In this episode of the Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ talks with Denny Goler, an entrepreneur and researcher who has gained viral attention as the “DMT Laser Guy.” Denny is the founder of Code of Reality, an organization that investigates simulation theory and the computational substrate of existence through experimental methods. By projecting a diffracted laser while in a DMT-induced state, Denny claims that anyone can observe what appears to be a “self-executing code”—a highly specific, non-random linguistic structure that suggests our physical world is a computationally rendered simulation.

Key Discussion Points

  • 04:15 – Denny’s early start with psychedelics (age 11) and how mushrooms eventually cured his debilitating OCD.
  • 08:30 – The “Frog Dude” encounter: The hyper-realistic experience that convinced Denny the DMT realm wasn’t just “in his head.”
  • 12:10 – The First Principles of the Laser Experiment: Why light and geometry are the keys to testing the reality of the space.
  • 15:45 – Describing the “Self-Executing Code”: Why it feels like looking through a microscope at an operating system rather than a typical “trip.”
  • 18:20 – Replicating the results: Shamanic experiments with Ayahuasca and the “8K resolution” version seen on 5-MeO-DMT.
  • 21:30 – The DIY setup: How to safely use a 5-milliwatt diffracted laser to see the underlying substrate of reality.
  • 25:00 – Challenging the Null Hypothesis: Why Denny assumes the phenomenon is real and invites science to prove him wrong.
  • 29:15 – The Specificity of the Code: Why the characters resemble Asian languages (Chinese/Japanese) more than random brain-generated patterns.
  • 33:40 – Perturbing the Observation: Code of Reality’s mission to use magnets and high-res video to find a scientific “handle” on the code.
  • 38:10 – Defining Simulation Theory: The world as a computationally rendered space that doesn’t negate spirituality or God.
  • 42:45 – The “Nested Dolls” of Reality: Communication with higher-dimensional species tending to different layers of our “game.”

The DMT Laser Experiment: A Summary

The core of Denny’s work involves the use of diffraction, which splits a single laser beam into a complex “speckle pattern.” In ordinary consciousness, this looks like static. Under the influence of DMT (or other tryptamines like Ayahuasca), the brain appears to use this pattern as a scaffolding to perceive a stable, moving, and intricate “code.”

Understanding the Computational Substrate

Denny argues that behind the laws of physics lies computation. If reality is a simulation, the “physical” world is simply the output of an underlying operating system. This perspective aligns with the “multiverse” theory, suggesting we are one sliver of a larger computational space.

Learn more about Denny Goler and his research:

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Transcript

Denny Goler: You project the diffracted laser on the surface, and you smoke DMT, and if you’re on DMT and you do this, you will see what seems to be a self-executing code. People sometimes are confused by the term self-executing, but it just seems like it’s running itself. The operating system itself, it’s of the same kind.

So you’re not in prison. Let’s just point that out. You’re not in prison. There’s nowhere to escape. People immediately say, “How do we escape the matrix?” You don’t. The matrix is everything there is. But essentially, at bottom, what it means is that the world is first computationally rendered, and then it’s physical in the way that we perceive it.

So basically, behind the laws of physics, there’s computation. I absolutely see meditation as the science of the inner world because in science, we observe what we’re trying to study closely. We’re trying to find patterns. We’re trying to find ways to communicate these patterns across individuals and see if they’re replicable.

Basically, I had a frog dude that appeared for me, and then he showed me how to play some chords, wh- which I didn’t know how to do. So he… I think it was a communication. He was basically saying, “I’m real ’cause you don’t know how to do this. There’s no way you’re getting this information from your im- imagination ’cause you have no idea how to do this.”

Sam Believ: You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast dot com.

Hi, guys, and welcome to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, we’re your host, Sam Beliaev, and today I’m having a conversation with Danny Goler. Danny is an entrepreneur, researcher, and creator dedicated to exploring the boundaries of human consciousness, physics, and reality. He’s the founder of Code of Reality, an organization focused on investigating the intersection of contemplative practices and experimental methods.

Known for his provocative research into simulation theory, Goler has gained significant attention for his experiments involving DMT and diffracted laser light. His work suggests that certain states of consciousness may allow individuals to perceive a self-executing code or a computational substrate underlying our physical existence.

It’s a mouthful. This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat. At LaWayra, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity. LaWayra, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you. Danny, welcome to the show.

Denny Goler: Thank you, Sam. That was really well executed. That’s the best introduction I’ve ever gotten, I think.

Very accurate.

Sam Believ: It was Gemini. It was really good. Okay.

I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna disclose my sources. Just kidding. Before you became a, a psychonaut and researcher now, yeah, tell us a little bit about your life. What, what brought you into this way of thinking and e- examining the universe?

Denny Goler: Yeah. Thank you for having me, first of all. It’s a lot of fun and you had pretty prominent guests, so I’m honored to be on your show. Y- yeah, I think before I became a psychonaut I was 10 years old. I started pretty early on, but not in any… obviously I- back then I didn’t have any predisposition towards healing or anything like this.

I was just like, “Let’s go see what’s up.” And so I started doing acid when I was, like, 11 or so. And it’s not like I was doing it every weekend, but I definitely, partaken in a lot of psychedelics in my teenage years. So by the time that I arrived into my 20s and I realized I have to reconfigure some things about who I am and how I live my life, I already had a pretty vast experience with these things.

And I also realized that a lot of, I don’t know if a lot, but definitely quite a few of my, hindrances as a person were remedied pretty substantially by specifically mushrooms in this case. I reali- I had a debilitating OCD when I was a little kid. We’re talking like, opening doors 200 times, things like this.

And it, I realized one day it was just gone. And I looked back, I was like, “Wait, I haven’t experienced it in years.” And then I traced back my steps and I realized, oh, it’s for sure due to mushrooms. ‘Cause I… You just kinda know. You’re like, “Oh yeah, it’s…” I remember I was kinda like going into these stuck patterns inside, and then I realized I can maybe utilize them for some, s- like doing something better with myself with an aim to do so versus just haphazardly happening to you.

So th- that kinda started that whole other mode of investigation. And then I slowly started also discovering, modern thinkers like Eckhart Tolle and people more in the spiritual realm. And I became more open-minded towards it, as before I was pretty kinda this is for weak people, things like this.

And then I started getting into meditation, and obviously I’m, s- making a very long story very short, but eventually I started discovering that there’s all these different modalities you can look at the problem through, and you can achieve different things, but it has to involve you participating pretty consciously.

And to some people today, this might sound like a duh, like obviously, right? You… With your work it’s a probably an obvious thing, but to me it wasn’t obvious at all. So slowly but surely I b- started doing more of that, and I started realizing that a lot of the experiences we’re having are not just what seems to be mind-made And eventually it led me many years down the line.

It led me to DMT and then to realize that there’s like way more than even I even previously thought. And then I slowly but surely started investigating that for years. And then I had an experience that now is kinda like this memeable thing, which is like I met the frog dude as, that just basically changed everything.

That was already after, I don’t know, like 30 years of experience or whatever, how many decades experience with psychedelics. All of a sudden a window opened for me of a realism level that was no longer shakable. It was like, okay, this is not in my head. There’s no way. It’s just way too real. And that is the thing that led me to what people know me for today, which is like I’ve s- over time I started asking the right questions and- The DMT

Sam Believ: laser guy.

Denny Goler: DMT laser guy. Yeah. Basically.

Sam Believ: Cool. Thank you for sharing your story. And it’s interesting. First of all, congrats on healing OCD. That’s that’s a big one. And we’ve had some people also get relief through Ayahuasca, but I think you, you kinda done it early in your life, which in a way is unorthodox, but probably worked for you ’cause your brain was more malleable.

