consider blood, you know, he’s family, but where I’m about to go, I can’t take anybody with me. This is my own journey. And in the meantime, I’m hearing the doctors and nurses, you know, they’re really anxious.

Sam Believ (03:43.037)

you

Kyle Buller (03:58.122)

there, I could hear the one nurse say like, I can’t get a pulse on him, his veins in his upper body are collapsing. And they’re just jabbing me with IVs, trying to tap a vein. And yeah, so they they, they, they realized that the seriousness of the situation, they did a sonogram on me to figure out what was going on. And as they were doing that, they said, you know, you have lots of blood in your abdomen. This is the reason why you feel really sick, you have massive internal bleeding, we need to figure out where this is coming from.

So they got me to the CAT scan machine to try to do some more scanning and figure out what was going on. And while I was in the CAT scan machine, the doctors kept telling me not to fall asleep. I was so cold at this point. I felt like I was submerged in a tub of ice water. I was so tired and I was just sitting there just drifting off. And I could hear the doctor say, don’t fall asleep, Kyle, stay with us, stay with us. And it felt like I was in my body. It felt like I was on the other side of the room with the doctors.

And then as I really started to drift off, I heard this voice and I don’t really never know how to describe it or how I remember it. It wasn’t like an external voice of something like, you know, out there, I could hear it, you know, auditorily. And it felt more of like this internal voice, but something came over me and said, you’re going home. You’re going back to the stars where we all come from and this physical life is going to cease to exist and you’ll continue on. But…

the more that you struggle with this experience, the harder the transition will be. So the more that you can relax into this experience, the easier the transition will be. And I just remember kind of being blissed out and going, I’m going home, I’m going home. This is what we all wait for. I mean, I wasn’t saying that like verbally out loud, but it was more of this like internal kind of bliss that started to overcome. And…

The doctors took me out and they said I ruptured my spleen and they needed to do surgery immediately. And I woke up in the ICU and thinking like, what the hell just happened? And I was pretty cognizant of like, what was going on. I remember what day it was. I remember like what time everything started to happen. But

Kyle Buller (06:16.778)

Yeah, that’s the gist of it. I got in this really bad snowboarding accident and almost died from blood loss internally.

Sam Believ (06:27.069)

Well, first of all, Kyle, I’m happy you didn’t die. And it’s great to have you alive and have you here in the podcast instead. And I know you’re doing a lot of great work. So glad you didn’t die. The voice that you’re describing and you know, the way the message came through, it kind of reminds me when me, myself, or other people tried to explain how I was to communicate with them. It’s kind of like, was it the voice? Was it the message? But it’s like, it’s pretty clear what it comes to. But I’m very curious to know like that moment when you said this, like,

Kyle Buller (06:30.858)

Me too. Thank you.

Sam Believ (06:56.975)

we’re going back to the stars. Is there anything else? Did you see anything or feel anything? Was it now after your psychedelic experience and you said that when you started working with psychedelics you relived that experience. So what are the parallels in between that state of dying and the psychedelic experiences?

Kyle Buller (07:20.65)

So the one thing I described as I didn’t have, I guess that traditional near death experience that people sometimes talk about that they go down a tunnel of light, they might meet some of their ancestors or angels or spirits of some sort. The way I sometimes describe it is it did feel like there’s like this orb of light around me. And it felt like maybe it was kind of like hovering over me in a sense. And, you know, I,

Sam Believ (07:41.679)

you

Kyle Buller (07:49.994)

I don’t know if that was more of a feeling. I don’t think I saw an orb of light, but it just felt like there was something there with me. I mean, this stuff is so hard to put into words and it has been quite a while over, yeah, I guess 20 years was my anniversary back in New Year’s of this year. But yeah, I described it as like, it felt like this orb of light, something was there with me. And then there was this thing where I was in my body, but I was also out of my body. And I felt like I was like everywhere at once.

Sam Believ (08:14.581)

you

Kyle Buller (08:19.198)

And yeah, it’s a really interesting comparison when we think about psychedelics and people say, you know, Madre spoke to me or Ayahuasca gave me this message or the mushrooms spoke to me. Like, where is that voice coming from? And how do we make sense of it? Sometimes you do have that visual representation of it. Like maybe with somebody with Ayahuasca, they’re interacting with the serpent, right? Or some other sort of entity that feels like the spirit of Ayahuasca or the mushrooms.

Um, and so there is something I think in our culture where seeing is believing, um, and not having maybe that visual representation creates a little bit of confusion of like, well, what was that? Was that me? Was that something else outside of me that was communicating? Um, right. Because the way we process information as humans, it’s either visual or really auditory. Um, you know, we do process information semantically and intuitively, but I think in our culture, logic has taken over and said, you know, you can’t always believe in.

right? And I think it causes a little bit of confusion of then, how do we describe these experiences, if we don’t have anything concrete to really, you know, go off of. So the first time I did psilocybin, I think I was like 19. And I had this experience, it was only off of two grams. So, you know, relatively low dose for most people are medium dose, like shouldn’t say low dose, but yeah, medium dose.

And I was out in the woods and kind of hiking around with a friend. And I felt this cold come over me. And I said, Oh, shit, like, I feel like I’m dying. Something, something’s going on. I remember, I looked at this rock in this middle of the trail. And I said, I’m gonna, I’m gonna go die on this rock. And this whole experience started to take off where I left my body.

I found myself in what I considered some sort of death Bardo. I didn’t know my name. I didn’t know anything about myself. I didn’t know what year it was. I didn’t know what I did for work. I was, there was all these little things I was trying to grab onto of like, who’s Kyle? How do I make sense of who I am? And I couldn’t make sense of it anything. I had no idea who I was in that space. And I came in contact with these little entities and,

Kyle Buller (10:43.188)

I found out later, like I heard Terrence McKenna, maybe like, I don’t know, six months or something later, talk about these self -transforming machine elves. And I said, oh man, other people have seen these things. And I’ve seen like, you know, depictions of people drawing them or artwork. And you know, it’s pretty similar about what I saw. And so I was back in this state and you know, there was a sense of familiarity. And I remember asking, or saying to myself, I feel like I’ve been here before.

these things looked at me said thousands of times and I said sorry I kind of scratched my head in a sense and said shit if I’ve been here thousands of times like this must be some sort of death bardo and you know maybe this is where we go when we die and so I think I asked that question I said is this a death bardo is this where we go when we die and they said more or less so and I said okay this is interesting I’ve been here thousands of times this might be some sort of death bardo maybe

this is the place where I went when I died or was coming close to death. And they said, yeah, more or less so. And I said, okay, I’m trying to do like reasoning in my head in this trip. And I asked the next question, well, you know, if this is the place where I went, like, where did all this information come from after my near death experience? Because I felt like I talked to somebody or something after that near death experience. And I…

didn’t have a way to rationalize it or make sense of it. And so I asked that question. And of course I got answered with the same answer, more or less so. So it was like the archetypal trickster, not giving you a straight answer. But there was something just really interesting about that. And it helped to relieve, I think, some of my anxiety and helped to provide some context. Whether or not this was all real or it’s all imagination, we can speculate on.

Sam Believ (12:36.469)

you

Kyle Buller (12:39.754)

States.

it had a big impact on me that it provided some context. Cause that was the thing that like, I guess really bothered me after I did have that near death experience of like, I don’t remember anything. Like I rem, there’s new information, the way that I describe it, it’s like, I woke up in the ICU with a new, a new map of my chest. And this was like the new operating system of the world in which I was going to live in. And I just kept thinking like, where the hell did that map come from? Like, where did this information come from?

So being able to go back into this state with the psychedelic, it reminded me so much of like that dying experience. And that just got me intellectually curious and fascinated of going, what’s going on here? How could I ingest something that grows from the earth that could replicate or feel like death all over again? And so ironically, I ended up picking up Dr. Rick Shrasman’s book, DMT, The Spirit Molecule. It had nothing to do,

with psychedelics or the word DMT. I don’t think I really knew what DMT was back then. Cause I went into this all pretty naive, but it was in the subtitle research into near death experiences. I forget what the full subtitle is, but it was that word near death experience. I said, yeah, let me pick this up. And so, you know, some of Strassman’s hypothesis is DMT is this molecule that’s released when we’re die, when we were born during near death experiences.

And once I started thinking about that, I was thinking, you know, this is interesting that psilocybin is essentially kind of like an orally active dose of DMT, right? It’s the structurally, it has a DMT structure, has this extra group of phosphates that helps it to break down through the liver and pass through the blood brain barrier. And I kept thinking, you know, if I could have an experience with DMT and Rick Strassman’s hypothesizing that DMT is this spirit molecule, then

Kyle Buller (14:40.424)

And it’s relating so much to my near death experience. Like there’s something fascinating here. And like, how do I make sense of this? So that just brought me more on an intellectual journey of curiosity of, you know, trying to ask more questions. I don’t think I’ve had any sort of answers as I started to get into the psychedelic world. And I’m sure maybe you relate that sometimes gets more complex as you go in.

Sam Believ (15:03.421)

Yeah, it gets way more confusing before you get some clarity and a lot of clarity that you get you can’t explain in words you just get the feeling. What it feels like it’s almost you’re trying to describe your near -death experience as if you needed some integration afterwards. It’s kind of like it was almost like a psychedelic experience and what the feeling you had is like you were kind of confused and that’s kind of where the integration could come in handy but I guess there was no such concept.

Kyle Buller (15:06.602)

Yeah… No…

Kyle Buller (15:19.05)

Totally.

Sam Believ (15:32.477)

interesting thing about what you’re saying about like there was no visions and it’s kind of in our society as you say now we’re so visually focused like no visions nothing happened and it happens a lot of time here at the retreat a lot of people come and they expect specifically visions and ayahuasca a lot of times can perform extremely deep work on you without you ever experiencing visions and we get people then going home thinking they have not connected

Kyle Buller (15:32.572)

No.

Kyle Buller (15:48.714)

Mm -hmm.

Sam Believ (15:58.013)

to the medicine and haven’t had the experience and you know their depression is completely gone so obviously the immense amount of work has been done but because they have felt no visions they might feel feel frustrated another thing I made a note here what you’re describing I’ve heard this said before is the most familiar unfamiliar feeling you’ll ever experience that that sort of space and I think I know what you’re talking about I’ve been there on different medicines and

Kyle Buller (16:19.336)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (16:26.077)

I don’t know about the self -transforming elves, but I’ve seen like small entities and when I got there they were like touching me with their fingers or whatever it was. It was kind of funny. Yeah, it’s like this this world of psychedelics or mystical world where you go you can go there naturally on psychedelics through breath work, which we’ll talk about later as well. But it’s like it feels so complex. It almost feels more complicated than this reality in a way.

Kyle Buller (16:34.466)

Yeah, yeah.

Kyle Buller (16:53.866)

Well, and that’s, it’s like interesting. You say that it’s like maybe more complicated than this reality or it feels like unfamiliar, but familiar. And another thing I’ve heard people say, and I know this to be true for myself, it’s more real than real, right? And so it’s like, you get these like weird kind of like paradoxes with, with the psychedelic space. Oh, I felt more real than real or like.

I feel like I’ve been here before and it feels so familiar, but also really unfamiliar at the same time. Like, what is this? And it does, it feels like we’re in this weird paradox when it comes to that, but sometimes it does. It feels sometimes more real than this actual reality. But yeah, what does that even mean at times?

Sam Believ (17:37.981)

Yeah, we can connect that back to your near -death experience, right? And you were saying you had that feeling where you’re going back home, you’re going back to the stars, whatever. And it kind of comes up a lot and also in some ayahuasca journeys. And I had more than 10 people from different parts of the world that haven’t read the same books describe that.

Kyle Buller (17:52.026)

Thank you.

Sam Believ (18:03.517)

Phenomenon to me which kind of made me form a new worldview and maybe you can sort of comment on it because I believe you must know a lot about it but the the premise is that we are souls that are living this life to experience this feeling or to learn something or to feel something or kind of like Unlimited consciousness, which is God breaking itself up into small pieces to sort of like

interact with itself to kind of entertain itself so and if you would look at it from the point of view of what you experience and going back and then of course it being more real than this real then that makes me very confused what do you think about that?

Kyle Buller (18:34.09)

Yeah.

Kyle Buller (18:46.838)

Yeah, I have heard like theories like that. And after my near death experience, I did have a lot of thoughts about that of like, you know, we are here for a reason. Cause if we were just untethered consciousness, I mean, we wouldn’t be able to experience any of this stuff. And I think sometimes part of the human experience is to be able to feel, to be able to be here, to be able to experience this because…

Sam Believ (19:12.527)

you

Kyle Buller (19:15.018)

Yeah, if we were just pure consciousness, you know, if we want to use that term God or the universe, right, sometimes people say it’s like we are the universe experiencing itself. It’s giving it like almost physical form to have experience. And that more real than real thing, it makes me think when we go into these states, we’re like kind of tapping back into and I guess we’ll just use that that term source energy, right? It’s like we’re tapping back into

maybe where we came from or what we essentially are. When I was dying, it was this voice saying, this physical life’s gonna cease to exist, but you’ll continue on. And I don’t know what that really means. Is Kyle, the soul or the spirit of Kyle gonna continue on? And am I gonna remember my life? Or is it that this energy that we all contain,

Sometimes I like to use the word psyche from from James Hillman. He talks about psyche being soul when we talk about the Greek translation of psyche. But is this life energy that flows through us, right? And is it that energy that’s going to go onward? And does it go back into the source? And it’s not tied to say ego or the individual. And that I don’t know. I don’t know. It’s like interesting to think about. But I think when we go into those realms and it feels

Sam Believ (20:27.869)

you

Kyle Buller (20:44.074)

more real than real life. It feels like we are tapping back into something so familiar that like it gets us in touch with maybe who we are in our true essence. And you know, this whole imbited experience is just, you know, one part of it. But I don’t know, it’s interesting to kind of speculate and think about, you know, and it’s so hard to put into words of like, yeah, what is that experience? Like, you know, how do I make sense of this?

Sam Believ (21:11.037)

Yeah. Well, I can definitely say that my fear of death after starting to work with psychedelics greatly diminished. Not that I would like to die. I would still do my best not to, but it’s kind of like if I would, I’m thinking, you know, if I.

Kyle Buller (21:18.466)

No.

Sam Believ (21:29.789)

back to those experiences and kind of like because now after seeing it for so many times and I’m telling you it’s people that never met each other they never read the same

Kyle Buller (21:37.898)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (21:39.133)

describe the same thing it kind of makes me form that worldview that yeah we’re going back somewhere and it’s kind of very comforting and even if it’s not true I think it’s a it’s good to have that worldview like what’s what’s the benefit of living your life being afraid all the time so I guess it’s it’s it’s beneficial from that point of view you know the the the ancient Greeks said if you die before you die you don’t

Kyle Buller (22:03.498)

Right.

Sam Believ (22:05.053)

this using psychedelics as this rehearsal, which kind of, you know, and you’re a great case study for this because you, you can attest that it felt very similar. But speaking about, you know, alter mind states, I know you’re a big fan of breath work and there’s some, some places you can go to on breath work alone. Can you talk a little bit about that? You know, where you started, how you started, why you went into that?

modality specifically. I know you wrote that these

Kyle Buller (22:35.038)

Yeah, yeah, I did. So I originally came across it. So I ended up doing an undergrad in transpersonal psychology at a little school in Vermont called Burlington College. Unfortunately, the school shut down in 2016. But I went there because I had this near death experience, some of these really potent psychedelic experiences. And I was really trying to like figure out what the hell was going on in my life. I was in what we would call like a spiritual emergence.

you know, this kind of psycho spiritual crisis. And I came across the work of Dr. Stanislav Grof. And I started reading his books, I think around 20 and 21. And I said, man, I, this is what I want to do with my life. You know, I want to like, you know, just dedicate my time to, to explore this type of stuff. And so I started researching transpersonal psychology and found this little school. And it was during my second semester there.

that they were offering a one credit weekend workshop in holotropic breathwork. And so holotropic breathwork is a technique that was developed by Stan and Christina Groff at Esalen. And for those that don’t know who Stan Groff is, he’s a Czechoslovakian American psychiatrist who’s a pioneer in LSD research. I think he’s had over 4 ,500 sessions with clients and pretty much wrote the manual book called LSD Psychotherapy and numerous other books.

And when he came over to America, and the war on drugs was happening, and all the research shut down, he ended up finding himself at Esalen, and they ended up developing this breathing technique, him and Christina, which really could help to foster these non ordinary states are what Stan likes to call these holotropic states of consciousness. And so

by just, well, no, I shouldn’t say by just. The Holotropic Breathwork framework is a little bit more holistic than I think just the breathwork. There’s five different components of it. And so that’s evocative music, focused body work, intensified breathing, expressive art and group process. And so by breathing, we can really induce these non -ordinary or holotropic states. And so I ended up,

Kyle Buller (24:52.106)

participating in all these holotropic breathwork sessions during my undergrad, studying with some teachers, Lenny Elizabeth Gibson. And they have kind of branched off from the holotropic breathwork world and have created their own training program. And we call it Dream Shadow transpersonal breathwork. So I’m trained in transpersonal breathwork. But, you know, there’s a lot of kind of crossover between the two techniques. And,

Yeah, so it’s a really powerful technique and modality. And I was pretty skeptical of it when I first came across it. I was like, I don’t think breathing is going to be like, you know, this, this intense. And I was completely wrong. I was completely blown away by the power of it. And that first breath work session continues to live in my body and in my psyche. And it feels like it’s actually been.

the one kind of driving force in a lot of my work in a sense. So I find it to be really interesting. You know, the near death thing and the psychedelics were really profound, but it’s also this breathwork experience that I think has stuck with me the most and has gotten me kind of on my path in a sense.

Sam Believ (26:08.925)

So yeah, for those who don’t know who Stanislav Graf is, he coined that quote, let me read it, the psychedelics are to the study of the mind, what the microscope is to biology and the telescope is to astronomy, which I very much agree to. And you know, it’s kind of like, he’s one of those superstars, one of the OGs of the psychedelic renaissance.

Kyle Buller (26:26.068)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (26:35.237)

the LSD types. You know, can you talk a little bit about, you say that there are states, the holotropic states, but can you maybe try and compare them to psychedelic states or what you have experienced in your near -death experience?

Kyle Buller (26:53.514)

So like comparing like the breath work to psychedelics and near death. So I’ll probably take a little bit of a, instead of trying to compare it, like taking this philosophical approach that this is all inside of you and doesn’t matter whether or not we’re using a psychedelic or a near death experience or whatnot. I think.

Sam Believ (26:56.989)

Yeah.

Kyle Buller (27:18.794)

essentially, we do get in touch with this core experience of who we are. And again, I’ll just kind of like use this word psyche. It’s like, these are all different vehicles and modalities to get in touch with psyche, or the universe in a way. And obviously, they have different flavors, right? So like, you know, if you drink ayahuasca, you might have the purgative aspect, there is a lot of folks that talk about the spirit of ayahuasca, and that comes into play.

Obviously you probably get a little bit of the visual sometimes, you don’t, right? You mentioned that people don’t always get visuals. And so there’s like this different kind of flavor. When I started to do breath work, my first breath work experience was a reliving of all these different experiences. And I found myself back in that death Bardo state with those entities all over again. And that’s what kind of got me so interested of going like, how the hell could I get back there by just breathing?

So we take this, I think, philosophical approach that all experience is inside of you and doesn’t always matter which tool you do it. And obviously, yeah, there’s gonna be different flavors because there’s the psychopharmacinetics of the drug and the substances that are having effects on your receptor sites where breathing might not be having that effect. But there is the possibility to get to that core experience.

And again, I’m just going to use the word psyche. I think that’s like the best thing. It’s like, there are different modalities to get in touch with psyche. And when you get there, you realize it’s all there. Like I’ve had full blown kind of psychedelic like experiences with breathwork. And it kind of got me thinking like, this is giving me an experience of myself. And I find that to just be like a really interesting thing. And

If you have a follow up, I am going to look for a quote and Stan really kind of emphasizes this a little bit when he talks about like his LSD D work. And so, well, I’ll read a few quotes. I just pulled this one up from, so Brigida Groff, this was, oh, okay, let me go back. So Stan wrote, he said, I wrote the best way of understanding LSD is to see it as an unspecific amplifier of psychological processes.

Kyle Buller (29:42.538)

If I had any remaining doubts about this point of view, they have all but been dispelled by our observations from Holotropic Breathwork. And I find that to be an interesting quote, because it’s really showing the power of breathwork by saying, I saw LSD as this unspecific amplifier, and we’re starting to see that in breathwork too, right? People are having this amplification of psyche through by breathing. And it…

without using a substance. And his current wife Brigitte Groff, she had this quote in a podcast that we did and she said, you know, in a way when you do psychedelics, there’s always that temptation to attribute the experiences to the substance. But when you do breath work, there’s not much to attribute. I mean, this is you, definitely. This is your psyche with a little breathing. So to find that people had access to psyche,

was again validating that it’s the psyche and not the substance. And, you know, it’s just like a pretty interesting theoretical framework to kind of start with that this is an experience of you. And I think that’s what the near death experience taught me too, was that all this is here in the present moment. And how do we get in touch with it?

yes, you know, we can use substances and stuff like that to amplify that because we’re so disconnected from it. But, you know, it is here in the present moment. And I’m just going to read one more quote here by Grof that’s like kind of, I guess, like touching on this this philosophy as well. So he says, so

give the same substance in the same dosage under the same circumstances, under the same lousy set and setting, which we had. Each of those people would have had different experiences to the point some of them called it the moments that they get in between tests. It was like a self analysis, like a drug assisted psychotherapy. Others were just unpleasant physical symptoms. Some of them had paranoid episodes or became hypomanic. And for some of them,

Kyle Buller (31:57.866)

it was even under those circumstances that they got glimpses of a static states that were very mystical. And at the same intra individual variability, if we took the same substance at different times, this phenomenology was completely different. At that point, I realized this was not psychopharmacology. We were not doing pharmacology because if you do pharmacology, you have some idea of what you’re getting. If you give people,

Apomorphine, you expect a lot of them will be vomiting. If you give them a hypnotic, you expect them to sleep. Whereas here, we had no idea what would happen. So I realized we were doing something much more interesting. We had a catalyst that made it possible to explore the depth of the human psyche. And I realized that people were not having quote unquote LSD experiences. They’re having experiences of themselves. I think that’s just like an important quote.

to really emphasize that this is you, this is your experience. And we have different modalities to get there. And if we look cross culturally, maybe from like an anthropological point of view, rites of passages, you know, people had really intense techniques to work with psyche, you know, whether that was through bloodletting, sensory isolation by isolating in a cave, extreme physical exhaustion, getting to these brinks of death.

by these really intense rites of passages and talking about these mystical experiences without a substance. And so I always like to really emphasize that there is, you know, other ways of getting there. And obviously they’re going to be a little different at times.

Sam Believ (33:36.743)

They also did it by lack of sleep or too much heat. We can get there in many ways. It’s very helpful to also remember that in the ceremony because it’s easy to be frightened by experience.

Kyle Buller (33:41.16)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Sam Believ (33:54.045)

when you see it’s something external coming to you, but when you understand that it’s your experience and at the end of the day it happens in your head and at the end of the day you’re the boss, it kind of helps to reframe it. So it’s very interesting. Yeah, it’s like, it’s almost as if we have, there’s a reality and we see a very narrow part of it and the rest of it exists. We just don’t have access to it because we have like,

Kyle Buller (34:08.232)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (34:19.805)

Blindfolds and psychoducts are kind of like those glasses that allow us to access this but this this is in us and we Are able to access it all the time. We just don’t know how but in a way Then it would be not a you know human existence. It would be something else and maybe maybe we’ll move through that broadband Across you know lives of our of our souls, but once again, we have no answers and what we can focus on is this bodily experience so

Kyle Buller (34:38.986)

Mm -hmm.

Kyle Buller (34:48.458)

Right. And I mean, I think there is something to like plant medicines like ayahuasca where there is a relationship between the plants, right? It’s like they are kind of communicating with us at times. And so I think even Stan took this little bit of a different approach and kind of backtracked on that idea that psychedelics are these non -specific amplifiers, but how do you take into consideration, you know, if Madre shows up, right? How do we understand that? Is that you or are we actually having a relationship with the plant?

Sam Believ (34:48.765)

Um,

Sam Believ (34:58.799)

you

Kyle Buller (35:18.204)

And I think there is something interesting there to explore. And I don’t know, curious to hear maybe some of your thoughts since like you live this every day.

Sam Believ (35:26.269)

I think the difference is that the LSD is a synthesized psychedelic, so it kind of lacks some of that. You know, it’s not Kikion, it’s not the traditional one, maybe it lacks the spirit, because in one of the previous episodes I interviewed Rachel Harris, and she talked about this time when they tried to do studies on ayahuasca and they freeze dried it to make sure the samples are all the same.

Kyle Buller (35:34.376)

Mm -hmm.

Sam Believ (35:51.485)

And the shaman, when he experienced that ayahuasca, he said that it likes the spirit. So he disagreed to continue in the study. So maybe there are certain preparations that have the spirit preserved and the others that don’t. That’s a thought that came to me. But then in the end of the day, maybe you can have your own experience where it’s just amplified, as you say, or maybe you can also have your own experience, plus there’s plant spirit, plus there’s…

other spirits because you know in this in this band you know if let’s say there’s this broadband of different levels of matter and experiences we’re not probably alone there and you know you talk about entities and there’s there’s other they have different names but yeah I the more I talk about it the more I get this strange feeling like I almost start to trip myself so let’s let’s change the topic.

Kyle Buller (36:23.402)

Mm -hmm.

Kyle Buller (36:49.098)

Yeah, yeah.

Sam Believ (36:52.189)

Speaking about breath work, maybe can you give us a short preview, like some five to 10 minute maybe technique that people can practice, not to send them to see entities, but maybe, whatever, wake up or relax or what do you got for us? I know you’re a master in breath work.

Kyle Buller (36:52.618)

fine.

Kyle Buller (37:13.674)

Yeah, so there’s lots of different ways to do it. And obviously the technique that I’m trained in is a much more in -depth kind of practice. Our sessions last for over three hours and it’s usually like a whole weekend type of thing. But I think it might be interesting if you’re not driving, if you’re just hanging out on your couch, you’re in a comfortable place. We can do a little kind of somatic meditation with breathing to also kind of…

Yeah, tap in to see how our breath like really impacts us. Yeah, yeah. So I just invite you and you know, you’re listening if you’re in a safe place to do so. If you want to close your eyes, you can close your eyes or keep your eyes open.

Sam Believ (37:46.885)

Beautiful, I’m excited.

Kyle Buller (38:02.154)

And just kind of start noticing how you’re breathing. What’s the cadence like?

Are you breathing shallow in your chest? Are you taking full deep breaths in your belly?

Kyle Buller (38:26.922)

So just kind of taking a moment to really tune in. How are you breathing right now?

Kyle Buller (38:40.586)

I’m just going to invite you to really start to turn your attention inward.

Kyle Buller (38:50.668)

I’m inviting you to take three deep breaths. So I’ll coach you through that. So when you feel ready, a nice big deep inhale through your nose.

I’m bringing the breath way down into your belly and holding it for as long as you want, exhaling through your mouth.

long slow deep exhale and then taking a moment to pause just notice the stillness between the inhale and the exhale.

feel ready another big deep inhale through your nose.

Bring it way down to your belly holding. And then when you feel ready, big exhale through your mouth.

Kyle Buller (39:45.898)

And again, just taking a moment to pause. Just noticing stillness between the exhale and inhale.

Kyle Buller (39:57.458)

noticing how your body might be responding.

And then when you feel ready, another big deep inhale.

Kyle Buller (40:08.336)

holding, exhaling through your mouth. And if you want to make a sigh or sound, you can do that.

Kyle Buller (40:21.994)

And you can return to your normal breath.

Kyle Buller (40:29.002)

as you turn inward, just notice, have things shifted for you.

Are you feeling maybe different feelings or sensations in the body?

Kyle Buller (40:53.29)

Just taking a moment to observe and be with whatever’s showing up.

Kyle Buller (41:08.04)

Next, I invite you to tune into the body a little bit more and see if you can notice a part of your body that’s calling your attention.

Kyle Buller (41:22.666)

It could be a tightness, it could be a feeling of relaxation, a hot or cold feeling. Maybe there’s an area that feels tingly.

Kyle Buller (41:48.682)

So just taking a moment to locate that in your body.

Kyle Buller (41:56.456)

Sometimes it’s in multiple places and that’s fine too. Just finding a focal point.

Kyle Buller (42:15.626)

just inviting you to place your hand over that feeling just to kind of you know focal focus on

Kyle Buller (42:27.498)

Maybe feeling the heat from your hand or just feeling the contact of your hand in that place.

Kyle Buller (42:43.178)

Just noticing if anything is shifted for you as you place your hand.

Kyle Buller (42:53.898)

Taking a moment to ask, why is this part of your body calling to you?

And what do you think it needs?

Kyle Buller (43:09.61)

And so we can work with this technique of amplification by using a deeper and faster breath. And so we’re just gonna experiment to kind of get you to play around with how different styles of breathing can really kind of impact us. So again, just kind of focusing on that area, your hand place there and inviting you to take some deeper and fuller.

breaths. And so that could look like through the nose out through the mouth in through the mouth out through the mouth. Taking a more kind of non directive approach with this and really kind of feeling into your body and feeling into your breath, what does it need? But this goal is to make it a little bit deeper and faster. So it could look sound or look like this if you’re on video.

Kyle Buller (44:23.594)

And you might notice yourself get a little dizzy, a little lightheaded. That’s fine. That’s totally normal. If it’s feeling a little too overwhelming, you can slow your breath down. What does it feel like to really amplify the breath in that part of your body? And sometimes it can be nice to focus on the emotion that’s stored there. So what does it feel like, say, for feeling like a little bit of anxiety and that’s

Sam Believ (44:34.959)

you

Kyle Buller (44:50.826)

I have my hand on my stomach in the stomach area. When does it feel like to really breathe into that?

Sam Believ (44:58.717)

you

Kyle Buller (44:59.082)

trying to bring it more to the surface.

Kyle Buller (45:10.25)

and really maybe following the process. Maybe that part of your body wants to move. Maybe it wants to make a sound. Maybe your hand there, maybe it wants a little kind of extra massage. I’m noticing the energy is moving as I give myself that gentle massage and yeah, I really have some emotion coming up and I want to explore that.

Sam Believ (45:36.957)

you

Kyle Buller (45:38.154)

And you can slow your breath down. You can continue with the breathing if that feels comfortable, really kind of tuning into your body. What does it need?

Kyle Buller (45:58.358)

So then we’re going to shift gears a little bit. So I’m going to invite you if you are continuing with the deeper fuller breaths to slow it down.

Kyle Buller (46:16.618)

So inviting you to take those slow, long, deep inhales, kind of like what we were doing at the beginning.

Kyle Buller (46:32.33)

And again, really kind of bringing the breath into that part of your body.

Kyle Buller (46:46.122)

you

Kyle Buller (46:56.266)

it feel like to relax that area of your body? Maybe you notice there’s a little bit more tension there.

Does it feel like to consciously relax that area with the slower long deep inhales and exhales?

Sam Believ (47:33.533)

you

Kyle Buller (47:49.642)

taking a moment to notice how those deeper faster fuller breaths that more activating breath was feeling in the

versus the slower, longer, deeper inhales and exhales are regulating the body.

Kyle Buller (48:13.642)

those fuller faster inhales really kind of start to activate our parasympathetic nervous system, which can sometimes be related to that fight or flight, right? It’s like really getting energy, it’s activating us versus the slower longer inhales and exhales, really kind of operating on that parasympathetic, what we call that rest and digest.

Kyle Buller (48:51.08)

And so being able to experiment and really explore how breath affects us can be actually really helpful within medicine sessions, within our own kind of breathwork sessions that we’re doing these longer kind of intensified breathing to help us stay with emotion and express emotion. So maybe we notice this feeling coming up that maybe we want to avoid.

Or does it feel like to breathe a little bit deeper and faster into that area to activate it? And then maybe it’s getting too much and then we can slow it down. And so being able to be curious around how breath is helping to modulate our system as material is surfacing, that can be really, really helpful.

Sam Believ (49:25.839)

you

Kyle Buller (49:42.218)

So I just invite everybody will close out with another deep three deep breaths. So when you feel ready, another big deep inhale.

exhaling and again if you want to make a sound or a sigh on the exhale you can do so.

Another big deep inhale when you feel ready. Way down to the belly. Exhaling.

Kyle Buller (50:13.386)

One more big deep inhale.

Kyle Buller (50:23.466)

And then if you wanna just slowly start to come back, do some stretching, some movement.

Sam Believ (50:34.493)

It was really nice.

Sam Believ (50:39.357)

really nice because you kind of go through the whole cycle speeding up and then quieting down. I some tension in my neck and feel it’s less tense now so hope you guys enjoyed that as well I mean I didn’t expect it was almost a complete session what more than 10 minutes thank you so much

Kyle Buller (50:47.978)

Yeah, there’s so many different techniques. Some people do what’s called box breathing, which is like four in, hold for four, or you could do five, six, whatever feels comfortable, and then exhaling, but you’re keeping it pretty equal. Sometimes people do, I think it’s like a seven, eight, five breath, so like seven in, exhale for eight, hold for eight.

five and then all over again. Then you have stuff like Wim Hof breathing, which is like these cycles of the intensified breathing. I think it’s like for 30 or I forget, I haven’t studied Wim Hof too much. But that’s like a breaths and then hold. So you have like, yeah, you have that breath retention and then the exhale.

Sam Believ (51:31.933)

I think it’s 30 to 40 breaths. Similar to temple. So that Wim Hof breathing, for example, I could never meditate. Like I would suck at meditation. You know, the guided ones would be easy because you can just focus on them. But when there’s nothing to focus and you need to let your mind be empty, I think it’s mindfulness meditation. I would really struggle. However, I noticed when I would do…

one set of wimho breaths because it’s normally three sets of 30 and then the retaining of the breath I could meditate so much easier I don’t know what’s the mechanism of it maybe maybe you can understand but since then here at the retreat before every ceremony we do this breath work a couple sets of that and then guided meditation to put people in that state so can can you maybe talk to us a little bit about how

Kyle Buller (52:08.264)

Hmm.

Sam Believ (52:29.423)

psychedelic work and also how can psychedelic work help with breath work?

Kyle Buller (52:29.594)

Yeah, so like as I was mentioning, just then, like the way there’s this common question that I always get is, you know, can you do psychedelics and do breath work at the same time? And my answer is, yeah, you probably can, but it’s not going to be the same technique. So the way it

I’ve really integrated breath work into my psychedelic journeys. It’s really about nervous system regulation for me. So in the breath work tradition I come from, that deep intensified breathing is the thing that’s getting you activated. My analogy is like, it’s a bird, you’re getting into this kind of non -ordinary state, and then you’re using the breath to kind of modulate your experience or to navigate it a little bit. With psychedelics, you don’t need to do that intensified.

breathing, you know, the psychedelic is the vehicle that gets you there. So when you find yourself in those states, how could you use like a technique like that, that we just kind of did and be open to exploration. So say if we’re in the depths of, well, I’ll give you an actual example from an Ayahuasca experience that I had. So I was at a retreat and it was the last ceremony and I was,

reliving my near death experience. I found myself back in the cat scan machine, I was physically shaking and cold. And I was kind of watching myself die. Usually, my nervous system will kind of get in this fight or flight response of, oh, shit, I need to get out of here. Like I’m dying. I, you know, I have a hard time maybe like sticking with the process, you know, this fear and paranoia.

Kyle Buller (54:18.57)

really kind of integrating all my years of breath work and somatic work is, okay, this fear is coming up. I’m actually watching myself go through this. How do I express what’s going on? So I allowed myself to just physically shake. I was actually, you know, allowing myself to feel that cold. We talk about this concept of double bookkeeping. You know you’re on the mat. You know you’re like in the session.

you’re also somewhere else. Maybe you’re again, you’re reliving this near death experience that I’m going through. So using the breath to keep the psyche and the body engaged. I talked about this concept of like, when that typically happens, it’s all coupled, right, you have a trauma, and this kind of psychic narrative and the body, it’s all coupled together. And that really gets activated in psychedelic work. And sometimes people have a really hard time.

really kind of navigating that because it is super coupled together. And so it’s like, I’m dying. I need to get out of here, right? Like my nervous system is getting activated. This is actually happening. I need to get up and go to the bathroom or distract myself. So I don’t have to confront that. So I think what breath work helps us do is almost uncouple what’s going on there. We’re paying attention to the body. I’m noticing I’m actually activated. So how can I do maybe a slower, deeper breath?

and just regulate my nervous system. And then also let that I call it like that psychic narrative unfold. I’m actually watching myself die and letting that narrative and that vision unfold while I’m breathing and staying with my body. And so that would be an example of like, say, I need to use a calming breath because my nervous system is like, it’s kind of getting outside what we call in somatics, like the window of tolerance.

It’s starting to get outside of that window of tolerance. I need to slow my breath down. I need to focus on the experience that’s going on, focus where it is on my body and take a couple deep breaths into that to help me kind of regulate my system. There’s other times when emotions can really come up that we want to amplify it, right? Sometimes that could be with like anger, for example, like there’s a frustration. There’s frustration in my body. I’m going to start breathing into it pretty heavily.

Kyle Buller (56:39.016)

I’m noticing that that frustration is anger. And you know, obviously, this is very context dependent. Maybe you can’t scream at retreats. We really kind of encourage this stuff in breathwork just because that container can hold it a little bit more. But how can I maybe amplify that feeling of frustration in the body? Or another example, and maybe you’ve seen this quite often. The frustration is tied to nothing is happening. So somebody is in a session, nothing’s happening, they’re agitated.

They’re like frustrated. So what would it be like to really close your eyes, tune into that, find that frustration in your body? I’m noticing I’m not getting any visuals. I notice like, you know, nothing’s happening.

Kyle Buller (57:25.386)

take a couple deep breaths, how do we activate that frustration some more and really tap into those emotions, right? There’s that concept or saying, you really got to feel it to heal it. So most of the time we’re thinking about that frustration as more of a cognitive thing. I’m frustrated, this is boring, nothing’s happening versus I’m frustrated and I really need to express this frustration. I need to embody this emotion and that deeper, that deeper, faster breathing can really help to activate that a little bit more.

And so that’s an example of like how I would use that in sessions to actually go deeper into my sessions where I can regulate my body. If I’m hitting fight or flight, I need to get out of here. Or, you know, another way to use activating breath is if somebody’s shutting down and they’re kind of going into a little bit of that freeze state, right? Maybe like that fear panic comes in and we need to get that breath going, right? We notice the breath is starting to…

We’re starting to, and that’s another thing to pay attention to, body posture. Am I curling up right now? Right? And if you’re watching on video, I mean, you could do this right now. Just notice how your posture is, and maybe you’re hunched over. You know, a lot of us are like sitting at desks all day staring at computers and we’re hunched over. What does it feel like to drop the shoulders back and open up the chest and take some deeper breaths? And just notice like how that affects you. Like,

Hunching over and breathing versus shoulders back, breathing.

Kyle Buller (59:05.77)

you know, when my shoulders are back and my chest is open, I actually feel a little bit more grounded. So that’s another thing to pay attention to is body posture and how that affects our breathing and our affect as well.

Sam Believ (59:11.901)

Yeah Yeah, what you’re what you’re describing, you know what you feel people feel sometimes in a ceremony that frustration of not connecting yet we we have to deal with it a lot because people People expect ayahuasca being like other psychedelics where you take it and it kind of gets you there and there is no

is no in between but ayahuasca tends to be very selective and especially in the first few ceremonies it’s very mild it’s almost like you need you have the set and you have setting but there’s another one which is skill my chief facilitator Mark likes to use this method it’s like the third ass is a skill where you need to learn how to get connected and I believe what you’re describing and with this breath work it’s it’s a part of that skill because you can

Kyle Buller (01:00:04.91)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (01:00:11.645)

you like, you know, you can be in the car and sort of drive in the passenger seat. And what you’re describing is like with the breath work and with that knowledge that hopefully people are getting from listening to this podcast and other episodes here is going to teach them how to be more skillful. And then the results with their psychedelic work can be better. And that’s, that’s very important, you know, trying to, um,

people come you know from different countries they come here and we want them to get the most out of it because obviously you spending time and money on doing that and then it’s interesting that you describe people running away from their experience trying to like walk walk or go to the bathroom that happens a lot as well when uh… i i describe it as like you know your ego doesn’t want to go away and it’s uh… i was just trying to dissolve it and then starts fighting back and it

Kyle Buller (01:00:54.026)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Sam Believ (01:01:04.605)

you cannot run away from yourself. And then normally what happens when we notice a doing that, we try to calm them down because…

forces it and there’s an explosion in the form of like you know somebody just going through a really really really rough one you described you know you’re you’re living you your situation is in a scanner and feeling the coldness so obviously there was some trauma there stored in your body and I know you talk about the this mechanism of trauma being stored in your body.

Kyle Buller (01:01:16.36)

Yeah.

Kyle Buller (01:01:20.554)

you

Kyle Buller (01:01:34.474)

Mm -hmm.

Sam Believ (01:01:43.119)

So how can you know, how can people release that with with breath work?

Kyle Buller (01:01:49.802)

Yeah, I think that was the one thing that made me stick with breath work. So in my early years, when I was working with psychedelics, I felt like I was doing a lot of like cognitive processing and intellectualizing. And I would even say a little bit of like spiritual bypassing. If I can just keep going back into these realms, maybe I’ll be able to like figure things out, right? And so I was chasing after an experience. It wasn’t until I started to…

Sam Believ (01:02:13.565)

you

Kyle Buller (01:02:18.57)

do breath work and start going to these workshops and get training in it, that I started to realize I was actually not dealing with my emotions in a way, right? Like I was using psychedelics as a way to escape in a sense of like, I’m going home, I get to relive this really awesome intense experience all the time.

But it wasn’t, yeah, until I started to do breath work that I was like, oh my God, like I haven’t been processing any of this trauma in my body. And so at least our modality really allows folks to express that. And that can be really scary for expression. I know in group psychedelic work, it’s a little bit harder to have expression because we’re a little bit more in these vulnerable open states and it can really trigger people in a different way. It seems like in the breath work experience,

Sam Believ (01:02:54.877)

you

Sam Believ (01:03:00.641)

you

Kyle Buller (01:03:10.526)

people are able to tolerate catharsis in a little bit different of a way. And so, you know, an example is like that frustration. It’s like, okay, like in a breath work session, I can breathe, breathe and I can pound my pillow, you know, nobody’s gonna stop me from doing that. And I’m actually getting it out of my system, you know, and I learned how to, I guess really stick.

with sensations in my body. And so when we’re talking about say physical trauma, for example, I noticed this pain and I’m allowing myself to feel that and maybe it starts with shaking, right? So that’s a way the nervous system discharges trauma is shaking, but shaking is also scary for a lot of folks. Cause what if I start shaking and it gets out of control and I can’t control it, right? So also really kind of trusting the intuition of the body.

Sam Believ (01:03:40.189)

you

Sam Believ (01:04:07.107)

you

Kyle Buller (01:04:07.754)

And so for that example that I gave of being in the CAT scan machine back in the Zayawaska experience, I knew I couldn’t really verbally express stuff or have big physical catharsis, but I could do these little things of sticking with my somatic sensations by breathing, but then I also allowed myself to shake and shiver. And so I was sitting there on the mat curled up going, like actually,

feeling what I was feeling like in the CAT scan machine. And that’s a way that the body releases trauma and like that stored energy in the body. But sometimes it can be really kind of like frightening if you aren’t prepared for that or haven’t done any of that work before. You know, what if your leg just all of a sudden wants to shake and convulse, right? Sometimes you’re like, am I having a seizure? Like what’s going on here? But a lot of say the neuroscience or the somatic,

psychology, you know, they looked at like Peter Levine and a few of those other pioneers like looked at like animals, for example, when an animal goes through a really traumatic experience, they go off and they shake, right, they shake their nervous system off. And then they go back at it with whatever they’re doing. Humans, we don’t do that, you know, we got this thing that makes us think and intellectualize. And so we tend to will sit there and ruminate about an experience, what just happened.

Sam Believ (01:05:11.023)

you

Kyle Buller (01:05:36.714)

God, we’re trying to cognitively process. So allowing your body to express it is really important. But also, it’s important to do that in a safe container and within your window of tolerance, because sometimes people can overdo it, they’re not ready for it, their nervous system, you know, it’s a little too much for their nervous system. So we also got to think about safety when it comes to that. But that’s where breath work and doing some of this stuff in preparation can be really important.

Sam Believ (01:05:45.213)

you

Sam Believ (01:06:02.813)

you

Kyle Buller (01:06:06.602)

So they’re starting to practice some of these skills. And I appreciate your metaphor there about like, maybe we’re typically in the passenger seat and not the driver’s seat. And I think by having resources like this, it puts us a little bit more in the passenger seat or in the driver’s seat. And it gets us to engage in the process a little bit more than just being completely passive in it.

Sam Believ (01:06:31.005)

Yeah that shaking, shaking study that you mentioned, I have heard about it on a podcast somewhere and now whenever I drive and I get into like a situation where it’s like, you know, you get startled because something might have happened, I consciously shake it off.

I don’t know if it helps or not, but I’ve kind of made it a habit.

Kyle Buller (01:06:57.066)

Peter Levine, yeah, I’ll just make a quick little story. But Peter Levine who develops somatic experiencing, he shares in one of his books, The Waking Tiger, something like that, I always forget the title of it. He got hit by a car and he’s talking about the presence of somebody. So the first person that came over was like, oh my God, are you okay? Like really overwhelming him in a sense. And then he had to tell the person to back off and then a doctor came over with a much more kind of calming presence, didn’t ask a bunch of questions.

Sam Believ (01:07:04.541)

you

Kyle Buller (01:07:26.282)

So he was able to regulate, but he shared the story when he got in the ambulance, he was allowing himself to shake and shake the trauma off. And the EMTs were like, what are you doing? He’s like, I’m trying not to get PTSD. I’m trying to let my body process this stuff versus just thinking about it. So yeah, it can be really important.

Sam Believ (01:07:47.677)

So shake it off guys if you get into a situation like this. Kyle, we’ve been going for more than an hour and honestly I still have enough questions for one more episode. So maybe we can do another one maybe in presence next time. So it’s been very interesting.

Kyle Buller (01:07:50.602)

Yeah.

Kyle Buller (01:07:59.134)

Cool, that’d be fun.

Kyle Buller (01:08:04.938)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (01:08:13.821)

about you and learn more about, you know, maybe get your breath work course. I know you also train people to be facilitators, right? And…

Kyle Buller (01:08:23.446)

Yeah, we’re trying to change a little bit of the language as regulations are starting to come online here in the States. So yeah, you can find me, I have a person, like you can find me personally on like Instagram or my own website, Setting Sun Wellness, settingsunwellness .com or Setting Sun Wellness on Instagram. Or you can follow us at Psychedelics today. That’s where most of my work is nowadays and where I spend probably the most time.

Sam Believ (01:08:35.933)

you

Kyle Buller (01:08:49.61)

Um, and yeah, Sam, as you’re pointing to, it’s like training. So yeah, we have a 12 month training program called vital. Uh, it’s in psychedelic harm reduction integration and psychedelic informed practice. So really trying to train people on the importance of preparation in like different types of interventions, somatics, we have breath work retreats that we offer. Um, and so people could find that at vitalpsychedelictraining .com or you can find it at psychedelics today and really psychedelics today anywhere.

Sam, this has been fun. I really appreciate it. And this has been a really, really fun podcast for me.

Sam Believ (01:09:23.773)

Yeah, it was fun for me as well. Kyle, thank you so much for coming. Thank you for teaching us Bread Fork. And yeah, we’ll have to do another one because there’s, I still have much and it’s a compliment because I sometimes run out of questions quickly. So thank you, Kyle.

Kyle Buller (01:09:32.628)

Oh, thank you. I feel that. Thank you so much.

In this episode of AyahuascaPodcast.com host Sam Believ has a conversation with Joe Tafur. Joe Tafur is the author of Fellowship of the river, one of the best books about Ayahuasca.

We talk about how Ayhauasca works both from spiritual and medical perspective, about importance of healthy scepticism, differences between different types of Ayahuasca – Colombian Yage and Peruvian Ayahuasca, why healing is a state of receptivity, how science and spirituality are slowly merging.

Find more about Joe Tafur at http://www.drjoetafur.com

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:03.93)

Hi guys and welcome to ayah As always with you host Sam Believ. Today I’m going to interview Joe Tafour. Joe Tafour is an author. He wrote the book Fellowship of the River. Joe is a medical doctor, speaker and he’s also a curandero. So three different people recommended me to interview Joe and finally we made it happen. So I’m very excited. Joe, welcome to the podcast.

Joe Tafur (00:33.342)

Yeah, thanks for having me, Sam. Nice to be here.

Sam Believ (00:37.126)

Joe, so you in my opinion are a perfect person to bridge those two worlds, you know, modern medicine and shamanism, you know, Amazonian shamanism. But before we go into that, can you tell people how did you end up going from being a doctor to being a curandero?

Joe Tafur (00:59.102)

Yeah, I kind of was, I, in medical school, I got depressed, you know, and I was looking for help. And I was always interested in integrative medicine, alternative medicine. I wanted to be part of that eventually, but I was still, you know, had to go through the training and I ended up going to a peyote ceremony in Arizona.

here at this place called the Peyote Way, which is open to people to go and have an experience they call the Spirit Walk. And I had that experience and…

It was a big deal. You know, it really, really helped me. It really shifted things for me and very rapidly. And I just felt like, wow, that was amazing. This kind of plant spirit medicine approach and the ceremonial approach and the link to the kind of the nature and the ancestral traditions. And so I was very curious about that. And I stayed curious about that. And I returned to that ceremony a few times through the rest of my training. Not very many times, a few times over the course of the next few years.

And then my family is from Colombia. You know, my parents, all my family is Colombian. And I knew about Ayahuasca. I knew my family’s not from the jungle, but they knew about it. They heard about it. And I had family friends that were connected to it. And so I knew that existed. And I thought, wow, this is how peyote works for me. And this is what happens with that. I just had this growing curiosity, you know, to see what was that? What’s that like? And.

I knew I wanted to go try it one day. And so I had decided to do that and I waited. I waited till I was done with my training and I had more opportunity and I met somebody that at the time, I went the first time in 2007. And at that time, I don’t know from my family in Columbia, they were nervous about me as an American going into the Amazon there. It’s a little more trouble, a little more problems there. I didn’t have any contacts there personally.

Joe Tafur (03:03.626)

So I had an opportunity to go to Peru with Shopeebles in Peru through people that I knew. And I went and I entered ceremony there and I had a huge experience. You know, I had a very big experience and that made me more curious. And I saw what the kind of healing that was happening there at the center. And as a doctor, I was very impressed. And so I started going back, you know, I started going back and I said, hey, if you bring a group, you don’t have to pay, you know, why don’t you bring some people? So I started bringing groups.

and then eventually become friends with one of the healers, you know, Ricardo Maringo. And he says, Hey, I want to start my own center. You know, why don’t you, why don’t you join us? Why don’t you help us? And at that time I was very interested in doing that. And so I wasn’t necessarily thinking of going down the path of becoming ayahuasca or curandero. I kind of had enough of all my training, you know, with medical and everything. It was just like, okay, I don’t really want to go through anything more like that.

But then he kind of convinced me and as part of working there, I went through the training alongside him, you know, and I enjoyed it and I liked it. And I was very fascinated by it. So that’s how.

Sam Believ (04:18.854)

Well, as I listened to you, I realized we have some similarities. I also, my journey also started with depression and I never planned to start a retreat. It kind of happened to me as well. I guess that’s just how it works in this world. So you worked with Ayahuasca in Peru, right? But I think you did end up venturing to Colombia eventually.

Joe Tafur (04:44.83)

Yes, yeah, no, I’ve been working in Columbia as well and running retreats with my friend and colleague there, Sochi Pukuru and Sasai Ma. And so she trained in the Amazon, but she’s from Tolima, Columbia.

Sam Believ (05:00.842)

Yeah, because you’re from Colombia, but I am in Colombia. And for some reason I’ve wanna talk to the assume I know you. They’re like, oh, you must know Joe. You must know Joe. And this is why I’m interviewing. So my question is, a lot of people ask me, in Colombia, ayahuasca is called Jahe. It’s a very similar medicine, but there are very minor differences. Have you noticed personally,

Joe Tafur (05:11.234)

Yeah. Right.

Joe Tafur (05:19.383)

to be.

Sam Believ (05:28.546)

What is the biggest difference in your opinion between Colombian ayahuasca or Peruvian ayahuasca?

Joe Tafur (05:34.958)

Yeah, I mean, I think it’s…

Joe Tafur (05:39.89)

It’s basically the same plants, you know, so you’re talking about different plants in a different region. So that’s going to have a different energy a little bit, you know, being from a different place, just like the people from this place to that place, you know, they’re all humans, but they have a different flavor, you know, influenced by the land, the soil, the wind, the sun, you know, like the wine and everything else. So I think it’s

I think it’s more subtle in the sense that there’s some people that would really talk about the big difference or they’re very focused on the differences or they’re very focused on the substance. But I think that within Columbia, there’s going to be a wide range of Yahei, you know, from different practitioners from different preparations, very wide, you know, same as true in Peru.

And that being said, it’s still, yaje, it’s still ayahuasca made from the plant. So, you know, I think well-prepared, well, um, carried through. It can be helpful. You know, I don’t know. I don’t distinguish it so much. I think for me, sometimes they say they, it depends on you. It depends on who you talk to. Some Colombian yajasero will say, it’s not uncommon to hear that they say, Oh, the shipibos are adding a lot of chacruna.

They want more visions. They want it to be stronger like that. We prefer it more purgative, stronger than the ayahuasca vine. You know, you hear comments like that, but it depends. You know, I think it really depends. And some of those comments are not coming from like the most wide exposure. You know, they maybe, maybe they never even met a ship people person when they say things like that, you know.

Sam Believ (07:05.454)

Mm-hmm.

Sam Believ (07:19.926)

Mm-hmm.

Sam Believ (07:26.462)

Yeah, it’s interesting that people when they think about shamans or indigenous people, for some reason they think they’re completely saint and they have no emotions, but in reality I also notice they tend to be a little bit territorial about those things. They want to believe that their medicine is the best, which I think is just part of our human nature. What I’ve heard is that Peruvian ayahuasca lasts a little longer and Colombian ayahuasca

tends to be a little more intense, but less, a little less. So I’ve never tried proven that I was. Yeah.

Joe Tafur (08:02.042)

I heard the other way. I think that I was guy drink from, from my friend from, from Sochi and that she gets from Columbia and Amazon. I would say a lot of times it lasts longer, you know, than what I’m drinking in Peru. It depends. You know, I just thought it’s just, I just don’t think it’s, it’s not easy to generalize something like that.

Sam Believ (08:18.83)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (08:23.294)

interesting also that you use the wine analogy that’s the analogy I like to use I like to say it’s kind of like Cabernet and Sauvignon you know it’s still red wine but you know some people might say you know it’s disrespectful to compare those two things we have it the everything affects it the soil the weather so as a medical doctor you know you observe healing with ayahuasca and I know you work with other psychedelics you know what do you probably you’re one of the better

Joe Tafur (08:37.538)

That’s right.

Sam Believ (08:52.99)

What does that happen? How does ayahuasca healing work?

Joe Tafur (08:59.306)

Well, I think that it depends, you know, but one of the goals, what I say, that the spiritual healing that, you know, the tradition talks about is like an easier way for the Western person to see where that kind of, I don’t know, sometimes it makes more sense to them is, is emotional healing, you know, but there’s a big emotional processing shift that can happen for people.

So helping people. And then that emotional processing shift, there’s also other like Western concepts that people can relate to, like regulating your nervous system, you know, that the person is not as triggered or not as burdened by past conditioning. You know, things that condition them, traumas that condition them that.

Maybe they didn’t serve them to adjust, to adapt to certain kinds of things that they went through. And so then as they come into healthier circumstances or healthier environments, still that stuff from the past is still with them. So it’s like clearing and cleaning, you know, the energies of the past and opening yourself up to a more

a new opportunity, a chance to relearn some things that maybe you didn’t learn so well. It’s like a new opening, a new, there’s many aspects to it. It’s very complicated and the possibilities are very wide ranging. So there’s some stuff on your brain, there’s stuff in your body, there’s stuff in your emotional wellbeing, there’s part of it that is spiritual that a lot of people would…

think of in those terms or describe in those terms. So it depends, you know, it’s complicated.

Sam Believ (10:50.41)

It’s a big question, I understand that, but for example, medically speaking, most of the active molecules in ayahuasca, they’re out of your system within 12 hours, but sometimes the change stays for you for the lifetime. What do you think happens there?

Joe Tafur (11:09.546)

Well, something’s changing in your body. Something’s rearranging, something’s reorganizing. So you’re allowing an opening, you know, let’s say like a bigger neural plasticity, perhaps, an opening for your neural networks to reorganize or for different parts of your kind of wiring, your patterning within your physical body, within your being, that is going to be given the opportunity to kind of become plastic again.

You know, what was kind of settled and kind of stuck in a rut or in a routine in a set way gets an opportunity to reorganize. And so, you know, if the healing is good, if the transformation, if there’s a transformational healing, then there would be some kind of reorganization within the system, you know, even at the physical level.

Sam Believ (12:04.138)

It’s painfully difficult to describe Ayahuasca healing without using any spiritual terms or talking about spiritual side of it. Can you now explain it again but as a curandero?

Joe Tafur (12:19.934)

As a curandero, then you’re you know, the way I talk about it in the books and stuff is just, you know, and with the Western perspective is mixing the two is just, you know, there’s an emotional dimension to your well-being, you know, that has energetic implications. You know, there’s that’s a way to talk about it. That’s what we feel. That’s what we experience. And so there’s energy.

that we carry within us, you know, from trauma, from things that we’ve been through. And so releasing that energy is important. Cleaning and clearing that energy, processing that energy is important to help kind of remove blockages, you know, and the flow of being within ourselves. And in that same sense, that the spirit can help us to do that.

that the spirit, tuning to the spirit, connecting to the spirit can open us to a resource and that would help someone be able to work through in those processes, you know, for example, somebody working through.

traumas of their early childhood, you know, and being guided by ayahuasca to, you know, go through a healing around what happened to them as a child or go through a healing and how they relate to their parents, you know, like that, that context within the spiritual realm, how people would kind of say, Oh, that’s not real or, Oh, they just were there, you know, the challenge is their, their brain, but then emotionally it was real.

The person had a significant shift within them and a felt shift, an energetic shift that is very real to them. And even though there is a great mystery behind the way some of it happens, still the rubber hits the road at some point. So the mystery, nobody really understands the mystery completely. That’s why it’s a mystery. So we engage with the mystery. We work with the mystery. But we don’t have to be, it doesn’t have to be defined.

Joe Tafur (14:39.978)

you know, for us to be able to draw upon it to help. And so as a curandero, like then, you know, different traditions are different. Inga, I’m not familiar so much. And should people tradition? It’s with master plants, you know, that you train and you learn from the plants of the forest that they’re going to help guide the education around how to work with people in ceremony, how to help them.

you know, facilitate like healing within their energy being in their energy body, within their emotional body, within their emotional being. And so that is an intuitive process, you know, that’s guided through kind of traditional education that again, whether people believe it in or they don’t believe in it, it just doesn’t seem to matter, actually, you know. Um, and so there’s something there, there’s something mystical.

So the curandero side is open to the mysterious elements of the practice and of the healing.

Sam Believ (15:44.586)

I think there is room for healthy amount of skepticism because in this sort of new world of new age spirituality there’s a lot of things that I don’t think are real but working with the Alaska for several years especially observing you know thousands of people go through their process I definitely stretched my skepticism quite a bit and included terms now like energy

Sam Believ (16:14.48)

but five years ago or so, but nevertheless I do believe they’re true.

I think that it’s a complete picture with both spiritual and physical, energetical and physical and it’s hard to explain something with one side or another. It has to be a complete explanation. Same comes with the way plants themselves work on you. You know, part of Ayahuasca healing is physical purge and it can be explained. Another part is very spiritual. What are your thoughts on?

the effort by a medical establishment now to sort of separate those medicines, the spiritual part of it from the physical part of it and just kind of make a molecule that tries to fix you but take away the spiritual side of it.

Joe Tafur (17:05.066)

Yeah, I mean, it’s not a very impressive approach. You know, so like you said, you know, you came with your mentality and your ideas and your skepticism, which is good, you know, the wise skepticism. You want to be skeptical. It’s intelligent to be careful. But then you’re there and you observe and you get more involved and you see the results, you know, and you see the benefit of incorporating these other elements into what’s being done with those people, you know, at your center.

It’s not being done to, I don’t know, for the benefit of the healers, just to say, because they believe in it and they like to hear themselves talk about things like that. You know, they could they could be sure they can be extra superstitious. You can bring elements to it that maybe aren’t as crucial or important. But still, there’s you’re saying it yourself, like you’ve been there for a few years and you say, well, if you can’t leave this part completely out of it.

So then they of course come to the pic to the party the way you, you know, I mean, without just saying that’s how they’re showing up, you know, basically, you could say inexperienced. And so they come with their whatever mechanical model of the world and, you know, basically sometimes an arrogance, you know, with that energy and in general, a lot of times what you see and maybe you’ve seen this there at your center.

That that rigid kind of mental framework a lot of times is protecting, you know, kind of an emotional vulnerability, you know, to really explore like the spiritual dimension. There is a vulnerable part of yourself that you have to experience. You know, that’s true.

And so if the person is not ready to do that, and they don’t wanna do that, and they say, no, we don’t have to do that, you don’t have to do that, no, no. Sometimes it’s because they’re guarding that vulnerability. And so it just, in many cases, it’s a matter of time for them to be held in the right kind of way so that they can feel the safety.

Joe Tafur (19:28.726)

to explore that vulnerability and kind of come to that, oh wow, that’s actually part of this. So I mean, we have to have compassion for that perspective. I don’t know how threatening that perspective is, you know, to actual the practice, because so far all they have is like a lot of talk, you know, they don’t have anything to back up what they’re saying.

They’re just telling people, oh, shouldn’t it be like this? How come it’s not like this? We should be able to do it just with the molecules. Okay, you know, go ahead. Like, you know, what’s stopping you? And so I think that it kind of remains to be seen. And so I think there’s a little funky thing where there’s an arrogance in the air from that side that’s making it sound like it’s so convincing where they’re coming from. But I think if we really look at the evidence,

It’s like, okay, there’s room for healthy skepticism over what they’re saying. If we’re honestly skeptical, well, then we should be skeptical of that. Like, you, where is this that you’re talking about that you know how to do this? You know, are the people flying from all over the world to go out to the jungle, to, to meet you, to find, to, to receive from what you’re giving them? Or is it just like a laboratory idea on a white paper to raise investment?

Is that what it is? Because if it probably that’s what it is, because I don’t see all the people going to so far, it may become more. I’m open to the idea that it could be much more. But I think we should we can be skeptical that so far we’re still waiting to hear what they have to say.

Sam Believ (21:11.051)

I like something you said in the other podcast that they’ve tried it before to separate the medicine from the spirituality and what they ended up with was the antidepressants and we all know how it works or doesn’t work.

Joe Tafur (21:21.804)

Right.

Joe Tafur (21:25.298)

Right. Yeah. I mean, that’s and that’s what that’s like. And so why did they come up with antidepressants or what? Yeah, it’s a it’s a it’s a business concept. You know, they’re not it’s if you’re selling an idea business idea. Sure. You know, you want to talk it up and say, hey, I think we can do this. And I think we can do that. But. That may not be the case, you know, it might be a flop.

If it’s just a business idea, if it’s not rooted in actual practical experience with medicine and healing, then it might just be a flop, you know, like a new any other new business idea.

Sam Believ (22:02.242)

Yeah, it can actually can also be hurt for long term. Like some antidepressants unfortunately are. I mean, they’re a good tool for a lot of people in desperate situations, but they don’t seem to get rid of the core of the issue. Regarding.

Joe Tafur (22:19.402)

And they can do damage over time. Some of those medications, you know, really prolonged use, it can be damaging to the system.

Sam Believ (22:28.334)

So yeah, maybe they will figure out a way to put a shaman in the pill as well and you take a…

take two pills somehow. Yeah, it’s, you know, what you talk about skepticism and science, you know, science is observation, right? If you observe something and it keeps repeating, then you can create science, right? You do studies about it. So if you come to this world of ayahuasca and you observe people getting over depression over and over again, then you believing in it doesn’t mean you’re just believing it out of faith, you know, you actually have your own little science, you know, end of one and you know that it works or if it

Joe Tafur (22:36.098)

Sure.

Sam Believ (23:03.848)

It worked for me personally, so you get to believe in it. So I guess that’s just normal, right?

Joe Tafur (23:10.238)

observation. And so then you and then being down there and living there with those people, you realize, oh, well, they’re observing it too. Like, just because they’re not from my culture doesn’t mean that they’re idiots. You know, it’s like, guess what, they’re speaking from their observation. You know, they’re not just saying it trying to convince you to believe in whatever they’re talking about. You know, and so that, that skepticism is, is like can be

Sam Believ (23:25.262)

Mm-hmm.

Joe Tafur (23:36.102)

as part of the openness is like, okay, well, let’s listen to somebody, let’s get to know who we’re talking to, you know, before we just say, oh, they’re just savages, they don’t believe then we they don’t believe in, you know, the truth.

Sam Believ (23:49.846)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Speaking of science and spirituality, I think you spoke about it as well, where inevitably they meet each other. For example, when we go to quantum physics, can you talk a little bit about that?

Joe Tafur (24:09.322)

Yeah, I think that they’re just, it’s back to what we were saying about observation. That there’s an element of spiritual practice and that’s coming out of observation, thousands of years of observation. Sure, there are layers of ignorance that can be put on top of that, but some of it is actual study. People studying Hindu.

Joe Tafur (24:40.258)

Philosophers studying meditation, or people all over the world, their spiritual study observing, this is how what we see, this is what we think, this is how the world works. Like there’s that projection, sure there’s room for that projection, but there’s also the observation is still there. Similarly, the science is, yeah, it’s observing, it’s observing for sure, but then you see, you witnessed it yourself, how the prejudices.

that the politics that would govern even such a field where it’s always just simple observation, but it’s observation where we don’t allow those people’s observations to be part of the system, only these observations. And so then you see, oh, well, there’s some arbitrary distinctions here. So then science becomes a belief system at some point.

You know, obviously the evidence-based part of it is important and we’re all learning from that. There’s a universal knowledge growing from that investigation and that research, which is very powerful. And there’s a belief system, you know, where the person becomes a fundamentalist, where they start believing in parts of it without proof. You know, the guy tells you, oh, we can do this. Don’t worry. We’ll figure it out, you know.

There’s no proof, but he says, oh, well, because science is gonna figure it out. So then when you’re seeing somebody describe their faith to you, you know, like they feel their proof is that they believe in it. So then they criticize the other person for having faith, but at some point their knowledge does hit a leap of faith point that many of them take. I believe, you know, whatever, this is what happens to you when you die. I believe this, I believe that, I believe that.

that spiritual healing, that emotional healing that you’re doing in the Amazon is not useful. You know, that’s a belief. It’s not necessarily an evidence-based point of view. So there’s a lot of crossover, you know, there’s observation on both sides, there’s belief systems on both sides. So the skepticism is important on both sides, but also the honest observation and…

Joe Tafur (27:00.194)

So I think that.

Science is spirituality. One of the big differences, spirituality is kind of a more holistic perspective that doesn’t, that allows for there to be some kind of meaningfulness to things. Science can have that, but science, some people use science to try to say that there is no meaning. You know, they try to use the evidence to support that.

that there’s no purpose, there’s no meaning. It’s just empty, nihilistic. You know, the materialism that they focus on. So where is that coming from? What is that? We know there are some arbitrary observations there. We know there are some things that you’re not talking about. And so again, for me, in my experience, I do see that sometimes the overly rigid overly, you can have the new age, you can have people who are out ungrounded, unrealistic.

Sure, that exists, but then on the other side, you can have the closed, like hearted, and it’s a lie. It is a lie that it doesn’t bother them. It is a lie that it doesn’t affect their relationships, that it doesn’t impact the way they relate to their families, the way they relate to the world, to nature. Yes, it does affect those things. That is an observed fact.

Sam Believ (28:28.054)

Well, if you can choose what you believe, I think if you can believe that when you die, your soul gets, goes somewhere and your existence continues, or you can believe that when you die, you just lights off and you disappear, I think you should just choose, it’s better to choose to believe the first option because it’s more optimistic. I think it would affect the way you live your life as well. But what I was trying to say as well is,

cutting-edge science with all the numerous dimensions and parallel universes and string theories and quantum physics it doesn’t it doesn’t it’s not really that far from the from the spiritual way of thinking and you know believing in things that don’t seem to be real you know it’s they kind of start to come together when you

Look into that.

Joe Tafur (29:29.114)

No, that’s true. That’s true. There’s, you know, the science as if you follow the logic and the science all the way into the subatomic space, for example, you know, then you get into this quantum physics and you get into this mysterious reality, you know, that there’s possibilities and that things don’t…

that there’s dimensions like you mentioned beyond what we’re familiar with or what our senses are regularly attuned to. And so there’s just much more to the picture and that is clear from what the science is actually producing. And I guess that’s gonna take a stronger and stronger, make a stronger influence, I would imagine over time, some of the quantum physical properties of matter. One of the things I…

came across was that there’s a quantum entanglement, which is considered like kind of a weird, you know, property of matter, of light, of whatever, the universe, that, for example, certain subatomic particles and photons can be entangled with one another. And then that means that they’re going to be connected.

And so somehow the state of one will inform the state of the other. They could learn the state of one from the state of the other and that could happen across distances that would indicate that it’s happening instantaneous faster than the speed of light. That it’s transcended. That it’s as far as we know, it’s happening instantaneously across space time. That this is now something proven.

that this exists, that was the mathematics had indicated the possibility of that in Einstein’s time. And then in the last several decades, they discovered that this is a real phenomenon and now quantum entanglement and that those elements of the quantum physics are my understanding, I’m not an expert of this, but that they are utilized somehow in the functioning of quantum processors.

Joe Tafur (31:38.762)

and that the quantum processors are part of what is allowing the processing speeds to go into these new orders of magnitude that are allowing for things like artificial intelligence. Like that is maybe related to the quantum entanglement. You know, that the mysterious nature of matter, the mysterious nature of, I don’t know, this energy is currently being utilized.

in many different ways. And, you know, burning up, as it turns out, this artificial, whatever intelligence is gonna, you know, burning up a lot of energy. You know, it’s like, it’s not just nothing. It’s not just another computer program. It’s like, it’s burning up a lot of energy. It’s something very significant that they’re tapping into to try to make all this stuff happen.

Sam Believ (32:34.202)

Another quantum experiment, the double slit experiment is very, very famous, but where the presence or the absence of the observer defines whether what they shoot out becomes a particle or a wave, which kind of means, you know, spiritually speaking, your thought or your prayer can affect the nature of the matter, which is

also scientifically proven so it kind of explains to you know people pray for things or as they say now manifest and it can you can kind of try and see and trace it to some kind of science so yeah this is all very fascinating. Speaking of science have you come across any particular studies on ayahuasca that maybe you

Joe Tafur (33:16.235)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (33:28.578)

you love to share about or psychedelics in general? Any favorite studies?

