In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with Natasja Pelgrom, a thought leader in personal growth and psychedelic transformation, founder of Awaken the Medicine Within, and host of the Awaken Podcast.
We touch upon topics including:
Natasja’s journey with psychedelics (1:51-10:29)
Entrepreneurship in the psychedelic space (10:58-15:50)
Leadership and psychedelics (17:18-24:13)
Authenticity as a core value (24:48-29:17)
Space-holding techniques (30:13-36:50)
If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats, go to http://www.lawayra.com.
Find more about Natasja at natasjapelgrom.com or through Awaken the Medicine Within.
Transcript
Sam Believ (00:03)
Hi guys, welcome to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, with you the host Sam Believ. Today I’m having a conversation with Natasha Pelgrom. Natasha is a thought leader and guide in field of personal growth and psychedelic assisted transformation. She’s a trainer, facilitator, assistant, visionary leader. ⁓ She runs Awaken the Medicine within retreats, ⁓ where she supports people with psycho-spiritual approaches. She’s also a mentor and a host of Awaken Podcast.
Sam Believ (00:34)
Natasha, welcome to the show.
Natasja Pelgrom (00:36)
Thank you so much for having me, Sam, and greetings from Amsterdam, the land of water. And I’m literally hovering above water right now. So if you could see it, yeah, this is where I’m at.
Sam Believ (00:49)
Beautiful, are you on a boat?
Natasja Pelgrom (00:51)
No, but actually a lot of buildings are built really on almost on water and next to water. especially in Amsterdam, even newer buildings. yes. Yeah.
Sam Believ (00:56)
the news.
Sam Believ (01:03)
Interesting a lot a lot of people don’t know that about me, but my previous life before I was I was ⁓ a Marine mechanical engineer and I actually worked for a Dutch company for almost three years in offshore wind sector And I would I was so down was the second most visited city for me after Riga, which is ⁓ my own city of course now a change now I’m a metagene guy, but Yeah, there’s a lot that connects me to Holland and Amsterdam and its culture. So it’s and obviously
Sam Believ (01:33)
Holland is really known for its, you know, there’s a lot of medicine stuff going on there. So before we talk about that, ⁓ tell us about a little bit about yourself, your history ⁓ and ⁓ how did you end up working with Platt Medicines?
Natasja Pelgrom (01:51)
Yes, well, I always want to go back to the story of the 14 year old lady who was in her teenage years growing up in Amsterdam because I have a lot to thank her curiosity and rebel rebelness at the time was in the ⁓ 90s and mushrooms were illegal. Now we have, of course, decriminalized same illegal truffles containing psilocybin. But at the time,
Natasja Pelgrom (02:19)
actual mushrooms were legal in the Netherlands. ⁓ And I want to share that because my very first experience with psychedelics was at that age, you know, and for a lot of people, they asked me even in the past, wow, 14, your parents, where were they? ⁓ Actually, I want to put a disclaimer in here. I’m not saying every 14 year old should do it, ⁓ but my mother did know about it.
Natasja Pelgrom (02:47)
My mother was aware of what I was doing and about where I was in my curiosity with it. ⁓ So yes, I want to honor her because that experience answered questions that I didn’t know that I was holding, interesting enough. And it wasn’t with the framing of a set and setting and intentionality and everything we know now about facilitation and how we want to maybe meet these molecules and these teaching agents.
Natasja Pelgrom (03:16)
So, but something did get catalyzed back then and it set me on a trajectory of curiosity and wanting to understand a lot about why do people behave and become the way they are in relationship to their wounding or maybe trauma. That was one trajectory that catapulted me from that moment onwards. And another one was a form of, for lack of a better word, more of a spiritual awakening where
Natasja Pelgrom (03:43)
the interconnectedness of all of life I had felt since I can remember. And there was a confirmation into this relationship to something bigger than my egoic structure. And those two things actually catapulted me onto a path of learning, of growing, of going into the realm of shamanism, of Buddhism, Zen Buddhism, of personal development, of therapy.
Natasja Pelgrom (04:12)
for a small amount of time, even started learning psychology, children’s psychology. Very soon I figured that’s not where I want to go. So I’ve dabbled in many things to find answers, sometimes even to find questions and not necessarily answers. So that’s one trajectory. And the other one is I studied arts, so photography and design.
Natasja Pelgrom (04:40)
So I fueled a lot of my feelings around interconnectedness and creativity from coming actually from both ways. And then I also have a third component into me is curious about being autonomous, independent. So I became very quickly also a very entrepreneurial because that was buying back my own time.
Natasja Pelgrom (05:05)
And I had, fast forward in my 20s, I’ve had multiple companies in the fashion industry, hospitality industry, events industry. So at 29, I was holding a concept bar and club in Amsterdam ⁓ in the queer scene with rising talent and it was just an amazing experience, amazing place.