And what you’re describing with like symptoms just gone, that happens very often where people come and they just wanna, they drink medicine from curiosity and then they stop drinking. Or in my case I was taking Ayahuasca for gut issues sorry for depression, and my gut issues were gone as a side effect.

So really interesting, but obviously you’re now known as this DMT laser guy. I really we’re focusing on Ayahuasca or psychedelics specifically from the point of view of healing, right? And you kinda done your healing and now you’re doing the, the spiritual exploration part, which which I think is inevitable.

But I don’t really know enough about this. Like honestly, as I was getting ready for this episode and I was listening to your conversations about simulation, I’m like, I’m… I felt like almost stupid in a way where I’m like, this is like way beyond my understanding. But let’s begin with what is the laser ex- DMT laser experiment?

Denny Goler: The DMT laser experiment, I basically, from that moment that I described to you where everything changed, I started asking seriously the question, if it’s not in my head- How can we tell? That was the question. It was like, okay, if it’s actually real, like for real, what can I ask the world that will give me back the answer, “Yes, it’s not in your head”?

And then I started thinking about this from first principles. So I knew that light had to be involved somehow. I knew that if the space is real, it has to have some geometry, it has to have some rules, all of these things that are pretty basic. Of course, like if the space is real it’s operating by some rules, right?

So then for years I was trying to think about this and nothing came of it. It was it was just a dead end every single time. And eventually, through a very long, tedious, and to be honest, quite boring story because it just involved me thinking about a lot of random things.

But eventually I reached this conclusion that somehow diffracted coherent light, which is diffracted laser, is supposed to do something. I wasn’t even sure why, but it was very clear to me that okay, that might actually do something here. And then I tried it and it worked. And what, when I’m saying worked, when I tried it for the first time, you project the diffracted laser on the surface and you smoke DMT, and if you’re on DMT and you do this, you will see what seems to be, just like Gemini said, what seems to be like a self-executing code.

People sometimes are confused by the term self-executing, but it just seems like it’s running itself, like it’s doing a thing. And it’s very difficult to point to as to why it’s more convincingly real than even the very real experiences people have on DMT as a whole. It might be its mundane nature.

It’s not as extravagant as some of the stuff that you would see in the, the DMT space, but it’s highly specific and very solid. So it’s not in terms of it’s not frozen, it’s moving, it’s doing a thing, but it’s very just there there, there’s a– It’s almost like you’re looking through a window at something.

It feels more like looking through a microscope into a world that you’ve never seen before that is just operating and doing its own thing than A, a DMT flash or an Ayahuasca experience where the visuals are more alive. They have an or- almost like an organic nature. They’re part of… There’s an interaction with your inner state, how you feel, the music that is playing.

It weaves its- itself around it, right? The reason we sing Icaros is because we almost channel the energy in a particular way. So it responds to us, right? The code doesn’t. It’s just doing its own thing. And I had people who– obviously we tried to do a lot of things to it physically. Magnets and different settings and surfaces, all kinds of things.

And yes, frequencies and all of these things, and nothing matters. And I even had people who are pretty prominent and known to be very strong energy practitioners, who were very confident. They came in and said, here, I’ll s- I’ll show you, I’ll show you how to do this.” And then they would try do a thing.

Send it love or whatever it is that they were trying. They were all very surprised. It just doesn’t care. It’s just doing its own thing. So it’s almost like it exists in some kind of a subspace doing some kind of a thing for seemingly everybody who sees it, which is a very large percentage of people who try it right away, and it’s always the same content.

So in short, that’s the laser DMT experiment, and now there’s, the extrapolation of what does that mean what kind of things we really tried, what’s our newest ideas about it, is really the, the thing that I’m engaged with day-to-day, both with our team of Encoded Reality and with the public

Sam Believ: Well, let’s before we go into what does it mean and your later findings do I understand correctly that it’s basically like you’re looking at this refracted, reflection of this laser and then what is kinda like matrix-like code, right?

Denny Goler: Basically, yeah.

Sam Believ: Okay. My next question is obviously people see it while smoking DMT. Obviously I’m here at an Ayahuasca retreat and I have a ceremony tonight, and obviously the, the ingredient is DMT, one of the main ingredients. Have people been able to replicate it- Yeah … on Ayahuasca?

Denny Goler: Yeah. I had a shaman in Costa Rica who did this, and he put the laser on the, like facing up on the ceiling.

They had this wavy ceiling and obviously after people went through everything they had to go through, not during the peak, but kinda like at the tail end of the experience, he just put it on the floor and everybody laid in a circle around it. So they were looking at the ceiling and they… He said they just started laughing ’cause it was everybody just…

It filled everybody with joy, which I loved hearing. But he said it was just like a really funny moment ’cause he was trying to like, you know- Oh, I remember now. ‘Cause he was trying to focus it for them, and then after about however many minutes, they real- they didn’t realize he was trying to make it more clear for them, but they were seeing it the whole time.

So they all started laughing that he was just standing there doing this. So it just, it was, it… And you know how it is, right? Everything in this space, I do believe that myself, nothing is coincidental. So it’s almost like it brought humor to the picture, so the- and I really enjoyed hearing this.

But yeah- … the short answer is yes, you can replicate. You can do this with Ayahuasca, you can do this with mushrooms. You can do this, as far as we can tell, with all tryptamines. And even, which was very surprising to me, you can see it with 5-MeO. And not only you can see it with 5-MeO, 5-MeO makes it even more clear.

So it makes it almost like an 8K version of itself.

Sam Believ: Yeah. We have maloca, right? And there is bathrooms. So I’m thinking if I, if on the passage from the maloca to the bathrooms, I would shine the laser on a wall or on the roof, and people can, if they’re curious, they can just look. ‘Cause, you can still walk around, but you’re, you are connected to the medicine, so they could do a little bit of science.

You make me wanna try that. So technically, what should I buy? If I go on Amazon what should I buy?

Denny Goler: There’s a list. If you go to Code of Reality, to the page Do It Yourself we have a list of the exact items you can get from Amazon, as long as it has these specs. So the laser has to be diffracted.

It has to come with a diffracted lens, so a laser pointer is not gonna work. Not just because of the surface area, but s- … for some reason it doesn’t work without the diffraction. And and also make sure that the laser is no more than five milliwatts. Preferably one milliwatt, ’cause then you can basically sit for hours and look at it, and nothing’s gonna be wrong.

But if you go beyond that, then you start playing with potential damage to the cornea,

Sam Believ: yeah. Okay. Yeah, I’ll make sure if we- if I try it- … I’ll be careful with it. So yeah if I understand it correctly, what you’re proving is that the things while you’re tripping, it’s enhanced reality, right?

Denny Goler: Yeah, I think it’s beyond… It’s a th- real thing beyond this, yes.

Sam Believ: Okay. Okay, let’s let’s talk about then what did you find so far with with your organization? What is the next cutting edge discovery?

Denny Goler: So right now our Holy Grail is to try and perturb the observation in some way.

Because if we can do that, it will give us a handle on, A, what exactly is it? Where is the information instantiated? And also potentially how we can do something with it. Currently, the code simply is just doing its own thing, and it doesn’t really matter what you do, who you are, where you are, how you…

It just makes no difference. But if we can even slightly perturb the observation or maybe even the code itself, the– and given that it would have to be agreeable by many individuals, not b- just by one, right? So if that would happen, then it gives you a handle. It gives you a real scientific handle. If I put something like, if I do put somebody in an an MRI, a very powerful magnet, and I turn it on, and then something about the observation changes now I know that at least there’s a handle here.