Joe Tafur (33:33.19)

Yeah, when it comes to ayahuasca, I mean, there’s I think my I like the studies that are studying the traditional setting. So there’s some and they’re like including you’re in Colombia, you know, there’s some Inga, I can’t remember his name, but he speaks at a lot of the conferences. And there’s another lady to Kano from Brazil, and I was part of a panel and some of the Amazonians have asked that they don’t do clinical research on ayahuasca, you know,

that they feel like that will be a pathway toward commercializing it. That that will just simply try to make a product and forget about the tradition and forget about the people, forget about the people that taught them how to do it and the plans and everything. So they were asking people to not pursue that, you know? And so I respect that, I understand that. And so I like here in America, for example, our work with Iwaska is not being done through

clinical research, but through religious protection. They were saying, okay, we’re the spiritual practice of working with the medicine is what we wanna protect. That being said, there have been a few studies of ayahuasca within a shipibo context at the temple of the way of light. It’s, they published a couple of research studies. One of them was on grief, like the loss of a loved one, people coming for…

help with grief over someone in there, you know, a loved one that died. And they found significant results from there. Like it’s a 12 day program and they did one year followup and the, the state, you know, the, the shift stayed with the person and it wasn’t not like, like in a strong majority. So it was a significant, uh, um, study and it showed significant results. They subsequently were trying to explore like, okay, what about.

working with Westerners, which are people medicine, you know, how, how does that impact them? And they found, yes, it was very impactful. So around this cultural ideas or these cultural limitations, at least in that setting, they weren’t running into that, that wasn’t blocking what was happening with people. And they found that they had really significant shifts in people’s sense of personal well-being and spiritual well-being. You know, one of the things they mentioned in one of those studies that was very interesting was the.

Joe Tafur (36:00.938)

the idea of the presence of the healer. So then as we get into the tradition, we say, okay, the ayahuasca or the yajay or the molecules, that’s a component of what’s going on for people. But there’s the ceremony and the setting and the retreat and the community and all these other elements that are there. And then you have these advanced practitioners that are coming from traditions where they study how to work with the ceremony and…

They study in a multi-generational kind of wisdom practice, where you could imagine they could get very advanced knowledge about how to work with those settings. And so they could probably do things maybe that you never even heard of or saw before, like no one you know has any idea about what they’re doing. Just like if you took one of them and you brought them to, I don’t know where.

to Austria and said, hey, let’s make a violin today. Sit down, come on here, watch this guy, he’s making the violin, let’s do what he does. It’s like something like that. And so in that study, one of the results was they showed that something like 36% of the people that received the healing said that the healer was the most significant part of their journey more than the ayahuasca.

So I thought that was interesting. You know, when you see these multifactorial things, the other people say, oh, it’s just the molecule. But then meanwhile, the evidence is like, oh, you know, that’s not what we’re seeing here from the observation.

Sam Believ (37:39.946)

Yeah, I think the healer is a big part of it, but also the group. I’ve recently, I’ve been noticing that, you know, group and the support of people, especially if you create a container that of mutual support, the group tends to play a role, you know, almost similar on the, you know, importance to, to ayahuasca itself. I definitely can attest to that.

Joe Tafur (37:44.638)

Yeah, of course.

Sam Believ (38:07.158)

I like that you mentioned this violin analogy that brings me to one question that I wanted to ask you. You went and you worked with Chipibos and you trained to be a curandero. What are your thoughts on a lot of people that discovered ayahuasca and after a few ceremonies…

they start believing that you know maybe they might be a shaman or trying to get an express course on how to give ayahuasca. Obviously my opinion is that it’s possible but needs to be done respectfully and with a lot of time and this violin analogy that he uses is very beautiful you know you come if somebody from a jungle comes to austria and wants to make violin they will have to accept the reality that it’s difficult and you need to

train for years till you get a good violin but for some reason some people come and they think you know ayahuasca is just giving the cup and it’s very easy and they can do it basically starting tomorrow so what would you tell those people?

Joe Tafur (39:12.276)

Yeah, it’s like.

Joe Tafur (39:17.634)

You know, if they’re very serious about it, they would want to learn more. You know, I can understand there’s an enthusiasm and they want to participate and they want to get involved, but it’s not that serious, you know, to be honest. You know, it’s like if you go, if the shipibo goes to Austria and he says, yeah, you know, here, I can do it in a month.

And then it’s like, okay, now we take his violin and we take it to the symphony. You know, we say, okay, we’re going to have the violin solo play the violin from that person. And it’s like, so no one’s going to be surprised if it’s like, wow, there’s a lot of room for improvement there, you know? And so if you’re serious about it, if you want to just make a violin like that, and that’s, that’s how that’s, you know, they’re probably, I don’t think they’re ever going to let it in the symphony again, you know, when that one.

That’s okay, you know, but you can keep doing that. But if you want to take it further, sure, there’s a lot more to learn. You know, that’s number one. And so a lot of people aren’t very serious about it, you know, because to be serious about it is to be dedicated for years. Because like you said, that’s what it is to make the violin like that. It takes years. So they, you know, they’re kind of in a…

You could say it’s like a fad, you know, they’re just they’re interested. They’re it’s like they’re taken by it. They’re really interested, but to really evolve and become like a, um, the kind of practitioner that, that with the tradition or people would say, Oh, that’s, that person is well experienced. You know, they’re, they’re safe. They can handle a lot of different situations, not because they think they can, but because they already did it. You know, I’m a doctor. It’s like, they don’t let you out of medical school.

Because you think you can do that surgery or this surgery, you have to do it in front of somebody else, like many times before they like check the box. Okay. That’s how you learn in an apprenticeship. You know, that’s the traditional way that it’s like, you don’t get to do it because you think you can do it. You have to actually have somebody who knows how to do it and it knows how to do it means they did it before. Like they just did it last week in front of everyone.

Joe Tafur (41:36.222)

So then that’s like, it’s a known thing that they were able to help that person. And so they feel confident that they can help this person. They feel confident to see, to evaluate where are you at in your progress? You know, so I think it’s about patience. And I respect that the passion that people have for something like that. But if they’re really serious about it, then hey, they’d want to make a good violin. I would think.

And if they just want to like kind of check it out for a while and mess around and kind of live a lifestyle or maybe become the center of attention for a group of people, I don’t know all the different reasons that people might like rush into that kind of thing. Or maybe they really see a big need, you know, they could be from that place. They see this need is so intense. They want to help so bad. But all the more reason to be careful and to learn more.

and to study harder, to try to go. And so I think the patients, all the traditions teach that. So then why would you think that you’re the one? And so then we say, this is a Colombian, you know, Taita, he said, if the medicine is making you feel, so we know that the medicine can confuse people. We know that. We know that the medicine can fill people’s egos.

and kind of really strengthen their narcissism or just confusion. It happens. We see it. It happens. It’s common. So then how do you discern? How do you know? Like, hey, is it really telling me I’m the one? I’m the chosen one? And so it’s just like, well, he says, if the medicine is telling you that you’re more special than everybody else or that you’re

different from everybody else, then it’s not working. It should help you understand how you are integral to the whole. That’s the sign that you’re learning.

Sam Believ (43:49.998)

That’s very wise and the analogy I like to use is of course there can be a signal and desiring calling to be a shaman or a curandero or ayahuasca but some people confuse the invitation letter to the university with a diploma. And then yeah I do like I do come up with good analogies sometimes.

Joe Tafur (44:09.334)

Yeah, exactly. That’s a good one right there. I like that one.

Joe Tafur (44:17.176)

Yeah

Sam Believ (44:20.886)

What you said about violin, yeah, they can make a violin, but then at least even if it might ruin a concert, but it’s not going to ruin somebody’s life. And I see a shaman as a neurosurgeon for your soul. So if he’s a neurosurgeon for your soul, let’s say it takes 15 years to become a neurosurgeon and somebody can take a scalpel and they can mimic the work of a neurosurgeon, but it doesn’t mean they’re actually doing it well. So let’s move on from the topic. It’s a painful one.

Joe Tafur (44:30.22)

Right.

Joe Tafur (44:45.292)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (44:50.34)

so I guess I want to talk about it but let’s talk more about the healing. You talk about healing as a state of receptivity. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Joe Tafur (45:02.942)

Yeah, that was from a Colombian healer, Sochi Bucuru over there in Sasaima, not far from you. Sochi says that line, you know, that’s something that she maybe heard it from somewhere. I don’t know, but she says that she says, healing is a state of receptivity and healing is a state of consciousness. And so there’s this idea that you…

The reason to be open to the spirituality or the mystery or just those parts that we don’t completely understand but somehow are there, the quantum physics, whatever it is, is because there’s some kind of source there for us to draw from, you know, that there’s, the healing happens when the person is open.

to this kind of, you know, in the psychedelic research and the MDMA research in United States, they have come up with this idea of this innate healing intelligence that the therapist is trying to help the person.

come into their innate healing intelligence, that there’s something innate, that there’s something fundamental to be, that is nourishing and healing, that a big part of helping people is trying to help them get past.

all the conditioning or the ideas of all the reasons why they are not connected to that, that they’re not good enough to be part of that, that if there is something sacred or if there is something quantum physical about themselves, then helping them to open that in themselves, to open that connection, that connectedness.

Joe Tafur (47:10.782)

And so that state of receptivity is being able to be open without to receiving, you know, say like the blessing to receive yourself. And so then there’s another element that I’m just learning about now. It’s I don’t, I haven’t read that paper, but I heard about it that one of the new research kind of analyses of the MDMA research is saying that the one of the main

things that they observe is the self-compassion, that helping people find self-compassion. So there’s an acceptance in the receptivity of self, of the world, of being, that somehow puts you into a connection to an inspiring energy. There’s something to that. Here in Arizona, the Navajo, the Dine people, they say, walk in beauty.

If you walk in beauty, then in that kind of consciousness, and I think that there’s a lot of gurus and people that talk about the same kind of thing, that they’re trying to align their consciousness and their bodies to be able to receive the spiritual awareness that is a consciousness that reflects a healthy functioning of the body. You know, that.

The more harmonious it is with its environment, with its ecosystem, the more evidence that the biology that you see is more resilient.

So that resilience from that biology, where is that coming from? You say this mind state or this openness. So this idea is that maybe there is a metaphysical energy that you’re tuning into, that is not just a positive attitude, but more an alignment.

Sam Believ (49:18.986)

Yeah, that’s beautiful. Walk and beauty. That’s something I’ll try to do tomorrow when I’m walking. Joe, I know you’re writing a new book or maybe you’re finishing already. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?

Joe Tafur (49:24.407)

Thank you.

Joe Tafur (49:32.938)

Yeah, I’m trying to write a new book. I’m still writing it, but I’m towards the end, the last part. And it’s about kind of what I was just talking about in a way, but what it’s about is, uh, it’s about, um, how the psychedelic Renaissance and as a doctor in the research world, clinical world up here is reopening an interest in spirituality.

And similarly, the people that are through their search for healing, they go to the Amazon and go to these other cultures because of their suffering, you know, they go to seek healing. And that healing kind of turns them on to this spiritual dimension that, oh, wow, what I needed was somehow to reconnect to that. And when I allowed myself to reconnect to that, then, you know, my mental health started getting better.

And so this idea that the psychedelic Renaissance is reopening an interest in spirituality from a health driven perspective that is, that can be skeptical, that should be skeptical, that we embrace the skepticism of it. But as we embrace that skepticism, then we follow the research. You know, we follow the research and the research is showing that, yeah, helping people.

connect to meaning and purpose in their lives, and a sense of sacredness is making a big difference in their emotional health, in their physical health, and in their mental health, and that that’s what the traditions have taught. And so I use the last 30 years of the clinical research, the Renaissance and psychedelics as a framework of stories that I’ve…

touch on the research and the science and things that we just talked about, quantum physics, things that came up in the last 30 years, including the internet, you know, all these things that have been popping up in this very interesting times in which we live and showing just stories from my own spiritual path during that time that were like my, that made me kind of take more as I have another spiritual step.

Joe Tafur (51:53.418)

Like, oh, I was living this life and then this made me want to do that. And then this and then this and then eventually, you know, be part of a spiritual community in the United States that’s asking for legal protection for ayahuasca to honor the ancestral tradition. You know, because it’s this dignity that you’re talking about where the healer that you see that is doing so much good, but then.

they don’t realize he’s making a beautiful violin. They think it’s just whatever, stones and twigs. So they don’t see what it is. So as we see that again and honor that again, then we’re gonna learn about how we’ve disconnected from nature so dramatically, and how that’s connected to a disconnection from ourself.

And so as we bridge science and spirituality again, that personal healing has the opportunity to help open our healing in our relationship with the ecosystem. But we can’t discount the matters of the heart. We can’t discount the mystical or the quantum physical. We have to address it. Just because you don’t wanna talk about it doesn’t mean it’s gonna go away.

And if it’s making you sick to ignore it, then now it’s an economic problem. You know, if that, if that registers for people, you know, now you’re wasting your money.

So it’s exploring those topics, but it’s really a series of stories is the goal.

Sam Believ (53:34.35)

Yeah, it’s a.

Sam Believ (53:38.742)

It’s a great topic. I think about that a lot personally and I’ve been thinking about it just a few days ago. I think that for me personally I was never a spiritual person and I’m afraid to admit I am a spiritual person now and psychedelics brought me into it and made me also.

Joe Tafur (53:56.087)

Yeah, but we’re talking about universal spirituality. In other words, not the foolishness, but what you see, where the rubber hits the road. And so in the ancestor tradition, in the Inga, I’m sure, in the Shippewa, in the Navajo, in the Americas, and in many other parts of the world, spirituality and health are considered the same thing.

Sam Believ (54:02.713)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (54:24.302)

Yeah, because if you’re connected, as you say, and you have the connection to the source and your body is balanced, it will heal itself. And so I think about it a lot and like coming back into spiritual art and how psychedelics can help. Of course, I kind of look at it this way, you know, at Lawyra, our motto is connect, heal, grow, which kind of nicely describes it all. You connect.

then you heal and then you grow and the growth is also spiritual growth where you start to understand more and it takes a lifetime and you never you’re never over but i think that

I understand from seeing people, you know, there can be people that in our culture that the thing getting rich is what’s going to make them happier, fulfilled, or as they say here in Colombia, pleno, you know, you’re, you’re full, you don’t, you don’t need anything else and, and it doesn’t do it. So in the end, I think spirituality is inevitable. You have to go to spirituality because

Joe Tafur (55:17.655)

Uh-huh.

Right.

Sam Believ (55:28.126)

it is a final step and I realized that when I interviewed Kyle Buller, a co-host of Psychedelic Today a few weeks ago and he had the near-death experience and then after surviving he had psychedelic experience including ayahuasca experience and mushroom experience and he says it’s a very similar state of consciousness so inevitably maybe then when you die you will be spiritual anyway. So you go back to the spirit.

Joe Tafur (55:54.822)

Yeah, well that’s a lot of people.

Sam Believ (55:57.162)

whether you’re spiritual or not so it’s kind of like in reality everyone is spiritual because that’s what we are you know we have a soul and whether you accept it or not it’s kind of like um what’s the analogy you know well i’m probably gonna offend somebody with this one but if you’re uh let’s say if you’re

if you’re white and you say you’re Asian you can accept that but in reality you’re still white.

Joe Tafur (56:28.686)

Yeah, no, but it’s back to that. It’s this, like you said, like, there’s just, there’s a truth. There’s a denial. You know, if your system is built on a denial, that’s gonna cause a problem for you somewhere. You know, you’re gonna go and, you know, to the old Asian grandma and she’s gonna say, no, you’re white. You know, I don’t care what you tell me. You know, it’s gonna come up because there’s something there.

Sam Believ (56:51.194)

Mm hmm. Yeah. Like that. Like the naked king fairy tale, you know, the kid will say you’re naked because he doesn’t have that process built into him to lie. Joe, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It was a very interesting conversation. Where can people find more about you?

Joe Tafur (57:20.306)

Yeah, thanks for having me, Sam. Very nice to talk to you. People can find more about me on drjoetofor.com and also on modernspirit.org. That’s so they can find me there.

Sam Believ (57:34.938)

great and I wish you best of luck with your book and I want to say this right in beauty.

Joe Tafur (57:44.886)

Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, Sam. Beautiful. I wish you all many blessings on your work down there. One day, maybe I’ll go to La Huayra.

Sam Believ (57:48.11)

Thank you, Joe.

Sam Believ (57:55.138)

Definitely come over.

Joe Tafur (57:56.851)

Okay, good.

In this episode of AyahuascaPodcast.com host Sam Believ has a conversation with Chase Hudson – founder of Hemp Lucid

We talk about  psychedelics and entrepreneurship, war on drugs and misconceptions, cultural shift we are experiencing now and much more.

Find more about Chase here

https://www.instagram.com/chasehudsoniam?igsh=MW9yenF4ZDl6NDRpNg==

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:00.0)

To ayahuascapodcast .com. Today our guest is Chase Hudson. Chase is the founder of Hemp Lucid. He is also, he has an amazing story of how he went from being a firefighter, EMT firefighter to an entrepreneur. Chase, welcome to the show.

Chase Hudson (00:20.719)

Yeah, thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here and connect with you.

Sam Believ (00:22.748)

Chase, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, about your story and how did you become a firefighter and how you went from being a firefighter to an entrepreneur?

Chase Hudson (00:36.527)

Yeah. Yeah. So I grew up in Colorado. Um, I’ve always had a knack for wanting to help people. I got involved, um, early in the fire service, um, right around middle school. Um, my dad had friends who were in the fire service. So I spent a lot of time in, uh, fire stations in the city and ultimately, uh, became part of a program called the, uh, Explorer program.

which was a junior firefighter program where we got to do ride alongs with the fire department in Colorado Springs. And I did that about all through high school. Graduated high school, decided to come out to Utah at the time, Utah. And I believe they still do. They have one of the best fire science programs in the country. So.

I came out here and got my bachelor’s in public emergency service management with an association, with an associates of a fired science and then also wild land science. And then from there, I, um, started, started my career in the fire service. So I spent eight years, um, working in the industry. I spent a majority of my time.

working in wildland fire. And then I did two years of structure fire where I worked on an ambulance. And from, from there, I’ll just give you a quick story. So kind of my initial path of awakening was we ran a call on a, uh, it was a general assist and this lady just needed help, uh, going to the hospital. So we show up at her house and, um,

We go back to her room and my partner was walking down the hallway as I was walking towards the room and the look on his face was like something was really, really wrong. So I walked in, entered the room and there was this lady, she was in her mid 50s and she was just very, very emaciated. She was very thin, very frail.

Chase Hudson (03:03.855)

She was a cancer patient and so I went to go pick her up and I’ll never forget this moment but I was picking her up and she was just a skeleton and I picked her up and put her on the gurney and then my partner started doing his assessment and I was talking to her daughter and her daughter handed me two

Walmart bags full of prescription pills and this lady was taking over 60 prescription pills a day. And that was a very defining moment for me where I realized that this reality is broken in some aspects to have this lady be taking that many pharmaceuticals. It was just, it was not, it was not okay. Um,

And that was the moment that I realized my purpose is bigger. You know, being in the fire service was great, but I realized I was just a spoke and a wheel and I was helping a little bit, but the type of impact that I wanted to have on this world, I was not going to get within that industry. So I, I left there at the time I was working in New Mexico. I left in Mexico, moved back to Utah.

and did another year of wildland fire and then ended up finding CBD and that was the start of me becoming an entrepreneur.

Sam Believ (04:42.139)

That’s a great story, very inspiring. And yeah, I will talk to you later about this, the pharmaceuticals and the role CBD might play in helping people get out of that. But as in your formation as an entrepreneur,

You started at which point did you start working with plant medicines? I know you worked with the Alaska, Iboga, obviously cannabis products, ketamine. Can you tell us a little bit about your, let’s say psychedelic journey and which role has it played in your formation as an entrepreneur?

Chase Hudson (05:24.143)

Yeah. So you, my psychedelic journey, you can say started with, um, with CBD and cannabis. I mean, I think CBD is extremely powerful. You know, it’s, you know, obviously not part of the family of the classic psychedelics, but it is powerful in a sense where it starts to connect the mind to the body. And that’s what I started seeing when I was first introduced to CBD, not only within my own body,

and how my health was really transforming. My mental health was transforming. But then also, you know, everybody around me, my friends, my family, everybody started to get this transformation mentally and physically with CBD. And then I had this guy kind of come into my life, very interesting guy who showed me how to utilize

all these medicines and all these tools in very specific ways. And he really helped me, um, deprogram my mind from the propaganda of our culture and also the dare program. I mean, the dare program, I don’t know if, um, you know, you grew up, um, and were involved in the dare program, but that program was, I mean, it’s one of the most,

Crafty intelligent ways of propagandizing people to keep them away from these powerful tools I actually played a drug in the dare play which I think back. It’s like it’s so funny now But this guy taught me how to utilize these these medicines and how to use them when to use them in a ceremonial setting how to stack them intention and from there I spent

You know, really about a year working with these tools and medicines to, you know, deprogram my consciousness and kind of reprogram my mind. And, you know, one thing that, you know, these tools are, are very powerful for is, you know, removing the propaganda and lifting the veil and connecting with yourself and connecting with the higher power. And, um,

Chase Hudson (07:54.735)

Yeah, from, from there, I mean, the, the company really started to grow. Um, you know, I was really fortunate to, uh, be in a position to take the, I had, there’s other, there’s three other founders of the company. Um, and we ended up doing a founder’s retreat down to Peru, uh, where we spent, uh, two and a half weeks doing Ayahuasca, um, which was extremely healing for all of us. I mean, that really.

opened the door for, um, you know, I was good. So great for just peeling back the layers and, um, peeling back the layers of trauma all the way from childhood. Um, so we’ve, um, we continually, um, like to sit with that medicine and, you know, get our yearly cleanings. Um, yeah. And then, you know, I’ve also been fortunate enough to,

Um, be part of a documentary with Lamar Odom. Um, there’s a documentary we did called, uh, Odom Reborn where, um, we took Lamar down to, uh, Mexico where he did an Ibogaine treatment, um, a series of ketamine treatments and then high dose CBD. Um, and that documentary just, it lives on YouTube if anybody wants to go watch it.

But that was my introduction to the power of Ibogaine. I also sat in that ceremony and I was also very, very, very transformative, extremely powerful medicine. And then that’s also where I was introduced to ketamine, ketamine assisted psychotherapy. I didn’t know ketamine didn’t even come into my kind of my sphere of awareness until.

we started on this documentary project and at the time to have a legal psychedelic that was really all over the country. I mean, clinics were offering it and I just, I had no idea. So I started utilizing ketamine for some of my…

Chase Hudson (10:14.319)

some of my issues, you know, traumas from the past. And I saw how transformative it was for, you know, not only myself, but Lamar. And then, you know, because I’m in a fortunate position of, you know, owning, owning a company, we decided to offer ketamine assisted psychotherapy to, um, to our employees. And so we created a program, um, with Dr. Reed over at Numinous, um, a corporate mental health program.

that we kind of put that together over the course of a year and a half, almost two years. And it’s a program that they offer to corporations today. And yeah, I mean, I’m just, I’m a fan of all these medicines, you know, as we’re living in this time where Western medicine has, hasn’t been a total failure, but it’s, you know, it’s been a failure to a lot of people and.

It’s kind of…

It’s kind of intriguing and exciting to see these medicines from the Amazon and, you know, just medicines from the earth making their resurgence and, you know, really, really having an impact on people’s physical health, but also their mental health.

Sam Believ (11:35.036)

Yeah, I totally agree with you.

At the same time, we’re living in a challenging time and there’s a lot of issues and mental health crisis, but also we never had that many tools as we do now. Ayahuasca, spirituality, everyone has access to YouTube. You can see meditations, breathing exercises, you know, go to one of your stores, get some CBD, come to our retreat, do Ayahuasca. So it’s like the challenges are bigger than ever, but also the solutions are better than ever. You mentioned that,

that taught you everything maybe maybe after the interview you can tell me who he is he sounds fascinating maybe maybe I should try and interview him what how do you call how do you say this program was called where they made you enact like scenes as a kid from regarding drugs

Chase Hudson (12:06.991)

Right.

Chase Hudson (12:17.679)

Okay, yeah.

Sam Believ (12:26.428)

their programs. I’ve never heard about this before obviously I’m not an American but the war on drugs and you know drugs being schedule one and psychedelics as well that definitely touched my culture as well because I remember growing up I was very sure that all drugs are bad and if you take any drugs you basically end up under the bridge your life ruined slippery slope terrible so my first

Chase Hudson (12:27.215)

of the D .A .R .E. program.

Sam Believ (12:52.444)

You know, drug, I don’t call it this way anymore, but I used to was ayahuasca and I was scared. I was like 50 % sure I’m going to die or become an addict. And part of the reason for this podcast is to kind of like, um, remove this misconception and educate people on, you know, there are drugs, but there’s also medicines. And as I like to say about ayahuasca, it was a medicine for 5 ,000 years. It’s only been called a drug for like 45. It’s a, it’s a, it’s a misconception. So, um,

Chase Hudson (13:22.735)

Right.

Sam Believ (13:23.132)

So, yeah, you opened so many topics and answered so many of my questions that I was going to ask, but let’s go back to your beginning, right? You were a first responder and right now, after all you’ve done and everything you experienced and your work, obviously, what do you think about first responders and psychedelics? Because we get a lot of first responders here at Loira and…

They’re in urgent need for help because of how traumatized they are, but they also seem to not be allowed to express that because of some rules. What are your thoughts on that?

Chase Hudson (14:06.031)

Yeah, you know, the emergency service field…

Chase Hudson (14:15.79)

I mean, really all over the world, but particularly here in America is very challenging. Firemen, police officers, I’m even going to throw in…

nurses, as well as veterans, people in the military. But I’ll just.

Sam Believ (14:36.028)

I’ll add in teachers as well.

Chase Hudson (14:41.263)

Yeah, teachers too. Yeah, definitely. But I’ll just, I’ll just speak about, you know, EMS and kind of the public safety sector. Tremendous amount of trauma. Tremendous amount. I mean, the, the public sector, you know, EMS police, these guys don’t get enough credit. You know, what, what they’re dealing with every day. I mean, they’re, they’re dealing with the,

the, I would say the, a sector of our culture where some of the most suffering is happening. And so on a daily basis, these guys are seeing suffering on a level that the general population and the general public just, I don’t think they realize, or I don’t even think they could comprehend if they had a, if they had a peek into that world. And one thing that is,

extremely unfortunate in that sector is you have to, you have to become numb. And so a lot of these guys, police firemen, you know, they’re walking around, their bodies are physically numb because they’ve had to create these, these protective mechanisms to protect them emotionally and feeling wise for what they see and deal with on a daily basis. So,

There’s a tremendous amount of dissociation in this field. And, you know, that’s why I believe, you know, we see so many divorces, we see a lot of suicides. And I think that is a major contributing factor to those statistics. So with psychedelics and these medicines, you know, they,

they teach you to, um, start to be vulnerable, you know, start to peel the layers back, um, start to look at your traumas and really start to connect, you know, the mind to the body to where ultimately you’re, you’re able to start feeling again. Um, because feeling is, it’s one of the greatest gifts of, um, of this life. And, you know, just walking around numb is,

Chase Hudson (17:13.167)

disservice to you know ourselves as human beings.

Sam Believ (17:16.764)

As one of the veterans told me after he’s attending this retreat, he says the VA, they care for you not to kill yourself or hurt others and be productive. If you are that person.

you already success in their in their lists and um but no questions are asked about quality of your life or what can you feel and he said he was so numb that um you know he found himself in the shower with the with the gun in his mouth so that’s tragic and

Also another thing about first responders specifically is in the US and also in Europe a lot of people that come here they say they cannot be photographed or can’t leave a review because if they are found that they’re having psychological issues or taking psychedelics they’re going to lose their job and it’s paradoxical that people who take the most pain and help the most in the society are the ones that are not even allowed to ask for help. So…

That’s very tragic. You as a first responder, you said that you told that story about the old frail lady and the amount of drugs you found on her. I think it’s synchronistic, but today I got a call.

from an older gentleman in the US and he’s trying to come to the retreat and as you might know with ayahuasca you have to quit a lot of medications and he’s also on the painkillers and there’s also a big list of medications so it reminded me of him. I told him I’m going to interview him today maybe I can ask what do you think about potential of CBD for getting you know

Sam Believ (18:59.292)

getting rid of all the subscription medications, specifically painkillers. Have you observed any success in that field?

Chase Hudson (19:10.191)

Yes, yes. And that is, um, that’s why I have so much excitement around CBD. And I think it should be part of everybody’s daily regimen. Um, but when it comes to weaning off of pharmaceuticals, particularly pain medicine, so CBD is great for kind of, uh, kind of like call it the big four, you know, insomnia, pain, anxiety.

depression. Those are the four major things that it works absolutely wonders on. We’ve been doing this eight years now, nine years now, and every, I mean, legitimately every week we get emails or people leaving us reviews or sending us messages through our website on how they have weaned off of

XYZ pharmaceutical and in that process, I mean that is what myself and everybody here at Hemp Lucid, it’s part of our purpose. It’s why we do this to get people off of these highly addictive petroleum -based toxic pharmaceuticals. Now there’s a place for them for some people but…

Um, you know, in America, we have a horrific situation on our hands where pharmaceuticals have been over prescribed. And typically what happens when people start taking CBD, it’s, it’s very, very interesting and pretty cool. Um, like we were talking earlier, you know, it really starts to connect the mind to the body and their people’s bodies will actually start speaking to speaking to them and telling them, Hey,

you know what, you know, you’ve, you’ve been on CBD for let’s say a month now. Um, you know, maybe you don’t really need some of these medications. Let’s start cutting back. And so what people will do on, on their own behalf, they will start to titrate off of their pharmaceuticals up until they are either completely off or just taking a very, very small amount. Um,

Chase Hudson (21:38.991)

So it takes time to wean off some of these medications, but we’ve helped, I mean, at this point, I would say thousands of people to help them wean off of their pharmaceuticals.

Sam Believ (21:53.34)

That’s really great. So I’ll tell the person that messaged me today to listen to this episode. I’m sure it will help him. Insomnia, pain, anxiety and depression. That’s exactly the issues he’s been having and hopefully this can help him. You know, we know often they come to come to the retreat and kind of go and work on the…

the reasons you know where where is that all coming from what’s what’s the trauma that’s causing it so yeah definitely going to explore it myself and maybe start recommending it so um

I know you also work with ayahuasca as you mentioned you do it once a year and you also do a diet once a year is that true like a dieta can you tell us about it and why are you compelled to do it once a year and why once a year just because that’s what I tell people you know ayahuasca ayahuasca retreat once a year keeps the psychiatry story as I like to say

Chase Hudson (22:58.831)

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. So yeah, I try to get down to Peru once a year, try to do a diet, plant diet. I’ve just, I’ve had, I’ve just, I’ve had so much success and my healing with ayahuasca and dieting other non -psychedelic plants. And you know, those.

It’s just, it’s such a unique magical experience to be, um, to be in Peru, doing these diets and being in ceremony and having these, um, transformative healing experiences, not only with ayahuasca, but the plant, uh, that you’re dieting. And, you know, in, in every one of my ceremonies, um, you know, I’ve, I’ve,

I always get into some very harsh, challenging situations and my plants usually come to assist me and show me the way how to navigate these tough and challenging places that I get into. I think it’s good to do it once a year, especially living here in America where it’s just a constant…

onslaught of propaganda and fear. Um, I mean, you can’t, you can’t go anywhere or even, you know, look at your computer or look at your phone or drive down the road and have some sort of fear propaganda trying to penetrate your consciousness. And so, you know, I utilize ayahuasca once a year to just clean that crap.

off. Clean the heavy dark energy and to bring the light to bring the light back in.

Sam Believ (25:03.612)

Yeah, it’s interesting you describe that, you know, how we’re being manipulated by fear and, you know, it makes us buy stuff and keep the consumerism going. You mentioned that in your bog experience, some higher intelligence told you to stop consuming social media because you said the brain wasn’t ready to handle all this information. Can you share about that?

Chase Hudson (25:30.927)

Yeah. So yeah, I, yeah, I Boga was it’s, it’s, I mean, all these plants are super intelligent, but what I experienced on Boga was just, it was, um, it’s like this deep, deep, intelligent spirit that was just communicating with me. Like it was my, they call it the grandfather. Like it was my grandfather giving me these very stern messages, kind of slapping me.

around a little bit. Um, but yeah, I had this very interesting visual where, um, I was communicating with this like black kind of like this black mass and it was like, you know, your brain is filled with about a third of bullshit and I’m like, okay. And it’s like, do you want to know what it is? I was like, yeah, I do. And it’s like, well, it’s, it’s social media.

And at that moment it showed me the creation of my MySpace account, which I don’t know if you remember MySpace, but it was like the Facebook before Facebook. So the creation of my MySpace account from the day I created it up until the kind of the present moment. And then it went through my Facebook account. Same thing. Instagram account. Same thing. And then it also started flashing like

electronic billboards, just anything electronic. Um, but the main focus was on social media and it’s like, you know, your brain is full with this and that’s why you’re having some of the neurological issues you’re having. Do you want me to clean that out for you? And I was like, yeah, let’s do that. So this big black mass turned into.

I think the best way I can describe is like a trillions of little of these like nano nature robots that went into my head and started physically scrubbing my head and removing, you know, essentially just taking out the trash and its message was so clear, but the message was, you know, your species is not ready for this yet. It’s just, you guys aren’t ready for it yet. And you know, back then it was like,

Chase Hudson (27:55.567)

Yeah, maybe. But fast forward to today, we’re definitely not ready for it. We are definitely not ready for the power that is our cell phones and the power that is of social media. And then we start looking at all the manipulation of governments getting involved with these corporations and…

manipulating the algorithm and creating these programs to hit on certain dopamine receptors in the brain. And you’re seeing that with like really young kids like this generation that’s coming up right now. I feel sorry for them. And we’re starting to see a lot of cultural issues, addiction.

to phones, addiction to substances, depression, anxiety in middle schoolers and high schoolers. The suicide rates are off the charts now. Body dysmorphia is off the charts now. So we’re definitely not ready for it, but it is what it is and here we are.

Sam Believ (29:16.316)

Yeah, wait till you still show you iboga nanobots the tik tok and the short videos I was pretty good at ignoring social media, but now it’s like every time I go to post a video about you know, I was good reviews and some useful stuff. It just puts me to this video in there you get sucked in it’s it’s so addictive. It’s crazy. So yeah, the

Chase Hudson (29:39.823)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (29:40.284)

we would definitely well psychedelics definitely help uh… i was going to gives you flexibility to quit those patterns and then establish new ones however i noticed that if you have to ask you go back and actually watch those videos they can hit you even stronger because the flexibility is kinda neutral i like what you say about the bogus a grandfather and i kinda you imagine that concept of uh…

plant medicine family because the ayahuasca is a grandmother, let’s say bogey is a grandfather, mushrooms are children, probably get a crazy cousin ketamine and brother TBD. It’s interesting you can kind of create a functional family so to speak.

Let’s go back to the topic of entrepreneurship. A lot of people, obviously me myself, I’m an entrepreneur and running an iOS retreat is still running a business. Although a lot of people don’t really like that honesty and they prefer to say, you know, it’s not a price, it’s a donation. But I like to be honest, you know, I have a team of 30 people I have to pay. So I need money to do that and build improvements and just being clear about it. So.

Chase Hudson (30:26.927)

Right.

Sam Believ (30:55.868)

I personally believe that psychedelics can be a great tool for entrepreneurship. What do you think in your own journey? What do you say to people that think that being spiritual means also being poor and like this stereotype of locking yourself in a cave and not interacting with the world?

Chase Hudson (31:19.823)

Yeah, I mean, that’s just not how it’s just not how reality works. I mean, reality is built on the foundation of money and you know, we need money. It’s a form of energy. It’s a form of exchange and you know, it’s we all have bills to pay. You know, we’re all part of the system, you know, whether we like it or not. I.

I think it’s really like, what are you using? Like, what are you using your money for? You know, like, like you, you know, you’ve got, you’ve got 30 employees that you need to pay. And if you weren’t paying those employees, then you wouldn’t have a center. And if you didn’t have a center, then people wouldn’t have a place to come to and get the type of healing that, that they need. Um, and you know, same, same with my business, you know, my, it, it, the,

peak of our business, we had almost 40 employees and you know, we’re pumping out thousands of bottles of, um, you know, CBD that are helping people with their anxiety, pain, depression, insomnia, helping them wean off pharmaceuticals. So, you know, it’s just, it’s an aspect to reality. And, um, you know, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t feel bad for, um,

you know, taking in money to help grow and expand to offer help to additional people.

Sam Believ (32:53.916)

Yeah, money is energy and you can spend money to buy a bigger truck or you can spend that money into your personal development and in the end of the day.

when you’re on your deathbed, what are you gonna more value? The things or the experiences are actually, you know, our retreat is very, very affordable. It’s, and it’s so for the reason, because that’s what we kind of try to do. But even then still some people, they’re like, for some reason they think that spiritual stuff has to be free or there’s some kind of misconception that, you know, there’s some kind of blockage when it comes to that. But, um,

I’ll share a little bit about my own entrepreneurial journey and the role I wasca played in it. For me personally, what it did, it just made me believe in myself. For basically, I went from saying, you know,

Chase Hudson (33:47.887)

Mm -hmm.

Sam Believ (33:49.18)

uh… if we become successful to saying when we become successful but not as a gimmick as this uh… toxic positivity style thing but for some reason i just believed in it i just like it kinda was revealed to me in some subconscious way it just i don’t remember the exact moment it changed and since then it’s just everything you try to achieve you just achieve it and it’s amazing what do you think about burnout can uh…

Can plant medicines and CBD also help with burnout?

Chase Hudson (34:23.279)

Yes, absolutely. So I’ve had about two burnouts over the course of the last nine years. And psychedelics and plant medicine definitely helped get through that, particularly ayahuasca. I mean, I had a year where just very, very stressful.

and my neurological system was actually shutting down. I started to get really, really bad tinnitus, which I still struggle with today, but it’s not as bad as what it was a few years ago. And then I started developing like all this neurological pain in my extremities. I started developing like all these additional frequencies in my…

Hearing so it’s like I had tinnitus and then I was hearing like three or four other frequencies and like these weird buzzing and I was like, okay, I’m Essentially frying my circuits. I need to take a break and repair and that’s when I did my longest diet down in Peru I did a month -long isolation diet and I Came back after this are those 30 days just a completely new person all the symptoms went away. I

The pain that I was developing in my extremities went away. Um, I still had a little bit of my tinnitus, but I’m pretty sure that is from just like eardrum damage, running chainsaws for multiple years. Um, but it definitely helped me heal. Um, and then also, you know, keeping up with the regimen of micro dosing. Um, you know, that’s also helped over the years. Um,

recently I went through another bout of burnout and I actually utilized combo for for that and that absolutely had a I would say an unbelievable impact on my burnout symptoms and I mean so much so that

Chase Hudson (36:43.439)

I actually just got back from a combo practitioner training because I needed to learn how to work with the medicine more, understand it more, you know, self -administer. Um, so it’s just, it’s, it’s an exciting time where we have all these tools that are starting to emerge from the Amazon that have such a, an impact on our physiology, our biology.

you know, our physical health, our spiritual health, our mental health. And, um, you know, I think that, you know, these plant medicines and amphibian medicines are so crucial and key for helping entrepreneurs avoid burnout.

Sam Believ (37:29.148)

Definitely I drink ayahuasca once a month one ceremony month obviously that’s a luxury of living at an ayahuasca retreat and I like to say it’s gotten really tough at times really tough and I think that I Definitely recall moments where I would come to ayahuasca for you know Just help and it always helped me out and I think so far allowed me to prevent the burnout

Regarding combo I’m a big fan as well. I don’t have any tattoos, but This is closer as it gets but those are working those I’m revealing my combo scars Which I’m trying to arrange in the shape of the logo of our retreat as best as I can So yeah, I’m a big fan I mostly do combo for immune system it really helps to

Chase Hudson (38:13.487)

Oh cool.

Sam Believ (38:22.78)

uh… activate the new system not get sex often uh… as a combo uh… as a you know learning come up with this and i’ll maybe you can uh… attest to that or refuted but the what they say is one one that when the venom of the frog goes into your bloodstream through those burns on your skin it’s a may basically makes every cell in your body feel attacked and activate the epigenetic sequences to uh… you know start fighting

and then when you remove the poison it still keeps fighting even though the poison has been removed but then it kinda kills all those silent infections and it kinda makes you feel better. What do you think? Is that a correct way to describe it?

Chase Hudson (39:09.519)

I would say so. It also kind of piggyback on that in, you know, combo is a secretion of peptides. You know, that’s all it is. You know, over a hundred different bioactive peptides and they’re, you know, peptides are short of chain amino acids, which ultimately end up turning into proteins, which ultimately is what, you know, our meat vehicles are made out of. You know, we are a walking mass of protein.

Um, the peptides are bioactive, so they also work within, you know, all the cells, um, organ structure of our, of our body, of our biology and physiology. Um,

Combo is so powerful in a sense that Big Pharma has tried to patent 70 different peptides in combo, but what they ended up realizing is that as they isolated them, they weren’t as potent as effective as like the full secretion from the frog. And so, you know, what enters your body, you have all these little bioactive peptides signaling to all these cells in your body on how to, um,

on how to function properly, you know, the way that humans, our human bodies used to function 5 ,000 years ago before the introduction of, um, you know, this, this toxic environment that we’re all living in, you know, our, especially here in America, you know, you’re, you’re kind of on the outskirts where, you know, you probably get really good food and water, but you know, here in America, the food system is, I don’t even really think you could call it food.

You know, so the food’s poison, the water, you know, poison, all heavy metals in it. You know, the air is toxic. You know, what we’re putting on our skin on a daily basis, we’re just, we’re living in a soup of toxicity and all these toxins get in our bodies and it starts to disrupt all of these chemical signals between our cells in our body. And that’s ultimately where you end up getting all this inflammation.

Chase Hudson (41:25.519)

disease, illness, sickness. And so, um, you know, combo is, you know, I’ve been involved with it for about five months now and it’s just absolutely consumed all of my free time because I’m just, I’m so impressed by the healing properties and qualities that I’m seeing in people and.

You know, it really shines on the, um, you know, the antiviral side, antibacterial, anti -fungal, uh, anti -protozoa. Um, I’ve talked to other practitioners that are utilizing it to, um, help people from vaccine injuries. Um, it works tremendously well for, um, people that have any sort of autoimmune issue. So, you know, Epstein bar.

Um, it works wonders for people with Lyme disease, Hashimoto’s, um, it even acts on cancer. Um, you know, there’s peptides in there that essentially don’t allow blood flow to, um, essentially connect to the cancer cells so the cancer cell can grow. So, um, I’ve talked to a couple of practitioners that have been working with combo for about 10 years in.

know, what they’re saying with people in cancer is, you know, nothing short of a miracle. So I think that combo is definitely, it’s, it’s, I mean, it’s really taken, you know, the West by storm, but I think that as the, the pendulum continues to swing from trusting big pharma and Western medicine, I mean, it’s lost so much credibility.

really since 2020. And as the pendulum swings into this other area of natural holistic plant -based medicines, amphibian -based medicines, it’s only gonna get more and more popular. And I’m excited to see what the research is gonna show here in the next few years around how powerful these peptides are.

Sam Believ (43:41.212)

Yeah, Kambo is great and hopefully now you learn how to apply it and maybe you can add it to your health package to your employees. As you mentioned, you were the first company to add ketamine treatment to your health package, to your business. So can you talk a little bit about that? What else do you offer your employees and how does it help with…

you know, team and how do they work better, are they happier?

Chase Hudson (44:19.183)

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, it really started with the, um, the mental health program, which was, you know, the ketamine assisted psychotherapy. Um, you know, we offer that to employees. They can get a treatment once a quarter, um, if they need, you know, it’s, it’s optional. It’s not pushed. Um, it’s just, it’s up to the discretion of the employee. Uh, and then we also do, um, body work. So I’ve got a buddy who,

used to work on Olympic athletes. So, um, employees can go see his name’s Ryan. He’s an absolute wizard. Um, we do that. And then, um, you know, ice plunges, saunas, um, you know, it’s kind of transitioned into people here, just purchasing those items and just putting them at their houses. Um, before we used to go and do, um,

cold plunges at the river, you know, we’re in Utah, so right at the base of the Wasatch Mountains. And we’ve got rivers running down every one of these canyons and for team building activities once a month, we would go and do an ice plunge in the river. And yeah, you know, it’s just, it’s fostered this energy within our culture of just unification, you know, trying to become, you know, unified in.

you know, our mission, our goals, our purpose, and you know, to be able to own a business and try to…

Elevate people outside of you know, just having a job Has been one of the coolest aspects of being an entrepreneur and running a business

Sam Believ (46:04.252)

That’s great. We give our employees ayahuasca, also not forcing them, but once a month and it’s also been very, very great because you can kind of work through the trauma and issues that’s been created. And I don’t know if in Peruvian tradition they do ward circles, but we do ward circles, sharing circles after every ceremony and…

I find that Ayahuasca side just collecting everyone together and just allowing them to speak, you know, how did the month go, what’s good, what’s bad, and just vent it out, I think is extremely helpful. So what about, let’s talk a little bit about CBD again. Why did you choose?

to form your brand specifically around CBD.

Sam Believ (47:06.268)

No, not other plant medicines. So I can’t talk to us a little bit about that.

Chase Hudson (47:15.983)

Yeah, so.

It just kind of give you a little bit of a backstory. So it was about 2017, 2018, right when the farm bill went through. Um, it was kind of like a, kind of like a hush hush thing. I mean, it didn’t really make it into the mainstream. Um, at the time, my buddy Nate, who’s also one of our other founders, he was working at eBay and, um, you know, we went down to a trade show in Vegas cause we were going to

you know, buy some little trinkets and sell it on our eBay store. And we were down there and ran into this company that was selling CBD products. And, you know, I was like, I don’t, I don’t get how you guys are selling this. Like, isn’t it illegal? Cause you know, I’m thinking that it, it comes from a marijuana plant and that cannabinoids were illegal. But, you know, since the passing of the farm bill, it allowed for the sell.

and extraction of cannabinoids from hemp. And so we were like, okay, I guess it’s legal. So we got some products, we started taking it, started to see results in our body, started selling it on eBay and the reviews we were getting were just absolutely insane. And so we were like, oh my gosh, I think we really have something here and it looks like we could be potentially pretty early.

about three months in, then the lock, not the lockdown, but kind of the clamp down from the government agencies shut down all third party selling of CBD. So eBay, Amazon, Etsy, they just, they shut it all down immediately. And that was another.

Chase Hudson (49:10.447)

kind of another sign for us that okay, this stuff is pretty powerful and it seems to be extremely effective and It seems that these government agencies are pretty threatened by it And then from there We ended up finding a really good source out in Colorado who had really good genetics we started testing their product and you know handing it out to everybody in our community and

We were just, we were seeing unbelievable results and that was also about the time I started my awakening with that guy. I was telling you about earlier that kind of taught me how to utilize these medicines and purpose and intent. And I just kept getting, um, just beautiful, incredible downloads of humanity needs this. We’re kind of in trouble. Um, you know, this is going to be your path for this, for the,

foreseeable future to grow this business and get this medicine out to as many people as possible. And so that’s the path we’ve been walking for the last nine years.

Sam Believ (50:21.948)

Yeah, I received a very similar calling with Ayahuasca. And even recently, one of my last ceremonies, he was like, you’re doing great, but you need more. It’s like, that’s not enough. And obviously, you can reach way more people with your products. You know, talk a little bit about, for people that maybe don’t know that much about cannabis, what’s the difference between CBD and THC?

and what are the main effects of the CBD?

Chase Hudson (50:57.071)

Yeah. So you have, um, like, you know, they both fall underneath the umbrella of cannabis plant. Um, you know, medical marijuana, marijuana is bred really high for THC content. Um, and then you have this other side, which is the hemp plant, which is, you know, really mostly bred for, um, the CBD content. So THC that’s a molecule that, you know, gets you high CBD is more of the molecule that.

helps you ground. It’s kind of like the, I would say like the Swiss army knife of cannabinoids. It’s like your general purpose, all well -being cannabinoid that interacts with your cannabinoid system. I mean, all cannabinoids interact with your endocannabinoid system, but CBD in particular, you know, one thing it’s really good for is, um,

inflammation and inflammation is where essentially all diseases start to come from. So our bodies get inflamed, our cells get inflamed and they become weak. Our bodies become weak and then sickness, illness, disease starts to overpower our bodies defense mechanism to fight off and rid these diseases. So.

Uh, cannabis is, you know, it’s a master plants. Um, you know, the, the shamans down in Peru, you know, they, they talk about how it’s, it’s definitely a master plants and in dieting cannabis, it’s, I believe the shortest diet you can do with it is six months. And, um, usually on other plant diets, you, you consume your plant, you know, once a day, once every other day, once every three days. Um,

But with cannabis, you just, you consume it once over the course of that six months. Um, and then it starts to speak to you. The echos start to come, the melodies start to come. So it’s a very powerful plant. Um, there’s over 140 different cannabinoids in cannabis that all have a different, um, impact on our bodies. So it’s, it’s not just CBD or THC, but there’s CBG, which is great for energy CBN, which is great for sleep THC V.

Chase Hudson (53:20.399)

Uh, which is great for a, um, energy, but also a appetite suppressant, um, CBD, a, which is great as a topical for inflammation. So there’s all these different cannabinoids. They all interact with our bodies differently. And. You know, we, I mean, here at hemp lucid, we really believe that the future of medicine is going to be these very specific cannabinoid formulations for.

Sam Believ (53:50.268)

And talking about CBD, can we talk a little bit about the cultural shift and how you got your mom to try CBD?

Chase Hudson (53:50.319)

certain ailments.

Chase Hudson (54:04.271)

Yeah, so, um, yeah, my parents, you know, I think it’s probably something, you know, all of a sudden in our thirties, we probably share this, you know, our parents probably think we’re kind of crazy and what we do. And you start waking up and kind of leaving the matrix and kind of exiting the mainstream and finding these alternative modalities when it comes to healing and.

You know, my parents very, very stubborn and again, coming from the era of the war on drugs, you know, it was very hard to get them to just finally take it. And when they did take it, it absolutely had a drastic, dramatic impact on both my parents’ health. They were able to wean off.

a few pharmaceuticals and you know, their pain started to subside and they started to become more active and just, you know, that mind to body connection they actually got to experience. And, um, you know, to this day, they’re, you know, I still send them CBD products every month.

Sam Believ (55:18.844)

Yeah, you know, they used to call cannabis the gateway drug. I’d like to hope that it’s going to change to the gateway medicine instead of leading to other drugs. It will lead to other better medicines, plant medicines, including like Savayevaska, Iboga. Chase, it was a pleasure talking to you. Where can people find more about you and your products?

Chase Hudson (55:26.031)

Mm -hmm.

Chase Hudson (55:50.031)

Yeah, so we’re in our company’s hemp lucid. You can check us out on hemp lucid .com. We’re just about to relaunch our website with a new theme, a bunch of new programs, new pricing. So, you know, definitely be on the lookout for that. You can check us out on all social media platforms, hemp lucid. And then my personal social media handle is chase Hudson. I am.

Um, there I post a lot about, um, you know, just family stuff and combo, you know, I’m really starting to, to kind of step into the combo practice and really starting to, to bring to like find my voice in, in that area and really start to educate people on combo and the peptides and, um, working with it and, um, what I’m seeing in my, um,

essentially just practice and working with Combo and other people.

Sam Believ (56:51.772)

Thank you, Chase, guys. Check out Chase’s stuff. I’m sure his products are great, especially if you’re getting ready for the retreat and you want to get off the sleeping pills. Not medical advice, of course. None of us are doctors. Just some educational stuff. Thank you, Chase. It was a pleasure.

Chase Hudson (57:19.951)

All right, Sam, thank you.

In this episode of AyahuascaPodcast.com host Sam Believ has a conversation with Ana Sa

We talk about psychedelics and femeninity, quantum healing hipnosis, importance of integration.

Find more about Ana here

https://www.instagram.com/anasa.wellness?igsh=MWllNXV4anU1OWI5cQ==

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:02.015)

and welcome to ayahuascapodcast .com as always with you the host Sam Belyev. Today we’re going to interview Anna Sa. Anna is founder of Anna Sa Wellness. She’s an integration coach and psychedelic facilitator. Anna welcome to the podcast.

Ana Sa (00:20.734)

Thank you, Sam. Thank you for inviting me. I’m happy to be here.

Sam Believ (00:25.077)

Anna, tell us a little bit about your story. I know you had a rough childhood. I know you were homeless at some point. How did you go from loss and heartbreak to faith and love?

Ana Sa (00:40.646)

Oh yeah, that’s great. Thank you for that question. Yeah, I’ve been through big, big, big things, but so did all of us, right? I think that we all have our story and that story makes, that is our superpower. That’s how we can overcome obstacles and become what we want to become, whatever we dream. So.

Um, to be quite honest, I don’t even like as a look back, I don’t even think as, uh, so, so much of a heartbreak, but a heart expansion, I would say. So I like to think that when we have this idea of heart being broken, it’s not really broken, it’s cracked for more space to grow into there. And, and it’s my understanding, my personal understanding that through that expansion of the heart is that we find ourselves.

our purpose and our service. So I would say in a simple way that I overcome by allowing my heart to expand by feeling the feelings within that crack and let it expand into what it’s meant to be.

Sam Believ (01:50.801)

So you also like to speak about transmuting the pain. How did that help? How was that process?

Ana Sa (01:56.126)

Yeah.

Ana Sa (02:00.862)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we were talking a little bit before we got started here that I always was curious about experiences in life, all of them.

my mom used to tell me that I was like a shy, quiet kid that would be in the corner. But depending on the energy of the places, I would get home and have certain kind of reaction. So in other words, those days we know as empath of like really collecting energies that are in the outside. And then as a kid, I didn’t know how to express. So very young age was expressed as with eight years old through migraines. I had like

really really really intense and terrible migraines and that was my first kind of curiosity about pain being curious about what that pain was trying to to inform to inform me and I was medicated from volume to

better blockers for migraines to anti -psychotic meds and all kinds of things. And at some point after maybe 10 years dealing with that, that I started to study.

meditation and ways in which I could control my own feelings and those feelings not only being the physical but also the emotional is that I started like understanding this idea of how could I transmute how could I how could I change that pain into something that was beneficial for me so I think that there was that was the beginning for me experiencing physical pain.

Sam Believ (03:54.357)

And then in the journey, sort of transformation, you went through what roles have plant medicines played or maybe what specific plant medicines have you worked with?

Ana Sa (04:06.91)

Yeah, that’s a great question because it started with cannabis. It was when I was 24 was the first time that I experimented with cannabis. I had a mother that was traumatized by a brother that was killed by drugs, by drug addiction.

by you know being addicted to cocaine and being taken in the streets of Brazil by drug dealers and just killed and never found their bodies so she was always like very protective with us as the daughters how to stay away from so my idea was always like never touch anything until we experienced this very intense migraine very intense pain and with

was prescribed all kinds of drugs that never worked and I decided for myself to experiment with cannabis and it was the beauty of cannabis at that point and it was the one that opened the doors for my curiosity for blood medicine was that it didn’t make the pain go away but it made me be with the pain with more acceptance and space which allowed me to go more

go deeper into the source of how to transmute that pain. So it’s totally related because it’s from that experience that I started to open myself up to the possibility.

Sam Believ (05:39.797)

Well, I also do agree that cannabis is another plant medicine as well and it can be used that way but there’s also a way to abuse it and let’s say use it without the right intention or use it too often and just use it not to transmit the pain but just to run away from the pain. What would your recommendations be for somebody to use cannabis responsibly and ceremonially or with an intention?

Ana Sa (06:08.958)

Yeah, that’s a great question. I agree with that. And I think that all only cannabis, but even in certain ways, if you talk about ayahuasca, that can also be abused by some in a different way, right? Because they are different energies and different things that they work within the signature of the plant medicine. So that’s definitely something to observe. And I think my biggest advice in this is,

terms of understanding what that relationship and how the relationship should be should be an internal questioning really because ultimately we know when we are reaching for something that is to mask a pain or to avoid getting in touch with something or to bypass.

something that we have to experience. I am of the belief system that all the tools, all the resources, all the answers are within and that’s the reason why I have chosen the path.

the path of service that I have chosen, which is all guided to this personal knowledge to go within and get to know yourself and know what is in right relationship with you and how to relate with others, including plant medicine.

Sam Believ (07:32.853)

That’s a great answer. So talking about plant medicines, since you’re from Brazil I would assume you have been in touch with the Brazilian ayahuasca tradition. Can you tell us about it?

Ana Sa (07:50.398)

Yeah, you know, I would love to talk to you about that. And since we’re talking about in general, plant medicine, and in this case, it’s not plant medicine, but is what is considered to be within the umbrella of psychedelic as a therapy, even though it’s not a classical psychedelic either. MDMA was my next experience after cannabis.

And I think that one it’s important to how eventually guided me into Ayahuasca because it was really a beautiful experience to when we are talking about the heart and the crack and the opening of the heart that allowed me to then be into this place of self -compassion and self -love.

that supported me to understand even deeper what was manifesting my headaches and all this understanding of the empathy that was opening the doors for those things to be manifested through pain. So I just wanted to put a parenthesis in there because I think that’s very important in Chang ‘e, how I guided and opened the path for me to continue to explore myself. And…

interesting fact is that I did not get in touch with ayahuasca when I live in Brazil. I live in Brazil for 26 years, the time I was born, until the time that I moved to the United States. And when I moved here, I moved to get married and to, because I fell in love with a Brazilian American man, and I moved here. And I stayed married for 10 years until I, the marriage,

broke it off and it was a successful marriage I consider, but it broke it off in a way that is always, always heartbreaking because we never think that this can happen. And that’s when I really, really decided to go even deeper into this journey of getting to be with the pain to transmute it. Um, and then, um, ayahuasca showed up in my life and, and we are talking about maybe things that we could talk in the podcast. And one of the things that I suggested is this magic, right? Is this.

Ana Sa (10:09.438)

Calling that that happens or at least happened with me and and I feel it is a common thread In the people that end up Experimenting with with ayahuasca this this calling that comes from a place that maybe you hear from someone and just that hearing just gets okay now I’m going to research and and

And that’s kind of what happened with me as I was going into that search and through documentaries and through reading books, something, a message came up to me that I should look into ayahuasca. And I was looking into it and looking how the shipibo holds space in Peru and how much is present into.

Brazil into the Amazon, into the Brazilian Amazon, of course. And that’s when I kind of like was the first call for me of like exploring ancestrality because just the call of the medicine told me like you need to reconnect with your roots. And not long after that, I would say maybe even like three days after that, I had the opportunity to to experience in the United States, not in Brazil.

Sam Believ (11:33.877)

Yeah, it’s funny you mentioned the calling because a lot of people tell me that sometimes I’m the messenger, you know, through the promotion that I do for our retreat, the Lawyra. So it’s also one of the reasons, I guess, for this podcast to create information and to also…

allow people as I said you know you started reading and listening and hopefully it can be in somebody’s journey to get ready because for me personally from learning about the ayahuasca to doing it I think at least two years have passed because it’s a serious commitment so you talk to you talk about reconnecting to your roots can you talk to us about

Ana Sa (12:14.366)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (12:22.965)

how it looked for you, that process.

Ana Sa (12:27.646)

Yeah, yeah, wow, that’s really what it is for me that since the first time that I had the contact with the medicine, it was first this idea of like, okay, we connect with the roots because it’s like Brazil, it’s the medicine that comes from Brazil. So that was the first, my first conscious or at least linear thought, right? Until I had the experience. And within those experiences, I start like,

feeling the pain of my own mother through the experience, the many pains that I knew in the surface that she went through, but the medicine kind of showed me the within and that guided to the suffering of my grandmother. And then understanding how my own scars and pains are related to that as well.

everything started to make sense. My grandmother is a direct descendant of the Africans that came to be slaves in Brazil in the south of Bahia. And that’s when my mom was born. My mom was a fruit of an assault of an European man in my grandmother. So my grandmother really seen my mom as…

as this oppressor and has mistreated her a lot. So it was a lot of pain on that relationship. But through the experiences, I was shown like roots of the African lineage and how attracted I was in a deeper level to some of these spiritual connections with Yoruba lineage and culture and spirituality.

And within a experience with the ayahuasca, I was in this spiritual work of the Santo Daime. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the Santo Daime. And because that’s how I experienced ayahuasca mostly, through the Santo Daime. I was singing the hymns of this woman that it’s one of the elders of the Santo Daime and it’s also

Ana Sa (14:55.23)

one of the 13 indigenous international grandmothers. Her name is Maria Alice. Maria Alice Freire Campos is her name. And she has a collection of hymns. And her study is within the Yoruba also spirituality. That’s how she educated herself spiritually. And it has a lot of that influence into her hymns. And I have very, very, very strong spiritual opening in there. And…

Um, it was in that moment revealed to me so many things and how, how my service should be. And we are talking a little bit about this transmutation of pain. I was sharing with you that I was listening to Bob Marley the other day, vibing to Bob Marley. And, and I got to think for a second about his, his life and how it was full of suffering, abandonment and violence and, and, uh,

a lot of pain and he transmuted that pain into his service, which is his art, his music to all of us because when we listen, we really feel impacted. And that is what those experiences has shown me in terms of ancestrality, how everything is so connected. And I’m just following now that path.

Sam Believ (16:19.731)

And in connecting to your roots, have you felt also the connection to your feminine side and connection to maybe motherly side of mother ayahuasca?

Ana Sa (16:34.11)

Yeah, for sure. It’s right now putting me to think about a lot of things as we witness, witness violence in the world right now, as we witness more oppression. And I feel that this feminine, this feminine energy brings us a quality of care for each other, a quality of care for the mother earth.

which is ultimately what we call the great grandmother, right? Like the mother of all of us. And I give that to feminine energies. I give that to this opportunity that we have to commune and care for each other that’s gonna support us into a new reality. That’s my hope, at least. That’s what I work for.

So I feel like that is a need for this empowerment of feminine energies within all of us, not just women, but men as well. There’s a balance, right? That it’s needed in my opinion. And I think that the medicine has done that for me. So it could embody that feminine side within me. It can embody the qualities of being a caring person.

inviting the qualities of taking care of earth by my gardening, by the little that I can do here being still in the city, but also has awakened within me the desire to be in a community, to be in nature, to be in a place that I can really like take the actions to care for the land and for the community that I’m within.

Sam Believ (18:25.685)

Yeah, I agree with that statement that we do need to do something about our society before we destroy ourselves. And I also believe in it and partially get motivated by the fact that the more people experience ayahuasca, for example, is as they feel their connection to…

each other and to the earth maybe they will feel less desire to hurt each other and maybe less anger and I do believe that it is a bit of a arms race you can say between

who wins first, if the people that are trying to raise the consciousness win, then maybe we get to live some more generations and if we lose then, you know, there’s always a chance of this big war that just destroys us as a species. So let’s hope we win and let’s hope, let’s try and work hard and get more people to wake up and realize that it’s all about love.

Ana Sa (19:31.518)

Yeah, like what Marlee used to say, right? One love. And yeah, let’s continue to work hard. Yeah, listen, it was worth it.

Sam Believ (19:34.869)

Yeah, I need to, I need to listen.

Sam Believ (19:41.863)

So speaking about love and you mentioned opening your heart. How does one know if your heart is closed?

Ana Sa (19:54.558)

Okay, I like that question. I think that I can only again speak for myself and my own experience and what I have noticed by this self observation is I feel that my heart is closed when

The simplest way that I can say is when that is anxiety within my feud. That is this out of alignment of being and trying to control a present situation and not being here with this energy that exists because quite honestly, if you just put the hand on your heart for a second and close your eyes and practice awareness by the beat of the heart.

There is no way that you’re not going to open to the beauty that it is just to be alive and the magic that it is to have this heart beating and it’s going to open, right? So the openness is just the willing to see the magic in life as the way I see it.

Sam Believ (21:00.917)

And apart from the obvious drinking ayahuasca, what else would you recommend for people to open their heart?

Ana Sa (21:14.238)

That’s a simple way that I like to open my heart, which it is to sit with someone in full presence. And what that means, it’s just sit and listen, but listen with all of your being. Listen not to respond or to give an advice or to give anything, but just to listen. Because all…

All that I feel that we’re craving is connection with each other, like real connection. And this real connection is capable of opening our hearts for the magic that life is.

Sam Believ (21:54.709)

What about other things like yoga or meditation? I know you’re big into yoga. Can it help open somebody’s heart?

Ana Sa (22:08.734)

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, this ancient practices that brings us so much knowledge, right? I…

I love knowledge. I love to learn. And when I said that I started this process of understanding my pain and being courageous enough to dig into it, one of the things that made this process, and now I understand the process, is that first I started with the body, the physical body. I went to exercise and science for school and worked with fitness for many years because

I wanted to understand this body, this tool first, because since my pain started with the head, so that was always, I was trying to find the answer by working with my own body first. And that naturally guided into, it can’t just be like working out and moving your body, that’s more to this. So I started to explore the mind and be curious about the mind. That’s when I first started to…

studying hypnosis, eryxonia hypnosis, and neuro -linguistic programming. I became fascinated and a friend of mine said, you should try yoga because yoga means union, means like you really understanding the idea of the holistic being, body, mind, and spirit. So why don’t you try yoga? And here it was for my first yoga class, like thinking that I’m a personal trainer, that’s gonna be easy. And I’ve never been so sore in my whole life.

And I got out, I said, this is incredible because I know that this is just not the physical that got kicked. I can’t kick my butt and not just my body. It was more with the challenge of the mind of why not could I do this physical and why my mind is so stuck into that. So that curiosity of getting to know the mind process guided me to yoga. So.

Ana Sa (24:13.416)

The study of yoga and those ancient practices and the holistic being which is what I believe to be the key for disconnection and the key for us to understand that we are not separated in just bodies and disconnection that’s going to eventually lead us into a more kind society.

I think that practice of yoga, but not just the physical yoga, it’s just incredible and can be super beneficial for if you’re preparing to go to a psychedelic experience or an experience with ayahuasca, if you are exploring now your mind and mental health through psychedelics and you don’t have a practice that…

that yet puts you in the state of expansion, right, of understanding of holistic self that can help because one of the things that the plant medicine or the psychedelic experience can give you is this idea of oneness. So you starting to get a little bit of familiarity with what that means for practice that you can do it every day and

and you can carry on with your integration can be highly beneficial and meditation goes in the lines as well.

Sam Believ (25:43.989)

That’s a great segue to what would have been my next question. You’re an integration coach and you mentioned integration. Can you talk about the importance of integration and maybe some specific techniques you could recommend?

Ana Sa (25:59.134)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it’s so interesting because I was thinking about that this week. There was a friend of mine that was telling me that as an integration coach as well that he was noticing that people are not looking for integration on his, his work so much. And we started talking about this and and

we kind of got into the idea that maybe it is a reflection of this immediate society that just wants a quick fix and don’t follow up with the work, right? Which is that idea of the transportation of the pain. I believe that that’s what the integration can do for you. So you, in the psychedelic experience, you get in touch with the possibilities. And then when you come out of the experience,

the integration would mean how can you be in right relationship in order for you to have that possibility becoming real for you on your life, right? Not just in a psychedelic experience, but in practice. And I cannot stress enough how important integration is. And…

I say that exactly because what is an experience without the action behind it, right? What is all the knowledge that I have and that I like to study if I don’t apply it? And that application becomes wisdom. That is wisdom, it’s applied knowledge, right? So yeah, integration is just like, is the most important.

Ana Sa (27:42.174)

of the experience is what is gonna bring ultimately the change in your life that you’re looking for, that you went to seek after your experience, that you went to seek in the first place when you decided to have your experience.

Sam Believ (27:56.629)

So when people leave our retreat we recommend journaling, yoga, meditation, being in nature as aids to assist integration. Can you recommend something specific or maybe explain what is that work? Because I think a lot of people don’t understand how it looks like.

Ana Sa (28:23.102)

Yeah, yeah. All of those things that you mentioned, they are fantastic and they are definitely should be part of an integration process. So the way that I understand integration and I have applied in my life, it’s exactly what I was mentioning before, which is you have this big experience, this very like life changing experience. And now you have a very much real life, right? A nine to five job where you have.

the relationships that in the first place maybe you went to that experience to work on and you have new fresh perspectives of it. I heard this expression once, I don’t know, it’s somebody that is in the psychedelic assisted therapy or psychedelic therapy industry that said it’s like a mountain, a ski mountain that it just came in with fresh snow and underneath that fresh snow that is all the

the old pathways in which folks would go down that ski line or the ski path. And this fresh snow, now you cannot see those paths and you have the opportunity to create new pathways that will make more sense for you, that will give you more joy, that will give you more experiences. But it’s very easy to fall in the trap and to go into the easy ones, right? Because it’s just fresh snow. Now,

If you wanted to create something new, you have to put the effort into create something new. You have to take action. And that integration process is just that. So things like meditation, journaling, it’s great because it’s reflective, allows you to reflect back what you put it out, right? So if it just stays in, it’s hard for you to have that reflection in order to act. So things like that are great and very supportive.

But as a reflection to the reflection of another person with you right there that had that experience, that very ineffable experience, but it can relate to you in a way that can support you to take the actions and can support you with that view of those actions are can be very, very helpful. And that’s what an integration coach can do. In my case, for example, I work with what are called the integrative holistic.

Ana Sa (30:47.854)

approach, which is to do like an inventory, right, as the experience.

Ghost takes its course, right? Is to create an inventory about what I believe to be the five core aspects of ourselves, which is the physical, the mental, the emotional, the community and your environment. So as through this inventory and through the specialties that I have, hypnosis, for example, being one of them, but also,

the study of transpersonal psychology, through that inventory, we can together create a plan of action that can support the integration of that experience into the real life, right? Into the nine to five job, into the relationships, and then real changes can be made instead of just being an elusive, very nice or very intense, very crazy experience.

Sam Believ (31:54.453)

And in your coaching I know you started quantum healing hypnosis do you use it in your coaching and how does it look like?

Ana Sa (32:05.146)

Yeah, I do. I yeah, quantum healing hypnosis technique. This came with alongside with my passion for hypnosis for exonate hypnosis as well. I wanted to dive deeper and this specific style of hypnosis also includes within the process of regression, past life regression or regression into an important moment of your life that has

influence and impact in what you are bringing as that subject to be worked on in our session or in this case in the integration, right? And the idea here is not just to be curious to look into a past life because that’s not I in my studies and within my own practice, I know that the subconscious do not bring it out to the surface.

what is not helpful for the being to move forward as just how the way that the subconscious mind works and And the idea is to go back to inform what it needs to be done in the present, right? So that’s just one part of the quantum healing hypnosis and in the second part is a state of open awareness and expansion.

for you to get in touch with this, with your heart, with really it is that we were talking about earlier in the interview, how when you open the heart and feel the magic of life is that you receive your own guidance and your own answers and nobody else has the answer for you because it’s very unique to you. So the session also opens space for you to get in touch with this part of yourself that.

that has the answers, that has the direction, that can support you in your journey.