Natasja Pelgrom (05:30)
in 2012, which was a real turnaround where I decided that it was beautiful what I was providing, but my soul wasn’t happy. There was a deeper longing for to connect to that spiritual, that interconnectedness, that place of source. And I felt that was that part of me that was more in the closet. It was hidden. I felt I needed to protect it. felt…
Natasja Pelgrom (05:59)
all these things and that’s not where I wanted to be with my life. If I would look forward 10 years ahead, I had a longing to be fully owning all of my parts. So I literally sold that business, gave in the key, bless you. I see you’re sneezing. ⁓ Gave in the key. ⁓ Yeah, sorry, but I just saw it. I cannot not say bless you. ⁓
Sam Believ (06:18)
I muted the microphone but you gave me away.
Natasja Pelgrom (06:26)
So I gave in the keys and I shifted my life 100%, my relationship that I had at the time with my partner and so many things changed. And I literally started by sitting in my living room and in meditation. And I remember just sending out messages to people, hey, you want to sit with me.
Natasja Pelgrom (06:49)
That sitting created space and silence. And this is where a lot of started unfolding. Now, if I look backwards, because I already had a path of curiosity and learning and being a lifelong learner, I did develop skills over time as I was also being an entrepreneur. Those two things were always accompanying each other. ⁓ So at the time that I really dropped the…
Natasja Pelgrom (07:17)
egoic structures and saying, you know, want a validation of the brick and mortar as an entrepreneur going back into more meaning making for myself. I did have a certain skill sets that I had cultivated where I could just not be with. So it became very quickly. I launched my coaching practice and started facilitating workshops and even small one day retreat experiences.
Natasja Pelgrom (07:43)
And this is how plant medicines and psychedelics came onto my path as from ⁓ out of my personal development work and recreational experiences, because I have a lot to think about my recreational experiences as well. A lot of learning and a lot of gifts were in those moments, you know, as well, especially in community and in circle, even if it wasn’t that intentional at the time.
Natasja Pelgrom (08:11)
So yeah, and this is how that came on my path. And actually the compound that really was a very big teaching compound for me and still is, was ⁓ 5MAO DMT, which at the beginning when I started working with this compound and with its teacher and facilitator that taught me a lot at that time.
Natasja Pelgrom (08:36)
was with Bufa alvarius 5MAO DMT and then later in years, it became the synthesized version working with that. But because psilocybin and truffles with psilocybin in the Netherlands have always been part of my life, that actually also was a molecule and a teacher that I also worked with. And for those of you who might remember Synthesis Institute in 2018,
Natasja Pelgrom (09:05)
I was one of the founding members and retreat director there and supporting hundreds of people with an amazing team of people. then very soon I actually left and continued my own path. But that also catapulted the relationship with psilocybin in a much deeper way than I had done before, because it’s a numbers game. I was able to facilitate and support a lot more people through that container.
Natasja Pelgrom (09:34)
That’s a little bit fast forward ⁓ and 2017 started Awakened in Medicine Within with 5MAO DMT only and with a five day program really focusing on developing more of a methodology with integration elements with it. That was a need that I was seeing. now we are now in as we were recording 2024, we’ve had many changes in our field, amazing changes, amazing research has come out.
Natasja Pelgrom (10:03)
anybody stepping into the bureaucracy of the world and the systems that we’re in with these compounds and trying to bring change into the world. I applaud anybody that is willing to put themselves out there as a pioneer because you are a pioneer in that sense. So yeah, now we fast forward. I’m focusing more on practitioners and mentoring individuals. So yeah, that’s a bit my journey so far. A quick run through. ⁓
Sam Believ (10:29)
⁓ Thank you for sharing it’s it’s a long journey it seems and you started early and But as it is with the medicines, you know, it kind of all falls together and Things you learn ⁓ and you don’t know why you’re learning them eventually come handy when you’re starting with the work and it kind of all all comes together and makes a lot of sense so you mentioned, know being an entrepreneur before starting ⁓ working with the medicines and ⁓
Sam Believ (10:58)
I know you like to talk a lot about leadership. let’s talk a little bit about entrepreneurship and in the psychedelic space, you know, what have you observed? And obviously you, you train leaders. What, what issues do you notice? What, what advice is, can you give to somebody who is in that role?
Natasja Pelgrom (11:19)
Yeah, two questions in one, so I’ll try to remember both as I go into them. You know, there has been a very big, big shift. I believe, you know, when you facilitate something for someone, I think everybody can call themselves, you know, when you provide a service.
Natasja Pelgrom (11:45)
in a broader sense of the word, and let’s take psychedelics out there for a moment. You are an entrepreneur because I hope everybody pays their taxes. That supports the environment that you’re living in and the privilege that you’re in in what we’re receiving. So that means that you’re always an entrepreneur, right? And the challenges are sometimes is that we are very well-intentioned, and even with myself, is that
Natasja Pelgrom (12:12)
the world that we live in, need to pay our rent, we need to have insurances, psychedelic space. One of the biggest challenges is in terms of insurances is a very big challenge. In terms of payment systems is a very big challenge. So you need to inform yourself on so many levels. And probably the challenge
Natasja Pelgrom (12:38)
that compared to maybe another solopreneur would have versus a psychedelic entrepreneur would have is that you have to really understand the legal frameworks and how many. And I’m not even talking about is it legal to serve a compound or a molecule on the land that you’re in. That’s one for sure and how to navigate that system.