There’s something that I can do to the brain to make it look different, and then it tells me that the perception of the brain in that moment is different, and then I can ask how. Then I can put magnets in different parts of the brain and see if it changes it there. So that’s the main thing we’re trying to do.

That being said, we have encountered some, recently some interesting sets of experiments with with a microscope, one with a microscope. The other one is with high-resolution images of a laser that seems to be freezing the picture of the code, so now it’s not moving. You can actually– Like, it’s frozen.

And that allows us to study it more specifically. We haven’t sta- started the sets of tests for this yet. We will very soon ’cause it requires a l- a much better organization and really start putting it into a real scientific framework. So we’re working on, coming up with the right budget for it and all of that.

In the meanwhile, we’re running a bunch of kinda like quick and dirty, tests for it. One of the things we want to try is to see if we can potentially have people look in the same region and then see if we can have some coherence of description. ‘Cause the main problem with the way that the code appears for people in the when it’s moving, like when it’s the regular code, is that there’s millions of characters, and there’s different degrees of freedom along which they’re moving.

It’s not random. They’re discernible. You can s- you can see what they are, but everything is changing so quickly. You can’t really go like capture, like a moment and say, “Oh, that’s what happened,” or, “That’s what happened.” If it’s frozen, it gives us more of that handle. So that’s in short.

Our main attempt is now to see what tests would yield this potential change to either the code or the observation of the code, so it can tell us what it is. O- one of the biggest– And by the way, one of the biggest pushbacks obviously from people who are trying to kinda explain it away, which I’m, by the way, I’m all for because I think it just need to go through the real ringer of science and come out on the other end victorious if it is a real phenomena One of the biggest contentions is this is might be just some kind of a projection the brain is doing.

I have no problem with this theory, but then you would have to explain why is it specifically these characters, which are highly specific. And I wanna be clear, to people who’ve, have done many Ayahuasca ceremonies, they’re not that alien to alien language. People sometimes see code and language and things like this with other substances.

And I think they’re all real, but I think what is different about what we see in the laser is how stable and also how specific it is. So for example, if you look at the Alice in Gray characters, right? W- they’re very– There you go. They’re v- they’re very famous in the ps- psychedelic circles, right?

I can look at the Alice in Gray characters and say, “I’m not sure it’s language.” I can say I can see how you can think that maybe it is language, but I can also see how maybe this is just the brain going through some kind of a process of the edge detection is doing something, right? It’s, it kinda solidifies into these square things.

The language in the codes doesn’t seem to be like that. It’s way more, complex and highly specific. It resembles more like an Asian language, like Japanese or Chinese than just like blocky things. So you would still have to explain, even if you’re saying, okay, it’s some kind of a the, the architecture of the brain somehow using speckle as scaffolding and projecting things on it, you still would have to explain why it’s this language.

And but by perturbing the observation of the code, we would have some entry point. We would say, “Okay, what is actually happening here?” I don’t know if that answered your question, but that, those are the main things we’re thinking about.

Sam Believ: So I remember once I had an experience on ayahuasca where I was seeing it sitting in front of the fire.

There were stones around the fire, and I could see language on the stone. Stone.

Denny Goler: Yep. Language on the stone and also hexagons, right? The, it’s embedded in these hexagonal structures, almost like a honeycomb, correct?

Sam Believ: I don’t remember that part. Okay. But I’ve definitely … Sometimes I look at like gravel, for example, and everything has a pattern.

Even though I know there is no pattern, like without ayahuasca in my system.

Denny Goler: Yeah.

Sam Believ: But I, I, in that vision, in that moment, saw there were stones and each stone around the, the fire had its own kind of language. And it’s almost like I’m that kind of stone, or I’m that kind of stone. Yeah. And then I could see flows of energy from around going to the fire and burning in it.

And I remember back then, like thinking “Is it me just tripping?” Because I could look away and look back, it was still there. Is it me just tripping- … or is it me unlocking the new way of perception through ayahuasca? And then I came up with the experiment as well which I never did, but the idea was there.

If I’m looking at the actually alternative reality, that would mean that if I’m having the same experience, which would be really hard to replicate because ayahuasca is a little unpredictable, if I would look at it at the screen, for example, would it still show it or not? If it wouldn’t, then it would prove that it is Just a so if I would not see it on a screen, but I would see it in an actual fire, it would prove that the, the fire is just me accessing the…

It’s like putting glasses on where I can all of a sudden see something that I normally don’t see, which is already always there. I don’t know if that makes any sense, but-

Denny Goler: It does make perfect sense, yes. It’s es- essentially, and the answer to whether you see it in the picture with the code in the laser is that the answer is yes.

And what’s interesting is that it seems to be frozen, which is interesting because it’s a still image. So now we have to run this test also with a very high resolution video. To s- we haven’t done this yet because for Apple Vision Pro, it’s actually a very complicated setup. It’s not that easy to record video.

But if but we will be doing this, and we’ll be reporting. So if the characters are moving in the video and not moving in the still image, it definitely gets us somewhere. It doesn’t necessarily prove, disprove anything yet because you, there’s a lot of things you can assume about this They would still explain it either way.

You can still say maybe there’s something about stochastic patterns in general, because if you’re just filming a stochastic pat… sorry, a, a random pattern, which is the s- the speckle, right? The light. Maybe the, the brain is just using any random pattern to do that. You can still say that.

But at least it gives you one step closer. It tells you something. And I would say that even in your test, it’s still s- i- if somebody is committed to explain it away, they could. They still could. But this is the problem with these kind of ideas. If the assumption that one makes if the question that one asks in the service of trying to explain this away is can the brain technically make this happen just from inside?

Of course. The answer is always yes. That’s not a good question ’cause it’s, ’cause the answer is always yes. You have to find some other discerning factor here, which is why the problem is so difficult. And basically what I did is, in science I just want maybe be sensitive to the audience is let– I don’t know how many people are really familiar with scientific ways of thinking about it, but there’s something called null hyph- hypothesis, which is just basically means it’s more from statistics.

But basically, what is the thing that is… What is the basis assumption here? So basically, null hypothesis means it’s the, the explanation is that there was nothing there, right? It was just like it was imaginary, let’s say. Okay. I just flipped the null hypothesis. So for me, I’m saying, okay, I’m gonna think as if from the perspective of what would have to be true if it is real.

That’s my null hypothesis. And then how do, how can I treat all the other assumptions about it as a misconception? It doesn’t mean that I’m trying to explain them away, but I basically flipped it on its head, and I’m al- allowing myself to approach this from the perspective as if it’s real, and then does it match my observation?

And that, that definitely rubs a lot of scientists the wrong way because now you’re introducing your bias into it, like you want it to be one thing or another thing.

But I think in order to move forward, we have to allow ourself to, for a moment assume… We have to occupy a state of being that gives us like this confidence that it is real and see what comes out of it.

If eventually, after 10 years, like nothing comes out of it it’s just okay, then everybody would admit that there’s nothing there. But right now there seems to be quite a few things that are aligning, so we’re pretty confident in the way we’re going about it.

Sam Believ: So let’s assume it is real and you figure it out and obviously with everything you know, talking about simulation and the nature of reality if your assumptions are correct, what is reality in that case?

Denny Goler: So reality is a… that’s a really important and central

Sam Believ: question. Dumb, dumb it down because I have really hard time understanding it. I don’t know I’m a smart guy, I don’t know why for some reason it’s hard for me to understand this stuff.

Denny Goler: So sometimes I don’t th- I actually don’t think it has anything to do with complexity or information.

Sometimes the way you perceive the world includes certain models that are simply not as attractive, and your brain might be rejecting it from that reason. I don’t think it has anything to do with complexity. So really when somebody’s saying simulation theory, there’s a lot of flavors of it, but essentially at bottom what it means is that the world is first computationally rendered and then it’s physical in the way that we perceive it.