Sam Believ (33:57.781)

Thank you, it’s a great explanation. You also work with psychedelic assisted therapy, right? Can you talk to us a little bit, when does the therapy part comes in, what psychedelics you work with, and yeah, how does it look like for people who might be interested?

Ana Sa (34:19.486)

Yeah, yeah. So last year, when you know, my, my, my belief is that folks that wanted to become psychedelic assisted therapists, and now we have a protocol of, of psychotherapists, participating into this process of supporting folks that wanted to go on their psychedelic experience.

My own understanding is that it’s very important, it’s very valuable that you have your own experiences with the medicine itself. I don’t claim to know it all or actually that’s like every time that I get in touch with medicine I understand that I know less and less. But I do have 80 years of experience with the medicine of ayahuasca.

that can inform me to support folks that might be integrating or might go in themselves through that experience and want support with. And I believe that this is crucial in this work. And last year I decided to undergo a one -year course of psychedelic assisted therapy. And this course was directed towards psilocybin. So I have been doing work with folks with psilocybin, but I also have…

co -hosted retreats of ayahuasca in places there are legal to work with the medicine as well.

Sam Believ (35:56.711)

That’s great. That looks very interesting. Psilocybin is also a great medicine. I think it’s a wonderful tool for the healing. What do you think about comparing the medicines or maybe what are the differences and who maybe needs mushrooms or who maybe needs ayahuasca or when? What are your opinion on this?

Ana Sa (36:26.238)

Yeah, I like to think of all those medicines with a unique signature, unique energy, unique vibration. We were talking about cannabis before, we were even talking about MDMA, and even though it’s not a psychedelic, but it has a specific signature. So I feel like that is a signature, a vibration, and in a way that the medicine does the calling to.

going back to the calling, I think that all of them kind of have like that specific kind of like, hey, come, I wanted to interact with you. It’s my work with Amazonian flower essences also gives me the understanding that every single plant plan and every single being of nature has a way to communicate, but we only perceive because we are in this single focus kind of society that.

tends to put things in boxes, we separate ourselves from the way in which nature communicates with us. But I believe that is a unique communication style of each one of them. So when you think of who is the best for each medicine, I think it always is part of a research. And this is what it’s called, like the preparation to, well, now.

We have this understanding of preparation, journey and integration being like the ideal way to dive into this experience. But this investigation, I believe of what’s best comes from this interaction with the person that it’s in either curious or either has something that wants to work with. Now it’s being spoken a lot about PTSD.

and psychedelics and end of life care and psychedelics and just spiritual expansion. So all of those things have to be taken in consideration in my opinion, alongside with that communication because I think that when folks come to, usually what I notice, folks come to ask me for advice or ask me for support.

Ana Sa (38:41.726)

they already come with an idea of what medicine they want to take or what is the calling for them. And sometimes what they need is a little more information about the signature of each of those medicines and also have the network necessary to do it safely. So I think it’s all part of our research rather than just saying what is best for each one.

Sam Believ (39:08.277)

And yeah, well, for those who are listening, whichever medicine you choose to do, do it responsibly, safely, and do integrate. Anna, it was great having you on. It was very interesting, and I think people will like this episode a lot. Anna, where can people find more about you and your work?

Ana Sa (39:17.854)

Yeah.

Ana Sa (39:29.342)

Yeah, they can find me on my website, anasatwellness .com. They also can find me on Instagram. It’s anasat .wellness, at anasat .wellness. Yeah, and they are, if you wanted to talk to me in more personal ways, you can find also in my website, my email, and we can exchange emails in this way as well.

Sam Believ (39:55.029)

And thank you for coming to the podcast. It was a lot of fun and guys, thank you for listening and I will see you in the next episode of Alaska podcast.

Ana Sa (40:05.618)

Thank you for having me.

In this episode of AyahuascaPodcast.com host Sam Believ has a conversation with Berto Cartagena

We touch upon subjects of spiritual awakening, Ayahuasca and Christianity is Ayahuasca a sin?

Find more about Berto

https://www.instagram.com/bertocartagena

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:03.121)

podcast as always with you host Sam Bileev. Today we’re interviewing Berto Karatahena. Berto is one of our previous patients here at Loira. He has been here a bit more than a year ago I believe. Correct Berto?

Berto Cartagena (00:18.206)

Right, it was the end of February of 2023.

Sam Believ (00:21.989)

like a year and a few months. Berto’s transformation is one of the interesting ones and this is what we’re gonna talk today on this episode about his journey and discovering spirituality. Berto, welcome to the podcast.

Berto Cartagena (00:40.27)

Thank you, thank you Sam, thank you for having me.

Sam Believ (00:43.525)

Berner, first tell us a little bit about yourself and what brought you to Ayahuasca to begin with because I believe your first ever experience was with us here at Lawara, right?

Berto Cartagena (00:55.574)

Yeah, it was. So, ayahuasca was something that was kind of, you know, the old saying, you don’t choose ayahuasca, ayahuasca chooses you. And it all began back in 2018 when somebody that I follow online, some of you might know him, his name is Gerard Adams. He’s a thought leader. And I saw he was very close to me when I lived in LA, he was having a meetup. I didn’t really even know what like…

that meant, but I was like, okay, let me go check him out. And I went there and he’s in a hotel lobby. I’m thinking it’s gonna be like a talk, but it was very informal, just a group of people gathered around the hotel lobby and everything he was talking about was ayahuasca because he had just got back from his first ceremony. I think he did a ceremony in Costa Rica or something like that and he was saying all these.

I guess, spiritual transformation, messages. And I was like, wow, this sounds amazing until it got to one part. So he was talking about how he was raised by his grandma up to the age of 12, and then she passed away. And he had an encounter with his grandma who told him, look, you need to let me go.

And that really struck a nerve because I had lost my mom back in 2013. I was like, up to that point, I was like, ayahuasca sounds amazing. But then I thought, what if I see my mom? I don’t know if I could handle that, at least at that time. So as the story unfolds, I keep meeting people that have done ayahuasca. To that point, I didn’t even know about ayahuasca.

And even my ex-girlfriend at the time, she had done ayahuasca when she was 17 with her dad. So it just kept coming to my conscious. And all I ever heard anyone say is how amazing, how transformative it was that, you know, they cured a physical ailment or they came into abundance afterwards. But again, there was that fear. Up to last year, I finally said, you know what? I’ve had enough. I’m not happy.

Berto Cartagena (03:07.362)

where I’m at, I felt like there was so much more to me and that I just wasn’t, you know, I didn’t feel fulfilled. I didn’t feel successful. And I was like, and that’s what Tony Robbins says, a lot of times we don’t change until the pain of staying the same becomes greater of changing, right? So that’s where I was. And then I wanted to originally go to Peru because I wanted, if I was gonna do it, I wanted to do it right. I wanted it to be very, very official. So…

But then I saw how much Peru was it was very expensive and at the same time There was a bachelor party going on in Colombia for my cousin. So I was like and I was planning to live in Colombia It’s a lot cheaper And I have previously visited so I went to cook So I was looking around for different treats in Colombia and I came across Larara now first I was a little skeptical because I thought you guys looked a little commercial and I wanted something superficial I saw you guys had an Instagram page in a Facebook

But then when I saw that you guys had like a legit Taita and he looked the part and he was Indian and then, you know, indigenous I should say. And then you were very responsive. Like every time I asked you a question, you’re very responsive. You weren’t arrogant. You were quick to respond. So I just got a good feel. And then all the reviews were just nothing but like amazing, amazing reviews. And then the last thing, because, and then lo and behold,

when I was staying in Columbia, there was somebody in my yoga class who actually went to La Jolla. So that was interesting too. So my only concern, this was the last question I asked you Sam, I was like, okay, I see people getting all these amazing transformations, but I was like, is the medicine strong? Because I didn’t hear anybody say, they got crazy visions, everything was like, they found out so much about themselves. I was like, I wanna make sure that I have the real ayahuasca experience. And Sam was like, no.

The medicine is strong. I was like, okay, cool. And that’s how I ended up coming.

Sam Believ (05:13.941)

Was it strong, Berto? Was it strong after you’ve been, you know, what can you say now? Was it strong?

Berto Cartagena (05:17.239)

What’s that?

Berto Cartagena (05:23.118)

Well, funny you mention that, so when I took my first cup, you know, I was just like waiting there, waiting there, waiting there, didn’t feel anything. So the first place my mind went, I was like, oh, I had a feeling, or maybe I got a bad batch or something like that. So I was like, okay, well, at least no problem. I’ll take the second cup because when I originally was gonna go there, I was like, well, you know, maybe I’ll test the waters, one, maybe.

Worked my way up to two, I never even thought I was gonna take three, unless, I don’t know. But yeah, so, originally I thought it wasn’t strong, but I would find out later that, nah, it’s, it definitely is not weak.

Sam Believ (06:09.749)

Okay, so it’s interesting how you describe the ayahuasca calling, you know, once you get into that wavelength, it just starts coming at you from every direction, friends, people, you open your Instagram and it’s there, it’s like once it once you get the calling, it gets very obvious. And as I like to say, sometimes I’m also part of that message and through the podcast and Instagram and Facebook or.

you name it. So it’s very interesting because I remember feeling same thing when I was first starting. Berto, I remember you really well when you came to the retreat and I, you know, as we host on average 700 plus people a year now, so it’s kind of hard to remember everyone. But I remember you because my first impression of you was negative because when you came to one of the first word circles, you’re talking about more about like you wanted to do ayahuasca because of the…

more of a success and growth aspect of it. And you were not slightly tinge-arrogant. And I remember that I was like, no, that’s not really ayahuasca. And then I think it was words after ceremony number three, you completely changed and you switched to spirituality and family. And in my mind, it was one of those impressive transformations. And then after we spoke, you know.

more than a year later to see that not only was this transformation but it’s stuck to you and you started this long spiritual journey and basically changed so much that you know it’s impressive so can you tell us about you know what was going through your mind in the beginning of the retreat what was that experience that changed you so much and maybe afterwards we can talk a little bit about you know your the spiritual journey you went upon

Berto Cartagena (08:04.95)

Yeah, so I mean, I was always spiritual. I grew up Catholic, and then I kind of deviated more into new age, after reading like The Power of Now, and Wishes Fulfilled, and what’s that book by Michael Dyer? All these different books, and then I was, we are gods, we can manifest, we could create, and what I got from those books was a high, right? It was like, oh wow, they make you feel so empowered.

But then at the end of the day, I didn’t really see my life changing much. And so what I mentioned earlier is I felt like there was more to me. Now I always, I’ve never been a shallow person. I think I might’ve come across that way and I see why you may have thought that. And, you know, and you weren’t the only one that said that afterwards when they saw the transformation, but that was the real me, the, I just also, and this, I found out a long time ago, I always had a little.

limiting belief that I wasn’t good enough. And I didn’t know that until I discovered that from my therapist, which I didn’t even, it’s weird. I went because I was interested in reflexology and then this lady was like, well, you know, you should see a psychiatrist or a therapist or something. But I, the funny thing about that is I saw it just because even then, and I was like.

28, 29, making six figures a year. Even then I felt like there was more to me. So I was like, you know, there’s nothing wrong with me. I just want to see a therapist to see if I can elevate, right? And then she told me, she’s like, you have this limiting belief. Your spirit knows you’re good enough, but that little wounded child, that inner child that was bullied, you know, I started, she started, I started remembering all these things. And I was like, wow, how being bullied

being the smallest kid in the class and all these things are playing a role in my, in my current situation. So I think when you’re bullied and you’re the smallest in the class, you have that little man syndrome. Like you always had to prove yourself. Right. And that’s why I wanted to be a rapper or actor. I wanted fame because deep inside I felt inadequate. Um, but I was always a person of depth. It wasn’t like material. Um, I also always wanted to help people.

Berto Cartagena (10:26.882)

Like I felt like I was put on this earth to help to mentor whatever the case may be. Right. So that’s why when I came there, I was talking about, Oh, I want to be a billionaire. I want to be, you know, I feel like cause I felt like I had that, that potential and it wasn’t to buy a bunch of fancy cars and all this that I wanted to do that so I can have an impact. Right. For me, it’s all about impact. But what I realized is sometimes like,

The real important stuff is some of the most basic, smallest things. And that’s what ayahuasca allowed me to uncover that the reason I wasn’t where I wanted to be was because I had a blocked heart. As crazy as that sounds, I wasn’t operating from a place of love. So my first ceremony made me realize like, really what’s important is love, is family for a while.

I didn’t know if I was gonna get married or have children. And it kind of brought back those feelings.

Sam Believ (11:33.517)

Well, yeah, obviously, I understand, you know, we’re deeper than we are being able to perceive. But yeah, you went from that sort of talking about money to talking about family. And for me, it was very satisfying to see because, you know, anytime I drink, I was going to think about money. It always says, you know, let’s talk about something else. It’s not it’s not really that important. The money will come as long as everything else is correct. So can you talk about to us a little bit about how the rest of your journey progressed? I know you went to.

to jungle and drank more and then you went pretty deep in the deep end of spirituality. Tell us, maybe tell us about your journeys. What have you seen? How did it feel?

Berto Cartagena (12:17.738)

Yeah. So there was two particular ceremonies that really stood out. And this is the crazy part. So I, um, I, uh, the first ceremony is arguably the most important, um, because it was crazy. I had made this plan, right? I said, since we have four ceremonies, I’m going to, I’m going to do one intention. Uh,

Confidence one intention creativity one intention clarity because those are the three C’s those are three things I want to focus on and then one for health, right? That was my plan going in something happened to me. Um, I Would describe it now as the Holy Spirit And something said to me right before I was gonna take my first cup it said Ask to be your highest self

which was interesting because I even have the domain, our highest self. And that’s what I want to, and I always tell people about being your highest self and highest self. Everything’s not. So I was like, okay, that makes sense. Took the first cup. Didn’t feel nothing. Took a second cup and I started having faint visions. It was like these red lines. My eyes were closed. I see these red lines, right? And then those red lines started forming a face and it was my face. And I was like,

my face on different magazine covers. I was like, okay, this makes sense. High self magazine covers. This is pretty cool. I’m thinking to myself, I’m like, oh, I must have a good trip, right? Because before I went in, I talked to a lot of people. They’re like, some trips are really beautiful. They’re really fun. They’re really loving. Some are more difficult. So I was like, okay, cool. I have a fun trip. And then while my eyes are closed, I see a flashing light like this, like almost like, you know, like a shooting star or something.

Then I open my eyes and I see somebody running to the bathroom. I looked to the right and the woman besides me, she’s cloaked up. She’s got her thing like this. She’s scrolling and she’s like crying and she looks like the Virgin Mary. And then all of a sudden her face just starts melting. And I’m like, I looked at him. All right. I’m like, hold on. This is I’m tripping. Whatever. Let me see. Let me try it again. I look again and her face is just melting. I’m like, Whoa.

Berto Cartagena (14:43.294)

Because right before that, the ayahuasca, because even though I had a vision there, my other ceremonies, I don’t usually, and even during the war, I think that was the only ceremony I actually had visions. But prior to that, the ayahuasca was like, if you wanna go deeper, drink more. It’s not a voice in your head, it’s just like a download. It’s just like information, you just know. And then when I saw that, I was like, whoa.

I don’t know if I should drink more. I went to the bathroom and I, the medicine is so intuitive. The whole night I was going to the bathroom on my left, something told me, like the ayahuasca was like, go to the right this time. So I go to the right and that person I see going to the bathroom, person comes out. It was almost like a divine moment. It was almost like the taita was just glowing, right? And I was like, taita, and I was trying to speak to him in Spanish, which is not my first language.

And it’s hard for me to even speak it sometimes sober. And I was speaking it on Iowa’s, I’m like, Taita, I don’t know what to do. The Iowaska told me to drink another cup, but then I opened my eyes and this lady’s face is melting. What should I do? And he was just like laughing. But that moment was so important to me because prior to the retreat, I had asked him, I was like, it was important for me to connect with the Taita.

I told him, can I talk? He’s like, well, they don’t really speak too much, whatever. I was like, okay. So it was like, wow, I got my moment. And this really changed the course of everything. He goes, you know, if you want, you could take a half a cup. And then, but this was the most boring. He touched me on my chest. He goes, but remember, the temple of Jesus is within you or something like that, which was a surprise to me because I thought, you know.

I was spiritual new age. I wasn’t Christian or anything like that. And I thought shamans were just, you know, indigenous spiritual people. I didn’t know they were Christian. So when he did that, if I felt a sort of comfort because it was something I was familiar with, right? Because also later on, I will get kind of freaked out because when they were doing like a cleanse, it looks very like, you know, if you come up, if you come from a Christian Catholic background, almost looks like

Berto Cartagena (17:07.318)

demonic, you know, you see this man and you’re tripping, you see somebody with feather hair and they got this, you know, pop, had to look like, I don’t know, like Papa Shango, this old wrestler, and they got the Loara, they got smoke, and I’m like, I’m tripping, I’m like, oh my God, okay, just try to compose myself, these are good people. So when he did that, you know, I felt a sense of comfort, right? So when I went back, I was thinking, okay, should I take another cup?

Should I take a half? You know, the whole time. And then the ayahuasca told me, you see Berto, this is what always happens. You’re always thinking ahead. Just surrender, let go and let things happen. So I was like, I surrender. Then what happens? I see that little light again, or no, this time the little light is on my right perimeter. My eyes are closed, but I see the shining light. I open my eyes, I look to my right, it’s the tita. He’s pouring a third cup. And then I see this,

I forget her name, but the British lady, remember the ayahuasca healed her physical ailment. That was a beautiful experience too. And I see her and she was scared to even take one cup. She was like, should I take a quarter or third? And I see her going up for a third. I was like, if she’s going up, I’m going up. So I go up and he didn’t even ask. He just poured it to the top. I was like, okay. Took the third cup. I lay down and.

All of a sudden I get a vision of my beautiful five-year-old niece who I’m very close to. She’s my heart. And then so I brought smiles to my face. But then, and then she, and then I saw her father, which is my brother. Now I felt all this love, like I never felt so much love for my brother in my life. And then all of a sudden, the ayahuasca tells me he’s, he’s going to die. So I was like.

Like, I was grasping, I was crying so much, and then I had a moment with my father, and I was planning to live and move to Columbia, and I ended up moving back to Puerto Rico. My father’s elderly, and I was showing me how much guilt I would have. And then I had a moment with my sister, and it was crazy. I could feel like the inside of my sister. Like, I went into her body, and I could feel all her pain and all her trauma. It was crazy.

Berto Cartagena (19:31.274)

I think that’s what ended up leading to my first purge. I blacked out. When I purged, it felt like everything was rushing out. I don’t throw up, not ever. Not even when I got drunk, I’ll black out, but I won’t throw up. I hadn’t thrown up in probably 20 years. All of a sudden, I feel this rush, and I felt like my head was gonna explode. Like, I couldn’t hold it, and I thought I was just gonna, my body was just gonna explode. I was like, brah! Like, just crazy.

But afterwards I felt the best I ever felt. And then I had a moment with my mom. My mom passed away. It wasn’t like a divine moment like I mentioned earlier, but it was a moment where I was just like, mom, I love you so much. And I remember just like screaming. I even shout out, you’re not supposed to do this during a ceremony, but I shout out to everyone in the group. I was like, if you love your parents or no, no matter how bad your parents were to you, they,

They could only love you the way they know how to love or the way they were loved. And I was like, love them, forgive. And I just felt like somebody needed to hear that. So yeah, it was just a lot of family. And I also had a moment with my ex, surprisingly. I thought the IOS was gonna tell me that I need to move on. And then, and I actually saw the beauty of her, just like my sister, but in a different way.

I got to see things from her perspective. Like I understood her issues with me and I saw the beauty in her. So it was just crazy that the same thing would happen to my dad. I could see his pain and why he acts a certain way. Like I started getting into these different people’s, like I don’t wanna say body, but like I could understand the way they thought. And it was just like crazy.

Sam Believ (21:22.329)

So regarding your ex girlfriend, is that true that you proposed to her a few days ago?

Berto Cartagena (21:29.086)

Yeah, yeah, so that’s a long story. But it’s an interesting one because that first ceremony, remember I told you there’s two important ceremonies in my life, that first one, it was kind of the foundation for my.

third ceremony and I went to the jungle, by the way. So I connected with the title there. He also, he gave me the cleanse, which at first I thought was demonic. And then it was crazy that, oh, that girl, what was her name? Lisa. This was crazy. It’s just, the medicine’s so crazy. So Lisa was a girl, and this all ties in. Lisa was a girl, the shyest girl in the whole group.

didn’t say anything to anybody. And I saw her, she was the one getting a bunch of cleanses the first night. And I was like, I will never do that. That looks like too weird for me, right? The next night, or the next day, she’s a completely different person. She’s the most bubbly person ever. Like, and she’s, she could like read my thoughts. When I wanted water, I was just thinking to myself, I want water, I don’t feel like it. She was like, you want water? And then there was another moment where she was like,

because the titans basically was with her all night because she was seeing like demonic spirits or whatever. And then she goes, hey, do you want to talk to the titan? At first I was like, no, I’m good. Because after the first ceremony, by the way, I thought I never needed to take ayahuasca again. I thought I was good for life. So anyway, I’m like, no, no. But then ayahuasca was like, no, surrender. Why not have this opportunity to talk with the titans? I talked with him. Anyway, he gave me.

He was like, you want to cleanse? And it was so crazy looking back at it because usually you do a cleanse when you’re having a hard time, right? But I was chilling. I was chilling. My intention was leadership. I was getting all this information about being a leader. He was like, you want to cleanse? I was like, remember the night before I was like, oh, that looks weird. I was like, okay. Because I was like surrender. I was like, okay, there’s a reason. Man, when he gave me that cleanse.

Berto Cartagena (23:45.106)

It was like he was putting water on me or the flower stuff. I started shaking, like, like shaking. Like I felt like I was possessed and he was just getting the demon out of me. And I couldn’t figure out whether I was cold but didn’t make sense because yes, I had my shirt off but I was in front of the fire and wasn’t cold or whether, you know, something else was going on. So I connected with him. He felt like my grandfather. It was torture at first, but afterwards it was great. So I connected with him and he invited me to.

to the jungle where he’s from. I was like, I would really, and how that came about was, I had just got back from Columbia to Puerto Rico in March, and then I just followed up with him. I was like, and like the end of March, thinking, you know, it was gonna be the end of April, maybe I could make it out there. He goes, look, there’s a big retreat going on in April. Can you make it? I was like, oh, it’s the end of March. You’re talking about April 2nd. But I looked at flights, I was like.

Let me look at flights. There wasn’t anything April 2nd, but there was something April 5th. So I went there and I told my friends, I was like, look, I’m just going there. I want to see how they live. And I even asked you, Sam, I was like, you know, do you think, when is the next time you think you should take IOS? People were like, oh, you know, it’s not something you want to do so often, maybe a year or whatever. So I was like, I’m just going to go check it out. And my friend goes, you’re going to go to Amazon around Taipei, you’re not going to drink? Please. So anyway, but, so I go there.

And I talked to the tita, I was like, you know, I was just coming to see how you guys live. And this tita didn’t even show up, it was his brother. But his brother is the head tita, he’s Fernando’s dad. So I asked him, I was like, what do you think? He goes, if the medicine calls you to drink, you could drink, I was like, okay, cool. So I drank, it was very biblical. This was around Easter time, and I could feel the suffering of Jesus. Like, it was crazy, but.

Going back to the third ceremony, this is how it all comes full circle. Very similar to the first ceremony. The Holy Spirit again, I didn’t recognize this as the Holy Spirit, only when I talked to my brother, and some people might call it something else, that’s irrelevant, but my brother was like, that’s the Holy Spirit. When I was gonna connect with my past lives or my ancestors and the Holy Spirit came to me, he goes, ask God what he wants from you. Not a voice, again, this is like a download.

Berto Cartagena (26:06.194)

ask God what he wants from me. And then at first I was like, oh shoot. I’m kind of scared actually, because what if God wants me to be like, do something crazy and be a priest and be a virgin? Like those are the thoughts going through my head. And I was like, but I surrender, I was like, okay, cool. And the whole time I’m like prepping myself. I’m like talking to myself and like, okay, this is this, you’re good, you’re loving. Da-da-da-da, like I was prepping myself, right? This most, I’m not gonna lie, most of my ceremonies, like I ended up doing 11.

total ceremonies by the way, that year. Most of my ceremonies have been very, very difficult. Like out of the 11, I would say maybe like six or seven were the hardest times of my life. Like the most difficult times of my life. Especially that first one. So anyway, so when I drank the medicine, God came to me right away. No visual, oh no, I was first you, the same thing that

you do a lawyera, except with them it’s a hand maker, you’re on a hand maker laying down. And I close my eyes and I see like a pattern. It was almost like a sand mountain, it had like curves. All of a sudden, the face, the face turned into what I perceived as God. Later on I would figure out it was Jesus, because he had a beard, but my intuition told me it’s God, but Jesus and God are the same thing. So, and then this is the crazy part, when I open my eyes.

I look to the right and there’s a palm tree, the sign of the cross. And it’s Easter Sunday. Easter Sunday God came to me and said, I want you to do two things. I want you to be a messenger and I want you to marry Julia. Now Julia’s my ex who in the wire of the medicine showed me how beautiful she was and you know, but we weren’t, we still weren’t born. I was talking to her. She had told me she’s happy being single. I was like, alright.

whatever and I was like Julia she’s not even Christian she’s in Poland she’s single like we’re not even going out she goes God said don’t worry she’ll say yes okay whatever and he said be a messenger and then I got some other information that the world was ending because and

Berto Cartagena (28:34.206)

not ending in the way we think, like an Armageddon type of way, no, but the suffering was ending. He said, we’ve been suffering long enough. And then when I thought about me being a messenger, because one of the reasons I haven’t been as vocal, even though I feel like that’s my purpose in life, is two reasons, one imposter syndrome, the other one was I’m scared that if I speak my mind, that eventually anybody that becomes a messenger, you know, like, yeah.

they usually end up dead or in jail. But God told me, it was crazy. God told me he’s like, Biden, Putin, they don’t have shit on me. And God was speaking to me in my voice. That’s what’s crazy about it. And I’ve heard from other people that God will appear to you like in your image, what we’re made in his image, right? So anyway, so I was like, okay, cool. I’m gonna follow God. I bought a ring. I will head to Europe. All right, planning to marry her.

And then she told me some things that I was like, hell no, there’s no way I can marry this girl. I was like, no, why would God? God was like, God, what it, and then I questioned everything that I had learned in that ceremony. I was like, I was like, I was like, bullshit, you know, my experience, and it was so disheartening because I was so sure. God told me, he was like, and God, this is how I know it was God.

He said, when you go, I was sitting on, Sam knows this, I like to go by myself and I find my little spots by myself. I did the same thing in Loera, did the same thing in the jungle and I was sitting on a rock. That’s what I was talking to God. And he goes, when you go back to the Maloka, the circle, he goes, I’m gonna prove to you, God, this person is going to bow down.

He gave me the name and gave me exactly what she was going to do. I said, okay, scroll up. I was sitting there on my local, just meditating. I had forgot about what God told me because you’re so in the zone that you’re just experiencing it. And then as I opened my eyes, I didn’t know she was across from me. The same lady he said goes down and goes like, she didn’t know. She was like, her eyes are rolling in the back of her head and she literally goes like that.

Berto Cartagena (30:59.934)

My hair’s just sticking up right now, guys. My hair’s just sticking up. I was like, holy crap. So I was so sure that was God. Like, he proved it to me. And you just know. And then when that happened, I was like, no way, God. And then what I realized when I got back to Puerto Rico, and then I was like, I’m going back to the jungle. I got a bone to pick with God. I was like, there’s no way he would’ve, he would’ve done, he wouldn’t want me to marry this girl. No way. I realized that I still had some more.

you know, healing to do from an ego perspective. And then, yeah, so I worked, even before I went back to the jungle for my, three, four, seven, eight, nine ceremony, even before I went back there, I already realized that I have two options. I can love this person unconditionally, or I can just throw away the love because of my ego, because they don’t fit this certain mold, because they’re not exactly how I wanted them to be or expected them to be.

So it was a learning experience for me, but like Sam said, just now I finally am sure that she’s the one that I proposed and yeah, that was April 9th. So a little over a week ago.

Sam Believ (32:14.949)

Well, congratulations. Um, is, uh, it’s a very interesting story and yeah, it’s important for people to understand, even if you get a message from ayahuasca, a realization, it’s not all going to be immediate, uh, as I like to say, also work with ayahuasca is, um, two steps forward, one step back process. It’s not all just, um, it’s not the magic bullet or magic pill. You take it, all the problems go away.

It is an experience, it is a journey and you obviously are on your journey. Something you mentioned about Taitas and how they are Christian, a lot of people get surprised by it, a lot of people see it as something negative and a lot of people think it’s something comforting because it’s the version, it’s the only version of spirituality they know but what my personal look on it is that…

In my very last ceremony I saw angels but not the angels you see in like a children’s book but the angels, the Bible specific angels like how they were described originally and they’re a bit monstrous looking like beings but the presence is definitely divine and I realized that you know people who were writing Bible they were seeing something very similar and getting similar information and there is

There’s even some proof now that Christianity might have been a psychedelic cult in its roots. So for me, it does not seem that impossible to believe that Christianity was also envisioned through psychedelics. Or even, you know, your work with the solar breath works, you can achieve those states and see those things.

Obviously, I don’t have all the answers, but I think that it’s not that separate. Obviously, the religion, the original spiritual core, the vision, the understanding, you know, put the other cheek, the love, the acceptance, the forgiveness, that is all true. But I don’t necessarily agree with what happened to Christianity later on and Catholicism and the strictness of it and how the church sort of looks now.

Sam Believ (34:37.685)

it became very human in those last few thousands of years. And together with that humanness, it took a lot of politics and stuff like that. So, but I do believe that the original core message is very, very true. What I also noticed for regarding religion is that no matter what religion you believe in, Ayahuasca takes you closer to that because I do believe that

There is one God and there’s different many ways you can look at it in different sort of perspectives and in a way it’s all kind of true because you know it’s more flexible than that. What are your thoughts and I know you took a deep dive into Christianity, you read the Bible. Tell us about how ayahuasca and Christianity combines in your worldview.

Berto Cartagena (35:16.472)

Yeah.

Berto Cartagena (35:31.542)

Well, do you know why the titles are Christian? At least this particular tribe.

Sam Believ (35:38.635)

I mean, they’re probably baptized by the Spanish people, but the next story, you know, tell me.

Berto Cartagena (35:42.154)

Nope, nope, nope. So, a lot of people don’t know this. And so, I was talking with the head titer, Fernando’s dad, and his name’s Jose, beautiful person. I go, hey, did you ever connect with your past lives? He goes, yeah.

I tried to, or your ancestors, I think I told them, your genealogy, he goes, yeah, but it goes back longer than a river. That’s what he told me, right? And I go, wow. And then I go, and I was probing him with questions, and it’s beautiful because they don’t open up to everybody. I had to earn his trust. At first, they’re quiet, they feel you out, you know? And then I go, how did…

These titans know with all these different plants to take this plant and that plant and put it together. Like how, how’d they know?

He goes, the Incas, the lineage stems back to the Incas. He goes, during that time, the Incas didn’t have their own culture. They were kind of just, you know, a product of like European, but they didn’t have their own culture. They didn’t know their own culture, right? And then I was like, hmm, okay. And he said, Jesus.

Jesus came to them and he plucked the hair from his hair. He said, take this and you shall know my father.

Berto Cartagena (37:33.546)

Or take this and you shall know your culture. Pluck the hair out of his beard. Take this and you shall know my father. So they believe Jesus gave them the medicine. That’s something you won’t find in Google. But here’s the interesting part. I told that story to my friend who also had a very, very similar ayahuasca experience with me. He was called to be a healer on the physical side. I feel like I’m more healer on.

Spiritual side I guess you could say but they’re both spiritual but he said that he also got a calling like where the West and The indigenous culture need to come together, right? and there’s a blend they’re not separate, right and He said when I told him that story he was like, oh my god He was like and he according to him

He said he connects with the angel Gabriel. And when he was reading his book of Mormon, angel Gabriel told him to stop at a certain page that says that Jesus came to the Americas. I’m not telling you guys what to believe. I’m just telling you what’s out there, right? So the book of Mormon, which stems back even before the Bible, even before Jesus times, right? If you believe it’s accurate. I’m not talking about the religion Mormon that came later, but I’m talking about the book of Mormon.

The Book of Mormon says Jesus came to the Americas. Titus say, Jesus came to them. So when I got back from my ayahuasca journeys, I became interested in the Bible because I have biblical visions that I didn’t know were biblical visions, but my brother’s very Christian. I started explaining to him what I saw. Like I saw the tearing of the veil. I saw the Ark of the Covenant, which I didn’t even know.

So I was like, wow. So I started believing more in Christian, but in the Bible and Christianity. But here’s the thing, I thought, okay, the Bible is a book with wisdom. It’s like mythological. I thought some of it’s real, some of it’s not. So I began delving in deeper, right? But, and this goes to your point, the Bible’s perfect. What’s not perfect are humans.

Berto Cartagena (39:57.214)

and human’s interpretations and I realized that because people were saying things in the Bible like ayahuasca is demonic, da-da-da-da-da. But guess what? The Holy Spirit came to me. Here’s the thing, you don’t need ayahuasca. Ayahuasca is not God. Ayahuasca is an instrument that can bring you closer to God. We need to realize that, right? So ayahuasca…

So all of my Christians were like, don’t do that stuff, don’t get into spiritual wrong, blah, blah. So it was very conflicted. And I talked to my other friend, I was like, how do you feel about this? Cause you’re a super Christian. He was like, nah man, you know, the medicine, the medicine’s good, whatever. And here’s what the Holy Spirit came to me in scripture. You know what a lot of these Christians sound like? Not all, not all, I do not all, cause I’m not trying to pick on religion or anything, but.

There’s a scripture that says the Pharisees came to Jesus and they accused them of being Baal. You’re like, Baal is the devil, right? They said, you cast spells and you healed the sick. And Jesus said back to them, now I’m paraphrasing, he said, well, if I healed the sick, wouldn’t that be the devil working against himself?

Why would the devil want to heal people? So that scripture talked to me. Because why, why would, if it’s demonic, why would a demon want to heal people and bring them closer to God? Is the devil going to work against himself? I never heard anybody say, oh, I love Satan after all. I was going to say, no, I love God. Whatever that God is to you, right?

So I think Christians mean a lot of times, but I think they misinterpret things, and I think they take things out of context. So we have to think about what was going on at that time, because there was a lot of black magic, and child sacrifices, and witch doctors that were using this stuff for bad things. They weren’t using this stuff to heal people, right? They weren’t bringing this up. So when Christians tell me, oh, ayahuasca is a sin, I go, you know what? You know what’s sin?

Berto Cartagena (42:23.83)

Sin is a disconnection from God. It is spiritual death. Iowasa brings you closer to God and a spiritual life. So, and sin is anything that doesn’t honor God, right? So how could Christian Taitas, who are healing people in the name of Jesus, be demonic?

So if you’re, and I’m sure there’s a lot of people out there, if you’re struggling with the religious part of ayahuasca, you feel like it goes against your faith or whatever, you know, pray about it, pray about it. And here’s the thing, I prayed about it. And immediately the Holy Spirit came to me and goes, cause I was gonna go back to the jungle again. Just so happens that it didn’t work, you know, financially, logistically, whatever.

But God reminded me, he goes, remember what I told you on that rock? I said, I’m not mean. I don’t know why everybody thinks I’m mean. You think I’m gonna, you know, you’re gonna go out there and you’re gonna drink ayahuasca and I’m gonna let something happen to you? That’s not, that’s not God. So anyway, I thought that was important to share.

Sam Believ (43:38.821)

It’s a good cherry. Ayahuasca is not a sin. That wouldn’t make a lot of sense because I’ve met a lot of people discovering God and connecting to different versions of it through Ayahuasca. So it wouldn’t make much sense if Ayahuasca was bad and there’s so many people that come and heal it. I do agree with you as well. You know, Ayahuasca is not God. It’s the tool. It’s…

think about it as a an antenna as a radio is something that strengthens your signal and strengthens your connection. But and the God is one there’s many ways to describe it. But you can definitely I’ve never been a spiritual person never been a religious person before working with Alaska and I came to Alaska to heal physically and mentally I didn’t care about the spiritual side of it. I thought it was just

gimmick a side effect but inevitably through my own experiences and through other people’s experience you start to sort of form the worldview where spirituality is a part of it. To such an extent that now I do believe that we are a spiritual beings living a physical existence and you kind of understand it because when we get born and when we die it is a very spiritual experience. There’s even if you’re zero spiritual and you believe that

When you die you will get reconnected to it because I believe this is where we’re going. And yeah, it’s definitely an interesting and very deep topic to be explored in depth. I need to get some priest who drinks ayahuasca and openly admits it or any other…

Berto Cartagena (45:23.734)

You know, there is a cult, there’s a, there’s a ayahuasca Christian like cult, whatever in Brazil I heard there’s Christians that drink ayahuasca. It’s really interesting. And I heard they’re very selective who they, they allow. You have to kind of be chosen or whatever, but there is a, um, there is a group that, that does both. Um, and the other part that I want to add onto that, um, I love the, the antenna comparison, but also.

Because now it’s almost like, I wouldn’t say I have, like it feels like I’m ayahuasca, but I’m more spiritually connected. But also I believe that purge, ayahuasca maybe doesn’t even connect you with God or spirit, but it removes everything that’s preventing you from connecting with God. Cause God is in all of us, but sometimes, you know, if you got a problem with alcohol or porn or, you know, sin basically, which is the…

If you’re living that life and that’s all inside of you, you know, then that’s what that purges is like, it’s not a purge like, Oh, I got out. I’m just throwing it up. No, it’s a purge of like, you’re purging all that negativity, those emotions. And when you cleanse that now it’s almost like you just opened up the highway. Right now you have a direct connection where it’s just kind of what you were saying with the antenna. So I think it’s both things. I think it opens you up for sure.

but it also cleans you out whatever’s preventing you from having that connection.

Sam Believ (46:59.161)

Definitely so definitely a very cleansing medicine and it feels more than just physical cleanse. It does feel like something is Leaving your body It’s interesting. You mentioned that Jose is Fernando’s brother. Obviously Gonzalo. They’re all from the same family. We’ve been working With that family for more than two years now Jose just came here. He was here for the inauguration of the Maloka that we just finished building

And I drank with him again. I drank with him maybe three years ago in the jungle as well. This is when I met both him and Fernando and Gonzalo. And it’s interesting. Yeah, he’s every type that has their own little feel to it. And they’re slightly different. One thing I wanted to correct you and they’re not Inca, they’re Inca with the G. They do say they come from Inca. They…

They say it’s like a part of Inca tribe that migrated to Colombia, but they they’re called Inca. It’s one of the five tribes in Colombia that works with ayahuasca.

Berto Cartagena (48:04.178)

Oh no, I’m saying their ancestry, their lineage comes from the Inca lineage. I didn’t know what their actual tribe name, but thank you for that. Somebody asked me once when I was saying, and I didn’t know what tribe name, but cool. But yeah.

Sam Believ (48:11.61)

Mm-hmm.

Sam Believ (48:18.773)

Yeah, they say they come from Incas and it’s an interesting, also interesting story. Try to understand, you know, how they were running away from Spaniards kind of deeper in a jungle and ended up in Columbia. But how is your life now, Berto? How are you? What are you working on? I know you for a while you were trying to be the spokesman for Ayahuasca and the Christianity. What are you up to these days?

Berto Cartagena (48:46.158)

So yeah, I think the last part to have come.

Berto Cartagena (48:53.674)

Well, interesting enough, so this is also an ayahuasca. So when God called me to be a messenger, right, I thought God meant be an influencer, right? Because God, as I got to know God and read the word, God will tell you what to do. He won’t tell you how. So he told me to be a messenger. So I thought.

that men be an influencer. So I was like, okay, what topics would be good? Now I’m mixing God. And then I came back and I didn’t have the…

Christian or spiritual acumen. Like I’ve made some content. I was like, Muslims and Christians are all right. They’re both right. Like I just made stuff that felt right to me at the time, but I didn’t know enough to be saying certain things. So I was confused for a while, right? And then the other thing was that I…

Well, there’s two points I want to make to this, it’s very important. When I got back after I went to Laiwhaora, I was feeling great. Went to the jungle Easter, came back feeling amazing, but I didn’t listen to God. I actually, I was trading crypto and

I was on fire. I turned $1500 to $15,000. That’s why I booked a trip to Europe. But I didn’t listen to God. I was like, oh, when I get money, I’ll get, you know, I can publish, grow my brand more, blah, blah. At first I was, I was doing some content, but then I got into crypto. And here’s the thing, like, it’s really hard. It’s really hard to give up things that you’re attached to.

Berto Cartagena (50:52.35)

And sometimes even things that don’t seem like it’s bad, because yeah, you’re making a lot of money or yeah, I’m a Christian, I go to church, but I’m eating like crap. That’s still a sin. You’re still, these things, if you don’t eat good, you’re disconnecting yourself from God. If you’re gambling, it doesn’t always have to be that obvious. Like it could be small stuff. And I realized that crypto, like every two seconds I was checking my, and that became my God.

So ask yourself, what’s your God anyway? so

same way God give, God take it away. That $15,000 I gained was wiped out in a day because I was doing some heavy leverage trading for those of you that don’t know. Basically, if I had $1,000, I could 10X, which means I was really trading with 10,000. But if you gain 10%, you gain $1,000, right? 10% of 10,000. But if you lose 10% and where it goes down and crypto goes down, crazy, then you lose that $1,000. So yeah, you could gain a lot, you could lose it all. It’s not like traditional.

So I lost that in a day.

Now this ties into another thing. I just to support my niece who lives in Columbia. She wanted, she saw the effects that ayahuasca had on me. She wanted to do ayahuasca ceremony. So I went, I did a one nighter with her. Nothing crazy. Didn’t see a big deal. Taito Jose, somebody was asking Taito Jose, shoot, it was a girl in my July retreat. She goes, hey, my friend wants me to do ayahuasca with her in Argentina. She knows this really good, but I don’t know. I don’t know if I should, you know,

Berto Cartagena (52:30.754)

go with another medicine because sometimes it could cut your blessings, right? Just saying it’s Spanish. So then I look at the taita and he goes, yes, that’s true. Like if you mix another medicine, it could cut your blessings off. And then in the back of my head, I’m going, okay, well, every taita thinks their medicine is the best. Although I do think Taita Jose is amazing and everybody says the same thing. But in the back of my head, I was like, you know, I had a ceremony. Nothing went wrong.

with mine, you know? But I didn’t say that, I wanna be respectful. But I was thinking it. Next day, I wake up, I was like, after I had that ceremony, I lost $15,000, I went to Europe and didn’t marry my girlfriend, I lost my job, I stopped creating content, I was like.

Okay, maybe there’s something to this. So I’m saying that because I think it’s very important that you’re thinking about ayahuasca that you don’t go just jumping around and you don’t just go with the cheapest. You don’t go with who your friend says. You don’t go wherever got the most likes on Facebook or wherever got the coolest. I think it’s very important that you take it with somebody you trust. And that’s why I refer a lot of people to you guys because especially first timers.

You know, I think there’s no better place you could go for your first time because the jungle is amazing. Taito Jose, he’s the best, but he, his son is at LaWara. Fernando is arguably the best musician I’ve ever been around. You know how I feel about that. And then also the support that you guys give because my girlfriend, for instance, did Ayahuasca and she did a one-nighter and she said she was so depressed and suicidal.

So it’s very important and if you go to jungle, you don’t know Spanish, it’s hard for you to communicate. Again, I’m not saying you shouldn’t go to the jungle. I think if you’re experiencing, you should experience it, but for your first time, it’s a challenge to get there. I think O’Wara is great for first timers and non-first timers, but especially first timers. So, so yeah. So anyway, I’m saying all that to say this. So I had to go through a lot of struggle and then I was doing marketing. I didn’t wanna do marketing, but.

Berto Cartagena (54:52.498)

I had a limiting belief that, you know, how am I going to make money being a life coach or a mentor or whatever? And then I realized, and I’m still working through this, that I have to take the leap of faith. I know what I was meant to do. God told me what I was meant to do. But God wants you to have faith. And sometimes, faith is not believing in the unseen.

Right? Just because I don’t know how I’m going to make money doing this, it doesn’t mean that I should settle for less and do what I’ve been doing, which for some reason or another never works out. And I think that’s the universe, God, whatever you call it, pushing me towards. So I, um, I’m right now, I’m going to be creating content. I realize what my message is now. And I feel like I have enough acrimony in regards to spirituality, Christianity. I know enough.

And I realized that at its core, all religions are saying the same thing. You know, there’s little tweaks and stuff, but you know, because I delved so much into new age and then I delved into Christianity and they’re saying they’re using different language. I’ll give you an example today. It was like, I think our purpose is in life is for our consciousness to evolve. That’s new age terminology, but that’s not really that much different to saying.

our purpose in life is to carry on God’s will. It’s really not much difference when you start realizing what God’s will is, right? And we’re here to love, we’re here to surrender, we’re here to go with life’s flow. Buddhism, Christianity, my girlfriend was raised in Buddhist, so I’m familiar with these. So I wanna get that message out there to people and in a nutshell, I wanna help people become unstuck because just like I was unstuck.

That’s something that I have experience with and I wanna share with others. So whether that’s content, mentoring, coaching, that’s what’s next for Birdo.

Sam Believ (56:57.285)

Thank you Berto, that’s a beautiful message. So if somebody wants to hear more about your message, where can they find that and hear it?

Berto Cartagena (57:06.382)

Sure, all across social media is Berto Cartagena. For some reason, my Twitter got hacked and suspended. I gotta mess with that. But YouTube, Berto Cartagena, B-R-T-O, Cartagena, like the city in Spain, C-A-R-T-A-G-E-N-A. Please reach out. I believe in healing. A lot of people will only do things for money, but if I could help you, if I could point you in the right direction, I’m more than happy to do that as well.

Sam Believ (57:35.065)

Thank you, Berto. Thank you for sharing your story. I think it’s fascinating and good luck on your spiritual journey.

Berto Cartagena (57:43.222)

Thank you Sam, hope to see you guys in a not so distant future and thank you for having me on. Alright, take care, bye.

Sam Believ (57:50.085)

See you soon, Berta.

In this episode of AyahuascaPodcast.com host Sam Believ has a conversation with Joshua Sylvae

We touch upon subjects of somatic experiencing, psychedelics, trauma work, how to know if you have trauma and how to know if it is healed.

Find more about Joshua Sylvae at http://www.sylvae.net

http://www.traumahealing.org

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:03.153)

As always with you the host Sambiliyev. Our guest today is Joshua Sylvay. Joshua has been in the field of somatics since 2003. He has MA in clinical psychology, PhD in higher learning and social change. He is licensed marriage and family therapist and a faculty member at the Somatic Experiencing and Trauma Institute. Joshua, welcome to the podcast.

Joshua Sylvae (00:33.358)

Hey, thanks so much for having me.

Sam Believ (00:36.769)

Joshua, before we begin, tell us a little bit about yourself and what brought you into that field of work.

Joshua Sylvae (00:45.198)

been really interested in healing for a good long while now. Started off actually as an activist and was working against environmental devastation. Realized at a certain point that didn’t seem like we could talk people into making different choices as regards to our relationship with the natural world. And started to realize that trauma, I think, is at the root of a lot of these very destructive practices that

modern humans have adopted. Got interested in somatic experiencing as a way of understanding how we as animals might inhibit the release of traumatic stress and create ongoing cycles of dysregulation and a lack of resilience. And have kind of made that my life’s purpose for the last couple of decades. I’ve worked as a

Psychotherapist and focused on somatic experiencing. I’m now more in the education side, working with professionals who are themselves interested in treating trauma and distress.

Sam Believ (01:59.809)

That’s a very familiar story. You start working with trying to help yourself and then you eventually start helping others. That’s very inspiring. Joshua, for those who don’t know, what is somatic experiencing?

Joshua Sylvae (02:14.734)

Well, the first word somatic is related to the Greek soma and it just means of the body and experiencing of course is the present tense awareness of our moment to moment here and now process. So what we do in somatic experiencing is really in we weave the body into a therapeutic process where

We’re not just looking at thoughts or emotions, but also at sensations. So getting curious about what the moment to moment shifting experiences of being in a body. Oftentimes we gain access to what we might think of as bottom up information. Much of therapy these days is about top down control. So you try to engineer a different way of thinking, talk yourself out of different feeling states.

and try to domesticate the inner landscape. Semantic experiencing is much more about getting curious in terms of how our nervous system might have imprints that store trauma, that keep us stuck and locked into cycles of dissatisfying fight or flight responses, or the freeze response, the shutdown response.

Sam Believ (03:42.113)

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense because we do nowadays talk a lot, spend a lot of time talking and not a lot of time paying attention to the body. And how this looks, you know, let’s say a session of somatic experiencing, how does it look in practice? How do you get people to release stuff from their body?

Joshua Sylvae (04:06.766)

Often starting off with stabilization. So the first phase of the work is very much dedicated to helping nervous systems to function more in the way that we’re designed. A lot of people who have trauma are in cycles of dissociation, you know, where we’ve withdrawn our attention from the environment or hypervigilance, where we know there’s something wrong and we’re desperately trying to figure out what it is.

very little orientation, you know, connecting to the environment through the senses. And so one of the first things we’ll do often is to invite people back into the practice of becoming aware of the external environment.

Then we’ll progress on to attending to the whole of our experience. Oftentimes people who have trauma have gotten locked into a focus on what doesn’t feel good. So, you know, this obsessive cataloging of my distressing thoughts, my painful emotions, and my uncomfortable sensations. We invite people to also notice the other side of experience, that there’s moments of pleasure.

moments of comfort, moments of ease. And it’s just as important that we attend to those and really dedicate ourselves to feeling those and making sure that we’re aware of that as well. That facilitates what Peter Levine, the originator of somatic experiencing called pendulation, this movement back and forth between what we might think of as positive, i .e. I like it, or negative, i .e. I don’t like it, experiences.

Once we’ve kind of established that, you know, the supporting people to be able to do activation and deactivation, so they’re not just getting stuck in the fight or flight or freeze response, then we move on to working directly with traumatic imprints. As we do that, we inquire into the body’s experience. We see what might be incomplete in different events that a person has not been able to integrate.

Joshua Sylvae (06:17.134)

So sometimes the body wasn’t able to complete a motoric response. There was a desire to run away from a situation that we weren’t able to complete. There was a desire to fight back against an aggressor that we were overpowered or got too scared to actually be able to do. There was some emotion that was too strong.

for us too much. And so we just kind of tried to push it away. We kind of seek out these little pockets of incomplete experience and then try to create a safe environment where people can actually start to move that through. Often as that happens, there will be a discharge of energy. So it seems like the nervous system gets into patterns of maintaining a kind of chronic stress in the nervous system.

may be accompanied by bodily tension. And as we start to move that through, you’ll see this quite amazing spontaneous release. Could be in the form of tears, could be in the form of shaking, could be some other kind of process. But it seems to be a part of how bodies release intense survival energy.

And Peter Levine observed this in the animal world. Much of his early work was informed by watching nature videos and seeing how prey animals, when they made their escape, would find a safe place, maybe back within the herd, maybe somewhere far enough away from a predator that they know they’re safe, and then they would begin to spontaneously shake and tremble, yawning.

you know, so many different things that the body does in this automatic way seem to be really geared towards releasing those energies. And it seems like modern humans block that release in some fashion. And so our work is really dedicated to creating the right kind of environment so that we can move through, find out what’s incomplete, let that complete, and then facilitate the discharge, the release of that energy.

Sam Believ (08:44.321)

That’s great. Yeah, I remember hearing about that. I don’t remember where, but about, you know, the deer when it’s hunted, if it runs away, it shakes. So a couple of times when I drive and I get into like a near accident situation, which is pretty common here in Columbia where I live, the roads are a little crazy. I remember that and I actually shake a little bit and I don’t know if it helps or not, but I think it’s an interesting…

Joshua Sylvae (09:01.71)

no.

Hmm.

Sam Believ (09:13.281)

interesting thing to try. So you talk about the spontaneous release and involuntary body movements, shaking, crying, etc. We observe here at our retreat that sometimes ayahuasca does exactly that. It somehow brings in people that involuntary aspect and they start to release tension that way. Do you know…

Joshua Sylvae (09:24.558)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Sam Believ (09:41.249)

Do you know maybe of a mechanism or what do you think is happening there when you work with psychedelics?

Joshua Sylvae (09:49.39)

Well, it appears that many of the classic psychedelics, which many people classify ayahuasca as such, although there’s some debate, work on serotonergic pathways, specifically targeting certain serotonin receptors. And what many neuroscientists have pointed out is that those

serotonergic pathways are largely involved in inhibiting what’s called downstream processing. So in the brain, there’s always a tremendous amount of stuff going on. You know, we’re aware of just the barest sliver of mental processing happening at any given time. And when we take a psychedelic, it seems like it allows us to gain access to what’s happening.

and would be normally below the threshold of our awareness. And so it facilitates that union of body and mind where the higher brain is able to become aware of the things that are happening below the surface. Often as those pathways are opened up, in a similar way, I think, to what happens with somatic experiencing, but also different.

You know, you get that same bottom up effect where our emotional brain, the part of our nervous system that lives in our body, are able to start to speak to us more clearly. We’re able to hear them more clearly. And there can be then the accessing of trapped energy and the release of it. So I think, you know, I’m currently working on a text actually.

related to somatics and psychedelics. And I think that they do in a sense, similar things. Paying attention to the body, receiving information in that wordless language of our body, and ingesting psychedelics both facilitate this bottom -up processing, which, you know, as we said, isn’t as prevalent in modern approaches.

Joshua Sylvae (12:14.542)

to healing and therapy. So I’m really excited, you know, both about somatics, also about the potential of psychedelics, because we need not just to try to control our inner experience, but rather to befriend it and to allow what needs to move through us to be felt and attended to.

Sam Believ (12:40.801)

So it’s interesting that you mentioned the word control because a lot of work that we do here when we prepare people to drink ayahuasca is to teach them how to let go of control and build a certain amount of trust where they can sort of let go of their ego, let go of control and allow the experience to take charge.

Joshua Sylvae (13:07.726)

Mm -hmm.

Sam Believ (13:07.905)

So I think it’s, I think it is very similar, as you say, bottom up. Do you, have you ever thought about maybe some interesting way to combine those two modalities? Let’s say you use psychedelics to unlock and unblock, and then you use the somatic experiences, somatic, somatic experiencing to process the trauma quicker. Has there any work been done in that direction?

Joshua Sylvae (13:37.902)

I don’t know about work in any sense of, you know, experimental study, but certainly it’s been happening for a long time. You know, in the states, there’s the underground psychedelic therapy movement. And in those spaces, I’ve noticed more of an openness to somatics than I see in the mainstream psychotherapy world.

It seems to be recognized by people who are familiar with psychedelic medicines that having a focus on the body is really, really helpful. And a lot of the things that, you know, where myself and my co -author, Manuela Mishke reads, a lot of the things that we’re going to be talking about in our book are specifically about that. You know, how useful it is for the guide or therapist to invite the journey or to notice their bodies.

pay attention to what’s happening in the body and incorporate that into their journey.

Sam Believ (14:42.689)

Can you tell us a little bit about your book? When is it coming out? Do you have the title yet?

Joshua Sylvae (14:48.974)

Yeah, well there’s a working title. It’s Embodied Journeys. Not sure what we’ll settle on. And we’re contracted to complete the book soon with the publisher. And hopefully it’ll be out by the end of the year.

Sam Believ (15:12.289)

Okay, so for those who are listening closer to the end of 2024, check out the book. So in what I’ve heard from what you talk about, there seems to be this conflict between somatic approach and talk therapy, because one focuses largely on the brain and the thoughts and what’s happening up here and the other about the body.

Do you reckon there is some kind of consensus where they could be used together or for example, when we do our ayahuasca retreats, we do a lot of group talk therapy and it seems to be very helpful in conjecture with previous release and people actually open up and they can share more deeply. Sometimes they are even able to uncover trauma and then talk about it. So is there use for talk therapy in your…

paradigm.

Joshua Sylvae (16:12.014)

absolutely. You know, somatic experiencing is part of the emerging field of somatic psychotherapy. Though, SCE can be practiced either using dialogue or talk. It can also be done, you know, using touch. But I’m a licensed marriage and family therapist, you know, I talk to my clients and, and though I’m certainly wanting to

weave in the sensation that people experience. The technical term is interoception. So, you know, exteroception is when I’m noticing the external environment. Interoception is when I’m feeling sensations in my body. And, you know, that’s what distinguishes somatic psychotherapy from other approaches to mental health is that it welcomes in that somatic dimension. But certainly,

You know, we want to be able to attend to, I think, all the different layers of experience. Peter Levine and his SE model introduced the idea of SIBAM that, you know, with our clients, we want to be paying attention to and welcoming in the S of sensation, the I of image, the B of behavior, the A of affect,

which is the fancy psychological jargon term for emotion, and then the of meaning. So we’re attending to thoughts, images, emotions, sensations, and then as the practitioner also noticing postures and gestures and qualities of voice, all of those different things. And my goal is for people to certainly to be aware of the body.

to welcome in information from the body and to do that in a holistic way that also welcomes in the ways that we make meaning, our emotional life, images, spontaneous pictures that show up in the mind’s eye. All of that is necessary. We focus on the sensation part, on the somatic part, I think because it’s the piece that’s most often underrepresented in the experience of modern humans.

Joshua Sylvae (18:37.294)

You know, many people, I think just by dint of our conditioning, we’ve kind of forgotten that we have bodies, you know, that we are bodies. And so part of my task as a healer is to help people to more and more get in touch with that part of our reality and to know that the more that I’m in my somatic experience, the fuller, richer, and more complete my life is going to be. And also the more likely…

my healing will occur in a full way.

Sam Believ (19:15.553)

So it’s more of a holistic approach. So a lot of people are interested in somatic experiences, experiencing for trauma work specifically. If we could talk a little bit about that, how does one know that he has trauma and not just, let’s say something else, how can you, is there, you know, metrics where you can diagnose yourself if you are traumatized?

Joshua Sylvae (19:45.582)

Well, I never recommend people diagnosing themselves in anything. It’s pretty tough. And I think people get themselves into hot water a lot by trying to figure out what pathology I’m supposed to label myself with. If we’re thinking about mental health, psychiatry, the PTSD diagnosis,

you know, really requires an event. So there’s these different criteria to get the PTSD diagnosis. One of them is the A criterion, you know, the very first one you have to meet. And that’s that you have to have undergone an event in which, you know, real or threatened death was possible, where you were, there was a sexual violation, you know, it’s a very narrow range of very, very intense experiences.

that would qualify you for a PTSD diagnosis. I generally think that it’s more helpful to look at the symptoms. That’s what psychiatry does in terms of every other mental health disorder. The term that gets used in the field is the etiology. That’s how something comes to be. So the etiology is what…

precedes and gives rise to the symptoms. Nowhere in psychiatry do they think about the etiology of different disorders. They simply describe the symptoms. And so the psychiatrist meets with their patient and hears about their symptoms and then gives them a diagnosis based on those particular symptoms. And as we know, there’s now zillions of different diagnostic categories, to use a technical term.

And PTSD is the only one that has this A criterion, where it’s like, you have to have experienced this kind of event. It’s certainly useful, I think, to be able to tie one’s distress to particularly severe kinds of experiences that we’ve had. But I think trauma is best understood really as nervous system dysregulation.

Joshua Sylvae (22:10.542)

That’s where the embodied aspect of our nervous system, the part of our nervous system that communicates with the brain, but also tells our organs and glands what to do. When it gets disordered, it starts to send up alarm bells and the, you know, our thinking brain is like something’s wrong. What is it?

what’s wrong and we start ruminating and thinking compulsively about what’s the negative things in our life. It creates these emotional states of anxiety or depression that make it really difficult to function well. So to me, it can be useful to recognize that there’s been something in my past that I need to attend to.

like a particular event, but I wanna know more, you know, what’s actually happening, what’s showing up in somebody’s experience. People can get just as disordered from chronic stress as they can from particular traumatic events. And this is something that I don’t think is well understood in the field, you know, that our nervous system is liable, you know, to the same kinds of…

dysregulation, we could call it, in response to the accumulation of small stressors, challenges not successfully met, as it can from a single very severe event. So, you know, in terms of trauma, you know, our founder, again, Peter Levine, you know, he’s always said that,

trauma is in the nervous system, not in the event. You know, which is pointing towards how, boy, some people can go through really, really terrible stuff, incredibly heinous, you know, events, and be just fine afterwards. I know this from from personal experience. Other people might go through what seems from the outside like a relatively mild stressor, and completely

Joshua Sylvae (24:35.118)

decompensate afterwards, you know, completely fall apart. I know people who they got into a little fender bender. No one was hurt, you know, car wasn’t even damaged. But then they went home and started to feel more and more and more anxious. Then they would, you know, get into their car and start to stress out, you know, they found themselves not being able to go through that same intersection or parking lot again, where they’d had that fender bender.

Then the next thing they knew, they were feeling so unsafe behind the wheel that they couldn’t drive on the freeway. And then, you know, the next thing they’re like, I can’t drive at all. You know, I’m just taking public transit. And then, you know, maybe they’re not leaving the house and it can become, you know, this out of what seems like nothing. You know, a person’s entire life is turned upside down. So, you know, I think there’s no.

objective measure of event severity that can really tell us what trauma is or isn’t. I think we really want to see like what happened that really disorganized a person’s life and is there some way of renegotiating that event that can allow them to function in this fuller way, you know, in the way that we were designed.

Sam Believ (26:06.305)

If only they, after that fender bender, they just stop for a second and just shake it out and maybe they would have been fine.

Joshua Sylvae (26:14.158)

Well, yeah, I mean, so many people, you know, right afterwards, you know, and they go through stuff, they’ll find themselves trembling. And an interesting thing about us modern humans is that we don’t seem to like it when our bodies do stuff that we didn’t tell it to do. And so there’s this trembling that’s happening. And a person says to themselves, ooh, this is scary. I didn’t, I’m not making this happen. And that feels very eerie. And they try to shut it down.

Sam Believ (26:15.393)

Joshua Sylvae (26:43.918)

They try to get back to normal, to a state of control. And I really think that that dynamic is what lies behind what we call trauma.

And incidentally, for whatever it’s worth, I think that that’s what gets in the way a lot in terms of psychedelic work. The radical alteration in perception and feeling and thinking states that happens under the influence of psychedelics, I think can do a similar thing to people, where it’s like, wait, this isn’t normal. I’m not doing this. And they freak out. It’s hard for us to let go.

And yet, I think so much of our healing fundamentally depends on that letting go.

Sam Believ (27:36.225)

Yeah, definitely. I think with psychedelics, it kind of helps people to know that they’re in the ceremony and they allow themselves to do more than they normally would. They kind of give themselves permission to have that experience. What you describe with people with like a lot of small, relatively insignificant traumatic events, but large amounts of those, it’s kind of like a…

death by a thousand cuts. We meet a lot of people like this that that sort of seek healing but they at the same time they feel a bit of like an imposter syndrome. They don’t really like to say they have PTSD because you know it’s reserved for veterans and people like first responders. So…

Let’s say somebody finds out that they have trauma, they work with it through psychedelics therapy, somatic experiencing. How does one know that the trauma has been resolved?

Joshua Sylvae (28:41.582)

Yeah, so the thing I look for is the capacity to reflect on the experience and feel appropriate emotions of compassion for myself to remember how hard that thing was, but not to be thrust into a sense that it’s happening right now. You know, the…

Bessel van der Kolk, you know, one of the leading lights in traumatology, you know, he said something to the effect of, trauma is fundamentally a disorder in the ability to be in the here and now. So when I’ve experienced, you know, either trauma or maybe this chronic stress, the death by a thousand cuts, I am continually getting pulled back into the past. My, my attention gets hijacked and rather than being present,

to Sam over here on my screen and this nice conversation that we’re having that’s inspiring to me. I’m thinking about, I’m pulled back into some experience from the past. And I might even start to feel emotions that would be inappropriate for our interaction because my nervous system is now preparing for danger.

And so, you know, so much of it I think is about being able to land again in the here and now, you know, and to have what I call behavioral flexibility where I am present to what’s happening and my nervous system supports me to thrive by giving, putting me in the right state for this environment. You know, so I’m not in fight or flight. I’m not in freeze, shut down.

you know, I’m able to socially engage because my nervous system is supporting me to be in the right state for that. So as I’m working with clients and, you know, we do some trauma healing work, I will come back in a later session to inquire about how they’re holding that event now. And what I want to look for is that they’re, you know, they’re not totally cut off from it. Some, with some approaches to trauma.

Joshua Sylvae (31:02.734)

You’ll hear people say like, yeah, when I think about it, it’s just like, I don’t know, it’s almost like a dream or something. Like, I just don’t feel anything at all. I don’t know that that’s actually healing. I think that that might be compartmentalization and, you know, altering the neurological framework in one’s brain in a way that certainly, you know, is, is relieving to people cause they’re not getting triggered all the time.

but it may not actually be integrating the experience and facilitating that thing that we call post -traumatic growth, you know, where everything that we go through can improve our lives, can make us, you know, deeper beings. so, you know, I don’t necessarily want people who seem just totally cut off from the experience.

But I also don’t want when somebody thinks about something to be all of a sudden back in that state they were in at the time of that trauma. You know, it’s like we want people to have a sense of distance, like, that happened in the past. You know, it’s no longer determining my life in the present. So hopefully that makes sense as a way of kind of talking about what I look for in terms of trauma healed.

Sam Believ (32:34.145)

So trauma is trauma response and let’s say our anxiety or depression not being in now it’s something we can’t control right? It’s it happens in the autonomic nervous system. So what are what are the tools that we we have to communicate with with our autonomic nervous system? Any any sort of

Joshua Sylvae (32:50.702)

Mm -hmm.

Sam Believ (33:05.057)

tips or tricks for somebody who let’s say is listening to this podcast now and they feel anxious or depressed.

Joshua Sylvae (33:11.726)

Mm hmm. Well, certainly the one thing that I often recommend in the beginning is what I described earlier is orientation. So if someone is out there listening and wants to take a moment, you know, looking up from whatever it is that might have captured one’s attention and begin to get curious about the external environment, maybe just for a moment.

Let your eyes go where they want to go. You know, if you’re driving, keep your eyes on the road. But maybe also notice a little bit, you know, things that you might not have been aware of. Colors, shapes. Noticing the room that you’re in. Your environment.

and just really starting to get curious about what’s out there.

A lot of people as they do this, they’ll notice that their body downshifts in a way. There’s a spontaneous movement out of arousal and into a kind of settling. There might be a deeper, more spontaneous breath or some other kind of signal that lets us know like, okay, we’re moving into some deactivation now. That is something that I have heard from, you know, not a small number of clients.

can really change a person’s life. It’s more regularly taking time to be aware of the environment. We’ve known since the 50s actually, Pavlov and all the experiments that were going on there, people had also studied the orienting reflex. That’s where we become aware of something new in our environment.

Joshua Sylvae (35:08.494)

and something novel and our gaze spontaneously goes to it. Like if you’ve ever had the experience of sitting in a cafe and the door opens, a new customer comes in, you can’t help but look up from your conversation or the document you’re working on on your laptop or whatever it is to see, okay, who’s that? And you know, in a big city, it’s very unlikely that you’re gonna know who it is. Like you don’t actually need to be engaging in this.

looking, but our bodies can’t help it. It’s like we want to keep tabs on what’s going on. We want to know. So, you know, they looked at that orienting reflex and they found that as people did it, their heart rate went down. It’s almost as if our organism is designed in a way where when we take time to move our eyes, let our head and neck move, swivel,

our body says, okay, I’m a little bit safer now. And of course, you know, this makes good sense evolutionarily that, you know, as an animal that, you know, in the not so distant past, we were not just the, you know, top predator as we are now in our environments, we were also prey. You know, there was a lot of, there was, there was danger in our environment.

before civilization. And it makes sense that our nervous system will be set up in a way where as I orient to the external environment, I feel safer and thus calmer. So that’s a trick for sure. Take some time, notice your environment. Another thing that I strongly recommend to people, and this was also mentioned earlier in how I might work with a client.

Take time to register and enjoy positive experiences. A lot of people get really focused on trying to figure out, you know, what’s wrong, trying to make sure that I know all the possible pitfalls that are, you know, out there. And, you know, it turns into its own self -reinforcing loop.

Joshua Sylvae (37:37.934)

of dysfunction. So, you know, I say, it’s just so important to take in the good, you know, to really devote ourselves to enjoying those moments of our lives where there is that sense of pleasure, comfort, or ease. So I strongly suggest this to people, not to try to, you know,

Not because feeling pleasant stuff is better, but just because it allows us to not get stuck in the negative side. As I’m sure you’ve seen in your journey work, we need both. We need both the encounter with our own pain and access to resources. The group.

the spirit of the medicine, the sense of my own connection with nature. All of those things are so crucial, I think, to the healing process that happens down there. I mean, I’m not there, so I don’t know for sure, but it’s, I think, a fair guess. And so, it becomes important, I think,

that we all remind ourselves and each other how important it is to be in contact with what feels good. That needs to be a part of our lives and it needs to be a part of our healing process as well. That’s the trap of anxiety. It’s like, I’m anxious, so I try to figure out what’s wrong. That makes me more anxious, makes me wanna figure out what’s wrong more. That makes me more anxious. And it’s a vicious circle.

as they say.

Sam Believ (39:38.689)

Thank you, Joshua. That’s great information. I can already feel the, how our listeners are calming down and releasing a bit of their trauma because you have a very calm and soothing voice, perfect for guided meditations. So yeah, if you’re, if you’re driving someone that might be falling asleep, it’s very, it’s very, yeah. Yeah. So.

Joshua Sylvae (39:56.398)

Nice.

Don’t do it. Let’s tell them a joke or something to wake them up.

Sam Believ (40:07.937)

You mentioned the encountering pain. I think it’s very important. Probably in somatic experience, in somatic experiencing as much as in the work we do with the OSCAMP. A lot of people really want to have pleasant experience and they want to see beautiful visions. But in reality, most of the work is done when you touch those painful memories and negative feelings and then you let go of them.

Joshua Sylvae (40:38.126)

Mm.

Sam Believ (40:38.369)

You also mentioned breath for a second because when I think about autonomic nervous system I automatically think about breath. I think it’s one of the easiest things for us to control and be able to calm down ourselves. Do you recommend in your work, do you use any breath work practices?

Joshua Sylvae (40:59.598)

I really like to make sure that people recognize breath as part of that calming response. I’m a little leery of doing too much breath control, because I can see for a lot of people how that leads into these patterns of inhibiting their nervous system that in the long run aren’t as helpful.

In the short term, like if somebody comes in and they’re, you know, they’re experiencing panic attacks, their lives are falling apart because, you know, there’s, they’re stuck in this fight or flight response. Breath practices can be really useful for, for grounding. But one of, one of the things about SE that’s really unique is that we’re, we’re trying to facilitate this, this bottom up process and, you know, you used the term earlier. I think it’s so important involuntary.

body processes. Really getting people accustomed to and comfortable with, you know, the body doing stuff that we’re not telling it to do. And, yeah, my little bit of concern with, you know, how popular and prevalent breath practice is becoming, you know, is that it represents this, this, you know, ability to kind of temporarily hijack

the autonomic nervous system and shift one variable within that system’s function. And that really can, for some people, not for everybody, really can lead to a quick shift into more parasympathetic or more calming in that system. But it doesn’t fix the dysregulation. So a person who uses breath to try to downregulate,

autonomic nervous system function can get relief temporarily, but then they’re just going to get stressed again, then they’re just going to get shut down again. And so, you know, I think it’s important that we’re not just putting a bandaid on that, which, you know, which you might need the bandaid in the short term so that the tissue can really heal. But, you know, you got to get in there and kind of work with what’s underlying that.