Natasja Pelgrom (13:05)
But when things go wrong, when there are risks, how do you support yourself? How do you support if you work with an assistant, if you work with a team, what is their responsibility? How can you be responsible? Like there is a lot of complexity and you have to navigate it from a place of entrepreneurial understanding, not just are you trained by the right framework or the quote unquote, right?
Natasja Pelgrom (13:32)
or by the right cosmology, or you have to almost step in with multiple hats in navigating quite a complex system sometimes. so when I started, I have to say that I didn’t have a lot of peer-to-peer support that I could talk to or really understand. There was a lot, because a lot of the people that were serving compounds in
Natasja Pelgrom (14:03)
weren’t maybe seeing it from a full responsibility with even screening or integration. So this was a decade ago. This was just a different time and space. So from my understanding, the challenges there was finding peer to peer support in getting yourself educated in the specific ways, right? Now, even coming in with
Natasja Pelgrom (14:30)
When you’re a solopreneur, or you’re going into it as a limited, these are very different legal structures in each country. Now I can speak more about the Netherlands and Portugal, because that’s a little bit more of the grounds that I navigate in than any other country. So I could speak a bit more into that. But even the way you would serve, and everybody thinks, ⁓ Netherlands, it’s legal. Portugal, it’s legal.
Natasja Pelgrom (14:56)
Not really. There is a lot of gray that you have to understand how you’re serving it, how people talk about it, how you navigate it with your team, how the clients are even receiving it. Officially, for example, in the Netherlands, ⁓ it is not legal to prepare the compounds or the plant medicines. The client needs to prepare it themselves. Now, I know for sure
Natasja Pelgrom (15:24)
that a lot of people that are truffles containing psilocybin in the Netherlands don’t even know about that. So there is an entrepreneurial responsibility which can be very challenging. So this maybe answers a bit of the challenges. Then another part of challenges is knowing how ⁓ taxing works, taxation, you’re pricing your retreats.
Natasja Pelgrom (15:50)
how you’re communicating taxes, not taxes, and all of that. That’s another part. it isn’t just about going in and being trained with a therapeutic framework. It’s much broader than that in the education that is needed. So yeah, and there was another question you asked me. So I wanted to speak about the challenges first and going a little bit into that. What was the other question, Sam? Help me out.
Sam Believ (16:20)
Leadership was the second question which kind of connects to the entrepreneurship as well. Yeah, what I was kind of, yeah, it’s good that you talk about, a lot of people that let’s say want to get into psychedelic space and they want to take courses and maybe facilitate, not many of them think about the business side of things. And at our retreat, we, like my team is like 30 plus people now, so no longer solopreneur and it’s… ⁓
Sam Believ (16:48)
You don’t expect that when you just start doing a ceremony in your backyard. You don’t expect that You’re gonna end up with a big team and you need to now create structures and but I’m not gonna bore bore the audience with that ⁓ Just If you are getting into it ⁓ think plan plan few steps ahead So let’s talk about leadership because you you like to focus on that you you you train you use psychedelics to ⁓
Sam Believ (17:18)
to train people in leadership, is that correct?
Natasja Pelgrom (17:22)
Yeah, so I like to, I’m just gonna share a little bit of a nuance of a word and not to correct you, Sam, so that’s not how I mean it. But how I approach it is a cooperation. So in terms of using psychedelics, yes, we use psychedelics, but there is an understanding in terms of the cooperation and how we can actually help become better leaders, right? So.
Natasja Pelgrom (17:50)
I believe that everybody has the capacity and is responsible and is a leader. I think we need to debunk and maybe reframe and sometimes even get a new relationship with certain words and certain terminologies. So leadership is very much seen from an old structure top to bottom. You know, it’s a authoritarian way of looking at it. That’s our old system that we are in.
Natasja Pelgrom (18:18)
And this old system is not working anymore. This old system is not where we need to be. But just by seeing how the outdated and traditional way of looking is hierarchical, authoritarian, and directive. That’s what we normally associate even with the word leadership. Now, ⁓ what we want to come into is the kind of place where leadership becomes transformational leadership. And this is really what we need today.
Natasja Pelgrom (18:48)
right, where it’s collaborative empowerment, where we cultivate emotional intelligence, where we even maybe from a term of servant leadership and servant leadership is those that might be more connected towards earth based traditions where we are in service of something bigger or in service of the cooperation with plant medicines or the consciousness in this way, right? Another part of transformational leadership would be adaptability, systems thinking.