So basically behind the laws of physics, there’s computation. It’s really all it’s saying. We kinda think of simulation, the word simulation in terms of fakeness ’cause we take something and we mimic something else, right? We try a, we run a simulation of something. But if the world at bottom is computational that’s the most fundamental thing- Then simulation is j- just means one sliver of reality.

It’s one world among many that are in this larger computational space. So for all intents and purposes, you can think of it like the multiverse, that just the multiverse works by computational rules. That’s it. That’s really all it means. It does not negate any spiritual components. It does not negate divinity.

It does not negate God. In fact, if anything, it includes that more into the picture because now you know there’s a… And by the way, there’s a difference between simulation theories that basically assume that the world is basically like this enormous computational system at bottom, but there is no God.

There’s just, the rules are computational. And the other com- simulation theory in which you say, “No, there’s like a more advanced species that are running our world on some kind of a substrate,” which is what I am saying. So now I don’t know, this is after conversations with my wife, I realize that the code itself doesn’t necessarily square that point.

The, just the fact that you’re seeing some kind of a language in a laser while on DMT, it doesn’t really tell you ultimately that it’s a simulation. I’m bringing it from my perspective after years and years of investigation and directly communicating with these beings, and eventually it was, just shown to me directly that’s the case.

And I think that the reason that we’re becoming aware of this, even without the simulation theory, I’m sure you experience this in your work a lot, there seems to be some kind of a ramping up of awakenings, and it happens on different levels for people. And I think the reason it’s going on is because the species is waking up or becoming aware of more what in fact there is to be aware of.

And part of that more to be aware of is the fact that, yes, the, it’s just like this nested dolls, layers of reality, and there are species that are tending to different layers of reality, which to a lot of people again, I’m pretty sure that in the Ayahuasca community, that idea is actually not that weird because it’s a, the belief is already to a large degree that you’re communicating with some kind of energies and spirits that are real, probably, more fundamental than us, and we just get to partake in their presence basically.

And so in that regard, you can think of it like that. It’s not like simulation is more adhering to the technical part, so how is the world, the, the world that we experience as the physical world constructed by these computational rules? But within it, you absolutely have spiritual growth and ascension and all of the things that you would imagine to be, part of the vocabulary that people from more of shamanic and spiritual communities would use.

Does that make more sense or?

Sam Believ: A little bit, yes. I’m

Denny Goler: still not- G- what, what part of the simulation you feel confuses you? Let, let’s take it from there. So

Sam Believ: I’ll… So for example, right? I originally I’m a marine mechanical engineer, and when we were… Sometimes there’s training in which you simulate an engine room, and you simulate a certain environment, and you do it because you can train for those situations, right?

So a lot of people believe also in Eastern spirituality that we come here as souls to learn a lesson, and then we go somewhere else, right? There is this process we go through, and I- I’ve seen tens and tens of people discover that notion through ayahuasca directly. So I do believe there is some meaning to it.

So in that case- I agree with

Denny Goler: that, by the way.

Sam Believ: Yeah. I also lean towards it because I don’t really have any other reasonable explanation for as to why we’re here. So in that case it’s important for us to be in that simulation as we’re learning a certain kind of lesson, but it’s important for us to believe it’s real in order for it to make a real impact.

It’s like if you’re… if somebody tells you “We’re gonna pretend that we’re killing you,” versus they will, without telling you, pretend that they’re killing you, it’s gonna be a different reaction from you. So it’s like, is some… is that reality being simulated for our souls or consciousness to get that kind of lesson, and now all of a sudden we can see through it?

That’s first question, and second question in it is if it is the case what does it do to us? If we see that it’s people say it’s your life is just a game, whatever. But it’s like you cut yourself and you hurt yourself, right? So you kinda, you still kinda treat it as real.

What is it gonna do to our society if everyone’s like, “Yeah, it’s obviously a simulation”? Dan- Danny proved it, right? Will people stop playing the game?

Denny Goler: The… Okay, those are very good clarifying things. Thank you. So the the answer to your first question is because it’s coming to a close.

So when you start… When you’re getting to the end of whatever level this is, right? If you have to go back to the the higher levels of emergence, if you just go from this to there , it’s too jarring for your mind. It’s just too much. So you have to slowly get acclimated to the idea again.

Almost like you said, a marine

Sam Believ: Mechanical engineer …

Denny Goler: mechanical engineer.

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Denny Goler: It’s almost like the the recompression room. Exactly the same thing. You’re now in the recompression room, just i- idea-wise. So the ideas have to flow a little bit more naturally, so you have to kinda get used to the fact that actually… people talking about the the disclosure with UAPs, right?

With UFOs and things like this. So the reason that it’s not very likely to happen like in an announcement is because that’s the most aggressive way of delivering enormous news. You just hope that, people would be like, “Oh,” like I know a lot of people are waiting for it, but I don’t think they truly considered what it would be like to truly receive these news.

So there has to be– there would be a protocol, especially if you’re talking about a more advanced civilization that is announcing themselves to us. You would, w- you would expect them to have some pretty good ethical boundaries and some good taste plus some understanding of our social psychology to deliver the news slowly.

And I think what the real what the real what we experience as awakening is the disclosure. It’s essentially that everybody personally are slowly being informed in the way that they can perceive it that is more gentle for them, like they’re slowly getting used to these ideas, which first requires all the healing and all of these things, right?

So that’s the first part, which is like, why would we become… ’cause I hear your point, like if believing that it’s real is part of what it’s for, so why are, what is the point of discovering that it isn’t real? When it’s coming to a close, then you have to be able to withstand that im- ontological impact.

The s- when you’re waking up from a very long dream, you basically have to be gently nudged first before you’re fully woken up. The second part even without Danny, there’s already, these ideas are on the table for a long time, and if you haven’t noticed it, it doesn’t really mean much to anyone unless they decide to partake in it there’s a lot of famous idea…

There’s these ideas are out there in physics community, and these are not new ideas. It’s the thing that makes the most sense because of what we understand about computation from a technical standpoint. So the fact that you can compute at all in the universe, the fact that it’s possible to compute, isn’t some property that arises from the laws of physics.

It’s not there. It’s just possible. You can compute with the waves of the ocean because they have a binary up and down. It’s just gonna take forever, but you absolutely can do this. You can run simulations of the waves of the ocean and accelerate it, and you will see you can build software within this simulation just b- like software within software, like using the waves of the ocean.

But the fact that it’s possible is just another law of physics. It’s just possible. It’s just another law of physics in our universe. And because you can technically simulate way more than what the laws of physics are, it tells you that it’s more fundamental. Now, obviously, some physicists would disagree with this, and there’s a big argument going on, but this idea is not new.

But to your question directly, what does it look like when people fully figure it out? It-

This idea that a lot of people believe in the way that the Mayans believe it, right? This is all Maya. This is all illusion. I would flip it on its head. I would say it’s the one thing that can’t possibly be an illusion. It’s the one thing you will ever have that is actually real.

If you walk in the middle of the night and stub your toe on your bed or something, and it really hurts, will it help you that I’m telling you that it’s all an illusion? No. The experience in that moment is all that’s real to you. As long as there’s a conscious observer on any level of reality, it doesn’t matter how it came to be, that is reality for that conscious being.

So coming to terms with that and just accepting exactly how things unfold in that moment is the true freedom, ’cause then you just become… Y- you, you free yourself to experience anything, and it doesn’t really matter how it came to be. So I don’t think that just by believing that somebody else someb- somewhere in the world proved to you that, here we’re in a simulation, is gonna do much if their particular mind can’t really grapple with that fact.