Joshua Sylvae (43:25.262)

I will say in psychedelic work, where sometimes things can come up so big, so fast, knowing how to facilitate breath practices that are grounding and supportive, it can make all the difference.

Sam Believ (43:45.729)

Yeah, that’s, that makes a lot of sense because you only hear good things about breath work and never hear the other side. It’s good to also understand that not to rely on it entirely and do the introspection to see what’s causing the anxiety or, you know, panic, as you say. One last thing I want to ask you, you mentioned that we are living in a disembodied culture.

Joshua Sylvae (44:07.246)

Mm -hmm.

Sam Believ (44:16.129)

Can you talk a little bit about that and say, tell us, you know, what maybe can we do to be more embodied?

Joshua Sylvae (44:25.934)

For sure. And I’ll just name that in there is an assumption, a sort of cultural assumption. I’m up here in the States and certainly I think fair to say that folks are mostly disembodied in this culture. I don’t know that that’s true in other parts of the world. I know in…

You know, got a couple of friends from Columbia and you know, they’ll report that, you know, people are freer in their movements. You know, there can be more dance that happens, more, you know, physical touching between people might be more common. So I think all of those things can help us to be in our bodies more. I certainly am not trying to say that.

you know, every culture is the same or only talk about, you know, one culture. But certainly, you know, where I live, I think there’s a lot of people walking around experiencing themselves as, you know, a head that is, you know, plopped onto this thing that they’re mostly unaware of and just expect to do whatever they tell it to do. I…

I, my life, you know, was really transformed by starting to pay more attention to my body. And, you know, it started, you know, with different, different practices I was doing connecting to nature. and then of course, you know, really, somatic experiencing was, was a big part of that in sessions. I also have been involved in different communities where we did somatic meditation practices.

you know, where you take the body as your focus of meditation. You know, I think all of that is supportive for engaging in a practice of self -referencing in that way. So, you know, if my conditioning, you know, what I experience, like, you know, I’ll do this thing. I’ve now, you know, I do a lot of teaching, you know, sort of traveling around and…

Joshua Sylvae (46:52.398)

I’ve now asked this question of probably, you know, easily thousands of people at this point all over the world. Did you, when you were a child, have a caregiver who regularly asked you what you were noticing in your body?

And as I pose this question to all these thousands of people, I’ve seen like one or two hands go up over the years. You know, it’s, we just, we don’t get the training, you know, we don’t get the reinforcement that this is relevant. And so, you know, it’s, I think a skill that needs to be built in life, you know, it’s…

It’s an area where I really try to apply myself to this. And I do that because I find that when I do, it feels better.

You know, it’s something that I like and so I pursue it. And so, you know, it could be as simple as just, you know, putting a little alarm on my phone or computer that dings, you know, every so often. And when I hear that ding, I’m like, right, okay. And I might have completely lost track of, you know, the fact that, you know, I have this…

a wholesating, kind of slightly magical seeming organism, you know, that’s humming away in the background, you know, keeping me alive and communicating to me all of these feelings of aliveness. And, you know, in that moment, I just take time and notice. I find that it can be really helpful. You know, I mentioned taking in the good before.

Joshua Sylvae (48:53.114)

And if I can, as part of that, notice how that pleasant experience is showing up in my body, you know, in the, as we would say, NSE, in the sensation channel, I think that’s important. So noticing, especially at first, you know, for trauma survivors, noticing good feelings in the body. And, you know, it’s…

A lot of my clients, their body has been a house of pain. You know, it’s where they’ve been violated. It’s where they might have a chronic pain syndrome or, you know, they have a functional disorder with their gastrointestinal system. And so, attending to their bodies is fraught for them. So, you know, I get really excited about people being able to access the body as a source of pleasure.

or ease.

Joshua Sylvae (49:55.982)

And then, you know, noticing like right now I was, as I was talking, I suddenly became aware that I am running my hand slowly over my knee. And it’s like this little self -soothing thing. And like, we’re doing this kind of stuff all the time, you know, as a teacher, I get to like, just talk a lot and watch people. And I’m just like watching bodies all the time, engaging in these little soothing behaviors, you know, whether it’s like.

rubbing my earlobe or twirling my hair, rubbing the top of my head, stroking my chin, rubbing hands on legs, putting my hands together. There’s all of these different things that we’re, again, normally totally unconscious of that I think are the body giving us this message. They’re there, everything’s fine.

You can just relax. And so often as I’m sitting with clients and they’re starting to work through stuff, as their system gets stressed, their body will start to soothe itself. And it can be very helpful to become more aware of those things and to recognize that it feels good in our bodies in some way when we do that.

Sam Believ (51:20.577)

Yeah, that’s great to be observant of that. So regarding the question that you said, if somebody asks you growing up, I think I need to start asking my kids that. Definitely gonna introduce this practice. Would be interesting to see how they grow up more conscious about what’s happening in their body. So this is a great advice. I really appreciate it. And for you guys that been… Sorry, Karen.

Joshua Sylvae (51:41.454)

Nice.

Yeah, they may. sorry, I guess there’s a little lag. I was just going to say they may or may not take you up on it. My kids, when I ask them like, hey, how does that feel in your body? They’re like, Dad, quit trying to be my therapist. You know, they just get annoyed.

Sam Believ (52:02.113)

Yeah, well, I’ll try. I’ll try anyway. I’ll try anyway. And for those of you who are listening, go be more embodied. Go do some dancing. Go hug somebody. Maybe sing a song. Do some yoga, whatever it takes. Be more embodied, guys. Joshua, thank you so much for this episode. I think it was very informative and very entertaining and also very calming.

Joshua Sylvae (52:03.822)

May or may not work.

Yeah, good. Good.

Joshua Sylvae (52:19.086)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (52:32.289)

Joshua, where can people find more about you and your work?

Joshua Sylvae (52:37.39)

I have a website. It is Sylve, my last name, which is spelled S -Y -L -V -A -E, sylve .net. If you want to learn more about somatic experiencing and the SE professional training, you can at traumahealing .org. And then there’s Peter Levine’s Ergose Institute, which is at somaticexperiencing .com.

Sam Believ (53:09.921)

Thank you, Joshua. I’ll make sure to include those links in the podcast description. Once again, it was a very great episode and thank you for coming on.

Joshua Sylvae (53:18.542)

Yeah, thanks so much for having me. It was fun talking.

In this episode of AyahuascaPodcast.com host Sam Believ has a conversation with Ian McCall, former UFC champion turned psychedelic activist.

We touch upon subjects of TBI and Psychedelics, Ian’s research on TBI and Ayahuasca, his journey after UFC retirement, overcoming addiction and suicidal ideation.

Find more about Ian at

https://themccallmethod.com

His charity and research project

https://athletesjourneyhome.com/sponsors/

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:02)

guys and ⁓ okay ⁓ you got to stop moving stuff because sounds very loud I’ll just start again ⁓ hi guys ⁓ cool ⁓ hi guys and welcome to ayahuasca podcast as always with you the whole assembly of our guest today’s Ian McCall Ian is a mixed martial arts fighter he’s a contender for UFC Championship belt he is now

Sam Believ (00:30)

a psychedelic researcher and consultant and he is the world’s first psychedelic coach for high level sports ⁓ people. So Ian, welcome to the show.

ian mccall (00:42)

Thank you for having me. Thank you. Thank you. ⁓ Yeah, I’m no longer that first coach. I mean, I guess I’m still the first guy, but I shared that title with my friend, Adam Bramledge. ⁓ We both started working with athletes from different sides of sports, different perspectives ⁓ a while back.

ian mccall (01:04)

And I stuck my flag in the ground and I said, I’m the first one. And he was like, I’m the first one. And now there’s a bunch of us, you know, there, there is, I’m building a team of athletes to coach other athletes, ⁓ through this process, you know, we’re, we’ve got, ⁓ you know, mentorship programs and I have my nonprofit that we are.

ian mccall (01:25)

not only bringing athletes through the scientific study that we’re trying to create, it’s the first study of its kind ever using athletes as the case study using ayahuasca to see the effects on traumatic brain injury. And we’re testing everything from genetics to the gut, biome, electricity, everything we can. All these athletes have a lot of brain scans already. So we’re going pretty deep with the testing, bringing the athletes through the healing process.

ian mccall (01:55)

And ⁓ there’s a few options here. ⁓ Athletes, most of them are here because they’re damaged and they want to retire. They want to move on with life and they don’t have any direction. Or maybe they do, but it needs to be galvanized and they need to heal the brain damage that they’ve incurred on their path to greatness. Then there’s also people like Giorgio Gomez, my pro surfer or…

ian mccall (02:23)

Mark the Shark Erwin, who is my very local boxing world champion. I not only won a world title as a fighter, but now I’ve won a world title as a coach. And using psychedelics has been a big part of that. We train on psychedelics, we use large doses of psychedelics, we use, I mean, he won a world title on seven and a half grams of mushrooms.

ian mccall (02:49)

And I was on five in this corner, which is for most people, that’s an absurd amount of mushrooms to be on ⁓ while doing anything outside of laying on a mat crying your eyes out. But ⁓ we wanted to test it and I don’t fight anymore. I’m not the athlete. So he’s my little space monkey that I’m shooting into orbit. And ⁓ you know,

ian mccall (03:14)

I always like to say that good science is irresponsible science. You know, that that’s the way you push the boundaries of our understanding as humans of what we’re trying to accomplish. And I am shockingly not a doctor, not a scientist. I’m just a guy that learns some stuff. ⁓ But being obsessive, ⁓ world champion, you have these mechanisms in your brain that push you to do things more than most. And I got obsessed, especially with my own personal

ian mccall (03:44)

healing. I was like, wow, this is fucking incredible. I was so damaged, I was able to save myself, so I had to tell everybody. I had to research this. I had to figure out a scientific method. I had to build my own method, the McCall method, which the McCall method is turned into something else, but it’s more of a coaching platform now.

ian mccall (04:09)

But using these medicines, I ⁓ healed myself, I’ve helped heal others, but I also saw the performance benefits ⁓ of them, not just for life, but for sports, selfishly. Selfishly, I wanna see people achieve greatness, like I was able to. I lost it all, yes, very dramatically. ⁓ But… ⁓

ian mccall (04:32)

You know, to help them not just be good, but be great. To have a chance to be great. To open up their minds and their bodies to be able to just put on the greatest performances ever because ⁓ that’s our gift to you guys. Is we put our lives ⁓ on the line.

ian mccall (04:50)

Every time we step on the field, in the cage, in a race car, we surf a big wave. We are doing that, yes, for greatness, yes, for money. You know, the accolades, your name is etched in time forever. But we’re doing it because you guys give us the opportunity to do so. Fans, we give the fans hope of life. Most of you guys’ lives are boring, I guess. I don’t know, I’m not a normal –

ian mccall (05:20)

like to live like a normal person. But whatever it is that drives you guys to ⁓ want to celebrate us for riding a 50 -foot wave or beating the shit out of another person in the cage, it’s weird.

ian mccall (05:39)

But sports, like I said, they give people hope and athletes are going to be the next generation or the next version of people that are gonna push healing to the next level. See, first we had our athletes. Pearl Carts Project is very dear to me. They ⁓ saved my life. I’m going back down to the jungles with them in March. No, sorry, in March.

ian mccall (06:05)

in August ⁓ and I modeled my entire non -profit which is Athlete’s Journey Home. I should probably be wearing an Athlete’s Journey Home shirt but whatever. Yeah, we’ll get there. And where was I going? Sorry.

Sam Believ (06:15)

We’ll talk about it later. We’ll definitely mention it.

Sam Believ (06:24)

You went all over the place, you touched so many topics that we’re going to go into in detail. First of all, it’s great because you’re going to be an easy interview. I don’t even need to ask you questions, you just tell stories, which is great. But I want to start first by saying you look great, Ian. You look chill, you look relaxed, you look healthy. So whatever it is you’re doing, you’re doing it right. I watched some UFC, I think I’ve seen your…

Sam Believ (06:53)

your persona before and you look like you’re younger and it’s amazing. I want to tell a little story to listeners. Maybe two months ago or so I was drinking ayahuasca at our retreat right here where we live. And for some reason I had this thought that ⁓ Conor McGregor and Khabib Nurmagomedov should come to my retreat, drink ayahuasca and like heal their relationship. Like that’s the most bizarre thing ever.

Sam Believ (07:23)

just bizarre ayahuasca thought. And I just like, you know, whatever, right? It’s just, it’s a funny story to tell in the word circle. And then ⁓ surprisingly, I saw you and you were talking about TBI and I both had in my list to people to interview. I had the person, I wanted to interview somebody who was a martial artist. And I also wanted to interview somebody who works with TBI ⁓ and you click both of those boxes. And now we’re interviewing people, right? So it’s interesting how.

Sam Believ (07:53)

when you want something or it shows you something then it becomes a reality. ⁓ Before we talk about ⁓ your project, first how does one go from being a mixed martial artist, championship contender, like a very high level elite fighter ⁓ to ⁓ psychedelics and to helping others? What was that transition for you? Tell us about that.

ian mccall (07:57)

universe provide.

ian mccall (08:24)

in plant medicine at a very young age. Too young. I was smoking cannabis by the time I was eight years old. I took LSD for the first time when I was 12. Mushrooms were as a teenager, MDMA as a teenager. It’s just kind of ⁓ psychedelics have been reserved for the wealthy white kids in America. For…

ian mccall (08:51)

you know, for a long time. That’s from my dad’s generation from the 70s until now. And ⁓ my dad, rewind, he smuggled cannabis around the world ⁓ in the 70s, just to see the world, not really for money, but he was able to travel the world and make money and do this. So he also always told me stories about…

ian mccall (09:15)

about how important they were, how healing they were. So that always sat in the back of my mind. My brother has been extracting DMT for over 15 years. He’s the chemist of the family. ⁓ I was ⁓ in a really bad place when I retired. I wanted to kill myself. You know, I’ve…

ian mccall (09:41)

been really close to it more than once. Had a loaded gun in my mouth on more than one occasion.

ian mccall (09:49)

And ⁓ I knew bodies could heal. I already knew that because previously my daughter got very, very sick when I was in the UFC. She got juvenile rheumatoid arthritis. And ⁓ as a family, as a family unit,

ian mccall (10:06)

we healed her with first this diet and exercise. Those are the first two things. You got physical therapy and I was taking her to cryotherapy and I was taking her to sound baths and doing, playing the right music and doing all these sort of things. But I started to give her a high dose Rick Simpson oil, which is cannabis oil. And ⁓ getting high with a toddler is kind of funny, but kind of not, you know, but through the process.

ian mccall (10:34)

I educated myself. I always wanted to be a scientist as a kid. I love information. I was selfishly learning things about human performance the whole time I was fighting because I wanted to be the best fighter in the world. And that’s why I achieved what I did. But…

ian mccall (10:53)

When my daughter got sick, it was a whole new ballgame. I had to go and learn about the inflammatory system on multiple levels. Obviously, the cannabinoid system was the first.

ian mccall (11:05)

Then I started to look in the things, you know, like the gut biome and certain interactions with certain foods and her body and my body and so on. So I had a couple of good case studies. I was always studying myself. I was studying her and I was studying my best friend who passed away. You know, I was just trying to transform it. Him and I both became world champions together and we both at one point were raising my daughter together. My ex -wife and I were not together and I lived with him and he helped me, you know, he was, he was the uncle.

ian mccall (11:35)

So ⁓ fast forward to me being retired, being very damaged, very addicted, heroin, fentanyl, anything really to get me high, women. I was ⁓ a playboy my whole life, and I had a lot of trauma, a lot of mother…

ian mccall (11:54)

I had to deal with. But first I had to deal with my brain damage. And I was friends with Joe Rogan back then. I was on his show a few times. I just got a bunch of signs from all over the place of how important these mushrooms were gonna be for me. So one day my brother serves me DMT on my couch ⁓ and it shows me, look, it’s time to retire. It’s time to grow up and get past this. Look at how bad you’re doing. Like you said, I look younger now.

ian mccall (12:24)

I do because I’ve aged in reverse over the last six years since I retired and That’s with stem cells and peptides and a bunch of stuff, but ayahuasca has been a big part of that mushrooms have been a big part of that So I sat down and I started to read just like when you know Joe and I would would talk about

ian mccall (12:46)

about information about my daughter’s autoimmune disease, I looked at brain damage ⁓ and I looked at the theoretical science of psychedelics of mushrooms, of epigenetic neurogenesis, ⁓ neuroplasticity, all these sort of things. And I applied it to myself. I already understood how the body works. I already healed a miniature version of myself. So I was like, this, this, let’s hope this works. And it did.

ian mccall (13:16)

You know, it took me a while. Psychedelics gave me the thought to get off drugs. Peptides are what really got ⁓ my body.

ian mccall (13:33)

So anybody out there who’s listening, if you’re having a hard time coming off of something like heroin or fentanyl, ⁓ use peptides. Look into peptides for detoxing. Don’t use your Western medicine. The entire Western medicine model has failed me, it’s failed you, it’s failed everybody. So there’s now a lot better routes to take to heal yourself on every level, not just physical but spiritual. So I started to go down the path and ⁓ I…

ian mccall (14:02)

was constantly microdosing something, you know, all the time. Just because I figured, I’m sorry, Fatiman, you know, Dr. Fatiman’s a friend of mine, but his protocol is way too small, or Paul’s stamina, so it’s like one day on, two days off, like all this sort of stuff. I needed an extended period of time to heal my brain. So I understood that, I was doing five days on, two days off, which just seemed to become kind of more normal for people. ⁓ But.

ian mccall (14:31)

started to go down the path, started to meet people like Dr. Fadiman. At the time, I was dating a scientist, a UCLA professor and a scientist and ⁓ an amazing teacher of mine. She’s taught me more than any other person in this world outside of my own daughter.

ian mccall (14:47)

And I had a lot of people, Matthew Johnson from Johns Hopkins, Melissa Dawn from Dawn Scientific. They would see me ⁓ getting more shine from them than them, because they’re scientists, they’re doctors, but nobody wants to listen to them because ⁓ they’ve lied to us a bunch, not them specifically, but that whole model of people has lied to us and hurt us and just poisoned us.

ian mccall (15:16)

So I was able to kind of jump ahead of them and I’ve been in Forbes, I’ve been in HBO, I’ve been in all these accomplishments. The cover of LA Weekly, it said, fight Shaman. The one word I said don’t use with my name was Shaman and they used it of course because it’s media and whatever. It sells exactly. I was annoyed at first but it doesn’t matter, I got the word out. And.

Sam Believ (15:32)

because it sells.

ian mccall (15:41)

As I’m achieving all these things, these scientists would be like, hey, look, like, who are you?

ian mccall (15:47)

What are your intentions? And every person pulled me aside and asked me the right questions. And I just recited all their work. I just said, well, you did this and you did that. I know this, you know that, and this person did that, and they did this. ⁓ And they were just like, whoa, whoa, whoa, okay, yeah, we get it. You know, a lot of stuff. If you’re gonna speak for us, this is how you need to talk. This is what you need to say. This is how you need to make it sound. Because you’re a little off here, you’re a little off there. And everyone just wanted me to just,

ian mccall (16:17)

give the right information, we call it the pollination effect. Whereas the Queen Bee researcher now, I’m the Queen Bee researcher, I’m giving this information to my athletes ⁓ and my athletes are going to go out there and they’re going to use their blue check marks on social media to pollinate all the people that are listening to what they have to say because ⁓ people resonate with sports, they have hope in sports and every athlete that I know…

ian mccall (16:46)

whether they’ve won a world title or not, they have some kid or some person that is like, you changed my life, you saved my life because I watched you do what you did. And that’s a huge impact. I mean, that’s just one person is a big impact. That’s enough. But the fact that these men and women can help me really affect.

ian mccall (17:08)

millions of people, if not more. We start small, we start with their groups, their lane, stay in your lane. You’re a surfer, you preach to surfers, fighters preach to fighters and race car drivers and so on. Obviously, once these athletes go through the process, they get healed. We have analytics, we have data for their brains, which I’m not worried about the data. Data equates to ones and zeros and money and it’s not what I’m doing.

ian mccall (17:38)

but it’s a necessity for donations and whatnot. I’m more interested in the stories that these athletes have to say, you know, because ⁓ trauma only comes in a few different flavors and we all have at least one of them. So…

ian mccall (18:00)

Once we peel back the layers of the brain damage and we’re able to access these people’s real ⁓ bullshit, their deep, deep, deep seated traumas, what are the things that drove you to become the best in the world ⁓ at that chosen sport? Number one, you’re off, you’re crazy, you’re all these things that aren’t normal. You know?

ian mccall (18:25)

But also you on your path to greatness, you lost or you pushed aside all these other life things. How long it took me to figure out how to do my taxes, how long it takes me to do most normal things that people do. I’m still having trouble.

ian mccall (18:43)

I haven’t retired for six years. I’ve been working on myself this whole time. So if I can expedite the process, create an ecosystem for them to heal and then give them work after, give them a job, because most athletes have nothing after sports. And most athletes don’t have money. Most athletes are broke. People are like, you guys are all rich. I’m like, ⁓ no. Most people are broken and broke. You know, they, they…

ian mccall (19:12)

They gave up everything for this shot at greatness and whether they achieved it or not, they lost a lot in the process. And I’m just trying to, as the name says, I’m trying to bring them home. Athletes driven home, bring them home to be that high achieving person. But now in a life of service, you’re going to give your life to service ⁓ and give back to your community. And that doesn’t mean you’re a nun or you’re a priest or if that’s where you want to go, go for it. But I’m saying you’re a life.

ian mccall (19:42)

of service to your community, which is the sport you help build. And the people around you, your family, like I work with a lot of people. It’s not just athletes. I had a client, actually I had a client die yesterday for the first time of cancer, which is rough, but I work with cancer patients and ALS patients and all these ⁓ other variables. A lot of autistic people ⁓ being told I’m on the spectrum as well. I was also a big part of.

ian mccall (20:10)

what I do. So yeah, we’re headed in the right direction right now. We’re just trying to raise the money.

Sam Believ (20:17)

I ⁓ think that understanding that athletes are also, they’re hurt but they’re also very driven and obviously to become an athlete and to become a top performer it means you’re an extra capable individual so if you would…

Sam Believ (20:34)

put them on their own healing journey with psychedelics and with spirituality and then maybe retrain them as facilitators or coaches. It’s a very strong force of nature. Those are very powerful people if you direct this in the right direction. I want to…

Sam Believ (20:50)

mention you said about your daughter and the work with cannabis in the western world it would be something like they would say you know you’re just completely crazy you’re a lunatic like what do you mean ⁓ drugs and kids but in the jungle their kids they take ayahuasca and they go and they play football and they’re way more sane than most western kids so we really need to I don’t say like just give drugs to kids but I’m saying we really need to rethink

Sam Believ (21:18)

how it is and work with psychedelics both for depressed children or depressed mothers or mothers that are nursing. I had an episode on that as well. A lot of people don’t know about me. You know, I run the ayahuasca retreat and this podcast but…

Sam Believ (21:39)

When I was a teenager, I did boxing for eight years. I rarely competed, but ⁓ it was just something. I come from Eastern Europe originally and as a boy growing up in Eastern Europe, you’re expected to do some kind of sports. So, and the reason I stopped doing boxing is because I had a TBI as well. So I fell ⁓ and then I kept doing boxing. So my brain was always.

Sam Believ (22:08)

shaken there was always ⁓ Like every time after the workout I would come out and my head would hurt so That’s why I have a big interest in TBI not only for people but also for myself When I drink ayahuasca and my I haven’t had headaches for a long time now I think I as a side effect because I came to ayahuasca for depression But as a side effect it healed my my headaches as well

Sam Believ (22:35)

Although they subsided as I stopped training but a lot of people don’t understand that every hit you take and even every hit you give Goes back to your brain and shakes it a little bit or that’s with martial arts every fall every movement so athletes they’re all very They’re in pain not just from the brain, but also Like everyone who does any sports as a sports. It’s a very painful ⁓ painful endeavor. So

Sam Believ (23:04)

Let’s talk a little bit about TBI. ⁓ Explain the science to us because I know you’re very good at explaining it. ⁓ The processes that happen in your brain on psychedelics and why it’s helpful for TBI. And tell us your own story with the TBI. How did it progress and how do you feel now?

ian mccall (23:27)

TBI, mine was pretty aggressive because I had a major TBI in high school. I put myself in the hospital for a couple days, snowboarding, hit my face really, really hard. And that I know made my shelf life as a fighter shorter, a lot shorter. But I was also getting punched in the head since I was four years old. I was a martial arts prodigy. You know, so.

ian mccall (23:56)

It was just a matter of time until I couldn’t take it anymore. I was fighting constantly as a kid, constantly getting hit with things. I’ve been hit with bottles. I’ve had ⁓ a lot of ⁓ blows to the head.

ian mccall (24:14)

like an uncountable number of things that happened. And then there was all the addictions, you know, that were attached to all the damage with drugs that caused my receptors and whatnot. This is all damage. This is all brain damage. Now, when you ⁓ take any psychedelic, you have neuroplasticity happen. You have the process of epigenetic neurogenesis ⁓ going on in your body. That’s the production of…

ian mccall (24:44)

Chemicals like brain derived the trophic factor Glutamate these things actually heal the brain. We were told as kids Once you have dead brain cells, you’re never gonna heal them again. They’re dead forever. That’s not true. We can heal the brain ⁓ We can we can make ourselves feel a lot better and We

ian mccall (25:10)

With a big dose, you’re gonna have some great effects, of course, but microdose is where ⁓ I feel like ⁓ the greater healing actually happens on a physical level because you have, you know, you have miracle row in your brain for one day in a big dose or you have it in say a big dose and then a bunch of small doses. Obviously that’s gonna lead the brain to heal itself a little better. You also have the changes in diet.

ian mccall (25:39)

Yeah, people you know everyone who gets into psychedelics looks at other tools like breath work and meditation all these things TBI is not a it’s not a ⁓ Like a one tool sort of thing ⁓ If you’re going to attack your TBI you need to do with multiple multiple tools That’s my best suggestion diet and exercise is always first ⁓ Because not everybody wants to take psychedelics

ian mccall (26:07)

But if you want to speed up the process of your healing psychedelics are the greatest key you can use ⁓ They’re also the cheapest you can go outside and forage for wild mushrooms ⁓ And I talked to people all over the world who are taking this I I was looking to go to Ukraine recently And teach some seminars because some people out there are taking mushrooms and growing mushrooms, you know, it’s like I would love to go to Ukraine right now I don’t care about the war

ian mccall (26:35)

I’m not, you know, like I’ll go, I just, it’s a cool story. And if I can help people, then they can help people. And ⁓ you ⁓ have to do research on your own body. If you’re gonna try to heal yourself, I tell people, go, don’t just listen to us, but go do some research. Go read the papers. Cause again, I’m just a guy. Most people need to hear stuff from like actual white papers and whatnot. And we’re treating that as we speak, but it’s already out there.

ian mccall (27:04)

The reason why I’m doing what I’m doing is because it’s already happened. We already have proof ⁓ that this stuff works. So as the inflammation drops in your brain, your brain can actually heal, your body can actually heal. And most people don’t know that you have serotonin receptors all over your skin too. You have serotonin receptors ⁓ all over most of your body. So when…

ian mccall (27:28)

Those mechanisms are triggered, the 5 -HT2A receptor pathways triggered from psilocybin or psilocin. Psilocybin goes into your body, goes to psilocin. We’ll just use mushrooms for instance. That’s a serotonin analog. So it acts and excites the same receptors.

ian mccall (27:50)

When that happens, you also trigger the BDNF receptor. I can’t think of what that’s called right now. But the BDNF receptor is something that we just heard about like a year ago. That’s actually affected like 5 ,000 times more than the serotonin receptor. Now what all this means is your brain is healing. Your brain’s creating the right drugs to heal your brain. You have four parts of your brain, two hemispheres. Usually those parts all speak to each other.

ian mccall (28:20)

on their own. They don’t speak in conjunction with each other. But now they’re fluently speaking, you’re accessing memories, thought patterns, speech patterns, all these things that start to happen. Your shoulders drop, your smile goes up, and you have an overwhelming sense of just well -being. You know, your agoraphobia or your anxiety, depression, all these things start to start to loosen at least a little bit. Maybe for ⁓ a few hours of the day they’re gone, and you’re like,

ian mccall (28:50)

Okay, I feel this this is working. This is happening. How do I how do I proceed? So you just keep taking and and you can slowly start to become your own citizen scientist ⁓ I tell people if you can buy like an ounce of mushrooms ⁓ and ⁓ Start to measure it out. Don’t just take stuff because that’s gonna work, but it’s not a process You’re just you’re just hoping you don’t get too high Weigh it out and figure out how you like to ingest it whether that’s juice or whether that’s coffee

ian mccall (29:20)

or that’s in capsule form, whatever it is. And you can have this sustained relief ⁓ of ⁓ life because your body and your brain are ready to heal.

ian mccall (29:35)

Then I recommend big doses. If you haven’t done a big dose before this, you’ll want to eventually. And it’s scary, you should be afraid. It is, it’s not, this isn’t fun. This is terrifying for most people. For me, I’ve done 20 grams in the jungle with a Mazatec Shaman and I was scared shitless. You ⁓ get in there and you do 20 years, a lifetime’s worth of therapy in six hours.

ian mccall (30:05)

So.

ian mccall (30:06)

That’s the next thing. Once you break the brain damage, you start to peel those layers off, then you access the body, you access the soul, you access the traumas, and you can really heal. Because for me, I healed my traumatic brain injury, but eventually I realized I was spiritually broken. That was the next piece ⁓ of what I had to get into. That’s been a much more exhaustive search for me than had just taken something, just taken something to feel better. That was simple.

ian mccall (30:36)

I was really really easy eating right I’ve eaten right my whole life worked out I worked out all the time Almost every day I go in the sauna cold point everyone’s all about cold and hot therapy ⁓ that stuff I’ve been doing since high school Just because I had to because of wrestling. There’s not a bragging. It’s just I didn’t know science up until you guys knew it, too I mean maybe a little earlier because that’s what I do is I research these things and I have friends that do the research But ⁓ you know, I just I

ian mccall (31:05)

I keep harping on tools. You gotta get a lot of stuff done. You gotta make this a lifestyle choice because if you go back to being a toxic person, it’s gonna be a lot harder to heal if your vibration isn’t right. Like this works on so many levels and if you really wanna get to the heart of it, you really wanna feel better.

ian mccall (31:25)

You have to change the talk, you know, and neuro linguistics programming and so on. There’s so many things you have to fix through the process because when you’re broken and your brain damaged, you’re depressed. You have the anxiety. Everyone’s against you. You, you, you, your thoughts, you know, jumbled up and confused. So you have to reprogram ⁓ your entire self. There’s, there’s a lot of work to be done within this. ⁓ and that’s why I’m, you know,

ian mccall (31:55)

why I’m doing what I’m doing. I’m trying to build a structure for it so people don’t have to go search for it themselves. They just come home and I welcome them and we take care of them.

Sam Believ (32:07)

So you’re not only working on yourself, obviously getting yourself better and then helping others by coaching them. Now you’re doing this project that’s called Athletes Journey Home, where you organize 10 or 12 athletes to go to the Amazon. So you collect the funds with your charity to go to the Amazon where they drink ayahuasca and you…

Sam Believ (32:34)

make the study on them to observe their results. Can you talk to us about that? Has it already been done and it’s like a second round now or is it still the first one? What are the results so far and why Ayahuasca?

ian mccall (32:59)

universe provides.

ian mccall (33:03)

I did a bunch of work within the mushroom space ⁓ with the UFC. I got the UFC to agree to a study in 2019 ⁓ with Johns Hopkins University. And they also agreed to a study in 2021 or 2022 with the University of Miami. Neither one took place ⁓ because one side or another dropped the ball. And I just ⁓ kind of not giving up on studying mushrooms. I’ll get there.

ian mccall (33:31)

But I was presented this deal because of Heroic Hearts Project. Jesse Gold, who I’ve modeled my entire nonprofit.

ian mccall (33:41)

ecosystem after HHP. ⁓ He says, hey, you should study your people’s brains. Because they’ve done veteran studies with ⁓ certain amounts of TBI, because veterans have subconcussive blows from guns. They have big blasts from getting blown up. They fall. Of course, they have traumatic brain injury. But maybe not as bad as we have it, I guess you could say.

ian mccall (34:13)

I just, it was more or less this was waiting in front of me and I knew I could use this big tool of Ayahuasca at the Ayahuasca Foundation. That’s the thing, this is the highest level of science. You don’t get any higher than this. We’re down at the Ayahuasca Foundation ⁓ in Peru ⁓ with Onaya Sciences, you know, the first PhD of Ayahuasca ever.

ian mccall (34:37)

No psychopharmacologists and people giving TED Talks. My team at OniSciences are killers. They are, it’s probably the wrong word to use. They’re really good at what they do. And I’m proud to call them my friends and my colleagues.

ian mccall (34:55)

We have the framework all set up. It’s just waiting for us to raise the money. It’ll be our first study. Yes, there’s been veteran studies. This will be the first ⁓ of its kind. The first study, if I can raise the entire, all the money by September, great. If not, then the amount of science will kind of.

ian mccall (35:15)

slim down because science is expensive. But I’m leaving the door open. If I can raise all $100 ,000 by then, great. We’ll test everybody ⁓ to the craziest degree we can. ⁓ But more or less, just like Herok Hart’s project did multiple years ago, they start with the story.

ian mccall (35:35)

You know, science is really expensive and I need this to happen as soon as possible. You know, my baronoko boxer, we won a world title last year and we lost a world title last year. All within one year, two of the craziest fights ever. You can check him out, Mark The Sharker would. And by the end, he was in the hospital, ⁓ you know, severely concussed. And as a coach…

ian mccall (36:01)

I want a fighter that is willing to die for me out there. That is willing to put his life on the line for me out there. But to see that almost transpire, to see someone who’s like my little brother almost die ⁓ out there, ⁓ was a lot.

ian mccall (36:17)

I have to get him healed. I have to get my surfer, Giorgio Gomez, healed so he can go on to win his world title. And these are all people who are damaged that are in my ecosystem. So I don’t mean to rush it, but I already have a lot of data on these people’s brains, their hormones, their bodies. So…

ian mccall (36:36)

more importantly is to get the word out just like Heroic Hearts Project did. We go out, we collect the stories. I’ve got an Emmy award -winning producer that wants to shoot a documentary. He’s Jordan Kronick, the guy that put me on Real Sports on HBO, wants to shoot a documentary. We’re shooting a documentary on myself. There’s a lot of substance here. When we get the message out,

ian mccall (36:59)

I keep harping on the vets. The vets kicked the door in for us. They got this the awareness available for us, but veterans are supposed to be nameless and faceless. That’s how it works. They signed something. My mentor, Lanceel team six for 20 years, and he does not like that all these special forces guys have podcasts and whatnot. And I laugh at it because he’s an old man. He’s grumpy. You know, kids these days are their goddamn podcast.

ian mccall (37:29)

But ⁓ now veterans, they let this happen. Now we have athletes that people know, that people can, they can, they’re like, ⁓ I saw you on TV. I saw you win, I saw you lose, I saw you give everything for us. So now our heroes have a face. And this is the next step. I know where the next step is coming after that too. The next step is moms on mushrooms, and moms on psychedelics.

ian mccall (37:55)

But check out that Instagram. Those women are gonna change the world for sure. But us as athletes, as heroes, we’re just the next in line to tell our stories.

Sam Believ (38:00)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (38:05)

Mom on Mush was Tracy T. I interviewed her I think ⁓ maybe 10 episodes ago. Yeah, Moms is next because if you get ⁓ happy moms, then you get happy kids and you get the entire happy generation. So it’s not gonna be easy as it’s going mainstream. It’s not gonna be easy to get it there. So people like you, it’s an important work you’re doing because obviously…

Sam Believ (38:30)

You got popular and you got the celebrity status through fighting. Now you’re healing yourself and you’re spreading the message. So I appreciate what you’re doing. And you know, if you do study on athletes and you mentioned ayahuasca, then eventually it just becomes the thing where people relax and stop judging the things they don’t understand that much. And then, you know, I think over my dream is that within next 10 years we’ll go from.

Sam Believ (39:00)

⁓ what the hell is ayahuasca to when’s the last time you did ayahuasca because ⁓ kind of like it happened to meditation it happened to yoga i think ⁓ psychedelics are next but obviously in a in a very in a very organized matter in such a way that we also don’t lose the tradition and we don’t lose the magic and don’t just you know put in the pill and start abusing it like we did with other other plant medicines ⁓ like cacao coca

Sam Believ (39:30)

⁓ tobacco. ⁓ So what do you, could you share it? So we will definitely link to your page for your project to see if somebody who listens maybe wants to contribute or have something to offer. I’m not rich but I would like to offer if you ever need a retreat center to bring some people, we’ll definitely help you on that side. ⁓

ian mccall (39:54)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (39:55)

So definitely open to maybe after the episode we can talk if there’s something I can do for you maybe maybe some people who are listening as well, but ⁓ Talk to us a little bit about McCall method is it still a thing? What is it and how did you came up with it?

ian mccall (40:15)

Well, it’s, you know, it’s in my LLC and it’s a mixture between the scientific platform, you know, research company and a coaching platform.

ian mccall (40:30)

I might have to start another company to separate the two. I don’t know. I’m not good at business stuff. I’m just flying by the seat of my pants here. ⁓ But it’s my company that I can take opportunities. I do consulting, basically. I do consulting within the space of ⁓ science ⁓ because ⁓ I’ve got…

ian mccall (40:51)

You know, schools like Harvard and Columbia, University of Rochester, these Ivy League schools that are asking me to come and speak. When they asked me last year, I laughed.

ian mccall (41:05)

I don’t have any information. I’m just a talking head. So now I’m trying to go out there and collect this information through the nonprofit ⁓ and expand my capabilities as a researcher. Because I am a researcher. I have more applied science of these medicines than I guarantee you ⁓ over 90 % of the other researchers, maybe more. I’ve used these medicines with so many people on so many occasions in different

ian mccall (41:35)

different variable. So I have to prove myself and I like proving myself. I like proving people wrong. I like showing them that I’m not a dummy, that I’m not just a fighter, you know, that I am this different person that I was meant to be my whole life. ⁓

ian mccall (41:52)

Awareness is key, obviously, as we push through with this. I’ve got a good team, an ecosystem of people. I mean, the McCall method started as ⁓ me giving a platform to the people that taught me what I know. That’s what it started as. So just like with athletes journey home, if I can give, if I can, you know,

ian mccall (42:18)

build this company and have investments or have funds from grants or whatever it is we’re trying to accomplish, then I get to pay my friends to work for me. Seems like a pretty good job, pretty cool thing I can set up because for some reason I’m able to connect this sort of stuff. I’m able to pull this sort of stuff off. And psychedelics doesn’t really pay very well, at least. I know maps just cashed out $100 million.

ian mccall (42:47)

with Lycos, I don’t know if you heard about that, ⁓ but MAPS just sold out, ⁓ shocker. Two pharmaceutical company, you know, there’s that.

ian mccall (43:01)

The pharmaceutical industry, big business, is always trying to take from us. It’s always trying to take from us.

ian mccall (43:09)

I’m just trying to do the Lord’s work here and ⁓ prove good science and keep keeping on what science is supposed to be doing. We’re supposed to be proving things and accomplishing these things we ⁓ want to achieve, you know, and not be deterred by money or be manipulated by some person’s agenda. No, no, no, no. We’re going to be doing the right thing forever.

ian mccall (43:39)

And that’s anything I get my hands on. I’m trying to make sure that there’s a good moral compass behind it. Because science has done us wrong for so long. I’m just trying to be the good guy.

Sam Believ (43:52)

Yeah, I think that you mentioned as well that universe kind of guides you on a certain path and when you wear off it, you will feel it. It will come in as a resistance of some form. So if we’re going the wrong way, it will be known, but.

Sam Believ (44:13)

Yeah, it’s sad what you said about maps. I didn’t know how I always thought of maps as ⁓ a beacon of hope, you know, for the space. But I’m sure people will see through it if it becomes too corporate and too, ⁓ you know, ⁓ money oriented. But ⁓ yeah.

ian mccall (44:36)

Most people don’t know the history of maps. And they don’t know…

ian mccall (44:43)

So my mentor, one of my mentors, Robert Fortek.

ian mccall (44:49)

He was taught how to synthesize MDMA by Sasha Shulgin ⁓ in the lab in Santa Cruz. He wrote the book, Grodur Lucis with Timothy Leary and Rock and Watson. He was also the first person to ever give Rick Doblin MDMA. And Rick Doblin in turn, which is something they were giving away basically for free to all the therapists. Rick Doblin is the reason why MDMA became illegal in the first place.

ian mccall (45:20)

So really, we gotta think about this. He’s been planning this shit for a long time. It’s not this amazing thing that everyone’s so like, it’s the evil org, dude. It’s not, and I probably shouldn’t be saying this, but I’m going to, because they just got bought out by a giant pharma company, so we probably won’t even have another maps conference that I ever wanna go to again. You know?

ian mccall (45:44)

They were taking Soros money. They were doing very bad things, taking money from very bad people. And like I said, Rick did this in the first place. He made it illegal so he could make money off it. It was already being done. And what they’ve done is created a huge gap in now the underground market because Maps is gonna map, okay, Lycos got, they absorbed or didn’t buy it or whatever. They paid $100 million for Maps.

ian mccall (46:11)

Well, then they got absorbed by a much larger, ⁓ what is it? Osaka or Atsuka Pharma absorbed them. So now, MAPS is now a pharmaceutical company and it’s gross. And they’re pushing out all of the therapists where you have to be this licensed this and this licensed that, like you have to be doctor level sort of stuff to get anything done now. This is all coming down the pipe. Just watch. And… ⁓

ian mccall (46:39)

So they’re pushing most of us back into the illegal side of it or the gray market or ⁓ whatever you want to call a church model, whatever you want to take. But this is going to be a big hit. We’re going to see the ripples of it very soon. It’s going to come back and it’s going to bite everyone in the ass. And I found this out yesterday. It’s been eating away at me. I’m like, man, I’m really bummed because, ⁓ you know,

ian mccall (47:09)

outside of all the the woke -ism that was at MAPS, you know, like I’m I just kind of as a culture I just kind of not I don’t kind of don’t look at all that nonsense, but Rick Doblin had pictures of him with communist leaders ⁓ at his booth.

ian mccall (47:26)

on his like a TV thing. He was like showing a bunch of pictures of him with a bunch of communist leaders. And I was like, you said no one see what’s happening here. This is crazy. This is all like, it really fucked up agenda to screw up our country and our world. And I get back to the Soros thing and all these other little things you got to look at. If you look at the broader picture, it ⁓ gave us hope, but it’s been a CIA run organization the whole time.

ian mccall (47:55)

The CIA has been doing this forever.

Sam Believ (47:56)

Yeah, it sucks to be a conspiracy theorist, but there are a couple conspiracy theorists that make a lot of sense. So, you know, including the whole ⁓ reason why psychedelics are illegal at the first place, it’s definitely not for safety of people, you know, if they wanted you to be healthy and safe, they would ban fast food restaurants and they would ban ⁓ alcohol, but it’s all about…

Sam Believ (48:22)

money and control which is which is okay so yeah there’s ⁓ yeah there’s definitely hidden side to it and hidden interests but let’s not let’s not wear off let’s let’s focus on ⁓ yeah let’s let’s let’s focus on what we can do something about which is what can you do to get better and and how ⁓ you got better right you

ian mccall (48:35)

Yeah, that’s the human condition, sorry.

Sam Believ (48:49)

you were also addicted when you were fighting you were taking ⁓ painkillers right and you were in a pretty bad state so talk to us about that side of your story how was it and what helped you

ian mccall (49:01)

DMT is what kicked me off of the addiction train and it said hey, it’s time to grow up Peter Pan Count Chocula, you know, it’s time to be an adult and I finally feel like an adult six years later like literally just turning 40 I finally feel like I’ve hit the adult stride in my life It started with painkillers when I was ⁓ 14 ⁓ wrestling in high school doctors

ian mccall (49:30)

of my generation were giving out pills like they were candy. So I liked them, I liked them a lot and I used them the entire time I was wrestling in high school, when I was wrestling in college, when I was fighting and it just got progressively worse and worse and worse and then I had to rehab twice, I died of a drug overdose and I…

ian mccall (49:57)

My second time out of rehab, I thought fighting was over with. I had already blown my career. I figured, okay, I gotta find my life, but my safe space is the gym. Always, it always has been. You know, I…

ian mccall (50:15)

I’ve tried. And I was in such good shape and I was beating up everybody. Like I was beating up world class people who would come by the gym and I would make them look really bad. And…

ian mccall (50:33)

Rumor kind of started to go, they’re like, ⁓ guess who’s back? Guess who’s better than ever? Guess who’s focused? Guess who’s sober? Me. And I got a fight. My coach just knew I needed money. I didn’t have any money at the time. Okay, well yeah, I need some money. So he had me fight somebody. And someone I knew I could beat. You know, it was a good tune -up fight. Well, that was the springboard. You know, I…

ian mccall (51:01)

I screwed up once after that fight because I was going to go get a tattoo. I got my chest tattoo, the big secret heart, and I used drugs, and I overdosed. So I relapsed. I was sober for so long. I relapsed, and I was like, I can’t do this anymore. I go, shit. OK, I’ve got to get my life together. So I signed. My agent called me in the hospital. He said, hey, where have you been? You’re not at the gym. I said, well, I told him where I was. I was in the hospital. I had been.

ian mccall (51:30)

I relapsed and I overdosed. ⁓ He goes, okay, well, you know, do you want me to come see you? I have some stuff to talk about. And I was like, no, what is it? He says, well, we want you to fight the number one guy in the world at a lower weight.

ian mccall (51:48)

And it’s about you finally, because I was always small from 135, ⁓ bantam weight. So I said, sure. And I signed the paperwork for my hospital bed after I was just dead like a week before that. And ⁓ you know, I was always incredibly gifted. I was able to come out of that and I was, I was the best in the world a few months later. ⁓ Even the doctor.

ian mccall (52:13)

As I was leaving, he was testing me. He’s like, you’re not the superhuman. He’s like, what is happening here? He’s like, I was ⁓ on the operating table for 24 hours ⁓ when I overdosed. My brother had to wait 24 hours to tell my parents that I was alive. And he goes, I revived you, and now a week later, letting you go, you’re in better shape than I’ve ever seen anyone in my entire life. You know, I am.

ian mccall (52:41)

Physically different mentally different than most people because I’m just a super athlete. It’s it’s my god -given gifts That I’ve squandered at that point So I was able to get off the bed go out there and win and I kept sobriety I went on a tear I beat up a bunch of people the UFC said hey if you’re gonna keep doing this we’re gonna finally make a division for you because I had already known them

ian mccall (53:06)

since I was 19, you know, again, I was a prodigy fighter, so they knew who I was, and my mentor was Chuck Waddell, so he was a former world champion. And they ⁓ gave me that offer, and my very first fight in the UFC, I went in sober, I went in incredible shape, I beat arguably the greatest fighter of all time. ⁓ I should be looked at as one of the greatest fighters of all time. Mighty Mouse.

Sam Believ (53:32)

Who is the guy you… Okay, yeah I’ve heard about him.

ian mccall (53:36)

Demetrius Jonathan, you know, ⁓ in my eyes, he’s the greatest mixed martial artist of all time. ⁓ And ⁓ that’s besides the fact of me fighting him at all. He’s fucking incredible. But the fact that I beat him once is pretty neat. That night or that when the judges read the scorecards, they gave it to him. ⁓ And if you watch that fight, I won that fight. Well.

ian mccall (54:05)

My coaches, I freaked out, ran in the back, started crying. I was like, you know, I was really upset. My coaches knew something was up. They found the judges, they found the scorecards and realized that they had read it wrong. So then Dana White came to me later and was like, ⁓ well, you, you’re, you’re getting another fight. ⁓ don’t worry. But I was so fucked up mentally. I had watched, you know, I had my ex -wife cause a lot of issues at that point of, of, of.

ian mccall (54:35)

So, I was just, a lot of drama was happening. And I went upstairs and I started using drugs with her. I started using Oxy -Contin again. Because it was just so much drama. Even though I had the second fight ⁓ coming up, I just got paid a bunch of money. I just lost it and I started using again. From the stress. I started, I just, I couldn’t, I was like, I can’t catch a fucking break.

ian mccall (55:03)

You know, I do this, I beat this guy, I get screwed. Well, you know, fast forward a few months, we fight again, he only gets better, I get worse. My life gets more dramatic. My life gets just completely torn upside down. And…

ian mccall (55:22)

I, for the rest of my career, was doing this. I’d get sober and fight and win, and get high again and lose, and do this. I was never able to keep it together. And I’m not the only person that’s this good that’s out there in a lot of sports.

ian mccall (55:36)

You think that ⁓ this greatest of all time is the greatest, there’s better out there. They just probably don’t have their shit together. Like, like I did, you know, like I, I, you know, it’s, it’s not to be like the old guy thinking I’m tough, but like, I’m still better than all these kids that are fighting in the UFC. I know that cause I trained with them, you know, but I agree that I don’t have the will or the want or the need to fight ever again or hurt anybody or have anyone hurt me. But, ⁓

ian mccall (56:04)

You know, these addictions, they lasted for so long. I’m still dealing with addicted tendencies, you know, in my life as a coach, as a person, because that’s life. You know, you just manicure them and you cage them up, you know, just enough.

ian mccall (56:22)

It’s like that crazy person that was trying to kill somebody in the cage for all those years, for 16 years, I was trying to murder somebody. That person hides right under my skin. It’s right there. Those addictions are right there. But I have control of my life. I have shit to do. I have a daughter to raise. I have, ⁓ I don’t have a girlfriend right now, but I have a…

ian mccall (56:48)

I ⁓ have responsibilities. I have a gym to take care of. I have athletes to deal with. These things that eventually, if you can get past those addictive tendencies, or put them into a better motion, go get addicted to working out, get addicted to eating healthy, get addicted to breath work and meditation. Weird research like me. Addictions can be used for good.

ian mccall (57:18)

That’s what I’ve learned. If you can really take the reins.

Sam Believ (57:22)

I just had a thought come to me. Maybe if you would have won that fight and it was completely ⁓ 100 % ⁓ approved and you got that accolades and you would have been the greatest of all time in that sport. Maybe it would not have led you to the walk of life at which you’re in right now. And I think that this is much more valuable for the world than you just winning. So I think your big win is coming.

Sam Believ (57:53)

And it’s going to be much more meaningful not just for yourself but for the world and for the veterans you’re trying to help and for the athletes you’re trying to help. So I think the universe works in mysterious ways or God or whatever you prefer to call it. So and I think it’s going to lead you to something really awesome and I’m happy to have had this conversation with you and I think ⁓ yeah, I’m excited towards to come for you and I’d like to ⁓ you know.

Sam Believ (58:23)

be of assistance if I can and ⁓ with the work I’m doing. I have many ideas that I’m gonna talk to you right after we finish with this podcast but meanwhile so for people that they want to go find you or maybe want to go support you where can they find you where can they get to you and also maybe any last recommendations.

ian mccall (58:50)

So what you said is 100 % right. My life is a cautionary tale. I’m fine. My life is great. My life is really, really incredible now. And if I would have accomplished all that stuff, I’d look at like a Conor McGregor, for instance.

ian mccall (59:09)

Kind of a douche bag, you know? Kind of not like, ⁓ not the person I wanna be. You know, I would have probably, I probably would be dead by now and I wouldn’t be able to accomplish what I’m living now. So you are 100 % right. And I’ve offered con and mushrooms a bunch of times, but we won’t do it. So yes.

Sam Believ (59:32)

Connor needs ayahuasca mushrooms. Mushrooms will not be enough. Maybe that crazy vision I had ⁓ is gonna happen to life someday. You never know.

ian mccall (59:42)

I’m trying to tiptoe my way in because we know some of the same people and they’re like, no, no, no, a bag ⁓ will go a lot longer.

Sam Believ (59:51)

Yeah.

ian mccall (59:52)

⁓ I don’t want to hang out with you then, never mind. But, so, where you can reach me, my personal Instagram is Ian McCall. You can see all the different stuff I’m doing. I mean, we didn’t even touch on the illicit psychedelic stuff that pays my bills. But that’s, you can check it out there.

ian mccall (60:15)

My life’s work is athletes journey home. So please go there, go to the website, donate. We need money. I mean, I’ve been funding this thing myself the whole time and it’s expensive. And the more we can get, the better the studies can be and the more information we can collect from these people’s brains, better stories we can tell because this information is not only going to help with traumatic brain injury.

ian mccall (60:41)

It’s going to show a drop of inflammation in the brain and the body of such great effect that we can ⁓ help fight all the neurocognitive diseases, things like cancer, whether it’s basic depression. I mean, we can touch on all of it. That’s what this information would give. So thank you for listening. Thank you for donating. Thank you for just giving me the good energy.

Sam Believ (61:08)

Thank you and thank you so much for coming. Beautiful episodes. Guys, thank you for listening to Ayahuasca Podcast and I will see you in the next episode.

In this episode of AyahuascaPodcast.com host Sam Believ has a conversation with Phoenix White, founder of Sacred Celestial.

We touch upon subjects of postpartum depression, negative sides of facilitation, having hard life as prepararion to help others.

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to

http://www.lawayra.com

Find more about x at http://www.thesacredcelestial.com

http://www.phoenixwhite.com

@phoenixwhite

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:02.081)

guys and welcome to ayahuasca podcast as always with you the host Sanbeliev today we’re interviewing Phoenix Wyatt. Phoenix is a mother she’s a business owner she’s speaker and author and she’s a founder of sacred celestial Phoenix welcome to the podcast.

Phoenix (00:16.718)

Thank you so much. Appreciate you having me.

Sam Believ (00:21.697)

Phoenix, tell us a little bit about your life story and what brought you into the work with psychedelics.

Phoenix (00:31.79)

So my life story, that is like such a layered question. What part do you want me to go into as far as my life story?

Sam Believ (00:38.721)

There’s many things, you know, being a mother and sexual trauma, whatever you take it, but bring us to the beginning. What was your first experience? When did it start? And when did you realize that you’re inspired to not only work with psychedelics yourself, but also facilitate and help others?

Phoenix (01:02.189)

I would say that my life story started just as a child who went through a lot of trauma. You know, not that my childhood was horrible, but it had its moments where I had a lot of trauma, a lot of abuse, a lot of bullying, a lot of pain. And so I think just starting from there and just feeling like I was always different, like I was always sent here for something bigger than just myself. I always felt like I was this weird,

alien person that just got dropped off on this planet. I was like, why am I here? You know, and I’m on this assignment, this life assignment. So I think sometimes when you have a calling on your life that’s really big or when you’re called to help other people, I find that some of our stories or some of our, you know, our processes are really, really hard. You know, our journeys are harder.

So and I think that the journey, I don’t have any regrets about any of my journey from abuse or pain or all that stuff because it makes me more relatable. It also makes me have more empathy for the people that I work with. Another thing that got me to psychedelics, I would say was moving to Mexico. So after having two brain surgeries and having a new baby, so I have an 18 year old and now I have a four year old. And when my…

little baby was born, we moved to Mexico. And when I moved to Mexico, that’s how I started to learn more about psychedelics. I was already in healing work. So that I was already doing, but I think psychedelics was just another add -on to what I was already doing. And it was like, poof. You know, like my world just like blew open and it became like this super dominant thing because I felt like with psychedelics and it was a mushroom ceremony.

Sam Believ (02:44.993)

Mm -hmm.

Phoenix (02:55.306)

that I tried first because I was working with a healing center that I was investing in in Mexico. And they kept asking me to try it, try it. And I was like, I’m not promoting nothing that I haven’t tried. Y ‘all are ingesting stuff. You know, I had heard really bad things about psychedelics growing up. It’s not really something that in my culture was talked about or used in any way, not even for fun. And so my culture didn’t have, that wasn’t like a part of it. Like it wasn’t something that I.

Sam Believ (03:20.065)

Mm -hmm.

Phoenix (03:24.041)

heard of in a positive way. It was always something to do at a party or what hippies did or something like that. So when I got ahold of psychedelics, I was like, my gosh, this is a life hack. And it’s not doing it the way that I would say people do it in parties. I only learned how to do it in ceremonies. And so it’s honoring the medicine in a different sort of way. It’s using it as a medicine. It’s not.

necessarily even calling it a psychedelic or calling it a drug. It’s called a plant medicine in my world. And so natural plant medicines. So that’s how I pretty much got into it. And I was just like, no one’s going to try this that I know unless it came through me. Like nobody that I know is going to go to the forest in the jungle and going to try some random something, going to drink some concoction and.

they’re gonna take it, they have to trust it. People feel like, or people have heard that you just go crazy and you start seeing a bunch of stuff. Like no one talked about how deeply it could heal you, how it can bring you face to face with yourself. No one talked about that. And so that’s not what we were told. And so when I did it, that’s what I gave to people. So I became that safe space for people to be able to feel safe enough to come into that environment and to try something new to be able to heal. And that’s how I got here. Long.

Sam Believ (04:46.483)

It’s a great story, Phoenix. So you mentioned being different. Can you talk a little bit maybe about is there a trauma there, you know, trauma of not belonging or feeling different? Do you feel anything there or is it wasn’t that bad?

Phoenix (04:46.715)

I’m

Phoenix (05:06.565)

You mean now?

Sam Believ (05:08.385)

I mean, when you started your self -work.

Phoenix (05:11.367)

well when I started my self work, it was, yes, it was feeling different. I didn’t start doing psychedelics because of a trauma. I think it was, I wanted to see more of who I was. And I think in that first ceremony, it was like, can we cuss on here or no?

Sam Believ (05:29.985)

Sure, I mean…

Phoenix (05:31.878)

Well I was like shit. You know this is like a life hack right and so I I wanted to make sure that I was figuring out more of who I was supposed to become that’s why I went and wanted to try the medicine like who am I what’s my next step what am I supposed to be doing next and it showed me this is what you’re doing next it’s you’re doing plant medicine you are bringing this to the world.

in a different way through you or the people that are supposed to come into contact with you. And that was what I found when I did my first ceremony. I saw more of who I was. It was pretty cool.

Sam Believ (06:11.649)

So you’re a mother of two, right? And I think if I’m not mistaken, you had postpartum depression with both babies, right? But you treated it differently first time versus the second time. Can you talk to us about that? Like how did you use all those tools that you picked up in your life?

Phoenix (06:14.565)

Yes.

Phoenix (06:27.031)

Yeah.

Phoenix (06:31.173)

Yeah, so I call it a multi -sensory support plan that I created for myself during my second pregnancy. My first pregnancy, I didn’t have those tools. My son is 18. So when I first had my first child, I was only like 25. And so, well, 24, about to be 25. And he wasn’t planned. The father really wasn’t around as much.

I was very, very depressed. My hair was falling out. I didn’t know about the chemical imbalances. I had support in a sense, but not mental support. You know, it’s like I had like some help with the baby here and there, but emotionally I was really, really struggling with depression. And so I didn’t know anything about postpartum depression, but I did find myself driving to the top of a cliff and about to drive over the cliff in California.

And so that’s when I realized, my gosh, this must be really, really real. And I don’t even remember driving off of that cliff. It must’ve been just on autopilot some kind of way, because I was very high up. I would say 12 ,000 feet high, like on a cliff in Los Angeles. And I think some kind of way, I knew I had a bigger mission in this world. Something took me off the cliff because I don’t remember driving off of it, to be honest with you. I just remember sitting over it.

and just seeing, I was like, I could just push the gas right now, I’m gonna go over. I just wanted to end all the pain that I was in. I felt like my child didn’t like me, he was crying, I didn’t know how to be a mom. I didn’t have the tools. I didn’t know what I was doing. He was always crying. I didn’t feel like he liked me. I had all these things going on in my head. I don’t know if your wife experiences, but big chunks of my hair would fall out. It was just things going on with my body that I was never.

taught about. Like no one told me certain things may happen to me. So I didn’t have support in that way. I didn’t have a therapist. I didn’t have a coach. I didn’t have a support team that could help me. And the partner that I was dating, we were just in a rocky place. Like he was doing a lot of really terrible stuff. And so there wasn’t a whole lot of trust there. He also didn’t know what to do. We were also very young. And if I switch fast forward to my second baby,

Phoenix (08:58.242)

I had all the supports you could dream about. I had my life coach and my therapist, because I had the second baby at 40. So 25 and 40, I’m two different people, right? The second baby, I had my coach. We had our baby at home. He was planned. We purposely tried to have him when I got pregnant. I had someone to help me take care of the baby. My partner was there the whole time.

We had, we practiced everything. My coach was on the phone, you know, praying over us and you know what I’m saying, like telling us what to do and how he could be supportive. Like he literally was sitting in the pool of water, I had a water birth, in the water with me while I was pushing out the baby. So I had all the support that you can imagine was my second baby. But then there’s still those days because you’re delirious, you’re tired, you’re waking up every two hours doing that cluster feeding, you know.

milk production wasn’t coming out. So it didn’t matter. Like even though I had all this support and I had this whole multi -sensory support plan, I knew the songs I wanted to hear, I knew what I wanted to feel, I knew what I wanted to eat. I had all this information. I knew who to call. He knew who to call if he couldn’t help me. But I still had a moment where I just felt like everything was crashing. And I think it had to do with the chemical imbalance more so than, you know, me not having the support that I needed.

And I didn’t know about the chemical imbalance. I had to learn about these things. I had to learn about postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety and postpartum psychosis. Like there are three different levels. The first baby I got to psychosis. The first one I was just at a little bit of depression, right? And so like people don’t know that there’s just layers and when they don’t go unchecked, you end up diving into this deep hole and you don’t know how to get out of it. So he was able to call people that…

you know, he knew we were a part of my support plan. They were able to call and say, hey, what’s going on? Here’s what you need to do. How can I help you? How can I support you? And, you know, like I had to learn about milk production and I was having a hard time with that and the baby was mad. It was always crying and it was hard. So that’s getting through those first couple of weeks or month was very, very, it’s brutal sometimes. And I think people don’t understand that. And men also can go through that, that depression as well.

Phoenix (11:25.374)

because there’s a whole new life that’s just been created. So now there’s all this extra pressure, there’s anxiety with that, there’s depression with that, there’s having to be good enough. So there is symptoms for the whole family because everyone’s life has to change. You know, so.

Sam Believ (11:42.209)

Yeah, I feel you. We have two babies, actually a year and a half apart. And my wife is pregnant again now with the girl. This time we have two boys and a girl. So we’ve been going hard on it also while building this retreat center. So it’s hard both for a man and for a woman. For example, with our first kid, I got depressed while she was pregnant because I didn’t know he was all, he kind of brought it up because I didn’t.

Phoenix (12:04.379)

Thank you.

Sam Believ (12:08.843)

really known necessarily at that point of life what to do with my life and I was like, yeah, I don’t know, should I do this, should I do that? And like, can I be a good father? Am I gonna be able to provide? And I think it was one of those, there were many things, but it pushed me into depression, which then pushed me to ayahuasca, which then pushed me to this direction life I’m going to right now, which is divine intervention. And my wife got depressed after.

Phoenix (12:12.637)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (12:33.857)

I think she did, she definitely did have a bit of postpartum after the first baby, but much more after the second one. And I remember she had a nanny and we had the person to cook for her. And obviously I was around all the time because I don’t have, I don’t have to leave somewhere for work, but basically she had a support system, her family. But I was like, she was just being very negative and she was very upset. And I was like, everything she was kind of complaining about.

Phoenix (12:39.876)

Hmm.

Sam Believ (13:02.785)

was not really real. I was like, you know what, the thing’s actually pretty good. Like why is she so negative? And then it hit me because obviously I have in this line of work, I started researching and I came up into a couple of podcast episodes about postpartum depression. I was like, okay, maybe that’s what what’s going on because she was, she was in a very bad mental space without any reason. Like obviously apart from the tiredness of being a mom, but she would lash out on things and it would appear like everything was just.

Phoenix (13:22.587)

Okay.

Sam Believ (13:32.449)

terrible but in reality it was actually pretty good. So what I did was I had some mushrooms in my freezer and I just went and gave her a microdose and I gave her a microdose for a few weeks obviously intermittently and it just got better. That’s it. She just she was able because I think there’s this chemical imbalance thing where you just don’t have enough of serotonin or whatever it is and doesn’t matter what you say and what you do it you just you just need it and that’s where

That’s what mushrooms came in really nicely for me. Obviously, I could have given an ayahuasca, but you know, it’s a bit tough, you know, purging and having a baby. But mushrooms, I think, is an amazing tool for that. So what do you think about mushrooms and microdosing and let’s say for postpartum depression? Did you do it with the second baby or no? Can you like tell us from your point of view?

Phoenix (14:06.426)

You

Phoenix (14:27.418)

I didn’t do it with my second baby. I did a full -blown ceremony, more so than the microdosing. I take microdoses now, every now and then. Like I’m on it. I do microdoses now. Like this week was like a microdosing week just because I’m working on also helping my brain to heal or when I just need to get more in balance because I feel like I’m a little off. But this week it was more focusing on…

connecting new neurons and all that stuff. So because of having two brain surgeries, sometimes I want to just like go into like working and focusing on my brain. So I’ll use the microdosing for that. If I’m really, really having a stressful week, yeah, I can do microdosing for that as well. But I want to go back to something you said about the postpartum with your wife that I think will be really good for viewers to hear is a lot of people forget that when the placenta comes out,

you know, super big, right? It leaves a gaping wound inside of a woman the same size. It’s stuck to the wall of the inside of her body. When that rips apart, that wound is open. And so your body is also rushing to heal that wound in addition to all of your organs having to move back into place that were moved out of place. On top of you get zero break after you have a baby.

literally within minutes, they’re straight to your boob. So you don’t get as much, like we would think that we have all this time and all this separation and all that, and with all the help that we’re getting, but our body is working so hard to rebalance itself. And that placenta was also giving way more nutrients. So now we no longer even have that.

So I remember even having to get my placenta dehydrated and trying to take that just to have some of the nutrients back in my body. So that’s another thing that I think people don’t realize and I think it was very important for you even acknowledging that you went through the same thing. My husband and I, we did counseling, we went to therapy during my pregnancy just to make sure that we were able to like…

Phoenix (16:46.294)

stay grounded and that we didn’t transfer any issues to our baby when he was born. So we did a lot of therapy on ourselves. So that was really nice for you to say, because I rarely hear men talk about themselves going.

Sam Believ (16:58.625)

Yeah, a lot of people, a lot of people don’t know that men also go through hormonal changes during pregnancy. It’s like as, as a female is getting ready for birth, she goes to her changes, obviously much more drastic, but there, there are changes that happens to, to the man and even to men’s body. Like, you know, what they say, like a dad bod it’s actually partially reason for the hormones. I guess it just makes you more, a little softer. So you’re, you could be a bit nicer around the baby. It’s so interesting, you know, our.

Phoenix (17:05.422)

Thank you.

Sam Believ (17:28.435)

our bodies are really perfect in a way they know what to do and how to adjust. So basically when you got depressed you just want no microdosing, let’s just go and go full in. So can we talk a little bit about that both for postpartum but also in general your thoughts on microdosing mushrooms versus macrodosing.

Phoenix (17:56.437)

I think microdosing is good for people who just need to balance everyday stress. So like a lot of my clients who deal with anxiety, they are on, some of them are on a microdosing protocol. And then those who really just want to go deep and just really want to get in there and go hard, they go to the ceremonies. So it just depends on where you’re at. Everybody’s not ready to do a full blown ceremony or to have a psychedelic experience.

or may not even have the time. Because I do feel like you have to be called to that medicine to do it. Like it’s not something you just wake up and it’s like, I’m going to go do psychedelics today. You know, I think that it needs to be a process. I think it’s something that you need to, you know, really research and make sure that that’s something that you really want to do because it’s a long process. You know, mushrooms and ayahuasca, that six, seven hour journey for some people. And so, and you’re on a journey for real.

Like it’s real work. So if people aren’t prepared for that, then I think sometimes they end up with what they call bad trips because either they don’t feel safe in the environment that they’re in, or they weren’t prepared for the journey, or they don’t have a good guide around them. Not that it’s not hard, but it doesn’t have to be a bad, like, you know, they leave the whole experience. Like this is horrible. I’ve never had that. I’ve never had anybody say that.

because of the protocols that we take. But it’s challenging, for sure. I just don’t recommend a lot of people just going full -fledged and just doing it just to do it.

Sam Believ (19:38.337)

You mentioned the word good guide, you know With the I wasca for example I’ve I don’t know if anyone in their right mind would just get some I was can do it by themselves with with mushrooms It’s a it’s a pretty common thing where people just yeah, like here’s this mushrooms I don’t even have a scale to measure how much let me just eat some What are what are your thoughts on that? I mean, obviously they’re so available now

Talk to us about the work you do and why is it important and maybe talk to people that do want to do mushrooms by themselves or what they should look out for and how. That’s a pretty convoluted question, but I think you can wrap up.

Phoenix (20:20.593)

No, it’s a great question. I don’t think people should do it by themselves the first time, but I think it’s fine to do by yourself if you’re doing it the right way. I think sometimes people just do stuff and then they are like panicking. There’s a lot of 911 calls that go through with people who are just trying stuff, not measuring it, not knowing what they’re doing. They feel like they’re going to die. I…

heard of people going into a psychosis state who have called me and like, my friend just did mushrooms and UFO. And now they’re in the hospital and they disconnected from reality. They don’t know who they are. There’s a harm reduction. I’m really big into harm reduction. So there is such a huge risk. And I feel like with this medicine being becoming legalized.

I want us to do it right so it doesn’t get taken away, you know, or banned in some way because people are abusing it. So I just, you know, it’s a part of what I’m doing right now is teaching people how to properly do it. Cause everybody’s not going to come to me for a ceremony. Everybody’s not going to consistently be going to big groups. You know, everybody doesn’t want to be in a group. Well, we do do one on ones, but I just don’t want people to hurt themselves in the process of

doing things without knowing what they’re doing. That is really, really big for me. And I’ve heard it. I’ve heard it many, many, many times. So I do recommend people do it one -on -one or in a group setting with a trip sitter. I call it with a guide or a guardian. We call ours guardians. But it’s the same as a trip sitter and a guide, except for we do it in a more ceremonial, ancestral way.

So we more believe in honoring the medicine and that it’s connected into this weave of the whole world more so than it just being like a substance that you take to go party. Because you get way more out of it in a ceremony, the vibration of it, the energy of it is way bigger. You could take much less in a ceremony than people take when they’re doing it by themselves and get much more out of it than you would just doing it by yourself because of the set and the setting and the…

Phoenix (22:40.718)

you know, making sure we protect the area, making sure that we honor the medicine, because you’re wide open. People don’t realize like how wide open that you are to the spirit world. Some people may not believe in that, but you’re wide open to a whole lot of stuff to come in. And so even protecting that, your senses are really, really heightened. You know, one person can say the wrong thing to you and it could just send you off. You know, you can hear the wrong sound or something can startle you and you are.

spazzing and so it’s creating a safe space and just knowing that somebody’s there. If you go too far off the deep end somebody’s going to guide you back, somebody’s going to hold your hand, somebody’s going to rock you, somebody’s going to rub your head, somebody’s going to make sure that you feel safe and protected. That’s what we do and that’s what is really really important. Some people they don’t touch you when they do their you know therapy, psychedelic therapy.