Natasja Pelgrom (19:16)
And then of course, where we want to go into is inclusivity and diversity in leadership. Right? So all of these aspects in a way, what they do is leadership going from the outdated system to reclaiming the words and saying, okay, yes, you know, we need to transform this. And this is where what I’ve seen over the last decade is what’s happens is naturally certain
Natasja Pelgrom (19:45)
characteristics, certain things are cultivated. But if we don’t see certain frameworks attached to it or certain qualities that we can go deeper into, they just become an experience, right? So for example, self-leadership in this specific context is that will help you to give the
Natasja Pelgrom (20:10)
capacity to navigate, oversee, and make decisions really for yourself from a place of clarity, purpose, and then of course the magic word, which is a big buzzword, is authenticity. ⁓ And this really goes into where you can have quote unquote control over your values, your aspirations, and in the end, of course, ultimately life. So this is where leadership really comes in. Now,
Natasja Pelgrom (20:37)
What I love to do with clients and how to work with it is to really focus on, in the format that you work with, in cooperation with these plant allies or molecules, to go into this place of maybe re-evaluating your values. Yes, there of course, there’s a massive amount of healing that happens from ancestral intergenerational healing, inner child work healing.
Natasja Pelgrom (21:05)
healing from wounding, for example, an accident, an incident, physical healing, psychosomatic healing, spiritual healing, relational healing, like all of this is coexisting in the process. But ultimately, what I believe is to come into a sense of harmony with who you are.
Natasja Pelgrom (21:32)
and creating that kind of container and creating, let’s say, these kind of pillars of understanding of cultivating leadership. For me, my personal passion is that the cooperation with it, together with a deeper understanding, becomes a symbiosis and becomes a breeding ground.
Natasja Pelgrom (21:56)
without too much interference. So I just want to say that it’s not that I’m interfering in people’s process and saying, now think of your values and your leadership skills. That’s not how we’re holding a container of work. But when you do work with certain frameworks and people help to integrate that and ask the right questions, maybe where they understand where they’re out of values,
Natasja Pelgrom (22:22)
or where they’re out of their own integrity or where they’re out of maybe their authenticity, that can help them reframe that and recultivate those relationships. So I believe that everything at the end of the day is really about cultivating self-awareness. And that’s the cornerstone of, of course, leadership in any shape or form. And this is what these amazing allies do with our system, with our brains, with…
Sam Believ (22:29)
helps.
Natasja Pelgrom (22:49)
our guts, with our awareness, with the interrelationship with each other. It’s creating awareness. And then there is also another part, and especially with psilocybin, which is a compound that I love so much, is also about teaching you about illusion, about your own illusions. Sometimes it will give you illusion in the experience in many shapes or forms, which with the right kind of understanding of what is taking place. And then again,
Sam Believ (23:02)
So.
Sam Believ (23:14)
the point.
Natasja Pelgrom (23:19)
⁓ non-directive, but with open questions, people can really come back into their sovereignty and discernment and autonomy with themselves, which is a lot when we go through challenges and trauma, are things that are of course taken or dropped or unaware, and it’s a matter of reawakening those processes. this is where I feel like my passion is really in terms of leadership and stepping in.
Natasja Pelgrom (23:47)
And at the same time, hoping that you plant a seed by the container that you create or the method that you create, that that leadership eventually goes into the more servant leadership, which is to me the most, the highest form of leadership. And that is where, yes, you’re working on self, but simultaneously you’re also contributing to we.
Natasja Pelgrom (24:13)
which I like to also bring in the word stewardship. And for those of you who new to my work, stewardship is something that I’m really passionate about and also bringing that into the world with the word leadership, which is the ultimate form going from leadership towards stewardship in the end. So I hope this answers your question, Sam.
Sam Believ (24:36)
Mm-hmm slightly on a different topic, but still similar enough I found you from a video on Instagram where you’re talking about authenticity as the highest form of vibration and So That’s why I reached out to you because I really like that and kind of I’m currently now Going through this process when I’m working a lot on that specifically as in ⁓ You mentioned mindfulness and being you know self
Natasja Pelgrom (24:48)
Mm, yeah.
Sam Believ (25:05)
being able to observe yourself, of noticing the patterns where maybe there’s some being inauthentic or maybe somewhat exaggerating things or avoiding saying certain things. ⁓ and you say, know, authenticity is the highest form of vibration. Obviously, I think also authenticity is a part of that kind of leadership that you’re describing also. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Natasja Pelgrom (25:27)
Yeah, absolutely. think, you know, I say in that reel, of course, it’s a little sound bite. ⁓ It’s always a bit tricky, you know, when you have little reels with sound bites. But and I say frequency because I feel that people that, you know, in our ecosystem of the psychedelic and plant medicine space, we understand that because when you stepped into that space, often you see you see the energetic vibration of things of thought forms, right, of beliefs even.