Th- there would have to be an absorption of these facts for what they really are, and that can only happen in direct experience. Now, k- do I know this for sure? Of course not, but the best I can do is go according to what feels right to me, and I’m trying my best to follow, what some people call the way of the Tao.

I’m just trying to follow the next moment that feels correct to me, and I’m doing my absolute best to include as many criteria as possible. So I’m really trying my best to consider the greater good of all within the limitations of what I’m, what I have at the moment. And I believe that’s, that’s the best we can do.

That’s, I’m always open for revision. I’m always listening to w- how what I say impacts other people. As long as 80% of the emails I get are of the flavor of I have n- I have new reason to live,” and, I sometimes I get pretty grim emails about “I wanted to end it and now I have a re- I wanna see what happens.”

It gives people meaning. As long as 80% of the emails are positive, I feel like I’m in good p- good place, and w- it doesn’t, I… It doesn’t escape me that there’s some responsibility there, if that’s the core of your question. But I am doing my best to try and pay attention to that and not just kinda, say whatever.

Sam Believ: So if, let’s say this is all a sim- simulation, right? And we’re basically an aquarium with fish in it, and there’s somebody, like catering to that experience, right? Oh there’s this little chest, the bubbles come up, and it opens up. Somebody’s done a really good job. And then all of a sudden, one fish realizes we are a fish in aquarium, right?

And then it tells- … somehow educates other fish through, through podcasts, right? But it still doesn’t mean they can leave the aquarium, right? What is… I don’t know if it’s a good analogy, but it’s in Matrix, in the movie Matrix, I’ve, I forgot the character, but there’s this one, one character with mustache and the bald guy, right?

And

Denny Goler: he- yeah Cypher,

Sam Believ: yeah. He betrayed his team, and then he decided to go back into simulation, forget everything, and just live a, an awesome sort of life. I don’t know where I’m going with

Denny Goler: that. No, I know exactly what you’re asking, is what is the point of discovering a space that you will never have anything to do with?

Is that along the lines of the question?

Sam Believ: Kinda, yeah. Can you… what is outside of the simulation, right? Like-

Denny Goler: Yeah. So I think… How much time do we got? This one is a complex one. Yeah. Let- okay, let’s try, let… Okay, let’s try and break it down simply. So there’s two things here to be considered.

The first one is that the situation we’re in, according to what I’m saying it’s not like in The Matrix. So we’re not in prison. It’s that all of reality is computational. So it’s not like there’s a computer world that is a prison and you have to get out to the real world. The real world is computational.

We are the subset. It’s almost like a little piece of a much larger

Sam Believ: space. Like a

Denny Goler: program. But all of it is. All of them are programs. There’s not one thing that isn’t. Like

Sam Believ: a program within an operating system.

Denny Goler: Yeah, but the operating system itself, it’s of the same kind. So you’re not in prison.

Let’s just point that out. You’re not in prison. There’s nowhere to escape. People immediately say, “How do we escape the matrix?” You don’t. The matrix is everything there is. It’s just that th- in, in this case, the matrix becomes a, a problematic term ’cause we associate the movie with prison and all of that, but it’s not like that, right?

So there’s nowhere to go but exactly where you are. But the larger understanding allows you to do potentially more, just like when you discover more laws of physics, you can do more. That’s really all the only thing that is added here. If it’s true, we wanna know it, right? So now, this, the, there’s this other component that is a little bit more difficult to outline in a short period of time, but- The truth is that we are somehow swimming in a world that on the one hand feels alien to us, on the other feels like there’s nothing else for us, right?

So if you… So it’s like the question you asked me about the one fish that discovered that he’s a fish in an aquarium, it’s exactly the same thing that all species do when they manage to do all of a sudden a thing they couldn’t do before. If one metaphor I’ve been using recently was the, if there’s creatures in the forest and they’re always like, their neck muscles don’t allow them to look up, right?

So they’re just only looking down. But they live, they perfectly fine. They’re just, on the ground and they eat little things on the ground. They can maybe look to the side a little bit to see each other kind of, but they have no idea there are trees. They, but the trees are real, right? And just like in the aquarium example, because they are the kind of creature that developed to just live off the ground, the trees are not relevant to them currently.

But imagine one of them all of a sudden is born with some kind of an operation and they can look up now. Their neck muscles allow them to look up. They look up and they’re like, “Oh.” And then they look down and start telling people about “Oh my God,” “This, look up.” And they’re like, “What does that mean?

I don’t even know what that means.” In the meanwhile, they’re looking like, “Oh my God, now I know why we’re being, why we just disappear sometimes.” Because there’s these flying things, and sometimes one of them comes and takes one of us. But to others, it’s just like it doesn’t make any sense.

So then you’re asking me So what is the point of that neck muscle? It’s not like it has a point, it’s just that’s what happened. So what I’m equivocating to this neck muscle is that humans have certain mental abilities. We are entering a more universal space of operation. Th- this is why the equivocation with other animals is a little problematic when you equate it to humans, because we are a little different in that regard.

So our neck, all of our extra muscles now grow inside the head, or our ability to perceive more. And when we start to do that asking should we is an irrelevant question because we can. So if you can, what, what do you do then? S- just stop looking up? You see what I’m saying? So it’s like, okay, then now you’re capable of that.

So the species who are aware of you but you’re not aware of them, now they have an ethical obligation to maybe he- if they’re a, a, a good species, they have an ethical obligation to help you understand and… ‘Cause now you can look up. They can’t prevent you from looking up. That’s… Why would they do that?

That’s like intervening with a different species, right? No. Now I’ll help you understand. Another example that I was using that may be a little easier to see I don’t know if you know this, but recently some monkeys were observed to enter kinda like their version of the Stone Age, ’cause they found that some of them are using spears to fish, things like this.

So if this trend will continue, eventually this species and maybe other species of monkeys and and apes will start evolving probably in a somewhat of a similar way to what humans went through hundreds of thousands of years ago, maybe millions of years ago. And by then, because, technology goes like this, right?

By then we would be traversing the stars, going to other galaxies, whatever. Okay, then look at it from our perspective. If we’re the more advanced species and we’re seeing them evolving into this space, we now know that they’re probably capable of more advanced thought, and therefore more capable, more prone for other kinds of suffering, ’cause the more you expand the mind, it, there’s all kinds of d- degrees of freedom you can suffer in, right?

So then if we’re using these enormous ships around them It’s too much. It’s so we would have… if we can, we have to think of ways to make ourselves less noticeable to them so we don’t disturb their evolution, right? And then we, if we can, we make ourselves invisible to them until the point when they are capable of understanding the, the, what we’re doing and why that is, and then at that point, we’re no longer allowed to stop them from understanding more.

But what we can do is help them understand more. So if you look at it from our perspective, so in this case, we are the monkeys, and we are kinda reaching this new level of understanding with these spiritual realms, and there’s an entire ecosystem of other species that exist there, and they see us and we don’t see them most of the time.

Some people do. Some people have these neck muscles, and they’ve been telling us. But when we evolve enough, they’re… It’s not an option for them to tell us, “Hey, stop evolving.” That’s not, that’s just natural way of… So then they will help us understand. And I think that everything we heard from, all of these attempts throughout the ages, through religions the golden rule, all these things, it’s essentially little nudges, like little hints that they’re giving us constantly.

It’s like, “Hey, you might wanna get your behavior like this. Just behave like this. Because if you will, we can allow you in to the larger, galactic family or whatever. If you won’t, it’s not like we don’t want to let you in, but we just can’t. Y- if you c- if you don’t have your act together on a certain level, you’re not invited.”