Ours is different. We’re more of a multi -sensory healing experience. And so everything we do has to do with touch. It’s non -sexual touch. And of course we get consent, but we are holding people. We are wiping their tears or rubbing their head or rocking them or whatever is needed in that moment to make sure that they feel seen and felt and heard and protected and safe. And that is what I feel makes us different.

Sam Believ (24:03.595)

Yeah, definitely touching is a sensitive topic. You gotta really know how to do it because sometimes if you touch somebody from the back and they maybe had a trauma, then it can trigger something and then they can freak out. You talk about your life was pretty hard and there was lots of trauma, but that led you then to…

to become a facilitator. So I think I have a somewhat similar story. What do you think happens with people like us that sort of have difficult life that then brings us on the path of helping others? What is your theory behind that?

Phoenix (24:49.223)

I believe that we have to be able to understand what it’s like to be on the other end. Because otherwise we’re just, we don’t know what we’re talking about if we’ve never experienced anything. Like, there’s a lot of people that can come and tell me things, but I am not going to trust someone who’s been through nothing. It’s like, you don’t get me. You don’t understand my life. You don’t know what I’ve been through. So you can’t really tell me how that experience feels based off of your research.

I need to know what you’ve been through. I need to know that you really understand me in order for me to be able to connect to you. And I think those people that have those stories, it’s our stories, it’s our testimonies, the things that we’ve survived and we’ve been through is what’s inspiring people. It’s not necessarily like, you know, all the degrees we have and all the certifications we have, but how do we relate? How do we live our lives? What have we been through? What have we survived? I think that is what builds that real solid connection to where people can connect.

feel like they can trust you. You know, and I think that is what makes it more important. You’re way more effective when you’ve survived something or you’re able to understand. That’s what I believe.

Sam Believ (26:00.961)

Speaking of surviving, you had brain surgery and you had a near -death experience, so you literally survived. Can you tell us about that experience and if you have seen any parallels in between near -death states and psychedelic states?

Phoenix (26:21.545)

Yeah, you know, I’ve never had that question before, but that is, it is kind of parallel in a sense to where when you’re about to die, you go into this state or I wouldn’t say you’re about to die. When you’re in this space where I was, which was this in -between space, it was a black space. It was warm, it was cozy, it was beautiful. And I was just floating there, like weightlessly just.

And it was beautiful and it felt good. And it was, you know, in this, this area, I don’t know what part, I felt like I was in the in -between. That’s what I call it. In the in -between where it’s like, I’m not in the natural world. I’m not, I haven’t passed through where I’ve died, but I’m like right in between where it’s like, you’re either going to go this way or you’re going to go that way. You know, that’s, that’s where I was. And I think.

and being able to completely, 100 % remember that whole experience, kinda like how you do when you’re on mushrooms or ayahuasca, you remember pretty much everything. It’s not a dream, you know it’s real, you know where you were. I guess it is sort of parallel, because you see things from a different perspective. So on plant medicine, I feel like it’s different from dream state, right?

Where it’s like your dreams, you don’t know if it’s real or not. Plant medicine, I feel like, my gosh, I can see everything more clearly now. The things that I can’t naturally see, I can see now. It’s more like that, or the information that I’m getting downloaded into me, it’s like, where’s that coming from? Why didn’t I think of that before? Why didn’t I see that before? It’s like, what I’m seeing and feeling for me is real. When I’m on psychedelics, it’s just, I can’t see it as well when I’m not.

I was like, this makes sense. That’s why I dreamed that. this makes sense. That’s why I was doing that back then. that’s why I’m so connected to pyramids and why I’m, you know, you see different things. You’re like, wow. It makes it make sense to me. That’s how I felt about it. But feeling like you’re going to die in the in -between space. It wasn’t a lot going on for me. It was just being in that warm space and hearing a voice and choosing to ignore it for a while.

Phoenix (28:46.246)

and then you start to listen more and more to that voice, it sucks you that way. If I’d have stayed, I think, where I was and let that feeling just absorb me, I probably would have died. But because I started listening to whoever it was, the doctor, I suppose, was calling my name, trying to get me to come back, that is what jolted me back the other direction, because I started paying attention to it.

But I wasn’t thinking of my kids or memories or thoughts of what I had to do. Like nothing existed in that space. It was just a voice. And so I didn’t feel sad or bad or like I was missing out on anything. It was just like, okay, I guess I’ll listen. I’ll tune into the voice. So that’s what made that different.

Sam Believ (29:35.297)

It’s interesting that number one, I think ancient Greeks, when they were drinking this medicine, LSD -like medicine, their motto was, if you die before you die, you don’t die when you die. As in psychedelics being a rehearsal for death. Then ayahuasca, we notice a lot, because we host in a year about 700 people and it keeps coming over and over again. People feel like they’re dying or they’re…

Phoenix (29:54.308)

Okay.

Sam Believ (30:04.673)

they’re going through that experience. Even in our instructions we say, if you feel like you’re dying, just die, because you’ll be reborn. You’re not really dying. But it feels like that. And I recently interviewed Kyle Buller, he’s a co -founder of Psychedelics Today, and he explained his near -death experience, and that it was really similar to your psychedelic experiences, which kind of makes me think about dying being a spiritual process as well, and makes me kind of believe in…

Phoenix (30:12.6)

Right.

Sam Believ (30:33.055)

whatever happens to our souls afterwards. So speaking about ayahuasca and dying, you mentioned pyramids. That’s interesting because my first ever ayahuasca experience was all about pyramids. Even though I haven’t been to Egypt, I haven’t thought about pyramids, but it was all about pyramids and Egyptian. It’s like a lot of people go to this sort of Egyptian style realm. What is it about pyramids?

Phoenix (30:59.587)

I think that if you look on the maps, right, there’s pyramids everywhere and a lot of them are literally lined up connecting to each other. If you look on a map and you actually like connect them, they’re really all kind of connected. So I feel like there was some sort of electromagnetic type spiritual current. It was something that was happening with these pyramids that connected.

all of these different countries together around the world, that they are aligned somewhat in the same spaces. And of course, it’s like pointed up towards the heavens. You can see them on maps raised up, you know, pretty high. But if you look at the different points and the different electrical points, I feel like it had to do with their version of electricity. Because if you think about even the pyramids in Egypt, they used to be covered in gold. So I went to Egypt after I’d…

I tried my brain surgery because I saw all these visions and all these things. I was like, maybe I’m supposed to go to Egypt, you know? And so when I went there, everything looked familiar. I felt like deja vu. You know, that’s what I called it back then. But really, it was just memories. I had like all these memories of Egypt. So when I took my first mushroom ceremony, it was totally Egypt. I saw all the Egyptian stuff. I saw all the pyramids.

Even the ones that made my dreams make sense, recurring dreams that I used to have, it just made them all make sense, you know, and who I was and, you know, part of my journey. Things that I had went through in Egypt is, you know, kind of similar things in my life now. Some of the work that I was doing when I was in Egypt in a past life. People believe in that sort of thing. I believe in it and it just made sense.

for me, it connected the dots. But I think a lot of us originated there or had.

Sam Believ (32:57.921)

There’s definitely.

Phoenix (33:03.904)

So what are you going to say?

Sam Believ (33:06.113)

No, there’s definitely something about Egypt and yeah, they…

Phoenix (33:07.808)

Wait.

Sam Believ (33:12.065)

And they say, you know, the first humans originated in sort of that general area. So I don’t know, maybe eventually figure out. But my experience was there was a very clear message that if I go to Egypt, I will get a gift. And it was, I think, more than four years ago now, like five years ago. And I still haven’t gone. So I don’t know. I need to find time. But life is busy. So somebody’s in Egypt, you know.

Phoenix (33:39.616)

It’s an

Sam Believ (33:41.569)

Reach out, invite me.

Phoenix (33:41.984)

Yeah, it’s you know what? I know a few people who do tours and not tours but retreats they take people to Egypt but one thing about Egypt is When one person prays the whole country is praying at the same time. It’s a very very spiritual place It’s the same in Malaysia. It’s like Because I remember my first time being there and it was just this uproar like

5 in the morning, I want to say, or 35 in the morning, and it was still dark and everybody was just this roar and I was like, what is happening? It was like my first night there in Egypt. This was some years ago. And I realized that it was everybody in the whole country praying at the same time, facing the same direction. And I was like, do you know how powerful that is for everybody to be saying the same prayer at the same time?

Phoenix (34:47.526)

me? Can you hear me? That is insane to me to be so connected all together how powerful that energy must be. So when I went into the pyramids because I actually got to go down into one of the pyramids, I think that was one of those eerie is something going on in here type experiences. Like I went inside of one of the tombs.

Sam Believ (34:49.153)

Thank you.

Phoenix (35:16.165)

and to hear the echo around the room, you just feel like it’s hundreds of people in there. Like it just feels very, very eerie. Like you could feel the energy and you’re like completely underground. It’s very intense. So I definitely would say I got some gifts there and then what some of the people told me while I was there.

you know, like people were bowing to me everywhere I went and I was so confused. I was like bowing back thinking it was the culture and it was like, no, they see something in you that you may not see. And I was like, okay. And I had to come home and do even research on that. It’s like, who, who was I? Who were these, who do these people think I am? You know, so that’s a lot of, you definitely will get some, some answers or more questions after those answers. So it’s kind of like a rabbit hole.

Sam Believ (36:09.281)

Yeah, you mentioned many people praying at the same time. One of my crazy dreams is wake up in a world where yesterday everyone had ayahuasca or could be mushrooms as well. But imagine a country or a city where it’s a ceremony and everyone is in the ceremony at the same time. Imagine the energy that would produce. I think it would make waves and go around the globe several times. That’s a pretty exciting thing to imagine.

Phoenix (36:34.275)

for sure.

for sure. That would be so, so beautiful.

Sam Believ (36:41.537)

So tell us about your ayahuasca experience. I know you work with ayahuasca as well. How was it for you?

Phoenix (36:49.219)

So I remember doing ayahuasca in this temple in Mexico and ayahuasca is intense. But I knew that I needed like a, I needed to just, I needed this jolt forward. Cause I felt like I had gotten to this little, you know, this middle space where I was just kind of like, eh, just feeling, not numb, but just feeling kind of like lackluster. And I was like, I need a jolt. I need.

I need a push and so I went to an Ayahuasca ceremony. And Ayahuasca is a little different because it’s like a guided journey. I don’t feel like mushrooms, it’s like this guided journey. I feel like it’s a bunch of different journeys and you pass off to a different guide for each one. Whereas Ayahuasca, I felt like I had the same narrator that had this grandmother sort of vibe or voice.

And it’s also very, very physically intense. You know, like I don’t throw up on mushrooms, but I for sure threw up on ayahuasca. And so I didn’t think I was going to, I was like, nah, you know, I cleaned my system, all this stuff, but it doesn’t matter. And I didn’t throw up until I saw all these layers of old traumas just lifting up off of me of abuse that I didn’t even remember. And…

I don’t know, it was beautiful. It was one of the first times I had gotten to do something for myself, not helping others in the process in a really long time. And it was beautiful, it was challenging, but I was there for the challenge. I think us facilitators were like, all right, give it to me. What do I gotta work on next? So that’s how I kind of went into Ayahuasca, like, tell me what I need to do. What do I need to get rid of? What do I need to work on? Like, give me the direction, I’m here for it.

But it is intense, like I don’t have to ever do ayahuasca again. Honestly. If I never did it again, I feel like I got everything I needed. I had fun, I cried, I laughed harder than I ever laughed in my life. I purged, I did so much in that one ceremony that I just, it was beautiful. That I don’t feel like I even need it again.

Phoenix (39:13.856)

It was so intense for me, but in a great way.

Sam Believ (39:17.985)

That’s too bad, I was about to invite you to Loire, but it’s too bad. But what about that purge? Did you feel that something left you?

Sam Believ (39:31.489)

In that purge, did you feel that this trauma or a part of it left your body when you purged?

Phoenix (39:37.705)

Yeah, I saw it. And that was different. Like I saw, so it was like the traumas would play out. Things I had totally forgot about, I didn’t even remember them. But they literally lifted off of my body and went, it went to like a dust. One by one, it was like 60 abuses, like sexual abuses. I didn’t even remember. It’s just one by one. And that’s when I started throwing up.

was after that.

Sam Believ (40:09.249)

Do you ever miss Purge when you work with mushrooms? Or some kind of physical release?

Phoenix (40:17.8)

I think that there is always a physical release in some way, even if you run into the bathroom. You know, some people may throw up, but it’s very rare people are throwing up just because we have them fast for quite a long time before we do our ceremonies. But yeah, like as far as like the purging, it’s not that I miss the purging because we also do rabe in the beginning. So people are like purging and it’s not in there. It’s…

people are purging the whole time in different ways. It’s just not necessarily the way that always happens during Aya. And so, I don’t like throwing up. I really, really don’t like throwing up, but I will go to the bathroom. We can blow our noses, we can cry. I feel like there’s just so many different ways to purge. So purging is always happening. It’s just different.

Sam Believ (40:51.777)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (41:10.977)

I yawn a lot when I’m working with mushrooms, like a lot a lot. I think that’s also a form of purging, right?

Phoenix (41:15.143)

Me too.

Me too. So the yawning for me happens in the beginning when it’s activating. That’s how I know it’s coming. I just started yawning. You know, either my foot is twitching a little bit or either I start excessively yawning. And I feel like that is your body’s way of sending more oxygen to your brain. And so, but yawning is totally one of the signals for me. A really big signal.

Sam Believ (41:46.977)

Let’s talk a little bit about.

Phoenix (41:47.239)

But I love it because I feel.

Sam Believ (41:51.051)

Let’s talk a little bit about facilitation, the life of a facilitator. And, you know, it’s not all rainbows and butterflies, right? There’s sometimes there, you know, we, our groups on average are 25 people and generally it’s 25 beautiful people. But occasionally there is one or two like very difficult people, like people who maybe not necessarily believe in the work with the medicines. They kind of came because somebody forced them.

What are your experiences with difficult people? And just generally, you know, what complaints do you have about the facility life? Let’s just vent a little bit here.

Phoenix (42:35.077)

Okay, complaint.

My biggest would be when someone says they didn’t feel anything.

yet they were like laying in the dirt or crying or just something like you just be like, are you sure? You know, or, or I tell people because I do kind of similar to how Aya does where after the first, do they do like windows? Like when you guys do Aya, like after the first window closes, you allow people to come in and like get another dose of it. Okay. So.

Sam Believ (43:16.033)

Yeah, yeah, we do two or three cups.

Phoenix (43:19.812)

Okay, so I do that with the mushroom ceremonies. But I got that from Aya because I didn’t want people to ever be able to say, I didn’t have enough, but I didn’t also get the opportunity to get more. And so in my ceremonies, we say, hey, okay, the first window is closed. Basically after it’s activated, people are kind of getting ready to start their journeys. I’ll ask, does anybody feel like they need a bump up? My bump ups are 0 .5. So I have like a bunch of bump ups.

And if you don’t say nothing, you don’t get it. And so the people who don’t say anything, I always tell them, I was like, don’t come to me later and say you didn’t feel anything. If when I offered it to you, you didn’t speak up because maybe that was a part of your journey and a part of your lesson.

Phoenix (44:10.918)

So that part I don’t like when people don’t speak up in the process, but they want to say something later. I don’t have it happen much anymore because in the beginning, that’s part of my rules. It’s like, don’t come to me later and say that you didn’t have enough if you didn’t open your mouth and ask for more. I’m not going to want to hear it because it was your responsibility to say what you need, to ask for what you need. And I’m telling y ‘all you have.

Sam Believ (44:11.201)

So,

Phoenix (44:38.694)

the opportunity to ask for what you need. So I’m not going to listen to you in a, you know, in your job form. When you fill out your information about what happened, I’m going to bypass that. And I’m going to say, well, you didn’t ask what you needed. Maybe that was a part of your lesson. You know, I think that was, that’s my big.

Sam Believ (44:57.185)

That’s a big one for me as well. I don’t know if you do word circles or sharing circles in your facilitation work, but when people start their share by saying, yeah, I didn’t really connect. And then they go ahead and do a five minute share about this amazingly beautiful process of stuff coming up and the realizations and the processes in their body and purging and like so much. But it’s because all of that time.

Phoenix (45:04.645)

Yep.

Sam Believ (45:26.273)

they were expecting some specific kind of kaleidoscopic vision and it didn’t come. It’s like people don’t see forest through the trees, you know, they just get, they super focus on this one specific type of experience and when it doesn’t come, they get frustrated even though they got so much more. You know, this saying, you know, ayahuasca gives you what you need, not what you want. I don’t know if you noticed that with mushrooms as well.

Phoenix (45:31.831)

Thank you.

Yeah.

Phoenix (45:54.98)

It’s exactly.

Sam Believ (45:55.009)

But what else, what else maybe?

Phoenix (45:57.796)

Yeah, but we say the exact same thing. It gives you what you need, not what you want. And so I think another would be people focusing on what happens sometimes is people will focus on other people’s expression of their journey. And they’re like, I want to be like that. But the reason why they’re not getting so deeply into their journeys because they’re so focused on watching everyone else. And sometimes I’d be like, you need to close your eyes. You know, like close your eyes and go inward and focus on yourself because sometimes when you’re just looking around,

you know, trying to see what everybody else is doing, you kind of cut off the signal, in a sense, to your own journey. Because you’re just being nosy. Now, at the end, you know, people, we create our spaces where people can walk around, and it’s very, you know, twinkly and fairy tale -like, and they get to go out in the large, grassy area and just stretch and move. So ours is not just like you say in one space, kind of like a lot of Aya ceremonies are, but…

towards the middle and the end that people have gone through some of the harder parts. They’re able to like walk around and play and do different things. It’s still silent because we found that that transfers a lot when people start talking and it also cuts the signal when people start talking. But I haven’t had a whole lot of complaints. I would say maybe four in 450 people. I might have gotten four.

Complaints that didn’t get those until I asked for a review and say is there anything that you think we should know? You know it’s always like in my review that you didn’t say so I haven’t gotten bad reviews, but it was just you know a no well You know I didn’t get Attention like I felt like I was more advanced than the people that were there You know something that has to do with like ego. I’ve gotten something like that before Or somebody who doesn’t realize that

I was there working on them, but they didn’t know it was me during the process. Cause I float around and a few other of my staff members, all of my staff can’t touch or connect with people. They can only like serve in a sense, tissue, juice, drinks. So if you’re not a facilitator, you can’t actually physically touch people. So it’s only like two or three of us that can physically touch you. So if you were touched, and this is just,

Phoenix (48:23.457)

because you have to be trained to know what you’re doing and be aware. So we know people aren’t getting in trouble or doing the wrong things. But yeah, I’ve gotten three things. I can tell you my, I think it’s four. One was someone was like, I wish I would have gotten more time with Phoenix. People say I’m like her because they don’t know I’m reading the reviews. They think it’s just going to someone else. And I was like, well, you weren’t there to be with me.

You know, like just different things or the type of people that were there were not on my level. I’m more advanced. Be like, you don’t know who is there because everybody comes in their sweatpants for a sleepover. So you don’t know who’s what or who’s at what level. I don’t expose who’s coming. So no, no one knows who anyone is. Another one is the same, like not feeling like they got enough medicine or nothing happened, but.

the group they’ll tell this whole story about what happened same as you. Like that doesn’t make sense I got you on video telling us your whole story about what happened and I think last would be…

Phoenix (49:40.255)

I don’t know, I can’t think of the last one, but I know I’ve gotten those three. I haven’t gotten a lot. Just because I try to get ahead of it in advance. Anything that I felt like was an issue or could be an issue, I’ve changed my program around or my protocols around to make sure that those things don’t happen. So we’ve adjusted quite a bit over the years just to make sure that, hey, we getting ahead of these things.

this doesn’t happen. I think I’ve had one girl who said that she was scared of somebody else, but I think that just had to do with her. And then maybe noise, like it’s too noisy and hearing people hack or cry or whatever. I’ve heard that before, but you’re in a room full of 25, 30 people, you’re hear something.

Sam Believ (50:24.799)

Mm -hmm.

Sam Believ (50:33.569)

Yeah, it’s not easy. It’s not easy to work with psychedelics and all kinds of energies come out and they sometimes get projected on you. But generally, I think we’re at 420 something five star Google reviews now, but we only have two one star reviews. And they’re from people that did not stay till the end. They encountered something difficult. They just kind of…

ran away, you know, in a way because we have our retreats are two ceremonies or four ceremonies or six or ten. So they didn’t stay the entire retreat. But a lot of there’s a lot of people that come with very difficult stories and they can be challenging in the beginning. But by the end of the retreat, everyone is just glowing and flowing. And it’s so satisfying to see. But it’s those people that kind of like gave up and then they they they they have a negative opinion.

Phoenix (51:07.992)

Thank you.

Sam Believ (51:31.329)

but it’s kind of like, you know, the saying, you can lead the horse to water, but you cannot make it drink. And it’s not just the medicine part, it’s also the work that you have to do afterwards. And we talk to people a lot about that. So let’s talk about that a little bit, maybe. What do you think about, how do you describe this? How do you teach people about the work that they need to do after the ceremony and integration? What is your approach?

Phoenix (51:36.06)

can’t drink. Yeah.

Phoenix (51:57.372)

So our ceremonies, our retreats of course are longer, but our ceremonies are two days. So the first day is a ceremony, the second day is integration and like different workshops that we do. So I think the integration part is so, so important because you have to know how to integrate those things into your everyday life that you went through. Otherwise it’s kind of like you went to a ceremony or a retreat, but what do you do with it?

You know, like, what do I do with this now? Right? How do I integrate all these new things and all this new information, this new found life into my life? How do I weave it in? And so we really do a lot of work on that. My last ceremony I did, I ended up coaching probably 15 of them, like 30 minute coaching sessions for four weeks, just to make sure that they were ready to be able to go and do these things on their own.

So they needed a lot of coaching after the ceremony, which is integration for me. The coaching integration is pretty much the same. Let’s see. And then we do an integration group session a month after or three weeks to a month after where we bring people back. We talk about their experiences, how they’ve been incorporating things into their life, what they’ve gone through, what they’ve done. And so that has also been really, really helpful and healing. And then we have, you know, additional.

things that we can provide for them after that. But I think it’s probably the most important thing that you can do after a ceremony. And if you miss out on that part, I think that that puts you at a disadvantage, for sure.

Sam Believ (53:41.601)

I think mushrooms give you a lot of information as well and ayahuasca also it gives you like homework and the difference with ayahuasca that I never had with mushrooms is sometimes when you come back too soon and it didn’t do the homework it will then sort of tough love you into it and be like you know why are you back so soon why didn’t you do anything so it’s kind of like self -managing in a way that you know if you don’t do the work it will be like

give you a very hard experience. It happened to me once and it was very surprising. What do you think about the plant spirits and like what do you think is it that that talks to you through those medicines? What is your paradigm or worldview on how psychedelics work?

Phoenix (54:29.72)

I don’t have the whole entire view outside of my assumptions, which is everything is connected together. You know, when you think about the fungi and you know, that network that’s underground, it kind of looks very similar to the network in our brains. It looks very similar to the internet network when you look at it on a grid. You know, like all of it looks very similar to how it’s connecting everything together. And I feel like if…

this fungi is like connecting trees on one side of the world all the way to the other, that’s some pretty powerful stuff. You know, so I just feel like everything is connected on top of feeling like you’re coming face to face with yourself, you know, with the higher version of yourself or the past life versions of yourself or the current versions of yourself. Like you’re really like with no ego.

with no emotion, you’re literally seeing everything as it is. Who you are, what you’ve been through, what you’re going through, you’re seeing it without the filter of, without the lens that we naturally use, which can have maybe some ego attached to it. I feel like your emotions are wide open. I feel like.

your thoughts, your feelings, everything is open and it’s real. It’s not able to be manufactured in those moments. And so I just, I call it coming face to face with yourself, but that self is also connected to everything around in the universe. So that’s my feelings on it.

Sam Believ (56:12.225)

That’s a good way to explain it. Phoenix, let’s start to slowly wrap up. We’re almost at an hour. Can you tell us a little bit about your book?

Phoenix (56:22.742)

Yeah, my book is called Redefining Strong, A Journey to Finding Yourself, True Healing and Spiritual Recalibration. I wrote it a couple years ago. It’s more of like, it’s my journey. So it’s like, autobiography slash workbook slash, it’s like a directional, like it gives you healing tips through my story. So I use myself as an example and the things that I’ve gone through in my life to show people how to get to from.

point A to point B with some of the techniques that I used. So that’s how my book was written, which is really cool. It’s really easy to read. And yeah, so that was my first book. So it’s been really effective. I still have a lot of copies of it. People still are loving it. So I’m proud of it.

Sam Believ (57:11.937)

Where can people find your book? Is there an audiobook version?

Phoenix (57:13.426)

Mm.

No, but I am doing the audiobook version this year. So that is actually on my list of things to finish because a few people have asked me that same question. I was like, yeah, just do it yourself. I like your boys. Read it. And I was like, OK, I’m going to go ahead and.

Sam Believ (57:31.841)

That’s great. I like to joke, I don’t know how to read because I stopped reading books and switched completely to audiobooks. It’s just so much more convenient. So where can people find your book and where can people find more about yourself?

Phoenix (57:47.315)

My book is on Amazon, but also my new website should be launching in the next week, which will be phoenixwhite .net, but you can also find me on this thesacretselestial .com, as well as my Instagram has the most current updates of everything that I’m doing. My Instagram is at Phoenix White, and that’s the main places that I would say to find me, is those two.

Sam Believ (58:15.809)

Great, Phoenix. Well, thanks a lot for coming on the podcast. I think it was entertaining and I think that people will learn something from it.

Phoenix (58:23.278)

Yeah, for sure. Wait, where are you guys located?

Sam Believ (58:27.969)

We’re located one hour south of Medellin, Colombia.

Phoenix (58:31.856)

Ooh, I haven’t been there yet. I might have to come to a ceremony out there with you guys. Yeah.

Sam Believ (58:36.001)

You might, you might, but I was going to invite you, but you said you don’t want to do ayahuasca anymore, so…

Phoenix (58:41.65)

No, it’s not that I don’t want to do it, it’s that I don’t need to do it. You know? Thank you. Yeah, you were invited to one of our ceremonies if you ever ever out this way and get you.

Sam Believ (58:45.185)

I’m just kidding. You are invited.

Sam Believ (58:53.493)

Where are you? I think you’re kind of all over the place, right? You’re nomadic in your ceremonial.

Phoenix (58:57.266)

Yeah, we travel and we do our ceremonies in different places. So the next one will be in San Diego in September. Our retreat will be in Mexico in November. But we might need to come out to where you guys are and do something.

Sam Believ (59:15.745)

Come to Columbia for sure. The only problem I think legally wise ayahuasca is very legal, but mushrooms are sort of in the gray zone. So I hope it changes. Ayahuasca is legal when you have an indigenous shaman that has a special paperwork. So cool, Phoenix. Thank you so much. And it was a pleasure.

Phoenix (59:17.443)

Yeah.

Phoenix (59:26.851)

Wait, ayahuasca is legal there?

Phoenix (59:34.129)

Okay.

Phoenix (59:41.52)

Yes, nice meeting you. Thank you so much.

In this episode of AyahuascaPodcast.com host Sam Believ has a conversation with Adrian Lozano

We touch upon subjects of social anxiety, microdosing vs SSRI, inner child work and more.

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to

http://www.lawayra.com

Find more about Adrian at http://www.lozanoflows.com

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:02)

welcome to ayahuascapodcast .com. As always with you the host Sam Biliyev. Today we’re interviewing Adrian Lozano. ⁓ Adrian hosts transformative retreats. He facilitates ceremonies and supports individuals with microdosing and integration. He’s a plant medicine facilitator and microdosing coach. ⁓ In his work, he incorporates modalities such as parts work, breath work, meditation and somatic awareness. ⁓ Adrian, welcome to the podcast.

adrian (00:32)

Thank you, Sam, for having me on. Pleasure to be here.

Sam Believ (00:35)

Adrian, ⁓ before we begin, ⁓ tell us a little bit about yourself and what in your life brought you to work with psychedelics.

adrian (00:46)

Yeah, ⁓ so both my parents are from Mexico, so I was born and raised in Southern California. ⁓ And growing up with parents that are very strict Catholics, I had a lot of, I grew up with a lot of suppression, shame, guilt, and that led into having anxiety, depression. And then as an adult, ⁓ as a young adult, I would also drink alcohol to cope with all of that. So.

adrian (01:14)

Before I came to plant medicine, I was really struggling with my mental health. I felt really lost and disconnected. ⁓ So it was actually Ayahuasca. ⁓ One of my friends invited me to a ceremony with Ayahuasca and that was like my first dive into all of this. ⁓ But it was kind of a lot to come into. I didn’t have any foundation, support, any kind of grounding. ⁓ So then, you know, working a lot with Aya, but then kind of have worked with other.

adrian (01:43)

modalities and therapy and done a lot of integrating. That’s kind of where I realized that there was a lot of generational trauma that I had that I wasn’t aware of. And through my own process of healing, I realized that these medicines really have a big capacity to heal, to transform, to wake up our inner strengths and have decided to commit my path to being of service to others.

Sam Believ (02:08)

Thank you for sharing your story. I realized that you say, you you want to do ayahuasca and obviously it changed your life, but it was a difficult experience. And I believe maybe from what I’m hearing, did the retreat you went to, what kind of ceremony was it? Was it just, ⁓ just the one standalone ceremony, no support or was there some kind of container with a group therapy or maybe did they provide you any integration support and stuff like that?

adrian (02:37)

Yeah, good question. So actually, it was a community from Columbia that came down. It was like, they had, it was a big ceremony. It was a retreat. It was here in the United States, about 40 people. But no, that, and that’s exactly why I think it was so hard for me because I had two ceremonies. ⁓ I felt all this connection, interconnectedness. ⁓ And then every, you know, cause no one was from here. Everyone left and all people that were there were from all over the United States. So.

adrian (03:06)

I had no community support at all and the weed started to grow back really fast. And actually, ⁓ after my first ceremony, ⁓ I feel like things got worse before they got better. But a big part of that was because I didn’t have any support, no community, but you know, they were coming from Columbia and then they left. And that was it.

Sam Believ (03:26)

Yeah, ⁓ the reason I’m asking that is because I’ve never had the ayahuasca outside of Colombia. ⁓ My plant medicine experience started here and I was going to those more sort of, let’s say, traditional indigenous style ceremonies where you kind of, you come over, you bring your own mattress, ⁓ bring your own bucket and you find a spot and then you go get your medicine. They support you in the ceremony and after that you’re on your own. And I had the…

Sam Believ (03:55)

a couple experiences that were also pretty traumatic. I mean, they were all meaningful, but I just felt like once I was drinking in the jungle and I went to the bathroom and I started, my journey started very deep in the bathroom and I locked myself in the bathroom and they just left me there. So by the time I came back from this extremely deep experience, I was on my own in the bathroom. There was nobody in the house and I was like, yeah, it was terrible. So that kind of.

Sam Believ (04:22)

I brought it back to the work with the at my own retreat where we focus so much on number one, like when people arrive first 24 hours, there is no medicine is just talking, just getting to know each other and teaching them how to navigate their experience, how to ground themselves, you know, just and then building trust within the group, building trust with the facilitator so that they can actually when the time comes and Ayahuasca tries to dissolve your ego, you can actually let go. So, ⁓

Sam Believ (04:52)

But afterwards, ⁓ do I understand correctly that for now ⁓ you’re still a big fan of ayahuasca and you use it for your own self work still?

adrian (05:03)

Yeah, I’ve done most of my healing with ayahuasca and I’ve done a lot of my shadow work with it as well. Like you said, the trauma and ego, letting go, all that. But I still do sit with her from time to time. ⁓ But I work with mushrooms in my own practice and what I do. But yeah, I have a deep connection with ayahuasca.

Sam Believ (05:26)

It’s interesting because ⁓ in our work with ayahuasca, I only work with the shaman. ⁓ Even though I’ve been working with it for years now, I would never even consider serving it. However, I did serve mushrooms in kapo ceremonies back in the day, a long time ago. ⁓ Why do you think the barrier of entries is lower with mushrooms? The medicine is as strong, but what is it about it that…

Sam Believ (05:54)

makes it let’s say more approachable from a facilitator standpoint.

adrian (05:59)

Yeah, good question. Cause yeah, even though I have a deep relationship with Aya, I have no interest in serving their medicine. ⁓ I think for me it’s because ayahuasca has deep relationship with South America and with wisdom from that area. So I think, you know, having that indigenous wisdom, that respect, the reciprocity and all of that is important for anyone that’s serving Aya. Like they, I would not feel comfortable.

adrian (06:28)

sitting with someone who has not actually been to the Amazon to work with that medicine or has not sat with it in that capacity. ⁓ And with mushrooms, it’s different, with mushrooms, they grow everywhere. And, you know, they’re a lot more accessible and they kind of, there’s no specific area of the world that they come from. And, you know, a lot of different cultures have worked with mushrooms, but with ayahuasca, I think it’s more, has ties to South America that I think also has just a level of respect of.

adrian (06:57)

those who have really learned and sat with that medicine and having that same ⁓ integrity feels different than, you know, someone like myself who works with mushrooms. And I don’t necessarily have to have gone to the Amazon or South, you know, in that capacity, but I have my own deep connection with mushroom, which feels to me more in alignment.

Sam Believ (07:17)

Mm -hmm. So, yeah, I totally agree with that. Ayahuasca just seems to be a bit more location. It’s tied to a certain location. And when it’s out of there, it almost kind of loses its power in a way. ⁓ But going back to your first Ayahuasca experience or first Ayahuasca experiences, when you said it was pretty difficult, it was still very life -changing, but pretty difficult. Now as an experience facilitator and obviously having attended

Sam Believ (07:47)

many ayahuasca ceremonies and working with mushrooms. What would have you done differently? Like what would you tell those facilitators now? Like what should they do to help you not have an experience that is so, let’s say confusing?

adrian (08:06)

I think preparation and having practices that are going to allow you to ground, like I didn’t have any practices before or any spaces as well. Like community is medicine, having, you know, a safe community where you can process or integrate or working with someone for me, it was therapy. So after a couple of ceremonies, I finally got to therapy and that the things started changing, but I had no support. I thought that this was going to do all the work for me. And I actually was bypassing a lot of the actual integration work. So having the awareness of.

adrian (08:36)

what integration is, knowing that the ceremony begins after the ceremony ends for as far as like integrating and being able to really make space to process all of the intelligence of grandmother and be able to sit with it. So that does take time. And I don’t think I didn’t have that education or knowledge to do that. So really having practices are going to support you having time with yourself, connection with yourself so that you can integrate.

adrian (09:04)

and really be able to weave in the magic of the medicine into your day -to -day life.

Sam Believ (09:13)

I love this phrase that you use, spiritual bypassing. We all met people that have done 10, 20, 50 ceremonies but never changed because they never did the work. Talk to us a little bit about this spiritual bypassing, how it looks like, how can people ⁓ prevent it from happening to themselves.

adrian (09:37)

Yeah, good question. Cause that is what was happening to me. I didn’t realize that I had to go to a couple of ceremonies to figure out what was going on. But for me, I thought that I was, I was healed after my first ayahuasca ceremony. I was like, ⁓ okay. Like I’m good. I don’t need to do any work. And you know, me healing was going to ceremony. ⁓ Well, it was healing to be in ceremony. That was not me doing the work. And I was kind of, I didn’t want to look at everything that was under there, but I was, I went to like,

adrian (10:07)

love and light. I was like, ⁓ everything is good. I’m great. I’m, you know, I feel amazing. Like not realizing that there’s a lot of shit under there. So for me, it was like really being able to accept my own shadows, my own trauma, my own parts of me that I reject. ⁓ Once I was able to really look at that and be like, actually everything is not okay. There’s a lot here and I can’t just skip it and be like, okay. I’m, I’m healed and I’m good. And you know, thinking that,

adrian (10:37)

me going to the next ceremony was going to be able to get back to that place because that’s what was going on. I went to ceremony. I thought I was great. And then the magic wore off. The afterglow wore off and the weed started to grow back really fast. And I was back in my same bullshit. Excuse the language, ⁓ but after and then I would go back to ceremony and I would feel great again. And then same thing would happen. So then I was like, something’s not happening. Something’s going on.

adrian (11:04)

And that’s when I had another ceremony when the grandmother told me, ⁓ Hey, you’re, we keep telling you the same thing over and over again. And she’s like, I don’t want to see you in ceremony again until you go do the work. And then it was a very challenging experience. It was what I perceived to be like an ego, the solution experience, but I thought I was dying and I was resisting and I did not want to let go. And then I finally did. And I came back and that’s when she was like, okay, you’re going to get another chance.

adrian (11:34)

do the work. And to me, that meant starting therapy, ⁓ practicing yoga, meditation, ⁓ journaling, and I was not in ceremony for a while. And then that’s when I saw the healing started to happen. I saw it really going inward and looking at who I am, where I come from, all the things that made me who I am. And that really was when I started shifting energetically inside and out and people could, after a while they were able to tell that.

adrian (12:04)

And I could tell that and it felt very different. So really it was actually committing to my own healing and being able to look inside and be like, kind of take a notice of what is really here and what’s really there. What are my triggers? What are my reactions? Why do I behave in this way? And it was kind of like having to undo, like kind of be really curious and compassionate for who I was and where I was going.

Sam Believ (12:30)

It’s very interesting because I think your experience is very similar to mine because in the beginning when I really started working with ayahuasca regularly my goal was to heal my depression and what you call an afterglow it would take away my pain and my depression for two to four weeks at a time. ⁓ And meanwhile in those periods of time I was able to actually like do stuff.

Sam Believ (13:00)

You can call it work, but I think my main reason for my depression was lack of direction in life. ⁓ So in that period of time, I would find myself taking courses, learning stuff and sort of progressing till eventually in one of the ceremonies, it kind of showed me like, you know, here’s your purpose. ⁓ And since then, I kind of, so in a way for me, I did the work, ⁓ but in a way for me, Ayahuasca kind of gave it to me. And even though it took more than a year.

Sam Believ (13:29)

for the intention to become a reality because I’ve been asking what am I here for, what am I here for? And then it finally told me which it just happened to be was ayahuasca. ⁓ Paradoxically so, that’s what led me into starting my own retreat. But it is interesting that you also describe this experience where you have ayahuasca tell you like, why don’t you do the homework? I’ve had one similar and it felt like…

Sam Believ (13:58)

It was like, why are you back so soon? And it felt angry. It felt like I did something wrong. And then I had a terrible trip. It’s like, you want to disrespect me? I’m going to show you. ⁓ So it is interesting how I was getting away self -governing where I think it would be really hard to abuse it. ⁓ And yeah, the two steps forward, one step back, you know, you…

adrian (14:00)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (14:26)

You go, you get this after glow and you feel like your life is forever amazing. And then you kind of go back a little bit and you need to do self work and maybe go back into the ceremony and go a little bit further. But then in my experience, like years later, you realize, wow, your life has really changed, but it’s, it’s really hard to tie it to one event. But there’s a lot of people. They come to the ceremony and they’re like, yeah, ⁓ give me that magic bill so I can forever be good and never need to do anything about it. ⁓ and yeah, unfortunately it doesn’t work.

Sam Believ (14:56)

And so you basically went from just this approach of like there’s a lot of time where people first work with ayahuasca, they kind of become like, ayahuasca is everything and it’s going to fix everything for me. And then over time, as you kind of educate yourself, you approach more of a holistic approach and start, sorry, you adopt more of a holistic approach and start combining different practices. So what is…

Sam Believ (15:23)

What is that perfect formula for you at the moment in both ayahuasca work, mushroom work, ⁓ yoga meditation, what other modalities that you use and what is the formula? ⁓ What do you think works best?

adrian (15:41)

Yeah, and that’s, you know, it’s different for everyone, but honestly for me, the one thing that has been my greatest integration tool has been ongoing therapy. Okay, froze.

adrian (15:56)

Can you hear me?

Sam Believ (15:58)

Yeah, I kind of lost you for a second. Don’t worry, we’ll cut it out. ⁓ Just start replying again.

adrian (16:05)

Yeah. So my, for me, my biggest form of integration has been ongoing therapy. And I’ve been doing it for about five or six years. That’s been like the biggest thing that I’ve been committed to. ⁓ and then also, you know, being in nature, I just moved to the mountains. ⁓ So really, you know, reconnecting with Pachamama, being connected to the earth and being able to make space for that. Cause think before I was so disconnected from all of it. So nature is my biggest, also teacher, my biggest guide. So.

adrian (16:34)

being able to reconnect with that movement as well, being able to move my body, being able to, you know, even if I don’t feel great, going for a walk also helps me support and like integrate. Yoga is also one of the things that I’m getting back into, but has been really helpful because before I used to struggle with a lot of anxiety and with yoga, learning how my body can, can slow down with the breath, knowing how I can move energy. And that to me has been really grounding for me. I also work with HAPE.

adrian (17:03)

as well. So I love working with HAPE. It’s been a great kind of part of my practice to help me ground, to connect, to clear energy. ⁓ I would say those are some of my things that I do currently for myself. And also, ⁓ community. Community is medicine too. I’ve realized that we don’t have to do this by ourselves, and we shouldn’t. So I’m very intentional about those that I do. ⁓

Sam Believ (17:19)

So.

adrian (17:32)

and I do let in and also be vulnerable and then connect with others that are on this path too.

Sam Believ (17:40)

So basically paying more attention to your body and doing things that bring you back to your body and just being conscious. I think you talk about it, about how to live in your heart and not in your head and kind of introspecting. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?

adrian (17:58)

Yeah. So like I was saying about anxiety, like I used to live from my head and that to me felt like a prisoner where I was always thinking about what the next person is going to say about me, what they’re doing, when all of that. So it was really. Just like the like not being able to be in the present moment because I was always like trying to figure things out or trying to work things out in my mind that I realized I wasn’t being present. So working with medicine.

adrian (18:28)

has allowed me to really go down a couple inches and live more from my heart space. And I really tune into that. Like, how do I feel around certain people? How does this feel in alignment with what my values are? Does it feel like I’m living with integrity or being at a place with, you know, that brings me joy. A lot of it has been like being able to connect with my inner child. And that to me, like being able to live in that space, live from the heart, live like my inner child liked to, has allowed me to.

adrian (18:57)

live a lot more compassionate, a lot more fulfilling life than had I been living in my head where I was. And now I see that with a lot of my clients that I work with of how a lot of us do operate from our headspace and how, you know, our mind can tell us things and we are not our thoughts, but a lot of us don’t know that because we’re so programmed or that’s what we know how to be in. So being able to work with medicine allows us to tap into that a little bit more.

Sam Believ (19:28)

So when you say connecting to your inner child, a lot of people will be like, what is he talking about? How does it look practically? ⁓ Where does it come from? Does it come through medicine or maybe it’s some form of special meditation that you do? So for somebody who is listening and they’re wondering what does it mean, can you give some practical advice?

adrian (19:54)

Yeah, so for me, inner child work is really, you know, being able to connect with the little version of us, the younger version of us. A lot of times that’s also where the trauma is too. So it could be, you know, for me, when I started really focusing on this path, looking at certain parts of my life from my childhood that were, you know, traumatic and being able to really sit with those parts of me, being able to integrate it, being able to bring compassion and know.

adrian (20:22)

let my inner child know, my little me, ⁓ that those things that happened to him were not his fault and there’s nothing wrong with him. ⁓ And, you know, even apologize to him. I’m sorry that had to happen to you. I’m sorry that the adults in your life didn’t have the capacity to really show you the love that you deserve and being able to tell him that. ⁓ And that to me was really healing in a way because I needed to hear that. And I still need to hear that. My inner child still has to hear that I’m here for him, that I love him.

adrian (20:51)

that he’s, you know, he’s there. And I feel like when I can tap into my inner child, I tap into creativity. I tap into presence, ⁓ playfulness, and be able to live again from the heart where we can see things more at all, just like children can. We can get back into that childlike state as adults as well. We still have that inner child. Like if you put Legos out, I’m going to play with them and I’m going to have fun and it’s going to be amazing. I’m just going to forget about the world. That’s what for me has been like.

adrian (21:20)

reconnecting to parts of myself, like the inner artist, that I didn’t, as an adult, I wasn’t doing things for play or creativity, because I was just like very like, okay, I’m an adult, now I gotta act like an adult. ⁓ And realizing that that’s when I felt more disconnected. Once I started to bring more playfulness into my life and fun, that’s when I start really living a life that feels more joyful for me.

Sam Believ (21:44)

Yeah, play is very important and we need more of that. ⁓ I’m a big fan of inner child work. What we do at Lawara actually, before the ceremony we give people breath work and meditation to put them in the right mental state. And one of the meditations we do is inner child meditation that focuses you on that. And I think it kind of primes a lot, lots of people’s experiences.

Sam Believ (22:11)

to go and meet that in a child and it’s very profound. Another one of those is forgiveness. ⁓ Another thing you talk about is you mentioned it earlier, shadow work. ⁓ How does that look for you?

adrian (22:29)

Yeah, and that’s a question. It’s a lot of what I work with my clients too. I feel like shadow work is also connected with inner child work. Cause like I said, it’s looking back at events or traumas and things that we might have. So for me, shadow work is really being able to connect with the parts of ourselves that we reject, the parts of ourselves that we might not want to look at. They’re there, the parts that, you know, society might deem as not worthy or whatever it is like the shame, the guilt.

adrian (22:58)

the ⁓ disappointment and all of that that we have within ourselves, but we might not be able to be connected with it and then it will manifest in other ways. It might come out as behaviors or actions or thoughts or different things. That’s what was happening in my life. I wasn’t connected with my shadow, with my trauma, and it would manifest into depression, into anxiety, into…

adrian (23:25)

⁓ drinking and, and trying to escape. And once I really sat down and I was working with a practitioner and we were able to go back in my childhood and really see things that affected me. And I didn’t know they affected me and even generational trauma as well. And it was really difficult work. Like it’s not for the faint of heart at all to be able to come face to face with parts of ourselves that we don’t want to look at, ⁓ but.

adrian (23:53)

the only way to heal it is to feel it. And I found that once I integrated my shadow, I became more, once I brought it to the light, if you will, ⁓ I felt more complete. And that part of me is still there. There are parts in my life where I kind of forget about it and then it comes back and creeps. And really it’s about doing a dance with our shadow self and knowing that that is a part of us too. And that part of us needs love as well.

Sam Believ (24:23)

Is that what you mean when you say parts work in your bio it mentioned parts work or it’s a different thing?

adrian (24:31)

Yeah, it’s part works too, yeah, exactly. By being able to connect with the different parts of ourselves. Shadow is one of them.

Sam Believ (24:39)

Yeah, that’s shadow work is something that I’ve heard about and I even interviewed the guest specifically on it, but I think I it’s a hard concept to wrap your head around. It’s kind of like you have this many different versions of you inside of you that you need to sort of make peace with. ⁓ But as yeah, I’m very curious about that maybe because my process never never took me there just as of now.

Sam Believ (25:09)

So let’s go back to the psychedelics. You work with mushrooms primarily and I’m sure you’re very experienced. What are your thoughts on macrodosing versus microdosing?

adrian (25:24)

Yeah, I mean, most of my work now revolves around microdosing and I’ve seen they both have their role in someone’s journey. I personally, if I were to go back, I would have loved to start off with microdosing before I’ve gone to ceremony. And I work with a lot of clients that are new to all of this. ⁓ And they asked me like, should I…

adrian (25:51)

microdose before macrodose and I always say yes because it allows you to gently work with the medicine mushrooms and then things so Allows you to build a connection to build trust a relationship and you can also do some inner work with it microdosing by itself is a very powerful tool and very powerful modality to to others I’ve seen people that have had great experiences with anxiety depression getting off the pharmaceuticals and

adrian (26:21)

with microdosing alone. It allows us to be more present with ourselves, more connected and be more in tune and also can regulate our nervous system. And it is also more accessible to people because we don’t have to go to a ceremony, a retreat. We don’t have to fly out anywhere. You can do it in your normal day to day. You’re not really having to go on a long journey. And I find that…

adrian (26:46)

Microdosing can help bring ceremony to our day to day lives. Intentional microdosing, of course, you have to do with intention and be respectful and have, you know, the right framework to work with it. And I do tell people like, well, microdosing is very effective. ⁓ Also knowing its place as well. And it’s good for the here and now and being more in a body and being less in the mind, ⁓ but for the deep lifting, looking at trauma, looking at like the big heavier.

adrian (27:16)

that’s more suitable for a macrido or a ceremony. And I do let people know that as well.

Sam Believ (27:23)

You mentioned pharmaceuticals. Do you have any experience, ⁓ you know, SSRIs versus microdosing of mushrooms? What’s better and how is there a comparison between two?

adrian (27:40)

Yeah, I personally have not been on SSRIs, but I work with a lot of people who have. ⁓ And I’ll say this, SSRIs, they can and they do save lives. If someone is really struggling and they’re in a really difficult situation, they can save their lives. But it’s where then, you know, we start becoming dependent on it. And that’s what happens with SSRI. You can’t just go off of it. You have to wean off of it. And sometimes,

adrian (28:09)

When life happens, they up the dose. ⁓ So, you know, life is going to be happening and then something, you know, drastic might happen. And then the doctors will say, okay, we’ll give you some more and they give you more. And then years go by and then you just upping the dose every time something happens. ⁓ So from what I’ve worked with, with my clients, they tell me like, it doesn’t really solve anything. It just kind of puts a bandaid on things. And there’s also side effects. They have.

adrian (28:38)

you know, loss of interest, they don’t have much motivation. It kind of numbs you in a way. They even they have problems with their libido. It starts affecting a lot. And I’ve even seen like with couples and they’re not being intimate and it starts to like bringing other problems and then they need more medications to help, you know, mask the side effects. So then it’s like, OK, we’re just putting on medications that they’re not really addressing the root cause of what’s happening. ⁓ And with microdosing, it can do that.

adrian (29:07)

It allows us to be more present with what is and allows us to be more introspective so that we can look at things in a different way. And also we’re not becoming dependent on the medicine. You can pause at any time. You can stop at any time. ⁓ What SSRIs do is they inhibit our serotonin receptors. Psilocybin works with serotonin. So we’re getting a natural serotonin boost. So people are feeling their baseline is being raised. They’re able to feel more happier.

adrian (29:36)

and be more connected and more present with working with microdosing. And also we’re not doing it every single day because of the tolerance buildup with SSRIs. You are dependent on that every single day. You have to take that pretty much. And if you, if you stop, there could be consequences that so anyone that’s on it, they have to wean off of it with their pharmaceutical provider. So I just feel like working with the microdosing allows people to have.

adrian (30:05)

more control, more agency, more space within themselves as opposed to numbing it up.

Sam Believ (30:14)

It’s very applicable for us because as you know, ⁓ to come to an ayahuasca retreat, people need to quit antidepressants, you know, a few weeks in advance because there are adverse side effects. ⁓ How would you go about helping somebody get off antidepressants and instead replace it with microdosing of mushrooms? Do you have any protocols perhaps or any tips for the people in that position?

adrian (30:43)

Yeah, that’s actually a really good question, Brian, because that is true. Like with ayahuasca, people can’t be on SSRIs and that’s why mushrooms are more accessible as well for people that are on them. ⁓ And with anyone that comes to me that wants to start microdosing, I do let them know that this is going to be a process for them because they can’t, with microdosing, it’s a sub perceptual dose. So we’re not really feeling anything like going on a trip or anything. ⁓

adrian (31:11)

with SSRIs is it’s a blunt end. They might not feel it as much. So A, they might need a little bit higher dose. And then also I tell them like, I’m not a medical professional, so they have to work with their provider to have a plan to wean off of it, but they could microdose while they’re weaning off of it. ⁓ And most, for most people that are weaning off of it, they have a more supportive protocol, five days on, two days off with a little bit higher dose so that, and,

adrian (31:41)

I just talked to a client yesterday actually, who she’s been microdosing for a month now and she is now weeding off her SSRI. She’s done this before, but without microdosing, it was really hard for her. She said I was not okay and I had to go back on it. This time around, she’s like, I don’t feel a lot from the medicine, but I am able to wean off of it and I’m not having the same reaction that I had before. And I do feel more at peace and more calm.

adrian (32:11)

I was like, okay, great. Then keep doing it. And she, you know, so her, her plan is to eventually wean off of it completely. And is now using micro dosing to help support her where before she did that and it was, she was not okay. But obviously everyone’s different, ⁓ but I find that micro dosing can support those that are getting off of it and can help me off of it. And then with the awareness that they’re not because of the medicine that they’re on medication that they’re on, they’re not getting the full effects of the micro dosing.

adrian (32:40)

because they can’t feel the full effects of it. ⁓ And people know that. So knowing that, okay, it’s gonna be really trusting your own innate ability to heal and also with medicines and having patience as you’re coming off of this pharmaceutical.

Sam Believ (32:55)

So speaking of feeling it and not feeling it, have you ever personally had a microdosing experience that was more than that and you maybe had a bigger connection?

adrian (33:07)

Yeah, when I when I first started micro dosing I was not weighing it out and I would just like kind of eyeball it and I remember This is back when I lived in LA and I worked in LA. I took a little I just I would eyeball Okay, sure. I’ll take this and then I was in my office and I was like Feeling something. I’m like, crap. I was like that’s not a micro dose and then like I remember like wanting to scream like I was like I had a meeting and I was like, I like I don’t know how I can

adrian (33:37)

be doing this and it actually made it like my anxiety worse and I got really like triggered. ⁓ And so that’s when I realized like it is dangerous to microdose without precise weighing and having something that you know how much it is eyeballing it is not going to work. It needs to be, you know, a dosage that you know what it is. It has to be consistent. And yeah, so that happened. And I know now like not to do that anymore.

adrian (34:07)

So I was like, I have them weighed out, I know what it is, and I’m a lot more intentional about it.

Sam Believ (34:15)

I’ve had a similar experience once when I eyeballed my microdose. I don’t regularly microdose, but there were periods of time when I experimented with it. ⁓ And I just luckily saw I don’t work in the office. I work here in the countryside. And I just laid in the grass for a bit, cried a bit, and it made me feel much better. It’s interesting. Mushrooms make me cry a lot.

Sam Believ (34:42)

There’s something about it, but not like sad crying, but just like crying and some kind of release. ⁓ Let’s talk about breath work. You know, let’s say somebody is, they took a microdose and now they’re losing control and they’re about to scream. ⁓ Can breath work help them calm down and ease their anxiety?

adrian (35:06)

Yeah. Yeah. So that’s actually one of the biggest tools that I utilize with my clients and also with my own self. Like the breath has been, ⁓ it’s the number one anchor. And I know even in ceremony, like sometimes when I’m sitting at ceremony and things start to get really intense, I’m usually not breathing. It’s very shallow. Or then I start to really connect, slow down, bring it back, come back into my body. And I’m like, ⁓ okay. I got this. So same thing with microdressing. I do tell people that like,

adrian (35:35)

If for whatever reason, if it feels too intense for you, start to do some breath, start to breathe, start to do some controlled breathing, cause it’s just slow down and that can, it’s going to help you come back. It’s going to help you kind of ground and center yourself. And also with breath work in particular, like I also, ⁓ practitioner for breath work, ⁓ I’ve seen breath work is a powerful modality where people can have a psychedelic experience on breath work as well. So it really just.

adrian (36:04)

tells us like how the breath is a tool as well. It’s its own medicine and we don’t have to get high on anything else. We can just use our own supply.

Sam Believ (36:13)

Any ⁓ specific breath work for somebody to calm the anxiety in the ceremony? Any specific routine or technique?

adrian (36:25)

Yeah, I think one that I’ve been practicing is ⁓ box breathing. So it’s like you do four counts of like inhale, four counts, holding for four counts, then exhale and kind of do like a box in that way. That one’s really good. I like these nouns for grounding, but no, in ceremony, I’m not going to remember all that. I just need to know to breathe. It’s like, just tell myself, like, are you breathing? Are you intentionally breathing? Taking three deep breaths can make all the difference.

Sam Believ (36:56)

And speaking of breathwork and speaking of anxiety, you have suffered with social anxiety, right? How was your healing journey from that specifically?

adrian (37:07)

Yeah, that was actually, that held me back the most in my life. And I realize now, like my dad used to have it. So I think it’s a generational thing. But before I, I remember my first ayahuasca ceremony, I was more afraid of introducing myself and my name than drinking the cup. When they were like doing this, ⁓ like everyone’s name, I was like, ⁓ crap, I’m almost next. I almost had like a heart attack.

adrian (37:36)

I don’t know what it was, I just had a lot of fear of being seen, fear of being able to speak my voice. So I did have a stutter as I grew up and I would often trip over my words. I wasn’t able to speak very clearly. And that to me was very debilitating, especially when I knew that I had a calling to be a leader or to be someone who was speaking in the room. So for me, working with Ayahuasca,

adrian (38:03)

really helped me kind of see that clearly. And I remember there was one ceremony where she’s like, okay, we’re gonna get rid of this social anxiety thing that you have. And I was like, really? It’s like, yeah. And then I just felt an energy and then I just started purging and I started like purging away my fear, my doubt, my insecurity and allowing it to be in the bucket. And I even like,

adrian (38:31)

there was this part of me that was doubting him. Like, is this, like, I don’t know if this is going to work. It’s like, ⁓ you still have some more fear in you. Okay, let’s get it out. And it just like, it was just incredible how like I was thinking it and she was working with me to purge this out of myself. And it has been a process. Like it wasn’t like immediately after that ceremony, I could speak in front of a cloud, a crowd, but then I started putting myself in situations where I could.

adrian (38:58)

you know, be able to speak, be able to talk to others, be able to project and really use my voice. And then I started seeing like, ⁓ actually this is not that bad. So I started practicing being able to do it. And now like, I can speak on this podcast. I can speak to people on social media. ⁓ I host retreats and I’m the one that’s kind of has to be able to speak with confidence and clearly, ⁓ otherwise people are not going to feel safe. ⁓ And so that really has been a big journey for me.

adrian (39:27)

And that’s why I really empathize people that have social anxiety, because I know how scary it is. And like I remember in college, ⁓ my communications class was the worst class that I just did not want to do it. And before, when I was in college, I would cope my social anxiety with alcohol. And then when I graduated, I would still cope with alcohol. So I would have to go to events or things and have to drink to get liquid courage. And then that turned into an alcohol problem where…

adrian (39:54)

I just felt like I needed to always do that, to be able to function and be able to do things. And then that’s kind of where I walked this command and started really being able to see like where my social anxiety was coming from. And I was able to look back and what happened was when I was young, ⁓ I grew up as Spanish speaker, native Spanish speaker. And then I was here in America. ⁓ So a lot of times when kids have like two languages, they have a lips. So I would kind of…

adrian (40:23)

not say my S’s correctly. And I remember there was a kid in elementary school who told me like, he’d make it funny. I was like, hey, why do you sound stupid? Like, why do you sound dumb? And from that moment, it just ingrained it into me that I sound stupid. And then, so from then on, ⁓ my biggest fear of social anxiety was I was afraid that everyone was thinking I sounded stupid.

adrian (40:49)

So it sounds silly, but it actually traumatized me and I didn’t realize it until afterwards. ⁓ And then, you know, doing this work, I’m like, actually, you know, you’re, you’re a smart intellectual being and your voice is medicine and being able to speak your truth is important. And that kind of allowed me to really work past that. And, you know, now being able to speak in front of others, which, which was again, like really hard and like not something that I would wish on anyone, but.

adrian (41:19)

Yeah, that’s kind of been my journey with social anxiety and speaking.

Sam Believ (41:23)

Thank you for sharing your journey. I think some people with social anxiety might find it very inspirational because it’s very important to be able to communicate and get your voice out there because otherwise you wouldn’t be here and nobody would hear you. It’s such an important thing to have that outlet. ⁓ And you’re not the first person to say they dread sharing more than they dread the ayahuasca itself because we do word circles at our retreat. So…

Sam Believ (41:51)

before we even start drinking medicine, people share their stories and a lot of people say exactly that. I would say two people per group on average would say, you know, they dread the sharing part and some are very, in a very debilitating way, ⁓ they barely speak and maybe they say one sentence or so. And for me, it’s beautiful to observe how over the week, let’s say if it’s a one week retreat, four ceremonies, as they work with the medicine, they start opening up and by the end of it,

Sam Believ (42:21)

they’re like, they’re just like going for it. And it’s hard to even imagine that they had social anxiety to begin with. So it’s a very quick fix, you know, in a way, of course, afterwards ⁓ it might come back and there is certain comfort they create with the group. But I’ve seen that psychedelics can be extremely helpful. ⁓ But talking about, you know, word circles and sharing, ⁓ it’s…

Sam Believ (42:49)

I believe it’s a big part of the healing that comes from the group. ⁓ Can you talk to us a little bit about that and what do you think is the importance of the community in the work with plant medicines?

adrian (43:01)

Yeah, I think it’s for me, it was very healing to be able to sit in a community, to sit in a circle, to be able to be vulnerable, be able to share my voice, to hear others, to hear their experiences and be able to connect. Like there are people that ask me like that. Some people do like a private ceremony and they’re ready to do that. But I prefer being in a group setting. It feels to me.

adrian (43:29)

ancestral, feels like this is what our ancestors used to do, sit in circle, sit in community, be able to process, to share, to integrate as a whole, because we’re not meant to be doing this alone. And when we able to, when we see the collective healing that happens in a ceremony, and we’re able to speak to that, be able to hold and to witness and to be held and to be seen, there’s a certain level of like magic that…

adrian (43:56)

You know, it’s unexplainable and I know you know what it means, ⁓ but it just, to me, community is medicine and I’ve healed. A lot of my healing has been from these retreats, from these circles, being able to connect with others. And even though, you know, I may not talk to them now, they have been an integral part of my life and I will always hold that.

Sam Believ (44:19)

Yeah, definitely. A lot of people come to our retreat and our groups are an average of about 25 people. And some of them are like, yeah, I don’t really, I’m not sure so many people and people like they really avoid people. And by the end of the week, they say that the people is the best part and the groups really bond. That’s another thing I observed with plant medicines. There is some kind of magic that happens as we all take off our masks and start to vulnerably share.

Sam Believ (44:48)

Plus, obviously, the magic of the plant medicines and then all of a sudden the bonding just starts to happen and it’s so quick that by the end of the week there are people that it feels like they’ve been friends forever. And I like this phrase, you know, the best way to make friends as an adult is to go to an ayahuasca retreat. What do you think about that? What’s the process? What’s the underlying process?

adrian (45:14)

I love that. I’ve never heard that before, but I have, you know, I’ve sat in many different circles and groups. I love learning from different facilitators, obviously if they’re aligned. And I’ve had different parts of my life where, you know, I’ll meet someone at a ceremony and I connect with them a lot more deeper than somebody I’ve known for a long time or somebody that I, you know, I can meet elsewhere because in this space we are authentic.

adrian (45:43)

We are real, we’re vulnerable, we’re raw. We see each other purge. That’s like really vulnerable and raw. Like, you know, when else can you feel like, you know, letting go of your traumas in front of somebody else and having, not being like ashamed of it. And I think being able to have that connection with someone in ceremony is really special because in ceremony, we are all energetically connected. We’re all in that space. If somebody cries, we feel their pain. If somebody laughs, we feel that joy.

adrian (46:13)

And same way, so that’s something that is a very special connection that I think you can only feel in that space. So it makes sense to be able to connect with someone very deeply. Now, friends that I’ve sat with in ceremony, like, I feel like they know a part of me that nobody else does and vice versa. I know a part of them that people won’t know.

Sam Believ (46:35)

I think in a way it’s like soldiers going to war together, you know, you’ve been through so much together, you rely on each other and that creates that extra quick bonding. So, but it’s beautiful to observe in our world, which is so disconnected and we’re so lonely. It’s beautiful to see people connecting and forming friendships. And one of my dream for the future of my, of Lawara, the project is to build a community. I like to say you come for Ayahuasca, you stay for the community.

Sam Believ (47:05)

have people just live here and work and be healthy and be productive and just be in the community and sit by the bonfire at night, kind of like in the good old days when we were still living in a tribal society.

adrian (47:18)

Yeah. And I like that. I don’t know. I was going to mention this, but I don’t know if you can relate to this, but I feel like you say you mentioned going to war and you know, at the, ⁓ when it gets intense and ceremony and like when I hear, you know, I have friends that I drink with and when, when I hear one of my friends purging, ⁓ I’m like, yes, like, ⁓ yes. Like I’m like really happy for them. And then I’m like, wait, in the real world, when someone’s like throwing up, are we celebrating it? But here we know that they’re healing.

adrian (47:49)

We know that they’re letting go of things and we’re able to cheer them on. Same things like when I have a really good purge, my friends will be like, ⁓ yeah, that was a good one. It’s funny.

Sam Believ (47:49)

Mm -hmm.

Sam Believ (48:00)

Yeah, because you understand that they’re not just vomiting, they’re actually releasing and you’re happy for them. Yeah, that’s another common one that people really celebrate each other’s processes. Well, Adrian, I think it ⁓ was an interesting and entertaining episode. ⁓ Before we wrap it up, is there any last recommendations or last words you want to tell to the audience and also where can they find more about you?

adrian (48:31)

Yeah, so to anyone listening to this, no matter where you’re at on your platelet message or where you’re just starting or you’ve been in ceremony, just a reminder that you are the medicine and it’s always within you. So, you know, always know that. ⁓ And where you can find me is my Instagram is lozano .flows or my website is lozanoflows .com.

Sam Believ (48:53)

You are the medicine Adrian and I’m going to tag your Instagram to the show notes and thank you so much. It was, it was a lot of fun.

adrian (49:03)

Thank you, Sam.

In this episode of AyahuascaPodcast.com host Sam Believ has a conversation with Ayla Schafer a renowned medicine musician.

We touch upon subjects of how medicine music is created, how music affects the ceremony, we talk about her hero’s journey, music as tool for healing, the crisis earth is facing and healing yourself first.

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to

http://www.lawayra.com

Follow Ayla on Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/aylaschafer?igsh=cTBmcWR1MXEydnk0

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:03)

Hi guys and welcome to Ayahuasca Podcast as always with you the host Sam Biliyev. Today we have a very special guest Ayla Schaeffer. Ayla is a multilingual singer and songwriter. She’s a song carrier, she’s a ceremonial musician ⁓ and she’s the voice of the earth pretty much. Ayla welcome to the show.

Ayla Schafer (00:08)

Today we have a very special guest, Ayla Schaefer. Ayla is a multilingual singer and songwriter. She’s a song carrier. She’s a ceremonial musician ⁓ and she’s the voice of the earth, very much. Ayla, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me here, Sam. Ayla, well first of all, I’m a big fan of your music and…

Sam Believ (00:29)

I’ll, well, first of all, I’m a big fan of your music and ⁓ we played in the ceremony as well. One of the very first songs I learned to play on a guitar ⁓ was ⁓ the Vuela con el Viento. So ⁓ it’s great to have you on the show. You know, I would like to ⁓ tell the listeners a little bit about you. I know the very few who don’t know you and…

Ayla Schafer (00:35)

one ⁓ of the very first songs I learned to play on the guitar was ⁓ the Vuelacla del Viento. So, great to have you on the show. You know, I would like to tell the listeners a little bit about you, I know that there are very few who don’t know you and ⁓ what brought you…

Sam Believ (00:58)

What brought you ⁓ into the music and most importantly, the ceremonial music?

Ayla Schafer (01:01)

into the music and most importantly ⁓ the ceremonial music. What brought me into music in general? You mean? Well, I grew up in a fairly musical family, not particularly for my parents, but my mother ⁓ always ⁓ encouraged us to be in…

Sam Believ (01:13)

Mm -hmm.

Ayla Schafer (01:31)

spaces that were kind of nourishing musicality. So we learned different instruments and you know like theatre groups, singing theatre groups and choirs and so I feel like what brought me into music was just something that was very natural and was kind of already unfolding since a young age. I always, always sang ⁓ loudly in the home even as a child and the…

Ayla Schafer (02:01)

I started writing my own stuff. My mum bought me a guitar when I was 15 and then that kind of opened up a new chapter of ⁓ bringing the music like much deeper home to myself and beginning to learn from then, beginning to express ⁓ really my own music of my heart and my emotions and my feelings. And this was always something that it was just happening in a very natural way. That’s just what ⁓ my soul needed to do.

Ayla Schafer (02:31)

But there was a big turning point in my life when I went ⁓ traveling to South America for the first time. I think I was about 21. Had this moment in my life of a kind of, ⁓ I would say like one of the first dark nights of my soul, you know, this kind of classic ⁓ moments that we go through as human beings. Some of us many times, some people maybe only, you know, once, there’s no…

Ayla Schafer (03:01)

one way that this can happen. So I kind of went through this time of great ⁓ crisis, it felt like a really big crisis and a death and a crumbling of everything ⁓ around me, within me, which inspired me to go on a kind of quest, a soul quest to ⁓ South America. And what was interesting when I arrived on this journey and the good, I would say the first year of this journey, I ended up being away for two years, the first year of the journey, I…

Ayla Schafer (03:30)

I basically ⁓ like ⁓ quit music. I’m not doing this anymore, you know, for all the different reasons, I’m going to go and just ⁓ go on a soul quest. And I mentioned that because it feels like it was something very important that I kind of really went with this very open, you know, like a blank new page.

Ayla Schafer (03:55)

I kind of close a chapter and open a blank new page. I’m not a musician. I’m not a singer. That’s not what I do. Kind of threw away any identity with that. I needed something needed to be stripped really to a pure place. And then in my journey in, ⁓ I spent those two years in Mexico and Peru. As things often happen when we kind of throw ourselves in a deep trust and faith into ⁓ the unknown.

Ayla Schafer (04:24)

like an adventure like this. Things just unfolded in a very synchronistic, natural, effortless way. You know, I met somebody who led me to this thing and then that led me to this thing. I literally felt like I was drawing a dot to dot picture. You know, I didn’t know what the picture was going to be, but it was very clear, like, I’m here, very clear, go to that dot, very clear, go to that dot. And during that time,

Ayla Schafer (04:54)

I, for the first time in my life, was sitting with people who were singing songs of ⁓ praise and celebration and prayer ⁓ to the earth, to the spirits, to the ancestors, singing traditional songs from ⁓ various ⁓ lineages, you know, there in Mexico. There’s such a meeting place of so many different traditions and the medicine ways and the Native American ways and the traditional ways of the…

Ayla Schafer (05:23)

the Mexica people and the Wicholl people. This was totally new for me, music as being part of ceremony, being in sweat lodges and the sun dance and the vision quest. Eventually, after quite some time, I ended up going to the desert there in Mexico, which was my first experience with any plant medicine, eating a lot of peyote there in the desert.