Natasja Pelgrom (25:56)
even the influence of what someone has eaten before. Or the vibration of a plant, you know, this is where a lot of traditions of course have the vibration in the singing with the plant. So this is why I say the frequency, but it’s the, there was a research on the measuring tool of authenticity, gratitude and love, and I speak into that real about that. And authenticity is,
Natasja Pelgrom (26:22)
You know, it’s where you really build a genuine relationship with other people. And this is where it gets really interesting because we are so attuned through empathic relationship by micro expressions of each other, right? So in our micro expressions, we read, we sense, feel, you know when someone is authentically speaking from an embodied place,
Natasja Pelgrom (26:50)
and you can know, and sometimes it’s a feeling sense when something is out of tune in that, right? So, well, in authenticity, one of the qualities, and there is research that has been done on authentic leadership, I think the name is Bill George, there is a book, there’s actually a book called Authentic Leadership. So if you’re interested in this, I would definitely dive into that. And it’s really about, you know, being in a place of,
Natasja Pelgrom (27:18)
What does it mean to be an authentic leader, which is about cultivating self-awareness? Well, I spoke about that psychedelics, plant medicine, and theogens do that for sure, right? Or help you in that direction. Transparency is a quality that is in there, which is really important. And then there needs to be a symbiosis that you act according to your values. So, and this creates a deep connection and deep relational space of trust with other people’s.
Natasja Pelgrom (27:47)
So when these things are all together in one, there is a felt sense. And this is when people feel genuine relationship and actually can be inspired. And this is also where a place of true openness and vulnerability is at. Now, I’ve witnessed a lot of people in a facilitation space and even beyond psychedelic space, believe me, being in a very open and vulnerable place is not oversharing your traumas.
Natasja Pelgrom (28:17)
So there is a nuance into that as well, right? That does not have to mean that it’s authentic in that moment. So in the context of maybe specifically more around space holding, authenticity needs to be a fundamentally foundational block because this actually creates a sense of safety for the participants.
Natasja Pelgrom (28:47)
So space holding in a practice is really creating, course, a non-judgmental place, being supportive for people to express themselves, being able to navigate so they can navigate complex emotions, maybe even a spiritual process in that. So spaceholders, they have to cultivate this really critical relationship with their own authenticity to be able to show up in that way.
Natasja Pelgrom (29:17)
then we make it even more simplified, of course. How do you do that is to really understand your values and walk them and then of course have not only a supervision in that and to understand your own shadow and do deeper shadow work. And I don’t mean just with being your own solo work with plant allies or psychedelics, but also have people from other disciplines be a mirror to you in that sense.
Natasja Pelgrom (29:45)
There is a lot that aligns with being in a place of authenticity or what authentic relational space is or authenticity in space holding in that sense.
Sam Believ (29:58)
Thank you for sharing. ⁓ So you mentioned holding space and you’ve already shared a little bit on that. Is there anything else you want to go deeper and then maybe talk to us a little bit about the course that you mentioned?
Natasja Pelgrom (30:13)
Yeah, ⁓ so holding space is, ⁓ I really love that word because it’s almost like there’s a magical component to it. ⁓ Why, what does it mean, holding space, right? But in its really core essence, it’s creating a state of awareness of non-judgment.
Natasja Pelgrom (30:42)
But there is a groundedness in self-knowledge that’s really important because that’s where, again, the meaningful, authentic relational space can really emerge for an individual that you’re holding space for, right? ⁓ And that non-judgmental is, it’s very, it’s complex in its nature because…
Natasja Pelgrom (31:08)
We can never be never completely without judgment, you know, but it’s where it hooks into is especially this word self-knowledge because you have to understand your own programming, your belief systems, your own wounding, how you relate to your wounding, what projection is, how projection works for you, what your blind spots might be. Are you surrounded with a team or peers?
Natasja Pelgrom (31:35)
that are different than you, that can mirror that in a way, you know? And then amidst all of this complexity of you, are you able to map out what is yours and what isn’t? So it means that you have an ability to be super steadfast in the discomfort and challenges that might be for you, for another person, and still be with your nervous system in a place
Natasja Pelgrom (32:03)
of relaxation that could feel that the environment is supported. And all of this is without using any language. It’s purely through a bodily embodied place of knowing. Of course, language comes in the preparation, language comes maybe in the group support, in how you prepare the group beforehand. So yes, language is very important. But let’s say in the magical component of holding space,
Natasja Pelgrom (32:30)
This is where it’s non-language, but it’s a bodily sensed felt awareness. So in this way, you become of course, very strong place of discernment. And this is where I bringing in a component that most people might not fully, because I think people that are interested in your podcast might know about space holding, maybe not new to them what I’m sharing, but it also involves of bringing in three things.