So that’s what I think is going on, which is like we evolve to a level where we start to understand they can’t stop us from evolving, for keep, from keeping evolving, so they’re gently trying to help us to kinda understand more. Does that make sense?

Sam Believ: Kinda, yeah. I- when you were talking about, like, all other species, like obviously there’s- If I’m this advanced species and monkeys are evolving, my intuition wouldn’t be like, “Oh, let’s just leave them alone.”

Mine would be like why don’t we give them some mushrooms and see if they evolve even faster?” Sh-

Denny Goler: and no and we will. But in addition to that, the operation that we can’t stop because it’s a part- part of our infrastructure. Imagine if there’s something… Imagine something super specific, like if there’s a, a star base somewhere around where they live and it’s super loud and crazy because we haven’t figured out how to do it quietly yet.

What… D- does that sound ethical? No. You’re, like, disturbing their peace, right? And also, you’re really scaring them ’cause they don’t know what’s going on. Yeah, you will give them mushrooms and all of that, but it will still take them time to evolve. So you wanna be aware of where they are in their level of understanding.

I agree with you. We wanna give them more and more tools, and if we can accelerate their process in a way that won’t disturb it, we should also do that. But in the meanwhile, whatever is already in place, if it’s part of our, infrastructure that requires our existence, and I think that these species, they just found a way to become invisible.

They are… The reason that the universe seems empty is because they just made themselves either dark matter or whatever it is. Now, all of these, obviously these ideas are, like, super, out there and I’m not claiming to know this for sure, but I do know that there are other species for sure.

That I know ’cause I’m interacting with them on a regular basis. So- Yeah.

Sam Believ: That’s, that, that’s pretty fringe, yeah. But let’s let’s assume that people listening to this podcast are into Ayahuasca and they’ve seen plenty of crazy things themselves and-

…

Sam Believ: Will allow themselves to go through this thought experiment just for the sake of entertainment.

Basically what you’re trying to say is if I succeed in my dream of giving Ayahuasca to everyone and we awaken the consciousness, then we will unlock the aliens finally.

Denny Goler: We will reach certain level of a- awareness from which they’re just obviously there, yeah.

Sam Believ: Cool. Okay, let’s go back to more-

practical stuff. It is a simulation. What you’re saying is correct. We’ve proven it’s a simulation. How do we if we can’t leave it, how do we use it to make our simulations more comfortable? Let’s say, obviously, I’m a big believer in manifestation. Everything I have in life right now was a dream for me five years ago, and I kinda manifested it, right?

So knowing that, is the, is, does it does it allow any perks? Is there any practical use cases?

Or is it not the point?

Denny Goler: I think not much more than you would get than from, let’s say, what you do. So I think that is actually… So knowing that there are simula- that there are computational rules behind the laws of physics, if you find ways to perturb these computational rules, it will for sure give you abilities that are way greater than, than we currently have.

You maybe can move faster than light, maybe you can bend a lot. And again, these ideas are not mine. These are, ha- have existed for a long time a- among serious scientists. I don’t know if you’re familiar with Donald Hoffman’s work, but it’s very much along these lines. Wheeler famously coined the term “it from bit.”

These ideas go way back. The, the question about practical in the day-to-day I don’t think so or not immediately. I think that the much more relevant work is how we, as software inside of this computational reality, is operating with more harmony with its immediate environment, which has a lot more to do with your work than it has to do with my work.

So the healing, the rebalancing of this, of the human species through individuals, I think that’s really the main… That’s where the rubber touches the road. And I do believe that eventually, and, time will tell if I’m right about this, but when enough of us collectively reach a certain state of harmony just naturally, so there’s not so much tra- generational trauma to heal, but there’s more just kinda like humans that are born to parents that are already healed, so then they grow up to be a pretty different human, right?

I do believe that certain abilities will open up, and I don’t think they’re magic. I think that there are certain informational channels that when you’re aligned with them, you can operate through them. I’m sure you’re probably familiar with the telepathy tapes. So I think that the reason that all the kids from the telepathy tapes are constantly talking about love and all of these things, I think it’s because in order to be able to do that easily, like to really have telepathy that like I’m moving my hand, you have to occupy a certain state of being which is aligned with these other channels that are open for other beings.

So I do believe that from a practical standpoint, in the immediate moment, it won’t show much promise of that kind. But enough time if you do focus on the stuff like healing and, bringing humanity to a more equilibrium state, then certain real abilities, even very technical abilities, maybe even moving objects with your mind, things like this I would not rule this out.

Like it would… I don’t know if that’s the case, but I wouldn’t be surprised. I wouldn’t be surprised if you all of a sudden can do certain things that previously you couldn’t, just simply because you aligned.

Sam Believ: Yeah, it’s an interesting thought. W- what if it’s like a four-minute mile, like, when this person ran a four-minute mile first, and before people thought it was not possible.

Now we have this knowledge, and then second, once again, I don’t really quote Matrix that much, but in this conversation comes up very often. But there’s he’s in this place and there’s this kid bending the spoon, right? So it’s like just seeing him do it probably makes you believe more.

It’s like, kind of power of mind over matter. I guess if you prove it, then it makes it even more so would, would that knowledge being largely… Let’s say you prove your theory and we get even more science there and we just K- like we believe quantum physics now, right?

Because it’s been proven, so we are working quantum computers, right? So to work on quantum computers, we first need to believe that quantum physics is real. So it’s like- … what if we believe that s- it’s a simulation and then it unlocks something in front of it after one person does it. Maybe some form of a prophet comes and be like, “Yeah, by the way, here’s how you do this.”

And then everyone’s like, “Speaking of prophets, you look awful like Jesus.”

Denny Goler: Yeah. Keep, people keep telling me. I try to cut my hair. The universe wouldn’t let me, so I took it as a sign. Like the- I actually tried to cut my hair exactly because of that and it was really funny ’cause, because I did not want people to think that.

Sam Believ: Yeah.

Denny Goler: But it just literally just kept on not happening, so I was like, “Okay. I’ll take this as a sign for now.”

Sam Believ: You look specifically like a Christian Orthodox version of Jesus, which is the religion to which I was baptized. N- I’m not very religious, but I did have my experiences.

Denny Goler: The, the Russians are very…

That’s basically the mainstream in Russia. I am Russian originally, so maybe that’s why.

Sam Believ: Interesting. But yeah. L- you have any thoughts about the, the original question before the Jesus part?

Denny Goler: The four-minute mile. But what was it specifically? You have a question about that, though.

Sam Believ: Yeah, the question is- If no what do you think about people knowing that it’s the thing, and then m- it proving that mind over matter even more, will it allow people to everyone all of a sudden everyone starts to live good because people just start manifesting positive things?

Yeah. Mind the… this is a very uncomfortable conversation for me. That’s I never have podcasts like this. People will be like, “What is he talking about?”

Denny Goler: So let me connect it to something. Is it mo- Okay, so let me understand. Is it people that… Because if you’re coming from the Ayahuasca community, I would assume that a lot of people would have an open mind about spirits, no?

Sam Believ: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I think it’s a enough of a stretch where people accept. What I’m s- what I’m trying to… normally I focus on like science, healing brain- Okay … mental health. So it’s like I’m trying to get something practically useful from it to people

Denny Goler: so like- so let me conne- let me connect it to something practical and useful.

Okay. To my mind, this way that we’re defining science currently, it just happens to be an artifact of the times that we’re in. It is not the ultimate way of doing science. To me, a science of a mature species, capital S science, is the enterprise of understanding Full stop. Which means you can investigate what, what is available to understand about the world through the modality of inner observation, combine it with external tools, combine it with whatever.