Ayla Schafer (05:53)

having a… Yeah, I mean, there’s no words really for what can describe what happened for me there. And from there, I had a very clear ⁓ direction to go to Peru and start working with the ayahuasca there. And ended up being six months in the Sacred Valley, just very fully immersed, a lot of medicine, a lot of ceremonies, a lot of people, a lot of confronting myself and…

Ayla Schafer (06:23)

It wasn’t until I was there in those ceremonies that I really started to sing again, actually. So a good year and a half ⁓ of ⁓ being in a kind of void, musical void space and the medicine, that space with the ayahuasca, yeah, it’s like came home deeply to my heart and…

Ayla Schafer (06:48)

Yeah, it’s continued from there, really.

Sam Believ (06:53)

Beautiful, thank you for sharing that. And I think if I’m not mistaken, the crisis, what started your musical crisis was that ⁓ you would sing in like bars or clubs and stuff like this and people would not necessarily be like paying attention to you as a bit of a musician myself. I remember for me it was always strange to understand that you can be like.

Ayla Schafer (06:54)

Thank you for sharing that. I think if I’m not mistaken, the crisis, what started your musical crisis was that ⁓ you would be singing like that.

Ayla Schafer (07:12)

I ⁓ remember ⁓ for me ⁓ it was always strange to understand that people could be like…

Sam Believ (07:21)

just become this background noise and it’s very frustrating. So when you started singing again, have you ever, so I would assume you found yourself singing in the ceremony?

Ayla Schafer (07:25)

Yes. When you started ⁓ singing again, have you ever thought how would you have seen yourself singing in the same moment? A very little bit, you know, very small amount because it was all very new and I definitely spent a good majority of the time on the floor, knocked out. But yeah, there would be moments that, you know, they would open up that space or invite me to sing and…

Ayla Schafer (07:56)

I mean, the grace ⁓ that I would experience in those moments was something I had never ever experienced and could never have imagined. You know, absolute pure grace and light. And what was very significant ⁓ was that I ⁓ mostly was having a very, very rough time with the medicine. Like that’s what needed to happen for me, you know, mostly like churning and churning and a lot of pain, a lot of darkness.

Ayla Schafer (08:27)

Yeah, so I’m gonna put a guitar in my hands ⁓ and I would open my mouth and it was like, ⁓ my spirit kind of ⁓ came back. I would come into alignment in myself. I would come into just very, very profound contact with whatever name we wanna call this ⁓ divinity, this light, this love and…

Ayla Schafer (08:53)

Yeah, just extraordinarily beautiful to feel that.

Sam Believ (08:57)

Yes, singing in the ceremony is a very ⁓ different experience because you get undivided attention and ⁓ as I like to say, I don’t know if you ever experienced it, but the best compliment for ⁓ a medicine musician singing in an ayahuasca ceremony is if people start purging or puking. So ⁓ it’s very different from, let’s say, singing in a bar. So you describe this feeling of…

Ayla Schafer (09:19)

It’s very different from what I would say singing in a bar. So you describe this feeling of ⁓ harmonizing yourself with your own music. So obviously now with all this experience, what do you think happens there ⁓ when you sing and when you sing do you also have an invention as a bit of…

Sam Believ (09:26)

harmonizing yourself with your own music. So obviously now with all this experience, what do you think happens there ⁓ when you sing and ⁓ when you sing, do you also like ⁓ have an intention as a bit of ⁓ the spiritual intention to get people somewhere? What does this process look like for you?

Ayla Schafer (09:43)

spiritual intention to get people somewhere. What did this process look like for you? Well, at the beginning I definitely didn’t have any intention like that. It was a very innocent, just bringing the absolute naked, vulnerable truth of my heart and my soul and my being and…

Ayla Schafer (10:11)

singing from that place, singing that and singing through that and…

Ayla Schafer (10:21)

If I reflect back now, what I, if I have to put it into words, which I’m often quite reluctant, you know, to kind of, ⁓ in some ways it’s like we can never really understand these mysteries, the many mysteries. And I do feel like music and singing is something very mysterious and very potent and ⁓ powerful and magical and very real.

Ayla Schafer (10:52)

And there’s so many ways of explaining it and so many ways of interpreting it. But one thing that comes to me is ⁓ I feel what I ⁓ probably was always doing when I was singing, even very subconsciously. And now, as I’m older and, you know, more have walked much more of my pathway, I feel like I can do it more consciously. But this is, it’s really just like singing, singing the love that.

Ayla Schafer (11:21)

is my spirit, like ⁓ radiating that, emanating that, channeling that and offering ⁓ the love of my heart through my voice. And I include within love, I include the grief and the rawness and the vulnerability. You know, I don’t just mean like ⁓ love is all beautiful and happy and blissful. Like that’s, those are aspects of that, but…

Ayla Schafer (11:51)

Love is our heart, the fullness and the rawness and ⁓ the depth of who we are. ⁓ And I guess, from the people who sit and who have sat and serenaded and received ⁓ from me, that is touching a place in their hearts because it’s the language of the heart. My heart is speaking to the rawness. The rawness of my heart is speaking to the rawness.

Ayla Schafer (12:21)

of their heart and ⁓ I also truly believe our heart is anyway just a gateway ⁓ to the much greater that is us and beyond us. So through our heart the spirit speaks and the earth speaks and the ancestors speak like this is our this is a great gateway to ⁓ the greater ⁓ of this existence.

Sam Believ (12:50)

that’s a great way to describe it. I like how you talk about those things. I can feel myself calming down as well. So it’s beautiful. Do you remember the first medicine song that you written? Do you remember when your music kind of went from just being music and went to being more of a ceremony and more of a medicine music? Was there a shift or was it like a gradual ⁓ transition?

Ayla Schafer (13:22)

I would say both. It was a shift and it also was gradual. Like when I came back from this journey, this two -year journey, the collection of songs that I wrote during that time were like, I feel like they were bridge, it was like bridge songs, if that makes sense. So it wasn’t that I went suddenly from this kind of other phase that I’d been in and suddenly was in this ⁓ medicine music.

Ayla Schafer (13:52)

chapter or something. There were these songs that were coming through that were like little bit of both somehow. And then I think the first song ⁓ might have been Onshimaka. I can’t remember if it was that of Vuelo con el Viento, but basically those two songs were the first two songs that were very distinctly. No, I’m wrong. Sorry, I’m totally wrong. It was neither of those. It was I Call You.

Ayla Schafer (14:18)

And then those two songs came, but those three songs came all around the same time and it was quite distinctly different. And when I wrote I Call You, I remember quite clearly ⁓ giving myself permission to ⁓ uncensor ⁓ myself. I’d kind of realised that ⁓ a part of me had ⁓ been like holding back or still, ⁓ you know, saying…

Ayla Schafer (14:46)

saying things and expressing in a way that was safe, culturally safe basically. Like, ⁓ I’ll still be more or less accepted if I sing about this. And then I wrote I Call You, which is a song, an invocation to ⁓ my ancestors and to many different spirits, to animals, to guides, to the forces of creation. And it was post -ceremony, I think it was the morning after ceremony, and I really was like…

Ayla Schafer (15:17)

I set myself free. I’m just going to sing ⁓ absolutely what is coming through from my prayer and my heart. And that was the shift. That was a clear shift.

Sam Believ (15:31)

It’s exactly bringing me to my next question. Some people describe medicine musicians or musicians in generally, they describe this process of almost…

Ayla Schafer (15:32)

It’s exactly bringing me to my next question. Some people describe in medicine musicians or musicians in general, they describe this process of almost ⁓ universal, if I should say, writing songs through them as if some song just comes to them and it just lingers in your mind and you almost can’t help but write it.

Sam Believ (15:45)

the universe, the Pachamama writing songs through them as if some song just comes to them and it just lingers in your mind and you almost can’t help but write it, you know, synchronistically it’s just kind of pushed upon you. So in a way, ⁓ what do you think, what role does the plant medicine play in your journey as ⁓ a songwriter?

Ayla Schafer (15:56)

synchronistically.

Sam Believ (16:11)

And can you maybe describe this process to people? Like how can a music be, ⁓ how is the music born in you and what role the plant medicines play in that?

Ayla Schafer (16:25)

The answer feels really very big because the role that the plant medicines have played for ⁓ me, you know, specifically in my musical journey, I can’t separate my musical journey from like my human ⁓ soul journey. It’s like, it is the same journey. So really, what actually has been…

Ayla Schafer (16:52)

The most relevant is that the plant medicines have been ⁓ great teachers and guides and support for going on ⁓ very, very deep ⁓ healing experiences with myself of understanding, seeing myself in the ⁓ powerful depths that the medicines help us to go.

Ayla Schafer (17:22)

help us to access things that have been so deeply buried, confronting our trauma and ⁓ releasing and crying and ⁓ feeling and seeing and growing. Anyone who has sat with the plant medicines will know what I’m speaking about. There’s ⁓ no words for the depths to which we are taken on a very personal, human, emotional…

Ayla Schafer (17:52)

you know, trauma healing level. And then there is the whole realms of ⁓ helping us to access ⁓ and remember that we are ⁓ a spirit part of a world that is spirit. And the realms that I’ve been to, the plant medicine, they opened up so much of that for me.

Ayla Schafer (18:20)

you know, to be able to feel the spirits and speak with them and receive messages and look at this creation and see really what it is like. Wow, it’s absolute mysterious miracle where everything is living and breathing and talking everything, you know, the air, the plants, the water, the sky, the trees, like this is what is real. They really.

Ayla Schafer (18:50)

are helping us to see and remember and ⁓ be in communication with, ⁓ to be speaking ⁓ and receiving the language of the spirit world. So all of the, you know, just on a very personal level, the journeys that I’ve been through, the healing that I’ve been through, the way that ⁓ the world, the truth of this reality has been revealed to me by the plant medicines, all of that,

Ayla Schafer (19:20)

has then become that which I ⁓ am singing. It comes through my music indirectly in that sense because where I sing from is really my experience and where I’m at and my prayers. And this is another aspect of being in ceremony, being with the plant medicines, but also the ceremony that comes with that, the language, the way of being ⁓ in prayer together. And…

Ayla Schafer (19:50)

being in a in a

Ayla Schafer (19:54)

a state of deep reverence and honour and respect ⁓ for all of life, which is kind of very much the language of being in the ceremonies that you can’t not be in that. I keep using the word language, I guess, because…

Ayla Schafer (20:15)

I feel like a lot of it is about the conversation that we’re having, whether it’s the conversation we’re having with the plants or with the conversation with ourselves or the conversation with the earth or the conversation with the spirits. And the conversation isn’t just a language of words, it’s really like a language of deep feeling and intuition and heightened senses. So the aspect of prayer…

Ayla Schafer (20:45)

has ⁓ had a massive impact on how, in which form my songs are taking, you know, basically really allowing myself to pray, which most of us growing up in the conventional world we lived in, we live in, I came from a non -religious family, like I had no sense of ⁓ prayer.

Ayla Schafer (21:11)

or speaking to forces other than myself or engaging in a sacred conversation, communication. So yeah, I hope that answers the question in a kind of… Yeah.

Sam Believ (21:25)

It does, yeah, it absolutely does. You mentioned the word language. I think music is the universal language, right? It can be understood by anyone and nature also ⁓ plays music and I can hear birds singing right now around me as well. It’s very musical.

Sam Believ (21:46)

And I know you speaking of language from a human term, you write songs in English and in Spanish. And it’s interesting because I noticed that for me personally, the language I use to communicate with plants ⁓ is Spanish because this is how I learned it.

Sam Believ (22:04)

here in Colombia, so if I wanna work with tobacco, I speak to it in Spanish, abuelo, tabaco, and stuff like that. So how does ⁓ that come to you, and how do you choose the language in which to express a certain creative idea?

Ayla Schafer (22:12)

So how does that come to you? How do you choose the language in which to express a certain creative?

Ayla Schafer (22:26)

That’s a good question. It’s not really very clear to me how that happens. It just, you know, I guess it would be similar. Like how do you choose the chords that you play on the song? How do you choose the rhythm? How do you choose how fast it is? How do you choose the words? Like it’s go, there is an impulse. There is a feeling. There is something moving in the spirit and in the heart that is. ⁓

Ayla Schafer (22:55)

is wants to be expressed and that feeling needs to kind of be given a form that ⁓ is the feeling, if that makes sense. You know, the music is the form of whatever that impulse is, where it’s coming from, that feeling, that prayer, that voice. And I guess I’d just like to add, I actually now started singing in proto -Celtic, which is the oldest.

Ayla Schafer (23:23)

Recorded version of the Celtic language. It’s not a spoken language anymore ⁓ and It’s not a complete language anymore and the Celtic ancestors would have spoken this about four thousand years ago And in the chapter of my life that I’m in right now I’m mostly writing in proto Celtic and it’s just ⁓ it just feels right It just feels that that is in resonance with what I’m experiencing inside of myself. So that would be the same, you know

Ayla Schafer (23:52)

when it’s a Spanish song or when it’s an English song, there is somehow a resonance that simply feels, just simply feels right.

Sam Believ (24:01)

Can you maybe ⁓ sing a short verse in proto -galactic just so we know how it sounds like? ⁓

Ayla Schafer (24:11)

A short verse in Proto -Celtic, let me think.

Ayla Schafer (24:18)

Okay.

Sam Believ (24:40)

Beautiful. I did manage to get you to sing, so finally.

Ayla Schafer (24:44)

You tricked me into doing it.

Sam Believ (24:48)

Yeah, I tricked you into it. ⁓ You know, this is beautiful. Thank you for sharing it. And my sister lives in Ireland and she after coming to experience ayahuasca here at Lawara, she got very inspired in the shamanic journey and she’s doing the dramic and the Celtic tradition and talking to the trees. So yeah, I visited her a couple of times and it sounds, you know, ⁓ Irish, Celtic as well, Gaelic.

Ayla Schafer (25:13)

Irish, Celtic as well, Gaelic, sounds a bit like that. And there was this deep ⁓ Shamanistic tradition in…

Sam Believ (25:17)

sounds a bit like that and there was this deep shaman shaman shamanistic tradition in you know British Isles and the Celts they they also had their own plant medicine I believe it was the Amanita muscaria right I don’t know if you if you if you just channel it through yourself or maybe there is some kind of tradition you connecting with or ⁓ rediscovering something how does it feel for you?

Ayla Schafer (25:28)

Well ⁓ sadly the traditions have been for the most part destroyed ⁓ by what has happened.

Ayla Schafer (25:56)

across Europe and Ireland and England and Scotland, you know, the same stories really, like religion, colonisation, invasion, destruction, witch hunts, you know, they, sadly, those forces…

Ayla Schafer (26:13)

that have ravaged the European lands. They did do a very, very, very good job at pretty much destroying the roots of the traditions. Ireland has got a lot more intact than England. I don’t know, I don’t have Irish ancestry, so it’s not something that I have followed much, but I have many friends who are kind of also following ⁓ the threads of the Celtic pathways in Ireland. It’s much more alive. I think they lost.

Ayla Schafer (26:43)

less, but they still lost a lot. And in terms of the ceremonies of the plant medicines, it wasn’t just the aminata, it was also the ⁓ smaller mushroom. I think people maybe call it the Liberty Capple, there’s various names. But mushrooms, basically the psychedelic mushrooms, are the indigenous medicines of ⁓

Ayla Schafer (27:11)

certainly England and Wales and Scotland and I imagine Ireland. But the traditions, the clarity and the definition of the traditions ⁓ that held them and how ceremonies would have been held and what were the songs and what was the protocol. This, as far as I’m aware, and I say that because I have the limits to what I really know, as far as I’m aware, people are…

Ayla Schafer (27:40)

having to re -envision or receive again exactly what that looked like. And I haven’t so far in my life come into contact with somebody that it felt really resonant for me to sit with them with the mushrooms in a ceremonial way. My journey and my ancestors are calling me to connect through the medicine of the land and the spirit that is so alive and of…

Ayla Schafer (28:08)

of the stones and the sacred sites and the mushrooms are calling me ⁓ very clearly. But ⁓ it’s unfolding slowly and at the moment it’s a very solitary ⁓ process where I feel like I am being asked to remember from within myself and from the land, from being in relationship with the land.

Ayla Schafer (28:38)

and kind of awakening the memory of my bones. I don’t have the presence of the teachers and the elders that I ⁓ deeply long for, of which there certainly is ⁓ more presence of that in the Americas.

Sam Believ (28:55)

This is, it is very sad, right, that ⁓ some traditions been destroyed and they will never, will never be able to like listen to their Icaros or their chants and never know how they used to do the ceremony. But in a way it is beautiful with plant medicines that the knowledge is there. And sometimes I remember when I started my…

Sam Believ (29:20)

journey with med medicines the the Titus here in Colombia they call them Titus but normally you would say shamans they they told me that the the medicine is the ultimate teacher it will show you exactly how you need to do your stuff so some some people might ⁓ have their own sort of input but the medicine will show you how to do it right so if you I’m assuming if you were to work with

Sam Believ (29:47)

the traditional plant medicines in the place where they were with this intention. They will once again teach us how to ⁓ do it properly and recover those traditions. The most fascinating story I’ve heard about it is about the medicine called Wilka and the shaman that was giving us Wilka told us that they would drink San Pedro in those ancient megalithic sites ⁓ and as they were drinking San Pedro all of a sudden San Pedro gave them ability to

Sam Believ (30:17)

understand the signs on the stones and they through that they were able to recover this medicine of Wilke which I don’t know if it’s a true story but it’s fascinating imagine like rediscovering those ancient traditions that’s that’s really ⁓ really cool and we’re so lucky to to have the traditions that have survived like the peyote tradition ⁓ the San Pedro tradition the ayahuasca tradition

Ayla Schafer (30:17)

and the signs on the stones and they were able to recover this medicine of Rukka, which I don’t know if it’s a true story, but it’s fascinating, like rediscovering those ancient traditions that’s…

Ayla Schafer (30:36)

of art like the Ote tradition, the San Pedro tradition, the Ayahuasca tradition, and even mushrooms, you know, in some parts of Mexico. I’m really surprised that your medicine journey started in Mexico, but…

Sam Believ (30:43)

and even mushrooms you know in some parts of Mexico and I’m really surprised that ⁓ your medicine journey started in Mexico but you’re only now kind of getting into the the mushroom side of things so let’s talk about that what is what is your favorite way to what are your favorite plant medicines and why and what

Ayla Schafer (30:55)

⁓ So ⁓ let’s talk about that. What ⁓ is your favorite ⁓ way to, what are your favorite fun medicines and why?

Sam Believ (31:08)

You mentioned that ayahuasca is very, your ayahuasca experiences are very profound. What about other plant medicines or ⁓ yeah, just talk to us a little bit about that.

Ayla Schafer (31:22)

In some ways I don’t really feel like I have a favorite. It’s like ⁓ I feel that I receive different ⁓ things from different medicines. Like quite literally, each medicine is a different medicine for my being and my healing and my journey. Like the gifts, the qualities are…

Ayla Schafer (31:52)

are different and there may be certain moments where I feel ⁓ that a certain quality is more needed than another quality. The two medicines that really I’ve worked the most with is the Peyotein and Ayahuasca and I really, I love them both deeply. It’s a bit like, you know, someone saying like, who do you love more in your family? You know, you’d be like, well, ⁓ it’s not really about like…

Ayla Schafer (32:20)

which one is my favorite, like I love them all, but yet the relationship with each is so totally, totally different. And…

Ayla Schafer (32:33)

Yeah, you know, I think of ayahuasca like my mother, like it’s the feminine quality. Like if I, if I, when I in my imagination connect with that, I kind of feel like embraced. You know, I can curl up in my deep vulnerability and be safe and be ⁓ embraced to go really deep into ⁓ the things that I need to meet in myself, which has been a lot, a lot of pain and a lot of grief and a lot of trauma.

Ayla Schafer (33:03)

whereas with the peyote it’s been ⁓ more upright and more open and out and meeting my strength and aligning myself. And of course what also makes a massive difference ⁓ is the tradition that the ceremony is being held in. And this is kind of…

Ayla Schafer (33:27)

almost as important as the medicine itself can make such a big difference. You know, say if you’re sitting in the ceremony like Shopeebo tradition or even in Columbia, it’s quite like in the dark, a lot of silence and, ⁓ you know, quiet and not so much movement compared to if you sit with the Yawanawa where it’s like not silent for a second and it’s so much joy and so much celebration and dancing.

Ayla Schafer (33:58)

that makes a huge difference to the experience that ⁓ is going to be had. So really, there’s the medicine and then there’s the tradition and then they kind of merge and ⁓ define the experience together. And I would say my pathway has been also navigating a lot of like, which tradition am I am I called to, you know, the songs and the way and the route, the route of that the teachings that come with the tradition and what I’m learning from.

Ayla Schafer (34:29)

from that sacred ancient knowledge. ⁓ And now I am kind of returning to my ⁓ own heritage and ⁓ feeling this sense of like I’ve spent so much, so many years exploring with other traditions which have given me so much and now I’m kind of being like called back home to my own.

Ayla Schafer (34:58)

hearth fire, you know, like the fire of my home land where my ancestors come from, where my the memory is held in my blood and my bones and what comes with that is a clear calling like Isla the Mushrooms, you need to work with the mushroom, it’s time now to ⁓ to go there and yeah like you said I’m surprised that it you know for so many years.

Ayla Schafer (35:25)

you’ve been working with medicines for years and it’s only just now coming and I go like, yeah, I’m also surprised but it’s almost like I had to learn all that I learned from these other traditions to be in the place where I am now which is probably more capable of…

Ayla Schafer (35:43)

holding that for myself because that’s kind of what’s needed with a medicine where there isn’t a clear ⁓ instruction and a clear direction anyway, not from the human world at the moment.

Sam Believ (35:58)

Yeah, it’s very interesting how, ⁓ you know, synchronistically, it just all happens in the perfect way. And ⁓ I’ve been, I’ve personally been feeling that in my work, I’ve been, I’ve been doing a lot of work myself, but every big step and every big decision.

Sam Believ (36:18)

was some kind of synchronistic event where it was like you go this way you go this way and it I never for example I never set out to start an ayahuasca retreat I was just I just wanted to ⁓ maybe ⁓ drink medicine from home and then it just became became this this big thing you talk about different traditions I don’t know have you ever heard about ⁓ inga tradition of ⁓ like Colombian jahey ayahuasca tradition have you heard about it?

Ayla Schafer (36:48)

Well, I did spend some time in Colombia, sitting with some titers. It’s not something that I know that I experienced a huge amount with, but yeah, I think I’ve had a glimpse.

Sam Believ (37:04)

So in Columbia, there are five tribes, I believe, that work with Awoska traditionally, Kofan, Inga, Siona, Kamsat, and I always forget one. But the Inga is a very musical tradition, at least the titles, the lineage I work with.

Sam Believ (37:26)

and the music starts one hour after the medicine is served and almost doesn’t end till the end of the ceremony with just short breaks and the music starts slowly with quiet songs where you know some of your music would fit perfectly and I have played your music as well ⁓ in our ceremonies many times ⁓ and then it starts to build and build and I think it ends up you described this yeah yeah yeah yeah one now what yeah

Ayla Schafer (37:55)

Yawanawa tradition where it’s more joyous so we kind of have the whole spectrum kind of more introspective in the beginning and then it kind of builds up and then it ends up in a celebration style thing.

Sam Believ (37:56)

Yawanawa tradition where it’s more joyous so we kind of have the whole spectrum kind of bit ⁓ more introspective in the beginning and then it kind of builds up and then it ends up in a celebration style thing. But I would like to talk to you about ⁓ what is the…

Sam Believ (38:17)

You yourself personally in being in a ceremony where there is music involved, the Icaros, what do you feel is the role of the medicine music or the role of Icaros or chants in the ⁓ process? I would like to hear your opinion. Obviously, I would like to share mine afterwards as well.

Ayla Schafer (38:33)

or chance in the process, I would like to hear your opinion on this. I would like to share my opinion. I’m curious to hear what you will say.

Ayla Schafer (38:49)

Yeah, I guess I can ⁓ speak from like how it’s felt for me and speak from a place of receiving because I feel like those who are singing the songs or, you know, singing very specific Icaros, very specific moments, they will be able to speak about it in a way that’s ⁓ very specific.

Ayla Schafer (39:18)

to their understanding and very specific to their intention. So from my experience of really receiving, it’s like the music is, it’s like the music is the river that is carrying me. And you know, sometimes it’s really directing ⁓ in a very subtle way, like the river has a flow and it has a direction.

Ayla Schafer (39:47)

And within the river, you know, there is a freedom to how we respond to the water and whether we want to try and swim upstream or whether we want to try and ⁓ splash or, you know, whether we’re floating or whether we’re drowning. Like, the music isn’t an invincible force that can guarantee something to happen, but it definitely has.

Ayla Schafer (40:09)

has an influence. I have often felt it like a life, especially when I’m having a hard time, like, just follow the music, just follow the music, I learn you’ll be okay. It really is that experience. I follow the music, it’s okay. And I guess what I mean by okay is I’m not drowning.

Ayla Schafer (40:33)

like it holds me afloat, it helps me to remain connected to myself and connected to whatever forces are being invoked by the music in that moment. And that’s very specific to what is being shared. What healing forces is it calling? What spirits is it calling to? What is the intention of that song? Is it a healing song? Is it a celebration song? Is it for the ancestors? Is it specifically for the person who’s being sung to? And this is where there is this,

Ayla Schafer (41:03)

absolute magic. It’s a tool. It’s a very, very specific tool that can go in and, you know, I’ve heard people speak about how it can literally go into our DNA and ⁓ be working on us and working in the energy lines of our body and working with our trauma and our nervous system and communicating with our ancestors and speaking with the earth. And it’s a language of

Ayla Schafer (41:30)

Like you said, it’s a universal language and quite literally ⁓ universal language, like not just, yeah, every single human being makes music, but it’s like, it is the language of the universe. It is the language of everything we see. And that’s quite powerful to acknowledge. Okay, if all of this is, you know, like I’ve heard ⁓ the Shipibo they speak about.

Ayla Schafer (41:56)

everything is made of song and they can read the song and everything and that’s what their beautiful drawings, their embroidered, it’s like the Ikaros in form, they literally can read it. And so ⁓ if that, if everything is form and everything can be read and everything can be sung, and I am also exactly the same, if somebody who knows what they’re doing is singing to…

Ayla Schafer (42:25)

the song lines of my own being and working with that very carefully and intentionally, this is something very powerful and something incredibly ⁓ mysterious. So I’m curious what you will say.

Sam Believ (42:39)

soon.

Sam Believ (42:41)

It’s a beautiful explanation. Yeah, what you mentioned is like music is vibration as well, right? And everything is vibration. Our atoms is literally vibration. So, but what I was going to say is exactly what you mentioned is a lifeline. It’s like this, no matter how deep you are in your process, you can have your eyes closed and crawled in the corner of the medicine house and going through the deepest, hardest thing you’ve ever been through. The music will always be there as a reminder.

Sam Believ (43:11)

that you are safe and there is a team of people here and it’s a controlled space and everything is going to be okay. But another role that I notice music plays is somehow synchronistically people keep telling in the word circles after the ceremony that…

Sam Believ (43:29)

it’s this word they said abuelo and I thought about my grandfather and it helps them to like take them on the path to unravel their specific process and it’s always synchronistically people keep saying the music was exactly perfect for me as it was as if you were singing just for me and it was it was guiding me in exactly where I needed to go so and and I’m curious if it’s if it’s really that perfect or maybe there’s this teamwork between

Ayla Schafer (43:30)

this word, if they said abuelo and I thought about my grandfather and it helps them to like take them on a path to unravel their specific process. And it’s always synchronistically people keep saying the music was exactly perfect for me. It was as if you were singing just for me and it was guiding me in exactly where I needed to go. And I’m curious if it’s really that perfect or maybe there’s this deep word between.

Sam Believ (43:58)

the medicine and the music where ⁓ your conscious catches exactly the words you want to catch. And ⁓ yeah, I have no complete understanding of it. But the music to me ⁓ seems to be a huge part of the healing ⁓ because it also sometimes ⁓ when you go to this negative place, it kind of just brings you back to positive. You know, it’s like just music is such a

Sam Believ (44:27)

positive thing, such a beautiful thing that it just ⁓ doesn’t let you go too dark or to, you know, to an unproductive negative place, so to speak. I don’t know if you have anything to add to that.

Ayla Schafer (44:32)

⁓ I ⁓ don’t know if you have anything to add.

Ayla Schafer (44:48)

No, other than yes. Yes, I agree.

Sam Believ (44:51)

And I remember in my first ever ayahuasca ceremony, I could, I don’t think it ever happened to me before, but I would.

Sam Believ (45:00)

I would close my eyes and I could ⁓ see the music. So not hear them like I would hear it, but I could see the music. So my, ⁓ my psychedelic visions were dancing together with the music, kind of like, you know, this old windows media player where, yeah, it’s, it was, it was so bizarre. I don’t know if it happens to you a lot or like what, what even is like ⁓ the blurry line between different senses and

Ayla Schafer (45:06)

I could hear it, but I could see the music. So my psychedelic visions were dancing together with music. Kind of like ⁓ this old Windows media player where, yeah, it’s so bizarre. I don’t know if it happens to you a lot, but what if in these, like…

Sam Believ (45:28)

Yeah, I’m getting in the deep waters here with all this. The realizations are coming to me about the music, the vibration. ⁓ Yeah, I’m done. I’m done speaking.

Ayla Schafer (45:44)

Hehehehe.

Sam Believ (45:46)

What ⁓ inspires you, for example, as a creator, where do you find your inspiration?

Ayla Schafer (46:05)

I really find the inspiration from ⁓ my experience really, my experience as a human being ⁓ in relationship with ⁓ life and the spirit of life.

Ayla Schafer (46:26)

And ⁓ I really value my human experience. There can be ⁓ some ⁓ spiritual approaches or pathways can place ⁓ more emphasis on kind of leaving behind like the humanness, the emotions and the story and the process. But for me, this is really rich.

Ayla Schafer (46:56)

fertile ⁓ soil and my human experience.

Ayla Schafer (47:05)

is that which is actually ⁓ like ⁓ creating the creativity because it’s because it’s my human experience which is in relationship ⁓ with with life and with the ancestors and with the land and with the spirits it is from being in relationship me and this ⁓ and myself you know being in relationship with myself even ⁓ that is this rich

Ayla Schafer (47:35)

fertile soil from where the creativity in the songs ⁓ are growing from. And certainly as I ⁓ have moved along my journey, like at the beginning, it was much more, it basically was all only about my human experience because I didn’t have a sense of the sacred or prayer or spirit or. ⁓

Ayla Schafer (48:02)

the earth as a living being, that didn’t really exist. So it was very ⁓ much about that. And now I feel it’s much more about this dance and this conversation and ⁓ me speaking with the earth and ⁓ asking for guidance and speaking to the spirit and coming with my prayer and my rawness and my vulnerability ⁓ and ⁓ my challenges and asking for help and…

Ayla Schafer (48:31)

offering gratitude and ⁓ invoking that which I am calling to be felt in the moment. And, you know, I go, I definitely go through, ⁓ like,

Ayla Schafer (48:46)

chapters or phases where a certain aspect is more relevant. For me right now, it’s really all about the ancestors. It’s like I’m totally on that path. Like the spirit of the land and the ancestors I think have always been, well not always, you know, since the ⁓ shift moment of my life and my music. The spirit of the earth ⁓ and the ancestors have been quite constant.

Ayla Schafer (49:15)

seems, but the creativity is being defined by the experience that I’m having ⁓ as a human being here in human form, living this life in this ⁓ pretty crazy world.

Sam Believ (49:31)

Speaking of Earth, I know you’re very passionate about ⁓ the global events and sort of, you know, people like you who ⁓ talk about love and harmony and try to push through your songs and through your work, push the world towards more love and more connection with the Earth. But as you said, there are forces, the negative forces, sort of that.

Sam Believ (49:59)

that you know arguably you can say are kind of winning right now what do you ⁓ what do you

Sam Believ (50:08)

What do you think we could do through the music and through the plant medicine to maybe ⁓ help the world be less sick?

Ayla Schafer (50:22)

Well, the most ⁓ obvious thing that comes is like, when we heal, the world becomes less sick. Like, just as simple as that. Like we are, we are part of a great organism. You know, the earth and all beings who live here, like we are part of a one.

Ayla Schafer (50:44)

one living organism altogether and each one of us is a cell part of a one big body and for every cell that heals well that body is going to slowly slowly slowly become more healthy and less sick and of course it can be very easy to be like I’m just one human being and it’s also very easy to slip into this kind of hyper individualized

Ayla Schafer (51:13)

mentality in terms of like, it’s all about me and it’s all about my healing. And therefore I can just like shut out the rest of the world and the suffering of other people because ⁓ as long as I’m healing, I’m doing my part. Like, there is a truth to this. And there is a kind of, you know, that I feel there’s a

Ayla Schafer (51:36)

I feel like there is an extension, our healing by its nature begins to extend beyond ourself because I feel that from my experience, like the deeper I heal, the more I begin to understand how profoundly ⁓ connected everything is because I’m coming into a state of deeper connection with myself, which I feel like a lot of…

Ayla Schafer (52:02)

the trauma and the things that need healing is this kind of fractured ⁓ connection, like fractured state of our fractured natural state. And ⁓ by healing and kind of returning to a sense of wholeness and regulating ourself and letting go of what that means, which needs to be let go of and coming into a state of ⁓ health ⁓ as an individual.

Ayla Schafer (52:33)

I believe it’s natural that we begin to go like, ⁓ now, you know, like now I’m feeling a bit better. I can begin to go like, ⁓ I’m not ⁓ alone here. I’m part of ⁓ a great web of life, which I’m just one tiny little ⁓ strand on.

Ayla Schafer (52:54)

And actually humanity itself is just one little strand ⁓ within the great web of life. Like I am part of this huge web where everything is interconnected in ways that I probably can never even fully grasp. And actually it’s a total illusion that we are separate from one another, that we are separate from the earth, that we are separate from the spirit world. So ⁓ I feel…

Ayla Schafer (53:23)

deep, true healing ⁓ will naturally ⁓ bring us out of this state of kind of hyper individualized, very capitalistic ⁓ healing mindset, which we do see a lot of, you know, that is just natural in the world that we live in. There is a lot of emphasis on that, but people ⁓ naturally begin to open their eyes more and more and wake up to a greater truth.

Ayla Schafer (53:53)

And then we begin to really work together, you know, and then we begin to understand that ⁓ there’s no such thing as my healing when I live in such a broken world. Like there’s no such thing as reaching a destination of me being totally fine and living in a broken world. Like my healing is our healing and is their healing and your healing is my healing. And the more that we understand that, the stronger we become, the more powerful we become, the more of a…

Ayla Schafer (54:21)

of a counter force to the predatory forces, which, like you say, kind of look like they’re winning at the moment. And ⁓ yes, we must really do everything we can to.

Ayla Schafer (54:32)

be ⁓ the ⁓ energy that is needed in this world as the counter force to the dark forces. Whatever we want to call that or however we want to understand that, I don’t really even get it. But…

Ayla Schafer (54:52)

I do believe starting with ourselves ⁓ is incredibly powerful and following that, trusting that, being ⁓ committed and devoted ⁓ to continuing, continuing, continuing ⁓ will ⁓ create ripples and will hold hands with others and will unite us as…

Ayla Schafer (55:18)

humanity and will include all beings and will include the darkness and the suffering of people whose lives have nothing to do with us, which isn’t true because it has everything to do with us. We are all related and this is what we all hear many traditions will speak about this truth. We are connected to one another. We are connected to everything. We are not separate. We are related and everything that’s happening to the earth and

Ayla Schafer (55:47)

to all peoples on this earth is also happening to us. But likewise, everything that’s happening to us ⁓ is also happening for the bigger. So we are a microcosm of the macrocosm. ⁓ And it can be very empowering to acknowledge ⁓ our individual part within this great time that we’re in, this great turning, this great healing of humanity. And really, where does all the darkness come from?

Ayla Schafer (56:18)

I don’t personally believe in evil. I don’t buy into that story or that doesn’t resonate for me, I put it like that. I don’t believe there are evil forces. I don’t believe there are evil people. I just believe that there’s pain and there’s trauma that creates disconnection and that creates ⁓ closed hearts and broken hearts and ⁓ enables people to treat one another the way that…

Ayla Schafer (56:46)

we see happening, you know, within, within people’s homes and within nations being at war and also enables us to treat the earth in the way that we do like we can only do that because we’re so desperately disconnected and so wounded, the wound of separation. So by healing that wound, one heart at a time, one life at time, and coming home, reclaiming our place within this sacred web of life and reclaiming our place as…

Ayla Schafer (57:16)

as children of this incredible miracle, children of the earth, ⁓ living with love and devotion. This is what is needed.

Sam Believ (57:25)

Yeah, that’s very beautiful. Thank you so much. Hurt people hurt people and I do agree with you that there are no bad people necessarily, but there are people that are just not good at the moment. And I think that ⁓ with the beautiful tools that we have now like plant medicines, we can maybe change that a little bit. I definitely believe in it. I’ve been in many of an argument.

Sam Believ (57:53)

with my optimistic approach but I dream of the world where ⁓ everyone has had ayahuasca and everyone has done yoga and meditation and everyone is ⁓ listening to maybe your music instead of ⁓ gangster rap and stuff like that. But I think yeah, we live in ⁓ such challenging times but we have better tools than our ancestors ever before. And…

Ayla Schafer (58:05)

⁓ Thanks ⁓ for watching.

Sam Believ (58:23)

Yeah, I love what you said about the fact that.

Sam Believ (58:27)

we have so many people coming to lawyre and they’re they’re they’re sick physically because they’re so stressed about the wars or about the elections or something like that and in reality it’s like yeah just heal yourself first heal yourself first and get the best version of yourself and then start radiating radiating that and maybe help somebody but don’t take on those huge challenges that maybe you not necessarily can solve and don’t get overwhelmed and just burnt out because i can imagine a good person

Sam Believ (58:57)

that is so upset about some ⁓ negative event that’s happening in the world and then now that good person, that loving caring person is now banning their friends on Facebook ⁓ which is not necessarily an act of love right so it’s like ⁓ yeah like clean your own room first and then then go ahead and try to change the world so I think that’s a very wise and very balanced approach from you and I

Sam Believ (59:25)

salute you for those words. ⁓

Ayla Schafer (59:27)

Well, I would like to say that I really have been learning this over the past few months. Like those words come from my experience of having been very intensely pulled into the horrors of the world, feeling ⁓ that pain so deeply in my heart. It’s always been, ever since a young child, it’s so natural. My sense of empathy and compassion goes so deep. You know, I see, if I see like a…

Ayla Schafer (59:54)

⁓ wounded bird on the street it’s like it goes so deeply into me so if I see the horrors of the world it’s it’s I can’t not feel it incredibly deeply and I ⁓ I have had the experience of what what good am I

Ayla Schafer (60:15)

to myself, to my family or to the world if I’m in a state of despair, distress, emotional dysregulation, overwhelm, confusion, fear, like how am I serving the healing of humanity ⁓ if I’m in those states? Because I think that…

Ayla Schafer (60:39)

that is what is needed for the world to heal, which basically, you know, like, we have to not look away. That’s what my heart has been saying. Like, I have to witness this. I cannot turn away. This needs to be seen. How will this ever go away and change unless we see it ⁓ and stand up ⁓ for the earth, stand up for humanity, stand up for that which very rightly does need standing up for that is true. But it doesn’t work when

Ayla Schafer (61:09)

we ⁓ are ⁓ collapsing ⁓ and when we are not shining and when we’re not in love and kindness and dignity and respect and in a state of grace in ourself, if we’re not radiating our light, we cannot ⁓ be serving ⁓ goodness, ⁓ we cannot be serving the good force, we cannot be serving the healing that is needed because the best way we can serve that is by being.

Ayla Schafer (61:39)

those energies that are needed like first and foremost ⁓ and from there you know the right action will come the right direction will come we will know where is our place when is the moment to speak out when is the moment to rest when is the moment ⁓ to ⁓ you know whatever whatever is regarded to and ⁓ I guess I I wanted to just add this in because it’s it really is these times where

Ayla Schafer (62:08)

There’s so much suffering and there has been also for thousands of years and most probably ⁓ there will continue to be a lot of suffering for a while and many catastrophes and ⁓ we are being, I feel like we are being shaped and trained for these times of how do we respond and how do we stay in our center and how do we stay in alignment with the qualities that are most needed here on earth that we anchor those qualities here in this reality.

Ayla Schafer (62:38)

through our own being, through being them. This is the most powerful way that we can anchor that energy that is needed is through being it, through walking it, radiating it, emanating it, living it. Then our thoughts, our words, our actions will be coming from a place deeply aligned with those truths. And I, from my own experience of having really wobbled and really kind of been.

Ayla Schafer (63:06)

pulled under the water, I’m beginning to understand that ⁓ this somehow is the way and it’s not easy because it’s also not about spiritually bypassing. ⁓ That’s also not the answer. It’s some very fine dance of including it all, responding to it all, but being very anchored, very grounded, very centered, very connected ⁓ and…

Ayla Schafer (63:36)

and leaning back into all that presence and support and guidance that we have of the invisible realm that are ⁓ also working here with us.

Sam Believ (63:51)

Very wise words, Hila, thank you so much. ⁓ Synchronistically so, most people don’t know I’m originally from Latvia because I don’t look Latvian, people think I am Colombian or something like that. And a few days ago you were in Latvia ⁓ and as you say those things it kind of reminds me when Latvia was getting independence ⁓ from Soviet Union,

Ayla Schafer (63:52)

Thank you so much.

Ayla Schafer (64:05)

Thank you.

Ayla Schafer (64:10)

Hmm.

Ayla Schafer (64:14)

Wow.

Sam Believ (64:17)

they actually managed to do it without fighting and revolutions and killing people and stuff like that what they did was they actually created a human chain of people holding hands all the way from Estonia through Latvia and down to Lithuania and they were just holding hands and they were just singing it’s called singing revolution I don’t know if you heard about it but I think that this is the spirit of

Ayla Schafer (64:42)

This is the spirit book.

Sam Believ (64:44)

us sort of changing the world instead of going there and fighting and then your desire to be good becoming just another bad person just with a slightly different truth maybe yeah starting with ourselves and going from harmony and yeah i think that maybe they can sing some of your songs when in that ⁓ resistance

Ayla Schafer (64:49)

and then your desire to.

Ayla Schafer (65:11)

That’s such a beautiful, ⁓ symbolic, well, it was a reality, but also the symbol of that.

Ayla Schafer (65:22)

like holding, that’s the way, like holding hands with a very clear purpose, you know, like they didn’t just do that without an intention. There was a very clear purpose for liberation and singing. This is such a beautiful symbol of what is needed, a vision for what is needed in this time.

Sam Believ (65:48)

So yeah, very synchronistically. So I was so surprised when you messaged me and you said, let’s record, I’m Latvian time. I was like, are you giving me Latvian time because you think I’m Latvian and I’m in Latvia? Or it’s like, you were actually giving a concert in Riga that is so cool. I haven’t been in Latvia for five years, so maybe it’s time for me to go back. Ayla, we are slightly over an hour now. I think it was very fascinating and it was so interesting to learn about your…

Ayla Schafer (65:53)

I’m lucky, I’m always like, I’m really lucky. I’m lucky, I’m actually ⁓ in a concert in Riga, but I haven’t been lucky in five years.

Sam Believ (66:18)

your journey and your medicine journey. Any maybe last parting words, any words of guidance to the people or maybe where can they find you or where can they attend your next concerts. I know you’re traveling now and giving a lot of concerts, right?

Ayla Schafer (66:35)

Yeah, I’m coming to the end of this tour. I will be on tour again in October. And then, ⁓ yeah, maybe it’s worth to just bring into this space that I ⁓ have been very influenced from my years of being in ceremony and singing in ceremonies. And it reached a point in

Ayla Schafer (66:56)

my journey, like for many years I wasn’t singing in, you know, publicly, like that I just was, had no interest in, I was like, why would I want to do that when I can sit in ceremony and ⁓ pray and be in this incredibly sacred space? And then it just became very clear, it just became very clear, like Isla, you need to be out there and sharing your music and also, you know, unsustainable for my own body basically to be staying awake so often.

Ayla Schafer (67:25)

in ceremonies and also a deep respect or ⁓ a deep reverence for that space and.

Ayla Schafer (67:35)

Yeah, so, you know, for many reasons I now am ⁓ only really sharing in concerts, but what I, my intention is always to hold it as a ceremony. You know, ⁓ I have no interest in going back to those years when I was younger and playing to people who are drinking and not listening and being some form of entertainment.

Ayla Schafer (68:03)

Like it’s not, for me it’s not about entertainment. It’s like, okay, let’s sit together and pray and listen deeply to ourselves and listen deeply to the earth and be guided by the force ⁓ of these songs, the spirit of the songs, the spirits that come with each songs and…

Ayla Schafer (68:23)

Yeah, the power of creating these spaces, you know, especially for those who it’s maybe not right for them, or they don’t have the courage or they’re not ready or, or that’s just not actually what they need to drink medicine. It’s not for everybody. It’s not. I don’t actually believe there’s one medicine that is medicine for everybody. It’s like we are very unique and

Ayla Schafer (68:48)

can be different moments of our lives, that a different medicine is what is needed. And I see the real beauty of also bridging these spaces of being in prayer and being in sacred space together and gathering in a way of creating safe space to feel and ⁓ love and cry and sing and dance. So that’s kind of the vision and the…

Ayla Schafer (69:16)

in the intention of which I offer ⁓ with my concerts. It’s like there isn’t really a word, like a word doesn’t really exist yet of quite what this is because I don’t really feel it’s a concert. Yeah, I don’t want to label it as a ceremony. It’s, you know, it is what it is. It is what it is. It just is what it is. But yeah, people can find me. Anyone who lives in Europe might catch me in the autumn.

Sam Believ (69:45)

I think the word that can work for you is a celebration, something in between ⁓ the concert and the ceremony. For people that don’t know, it took us about three months to make this episode possible because of your busy schedule and my busy schedule, but I was totally worth the wait. I enjoyed it a lot and thank you so much for all the wisdom.

Ayla Schafer (69:58)

⁓ for ⁓ people that don’t know, it took us about three months to make this episode possible.

Ayla Schafer (70:10)

Thank you. Thank you.

Sam Believ (70:15)

and for you guys find Ayla on YouTube she has I think one of her songs is at like 25 million views now so that’s probably people that are listening to this podcast have heard your music whether they know it’s coming from you or no ⁓ but find it listen to it it’s it’s truly connected to ⁓ to the spirit to the earth and

Sam Believ (70:42)

enjoy it and it will do you a lot of good. So thank you so much, Isla.

Ayla Schafer (70:48)

Thank you, Sam.

Sam Believ (70:51)

Guys you were listening to ayahuasca podcast as always with you the host Sambiliyev ⁓ If you enjoyed this episode, please ⁓ leave us a like wherever you are listening and subscribe and I’ll see you in the next episode

In this episode of AyahuascaPodcast.com host Sam Believ has a conversation with Ryan Sprague

We touch upon subjects of breaking dependency on cannabis, conscious use of Cannabis, science of cannabinoids, relationship between Cannabis and Ayahuasca.

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to

http://www.lawayra.com

Find more about Ryan at

http://www.highlyoptimized.me

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:03)

podcast today our guest is Ryan Sprague is that correct Sprague?

ryan sprague (00:07)

Yeah, that’s correct, bro. You crushed it.

Sam Believ (00:10)

⁓ Ryan is the founder of Highly Optimized. He ⁓ runs a conscious cannabis collective Mastermind. He coaches people on intentional use of cannabis. He helps cannabis consumers break dependency ⁓ and change their relationship with this plant medicine. Ryan, welcome to the show.

ryan sprague (00:32)

Thank you so much, Sam, for having me. You know, it was so amazing getting to meet you through the IG world. One of the amazing things that technology brings about, right? We hear a lot about the struggles of technology, the quote unquote addiction to technology, but a lot of times we don’t hear about the amazing connections and the amazing things you can do with that tool. Right? Cause just like cannabis, ayahuasca, social media is just a tool. How we choose to use it says more about us than the actual tool. So super excited to be able to meet you, man, and dive in and co -create some magic on your show.

Sam Believ (01:01)

Very excited, Ryan. Something you just said very appeals to me a lot regarding plant medicines being tools. You can ⁓ take a tobacco and you can use it ancestrally and you can heal all kinds of things or you can pack it into a cigarette, add some chemicals to it and get yourself a lung cancer. We did it ⁓ with cacao, we did it with coca, we did it with…

Sam Believ (01:27)

tobacco and who knows how many more other plant medicines and we’re doing it with with with cannabis as well. So that’s that’s why that’s why you’re here today to teach us how to use it in such a way that it does not become deadly and is actually helpful. It’s kind of like, you know, you have a you have a tool it’s like a knife and you can cook a nice dinner and make a salad or you can like stamp stab somebody in the heart. So before we get into conscious cannabis use.

ryan sprague (01:52)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (01:57)

Talk to us about your history with cannabis, like what brought you in it and how did you navigate it and how did you find ⁓ the right way to use it.

ryan sprague (01:59)

Mm.

ryan sprague (02:06)

Yeah. Great question, Sam. I think this is a great context builder ⁓ because in the world of plant medicine today, I imagine that many people look at me and they’re like, how did this kid get attached to cannabis like that? Why cannabis rather than ayahuasca or five MEO or peyote or even tobacco or anything. Right. And I do, I am a big fan of tobacco as well, but, but it all started for me when I was 16 ⁓ and I was struggling with anxiety symptoms and I went to the doctor, the guy in the white lab coat that I had been.

ryan sprague (02:34)

You know, kind of conditioned to trust at face value. And he met with me for all of five minutes and then told me that I had anxiety, not that I was experiencing symptoms of anxiety, but that I had it. So what started happening was I started forming a story around what it meant to be someone that lives with anxiety. What I couldn’t do, what I could do. And I started being boxed in to my reality, right? someone with anxiety couldn’t get on stage. Someone with anxiety couldn’t have a podcast. Right. And I was a musician at this time too.

ryan sprague (03:04)

And it definitely started the mess of my head when it came to getting on stage and stuff. And so as I was trying these pharmaceuticals out that the doctor was prescribing to me, how I would describe the experience in language that I would use today is that all these pharmaceuticals did was made me feel less connected to myself, more disconnected. And so one day I was talking to a friend while we were playing guitar and you know, I was telling him about what I had been experiencing, you know, stage fright, things like that. And he was like, you know, man, it sounds like what you’re experiencing.

ryan sprague (03:34)

I have a similar thing and I find cannabis helps me a lot. And at that point, man, like I had completely bought into all the propaganda around cannabis. I had never done any drugs. I had never drank anything. And so I just said no for a little while, but as these pharmaceuticals, right. Kept going into my system and I kept finding over and over again, they weren’t working. I started to kind of want to throw a hail Mary. And so one day I was like, you know what? Screw it. You know, I’m going to try this and if it works awesome.

ryan sprague (04:02)

So I tried it and then, you know, the first couple of times you’re trying to figure out like, what even is this experience? But it was the third time that I tried it where how I would describe the experience in language today, once again, is that for the first time in about a year and a half, since I had been experiencing these symptoms, I felt more connected to myself ⁓ and what happened. And again, I had no words for this when it happened, but now I can, you know, kind of reverse engineer it. What happened was I became the observer in that third experience.

ryan sprague (04:29)

I realized that I was not my thoughts. I realized I didn’t have anxiety. I realized that was just someone experiencing certain symptoms of anxiety or that could be called anxiety. So I then find this plant that really helps me. And because of that point, I didn’t know anything that I know today. I just figured there’s something wrong with me. This thing helps me. So I must need more of that all the time to feel better. And so this is a classic trap that a lot of people fall into, right? You know, there’s an analogy I like to use here where.

ryan sprague (04:59)

It’s almost like there’s a finger pointing you towards the moon or sun, the moon or sun being self actualization, self realization, becoming your best self, whatever you want to call that. Right. But what ends up happening is instead of actually looking at the finger and looking at where it’s pointing, we just ended up worshiping the finger itself. And that’s what happened with cannabis. Right. I failed to understand at that young age that all the plant was showing me was what was already possible already within me.

ryan sprague (05:25)

beyond the current limitations, limiting beliefs, unconscious stories, et cetera, that I had been kind of, I wore a virus in my mind, right. At that point. And so as the years continued now, I’m about 18 connecting with a lot of cannabis, right. Completely unaware of dependent patterns, addictive tendencies, things like that. And the plant was still helping me and quite a bit actually. And I got into school for psychology because after I started with my own mental state, I was like, really fascinated with the operating system that is the human mind and the kind of like.

ryan sprague (05:55)

You know, frags that can get put into it, right? The viruses, things like that. So I get into school for psychology and at this age, Sam, I was pretty unhealthy, right? I was like most 18 year olds, right? I had started drinking alcohol. I was smoking cigarettes. I was eating a lot of Celeste pizzas, right? I always joke that when I stopped eating Celeste pizzas, that company definitely noticed, right? So one day I wake up and I go to go to the bathroom and I start peeing blood and I have no idea why. So I run upstairs and I tell my dad and he rushes me to the hospital.

ryan sprague (06:24)

And when we’re on the way to the hospital, he asks me, son, I just got to know, are you doing drugs? And I said, no, but I am connecting with a lot of cannabis. And this was kind of like, ⁓ my dad had always been like, I just say no type guy. He wasn’t like strongly against it, but he definitely wasn’t forward. He was kind of in the sea of indifference in the middle. But when I told him this, right, when I said, yeah, I am connected with a lot of cannabis, I saw him have a sigh of relief out of the corner of my eye. And that was very interesting to me because I had had this like doomsday scenario of what would happen if my dad found out I use utilize cannabis.

ryan sprague (06:54)

But in this like very anxious state I was in, right? Like peeing blood and not knowing why I just wanted to tell the truth. Cause I didn’t know, did it have an interplay? I have no idea. But when I saw him in the side relief, I thought that was interesting. So we go to the hospital and I start showing them a lot of the research I’ve been doing on cannabis. I’ve been my laptop to the hospital. I was there for like five days. Ended up being a benign system. My kidney that had broken open and just put blood into my urine. Luckily it wasn’t cancer or anything crazy, but it definitely pattern interrupt me, you know? So when I was sitting there showing my dad, all this info, I was showing him.

ryan sprague (07:24)

documentaries like leaf, ⁓ by Dr. William Courtney, great documentary. It’s pretty old. Now it was out in like 2011, but it’s all about this doctor, Dr. William Courtney, who meets this patient with something like eight to 11 autoimmune disorders. ⁓ And she’s basically on death’s doorstep and he starts having your juice raw cannabis leaves. So no intoxicating properties, right? You’re not getting high, nothing. You’re just getting a lot of what’s called THCA. And over the course of about six months or maybe a year right around there.

ryan sprague (07:50)

He put all eight to 11 of her autoimmune disorders into remission. And then at the end of the video, they get married. It’s really cool. Right. Now they do the work together. So I was showing him these things and to his credit, he had no cognitive dissonance. He was like, wow, I guess I didn’t know what I didn’t know. If this plant’s helping you, I support you. Right. Cause he had known what I went through with anxiety. So a couple of years later, I ended up, ⁓ going to the Boston freedom rally, which here in Massachusetts is a big public display of disobedience. Right. So.

ryan sprague (08:18)

Basically, it was a bunch bigger deal before cannabis was legal here, but you’d all go into the city. You’d, you know, collect on the green and you’d all connect with cannabis. And as long as you weren’t selling anything or being an idiot, the cops wouldn’t bother you. So I’m there and I hear this guy yelling who wants to make butter with me. So I walk over to this little canopy tent ⁓ and he’s passing out these pamphlets for a new cannabis school, opening up five minutes from where I was living at that point. So I run home and I tell my dad, right, this is the first like, fuck yes, Sam that I ever felt for my heart.

ryan sprague (08:45)

And so I run home, I tell my dad, I’m like, Hey, can you help me with tuition? And he says, I’ll do one better. I’ll actually go with you. I’m really excited to learn about what you’re interested in. You know, my dad was always a big supporter, even if he wasn’t, you know, doing or connecting with cannabis, he was really excited to learn more about it. So we start going to the school together and you know, right off the bat, I knew like, this is what I want to do with the rest of my life. I didn’t know what I wanted to do, whether it was working in the industry, et cetera. But I started learning a lot about regenerative agriculture, Korean natural farming.

ryan sprague (09:13)

the pharmacology of cannabis, the science, the medical, and all the different facets of it. And I just started really soaking it up and I convinced my dad to buy me a grow kit right before we started at the school. And our first harvest was pretty terrible to be honest. And, so when I told him about the school, he was like, well, Hey, we just invested in this grow kit. Why don’t I invest in you to learn how to do this the proper way? So I ended up interning for the school, working for them. And, in 2014, I decided to go to my first music festival.

ryan sprague (09:40)

And at this point, Sam, I had never tried any other medicine. I had still bought another propaganda around these other medicines, but not cannabis. And so I had heard a lot about MDMA ⁓ and I did some research and I realized it’s a heart opener. I had no idea what that meant as a 23 year old, but I was like, all right, I guess we’ll figure it out. So two of my friends and I went out to Vegas and we had never connected with MDMA before we had gone to a lot of clubs and stuff and just seen a very ⁓ interesting depiction of what MDMA was. So we had certain beliefs around it.

ryan sprague (10:09)

But when we were going out there, we were like, why not try it? So we tried and we’re in the middle of this gigantic crowd listening to whatever artist was on. And I feel this really interesting pull towards my dad. Didn’t know really what it was, but I just knew there was an interesting feeling. So when I get home, right. I ended up realizing my dad told me that right before I got home, he had gone to the doctor for a lung pain he was having and realized he had terminal cancer stage four terminal cancer. And so when I was at the school, right. And a couple of years before.

ryan sprague (10:39)

I had been actually working intimately with patients in helping them treat and cure their cancer with the assistance of cannabis, specifically a substance called RSO Rick Simpson oil, or it’s more professional name in the cannabis industry, FECO full extract cannabis oil. And for anyone that hasn’t heard about this, you can go on PubMed research how THC kills cancer cells. It’s pretty out there and in the open now. So my dad elected not to take treatment, chemo and radiation, et cetera.

ryan sprague (11:04)

And so, you know, I knew he wasn’t going to survive this because he was still wanting to smoke cigarettes and drink Coca -Cola and eat steak and cheese subs and all the things that gave him cancer. But, you know, at that moment, I had a kind of fork in the road experience ⁓ where I was like, do I love my dad for who he’s been my whole life, supportive, amazing, loving, albeit unhealthy, or do I try to change him into who I think he should be? So maybe I can keep him around longer, but also potentially ruin his quality of life by trying to change his diet and all these things.

ryan sprague (11:33)

So I luckily chose the first path and I decided to be like, you know what dad, whatever you need support with, let me know. So after a couple of weeks, he started experiencing some pretty severe pain in his lungs and it has already spread to his brain. It was all throughout his body. So I started convincing him because at this point he had still never connected with cannabis. Sam, right? So I started convincing him like dad, you know, we went to the school together. We learned about this. At least we can increase your quality of life. Right. So he finally agrees reluctantly.

ryan sprague (12:00)

⁓ he was a big fan of control in his life. He didn’t like altering his state of consciousness. So I would sit with him while I was administering this RSO, because here’s someone who’s never connected with cannabis. And now they’re like connecting with the strongest form on planet earth. And this Sam is when I really discovered the spiritual powers of cannabis, the real power in my opinion, like, yes, it’s amazing. They can help with so many health conditions. Yes. It’s amazing that it can increase our mood, right? And, you know, reduce anxiety and help depression and these kinds of things. But for me, none of that.

ryan sprague (12:29)

Everything paled in comparison to what I discovered ⁓ because I thought I knew my dad really well. You know, I’m an only child and you know, I, he, we had gone to breakfast every Sunday, my whole life gone to car shows. I mean, we were very close, but all of a sudden I started ministering this medicine and I see a totally different side of my dad come out a side that was much more infinite. And my dad was not really a spiritual person, but a side of him came forth that was much more spiritual. I mean, he wouldn’t have called it that, but that’s how I can recall it now. And.

ryan sprague (12:57)

You know, what was happening was he was able to look at death as a celebration of the graduation instead of something that was challenging and an ending. It was more like he was able to look at it like the beginning of a new chapter, right? And the sea of infinite chapters that is our life, right? Or is our existence in this infinite reality. And so during that time, I got to watch him create closure with his grandchildren, with his other children from previous marriages with me, my mother, but most importantly, his own mortality.

ryan sprague (13:23)

And so he was given until October. He was diagnosed in July. He was given until October that following year. He had small cell carcinoma was very intense and aggressive. He ended up lasting all the way till the following June. And when we were getting his scans back, whose tumors were slowing their growth every single time he got a scan back, they were still there, right? They were still growing, but they were slowing their growth quite a bit. And so after he passed, you know, I was so grateful that I got to have that time with my dad. And I don’t know if I ever would have had that time with my dad, if it weren’t for cannabis.

ryan sprague (13:51)

I know it wouldn’t have been the exact same, put it that way. I can’t go back and try it a different way. But after that, I really decided to make this my life’s work, you know, not just teaching people how to grow and the things that a lot of people think I do, right. Which I do do, but the more spiritual side of like this plant can really help you like open up to who and what you truly are. So I go from there into the cannabis industry. I work with 5 ,000 medical patients that were five years with a range of different, you know, ⁓ modalities, holistic health coaching, et cetera. And then in 2019.

ryan sprague (14:19)

I had a great opportunity where a corporation bought out the dispensary I worked at. ⁓ And, you know, Sam, like, I imagine you’ll understand what I mean here. When a cannabis dispensary starts looking and feeling like an Apple store, it’s time for me to get the hell out of there. You know, that’s what I tried to avoid my whole life, that corporate, corporate grind, that corporate feel. And so at the time I was playing a victim about it. I was really pissed that this company had come in and taken over our dispensary because, you know, we had a really good thing going. Right. But I’m very grateful to them.

ryan sprague (14:49)

In hindsight, because if it weren’t for them coming in and doing so many things that were out of alignment with me, I don’t know if I ever would have left that dispensary and had the courage to start my own business. But because of all that pent up frustration, I was like, you know what? I’m going to do my own thing. Had no idea, Sam, what I was doing. No idea. I have no business background, nothing. So I ended up starting the highly optimized podcast in 2019. I ended up going through this big awakening out in Vegas when I went to MJ biz con. And what happened was I ended up connecting with some MDMA, ⁓ with my partner.

ryan sprague (15:18)

And I had a big breakthrough that I wasn’t taking ownership over my life. ⁓ And when I got back, right, when I was flying back on the plane, I started to ask my soul, like, where is this coming from? You know, this, this ability for me to play a victim in my life and all this stuff that I’m feeling right now. ⁓ And the plant was like, well, a lot of it is, you know, my soul was like, a lot of it is you numbing out with cannabis every night. You know, you come home from this job with all the frustration necessary to make a change and you’re just coming home and numbing out. That’s not respecting the plant and it’s not respecting yourself.

ryan sprague (15:48)

And so when I came back, I decided to take a three month break from cannabis. And this was the first break I had taken in 10 plus years. I was not an all day consumer. I would just smoke at night when I got home. And that was what made it a little bit harder for me to, to realize this because in my mind, I was like, no, I’m vaporizing only once a night. I’m connecting with my own homegrown cannabis. It’s organic, all the logical things that tell me everything’s fine. But my soul just checked me, you know? And so ⁓ came back, took that three month break for the first six weeks really felt like, cannabis did this to me. Cannabis is addictive.

ryan sprague (16:18)

And then I realized my, my second awakening, which was no, ⁓ I’ve worked with over 5 ,000 people in this space and not everyone’s addicted. So it’s not objective. So what’s going on inside of me, this led me to these dependent patterns. And that’s when I actually started diving into trauma and started creating awareness around that. And then after about three months, I decided to actually create an experiment for myself. I was like, you know, I was doing a lot of research on cannabis and remembering what it did with my dad. And I decided, you know what, what if I could actually use cannabis to tap me deeper into my trauma?

ryan sprague (16:47)

and start actually relieving myself of all this weight I’m carrying. So I started this trend where I would only connect with cannabis on weekends because my pattern had been in them out on weekdays. So I ended up only connecting on weekends and I have a creating intention, creating a ceremonial container. I had no idea what I was doing. I was just guessing, right? Based on what I thought would help me because I was already intentional with my health, my sleep and all these other things. And so all of a sudden my life started shifting so hard before I knew it.

ryan sprague (17:13)

And we can get into any one of these components in greater detail if you want, but not to keep talking too long. Basically what happened was I allowed cannabis to help me manifest the entire life I live today from going on, Aubrey Marcus to being personal friends of Paul check to having the entire program to having the largest collection of cannabis data on the internet, to having a worldwide community. All of this was assisted in manifesting with cannabis. So it’s been an absolutely amazing journey, man. There’s a lot more that goes into it, but I’ll stop there for now.

Sam Believ (17:35)

Thank you.

ryan sprague (17:39)

⁓ really amazing to be able to relive that because it’s really the hero’s journey as I see it. And there’s a lot of components in there that we can dive into with regards to what I’ve learned about cannabis addiction. ⁓ and you know, all the other facets as well.

Sam Believ (17:52)

It’s great to interview you Ryan because I ask one question and you just keep doing it pretty much do the entire podcast. I mean that’s probably because you’re a podcast host yourself and you refined your story. That’s great. First of all, my condolences to your dad’s passing but at the same time I think the way you dealt with it and for your dad’s good as well using this medicine to help him.

ryan sprague (17:53)

Yeah. ⁓

ryan sprague (18:02)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (18:18)

which kind of like you mentioned so many things I’ll just touch upon them and we’ll see where we take it from here but about you know death being a spiritual process ⁓ it’s very interesting I interviewed few people on like near -death experiences and stuff like that so people think that ⁓ you know spirituality is that thing but in the end when you’re born and when you die and sometime in the middle it is all a spiritual process so

Sam Believ (18:45)

It’s so great when you can guide somebody through their death with that. And I think for this progression you went through from like, it’s a drug, no, it’s a medicine. Okay, it does something to my brain, kind of scientific approach, reading studies. And then you go the full circle where like, okay, there’s a spiritual aspect to it. It happened to me with ayahuasca as well.

ryan sprague (19:00)

Mm -hmm.

Sam Believ (19:08)

absolutely cookie cutter same like yeah, you know, I’m depressed. Let me just take it. Maybe we’ll like reset my brain serotonin, whatever ⁓ be the enough and then all of a sudden when you start working with and you start noticing those synchronicities and you mentioned a few as well when you feel like life is guiding you like, okay, you know what there’s there’s a spiritual side to those things. So, ⁓

Sam Believ (19:33)

many things you touched upon but let’s talk about the spiritual side of cannabis. Have you met the spirit of the cannabis? What do you see it like? What is it? And maybe if you know something about it, why does the spirit of cannabis ⁓ not really be friendly with the spirit of ayahuasca? I don’t know if you heard anything about that.

ryan sprague (19:55)

I have man. So, you know, it’s really funny, man. So the spirit of cannabis is the best archetype I could relate it to is the jester. And, you know, when you look at the tarot deck, there’s a very good reason why the jester is the final archetype in the tarot deck, because to the naked eye, the jester looks like just a silly goose, right? Just like a goofy, you know, silly kind of like not taken seriously type individual, but what the layman’s individual will not understand or may fail to understand about the jester.

ryan sprague (20:25)

Is that the jester is actually a very high level of consciousness because if you look at the Bible, if you look at all these different things, right? Laughter is the best medicine. If you want to enter the kingdom of heaven, you must first enter the mind of a child. Right? So when you look at the jester, he’s the only one in the kingdom, right? That is allowed to make fun of the king, not because he’s just allowed to it because he knows how to do it in a way where the king is able to save face. And also at the same time, the crowd is able to actually, ⁓

ryan sprague (20:54)

transmute some of their frustration towards the king. So the jester is extremely beneficial in a community because ⁓ without him or her, what’s going to happen is undoubtedly the, the citizens of that country or that city or that, you know, whatever are going to start to grow resentment against the king because they’re not going to see the king as one of them. So when the jester is able to court himself right around the king and with the people there, it allows the king or the queen or whatever royalty is there to be seen as more ⁓ human. Right. And so.

ryan sprague (21:24)

For me, cannabis is what allows life to be ⁓ seen in a totally different way. And what I mean by that is that while medicines like five MEO or peyote, or I’m sure I wasco as well can send you very deep and very out, right. Cannabis on the other hand, allows you to still be part of reality, like still be fully your human self, but to see something different within it. And for me, I’ve had this download that for me personally, I’m not sure if this resonates with everyone, but.

ryan sprague (21:54)

For me personally, if I know that I’ve been there wherever there is for infinity and I’ll be there for infinity. Well, I’m only here in this meat suit for a finite amount of time. And so for me, I’ve found cannabis to be really beneficial to allow my spirit side and my humanness to integrate into one being and also allow me to realize that I’m just inhabiting this human body for a little while and that it’s actually hilarious, right? Like life is hysterical, right? Have you ever seen a platypus before it’s hysterical and those are the kinds of things that.

ryan sprague (22:23)

cannabis reminds you of, right? They seem stupid to the naked eye, but when you really tap into it, laughter is the best medicine. It’s one of the highest forms of consciousness you can possibly have to be able to laugh at yourself, to be able to laugh at the hilarity of life. And so that’s one of the things that I really feel the cannabis spirit is all about is about allowing us to enter the mind of a child again and realize like, dude, this is awesome. First of all, and this is also hilarious, right? That we’re on this planet.

ryan sprague (22:49)

A lot of us don’t even believe there is a God, right? Or creator or anything. And that’s okay. No judgment. ⁓ Right. But some of us are attached to that and there’s all these different sides and different things. And at the end of the day, we all come from just one being. And at the same time, we also have individual cells within our bodies that are kind of like the as within, so without type thing, right? So cannabis allows you to have these realizations about your spirit side, but also the humanist and how they come together. So for me, that’s how I see the camp, the spirit of cannabis. And I’ve met the spirit of cannabis many times.

ryan sprague (23:19)

And I can always tell when I’m meeting her because you know, she’ll come, she’s very like, I don’t know if this is just my brain making this, but she’ll be very green. She’ll be very luscious, but she’s not super old. She’s probably in her like thirties forties is what I’ve noticed. At least the depiction has come to me and she’s always ready to just take whatever challenge you’re working through and make you laugh about it, you know, and help you see it as an opportunity, help you what I call flip the script on it, right? See it from a new perspective. And I really feel like that’s what cannabis strives and.

ryan sprague (23:48)

really is amazing at doing ⁓ because let’s say you take five grams of mushrooms, right? You’re going to get a perspective shift, but you’re probably going to have to wait until you come back down to ground level to actually make sense of that and try to integrate it. Whereas cannabis, you can connect with some cannabis, get what I call a high idea, right? Open up your phone, immediately take integrative action on it and go back into your ceremony. So for me, I find it’s also very practical for most people in the world right now, because again, ayahuasca, these other medicines are fantastic.

ryan sprague (24:17)

But a lot of people can’t afford to go to the jungle. They may have a family or work they can’t take time away from, but they can grow a plant in their backyard. They can utilize intention and ceremony and learn how to, you know, uncover some of these unconscious blocks that are stopping them from being their best self. And so that’s what I would say the spirit of cannabis is for me. ⁓ And, you know, it’s funny, you bring up the ayahuasca and cannabis thing because, you know, for me, obviously I told you before we started, I have yet to sit with ayahuasca.

ryan sprague (24:43)

But I have a really good buddy who’s an Iowa scare. His name’s Hamilton Souther. He runs blue Morpho down in Peru. And so I asked him about this, you know, cause I’d heard a lot about it and I was like, Hey man, you know, what’s all this stuff I hear about cannabis and I was not enjoying each other or being jealous spirits and whatnot. And what his response was, was dude, that’s human shit, man. He’s like, listen, you know, at the end of the day, many lineages do not entertain cannabis in the I was space, not because they know cannabis to be bad here.

ryan sprague (25:13)

It’s just not part of their lineage. They’ve had a proven process for thousands of years. Why are they going to shift that? Right. But for him, he went down from America about 25 years ago. And so he had a different background, right. And he actually refound cannabis where ⁓ basically he had gotten in a motorcycle accident down in Peru ⁓ and he had some nerve damage. And so he was going through a lot of pain and he was laying in bed one day. And one of the people that worked at the retreat center that he was training that came in.

ryan sprague (25:42)

And was asking him Hamilton, how you doing? And he was saying, man, I’m going through a lot of pain right now. And they were like, why don’t you use cannabis? And he was like, cannabis. He’s like, should I use to smoke in college? He’s like, that’s just a silly plan. Like, no, I’m here to do ayahuasca and whatnot. Like, could that help me? And they’re like, no, actually cannabis is going to help a lot more with nerve pain. ⁓ He was like, okay. So he tries it, right? He’s laying in bed, unable to move. He tries it. And he’s like, dude, I went just as deep as ayahuasca. Like it changed my life forever.

ryan sprague (26:09)

And that’s when he started actually combining cannabis into ayahuasca sessions. And so he practices kind of what the Santo Dime, ⁓ practice with cannabis and ayahuasca together. And he’s found in his subjective experience that they get along just great. So who knows really what it is, right? Are these two spirits really against each other is the belief that they are right then manifesting that in the experience. I’m not sure, right? I’ll have to connect with ayahuasca and cannabis together to let you know, but that’s my, that’s my feeling on it without have tried ayahuasca.

ryan sprague (26:37)

And that’s what I’ve heard from Hamilton and for many people to practice the Santo Dime approach. I have many friends that have gone to that approach and you know, they don’t always include cannabis, right? It’s not like a given, but there are certain reasons why they would include cannabis into that picture. And so that’s for me, what I choose to believe that they’re not jealous at all. That as long as you use intention and you’re clear on what you’re doing, why you’re doing it, et cetera, that they ultimately just want to help you get to what your goal is. And yeah, they may, it may be a challenging experience, but it’s all there to help you, you know, if you can see it that way.