Natasja Pelgrom (33:01)
Understanding a rites, what it is to accompany a rite of passage. That’s one that is really important. Did you understand the complexity of birth and death in its metaphorical language and its transpersonal language? And of course, bringing into the second one, which is transformation or accompanied with healing or a process of alchemy, right? That’s also part of that. And then the third component is where
Natasja Pelgrom (33:30)
people are in a state of learning, right? Because the ultimate place where as a spaceholder, facilitator, or practitioner, your responsibility is to bring an individual to the best state that they can to be in a place of learning, which is accompanied with a quality of curiosity, right? And curiosity in this sense is the cornerstone where you can learn something new.
Natasja Pelgrom (33:58)
And you can step into complex, maybe metaphorical language or psychedelic navigation, which is a skill, you know, is a skill that needs to be cultivated over an X amount of time. And as guides, facilitators, that’s what you’re responsible for. You’re helping people skillfully navigating their own expanded states of consciousness to then deeper learn themselves, to then ultimately
Natasja Pelgrom (34:27)
create self-awareness. So there’s a lot of words around space holding, but I wanted to go a little bit deeper on what that means in my book. And then, yes, as a little plug, ⁓ because as this comes out, I’m just launching a five-week course online on the fundamentals of space holding, where we’re actually going to go deep into what are all of these elements. And I think when I already spoke about cultivating
Natasja Pelgrom (34:56)
non-judgmental space, a supportive space, active listening, what is interference, what is projection, what is counter projection, like all of these aspects. But one of the things I want to highlight is spiritual hygiene. ⁓ Because a lot of the more traditional ways of learning to work with an entheogenic setting or psychedelics or plant medicines do work with spiritual hygiene.
Sam Believ (35:13)
it.
Natasja Pelgrom (35:25)
But the more, let’s say, therapeutic approaches do not necessarily speak about spiritual hygiene. So I really wanted to bring in the aspects of, OK, what does it mean to actually navigate an expanded state of consciousness, support people with the space holding I just named, and what is the energetic component of that?
Natasja Pelgrom (35:51)
What is the metaphysical component of that to actually keep yourself safe and keep the environment as clean as you possibly can? Now, a lot of psychological understanding is number one, know your wounding because that’s like a magnet, it will attract. But also what is a more generic understanding and speaking into that. I think within the course, having a lot of Q &A kind of moments to really help people discern and come into understanding.
Sam Believ (35:52)
Thank
Natasja Pelgrom (36:21)
And then there are, of course, many terminologies and belief systems that maybe slightly speak into things slightly different. And that’s always, to me, the most exciting things is to see the pattern and what is the universal elements in all of them. And then we come to a form which I call a form of ultimate truth because that’s where they all intersect together. yeah, the fundamentals of space holding. So anybody that wants to join, can. There is a beautiful community.
Natasja Pelgrom (36:50)
offering for anybody listening. So just a little plug here.
Sam Believ (36:55)
Anything you want to add on the topic of spiritual hygiene because it’s a really really interesting term.
Natasja Pelgrom (37:03)
Yeah, absolutely. ⁓ well, there are so many things that we can go into, but it’s really about, you know, a few things is about maintaining your understanding, your emotional balance and how when it spills over what happens. ⁓ And also understanding the psychological integration of yourself.
Natasja Pelgrom (37:30)
how important that is for, let’s say, the spiritual hygiene, that they actually go hand in hand. But also things like really basic. A lot of my mentees actually come with questions around, how do I, what are entities? What are thought forms? ⁓ What are vampiric hooks? What are, how is the land responding to where I’m at?
Natasja Pelgrom (37:59)
I’ve seen these and these energetic forms in this ceremony, but not in that ceremony. In Mexico, I’ve seen this, but in the Netherlands, I see that the land. How does that work? So there is a lot of questions around, let’s see, the metaphysical process of skillfully navigating the Hispanic state of consciousness and going back all the way back to the basics of keeping yourself as
Natasja Pelgrom (38:27)
clean as possible by integrating your psychology, understanding that aspect of yourself. And then, of course, making sure that there isn’t any spiritual bypassing in that. So that’s where you’re going. And then what kind of rituals, which is really interesting because I’m always very fascinating how science and spirituality could speak sometimes about the same thing. So I did some research for one of my personal podcasts and also for a course
Natasja Pelgrom (38:56)
that’s called living in ceremony, around the research around rituals and what is happening neurologically to your brain and your system. ⁓ And sometimes the repetition of an action, not necessarily with a specific compound or with a specific mineral, but that repetition sets us up in a certain state of awareness and sets us up in a certain way of being.
Natasja Pelgrom (39:26)
that we’re a lot more capable of tapping into our subconscious even. So, and that’s of course our database of knowledge that you wanna go into. even with things like drumming, know, everybody that is listening here has experienced a drum. And of course, besides that being a massive impact for your experience in a ceremony, that does bring your brain into a theta state.
Natasja Pelgrom (39:56)
which then is also a way where we are in when we are, of course, in a deep meditative place, but that is also where, in a theta state, is also where we have more access to our subconscious awareness. So all of these practices that we do can be actually related back to our spiritual hygiene and can be related back to how does that impact. Now, the same thing goes with prayer.