Those are modalities. Currently, we value external modalities more than others because they give us some solidification of information that seems to be interpersonal. So it’s not just my impression, but it’s also something we can part- share with other individuals. But for example, I absolutely see meditation as the science of the inner world, because in science we observe what we’re trying to study closely.

We’re trying to find patterns, we’re trying to find ways to communicate these patterns across individuals and see if they’re replicable, and then we wanna see if we can actually do something with it, right? Meditation is exactly this. You study your inner space of perception very closely for hours and hours every day, and you share that information.

Others can replicate that experiment, and by the way, this is corroborated by a lot of actual data and observation. So if you guys are not familiar, then Richie Davidson, just look it up, has been doing studies with functional MRI in people, m- long-term meditators for decades, and he found without a shadow of a doubt that their brains are different, and we can show this, right?

And they can do things that other peoples can’t. They can turn off their d- default mode network on command, just like you moving your hand. That’s an ability that is acquired over time. So just like you said, in order to first even to make it possible at all, you have to first accept that there’s something there, and then you have to investigate it, right?

So to me, science, we just need to expand the bubble of what we call science. We, we– it doesn’t mean we have to get lost in nonsense and craziness. I really love a Terence McKenna quote that says we can criticize the enterprise of science, but no one is at liberty to abandon common sense.” Fully agree.

So we can absolutely follow common sense, but we can also allow for certain kinds of ideas that on the surface might look a little wacky in the beginning, but if we look at the details, and if you look at the seriousness of the and the caliber of certain kind of people that start to accepting them, then all of a sudden it doesn’t sound that crazy.

Ultimately, I agree with you fully that unless we deliver something that you can actually do something with, it will always remain this floating idea. I agree with that. A lot of people think that maybe I– and I am answering your question by the way. I’m I’m getting there. A lot of people think that I walked around a l- by a laser one day while on DMT and noticed it.

No. I was directly investigating how I can potentially discern whether the DMT space is real or just imaginary. And after years of thinking about this, of reading scientific papers and trying all kinds of things, and everything failed, eventually I cracked one thing. Yeah, it’s not the, like it’s not yet, the full thing, but I found something that works.

Okay we’re not at liberty to ignore this. One of the biggest contentions that people had for a long time about these, this question of whether the, what we see on psychedelics is real or not was sure, sometimes people see things that are kinda similar, but it can also be archetypes, or there’s always this other thing that people say, right?

It’s like we don’t know. It doesn’t really mean anything.” Okay. What people said is can you f- can you find something that everybody would agree on?” Here it is. I found it. There’s something that everybody can agree on. So then now people have different contentions. They’re like, “Yeah, but this and but that.”

Okay. Well- Fine, but let’s start with the fact that we delivered on something, right? Now let’s together walk step by step what is the most rational explanation of what that is. I think I kinda know where this is going, but I’m open for revision. And ultimately, I think that what this what would be the, this thing that you’re asking about, which is what is this practical thing, it’s kinda the same question as asking when quantum physics was discovered.

Nobody ever thought it would be applicable to our lives. People thought it would just always be this kind of like theoretical thing. Within a decade, it changed the world because we all of a sudden could create transistors and computers only by knowing things about quantum physics. We couldn’t do it before.

Now, will it follow a similar trajectory? Of course, I don’t know. But I do know that if something is true, we want to know it for the, just by the fact that it is true. So to me, that alone encapsulates value. Beyond that, I can tell you that those are already an- anecdotal, but it definitely does something for people.

So y- I’m not, I’ve never ran a, a, a real study in which we really kinda studied people over time and saw how they react. We haven’t done that. But I can tell you from experience that it solidifies the reality that there’s more than this in ways that it’s very hard to deliver otherwise.

People are convinced of a lot when they go through Ayahuasca, and it’s very impactful for them. I had a pretty spiritually oriented m- minded person. The woman came and, she saw the laser, and she exclaimed, “I knew it,” when she saw it. And then later she told me that in that moment she realized she never believed herself.

So like she acted as if she knows all of these things, but then when she saw it, she was like, “I knew it,” but then she realized she didn’t believe herself. So it soli- it makes it more real for people. Now I think that can be considered valuable, but I don’t have a straightforward answer about ’cause I don’t really know, over time what this will amount to. I’m operating much more from like a scientific perspective, which is if something is real about the world, we want to know about it so we can understand how we can orient ourselves towards it. That’s my attitude towards that.

Sam Believ: I think it is valuable. Let’s say someone Through meditation, spirituality, or through psychedelics discovers that l- yeah, after we die, we don’t actually just rot and disappear. We actually have afterlife, and there’s some meaning behind all this, right? Personally, for me, that was the biggest change in my mindset in a way that I used to believe, you live, you die, and that’s it, and it’s depressive, right?

But if you think about it now, you know you die, and then something else. It’s not the end. So proving and having more proof that, yes, this is actually the case is good for you personally because I think it’s a more helpful set of beliefs than just believing that nothing happens. So I think there is definitely value in that.

But you mentioned computers, and you mentioned doing science, and I’m a big believer. Obviously, computers, the way they exist now is thanks to some scientists tripping on LSD some time ago. And now my kids are trying to get in. Give me one second. That’s

Denny Goler: o- of course. No problem.

Sam Believ: Hi, baby girl ¿Qué pasó? Estoy grabando. Venga, vamos a un pódcast. Vamos a mostrar la niña en un pódcast

Denny Goler: Ruby

Sam Believ: Here’s my daughter Oh,

Denny Goler: come here baby. Oh, hi. What’s her name?

Sam Believ: Alona.

Denny Goler: Alona. This is Eden. Say hi, Eden.

Sam Believ: And here’s a baby too.

Denny Goler: How old is Alona?

Sam Believ: She’s a year and a half.

Denny Goler: Oh, wow. So cute. This is Eden.

She’s just six months.

Sam Believ: Ciao, bye baby.

Denny Goler: Alona. Alona is a ve- It’s actually a very Russian name.

Sam Believ: Yeah. My, my wife is Colombian, but he, she decided to give her a Russian name ’cause she read a Russian book. And she- I’m the Russian speaker, but she’s the one that came up with the name.

Denny Goler: Really? Sh- so her middle name is Lena, but it’s

Sam Believ: Cool.

Denny Goler: Yeah.

Sam Believ: So it’s it’s a bit unusual for the podcast, but with basically for those watching on a video, we just had a baby show off. So if you’re not watching on the video, check it out on YouTube, Ayahuasca Podcast. It’s very cute. But yeah, going back to the topic. So science, LSD, obviously people that came up with the idea of computers, right?

They were tripping. The person that came up with the idea of DNA and double helix also was tripping. Yep. So it’s like I have this belief, and I’ve been talking about it for a long time, that the moment we stop studying psychedelics and the moment we start studying on psychedelics, this is where we really can blow through.

Of course they’re probably not gonna get us out of the simulation, but I think we can probably achieve a lot. What do you think about that and using psychedelics for science?

Denny Goler: I think it- it’s a good, it’s a good start, but then eventually we would want to learn how to instantiate these functions in ourselves, or k- arrive na- naturally is the wrong word, but just arrive at them more with the architecture of our own brains.

Or help, maybe modify our brains in the proper way so we can just kinda induce that function. So I think the … Because you want things to be more integrated versus a thing that you have to partake from the external world. But I absolutely think you’re correct. So there’s … M- one of my theories about what’s going on is that there’s another continuum to light, aside from frequency, that we don’t quite understand.

It’s like another direction in light that you can see, and that’s maybe what’s happening when we’re on DMT, that we can all of a sudden see behind the corner, so to speak, inside the light in such a way that gives us more information. And maybe there’s a lot of other things that we need to try this way.