Sam Believ (27:06)

Yeah, we had the I .S. Hamilton on the podcast as well. We spoke about it and ⁓ yeah, it’s interesting because those are very, two very strong, very similar looking spirit presences, right? Like they all describe this green and luscious and flowery and feminine. So the jealousy, maybe it comes like, you know, having ⁓ two women at the same kitchen. It’s a bit of a…

ryan sprague (27:15)

I’m going to go ahead and turn it off.

ryan sprague (27:18)

Yeah.

ryan sprague (27:27)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (27:29)

So maybe they can have a good relationship if whatever the container is, you know, if ⁓ whatever the container is can make them peaceful. But what we do notice is people that smoke a lot of weed when they come to the retreat, they can’t connect to ayahuasca. So like they require larger doses and they just can’t sort of break through. So, but maybe when you do connect and after that relationship is established, maybe then they can start working together. So I know how jealous they are.

Sam Believ (27:59)

or how it is specifically but it definitely helps to quit weed for you know I invited you to the wire as well I’m sure you’re gonna come so you’ll have to do one of your weed fasts for at least a week and then after you connect maybe after the retreat you can smoke and you you can tell me what what you learn about the spirits I’m not a big big big weed guy I do like it and I do use it consciously really rarely but very consciously and I’m mostly a fan

ryan sprague (28:10)

⁓ Yes.

Sam Believ (28:27)

But you mentioned the tools, right? In the toolbox. And I hope that, you know, medicines and plant spirits are not going to get offended for calling them tools. But it’s like you have, ⁓ you have ayahuasca, right? And you do it and you break through and you learn all those things. But then let’s say you’re back in the real world and you’re getting a little stressed and things are not going your way. You can, you know, work with some mushrooms and, but let’s say you have.

Sam Believ (28:51)

muscle pain you work with some cannabis and those are tools those are amazing tools and you can have your own toolbox and use them accordingly as long as it’s conscious and intentional so let’s talk about that you know how did you go from abusing cannabis to then using it consciously and intentionally to now coming to the point where you have this

Sam Believ (29:18)

mastermind where you not only do it yourself but you teach people how to change their relationship with cannabis. So tell us maybe about that progression also how might it look like for someone to be using cannabis consciously.

ryan sprague (29:34)

Definitely do that. I love this question. So for me, you know, I shared a little bit about it for me. It was ⁓ realizing ⁓ the first realization was that I had been numbing out my emotions with cannabis, right? And for me, I was in the industry as cringy as this is people that dispensary called me we Jesus. So I had built an identity around this cannabis consumer version of me. So when I went through this awakening,

ryan sprague (29:59)

And it really was an awakening. I’m not sure whether it were called a Kundalini awakening. I’m not sure when you get those qualitative things going on. I have no idea what happened. It was a shift, right? And so what happened was the first thing was I was able to take accountability and ownership over the fact that, wow. I am utilizing this tool in a incorrect manner for what I’m actually looking for, for what my soul is actually looking to do and be in this lifetime. I’m not, I’m not in right relationship with this plant. And so at first I have that awareness.

ryan sprague (30:27)

And my victim mentality kicks in and I’m like, the plant did this to me. Right. And that’s where a lot of people are at, right? They think they’re really addicted to cannabis, that cannabis is, you know, ⁓ dependent forming and all these things. And what happened was after about six weeks, I had my second kind of like hit to that awakening, which was, wait a minute. If it was addictive for everyone, if it was objectively addictive, then everyone I would have worked with would have been addicted to it. But I knew that wasn’t the case.

ryan sprague (30:55)

So then I started actually diving in and figuring out like, you know, what is it that’s leading to this? And then I started realizing like, wait, the plant never held a gun to my head and forced me to connect with it. So cannabis is not the addiction, right? The addiction to cannabis that I was experiencing was not my problem. It was just the sign that there was a problem going on inside of me because what I realized through my time and the next year of connecting with it consciously with intentional, we’ll get into what that looks like, but.

ryan sprague (31:23)

connecting with it consciously and with intention. What I realized was that actually the, the real problem were the feelings of discomfort living within me, stemming from traumas that were unconscious to me. ⁓ And that what I had been utilizing cannabis for was to just try to cover those things up. But actually what the plan is meant to do is help you dive directly into those. Because when you’re in your normal operating system as a human being, like right now for me and you Sam, and for most people listening, you’re going to be in a beta brainwave state.

ryan sprague (31:53)

You’re going to have your ego, your default mode network doing their best to quote unquote, protect you right from danger. But the challenge with these systems is that they’re not, the information is fractionalized. They don’t see the full totality of your experience. So they end up thinking that anything uncomfortable for you is danger, right? Don’t let them feel that. So the ego and default mode network, I don’t see them as the enemy. I just see them as doing their job. But what happens is very similar to a computer, especially a PC. What happens is let’s say you’re going around.

ryan sprague (32:22)

And you’re going on websites and you get a virus, right? And you’re like, ⁓ that’s not good. Right. But you can’t really figure out what’s going on. You just know your computer is going slower. You’re not really sure. Right. And the analogy here would be like, you know, you’re, you’re just smoking more and more cannabis. You’re not sure what’s going on, but you just have this incessant feeling inside of you that you need to smoke more and more, right. Or drink more coffee or smoke more tobacco or insert coping strategy here. Right. So you’re having trouble figuring out what is this thing. Now, when you’re in your typical operating system,

ryan sprague (32:51)

It’s very easy to think, the computer is the problem, right? It’s just going slow. Maybe I need a new computer. And the analogy here would be, you know what? Cannabis must be addictive because I’m smoking more and more cannabis and cannabis must be the issue. But in reality, the problem is that you can’t see the real problem because your ego and default mode network are protecting you from it. Right. So in order to actually get into there, you must go kind of into safe mode, right? Like when you have a virus on a PC, you don’t try to fix it from the normal operating system.

ryan sprague (33:21)

You shut off your computer, you enter safe mode, right? And the analogy for this is like the safe mode is kind of when your ego and default mode network are offline. And so now with cannabis, right? You’re able to get out of that beta brainwave state and access alpha and theta. Now alpha is great for the flow state, but theta are the brain waves I want to bring attention to because what theta waves are, are the actual brain waves that hypnosis works with when they’re hypnotizing people. And so they are the direct brainwave of the subconscious.

ryan sprague (33:51)

So we know right from all the research out these days that our traumas, our challenges are stored in our subconscious. So Albert Einstein has a great quote. You can’t solve a problem from the same level of thinking that created the problem. And so what a lot of people try to do is they try to figure out their problem from the problem state of mind, and that’s not going to work. And so what ends up happening is in a very logical way, people end up believing the cannabis is this problem for them. But in reality, even if they break their quote unquote addiction to it,

ryan sprague (34:19)

And they don’t handle that trauma underneath. They’re just going to find another thing to get addicted to. Now, maybe it’s a quote unquote healthier thing like exercise until they get tendonitis and have injuries. But again, at the end of the day, for me, life is not about surviving. It’s about thriving, you know, and this is my problem. I have an AA and NA and all these different addiction programs is that they look at the substance as the problem, but all that does is make someone fucking terrified to ever be around it again. Right.

ryan sprague (34:46)

And again, like for anyone who’s done AA or NA, I’m not knocking your experience with it, but for me as an individual, it didn’t resonate because for me, true freedom is not abstinence. Abstinence in my mind is just another addiction, right? How many people do we know that form a whole identity around being sober? Right? And so at the end of the day, true freedom for me is being able to in the moment, know if it’s a calling or a craving and act accordingly in alignment with your soul. And so for me, you know, what I really dove into was that

ryan sprague (35:14)

Once I was able to access this theta brainwave state and know what to do with it. I was actually able to feel that trauma and heal it because all we need to do to heal it is feel it. Right. And it’s kind of like that, that really interesting paradox for most human beings, because when we’re going through this problem on a daily basis, we must think, you know, my God, we need so many things to fix this. Right. We need to go to therapy. We need to work with coaches and those things can help. Like I’m a coach. I do that stuff. Right. But the reason I work with cannabis with my clients is because.

ryan sprague (35:43)

For me personally, you know, time is the most finite resource that we have, and it’s also the most valuable. And so for me, if I was looking to heal a trauma and I had choices between, do I want to go to talk therapy or do I want to include a plant medicine and talk therapy into it? I would always choose the latter because for talk therapy, once again, you’re trying to solve the problem from the level of thinking that created it. Whereas if you connect with cannabis, go in and create awareness, right? Get ideas. Then you can come back and talk about it.

ryan sprague (36:12)

And it’s much more efficient, ⁓ right? I can get clients from completely traumatized States to feeling really good in their body within a couple of months now, you know? And again, like this is not everyone’s path. I never want anyone to hear this and go, my God, this must be right for me. Cause just like ayahuasca is not the perfect medicine for everyone. Cannabis is not either. Right. Doesn’t mean it’s not a great medicine. It just means that the same way that, you know, you might not like orange juice. Doesn’t mean orange juice is objectively bad. It’s just not Sam’s flavor of juice. Right. And so.

ryan sprague (36:41)

That’s a lot of what I learned in my experience and now what I teach people. And when you look at intentional and conscious use for me, that’s being aware of what you’re doing, why you’re doing it and what you’re looking to get out of it. Right. So when you have those three things, you’re practicing being more self -aware and that’s really what cannabis does too. And, and, and many plant medicines, right? I think all of them do that. But at the end of the day, these, these plants that I imagine you’ll understand this and resonate with it. These plants are not.

ryan sprague (37:11)

here to fix you. They’re not here to, they don’t want to be worshiped. They want to be respected. They want to be held in reverence, but they don’t want to be worshiped like they’re the healer, right? They want to be in a co -communicative and co -creative relationship with you. They want to be able to give you some ideas, right? Some downloads, some awareness, feel some stuff, and then they want you to go out and provide the other 50 % of the equation, which is integration. And so a lot of what we do now is focused on allowing people to learn how to set really proper intentions.

ryan sprague (37:40)

Cause a lot of people, right. They’ll start an intention. Like I don’t want to be upset anymore. And it’s like, you know what the universe is hearing. I want more of ⁓ being upset, right? Because when you state things in the negated point of view, you’re focusing on what you don’t want. And that’s the problem with our language. And a big part of what I do in my coaching work is help people really create affirmative language in their life, right? That looks at where they want to go, not where they don’t want to come from. And so the end of the day, a lot of that is based on, you know, understanding how language works, allowing people to create intention.

ryan sprague (38:10)

Allowing them to understand how to create a ceremonial container and a lot of the ceremonies we have in connect with cannabis are all combining different self development exercises and different modalities with cannabis, you know, from meditation and breath work, pretty basic to musical therapy, ⁓ to connection exercises and intimacy work to inner child work, somatic experiencing, story work, natural trauma work. We dive into all this stuff with cannabis. And that’s really what I’ve learned is that if someone is able to take accountability.

ryan sprague (38:38)

Over the fact that cannabis never held the gun to their head. Stop blaming the plant for why you’re addicted. You’re not addicted to cannabis. You’re addicted to getting away from your trauma and the same way that you learn to get away from it, right? Unconsciously, you can actually choose to go directly into that and heal those traumas in a matter of minutes in many cases and stop a pattern that’s been in you for potentially 10 years, you know, and when people start being able to find out how to give themselves comfort, right? How to heal themselves will naturally now when they start to feel upset, they don’t just go, my God, cannabis is all I can do.

ryan sprague (39:07)

Right. They may find if they try meditating or getting through something and they, they feel blocked. Okay. I’m going to connect with a little bit of cannabis. ⁓ that’s what’s going on now. Come back and integrate it and live a better life. So that’s really what we’re doing in the CCC and what I’ve done in my own life. To be able to go from a completely victimized disempowered state of not just with cannabis with my whole life, right? Because how we do anything is how we do everything to be able to share with people like, Hey, listen, you can believe cannabis is addictive. You can play the victim if you want.

ryan sprague (39:36)

And you know what, in the, in the microcosm that is a relationship with cannabis, eh, how big of a deal is that? Who knows? But the big deal is that if you’re doing it there, you’re doing it everywhere in your life. And where could you benefit from taking more accountability and ownership and realizing that you get to be your own guru in this lifetime. And that the same way that you’re telling yourself potentially that the whole world is to blame, none of them are to blame. Right. When you get triggered, that’s a you problem, right? That’s a opportunity for you to dive into.

ryan sprague (40:03)

So a lot of this is what we teach when it comes to intentional and conscious use of the plan.

Sam Believ (40:09)

Beautiful explanation Ryan, thank you. I like that you talk about ⁓ addiction being a symptom of a pain. I think that’s Gabor Matey, I’m a big fan of Gabor Matey. I’m trying to manifest me interviewing him for the podcast. So you guys help me manifest it. Maybe somebody knows the number. So he says, don’t look for the substance, look for the pain.

ryan sprague (40:20)

Yeah, dude.

ryan sprague (40:27)

Yes.

Sam Believ (40:34)

As you can say, anyone can be addicted to anything as long as it takes their pain away. So that’s important to look at it. I want to add something from my own understanding with working with plant medicines is I’ll use tobacco as an example here. I have a cigar that’s been gifted to me for my birthday that was a week ago. I’ll use it as an example for those who are watching a video. So it is a beautiful piece of tobacco, right? And I can just…

ryan sprague (40:54)

Nice.

Sam Believ (41:02)

Pour myself a glass of whiskey, which I don’t drink, but hypothetically, and then sit and smoke that cigar. That’s one thing. Probably some benefit might come with it. I maybe feel less stressed or maybe I’ll enjoy it and that’s all good. But if I would take this tobacco and if I would find myself time in nature, maybe even I have a bonfire, maybe even I have an intention. And I think the key word is an intention. If I then set an intention and I really…

Sam Believ (41:31)

sit down and talk to this plant spirit and I say, no, this is what I want to achieve with it. And then I go through that process instead of talking to a friend, which I like to do when I work with tobacco, but I just sit there and I meditate and I really try to communicate ⁓ through that plant medicine to, you know, the spiritual side of things. All of a sudden this becomes like an antenna, like the something that fortifies my signal and…

Sam Believ (41:59)

all of a sudden good things come from it. I had answers come to me ⁓ through tobacco, which is not psychedelic. It’s barely any shape psychoactive, you know, when you compare it to ⁓ cannabis or especially stuff like ayahuasca. But it is nevertheless a plant of power and the hierarchy of plants, it’s very high up there. So I think it’s all about that intention. So I can only imagine if somebody works with cannabis and they sit down,

ryan sprague (42:21)

Definitely.

Sam Believ (42:29)

do their own ceremony, whatever they like it, or maybe how you teach them, and then they set an intention, they’re really, really focused, that’s a totally different thing. But I love the way you explain it with the brain states. And yeah, I think that right now, interviewing you and many other people, I think that we’re forming this more holistic view on ⁓ how you can heal yourself with many different plans, many different modalities. You mentioned somatic experiencing, I interviewed…

Sam Believ (42:58)

Joshua Sylvain, the last episode, all about that. It’s just great. I think we live in such a great time where we have all those tools and we have all those challenges, but we have like everything we need to fix them. And over, I’m assuming people that listen to your podcast, who listen to my podcast, and I’ll form you this amazing, awesome worldview, which is ⁓ great to just basically help them overcome and do the work. Most importantly, which you also mentioned, you know, people need to be ready to do the work and not blame.

Sam Believ (43:27)

the plant or the government or whatever they want to blame like you know you’re the only one to blame you can fix everything so let’s talk a little bit about that about doing the work ⁓ how it might look like you mentioned talk therapy in combination with the plant medicine so what do you recommend somebody you know they’re ⁓ they’re working with cannabis they are getting some information ⁓ they want to do the work what should they do?

ryan sprague (43:30)

Yeah.

ryan sprague (43:38)

Hmm.

ryan sprague (43:46)

Hmm.

ryan sprague (43:51)

Thank you.

ryan sprague (43:56)

So I’ll start from like the person that’s maybe listening to this. Who’s like, ⁓ man, I’m addicted, right? They’re still at that point, right? And I’ll kind of like traverse it through the kind of different stages that someone may be in. So the clients that come to me, right? The first archetype is someone that really believes they’re addicted to cannabis, right? And so if anyone listening right now really feels that I first want to give you, like, I want to give you grace for that, right? Like I remember when I was at that point and I understand that some of the stuff I might be saying might be triggering.

ryan sprague (44:25)

Right. And so this is the first thing to do to try this out in your own life. So the first thing you’re going to do is for the first week, don’t even try to cut back on cannabis, right? Don’t even worry about that. But the only difference you’re going to make is before you connect with the plan, all you’re going to do is you’re going to honestly ask yourself why, what is the reason I’m going to this plant? And if you’re honest with yourself, you’re going to start to see trends come out over this week. Right. So maybe you start writing down on board, ⁓ how to shoot a day at work. ⁓

ryan sprague (44:54)

I really feel good. And I wanted to celebrate whatever it is, just write that down. And over the first week, you’re going to start to notice like, ⁓ shit, it seems like 70 % of the time I’m called to connect with this plant. It seems like it’s my job. Right. So then from there you create the correlation, right? it’s my job. Right. Then from there it becomes, okay, well, what is your vision for the future of you and cannabis? Right. How do you want to connect with this plant? Right. Do you want to be just numbing out after work? Like what’s your vision for this ⁓ and who must you become to be able to enact that vision?

ryan sprague (45:24)

So a lot of this is like manifestation type stuff, right? Like really thinking into like, who am I in this world? How do I want to connect with this plant and what are my goals with it? And then from there, the last point is trying to figure out what the structure is, it’s going to support that. So maybe right, for instance, you find out that it’s your job, right? That’s leading you to unconsciously connect with the plant and numb out. And now that you’re aware of this, you have the opportunity to make a change. And that change is either one of two things. Either you find a new job or you find enjoyment of the one you’re at for now.

ryan sprague (45:54)

Right. That’s it. And so let’s say it’s a new job that you want to find. Well, now the structure would be okay. What time each day are you going to dedicate to looking for new jobs? What days are you going to dedicate to applying for these jobs? And what are you going to do with the job you’re at right now? Right. How are you going to show up there? You know, you’re a different man or a different woman in a different river now. So how are you going to show up there? So that’s what I would do if you’re full blown dependent, start figuring out what your unconscious triggers are and start creating correlations and creative vision.

ryan sprague (46:22)

And the structure for how you’re going to get to that vision. Right. And this is what we do in our clarity with cannabis course. Our first course in the CCC is we help people do that. Right. And we have weekly calls every week and things like that. But let’s say that someone is maybe coming to me. This is like the second archetype, right? They’re someone who’s connected with cannabis and they’ve, they’ve been pretty conscious with it. ⁓ but they’re not really sure what the plant does, right? They’ve never really had an addiction to it or addiction, right?

ryan sprague (46:48)

But they just, they just, I don’t know, sometimes they get like a really cool experience. Sometimes they just don’t really know what the hell’s happening. So they kind of have this like in between, right? For that kind of person, the best thing to do is to start with intention, right? Start proving to yourself over and over that this plant does work in a co -creative fashion with you. So what you can do is create an intention. Like I want to feel more relaxation on the other side of this joint, this bowl, et cetera.

ryan sprague (47:15)

And then actually start to confirm yourself with this. And this is why I love starting a confirmation journal. Right. So what I would do here is the first thing would actually be to figure out what you’re looking to get from cannabis, right? Your intention. And then from there, let’s say it’s relaxation once again, after the experience, right? You connect with the plant, you maybe work through a meditation, you maybe do some breath work, you maybe just take a walk in the woods. Maybe you just hang out and watch Netflix, right? It doesn’t matter what you want to do, right? I want to get all of this good and bad out of there. That’s just duality made in the mind. It doesn’t even exist. Right.

ryan sprague (47:45)

So once you’ve gone through the experience and you’re kind of on the tail end of it, I want you to then get into your journal and start to figure out how did this plant help you relax, right? And start to find evidence to positively confirm your own bias. Because at the end of the day, everything is happening constantly, right? There are synchronicities and signs everywhere, but most of us are just not paying attention to them. And where we put energy, where we put attention, energy flows, right? And so when we start to actually look for these signs, we start to find them. And because we’re finding them, we see more of them.

ryan sprague (48:15)

And before long, we start realizing, holy shit, I’m looking to, let’s say, be more relaxed. And after I connect with this plant, that is happening. Holy shit. That’s really wild. Now what you can do is try and experience where you don’t set an intention, right? Then dive into your journal after and ask yourself what that experience was like. ⁓ What best case scenario is just going to be kind of confusing, right? Like, I don’t really know what I got from that because I don’t know what I was looking to get from it. Worst case you could end up having a very challenging experience.

ryan sprague (48:43)

And that’s because I tell everyone that even if you don’t consciously set an intention, it’s not like an intention is not being made. It’s just whatever’s rattling around in your own conscious, right? Or your conscious mind that gets set as the intention. So what happens for a lot of people is, and this is something I want to bring attention to too, is people hit me up. Why does cannabis give me anxiety? Why does it give me paranoia? Why does it make me lazy? And the first thing I tell them is you and you alone make you who and what you are and how you show up in the world. The plant works as a mirror, as all plant medicines do.

ryan sprague (49:13)

And this is why, like you were saying, in order to experience the great power that these medicines have cannabis, ayahuasca, et cetera, it, it requires great responsibility, right? Like these are not intro type things to get into. These are like, you must take accountability for everything in your life. If you really want to benefit from these medicines, otherwise it’s just going to be a lot of back and forth where you’re blaming the plant. Then you love the plan and you’re blaming it and you’re loving it. And that’s not a healthy relationship. And the plant spirit doesn’t appreciate that either. You know, it’s like, if you’re a coach.

ryan sprague (49:42)

And you share with your client, Hey, ⁓ I want you to get this done by next week and you don’t get it done. And then you blame the coach, right? The coach is like, get the fuck out of here, dude. I gave you what you had to do. Right. So at the end of the day, you know, one of the biggest things to understand is that, you know, anxiety, paranoia, any of these undesirable results with cannabis are actually exactly why you want to be connecting with cannabis. And I want that flipping the script for people like.

ryan sprague (50:06)

The best case scenario is that you realize a distortion in your ability to recognize yourself as the one creator, right? Like everything in this world is, and you start to actually dive into that distortion, right? Whether it be anxiety, paranoia, et cetera. But what happens is because people don’t have the responsibility, they get into the experience thing and it’s going to be fun. They don’t set an intention. Maybe they’ve had a really hard day, a lot of anxious thoughts, and all of a sudden cannabis mirrors that back to them because it gets them right into their subconscious. And they go, ⁓ cannabis may be anxious. Right. And the plants like.

ryan sprague (50:36)

Dude, are you ready to be an adult? You know, like, or am I coaching an infant here? Right. And so at the end of the day, I don’t blame anyone for that distortion because we’ve never been taught how to utilize these medicines. I say often that there’s no user manual out there for cannabis or ayahuasca or anything. Right. I mean, again, there are right. If you dive in, but they’re very small pockets, you know, like this, especially with cannabis, you know, this is the most popular plant medicine, but also the most misunderstood. Many people don’t even see it as a plant medicine.

ryan sprague (51:04)

As a psychedelic, right? Even in the psychedelic community, people laugh at cannabis, right? But at the end of the day, this plan has been utilized in spiritual practice and occult practices for over 10 ,000 years. It is not new. This is not a new thing. This is more a remembering of how the world was actually working for millennia now, you know? And so that’s what I would say when it comes to, you know, really how to connect with this plan, depending on what stage you’re at, right? Whether you’re a full blown quote unquote addict, whether you’re someone who’s

ryan sprague (51:33)

Just tiptoeing in, maybe had some experiences, maybe haven’t had others, you know, regardless, that’s what I would start with. If you’re addicted, start diving into your unconscious triggers. If you’re coming in, you have a pretty healthy relationship with the plan already start creating intention and confirming your own bias and start to build this relationship with the plan. And over a very short amount of time, I’m talking typically a week, two weeks, your life will start shifting. But again, it’s not because of cannabis. It’s because you took accountability and chose to work with a really powerful teacher.

ryan sprague (52:02)

that because you took accountability, you can actually learn from, and now you’re starting to remember your own power. And that’s what these medicines want for you. They don’t want you to worship them and think that, my God, I just need more of that to access that. They want you to get the message that this is all inside of you already. And that part of this lifetime is defragging your mind from the programs, the patterns, et cetera. And like you said, what an amazing time to be living.

ryan sprague (52:28)

Because this isn’t just happening with cannabis, right? Why are people resonating with conscious cannabis? It’s not just randomly because people are getting into conscious cannabis. It’s because we’re living, we’re moving into a more conscious reality. We’re going from a third dimensional planet into a fourth dimensional planet and specifically a positively polarized fourth dimensional planet, one of love, right? One of service to others. And so as we start to get into that part of becoming fourth dimensional is taking full accountability over your experience. And so I really feel like that’s why right now the psychedelic Renaissance is

ryan sprague (52:57)

fucking exploding, right? Because people are starting to realize, holy shit, I’m carrying a lot of stuff. ⁓ But people are at different stages of being able to take accountability and ownership over that. So that’s what I would say with regards to each archetype that I work with.

Sam Believ (53:11)

Interesting. We have some people that come to Lawyra to work with ayahuasca to overcome cannabis addiction. I actually interviewed Big Bob as I call him. He’s like seven foot tall. He came ⁓ to Lawyra and quit weed ⁓ for extended amount of time and he was very happy. I interviewed him. So it’s a bit of catch 22 though because people in order to work with…

Sam Believ (53:39)

with ayahuasca they need to kind of quit abusing cannabis to then be able to connect to ayahuasca and then hopefully address that root trauma and get rid of that pattern where they need cannabis to feel good. And obviously, as you say, overcoming addiction is not just ⁓ completely ⁓ saying no to that thing forever because then it means that you’re just suppressing addiction, but then being able to, let’s say, ⁓ more…

ryan sprague (54:05)

Thank you.

Sam Believ (54:09)

more rarely work with cannabis in a more conscious way. So that sounds like a more healthy way of doing it. But let’s talk a little bit about the science. I know you know a lot about cannabis. I know you…

Sam Believ (54:23)

produce some cannabis which is highly revered revered by some of the big names in the ⁓ psychedelic industry so to speak conscious space so what what is it about cannabinoids what what what are the endocannabinoids why does it work so well in the human body

ryan sprague (54:25)

Mm. Mm.

ryan sprague (54:44)

Yeah, great question, man. So this is potentially going to be a big red pill for certain people, right? And I love sharing this info because, you know, I think when you talk a lot about spirituality, you’re going to have the science people are like, show me the science, right? And if you only talk about the science, there’s going to be the spiritual people, but I’m like, show me the spiritual side of it. When in reality, it’s both right there. There are two means of the same end. Science and spirituality are intimately connected. And that’s one of the challenges in the scientific world and the spiritual world right now is that.

ryan sprague (55:13)

both sides of bickering, not realizing they’re both talking about the same thing, just in different ways, right? Science is a very masculine way to describe these things. ⁓ Spirituality is a very feminine way. And at the same time, also our science, there’s a lot of challenges with that and we’ll get into that. ⁓ but when it comes to the endocannabinoid system, this is the system that interacts with the phyto cannabinoids found in cannabis, AKA THC, CBD, CBG, et cetera. And it’s also the largest regulatory system in our whole body.

ryan sprague (55:43)

The only system that has two way communication between mind and body. ⁓ And this system also, ⁓ it really supports different things like autonomic functions, like appetite, sleep, things like that. And also it’s, it’s, it’s really, it plays a gigantic role in balancing our nervous system. And when we think about the, the, the current problems in society, one of the biggest ones I see, and I’ve gone through myself is nervous system dysregulation, right? Chronically being up regulated in fight or flight.

ryan sprague (56:13)

When we look at what’s valued in our society, right? In terms of a core value of at least Western countries, it’s productivity. So really like the society we live in doesn’t care how healthy you are so long as you can get to work every day and produce. So because of that coffee is the favorite drug of most people and nicotine and other things that will just pump you up and keep you go, go, go, go, going. Right. And the challenge with that is that, you know, when that happens, you start to live in this state of chronic fight or flight.

ryan sprague (56:42)

Right. And it’s very damaging for the body, cortisol, adrenaline, things like that. It’s not a damaging system to be in in the morning. Right. Like, you know, there’s a natural flow you’re supposed to go through, ⁓ but you know, again, when you look at the ECS and you look at the fact that, you know, when you look at endocannabinoids, right. Anandamide two AG, et cetera. And you look at the CB one CB two receptors and the whole endocannabinoid system. And you look at the fact that in some way, shape or form somehow it just so happens that anandamide and two AG.

ryan sprague (57:11)

Right. Two of the most important compounds in the human body ⁓ that fit into the CB one and CB two receptor sites. Also have THC and CBG and CBN, the phyto -cannabinoids from the plant that fit directly into the same receptor sites. Right. Now you can’t tell me that’s by chance. That shows me as a scientist that we’ve co -evolved with this plant through millennia. Right. Now show me that system for alcohol doesn’t exist. Right. Or a lot of the things that we’ve normalized in our environment.

ryan sprague (57:41)

Doesn’t exist, right? Show me the one for coffee. It doesn’t exist, you know? And at the end of the day, one of the biggest red pills that, you know, I want to give everyone today, I’m sure your listeners already know this is that the government is not out for your health, right? There’s no reason that cannabis is illegal. That relates back to them trying to keep you safe, right? The whole reason cannabis is illegal, at least here in America is because in the thirties, a couple of people got together that owned vested interests in big textile companies like nylon.

ryan sprague (58:08)

⁓ and also some other systems as well. And one of these individuals, Andrew Mellon owned the biggest journalism empire at the time, right? Think about the mainstream media today. So William Randolph Hearst, right? ⁓ Harry Anslinger, right? Who became the head of the DEA and this guy, Andrew Mellon got together and they were like, shit dude, you know, ⁓ we’re invested in oil and nylon and these industries and, ⁓ hemp is going to annihilate what we’re doing. Right. So they got together and they formed this whole.

ryan sprague (58:36)

Propaganda campaign, right? Smear campaign called reefer madness, where their whole story. And I recommend everyone go look this up and, and really dive into why your friends, your family, et cetera, think cannabis is bad. They think it’s bad because what happened in the thirties is they released reefer madness, which was a story about how Mexican men were coming over the border from Mexico and raping white women with this new plant called marijuana. That was a term that was going to be a racist term that really had nothing to do with cannabis.

ryan sprague (59:05)

And, ⁓ what happened was they went to the legislature overnight and they basically brought this case. They were like, Hey, these people are coming over, raping white women, all this kind of stuff, right? Super racist. And what happened was, you know, the powers that shouldn’t be at that time were like, should we have a vote on this? And they were like, did you just hear us? People are getting raped, right? So overnight they made this medicine called marijuana illegal. And funny thing about this time was that cannabis was in about 80 to 85 % of all medications on the market.

ryan sprague (59:33)

So every doctor woke up in the morning and was like, wait, they banned what? Why did they ban cannabis? Right. And so at the end of the day, when you start looking into all of this, you start realizing like, you know, my theory, I don’t have any research to back up what I’m about to say. But if you look into clinical endocannabinoid dysfunction or deficiency syndrome, and you look into certain, you know, ⁓ conditions like fibromyalgia or any of these kinds of things that are kind of really hard to figure out, right? Not a medical system can’t figure out what’s going on there. At least they say they can’t.

ryan sprague (60:01)

I really believe it has something to do with clinical endocannabinoid dysfunction or deficiency syndrome, because I’m not just talking about smoking weed, right? I’m talking about hemp, hemp protein, having this protein as part of our diet, having these seeds as part of our diet, because they nourish the endocannabinoid system that deals with all these autonomic functions, right? It deals with your nervous system regulation. Look at a lot of the problems going on right now. People are fat, they’re sick, they’re unhealthy. Right. And I’m not saying that the ECS is necessarily the only thing to look at with that.

ryan sprague (60:31)

But it is a essential part of it. And so when you look into these things, you start realizing that this plant has been a part of our life for thousands upon thousands of years, not just to get high, but to eat the leaves, to eat the hemp seeds, right? It was a part of us. You know, it was so important in the original Jamestown colony in Virginia, when the 13 colonies were around that it was mandated by law. You had to grow hemp because it was so valuable. They could make so many things with it.

ryan sprague (60:59)

That every citizen of that colony had to grow hemp and the declaration of independence here in America is written on hemp paper. So like the irony and the ridiculousness of this whole war on drugs completely is just silly, but especially when it comes to cannabis, because how many people think that this plan is something dangerous, right? Or any of these things when in reality, the plant is just a plant growing in the ground. There’s no danger to it. The danger happens when human beings, right? Running malware programs.

ryan sprague (61:27)

start to utilize the plant for disempowering endeavors, right. And disempowering scenarios. And so at the end of the day, that’s what I would say when it comes to ECS, you know, how cannabinoids work with the ECS intimately. ⁓ you know, one of the other things I’ll mention with regards to cannabinoid science is most people are obsessed with Delta nine THC, AKA THC that gets converted through decuboxylation into Delta nine THC. And in reality, I think this is one of the biggest thirst traps in the industry right now.

ryan sprague (61:54)

Because if you think back to even 15 years ago, right, there were no labs around, there was no test results. There was none of that. And some of the flower that people were growing back then that now they can test, right. Cause they’ve had clones and whatnot. It’s like 13 to 15 % THC stuff that we get laughed at today in the modern system, ⁓ but it had the effect that people want it. That’s why they loved it so much. But now what’s happened because we live in a very masculine dominated society.

ryan sprague (62:22)

Right. And that’s not necessarily a good or bad thing. I’m just saying like analytically wise and logically, that’s where most of us are at. We’re not connected to intuition. We’re not connected to these things. We’re more like show us the science, show us the research. And we’ll get into that in a second too. And why that’s silly. But basically one of the things that people don’t realize is that, you know, going to a dispensary and asking for the highest percent is like walking into a liquor store and saying, I want moonshine every time. When in reality, there may be like, say you.

ryan sprague (62:50)

God forbid have a limb that’s cut off, right? And you live in the 1800s. Yeah. You may need some moonshine, right? To like numb that pain then, and very similar to cannabis. Like, yeah, if you have chronic pain or cancer, there’s an argument for going high THC. But for most people like you and I, your listeners, et cetera, are looking to have a spiritual experience with cannabis, too much THC will actually dissociate you. And the goal we lock zone is you want to be in the experience and, and be able to actually remember what’s happening and be cognitively aware. If you go too far out.

ryan sprague (63:17)

Now you’ve just kind of overdosed, right? Now I’m not saying overdose in a dangerous way. You can’t die from cannabis, but overdosing in terms of like, it’s not going to be able to help you. And it’s not a fault of the plant. It’s a fault of you overdosing it, right. And not lowering your level of titration to get the desired result you’re looking for. Now, when it comes to the science, cause I definitely wanted to bring this up, you know, there was an episode that Andrew Huberman did last year that I got hit up probably a hundred times by people saying, what do you think about this? my God, he’s smearing cannabis. my God. Are all these things true?

ryan sprague (63:48)

So I listened to the episode and immediately I realized where he made a critical error. So he is part of the establishment. He works at Stanford, right? So in order for him to get outside of the establishment would be an entire identity change for him. So of course he’s going to look to these establishments as credible and he’s going to look at the science behind them and he’s going to speak as such, right? And teach as such. The problem is, and if you look at Peter Grinspoon’s new book, seeing through the smoke, he calls all of this out.

ryan sprague (64:15)

That do you know, Sam, that in America, and I’m not sure about other countries, but America specifically, you can only gain funding from the federal government to research cannabis. If you’re specifically looking for a danger or detriment to cannabis. Now, don’t you think that would skew the results a little bit if you can only even get funding for this plan, if you’re looking for something dangerous with it. Now, on top of that, let’s say you are looking for something dangerous and you get your funding. ⁓ Well, you can’t go to the dispensary and connect with cannabis or study cannabis that was grown.

ryan sprague (64:43)

in a high quality environment. No, you got to get your cannabis from Mississippi from the federal organization called NIDA ⁓ who Peter Grinspoon nicknamed this strain, the moldy mush strain. It’s usually five to six years old when you get it. It’s full of mold, full of seeds, full of stems. And that’s the example of cannabis you’re supposed to study. And the only way you can study is if you’re looking for it to find a detrimental effect. And now we look at why people think cannabis is bad for frontal lobe development and all these things.

ryan sprague (65:11)

It’s not because cannabis is bad at any of these things, right? I’m not saying there’s no things to be aware of harm reduction, et cetera. Of course, but this plant has been here for thousands upon thousands of years. We have a system that just so happens to perfectly match up with the phyto cannabinoids found on the plant. If it was that dangerous, it wouldn’t be that essential to our lives. And let’s also think about the fact that Rastafarians and people like that have been connecting with cannabis, even while pregnant and everything, all the things that people are terrified about, right?

ryan sprague (65:39)

But at the same time, they fail to realize that they’re telling you to take children’s Advil instead of cannabis. Right. What’s more dangerous, a natural plant growing on the ground or a synthetic compound, synthetic compound every single time. Why? Cause it’s not natural to planet earth. And a lot of things that people don’t realize too, is that every pharmaceutical, it’s just an isolate from a natural plant that they’ve been synthesized. Right. So, you know, if anyone’s a, I doubted on your show, but if anyone’s a pharmaceutical lover, it’s like, cool research, what plant that came from? Cause that’s always where it starts, you know? So at the end of the day,

ryan sprague (66:08)

This is what I want people to understand is you can form your own opinions, right? Everyone has their right to form their own opinion around cannabis, but make sure it’s your opinion. Make sure it’s not just something you’ve heard on the news and you’re parroting back because when you look into this stuff, you’ll start realizing, holy shit, every single study has been bought and paid for by vested interests in the pharmaceutical industries or things like that. They want to show that cannabis is nothing more than a useless plant so they can put you on Percocet or Ativan or get you in chemo or radiation or any of the things they make.

ryan sprague (66:36)

Billions and billions of dollars through that’s the only reason cannabis is illegal straight up.

Sam Believ (66:41)

Yeah, I ⁓ hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I do agree with some of those things. And when it comes to psychedelics and why are they illegal, there’s another story you can tell about methods of control. And I’m not completely judging those people that control the populations in a certain direction. I understand that they have vested interests and they want society to just keep working.

Sam Believ (67:04)

the way it works and they’re maybe afraid to change. Hopefully we will change and we’ll do it gradually in such a way that society will not collapse because ⁓ it’s another thing. I’m always asking myself, maybe when they’re doing it, maybe they were thinking they were doing a right thing as well because a lot of times we can create stories for ourselves that make us think we’re doing a right thing but we’re doing a wrong thing. But…

ryan sprague (67:21)

Mm -hmm.

Sam Believ (67:28)

the history and the time will put its own place. You mentioned, you know, plants growing in the ground. My approach to psychedelics and to what you can call drugs, quote unquote, is ⁓ I only take or consume or work with stuff that’s been around for at least a thousand years and that grows from the ground. So I never tried even stuff like MDMA or LSD.

Sam Believ (67:53)

I’m just like fully, it has to have a tradition. So this is why I tried ⁓ cannabis and I tried mushrooms and ayahuasca and stuff like that. So I think that’s my own philosophy, right? It doesn’t mean that it’s right or wrong. Some people have more flexibility. But once I was working with mushrooms and I, here in Columbia, you’re allowed to grow up to 20 cannabis plants at a property legally. Actually, ⁓

Sam Believ (68:21)

have some cannabis seeds here and the only stuff that I would personally ever smoke and I smoke really rarely like twice a year three times a year something that is the stuff that I like so growing but I don’t really like smoking a lot but I really love growing cannabis plants I think it’s a I have one growing right now it’s a beautiful plant that smells so nice ⁓

ryan sprague (68:23)

Nice dude. ⁓ Beautiful.

ryan sprague (68:31)

Mm.

ryan sprague (68:42)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (68:46)

⁓ as just a jet geometrically but i was i was i was working with mushrooms i was in the ceremony and i looked ⁓ at the cannabis plant and i was having those two big probably some kind of mix of cannabis and ham they’re like huge and they were there and i just looked at this plant and i couldn’t take my eyes off it from for like ⁓ half an hour is just it was so beautiful and it was like you felt like a this really

Sam Believ (69:11)

nice like spirit presence and stuff like that and I’m not the most hippie guy out there like I’m an engineer and I own this thing you know I work with Alaska but I’m still a skeptic but it was it was a beautiful thing and I just I love that planet it’s very beautiful so it’s beautiful to help people to work with it responsibly so I congratulate you on that I want to tell you a story ⁓ my first ever psychedelic experience was actually on cannabis

ryan sprague (69:33)

Please.

Sam Believ (69:40)

It involved, I first came to Cali, Columbia. It was my second month in Columbia and a friend ⁓ that I met, and I never smoked weed before that. I was like zero drugs. I think I was like 26 or 27. I’m a very late bloomer when it comes to all those things. And a friend of a friend came over to visit and he said, I have this cannabis cookie.

ryan sprague (69:56)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (70:03)

⁓ yes me like do you do smoke i said no i i never i i think that by then i tried cannabis few times but then didn’t really even feel much it was ⁓ it was weird so he said in that case eat half of it because it’s very strong so i was like i ate the half and then it was so tasty i was like can i eat the other half like how bad can it be he’s like well it’s really strong ⁓ and so i ate the other half and it was ⁓ terrible

Sam Believ (70:30)

Like I was vomiting, I was on the floor. And I think that there was a reason it postponed my work with ayahuasca ⁓ by a few years because I was afraid that it’s going to be something similar. So edibles are, I’ve never did it again, never will. It’s scary, but it was definitely my first ever psychedelic experience, but not a good one, but it was definitely psychedelic. So ⁓ I don’t know if you have any.

ryan sprague (70:30)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (70:59)

Last ⁓ recommendations ⁓ for people as if they do want to work with cannabis about dosages or the way to work with it. What’s the best, safest practice? And what are your recommendations on the intentional work when it comes to ceremony? Should they do a ceremony, maybe, you know, burn some Palo Santo or like what, what do you, what do you recommend?

ryan sprague (71:22)

Yeah. Great question, man. And what I want to bring attention to first is something you’d said right before this too, you know, about the powers that shouldn’t be type thing. Right. And, and I choose to believe that everyone is doing the best that they believe is, is right for the world, et cetera. Right. And at the same time, when you look at, you know, even star Wars, right. Could Luke Skywalker have become Luke Skywalker without Darth Vader? No, he wouldn’t have been able to, right. It would have just been like, Hey, I want to be a Jedi. Cool. Here’s a sword and a movie. Right. Like literally it wouldn’t have been any fun.

Sam Believ (71:50)

He wouldn’t be, he wouldn’t even be born without Darth Vader. Spoiler alert.

ryan sprague (71:54)

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, we require these individuals in the world that maybe to us are displaying something that we don’t agree with. We need that in order to rise into the hero of our own story. And I really feel like God, right. Maybe all knowing, but it is not all experienced. It’s an equally valid experience to be a Darth Vader as it is to be a Luke Skywalker, right? In the eyes of God, all of that is perfectly divine.

ryan sprague (72:23)

You know, and so I wanted to say that as well, because I never want anyone to be like, ⁓ I’m growing all this disdain against these powers of being. No, you don’t have to write, use them as motivation to live your own life, become sovereign, right? Get yourself out of the system. Can echo plant medicine, seal your trauma, you know, connect with your family, buy land, get out of the system, grow your own food, right? Like that’s the positive side of this, right? Is that we get to see and choose and be more discerning with who we spend time with, what we put in our bodies, how we choose to think, et cetera.

ryan sprague (72:52)

And that’s really the perfect day scenario I see out of all this. But when it comes to what you were talking about next, with regards to, you know, advice for dosing and things like that, I’ll kind of tackle this in a multiple segment thing. Right? So the first thing is you mentioned edibles, and this is something that a lot of people that are maybe new to cannabis may make the same mistake with. ⁓ and again, I don’t see it as a mistake, right? It was perfectly divine, but.

ryan sprague (73:17)

It could be a very challenging plant to work with. especially like, I mean, you connect with ayahuasca. Just like Aubrey Marcus and other people. And, you know, I know for Aubrey, he’s like, dude, I’ve almost had to have a field trachotomy from doing, from being overdosed with combo. ⁓ I’ve, you know, had a hellish experience with ayahuasca, but nothing has compared to a strong edible experience in terms of challenge. And the reason for that is that cannabis is a very feminine medicine like ayahuasca, but.

ryan sprague (73:45)

It kind of puts you directly into that, which is all potential, but no action. And so for a lot of us, especially us that are very structured, like masculine men, right? Like we get very uncomfortable in that because there’s no objective. There’s nothing. It’s just, it’s just all these feelings and there’s no structure to it. And it can be very challenging to work with versus like even mushrooms, right? Like, yeah, they’ll be challenging, but they’re kind of pulling you along on a journey with you. So you don’t have to worry about where you’re going. You’re kind of getting squeegeed by them as you go. ⁓ Whereas cannabis is just, you’re there and.

ryan sprague (74:15)

Keep yourself busy for the next six to eight hours. Right. So when it comes to inhaling verse, ⁓ ingesting cannabis, there’s some things to be aware of. So inhaling cannabis, right? Whether it’s your vaporization, that’s always what I recommend. Or if you want to smoke it, the strongest that effect is going to be is within about 15 minutes after onset, ⁓ and then it’s going to taper down, right? So it’s like strong and then it tapers down with edibles on the other hand, right? They’re the weakest they’re going to be when you take them.

ryan sprague (74:44)

And they slowly build up in strength. So I’m sure what happened to you is by the time you realized this is too much, you still had about 50 % more climbing to go, you know, and that’s going to last about six to eight hours. And the reason for that is because of how liver, ⁓ how your liver metabolizes Delta nine THC. So you seem like a slow metabolizer of Delta nine THC. I’m also a slow metabolizer. Another way to say that is we’re a very cheap date when it comes to cannabis, right? Which is a great thing to have in a certain, in a certain way.

ryan sprague (75:14)

And it doesn’t really relate to, ⁓ body composition. So someone that’s overweight could have a fast metabolism. ⁓ when it comes to THC, someone that’s very skinny like us could have a slow metabolizing rate. But basically what happens is when your liver metabolizes Delta nine THC versus your lungs, your liver actually converts Delta nine THC into a totally different cannabinoid called 11 hydroxy THC.

ryan sprague (75:38)

Which is between two to seven times more intoxicating to the CB one receptor, right? The receptor site that engages with the intoxicating aspects of cannabis, then Delta nine THC is. So the translation of that is of course, it’s going to be a much stronger experience. Now, the one thing that may create a difference in that is if someone is a fast metabolizer of Delta nine THC, they will then be a fast metabolizer of 11 hydroxy THC. So I used to have these like elderly ladies come into the dispensary.

ryan sprague (76:06)

And of course I would tell them to start with two and a half milligrams and they’d keep coming in and they’re like, I’m trying five and trying 10, I’m trying 20. Nothing’s happening. Right. And this is like literally an elderly lady in her seventies. That’s like a hundred pounds soaking wet. Whereas like if I eat 20 milligrams, I’d be having an experience for sure. So sometimes they were just interesting things that happen where your body composition. And just completely in the way you metabolize THC just makes you have a high tolerance, even if you’re brand new to cannabis. Right. So.

ryan sprague (76:32)

One of the best things I know for anyone out there that really wants to, maybe you’re new to cannabis and you’re like, Hey, you know what? This seems like a lot of moving parts. Like I’d like to have some more theory on, you know, I don’t want to just do trial and error. There’s a guy that I know named Len May who runs a company called endo health. And he has a great book called cannabis is personal and he does DNA sequence testing, ⁓ for cannabis. So you can send out, right? I think it’s like a hair sample or something.

ryan sprague (77:00)

And he’ll send you back. I think it’s like 200 bucks. He’ll send you a full report of what cannabinoids and terpenes work best for your system. What ratios like one to one, two to one, et cetera, CBD to THC. ⁓ what methods of ingestion, everything. He’ll also tell you if you have predispositions and certain genetic influences to schizophrenia, ⁓ you know, things like that. So that’s a great way to really get tactile with this. And I think that’s really what I see the future of cannabis getting into is less with the strain names. Not that I don’t think they’re hilarious sometimes like asking for Alaskan Thunderfuck.

ryan sprague (77:29)

having an elderly lady asked for that is pretty funny. But at the end of the day, we know through phenotypic variation that the blue dream that I get here in Boston is undoubtedly going to be different than the blue dream you have in Columbia, right? There’s same genotype blue dream, but I may have a phenotype that leans more to the hayside, more energy, more sativa. You may have the more blueberry phenome, more relaxing, more, more chill. And so if you’re just going to a dispensary and you’re like, I like that strain, right? I tried that in another state. I’m going to get that one.

ryan sprague (77:58)

It’s still a little bit of trial and error. So what I see the future of cannabis becoming is that you can get one of these tests done and you end up getting a number, let’s say like 31 is your number, right? From one to 99. Then you walk into a dispensary and instead of saying, we have Alaskan Thunderfuck or green crack or blue dream. They say, Hey, what number are you? And I say, I’m a 31 and they say, ⁓ we have a 32. ⁓ And, and, and these numbers are specifically correlated to make sure they work with your individual endocannabinoid system.

ryan sprague (78:26)

So that’s really where I feel like the industry is going or I hope it’s going anyway, because a lot of what phylos, ⁓ which they didn’t age well, ⁓ they sold all their data to the Monsanto, but what they did do is they started mapping the cannabis genome ⁓ and what they started finding was like, they were like 35 different strains that were all called the same thing. Right. And so like, you’re starting to realize that these names don’t mean anything, you know, someone just comes up with a new strain or take someone else’s strain, puts a new name on it, releases it. And now it’s the same strain, but with a different name, you know? And so.

ryan sprague (78:56)

You know, again, a lot of this is, you know, right now, a lot of it is trial and error trying to figure out what, you know, works for you. But what I would always say is start low and slow. You know, you can always take more, but it’s pretty hard to take less, you know, when you’ve already gone into the experience, it’s not impossible. You can take full spectrum CBD and or chew black pepper kernels. And both of those will start to mitigate the intoxicating effects of THC. So if you ever end up randomly accidentally eating an edible or something, Sam, use those to come back, you know, and you’ll.

ryan sprague (79:25)

Start cause CBD acts as a brake pedal to your endocannabinoid system. Whereas THC acts like a gas pedal, you know? So if you’re too far out, you’re too revved up, come back down with CBD, you know, and black pepper kernels work because they have beta -cariophylline and beta -cariophylline is a terpene that mitigates the effects of Delta -9 THC. There’s also ways to increase the psychedelic effects of cannabis with mango, dark chocolate, et cetera. ⁓ breath work can be a great thing to do. We host our monthly breathe with cannabis workshops that are amazing. And if anyone listening to this is like,

ryan sprague (79:56)

I enjoy cannabis, but I don’t believe it’s a psychedelic. Come on to one of those. We’ll show you, you will leave. We don’t have to tell you anything. Come experience it for yourself and you’ll see how cannabis can be a psychedelic. But that’s what I would say is make sure you’re going low and slow. Make sure that if you are going to inhale, do do vaporization, right? It’s more efficient, it’s more effective and it’s safer. Cause at the end of the day, you know, being a health nut, you know, smoke going into your lungs is not healthy. Right? So even though, yes, you won’t get cancer and these kinds of things for me.

ryan sprague (80:25)

Part of being highly optimized is making sure I’m doing the least harm with what I’m choosing to put in my body. And that would be vaporizing for me. I’m not a big edible guy either. I’ll do them every once in a while. If I’m going on a deep ceremony, but that’s what I would say with that with regards to ceremony and how to create a ceremony. Here’s some basics, right? You mentioned one of Palo Santo. ⁓ So for me, ceremony, how I would define ceremony is a intentional container from which your intention can play out within. So let me give you an example.

ryan sprague (80:52)

So let’s say that you’re exploring a creative block that you have or a trauma that you have. ⁓ Well, a correct setting for that would be a nice private room. Maybe your office, maybe your bedroom, right? It wouldn’t be going to a concert where that could be a good ceremony or container. If you’re looking to connect with some old friends and dance and have some fun. Right. And so at the end of the day, if you’re looking to create an intentional container, it’s got to be relevant to what your intention is. So if you’re looking to explore this, create a block and you really need some space.

ryan sprague (81:21)

Some great things to do would be a seven directional prayer, call in the seven directions to support you and being able to move through potentially challenging experiences, burning sage beforehand to kind of neutralize any negative energy that you may be coming into the experience with and also neutralize the energy of the space you’re in. And then from there reinvigorate that space with Palo Santo. And then from there, in terms of what to do for your ceremony, the most basic thing that I teach all my students is the classic body scan. It’s a meditation.

ryan sprague (81:49)

where all you’re doing is you’re becoming aware and you’re staying curious. You’re not judging anything. You’re not creating a story out of anything. You’re just lying down or sitting down and you’re just looking at what does my body feel like? What’s calling my attention here? And you’re just, let’s say that all of a sudden you feel a certain tension and your left rib, you just focus on that. Right. And you try not to make it mean anything. my God, am I going to have a tight muscle there? my God, is my back okay? Don’t try to get into that. Right. If those thoughts come, just watch them go by. Right.

ryan sprague (82:19)

And just focus on that and see what happens and spend about 30 minutes with that. Right. And when you come out, get into a journal and start to talk about your experience, right. Start to figure out what did you feel? What did you sense? What did you experience and start to really ask yourself, you know, what is coming forth in me? What, what is looking for more attention inside of myself? Some other things you can do already mentioned breath work is great. ⁓ you know, connection exercises is one of the best things to do in a romantic relationship. ⁓ eye gazing, ⁓ being able to, play what I call the curiosity game.

ryan sprague (82:48)

Which is, let’s say you and I were playing at Sam. What we could do is you and I could just sit, we could connect with cannabis and then we could take turns for five minutes being either the speaker or the listener. And this is fantastic in a romantic relationship because typically men, what is the challenge we have? We want to fix all of our women’s problems, right? All of our partners problems. And that’s a great intention, right? But women will always tell you they just want to be heard, right? They’ll ask you if they’re looking for advice. And so this is a great, great exercise to do because.

ryan sprague (83:17)

For five minutes, you’ll have your partner talk, right? And you’ll say, thank you. Or maybe ask a follow up question if the point is kind of completed. And then after five minutes, you’ll ask them, how did it feel to be fully listened to? You know, ⁓ how could you see me, ⁓ you know, integrating this into my life in a way that would support you. And then you take turns, right? And you ask them like, how did it feel to be the listener for five minutes? You know, how did it feel to be heard like that? And these are great things to do with it. It doesn’t have to be anything crazy. You know, and the best thing is you can do this in the comfort of your own home.

ryan sprague (83:43)

For anyone listening, you don’t necessarily need anything other than a couple of grams of cannabis, or maybe even a gram of cannabis to do this quite a few times, you know? So that’s what I would say to start with. ⁓ the other important thing is whenever you can, I know it’s kind of challenging in the world we live in, ⁓ where in the industry that we have with cannabis, but try to find organic medicine because one of the biggest, biggest things that is a thirst trap. And one of the things that people don’t get yet in the medicine space is that ⁓ the medicine.

ryan sprague (84:12)

that you grow has to be organic because if it’s not, then you’re in your pumping chemical salts and pesticides into there, it’s going to traumatize that plant. And so then you’re connecting with a plant that is also traumatized to try to help you heal your trauma. It’s going to be very, ⁓ kind of like muddy, if you will. And also try to know the grower who grew your medicine because the big reason we call our grow course grow with cannabis is because it’s very important that you are highly optimized when you grow your plant.

ryan sprague (84:38)

Otherwise the plant’s going to pick up on your negative energies and get imbued with those, you know? And so that’s why I teach growing your own because the best way, just like Don Juan talks about it, if you really want to connect with a plant teacher, learn how to grow it yourself, create a healthy relationship with it and really form a bond with this plant as a spiritual aid and ally in yourself. So again, I know that’s not always possible, so don’t stress about it, but like gold standard is growing your own, making sure it’s organic, growing in the sun.

ryan sprague (85:04)

grow with things like biogeometry to mitigate EMFs and radio waves and all these electrical currents that are around us. Use Korean natural farming ferments to really get the microbes going. Amazing. Get that soil food web really healthy, and you will have a beautiful, beautiful experience with that, even if it’s challenging, you know, because you’ll be able to come out of it, seeing it happening for you.

Sam Believ (85:24)

Thank you Ryan. This picking and listening game, you and me, we’re taking it to the next level today, even though we’re not in a romantic relationship, not planning, but ⁓ I’ve been listening to you for an hour and 20 minutes and now you’re next because we’re doing what Ryan told me is called swap casting, where I interview him and he interviews me. So there’s some next level stuff, you know, one hour.

ryan sprague (85:43)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (85:48)

20 minutes at a time. ⁓ Ryan, it was a lot of fun and very educational. I’m sure people here that ⁓ are struggling with healthy relationship with cannabis are now gonna be better. We will help them prepare for our retreats better, maybe because they’ll know how to ⁓ quit and then maybe they can ⁓ not feel guilty when they need to go back to this medicine if they have a specific intention. Ryan, where can people find more about you and learn about your work?

ryan sprague (86:17)

Same. I just want to say, this has been an amazing, amazing time, man. You’re such a good interviewer. I’m so grateful for being able to come on and share some magic with you. And I’m super excited. We got to do it all again later on today. Super pumped about that. But, ⁓ for anyone looking to connect, I love connecting with people. If you guys haven’t noticed yet, I’m quite the talker. So trust me, reach out with any questions. You can find me on Instagram at the real Ryan Sprague. My last name is S P R a G U E. ⁓ you can also go to highly optimized .me.

ryan sprague (86:44)

⁓ depending on when this podcast comes out, we have the wait list open right now for the CCC crazy new offer. We have two brand new courses. You get the grow course for free right now when you sign up. ⁓ there’s a lot, a lot of other bonuses we have too. And if this does come out after the wait list, anyone who is interested in the wait list, just let me know when it comes out and I will grant you what was on the wait list, even if the wait list is now closed. So reach out if you want more about that.

ryan sprague (87:10)

And then also, ⁓ check out our breathable cannabis workshops. They’re very low barrier for entry 55 bucks. We have a different theme every single month. It’s me, my buddy, Aaron Abke and my buddy, Christopher August leading you through a two and a half hour live ceremonial experience. And the best part is it’s virtual. You can tune in from the comfort of your own living room. We do them live from time to time. We’ll be in Austin June 1st doing a live one, but that’s where you can connect with me. Check out the, this one time on psychedelics podcast too. If you enjoy conversations like this, I’m going to have Sam on there later on today. And we’re going to have a blast.

ryan sprague (87:40)

So that’s where you can find me. And again, guys, thank you for tuning in and reach out if you got any questions. Happy to support.

Sam Believ (87:46)

Thank you Ryan, it was a pleasure. Guys, thank you for listening to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always with you the host, Sam Believ and I will see you in the next episode.

In this episode of AyahuascaPodcast.com host Sam Believ has a conversation with Eric Kaufmann

We touch upon subjects of psychedelics and spirituality in entrepreneurship, conscious leadership, ego myopia, how psychedelics can help you unlock your unrealized potential.

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to

http://www.lawayra.com

Find more about Eric at

http://www.sagatica.com

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:01)

to Iowaska podcast, as always with you, the host, Samba Leif. Our guest today is Eric Kaufman. Eric is executive coach. He’s a keynote speaker. He’s a facilitator. He’s the author of Four Virtues of Leader and Leadership Breakdown. Those are two separate books. He’s a CEO of Segetica. He coaches executives from Verizon, Facebook, Sony, and more. Eric, welcome to the show.

Eric Kaufmann (00:32)

Thank you Sam, delighted to be with you.

Sam Believ (00:35)

Eric, let’s start from ⁓ your life journey. I know it’s a pretty fascinating one, how you started your spiritual path, how you went corporate for a while and then went spiritual again and then came back with some gifts. Can you talk to us about that?

Eric Kaufmann (01:00)

My life journey, you know it’s interesting because the life journey is easier to look back on and say this has happened than to look forward on and this is what I want to happen. But I’m grateful for the way it’s turned out. I you know my interest in spirituality was on deck when I was a

Eric Kaufmann (01:21)

young person. When I was, I remember being a child ⁓ and being fascinated by these concepts that the adults were talking about. I didn’t know what the concepts were but I know how they felt. You know the concepts of transcendence, the concept of ⁓ dimension greater than our own, the concept of ⁓ human connection ⁓ that isn’t just transactional. And then

Eric Kaufmann (01:50)

I spent my ⁓ 20s, so from age 19 to some 32, I spent living in a spiritual community. And in that period of time, I went to college, graduated college, went to work, at 3M went to work at Corning, a big American companies. And ⁓ so, you know, I was toggling the spiritual and ⁓ corporate at the same time. ⁓

Eric Kaufmann (02:16)

and ⁓ finding the two worlds to be sometimes very incompatible certainly back in the 80s and 90s it seemed wildly incompatible ⁓ and ⁓ at some point I decided this is enough a man can no longer tolerate this kind of distinction and I’m going to go all in for the spiritual life.

Eric Kaufmann (02:36)

I gave up my whole sort of worldly ⁓ life, went into a very austere spiritual experience and ⁓ in the midst of that had this revelation that actually my spiritual life would be served. I would be served as a human being in this lifetime ⁓ with a wife and children and service and community ⁓ and that’s when the integration work really started happening. How do I bring these two worlds together? I’ve been doing that for ⁓ I guess 25 years now, stitching it all together.

Eric Kaufmann (03:06)

I ⁓ think I’m doing a better job now stitching it together than I did 10 years ago or 20 years ago but that’s sort of the nature of lung practice where you get ⁓ more integrated.

Sam Believ (03:17)

Well, that’s a very notable goal to do to help people stitch ⁓ those two incompatible things together. You know, as a founder of my own retreat, which is not just a business, but a very spiritual one, I find it difficult sometimes to navigate the spiritual side of things.

Sam Believ (03:41)

and the money side of things. Those seem to be two very different mindsets ⁓ and the reality of the society we live in now is that you have to combine both because if you don’t you lean heavily ⁓ to one side or to another. What have you discovered or I know you coach some very high level executives and not necessarily in spiritual businesses but how do you…

Sam Believ (04:10)

How do you help them ⁓ introduce spirituality into their business? And ⁓ how does it look like, you know, ⁓ from the outside?

Eric Kaufmann (04:22)

It’s an interesting ⁓ concept to reflect on sort of the assumption behind your question, right? Because I think you said ⁓ it’s difficult or you said it’s treated separately. no, no, you said in our society, right? That the money and the spirituality ⁓ are held separately. If you look back historically and culturally, it has been, you know, there’s been a distinction between these two pieces throughout history in all cultures.

Eric Kaufmann (04:51)

way the monks saw for it is that they basically would walk around with bowls and they would beg for their food so that they could practice their spiritual practices but being supported. We have to physically be supported. We have to eat, we have to wear clothes, we have to breathe clean air. So the distinction between spirituality and money ⁓ is a popular one but I don’t believe it’s as necessary.

Eric Kaufmann (05:21)

as we make it out to be. So I’m kind of curious about your reaction to that before I get into anything more sort of material. Can ⁓ you concede that the distinction you’re making is potentially a false dichotomy that’s perpetuated by cultural misunderstandings?

Eric Kaufmann (05:40)

You’re muted Sam.

Eric Kaufmann (05:43)

You’re muted.

Sam Believ (05:45)

Okay, I had to mute myself. My son was crying here nearby. So I personally understand that it’s not, you know, I’m very sorry about it. ⁓ My kids have arrived. Let me just figure that out real quick and I will, and we can continue. You can just see.

Eric Kaufmann (06:05)

Standing by.

Eric Kaufmann (06:08)

Hello beautiful child.

Sam Believ (06:15)

Juan, help me, I’m recording a podcast. I can’t have kids here. ⁓ Honey! Erica! Who’s here?

Sam Believ (06:27)

Kora, take the kid downstairs, I’m recording a podcast. ⁓ Kids can’t be here. And tell Estefania not to let them stay here.

Sam Believ (06:36)

Yes, the kid is here. Look, here are the apartment keys.

Sam Believ (06:49)

Okay, I’ll get my videographer to cut that part out, but ⁓ they just arrived from the city and they wanna see me, so they got upset. My older son is crying and the youngest one just found the window, so I guess that’s a good sign, means they love me. So ⁓ let me just go back to replying and then we cut this whole part with the muted mic as well. So I personally understand that in the spiritual work that we do, for example,

Eric Kaufmann (07:04)

That’s a beautiful sign.

Sam Believ (07:19)

The shaman has to have his hectares of ayahuasca where he has to pay workers to help maintain the medicine. Then he needs help to ⁓ cut the plant, prepare the medicine. It’s a very economic activity and it requires funding. So I also have to have ⁓ a property that has to be well attended. We have a team of 23 people that provide amazing service for.

Sam Believ (07:47)

or people that come to my retreats understand that money is absolutely necessary. But some people don’t understand it. So I get a lot of negativity thrown at me, ⁓ especially by local Colombians, because they kind of assume like, you know, why are you charging money for this? You know, they kind of assume that spiritual stuff has to be free, or at least people like to hide that, you know, it’s a business and you need to pay money and you need to pay taxes and they…

Sam Believ (08:15)

You know, they hide it by saying, you know, it’s not a price, it’s a donation. And I like to be open about it. And for that, I get some, you know, negative feedback. But what I, what I, what I tried to explain to you is that in business activities in, let’s say, finding people and promotion, some spiritual traditions don’t approve of that. For example, I know a lot of medicine facilitators that say, you should not promote, you should not.

Sam Believ (08:44)

you know, collect reviews ⁓ or ⁓ pay for ads and stuff like that. So there’s, it’s like, I personally think that I find the good balance, but there is definitely the stigma. And I also find that, ⁓ let’s say when I’m thinking about marketing or when I’m thinking about business side of things, I need to be very careful with money, not to spend too much. And it’s basically the opposite of the generosity. What…

Sam Believ (09:10)

The opposite of that feeling you feel when you drink ayahuasca, you know, that everyone’s connected. But in that case, you know, in perfect world, it would just work. But here you need, and if you don’t, then it just all falls apart. So that’s what I mean. There is some separation.

Eric Kaufmann (09:26)

So that’s a thank you for sharing that I would I would share two things in response one there’s a distinction between spiritual practice and spiritual life ⁓ and so I’ll come back to that right I want to make that distinction and then I’ll elaborate the other one has to do with you know philosophy or personal preference you know there are ⁓ so

Eric Kaufmann (09:49)

let me go to the first one. Spiritual practice versus spiritual life. Spiritual practice are the things you do, whether that’s ceremony, whether that’s meditation, prayer, giving on, you know, ⁓ praying at the altar, whatever your spiritual practices are. Those practices are intended, you know, to cultivate a certain way of being, which is then your spiritual life. Once your spiritual life ⁓ becomes ⁓

Eric Kaufmann (10:15)

embedded, maybe the word we use here is integrated, then your expression of that spiritual life is of infinite dimensions. So to say marketing, management, hiring, culture, team, how do you hold a meeting? Things that seem so pedantic, so mundane, so mechanically business -like, that’s just life. That’s life when you want to organize something.

Eric Kaufmann (10:43)

There’s different ways to organize it but life requires some form of organization. The fact that we have a body that is distinct has an organization. The ecosystem has organization. The universe, the stars move in orbits. There’s order and structure in things and that’s just life. That’s nothing to do with anything but plain reality. How you conduct yourself. That’s the spiritual life, not just a spiritual practice. So to me the question isn’t…

Eric Kaufmann (11:13)

How do you, you know, is there a distinction between money and spirit?

Eric Kaufmann (11:19)

No, it’s all energy. It’s all life. The degree to which we are living an integrated spiritual life that is bigger than just spiritual practices, that determines how I dispense the money, how I run the meeting, how I hire somebody, how I fire somebody. Right? ⁓ You’re running a business at some point somebody is not a good fit. Either they will exit or you will have to let them go. They’re just not a good fit. Does that mean you’re cruel and heartless and mean? No.

Eric Kaufmann (11:49)

Can you let somebody go as a spiritual practice? Yes, you’re still going to have to let them go. So I find the conversation about money versus spirit ⁓ to be a conversation ⁓ that’s fundamentally ⁓ engaged in a polarity that doesn’t have to be there. So ⁓ the spiritual life, what does it look like to be a conscious leader or a spiritual business person?

Eric Kaufmann (12:18)

It looks like you’re still going to run a business, ⁓ but how you treat your people, where you apply your money, how you do your marketing, the level of integrity, you know, can you demonstrate the things that you hold to be dear? And the answer is yes, you can. And it’s hard. Spiritual practice is hard. I’ve been meditating for 38 years. And for some reason, when I get up in the morning and I go to meditate, it’s not like automatic, like, yeah.

Eric Kaufmann (12:47)

get up, sit down, there’s still a choice I have to make because there’s a little part of me ⁓ that would rather do something else. And so ⁓ this is the spiritual life, right? Is the devotion to a set of ways of being, including how you run your business. So I’ll pause there. ⁓ But I guess before I pause, I want to emphasize ⁓ this question about money versus spirit is such a popular question. I just think it’s the wrong question.