Natasja Pelgrom (40:23)
where I just shared about repetition. Now there’s specific ways of praying that have more effect on neurological patterning and our way of being and therefore our environment than other ways. Now what’s the difference? So if you understand these ancient tools that are, it’s our birthright to pray, it’s our birthright to make fire, it’s our birthright to play a drum, you know.
Natasja Pelgrom (40:50)
if you copy in the cosmology without training in that, that’s a different thing. That’s appropriation, of course, but relating to our elements is our birthright. So if you are praying with and to water in a specific way, could be a form of spiritual hygiene. So it’s very interesting to actually almost see, dissect the pattern and come at it from not only a spiritual aspect or metaphysical transpersonal aspect that I’m
Natasja Pelgrom (41:20)
very interested in, also coming in it from a scientific aspect and then coming in also with a psychological aspect. So I’m always trying to actually bridge every single aspect as holistically as possible. So you would never see me, you know, in all my programs, if it’s online or in our retreat programs, I always make sure that we address all of these aspects with our questions and answers and how-tos.
Natasja Pelgrom (41:49)
to fully get as holistically as possible understanding of our experience. And this is what fascinates me most about psychedelics and plant medicines and in the entheogenic settings and all of that is we have a capacity to learn and cultivate so much creativity through these processes and really understand it’s a deep invitation to go into a holistic self. But that’s what gets me fired up, Sam. ⁓
Sam Believ (42:18)
You mentioned spiritual bypassing. That’s another topic that I really like. Can you share a little bit about that?
Natasja Pelgrom (42:25)
In what way?
Sam Believ (42:27)
Like what is it, how to avoid it.
Natasja Pelgrom (42:31)
Yeah, well, mean, ⁓ so I mean, so let’s go back into what it defines, right? So where we go into is spiritual beliefs, spiritual practices and spiritual life that really helps you to maybe not meet emotional pain or psychological challenges. So that’s in its simplest form, right? ⁓
Natasja Pelgrom (42:59)
I think it’s like anything, it is very complex because sometimes it serves someone to keep them safe. So I never want to use these terms lightly in a way that puts things off, right? Or creates, like I said, the word judgment.
Natasja Pelgrom (43:25)
right, because sometimes it really is there as a survival mechanism to be able to even function. ⁓ and there is a lot more new ones to it. ⁓ But sometimes what I’ve seen when it what happens when it’s toxic is when you dismiss someone’s boundaries or not allow others to express or share maybe painful or negative emotions or suggesting.
Natasja Pelgrom (43:54)
passivity when actually an action is required, or that everything happens for a reason and look at the bright side. We’ve all heard that. ⁓ Listen, I’ve said that. I’ve said that, like it ever happens for a reason. I remember 15, 20 years ago, I was very more embedded in the new age way of looking at spirituality. And if I look at myself today as myself back then,
Natasja Pelgrom (44:23)
there was some spiritual bypassing going on there, you know, absolutely. So I don’t think like I’m elevated in any shape or form, it’s just I’ve learned my own bypassing in that sense. But this is why I just shared about space holding and the importance to address all these different aspects of it, like the psychological to transpersonal, the energetics, know, the understanding, then of course,
Natasja Pelgrom (44:52)
also the scientific, really look at research as well. Why? Why is because you make sure that you look at yourself and the way you’re holding space and the way you’re facilitating, so you avoid bypassing. So you avoid all of these aspects. Because one of them, it’s really nice to be surrounded with people that speak our jargon.
Natasja Pelgrom (45:18)
You know, our little community, we’re a little embedded and we feel like we really belong and it feels so good to be in this circle together. But it can very quickly become a toxic thing where there is, it’s almost like for lack of a better word, incestuous. know, there is no outside influence anymore in it. And before we know it, we are as a little hub of a little interconnected web of a form of consciousness together.
Natasja Pelgrom (45:47)
that we are stuck in that same belief system. You know, we’re stuck in that same, the algorithm, ⁓ what we have now a lot. Whatever you’re following on social media, that’s your algorithm you’re getting. That’s the only world you’re in. A little side note, for me to not bypass, this is how I actually use social media to that my advantage. I will follow things that I’m not necessarily in agreement with. But just if you can’t convince them, confuse them, the algorithm.
Sam Believ (46:04)
Bye.
Natasja Pelgrom (46:16)
to get different information into your feed that might not necessarily be your information, to get other viewpoints. If I would ever have someone look at my, I follow, they might think that I’m in agreement with those viewpoints, which is fine. I know why I’m doing it, but it’s like, I always personally invite people to, how can you bring in different viewpoints and different understandings in a creative way?
Sam Believ (46:33)
I’m going to.