So I would absolutely agree with it. But I also think that- Well- … eventually we’ll be able to do it ourselves.

Sam Believ: It’s kinda DMT is natural, right? There’s probably a way for us to- get more of it, and then in our dreams how much of a role it already plays in our thinking?

It’s,

Denny Goler: How much role of what, sorry?

Sam Believ: How much of a role does DMT al- already play in our thinking? You know- I don’t- And also endocannabinoids, and just the fact that, we are, we’re basically just a neurochemical machine. We’re… All of our brain is- Yeah … just a soup of neurotransmitters, right?

Denny Goler: The reason I said that I don’t like the word natural because it’s very confusing and it- it’s also not indicative of anything. ‘Cause anything that exists is natural, including plastic and oil and all of these things that we criticize ourselves doing, right? It- it’s more like, does it create a more harmonious environment, external and internal, over time, or does it…

is it some kind of a jolting disruptor? That’s a good distinction. So there’s ways in which life unfold that is more harmonious, and ways in which life like just kinda, just takes everything, almost like cancer, right? Yeah. In that regard, I think that, yeah, the, even though DMT is also produced in the body, maybe there is a certain quantity that your body simply can’t make.

Maybe, I don’t know. It’s almost like, just like you said, when somebody imagined, the 100-me- meter dash and when it comes to extreme sports it’s even more pronounced, like the achievements just kinda keep growing when the second somebody does it. But at no point will anybody ever be able to jump to the moon.

You see what I’m saying? For that you will need a rocket, ’cause it’s just the laws of physics all of a sudden, there’s a limit. So maybe it’s something like this. Maybe there is a certain amount we can induce ourselves, beyond which you have to go through actual modifications. Maybe not. I’m not sure.

But the real answers will come only if we try. And that’s something that somebody has to do, obviously.

Sam Believ: Okay. Before we wrap up, just one last question I cannot finish without asking you, but let’s talk about entities, right? Who is running the simulation? Wh- and why did the frog teach you how to play guitar?

Denny Goler: I think the guitar bit was b- to anybody who doesn’t know, basically I had a frog dude that appeared for me, and then he showed me how to play some chords, w- which I didn’t know how to do. So he… I think it was a communication. He was basically saying, “I’m real ’cause you don’t know how to do this.”

There’s no way you’re getting this information from your im- imagination ’cause you have no idea how to do this. And who’s com- who’s controlling the simulation? So this layer, and again this is where now that I know what flavor your podcast is of, so this is gonna sound super out there, but I guess bear with me everybody.

According to my so far every all the information that I’ve collected from both my experiences and what I’ve heard other people say but mostly relies on kinda like my direct observation in there. These insectoids that a lot of people meet, they seem to be the master race that, that literally executes the physical environment.

So they are the simulators. And then there’s other species, but they are… They’re either not as prominent or they belong to a different level of operation of the simulation. So they’re not responsible for executing the physical space. So the, the insectoids seem to be the, what you would call the simulators, but what they’re simulating is just the initial conditions.

So they’re not really… It’s more, it… They’re more responsible for error correction than anything else ’cause it’s all automated, but they’re the ones that tending to the layer that we’re in.

Sam Believ: Okay. Yeah, we definitely went far this time, but it’s- Yeah … it’s cool. I think it’s also there’s a merit in f- learning new things and allowing yourself to question reality. Because even for people that only view Ayahuasca as a tool for healing, eventually you’re gonna get there. If you just keep drinking Ayahuasca, you’re gonna come to this exploration of reality, entities, s- like deep deeps first first person spirituality in a way where you yourself experience that.

So thank you so- Have you

Denny Goler: met a lot of entities, if you don’t mind me asking?

Sam Believ: Sorry m- my coughing. So when you mentioned the, the frog dude teaching how to play guitar as in to show you like, “Look, I’m real,” like there’s no way you could have known it. It rem- it reminded me once I had an experience in which I was interacting with an entity which was like this Egyptian god with a crocodile head.

And I, I didn’t really know much about it before. I never even know its name. I didn’t… Like I, I might have seen a picture somewhere. That’s about it. And it was teaching me something and it was kinda telling me it came exactly for a ceremony after we had a big avalanche across the creek. Like there was a m- mud mass passed right by us and we were all safe.

It’s a once every 300 years event, but we’re still relatively far away from it, but it did scare me. And then when I was looking up that entity next day on internet, it said that it is an entity Egyptians used to protect against natural elements, specifically rivers. He was a god of rivers.

And I was like, that makes a lot of sense and there’s no way I could have known it.” And thus it proved for me that there is this cloud in which if information is placed we can access it later. I don’t know how well- Is

Denny Goler: it not the being that weighs, that does the, decides whether your soul is gonna be eaten or something like that, or continue to the next one or something like that?

I thought it was like the one with the judgment.

Sam Believ: No, I’m not sure. For as far as I know it’s the one that Egyptians pray to when they, when the Nile flooded too much or n- not flooded enough. That’s… and it was, like a god of protection against rivers. So for me it was very timely.

Which one does the judgment? Is it the one with the- I

Denny Goler: think he also has a crocodile head. That’s what I thought.

Sam Believ: Okay.

Denny Goler: We can, Basically he’s the one that kind of stands with this infinite… He’s the ultimate judge and then if you haven’t passed the test then he eats you. He eats your soul.

Sam Believ: Egyptian god that makes a judgment.

Denny Goler: Egyptian god. Yeah.

Sam Believ: Let me ask the internet. Anubis. Anubis, yeah. No, I think Anubis has the dog’s head.

Denny Goler: So then if you ju- wait. Croc-

Sam Believ: Jamie, look it up. I need a Jamie.

Denny Goler: It has a-

Sam Believ: Yeah, it’s like a dog. A-

Denny Goler: Like a dog? Yeah. Okay. I was convinced there was a crocodile involved. No, it’s a crocodile.

Sam Believ: Is it?

Denny Goler: Yep.

Sam Believ: Okay. My AI begs to differ, but let’s research it After we finish the episode.

Denny Goler: You’re in a different timeline where it is a dog.

Sam Believ: Yeah. We’re in a parallel realities, right?

Denny Goler: Yeah.

Sam Believ: It’s… i’m an entity for you, and you’re an entity for me.

Denny Goler: That’s beautiful.

Sam Believ: Cool. Danny, thank you so much for this very interesting episode.

Definitely made me wanna experiment a lot, and I definitely need to get some lasers

Denny Goler: I will send you, I will send you exactly the, the kind that you need to get. It’s very simple.

Sam Believ: Sounds good. And I appreciate your brother … where can people find more about your work?

Where can they follow you?

Denny Goler: All my links are on dannygoler.com, so D-A-N-N-Y-G-O-L-E-R.com. And my main thing is my YouTube channel, so it’s Dango Thoughts on YouTube. D-A-N-G-O Thoughts.

Sam Believ: Beautiful. Thank you so

Denny Goler: much. Oh, and one final thing I will mention, I don’t know when this is gonna air, but we… I have start, I have started finally…

I’m gonna do a shameless plug. I have finally started a series of retreats which we’ll only do maybe two or three a year. One is coming up now. If I’m not mistaken, we might be already full for this one. But if anybody’s interested, they can go to corretreat.com, which is just C-O-R retreat.com, and you can find out more about it.

Sam Believ: Perfect. Guys, you were listening to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, we are the host, Sam Believ, and I will see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you’d like to support us and Psychedelic Renaissance at large, please follow us and leave us a wherever it is you’re listening.

Share this episode with someone who will benefit from this information. Nothing in this podcast is intended as medical advice, and it is for educational and entertainment purposes only. This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat. At LaWayra, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity.

LaWayra, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you