Sam Believ (13:17)

Mm -hmm. Yeah, thank you.

Eric Kaufmann (13:17)

And the verses question is in and of itself ⁓ sort of a Christian biased ⁓ false dichotomy of heaven and earth. And if we look at it from more from a plant medicine perspective where it’s all interconnected, it’s not heaven and earth. It’s just the infinite interconnected web of existence that has infinite ways of manifesting itself with a filament and a line of consciousness running through to make choices.

Sam Believ (13:47)

Thank you. For me personally it was helpful and I can feel the coach in you and I can feel you coaching me which is great. I think I would not be able to afford your coaching otherwise. ⁓ You mentioned meditating for 38 years. That’s a long time. I’m 36. I just turned 36 last week so that’s a long time meditating. So talk to us and talk to our listeners about your meditative practice. Why do you do it? How it helped you?

Eric Kaufmann (13:57)

You

Sam Believ (14:17)

become who you are now and how have psychedelics if they have played the role in your meditative practice.

Eric Kaufmann (14:32)

You know why I meditate has changed over the last almost four decades. I started meditating because I was a total mess. I was a 19 year old pretty messed up. I just got kicked out of college. I was doing very poorly. I was not focused. I was not directed. I was not in any demonstrable way making choices that were aligned with my highest good. Nor did I know what my highest good was. So meditation…

Eric Kaufmann (15:01)

at the outset for me ⁓ was a bit of a life raft. I needed to grab onto something ⁓ that would help me stay afloat in the choppy sea of my life. Once I was able to get on top of the meditation raft and stay afloat, the motivations changed. Now it became more about the ability to be more focused, more present, more intentional. As my meditation practices continue, it really deepened into more of a

Eric Kaufmann (15:30)

lack of a better word, kind of spiritual dimension, which means ⁓ I’ve meditated for a long time with this very strong focus on listening. Not just listening to the sounds around the room or the sounds outside the structure, but can I attune myself to the signal that is more subtle than the noise? And that means what’s the direction of my life? What is the right action to take in this moment?

Eric Kaufmann (15:54)

How should I behave with this person? What should I dedicate myself to? Meditation became this brilliant sort of way to raise my antenna of consciousness and be able to detect the signal of what’s true and right for me amidst the noise of not just the world outside but the world inside. And then as I progressed further…

Eric Kaufmann (16:16)

I realized that meditation was actually this remarkable gym where one of the greatest muscles that was being cultivated ⁓ is the muscle of agency. Agency. The ability to make choices in my own life and my description of what I think enlightenment is at a very achievable level is to be a conscious being at choice.

Eric Kaufmann (16:41)

conscious being that choice and if you meditate in any tradition that you meditate you’re sitting there making this choice to continue to hold your attention in a particular way so you’re cultivating the agency muscle ⁓ and I find that in particular with medicine ⁓

Eric Kaufmann (16:56)

We’re going to do a ceremony. Classically what we do, perhaps you do this at your retreat as well, is there’s some intention setting. What is ⁓ the direction that you’re asking to be moved in by this additional field of possibility when it opens up? Otherwise you walk into that field of possibility. Anything and everything is online. So how will you have some kind of a sense -making device?

Eric Kaufmann (17:21)

And that’s what intention does so well, right? And this ⁓ meditation. ⁓

Eric Kaufmann (17:28)

to me and I think to many people has proven to be this wonderful way to cultivate that muscle of agency and intention. So then what we go into ceremony, you set the intention and then with the intention has to come some willingness to surrender. Because if it’s only about what I want, why the hell did I show up to this place? Right. And if I don’t want anything, well, then everything can come at me and that might be overwhelming. So that balance between being intentional ⁓ and then being open, pliable and available to what’s coming online, that to me is where the meditation

Eric Kaufmann (17:58)

become so…

Eric Kaufmann (18:02)

functionally helpful and when it comes to medicine, right, learning to have that sense of agency and intentionality and then entering into the medicine journey with the capacity to return if I’m overwhelmed or if I’m feeling lost ⁓ and still attend to where the medicine is taking me, that combination to me is golden. I wish everybody who does ceremony would be required by whatever laws that don’t exist, you know.

Eric Kaufmann (18:30)

to cultivate their meditative capacity ⁓ before they go into ceremony. To me, that comes first, not second. So it’s less about how did the medicine help my meditation. It’s more how did my meditation make medicine ⁓ more impactful and richer experience for me.

Sam Believ (18:50)

I think what you’re describing is what we like to explain as, ⁓ you know, there’s set and setting, but there is a third S, which is a skill. And I think it’s partially it’s a meditative skill ⁓ or the skill of agency to control your experience while you’re on PsychoDuck. So it is a meditative practice to guide yourself, which is not easy to guide yourself in that space.

Sam Believ (19:19)

Can you tell us about…

Eric Kaufmann (19:20)

Well, I’ll give you, let me give you a quick example to make this practical, right? I have sat lots of ceremonies ⁓ and it’s not unusual in the ceremony to have this like upwelling in the gut, right? This energy rising up, which often expresses itself as, as retching. So, and you might know this and there are other people who know this, but in my experience, I can sit with that, ⁓ you know, upwelling in the gut, which is almost inevitable.

Eric Kaufmann (19:49)

But the meditation experience has me understand the movement of energy through the body. I’ve been doing this long enough to be able to be with whatever happens and not reject it. And what I’ve found for the past 20 -some odd years is when that experience happens and I can just settle into it, not reject it, not resist it, ⁓ but…

Eric Kaufmann (20:12)

It’s not even embrace it just be one with the sensation that energy can move up and out without retching It just is energy that moves up and out. It has other ways to off gas ⁓ without having to physically retch and That’s not better or worse

Eric Kaufmann (20:28)

But it is working with energy in a very direct way, right? Because when we’re sitting in ceremony, energy is the name of the game in some ways, right? And so ⁓ the meditative capacity to have the wherewithal to not only be sensitive to the energy, but to flow with it as it moves ⁓ means that we are then brought online with the medicine to places that are quite subtle.

Sam Believ (20:55)

So in your journey with medicines and meditation, can you tell our listeners the story about you locking yourself in a wooden box?

Eric Kaufmann (21:07)

I’m amused that you’re pulling it out. That was a secret for like 30 some years and I shared it in one podcast now. I’m happy to share it. But ⁓ yeah, ⁓ I ⁓ spent many years meditating and I spent many years with medicine work. Now, to be fair, my teachers did not condone medicine work because in sort of the traditional, you know, spiritual…

Eric Kaufmann (21:31)

practices and orders in particular in the Zen tradition, that’s not encouraged. It’s not actually, ⁓ they don’t look favorably upon it, but I was who I was and I am who I am. And so ⁓ I ⁓ got to a point where I really wanted to test, this was in my sort of late 20s.

Eric Kaufmann (21:54)

And I wanted to see if I could in fact get to the point where the ego structure, my sense of identity would dissolve to the point that it wouldn’t reconstruct. It’s a dicey experiment to pull off, but I felt like I could do it. So I actually built to your point this wooden box, you know, maybe slightly larger than the coffin because I could actually sit in it. I couldn’t lie in it. So I’m six foot five. I’m a long guy. I built this box too short to lie in.

Eric Kaufmann (22:24)

Just just enough to sit in ⁓ as a you know plywood a heavy box and then I fasted for 24 hours so i’d be cleaned out ⁓ I stripped naked I stepped into this box and had a lid latches and locks on it And I had two of my colleagues michael and rob You know who were volunteering to take shifts and stay with me there for the 12 hours that I was going to remain in there and ⁓ Then I took a couple hits of acid

Eric Kaufmann (22:54)

and stepped into this box with ⁓ a towel on the wood so I wouldn’t get splinters in my butt, but, and a bowl for urinating and proceeded to stay in there for that day, going through an entire journey, sitting up locked in a black box with no light. ⁓ So that was the experience.

Eric Kaufmann (23:20)

I don’t know that I don’t recommend it to anyone who wants to try it, but there’s a certain level of, ⁓ there’s a certain level of terror. ⁓ If you can imagine sort of going through that hole, just being locked in a box period ⁓ is not really something that most of us go towards. Not that I’m crazy about it. Being locked in a box while on a real strong, you know, LSD trip ⁓ is, ⁓ illuminating.

Sam Believ (23:51)

Were you able to dissolve your ego completely and what did you learn from that experience? It’s fascinating how hard one can push yourself and what pushed you to do that? Something in you or?

Eric Kaufmann (23:51)

terrifying.

Eric Kaufmann (24:08)

What pushed me to do that was I was a, for lack of a better word, or to use my wife’s words, my wife is a psychologist, she says I was a spiritual zealot. I wanted to transcend, I wanted to ⁓ swim in the oceanic lap of the divine beings, I wanted to be free of the constraints of my own sense of smallness and

Eric Kaufmann (24:34)

limitation and a lot of that meant I wanted to kill the ego or dissolve the ego. So it’s your question what did I what came of it? No, the ego did not dissolve or die. It’s it’s well online and intact. For a brief period there I was in fact you know beyond that in the transcendent state and and I think many of us who take these kinds of journeys will find ourselves transcendent right beyond the ordinary.

Eric Kaufmann (25:04)

But what came out of it in many ways was this tremendous sense of confidence, right? Because if you can imagine, I don’t know how many people can sort of play with this imagery, ⁓ but it’s fairly terrifying. The terror is not conceptual. The terror is an animal body level terror, right? I’m locked in a black box. I’m naked. I’m hungry. And all my senses are tripped out by these chemicals running through my system. It’s terrifying, right?

Eric Kaufmann (25:34)

And to sit there and breathe through the terror was profoundly liberating on the back end of it. Because what it put me in touch with is some new level of ability ⁓ that at that point I didn’t know I had. I suspected I did, which is why I set this up, but I didn’t know. And the ability to sit with that kind of terror served me better when I then went off and did some of the more radical things than that. But it has served me as a human being.

Eric Kaufmann (26:03)

in my relationship with my wife as a father to my children, as a coach to my clients, as a member of the community. I was just a man walking in the woods. So that was one. One was sort of and I’ve come to say that you know fear is the gatekeeper to power. And the power that we feel you know when we when we do a ceremony and we feel that power coming online and it is the power that is not just my physical biological power.

Eric Kaufmann (26:31)

but it’s a sense of suddenly being lit up and connected with the universal life force. And that power is actually life itself coming online.

Eric Kaufmann (26:42)

to have ⁓ the opportunity to navigate through the terror and feel that power ⁓ and know that I’m okay, that I can make it, is incredibly liberating. So that was one. The other was this remarkable learning that no, killing the ego is off the table, not an option. So what is the option? The option is some level of maturity that I’ve spent the next 30 years going after.

Eric Kaufmann (27:10)

Yeah.

Sam Believ (27:11)

making peace with the ego instead and managing it and ⁓ instead of destroying it completely making it a little prettier. I like what you say about fear every time before going into ayahuasca ceremony I still ⁓ feel some level of fear and I think it’s just natural ⁓ because you never know what’s gonna come up. ⁓ But all this experience and we talk about ego you have this phrase that I ⁓ really like.

Sam Believ (27:41)

and you talk about egomyopia. Can you talk to us about that?

Eric Kaufmann (27:48)

Sure, yeah. I came up with that ⁓ term a few years ago as I was trying to understand what is the barrier here, right? So when I realized I’m not gonna kill the ego, I’m gonna mature the ego. So what is the issue? So ⁓ I came to this term, egomyopia, not being able to see and manage the ego. And ⁓ at this point,

Eric Kaufmann (28:12)

And to your point, my day -to -day work with executives and executive teams, I’d say the number one barrier to executive effectiveness is egomyopia. So we have to correct that egomyopia. I’m not going to kill it, I’m not going to destroy it, not for lack of trying, right? I have made the effort. Nor is it about just making it nicer, prettier. It’s about really cultivating and expanding our sense of consciousness, our state of consciousness. And that egomyopia ⁓ can be softened.

Eric Kaufmann (28:42)

We can be, you know, not being able to see, not being able to manage means we have to cultivate at least two things. To see it, we have to be more self -aware. And to manage it, we have to be more self -disciplined. And self -awareness and self -discipline ⁓ are the first two stages, as it were, in that corrective action towards egomyopia. Which turns out to be quite difficult to do solo. I learned that as well, as much as…

Eric Kaufmann (29:07)

⁓ Even ⁓ self -awareness requires outside input. It’s a little misleading, right? Because it’s self -awareness as though I’m just aware within the self, but it’s dynamic. Myself, my ego is a dynamic construct that came from family, and the way it keeps refining is with other people as well as our own personal work. But ⁓ the…

Eric Kaufmann (29:28)

the symptoms as it were or the signs of the egomyopoeia being corrected, there are two things that start to happen to this ego construct. It doesn’t break, it doesn’t go away, it doesn’t disappear, but there are two features ⁓ that would demonstrate this egomyopoeia softening or that this could be corrected. I refer to that as the ego becoming more porous and more spacious. More spacious meaning that it can hold more contradictions. It can hold more

Eric Kaufmann (29:57)

what would appear to be incongruent elements, they’re not incongruent, they’re only incongruent from a social construct. I can be both angry and happy. I can be motivated and doubtful.

Eric Kaufmann (30:10)

The more spacious the ego is, the more constructs can be in that space and we’re not so crammed and forced to just be one kind of person. When the ego is porous, it means thoughts, ideas, and especially identities can move in and out. I am not bound by who I was 10 years ago, 5 years ago. There’s porosity. There’s movement through the boundaries of identity. That to me is the maturation of our ego state. That we become more spacious and more porous. Then our ideals

Eric Kaufmann (30:40)

our concept of self ⁓ can hold more and can adopt and lose things more ⁓ dynamically.

Sam Believ (30:51)

I like to explain to people and that’s how it feels from my point of view that when you work with strong doses of ⁓ psychedelics, your ego does go away and does get dissolved ⁓ for a period of time and then it gets reconstructed again so it comes back to normal but however in this process of reconstruction you’re built it slightly nicer every time and what you’re explaining is maybe slightly bigger and slightly

Sam Believ (31:21)

more open. Because you work with executives and high level people, there must be extra large amounts of ego that’s just natural because that’s ego that ⁓ brings them to those results. Do you often find that there is resistance to your advice or to your training or do they always ⁓ listen?

Eric Kaufmann (31:50)

⁓

Eric Kaufmann (31:54)

I was invited to give a keynote to a private gathering, which was 120 CEOs of mid -size market companies. And the title of my keynote, this is just about three weeks ago, the title of the keynote was Ego Check, How to Unleash the Next Level of Executive Effectiveness. So 120 CEOs that are running businesses, you know, ⁓ north of $20 million. I’ll sit in there to your point, right?

Eric Kaufmann (32:24)

That’s a dicey conversation to get right into. And they really got the message, and they got it. So partly it’s how I deliver it. Right?

Eric Kaufmann (32:37)

As far as having big egos, there’s a lot of confidence. There’s a lot and there has to be confidence to pull it off. You’re an entrepreneur, right? And as an entrepreneur, as a man who’s sort of running an organization, you are pitting yourself against the odds because the likelihood of success is pretty slim. So there has to be a certain level of confidence, right? Drive, belief in self.

Eric Kaufmann (33:05)

That would have you say yeah, let’s do this. and and I I don’t this is not a Comment about the retreat industry or about the medicine. It’s just a comment about life 90 some percent of businesses simply disappear So the odds of success are stacked against us. So to pull off and sustain a business requires a certain level of confidence, ⁓ What I think you’re calling big ego, right? But the other thing that comes with that ⁓

Eric Kaufmann (33:34)

is some level of if you’re going to if you’re an entrepreneur if you’re a business you know running a business you have a certain level of deferred gratification you have had to learn to plan for the long term to set things aside to do things in order to treat people in a certain way. ⁓

Eric Kaufmann (33:48)

So those are all elements of discipline. When I talk about self -awareness and self -discipline, to get to the point where you’re actually running, there is a certain level of self -discipline. And without self -awareness and self -discipline, the first two steps of our spiritual evolution, it’s difficult to get to the next steps like self -acceptance and self -love. And so there is something in the community of folks who have spent years cultivating this that’s available to be transferred into another domain.

Eric Kaufmann (34:16)

If you think about the people who are starting the spiritual path, a lot of the initial efforts are, can I even control myself at some level? Can I make some choices that look like intentional choices? I’m not going to any executive and sort of attacking them about having an ego. I’m having a conversation about what’s the next level of effectiveness. And I’m not saying you have to get rid of the ego. I’m saying how do you cultivate more consciousness? And so…

Eric Kaufmann (34:44)

And the people who engage with me are selecting, they’re self -selecting. The people who don’t want to hear about this, they’re not going to engage. The people who do, we’re going to engage. But is there resistance? Resistance is a really interesting question. I don’t actually get resistance. And you might say, how the hell are you not getting resistance? Because for me to judge something as resistance assumes that I have a position contrary to theirs and I’m pushing or pulling and they’re trying to push or pull against me.

Eric Kaufmann (35:12)

What I have is signals. If somebody is what’s called resistance, there’s either readiness or understanding. And if I can help with the understanding, great. And the readiness might not be up to me, but I don’t see resistance in people. I see ⁓ readiness or understanding ⁓ and I can work with that.

Sam Believ (35:34)

So you talk about conscious leadership, right? And you’re there in the room of 120 ⁓ leaders. Some of them might be conscious, some not. First of all, explain to our listeners, what is conscious leadership? And then ⁓ how do you train them? How do you help them become conscious? And why would a leader want to become a conscious leader?

Eric Kaufmann (36:05)

Why would a leader want to become a conscious leader is a fabulous question. I ask myself that same question a lot.

Eric Kaufmann (36:16)

There has to be some personal motivation. There has to be something that is switched on. And oftentimes, what switches on is a sense of desperation or frustration. What we’re doing isn’t working. The way we’ve been playing the game isn’t sufficient. Our tools are not getting us to a place. Sufficient for what? Usually, there’s a search for some kind of contentment or some sense of personal freedom. It’s not why so many people show up to your space.

Eric Kaufmann (36:44)

And so the why people want to be conscious leaders is sort of on us, it’s on them, right? I don’t know that I can ⁓ force somebody to want to be a conscious leader.

Eric Kaufmann (36:59)

The how and the what is a conscious leader by at least the way I construct it and the way I’ve learned and the way I pass it on ⁓ is a conscious leader is somebody who is correcting their egomyopia ⁓ and to correct the egomyopia there’s a sort of a triple, a triad of features that we go to work on and I refer to them as wisdom, love and power.

Eric Kaufmann (37:24)

And to me that’s the work of cultivating conscious leadership. It’s the work of cultivating our consciousness, right? Turning on our wisdom, turning on our love, and turning on our power. You could say they’re always turned on, yes, but are they clear, are they aligned, are they integrated? Wisdom is our capacity to see below the surface and beyond the obvious, right? Wisdom is this understanding of the interconnectedness of all of life.

Eric Kaufmann (37:50)

Love is giving without expectation. It’s all the features that have to do with the nurturing heart and with the kindness and compassion to others and to self. Power is our ability to live with purpose and relaxed presence. The ability to show up not with power to over people but this connection to the life force and then the expression of that life force in our unique way. When wisdom, love and power

Eric Kaufmann (38:19)

are activated, the egomyopia is diminished and so consciousness rises. And as consciousness rises, the executives and folks that make decisions from that place, it looks ⁓ increasingly different than just the egomyopic self -serving need to be right, they need to be liked, they need to have might. Turns into wisdom, love and power.

Sam Believ (38:44)

Beautiful. And ⁓ how can psychedelics help leaders to maybe discover that their ego is bigger than it should be and maybe find that desire to be more conscious and to also, you know, unlock their unrealized potential?

Eric Kaufmann (39:15)

So it’s the end of the ceremony. Everyone’s ⁓ done in the North. You’re gonna go to sleep, you’re gonna do whatever, you’re gonna wake up the next morning and you’re gonna do an integration sort of wrap up circle, some kind or another, right? I think these are fairly standard ⁓ features ⁓ of a ceremony. Regardless of the individual experience that people have, some people had a really tough time, it was hard, they had to go through it. Some people had a wonderful, loving time.

Eric Kaufmann (39:44)

You do this now on an ongoing basis. People sit around the circle and there’s two things, three things that come up regularly, right? ⁓ One thing that comes up is to a person, gratitude. Right? To a person. ⁓ Have you had a person come to a ceremony that doesn’t feel a sense of gratitude after? It’s almost impossible. I don’t know. Maybe you have.

Sam Believ (40:07)

Not every ceremony, but in the retreat that will come up at least once.

Eric Kaufmann (40:11)

Right, there’s a sense of gratitude. And so ⁓ What are people grateful for? They’re grateful for the opportunity to have tapped into a larger version of reality Than our mundane day -to -day sense of anxiously driven goal -directed ⁓ You know games that we play So gratitude is one the other thing that often comes up is a sense of love ⁓ You know ⁓

Eric Kaufmann (40:37)

love for life, love for our family, love for our loved ones, whoever they are, that’s almost always accentuated when we go around and ⁓ talk to people after ceremony. And the third that comes online is the sense of ⁓ our own inner boundaries and how we have now a felt sense of being able to transcend them, ⁓ right? And so… ⁓

Eric Kaufmann (41:04)

You can see right how does that help when somebody who’s myopathy focused on the pnl driving the team driving for results and is caught up in this anxiousness on the day -to -day effort to make the impossible possible ⁓ And then they drop into this field of possibility They come out of the skin of their limited boundary and they touch upon and this to me is what the medicine ⁓ does so dramatically, right? You physically emotionally mentally ⁓ embodied ⁓ contact

Eric Kaufmann (41:33)

with a vast field of possibility, with the interconnectedness of life, you come back from that ⁓ and it affects the way you are thinking and feeling and reacting to people around you. ⁓ And I think from that perspective, what the medicine does is it gives us a glimpse into what’s possible ⁓ in a way that’s very difficult to glimpse under normal circumstances.

Eric Kaufmann (41:58)

And when somebody has, we did a, ⁓ I did a workshop a few years ago, there was no medicine involved. It was called the Alchemical Executive. There were 12 executives for three days and we went deep on this sort of personal exploration, no medicine. But similar, you know, with the right coherence and the right set of processes and the right environment, there’s a transcendent experience that happens. About a week later, I got a call from one of the participants and she said, what the hell did you do to me?

Eric Kaufmann (42:27)

I said, what do you mean? She said, one, we got rid of all the plastic in the house. Two, I went out and bought an electric car. I said, for the record, we never talked about the environment. We never talked about plastic. We never talked about EVs. We were doing deep personal work. What happened to this amazing woman, ⁓ a C -suite leader in a Fortune 100 company?

Eric Kaufmann (42:49)

What happened to her? She came online. This personal work actually helped her dissolve the sense of separation as she had a felt sense experience ⁓ of the life force and the inevitable interconnectedness among everyone. And then when she went back home, she wanted to start doing the obvious things that would express the sense of stewardship and responsibility and kinship with life. So she got rid of plastic and brought an electric vehicle as step one and two, right?

Eric Kaufmann (43:14)

That to me is what the beautiful thing is. Once we get in touch with that, and this is so different than the preacher from the pulpit telling you that God is telling you to be nice, to be kind. Well, hallelujah to all that, but that’s intellectual. When you have a felt sense experience of the connection, that changes your perception and your consequent behavior. And that to me is the exciting part about this work.

Sam Believ (43:38)

Yeah, I can imagine, you know, it’s hard for anyone to integrate their psychedelic experience or transcendent experience of any form. But if somebody ⁓ is an executive and they have to not only change their own life, but then, you ⁓ know, a life of this ⁓ group of people and this big organization and they that’s that sounds very, very complicated to do.

Sam Believ (44:05)

in in your own journey ⁓ i i watch some of the testimonials from the ⁓ the executives you work with and one of them called you an enlightened coach ⁓ because i think that the angle you take is very different from normal coaching it’s it’s more about that that spiritual side so ⁓ can you talk to us about first of all you know enlightenment have

Sam Believ (44:31)

Have you felt that you ever achieved it or is it a goal? And then, ⁓ you know, what do you think about people calling you that?

Eric Kaufmann (44:42)

I think she’s overselling it, but I appreciate that you put it on the deck. I can call myself whatever the hell I want, but I have a wife and two daughters, right? So there’s a bullshit detective that I live with. And when I was in my 20s, I was hell bent. That was my spiritual zealot, right? I was going to be enlightened. I remember two years into being in my teacher’s community and it was one of the…

Eric Kaufmann (45:10)

Dharma talks on a Wednesday night and I actually at one point raised my hand and said, you know, I am going to be enlightened within five years and sort of drew a wave of laughter from all the students who’ve been there longer. And I thought, wow, you guys are just losers. So now close on 40 years later, I understand why they laughed.

Eric Kaufmann (45:32)

My notion of enlightenment when I was a younger person is different than it is now. My notion of enlightenment was essentially a desire to be free of the pain and suffering that I was experiencing, emotional pain, sense of alienation, not really fitting in, feeling insecure, all those things I thought enlightenment would just be the opposite of that. So there’s two things I have to say about that. One, I’m certainly more enlightened than I was, but I’m not, you know, whatever.

Eric Kaufmann (46:00)

Even in Buddhism there are four different types of enlightenment. I might be in level two if I’m lucky. I’ve also changed my perception of it. One, I’ve mentioned to you my goal is to be a conscious being at choice, which to me is more of a functional definition of enlightenment. And two,

Eric Kaufmann (46:22)

The high bar that I invite people to and that I have striven towards, striven, that I’ve worked towards over the last few years is ⁓ really the level of self -acceptance. Because I think so much of what I wanted from enlightenment ⁓ was a psychological relief. And ⁓ to me, much of that has to do with our ability to arrive at a deep, loving, embodied experience of self -acceptance.

Eric Kaufmann (46:51)

and we are from birth trained to be in self -rejection, self -criticism, insufficiency, awkwardness, insecurity ⁓ and to arrive at a place where we can be in self -acceptance is going to feel a lot like enlightenment because one of the features of self -acceptance and I’ll speak from my own experience not from you know ⁓ academic perspective ⁓ is this remarkable sense of contentment.

Eric Kaufmann (47:19)

That’s what I was looking for as a young person when I was looking for enlightenment. I wanted to be content. I didn’t know that language at that time. But self -acceptance has yielded a level of contentment. My inner critic is done. There’s no inner critic in me. The anxiety is ⁓ gone. I don’t stress. There are things that are difficult and challenging. There are moments when I’m doubting myself. But self -acceptance and contentment.

Eric Kaufmann (47:47)

If I never reach anything higher than that in this lifetime, this is more than I would have expected in my youth.

Sam Believ (47:56)

You were aiming to kill the ego and you missed it but you killed the inner critic.

Eric Kaufmann (48:02)

I didn’t kill the inner critic. We danced to the point of blending. We integrated. I didn’t kill it. I haven’t killed anything. My pursuit of killing turned out to be a lethal boomerang because ⁓ at the end of the day, Sandra, there is no ego. There is no inner critic. It’s just me. We use all these terms to…

Sam Believ (48:07)

Mm -hmm.

Eric Kaufmann (48:25)

externalize it and deal with it with some cognitive fashion but there is no ego there is no self -critic there’s none of that it’s just me ⁓ and the work isn’t to kill anything because that kind of lethal intention is a boomerang who am i killing ⁓ me ⁓ and so the action is an action of love ⁓

Eric Kaufmann (48:44)

and love looks like blending and blending looks like integration. My inner critic got reintegrated into the general gestalt of my ecosystem of being and resolved, dissolved that energy, but didn’t kill it.

Sam Believ (49:00)

beautiful that’s a great way to understand it ⁓ and in your spiritual journey you mentioned that eventually you had through a year of meditation in a cabin you come to realization that the true spirituality is having a family and living in community can you talk to us about that and ⁓ how did it go for you you know years later

Eric Kaufmann (49:26)

I ⁓ didn’t realize a true spirituality was any of that. I realized that for this man, Eric, me, in this lifetime,

Eric Kaufmann (49:39)

the next spiritual adventure, the growth, would come with wife and children, with service and community. It wasn’t that ⁓ the monastic life is not true. It just wasn’t right for me. And I didn’t conclude this sort of rationally because I sat down with a journal and came up with this idea. This was a profound revelation. And I should add, deeply undesirable. When I got that message that I should leave my spiritual sort of cloister,

Eric Kaufmann (50:07)

and have a wife and children and live in community, it was very aversive to me. I didn’t want to do that. I was convinced at the time that ⁓ children would steal my spiritual energy and that the wife would be a distraction and that life in business would just be crass and mundane and I wouldn’t be able to be enlightened. So it wasn’t a welcome message. But.

Eric Kaufmann (50:34)

years of meditation and spiritual practice ⁓ have ⁓ impressed upon me that when I get that kind of download ⁓ I will pay attention and I will follow. And so yeah my wife and I are married for 25 years. I have a 23 and 21 year old daughters who are these gorgeous creatures navigating the matrix with great skill. And ⁓

Eric Kaufmann (51:01)

What I didn’t know that I can say now is when I left my spiritual order and as you mentioned at the time I was living, it was a year in silence. So I was in a cabin I built in the mountains, a slightly bigger version of that box, but still very isolated and very ⁓ eventful for the year of meditating up there. When I left, I realized that I had…

Eric Kaufmann (51:27)

learned how to touch upon ⁓ the fringes of God and experience direct access to spiritual dimensions, ⁓ but emotionally I was a bit of a moron and relationally I didn’t know how to ground that spiritual energy into the day -to -day mundane experience of chop wood carry water. And so I didn’t know at the time, it took me years to figure this out, but this this

Eric Kaufmann (51:54)

This message is compulsion to stop sitting cross -legged and sort of attuned to the transcendent and begin to apply that into the really intense and maddening experience of being married and having children ⁓ has been a profound lesson for me of love and patience ⁓ and compassion ⁓ and ⁓ nurturing.

Eric Kaufmann (52:17)

in a way that being a monastic wouldn’t have taught me. I don’t think. Me. This is not a universal statement. This is about Eric. I think it’s true for many people. But ⁓ I didn’t marry a woman who would just ⁓ be a servant. I married a partner. ⁓ That’s hard. ⁓ That’s hard because it’s going to require, you know, all this discussion about ego is not theoretical ⁓ when you…

Eric Kaufmann (52:44)

live together, love together, raise a family together for a quarter century. And it hasn’t been easy necessarily or smooth, but my wife’s amazing, my kids are, they have their own challenges and spiritual path, but they’re beautiful, amazing young women. And I’m profoundly grateful for the download and grateful to myself for listening.

Sam Believ (53:07)

You know what they say if you feel like you’re rich to enlightenment, go visit your family for a week. It’s kind of similar to that, but in your case it was ⁓ actually ⁓ starting a family. You talk talking about family and the community. You talk about meaningful communities. What is a meaningful community? And,

Eric Kaufmann (53:14)

That’s right. That’s right.

Sam Believ (53:37)

you know how how should we why should we have more of them

Eric Kaufmann (53:42)

⁓ Feels like a…

Eric Kaufmann (53:47)

kind of a critical question, I think, at this time. It’s always been important, but, you know, we live life. I forget the ⁓ name of the Surgeon General of the United States a couple of years ago, more than a couple of years ago, maybe four or five years ago, he made his declaration that there’s a pandemic of loneliness ⁓ in the United States. And it may not just be the United States, but that’s what he was referring to.

Eric Kaufmann (54:12)

I, you know, in my experience of community, there is a, you know, there’s a lot of references to community where groups of people gather together. When you said the word meaningful, the way I distinguish ⁓ that in my own experiences, a group of people has a shared interest.

Eric Kaufmann (54:32)

A community has a shared fate.

Eric Kaufmann (54:37)

And the distinction is material, right? The shared interest means that we can dive in and out at will and we can participate and we can learn and grow and exchange ideas and information. A shared fate means that when you’re happy, I feel the happiness. When you’re sad, I’m hurting. When you need something, I provide it to you. When I need something, you provide it to me. I think that’s a level of community ⁓ that is ⁓ more traditional as in the older versions of our own societies, right? And…

Eric Kaufmann (55:06)

Why is it so critical these days? ⁓

Eric Kaufmann (55:12)

We exist in relationship ⁓ and when those relationships are solid and shared fate, when I feel that I’m actually being held, supported, cared for, known, observed, attended to, ⁓ there’s more life force in me. I feel more ready to face the world ⁓ and together we can face the world more meaningfully, ⁓ more lovingly, more powerfully. ⁓

Eric Kaufmann (55:38)

And the general construct of our modern society is disempowering. You know, from the time we’re born through school, ⁓ higher education, work, we’re meticulously and consistently being chipped away at our sense of greatness and our sense of power. And a community can help us regain that sense of meaning and power ⁓ and live a life that’s not any bigger or louder, just authentic.

Eric Kaufmann (56:03)

And when people go to their grave, many of them wished ⁓ that they lived an unconstrained life, i .e. an authentic life. And sometimes it’s difficult to do that alone. Community can be a great… Look, it’s communities that keep us from being authentic. It’s communities that can encourage us to be authentic. And when you asked about spirituality and enlightenment, self -acceptance is one measure ⁓ of a sort of enlightened journey and authenticity, the ability to really flow through the life force, the divine power that pours through us so we can

Eric Kaufmann (56:33)

touch upon in ceremony, but bring in day in and day out. It’s not just ceremony that it’s done in, it’s done in our day -to -day activity and the community helps us hold that line, hold that energy and live that life of expression, of devotion and honoring to the divine that can come through us.

Sam Believ (56:56)

Yeah, I agree with you completely about the importance of the community. People come here to Lawara to ⁓ drink ayahuasca to get healed. But what we notice is at least half of the healing, if not more, comes from the community. Just ⁓ when you create that culture of mutual support, people start ⁓ reflecting in each other and they start supporting each other. And this is tremendously healing.

Sam Believ (57:24)

So I’m also excited myself to build the community as well. I kind of see that I’m working on this now as the motto is come for Ayahuasca, stay for the community, have a place for people to come and live and work, be happy, be supportive, be loving. And yeah, we need it. We’re very lonely as a society and sometimes all you need is 15 more people and a bonfire and a good conversation and the healing will come.

Eric Kaufmann (57:55)

⁓

Sam Believ (57:57)

Eric, thank you so much for this conversation. I think a lot of people find it very entertaining and very informative, especially people who are ⁓ in business and want to be more conscious as leaders. Where can people find more about you ⁓ and maybe any last message you would want to share?

Eric Kaufmann (58:24)

My website is sagatica .com. S -A -G -A -T -I -C -A. Sagatica from a Latin word sagasitas, which means wisdom or the sage, sagacious. So sagatica is a play on that word, sage or wisdom. sagatica .com. Obviously I’m on LinkedIn, Eric Kaufman on LinkedIn. Check out my books, To Your Point, The Four Virtues of a Leader and Leadership Breakdown.

Eric Kaufmann (58:51)

sort of practical applications of this conversation. And, ⁓ you know, my any parting words, I would ⁓ encourage folks to give up ⁓ the effort to kill the ego ⁓ and to do ⁓ everything in their power as a spiritual practice, as a living practice.

Eric Kaufmann (59:14)

to leverage whatever practices and whatever medicine work ⁓ to come closer and closer towards that place of self -acceptance ⁓ because that is a path to peace.

Sam Believ (59:27)

Thank you Eric, beautiful words, thank you for sharing and yeah guys, stop trying to kill your ego, Eric try it, it doesn’t work. Just love yourself.

Eric Kaufmann (59:38)

Thank you, Sam.

Sam Believ (59:40)

Thank you for listening to ayahuascapodcast .com. I hope you enjoyed this episode and I will see you in the next one.

In this episode of AyahuascaPodcast.com host Sam Believ has a conversation with Vanessa Crites

We talk about Vanessa’s journey of overcoming alcohol addiction and psychedelics role in it, history of alcoholics anonymous how it also was inspired by psychedelics we discuss if you can still consider yourself sober if you work with Ayahuasca.

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to

http://www.lawayra.com

Find out more about Vanessa at

http://www.vanessacrites.com

Transcript

Sam Believ (00:00)

Hi guys and welcome to Ayahuasca podcast. As always with you, the whole assembly of ⁓ today I’m interviewing Vanessa Christ. Vanessa ⁓ has been as 19 years of experience and 19 years of sobriety in 12 step recovery programs. She has eight years of experience as a plant in plant medicine work. She’s a psycho spiritual integration specialist, facilitator, mother.

Sam Believ (00:26)

artist and psychedelics and recovery educator. Vanessa, welcome to the show.

Vanessa Crites (00:32)

Thank you so much for having me, Sam. It’s an honor to be here with you.

Sam Believ (00:37)

Vanessa, tell us a little bit about your story. First of all, it’s obvious that we’re going to be talking about sobriety, addiction, recovery. So tell us about, you know, maybe your story of addiction and how you all became addiction. And ⁓ yeah, tell us your story.

Vanessa Crites (00:56)

Yeah, thank you. Happy to do that. So as you mentioned, I’ve been in recovery from chronic alcoholism for almost 19 years. My sobriety date is July 25th of ⁓ 2005. And I got sober in the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous. ⁓ And before I crawled into the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous, ⁓

Vanessa Crites (01:23)

I believe that I needed a drink way before I took my first one and alcohol was not my problem. It was my answer. It was my medicine. It eased the discomfort and pain and, you know, just the terror of being a human being on this planet.

Vanessa Crites (01:47)

And so I’m actually very grateful for my years of alcoholism because I believe that it kept me alive long enough to have me here sitting with you today. And I ⁓ first started drinking when I was probably about 12 or 13 years old. And I remember the very first time I drank and I remember every detail of that time a friend spent the night.

Vanessa Crites (02:17)

We ⁓ snuck into my parents’ liquor cabinet and we took everything that was in there and poured a little bit in the cup. And I remember ⁓ taking it, drinking about half of it, handing the cup to my friend. And I can promise you that what happened to me in that moment did not happen to my friend. What happened to me in that moment, the moment that piss fire hit my belly.

Vanessa Crites (02:49)

It was like the very first breath I had ever taken my entire life. And I ⁓ felt normal in my skin. My human experience without alcohol was like I had been skinned alive and lit on fire ⁓ walking around in my life. I come from a history of pretty severe trauma and…

Vanessa Crites (03:19)

and it just made everything better. I first started drinking because I loved the way it made me feel. And then I crossed a line where I started to drink to change how I felt. And then I crossed another line where I was drinking not to feel anything and drinking for oblivion. And it got to the point in my drinking where I needed it to breathe. I needed it to…

Vanessa Crites (03:48)

feel normal and ⁓ what was ⁓ after I crossed that last line, it was like I needed it. I needed it to breathe and ⁓ despite unbelievable consequences.

Vanessa Crites (04:09)

and a real deep desire in me to not drink the way I was drinking, to stop drinking. I quit drinking every single day. I’m not gonna drink today. I’m not gonna drink today. ⁓ And inevitably, I was there in my little minivan pulling up to the drive -through liquor store and reaching through the window and just to have the cold bottles in my hand, I could breathe. And it was torture.

Vanessa Crites (04:38)

they call it alcoholic torture. And that’s really what it was like for me. I could, ⁓ anytime I drank, I had almost, not almost, ⁓ every time I drank, I had little or no control over how much I would take. And when I drank, I couldn’t stop drinking. And when I honestly wanted to not drink, I couldn’t not drink.

Vanessa Crites (05:08)

And so that’s the story of what ⁓ alcoholism looked like for me. And in the process of this, I’m building a career and I’m having a family and by all appearances, my life looked pretty great and normal, but I was dying inside. So that’s the story of ⁓ what it was like for me.

Sam Believ (05:32)

So ⁓ I believe that first of all, thank you for sharing the story. It’s very poetic. I could kind of relive it through you. My father is an alcoholic.

Sam Believ (05:46)

my grandfather, I believe, was alcoholic. I think I would probably also be an alcoholic if I didn’t find ayahuasca on time because this existential crisis, you know, depression, whatever you call it, that you were feeling, I also started feeling it in my 30s and luckily so, found ayahuasca and found another path. So I can’t really judge my ancestors. They didn’t, maybe didn’t really have the best tools, but ⁓ obviously you overcame that addiction. And I know that,

Vanessa Crites (05:53)

Mm.

Sam Believ (06:16)

You didn’t do it with the help of psychedelics because you found them later. So could you please talk to us about how you overcame that addiction? And how ⁓ would you do it now, or maybe have people you helped, like how could you do it better with plant medicines?

Vanessa Crites (06:39)

Yeah, great questions. So ⁓ I ⁓ actually had a period of sobriety in my teens from about five years, ⁓ or about five and a half years of sobriety from the time I was 15 until I was about 21 or so. And so I knew about AA and I had ⁓ a community at that time and didn’t, after about five and a half years didn’t really resonate with

Vanessa Crites (07:09)

with what the book was saying, the book meaning the basic text of Alcoholics Anonymous where the program of recovery is outlined in the first 164 pages. ⁓ And, but I knew about AA and when I left AA after my teen years, it took me 13 years to get back. ⁓ And so I knew that there was a place for me to go. And ⁓ when I finally had,

Vanessa Crites (07:38)

what I believe ⁓ was an incredible spiritual experience. Like the first spiritual experience I ever had was the moment I drank alcohol. And then there was this moment of profound spiritual ⁓ connection where I just absolutely surrendered. And I said a prayer that I remember to this day and I said, God, and I didn’t even know about God. Like I wasn’t raised in the church. There was no talk of faith.

Vanessa Crites (08:07)

But I made a prayer of petition and I said, God, please put your hands on me and keep me from harm. Please show me your plan and purpose for my life. I’m ready right now. I don’t know about this God thing, but give it your best shot. And that night was my last drunk and I walked into the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous the next day. Early bird, 7 .30 meeting and that meeting was my home group for the first five years.

Vanessa Crites (08:37)

And how I recovered was applying the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous. ⁓ I ⁓ got a sponsor, I went through the steps as they were outlined in the book. I started being in service ⁓ and ⁓ building self -esteem by doing esteemable things and helping out where I could and…

Vanessa Crites (09:05)

⁓ really built a incredible community there. I think there’s so much medicine in community and fellowship and that that is such a critical piece to recovery. ⁓ And, and so that’s, that’s how I got sober. I did the things they told me to do. I trusted that it would work even though I didn’t necessarily believe that it would. ⁓ And, and, and it did, and it stuck and the.

Vanessa Crites (09:34)

the compulsion to drink left me. I found a connection with the steps are designed to bring about a spiritual experience so significant that it brings about permanent recovery. That’s what they’re designed to do. I recognize that does not happen for everybody, but it happened for me. And I recovered from alcoholism, from that seemingly hopeless state of mind and body.

Vanessa Crites (10:01)

And it was around the 12 year mark that I ⁓ started ⁓ exploring ⁓ psychedelic medicines. Two things were happening simultaneously. I was in a place in my life where…

Vanessa Crites (10:19)

Everything was fine. It was fine. And I was doing all the things. I was a co -chair for a national women’s conference. I was leading two big book studies a week. I was sponsoring a bunch of women. I had a service position. I was doing prayer and meditation, but there was the stagnancy in my spiritual growth. I just wasn’t growing anymore. And what I know, what I am taught ⁓ in ⁓ that fellowship is that my…

Vanessa Crites (10:48)

Next function is to perfect and enlarge my spiritual life, to grow in effectiveness and understanding. I was trying to do that and it wasn’t working for me. At the same time, I had a partner with treatment resistant depression who we were just trying to keep alive, a rotating door of psychiatric facilities and treatment centers for him. And I admitted him to a psychiatric facility and I got home that day and I sat down at my computer and

Vanessa Crites (11:18)

and I did ⁓ a search for alternative treatments for treatment resistant depression. And the great work that Johns Hopkins is doing on psilocybin ⁓ came up and that opened Pandora’s box for me. And I went down the rabbit hole and learned as much as I could and bought all ⁓ so many books and listened to podcasts and…

Vanessa Crites (11:45)

watched documentaries and really the initial interest was to help my partner at the time. And then I started to ⁓ hear the call ⁓ to the medicine. ⁓ And ⁓ I started with a microdose protocol. It was very structured and I wanted to get it right.

Vanessa Crites (12:10)

not just because I wanted to get it right, but also because I wanted to protect my sobriety in the process. How do I approach these tools, these medicines, the spirits of these plants with integrity and reverence and in a good way, right? And in right relationship. And I was very fortunate that I had people in my life who were like, okay, this is…

Vanessa Crites (12:36)

this is what you’re getting ready to enter into. I was not alone. I had guidance around blessing the medicine and creating a sacred space and setting intentions and what integration looked like. And so I was armored and armed coming into that experience. ⁓ And that was the beginning of my entry and it completely, completely changed my life. ⁓ It was very subtle.

Vanessa Crites (13:04)

and gentle, like a whisper. But what I experienced was a deeper connection to myself. You know, they say that medicines make the unconscious conscious, that they really just open a door. And I started to feel more connection to spirit and greater appreciation for Mother Earth and ⁓ on my path. And I had…

Vanessa Crites (13:32)

these moments of awareness and perspective and a general sense of well -being. And I’m like, I think I’m onto something here. And my path progressed and fast forward now to where we are. I started sitting with Ayahuasca over five years ago now. She’s one of my primary teachers ⁓ and I love her so much. And I feel so deeply loved.

Vanessa Crites (14:02)

by her ⁓ and I work with psilocybin and a variety of other medicines depending on what I’m coming to the medicines with and…

Vanessa Crites (14:19)

Yeah, so that’s that and you asked another question and the question was would I do it differently? I don’t know that I would ⁓ And here’s why ⁓ I needed to be stabilized ⁓ I needed to have a foundation and a footing in my recovery coming from this path where I numbed escaped and avoided every single experience and feeling that I had

Vanessa Crites (14:48)

right? And I had an opportunity to ⁓ become a woman of my word, to be in service in my community, to get far enough away from the substance ⁓ that I was using and be ⁓ stabilized ⁓ so that I could approach medicine.

Vanessa Crites (15:14)

in a good way. And that’s really my recommendation for anybody. It doesn’t have to be AA, but to find, establish recovery ⁓ in a community and have a path of action, get yourself grounded. And then once that is addressed and you have the group, your community around you, ⁓ then medicine work is a wonderful…

Vanessa Crites (15:42)

sort of 2 .0 or 100 .0, you know, PhD level exploration into addressing those things that are beyond the scope of the steps or beyond the scope of therapies we have tried or beyond the scope of medications we have tried ⁓ to do the deeper work to heal those things within us that caused our drinking or using or compulsive behavior to begin with.

Vanessa Crites (16:12)

Right? And then you’re coming with the right mind. Now I know there are a lot of people out there who are working with psychedelics to treat addiction recovery. And I honor that work and it’s just not my personal path.

Sam Believ (16:27)

You mentioned ⁓ responsible use of psychedelics, right? Because for some people…

Vanessa Crites (16:34)

I’m sorry, you’re far away from, I can’t hear your mic.

Vanessa Crites (16:44)

Yeah, it sounds really far away.

Sam Believ (16:58)

What about now? ⁓ Hello, hello. It’s strange that for some reason it lowered the volume. But you can hear me now well, right? Yeah, we’ll cut that piece out. So I’ll just start with my question again. ⁓ You mentioned the responsible use of psychedelics in overcoming the addiction, right? Because some people could.

Vanessa Crites (17:01)

Yeah, it’s, I don’t know, it’s strange. My volume is fine. Blow again? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s good.

Vanessa Crites (17:13)

Yeah, you’re good.

Sam Believ (17:27)

try and use it as an escape or another, I mean it’s kind of hard to get addicted to psychedelics but use it as, you know, abuse it and use it ⁓ irresponsibly. So ⁓ what would you say or what would your words of advice be to somebody who specifically is looking to work with psychedelics ⁓ but they ⁓ know how to do it responsibly?

Vanessa Crites (17:56)

What I would say is that there has to be a litmus test.

Vanessa Crites (18:04)

And in our intention, when we are considering…

Vanessa Crites (18:11)

When we are, ⁓ sorry, there’s scratchiness.

Vanessa Crites (18:17)

Are you there? Okay. It’s lowered again.

Sam Believ (18:50)

Okay, how about now?

Vanessa Crites (18:52)

Yeah, that’s better.

Sam Believ (18:54)

I just reset my microphone. I don’t know what’s why is it going crazy? Okay.

Vanessa Crites (18:58)

Okay. All right, so ask the question again.

Sam Believ (19:03)

You mentioned responsible use of psychedelics. I can imagine somebody who is ⁓ used to rely on substances or alcohol, they might see psychedelics as another high. So how ⁓ would you recommend somebody who is trying to overcome the addiction and they want to work with plant medicines? What would you tell them? What would your words of advice be?

Vanessa Crites (19:26)

Yeah, so psychedelics are inherently non addictive, but as people who are predisposed for compulsive behavior or addiction or alcoholism, we have an affinity for altered states of consciousness. And what I would say is that there has to be a litmus test. Like the intention has to be clear about why and what you are doing and for

Vanessa Crites (19:55)

And the why is so important, right? This is where the intention setting comes in. And the litmus test for me is, ⁓ am I seeking to numb, escape or avoid? That’s the first question. Am I, do I just wanna not feel the way that I am feeling? Because here’s the thing about psychedelic work is it is not a joy ride. If you are working with medicines,

Vanessa Crites (20:24)

You’re not necessarily having some some big, you know ⁓ ecstatic trip the entire time there may be a lot of pain or struggle or Conflict or you’re confronted with things that are coming up, right? Like we’re going in to do heroes work. We are going in to face our darkness ⁓ and And unless you’re ready to do that and do the consequent

Vanessa Crites (20:54)

⁓ integration on the back side of it, which is where the medicine actually lives, then it’s not time. It’s not time to do the work and to be really patient and wait for the sacred call. This is not a matter of curiosity. This is a leveling up and wanting to do the deeper work on ourselves, the sole excavation work on ourselves.

Sam Believ (21:24)

Yeah, that’s those are good words of advice. It’s interesting that we’re having that conversation now specifically about alcohol because last month we had a patient we like to call our visitors patients at the wire at the retreat I founded with my wife and he came over.

Sam Believ (21:45)

to quit drinking basically he was desperate nothing was working for him ⁓ and ⁓ he actually drank like a day before coming to the retreat which normally we don’t allow but in this case he was really desperate so we started working with very small doses of medicine and he ended up staying with us for a total of 14 ceremonies he stayed with us for a month and a half and I have posted photos on Instagram recently he took a photo of himself before and then after obviously he

Sam Believ (22:15)

lost a lot of weight, you got healthy looking, you completely quit drinking. Obviously that’s a really hard way to do it, just like coming into it.

Sam Believ (22:24)

⁓ and just ⁓ full stop and just diving into deep end, but I will tell him to listen to this episode. And, this question is to you from me for him. So what would you tell him now? He’s going back to his, he just left a few days ago. He’s in, he and his travel, he and his family are traveling around Columbia now. What should he do when he comes back to his real life? And then there’s maybe pain or something he might want to escape from.

Sam Believ (22:54)

Yeah, any guidance for Mike, his name is Mike.

Vanessa Crites (22:57)

Yeah, Mike. ⁓ So there will be certain trials and low spots ahead guaranteed. It’s just part of the human experience. And the greatest thing I can say is build community around you of like -minded people, people who understand the path that you are on, ⁓ find others in recovery who are also on a medicine path that you can speak openly with ⁓ and integrate.

Vanessa Crites (23:25)

integrate, integrate, do everything you possibly can do to imprint these new patterns of behavior and new thought processes so that they become an intuitive part of who you are. The thing is, is we can have these huge mystical experiences, transformative experiences that completely change our lives. And if we do nothing ⁓ with what…

Vanessa Crites (23:54)

we learned what we saw, what we were shown, what happened, it disappears like a vapor. And the experiences become something we did one weekend or that one month in Columbia, and it becomes nothing. And we waste the opportunity to really transform our lives. And so, like I said before, where the medicine actually lives,

Vanessa Crites (24:23)

is in what we do when we go home. How am I going to live my life? How am I going to take advantage of tools and skills and new behaviors and new processes to have them become an intuitive part of who I am?

Sam Believ (24:43)

Yeah, it’s all about remembering. At LeBaro, we give people integration journals that guide them in trying to save as much of their experience as they can. So yeah, Mike, pick up your journal whenever you’re feeling sad, listen to some medicine music, and if need be, call me. ⁓ I also noticed…

Vanessa Crites (25:02)

Yeah, and then I want to also say, Sam, I’m sorry, I want to also mention as far as finding community goes, ⁓ psychedelics in recovery is a 12 step fellowship that ⁓ is for people who are curious or actively ⁓ integrating psychedelic medicines into their program of recovery. And that’s an incredible, incredible place to build community of like -minded people.

Vanessa Crites (25:30)

And then I have a community as well called Sobriety of the Soul where people can come and learn how to integrate psychedelic medicines into sober living ⁓ for long -term sustainable benefit.

Sam Believ (25:44)

Thank you for sharing this. So we have people that come to our retreat to specifically heal ⁓ addiction to alcohol, but there’s also people that come ⁓ to fix something else. And I keep hearing it over and over again, maybe one person every month goes back to me a few months later and says, you know what, I just realized I stopped drinking as a side effect. Like they were not even planning to, and I have my own theory about,

Sam Believ (26:14)

what happens there. Have you ever seen that happen or met somebody with that? Like what do you think is going on in that case?

Vanessa Crites (26:23)

Yeah, well, speaking about ayahuasca in particular, I think I have seen that in my community for sure. And not just quitting drinking, but a lot of behaviors that are no longer aligned with who they are truly, who they are truly, right? ⁓ And those behaviors just start to fall away. ⁓ I think…

Vanessa Crites (26:49)

there’s a difference between somebody who’s a chronic alcoholic and somebody who is ⁓ just drinking a lot for coping, right? ⁓ And I can’t say what happens for people, but what I have seen, and it’s also been my experience with some of my own behaviors that, especially with Ayahuasca, when we come out of those experiences, she has just cleaned us.

Vanessa Crites (27:18)

cleaned our bodies and our spirits and our souls and our minds. And I feel a sense of duty ⁓ and responsibility ⁓ to maintain that ⁓ out in my life. ⁓ And so maybe that’s part of it. That it’s a way actually that we are in right relationship with the medicine.

Vanessa Crites (27:43)

rather than just coming to have an experience or to have something healed, the way we show our reciprocity to the medicine is by maintaining ⁓ and continuing to evolve and change and put down those things that no longer serve us. And I think that she has this really wonderful way of…

Vanessa Crites (28:08)

you know, opening us to other possibilities so that we’re not reaching for the thing to try to ease ourselves.

Sam Believ (28:18)

⁓ I had this thought once when I was talking to somebody on the topic of AA and it’s, it has all to do about ⁓ AA and psychedelics. And I remember this joke came to me, which is AA needs another A, which is ayahuasca as in, ⁓ you know, a third A. ⁓ what, what do you, what do you know or what do you think about AA? It’s history that has to do with.

Sam Believ (28:46)

psychedelics and do you agree or disagree that maybe a little bit of another A wouldn’t hurt?

Vanessa Crites (28:56)

So AA in particular is a Singleness of Purpose Fellowship that deals exclusively with alcoholism and ⁓ that singleness of purpose is rightful. And so I’m actually not a proponent of adding anything, you know, it doesn’t need to, yes, AA needs to change. Let me just say that because it really does, it has to evolve.

Vanessa Crites (29:26)

Bill Wilson even said, we must evolve or we are going to fall away. However, I consider medicine work an outside issue, that it’s something that I do for my spiritual growth and that I don’t necessarily ⁓ have to have AA ⁓ affirm ⁓ that in order for it to be legitimate, right? As far as the history goes,

Vanessa Crites (29:56)

Bill Wilson was a patient at the Towns Hospital, Charles Towns Hospital in New York City. He was under the care of Dr. William D. Silkworth. And one of the treatments that they did in that hospital was called the Belladonna treatment. And it was Belladonna, Helbane, a couple of other plant medicines, and it would induce hallucinations and delirium.

Vanessa Crites (30:27)

In Bill Wilson’s third and final stay, and he writes about this in the big book of Alcoholics Synonymous, he has this profound white light experience where he is standing on the mountaintop and the sunlight of the Spirit is just pouring through him, and he had an experience of God. He had a white light experience of God and he fell to his knees. And it was in that experience that he had the vision.

Vanessa Crites (30:53)

of one alcoholic helping another alcoholic to bring about permanent recovery. And so literally AA was born ⁓ out of a trip, out of a psychedelic trip. Although, Helbane and Belladonna are not technically psychedelics, he was experiencing hallucinations. ⁓ So let’s just say that literally AA was born out of a plant medicine experience, yeah?

Vanessa Crites (31:21)

And fast forward to 1956, ⁓ Bill Wilson was friends with Gerald Hurd and Aldous Huxley, who wrote The Doors of Perception about his experience with mescaline. And they were telling him about the work that two Canadian doctors were doing ⁓ on LSD and alcoholism. And at first, Bill was

Vanessa Crites (31:47)

pretty skeptical and was not particularly interested, but they continued to share the results and his interest got, his interest was peaked. And in 1956, August of 1956, Bill Wilson went to California ⁓ and sat with LSD for the first time in the clinical research trials ⁓ to treat his clinical depression. Bill Wilson,

Vanessa Crites (32:15)

had debilitating depressive disorder. He was sober 20 years already, and he had not been able to address the depression. So he worked in LSD research studies to try to treat his clinical depression. But Bill also had another motive. What he saw in his 20 years of people coming into the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous,

Vanessa Crites (32:41)

is that there was a large portion of people who were not having a spiritual experience, ⁓ that ⁓ they were not, not for any fault of their own, ⁓ not because they didn’t try hard enough. Even in all of their earnestness, some people did not respond to the process of the 12 steps by having a spiritual experience. And so Bill Wilson was exploring LSD as a possible

Vanessa Crites (33:11)

⁓ to help bring about the vital spiritual experience that…

Vanessa Crites (33:19)

Carl Jung ⁓ suggested ⁓ was the reason this spiritual malady, this disconnection from ourselves and this disconnection from spirit was actually at a fundamental core of alcoholism and addiction and that LSD could help bring about the spiritual experience. Bill worked with LSD for about six to eight years. He got a lot of flacks.

Vanessa Crites (33:49)

from the trusted servants at the top of the AA, but also ⁓ Richard Nixon and the war on drugs happened. And so all the research studies got shut down, but he was working with LSD for six to eight years. We don’t know exactly when it stopped, but Bill is noted for saying in some of his letters that the LSD experiment helped him very much.

Sam Believ (34:17)

So, yeah, if the history went a little different, maybe AA would be working with psychedelics long before and who knows what the world would look like now if ⁓ the original psychedelic renaissance would ⁓ be, I mean, not even, we’re in psychedelic renaissance now, but whatever, the original thing would have been managed a little better.

Sam Believ (34:42)

Yeah, I’ve read a few books about this whole story and one of them mentioned this story about Bill Wilson. I like the phrase that you used in preparation for this podcast. I looked into your other appearances and you said ⁓ something about abstinence sobriety, as in sobriety where you kind of stop consuming a substance forcefully.

Sam Believ (35:11)

What is your opinion on ⁓ abstinence sobriety and what do you think about ⁓ for people to maybe look for the reason why they’re addicted and try to get rid of it versus just kind of white -knuckling it?

Vanessa Crites (35:31)

Yeah, white knuckling it is an unbelievably painful way to do it, for sure, to just try to not. If you have an addictive mind and the mind can’t stop us, it’s beyond our power of will. ⁓ And so we may be like, you know, holding on for dear life to not consume the substance, but the truth is, is that we’re still dying inside. ⁓

Vanessa Crites (36:02)

As far as abstinent sobriety culture goes,

Vanessa Crites (36:08)

In AA in particular, as I mentioned, it is a singleness of purpose fellowship that deals exclusively with alcoholism. No other substances are mentioned. And it’s an outside issue, what I choose to do, ⁓ right? ⁓ There are fellowships that are abstinent sobriety. ⁓

Vanessa Crites (36:35)

where anything and everything is off limits. All mind altering substances are off limits ⁓ while people are still smoking their cigarettes and drinking their coffee and eating their sugar, which are all highly addictive and mind altering, right? So let’s try to put that in perspective. My view on it is that as a person in recovery, if I am exploring,

Vanessa Crites (37:03)

plant medicines, ⁓ psychedelics, earth medicines, and ⁓ these other spiritual tools in a conscious, responsible, and intentional way, there is zero conflict with who I am as a person in recovery. I’ve recovered from alcoholism and I do not drink. ⁓ I’m a person in recovery in good standing. And the work that I do,

Vanessa Crites (37:31)

is conscious, responsible, and intentional, and for the purpose of therapeutic and spiritual aid. I’m not jumping a fence and tripping balls in the woods with a bunch of friends. I’m approaching these medicines with reverence and humility, and as a student, to do deeper work on myself. And I think that’s the difference.

Sam Believ (37:55)

Yeah. And for those people who are maybe ⁓ worried that, you know, they are, they’ve been sober for a few years and what if they’re going to start working with those plant medicines? What if it will rekindle their desire for altered states of mind? Do you have, have you ever noticed that somebody after starting to work with ayahuasca or mushrooms all of a sudden started drinking again or maybe any words of assurance for those who are doubting this methodology?

Vanessa Crites (38:27)

I think that it is a full spectrum experience. It’s not just about the not drinking and it’s not just about the plant medicine. I think that we have to have a holistic approach to our recovery and factor in the entire human ⁓ experience, our meditation, our diet, our sleep, right? Our endocrine system, making sure that we’re detoxing.

Vanessa Crites (38:55)

and that we have a spiritual practice, that we’re focusing on the breath, that we’re connecting to the earth. And so it’s a full spectrum experience is the most important thing. And that for people who are ⁓ working with medicines and who are in recovery,

Vanessa Crites (39:21)

really understanding what your core beliefs are, what your limitations are, what is off limits, what is the gray line, what does it look like when you start to be compulsive in returning to ceremony after ceremony after ceremony, and you’re not giving yourself integration time. Because compulsion is not about the substance when it comes to psychedelics. It’s about

Vanessa Crites (39:48)

chasing the next peak experience. And so if we can be aware enough and know ourselves enough, and this is one of the reasons I said, get your recovery set, ⁓ establish your recovery first ⁓ before you start doing this exploration, because that really is the deeper work. And you have to have some foundation, some grounding ⁓ and stability.

Vanessa Crites (40:17)

before ⁓ we start approaching these so that you can actually approach it in a good way and in a way that is useful and beneficial long term.

Sam Believ (40:32)

You mentioned the holistic approach and ⁓ spiritual side of it. I totally agree with the holistic approach that ⁓ plant medicines is just a door that opens your ⁓ path to healing and then you need more than just, you know, you’re not going to drink ayahuasca every week, but you can drink it once and then integrate and then do all the work.

Sam Believ (40:57)

that’s necessary. I remember when I first came to work with psychedelics, I didn’t think much about the spiritual side of it. I was kind of against it. I thought, you know, well, this is this plant and there’s this ⁓ molecule and it does something in your brain and it makes you feel better, you know, easy as that. But obviously over time, now working with, you know, several years now hosting seven, I get plus people a year. I kind of got hold of the understanding of.

Sam Believ (41:27)

spiritual side of things. I mean, I’m still trying to understand it. So as a psycho spiritual integration coach, as you are, what do you think, what would you explain the spiritual side of healing that comes through plant medicines, whether in connection to addiction or just in general?

Vanessa Crites (41:48)

⁓ so I think everybody has their own personal experience. We all come from different histories and backgrounds. Some of us are dealing with religious or spiritual trauma. And ⁓ so my recommendation would be to have an open mind. Just have an open mind and be in the experience that you’re having ⁓ and that you don’t have to understand that.

Vanessa Crites (42:21)

It’s the experience that will happen over time ⁓ when it comes to a spiritual approach. And it’s not about religion and it’s not about dogma. It is about ⁓ what it is like for the individual to connect with the ineffable, to connect with ⁓ that which cannot be named.

Vanessa Crites (42:51)

And can we become one with that so that ultimately we can become one with ourselves?

Sam Believ (43:02)

Speaking about spiritual things, I just had a thought come to mind, you know, how come we call alcohol spirit? You know, what is ⁓ going on there? Have you heard anything or know anything?

Vanessa Crites (43:15)

Yeah, so like I said earlier on when I was telling my story the very first spiritual experience I ever had was when that piss fire hit my belly ⁓ I had a spiritual experience There are some people I don’t have a direct opinion on on that but i’ve heard a couple of things and some of the things i’ve heard is that alcohol is called spirits because they ⁓ have their own Spirit it is not necessarily

Vanessa Crites (43:46)

a spirit that is healthy or a teacher ⁓ and that it has, it takes over ⁓ the spirit of the person who’s consuming it. So that’s something that I’ve heard about that.

Sam Believ (44:02)

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Talk to us a little bit about your project, The Sobriety of the Souls.

Vanessa Crites (44:10)

Yeah, thank you. So, Brightie of the Soul is a educational platform and group coaching program for people who are in recovery, who want to make a safe and informed entry into the spiritual and therapeutic application of psychedelic medicines, ⁓ and, or spiritual and therapeutic, or therapeutic. It does not have to be one in the same.

Vanessa Crites (44:35)

because not everybody is coming to medicine to have a spiritual experience. There are a lot of medicines out there that are being used to treat depression and anxiety, and it’s an all levels course. So if you are a person in recovery who is curious and interested in what it means to be a person in recovery who incorporates psychedelic medicines into their, into sober living, what does that look like and how do I do it safely? If you’ve never,

Vanessa Crites (45:05)

done psychedelics, there’s a place for you. If you are, I have people who are in our community who are medicine carriers, people who have been in medicine space for many, many years, that is part of their life. And they are also people in recovery and they came to learn how to integrate what recovery means within the context of their.

Vanessa Crites (45:33)

active psychedelic work. ⁓ And we cover, ⁓ it’s evergreen with the meaning self -paced with an opportunity to meet weekly in a small group container for group coaching and integration where people can ask questions, they can integrate their experiences, they can metabolize the material.

Vanessa Crites (45:58)

And some of the things that we cover and I’ll sort of go over the arc, the very first thing that we do is personally identify what sobriety or what recovery means to the individual. What is my personal definition of recovery? And determining what our core beliefs are, what our limitations are, what things are off limits and getting really clear about our intentionality with approaching this path.

Vanessa Crites (46:25)

We also cover microdosing versus macrodose experiences and the dosing in between, clinical versus ceremonial application. ⁓ I do a 101 of all the medicines that are being used in either clinical or in therapeutic or spiritual contexts. We ⁓ explore… ⁓

Vanessa Crites (46:48)

Indigenous culture and sacred ceremony and what it means to work with medicines in a good way and be in right relationship with those medicines, safe sourcing, preparation, navigating the psychedelic arc, safe set and setting. We do an intention setting workshop. We cover everything, ⁓ soup to nuts ⁓ on what it means to do this work in a responsible.

Vanessa Crites (47:17)

way ⁓ that is safe and has integrity. And then I have bonus material for my beloved 12 steppers, ⁓ where we cover psychedelic history and Bill Wilson, the ceremony of the 12 steps, I cover both sides of the same coin. The first part is, how do we bring to have a new relationship to the steps, perhaps our first real ⁓ experience with the steps, or perhaps we want to have a new experience of the steps.

Vanessa Crites (47:46)

how to take a ceremonial approach to step work. And then the other side of that is how do we take step work into medicine work to do deeper dives with the support of medicine allies ⁓ on our step work. And then ⁓ I covered trauma healing and 12 step recovery as well. And the website is sobrietyofthesoul .com.

Vanessa Crites (48:11)

I’ll make available to your listeners. I have a recovery informed microdosing guide that I’ll supply a link for a free copy of that. It’s a beautifully curated 28 page guide for how to microdose and recovery. ⁓ And so I’ll make that available as well. And ⁓ that’s sobriety of the soul. And then I also have a private practice where I work with people one -on -one.

Sam Believ (48:39)

Thank you Vanessa, we’ll definitely share the link to your guide. Is there anything else we haven’t spoken about that maybe you would like to speak about?

Vanessa Crites (48:53)

I think what I would say is ⁓ to my fellows in recovery who are listening to this, whether you have an active practice or you’re brand new, just take heart ⁓ and know that if you are seeking ⁓ healing, spiritual connection,

Vanessa Crites (49:20)

you are on a right path ⁓ and ⁓ that there’s a lot of judgment and stigma ⁓ and ostracization happening in recovery communities around this path. Find the others, just find the others. Those people who are like -minded, who are on a similar path to you, to help keep you accountable, to being the medicine of community ⁓ so that you’re not walking this path alone.

Vanessa Crites (49:51)

and you’re doing good work.

Sam Believ (49:55)

Thank you, Vanessa. Where can people find more about you and your work?

Vanessa Crites (50:02)

So my personal website for the personal work that I do for my private practice is VanessaKreitz .com. And then anybody who’s interested in integrating psychedelic medicines into sober living in a safe and responsible way, they can check out sobrietyofthesoul .com.

Sam Believ (50:24)

Thank you, Vanessa. Thank you for coming. Thank you for sharing. I’m sure this was ⁓ entertaining and educational for many of our listeners. And yeah, for those of you who are ⁓ struggling with ⁓ addiction, ⁓ hope that helps and you recover faster. Thank you, Vanessa. Thank you for coming on.

Vanessa Crites (50:45)

Thank you so much for having me, Sam. It was an honor.

In this episode of AyahuascaPodcast.com host Sam Believ has a conversation with Cam Leids

 

We talk about how unfortunate life events sometime lead to awakening and better life, we talk about choosing Ayahuasca retreat,

 

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to 

http://www.lawayra.com

 

Find more about Cam at socials

@_tripsitting_

 

In this episode of AyahuascaPodcast.com host Sam Believ has a conversation with Ben Malcolm aka Spirit Pharmacist

 

We touch upon subjects of importance of preparation to Ayhauasca, Ayahuasca diet from scientific point of view, science of psychedelics and how his own journey was inspired by DMT experience.

 

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to 

http://www.lawayra.com

 

Find more about Ben at 

http://www.spiritpharmacist.com

 

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast the host Sam Believ has a conversation with Salimeh Tabrizi

 

We touch upon subjects of Ayahuasca, non duality, awakening, Zoroastrianism, psychedelic history of religions and more.

 

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to 

http://www.lawayra.com

You can find all podcast episodes and more at http://www.ayahuascapodcast.com

 

Find more about Salimeh at 

https://www.vibrantlifecounseling.com/

 

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast host Sam Believ has a conversation with Dr Dave Rabin

 

We talk about how psychedelics work from the point of view of neuroscience, neuroplasticity, studies Dave has conducted, apollo neuro wearable devices, group work vs individual work, legalization of MDMA and much more.

 

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to 

http://www.lawayra.com

 

Find more about Dave at 

http://www.drdave.io

@drdavidrabin

http://www.apolloneuro.com

 

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast host Sam Believ has a conversation with Mike J Roselfeld

 

Mike J. Rosenfeld is a transformative coach and speaker specializing in neuroscience, flow state optimization, and personal development.

 

We touch upon topics of flow Psychology, shadow work, psychedelics for high performers and much more.

 

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to 

http://www.lawayra.com

 

Find more about Mike at 

http://www.centrada.co

@mikejrosenfeld