Natasja Pelgrom (46:45)
Right? How can you, because the world is complex, psychedelics is complex and it’s not getting any easier. So how can we be with our creativity in that sense? So if you want to work on and understand more about your spiritual bypassing or bypassing in general, I would invite anybody to think about like in terms of this example of following different things on social media. ⁓ What other ways could there be? Right? In terms of
Natasja Pelgrom (47:17)
what you could do. And one of the things that is a real red flag for you is ⁓ if you’re unable to acknowledge someone else’s complexity and what they’re experiencing, ⁓ which is maybe avoiding a feeling of anger, or whereas another one is where things are hidden, your insecurity is hidden, for example, by
Natasja Pelgrom (47:45)
Spiritual superiority. That happens a lot. These kind of things, when you’re noticing them slightly, that’s where you might need some external reflections in a way. And superiority ⁓ is a very interesting concept. actually have a course for, master class, sorry, for facilitators on shadow work and medicine work and how to
Sam Believ (47:45)
spiritual
Sam Believ (48:09)
Thank
Natasja Pelgrom (48:15)
work with shadow work and as a facilitator how to work for yourself and how to work with others. And this is just not because I studied psychology. I’m not here as a psychologist, you know, at all, but this is all things that through the work and the learning and I’ve had the blessing of having peers next to me that had far greater studies than I have, you know, and teach me and I’ve been a mirror for them and they’ve been a mirror for me and
Sam Believ (48:25)
Thank you.
Natasja Pelgrom (48:41)
I’ve been applying a lot of things and through the application, I can say, well, this is what I discovered. you know, being a lifelong learner, share it with you. But I want to circle back on superiority is a shadow aspect that I discovered for myself, you know, just to own myself in this conversation is when superiority is created is also a form that really is toxic because it helps you.
Sam Believ (48:42)
Bye.
Natasja Pelgrom (49:08)
not it helps you, but it creates a disconnect with other people where you don’t see the excellence of someone else anymore. And therefore, and this is what happens, and this was a very big learning and I’m being really private and candid here with you, but I’m okay with that, ⁓ is what happens is that not only what happens is that you become more more isolated. So when you don’t see the excellence in someone else, you consistently feel like you’re doing everything by yourself and there is a lack of support.
Natasja Pelgrom (49:37)
the world towards you. You might have a team of the most amazing people and you still feel like you’re carrying the weight of the team on your shoulders and you have to do everything yourself. This was a quality that I really had to understand on a very deep level where, of course, teaching agents and our molecules have been a part of me learning this.
Natasja Pelgrom (50:00)
But to be really honest was for a whole year not doing any ceremony with myself and really integrating, I came to this conclusion and this insight where I was like, ⁓ this is where a lot of, and then we go back to the beginning of our conversation about the challenges as entrepreneurs is that, and visionaries especially, is that you are a lot of the times doing things alone, you know?
Natasja Pelgrom (50:29)
the shadow aspect of that autonomy can be superiority, of course. And then we have spiritual superiority. So I just wanted to weave in some examples so it becomes really alive for your audience here. So go like, hey, maybe there is a little bit of, wait, I recognize this. This is what this looks like. So yeah, I hope it helps.
Sam Believ (50:49)
Yeah, shadow work is fascinating. ⁓ I’ve recently started learning more about and also teaching it and it gave me a lot of clarity on some of my own patterns and now you can kind of observe more on people as well and the way, ⁓ like especially in the retreat setting, the projections, the… ⁓
Sam Believ (51:12)
regressions and all that stuff that happens is really, really noticeable. But I think we’re kind of running out of time. So, ⁓ thank you so much for the episode. I think it was very, very deep and I think I’ll need to re-listen to it myself to kind of collect ⁓ all the information again. Where can people find more about you?
Natasja Pelgrom (51:34)
You can just go to my name, which is Natasha with a Dutch spelling. Pelgrom is also a Dutch spelling. dot com, that’s my website. And from there, you can go anywhere. We have Eudemonia Institute, is my all online ⁓ work and teachings. We do Stewards of the Sacred, which is a conference every year. It’s really more of a support and being in stewardship and right relationship.
Natasja Pelgrom (52:03)
with those that have walked this pathway before I did. So this is my way of contributing back. We always support a lot of different causes and individuals with stewards of the sacred. So that’s another one. And of course, Awakened in Medicine Within, where we host retreats. And we have just launched our nine-day practicum retreat. for our life learners, lifelong learners, to spaceholders, to practitioners who just want to deepen their own work because
Natasja Pelgrom (52:30)
There’s a beautiful amount of training out there, which is multiple months online. And that’s not what I wanted to bring forth. I wanted to bring forth a place where we can come in from nervous system to nervous system and sit and learn and grow together. that’s my next passion for 2025. So thank you so much, Sam, for inviting me. It’s always good to find peers in a space and build bridges from the Netherlands to Colombia. So thank you.
Sam Believ (52:57)
Thank you, Natasha. Guys, thank you for listening. ⁓ As always, do the whole assembly and I will see you in the next episode.