Me Sam Believ and my guest Oliver Scott talk about supernatural events during Ayahuasca retreats.
LaWayra Ayahuasca retreat
Transcript
Sam Believ: You’re listening to podcast.com.
Welcome back guys, to the episode of psychedelic what is it? Psychedelic Conversation. You are the host. The name is in progress, write the suggestions in the comments. Hasn’t been created yet Today. We we just thought about few things and stopped at the roles in the conversation and in general we’ll try to touch different subjects and just tried to get some nuggets to come out.
But the summary would be. Depression. Anxiety, escapism behaviors. Yeah. Addictions addictions supernatural stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Supernatural. Explain stuff that happens during the seventies. The relationship between mind and mind and emotion and the moisture is something else I’m missing.
Oliver Scott: I think there’s something back cotton, what it was in no
Sam Believ: particular order. We’ll just see if we can talk about those subject, if something good comes up. Yeah. When for me, the first that really excites me is the supernatural stuff. Yeah. That, that caught my, that catches my attention because I come from a very made materialistic.
Background, like I’m a mechanical engineer, so I worked with engines and physics and everything is explained and it seems to be that everything is clear. I’m very non-religious. I come from a country that. When I was born in Soviet Union. I spent my first two years in Soviet Union.
On my birth certificate, I have the hammer and Sickle, and religion was prohibited. So there was a religion. The only thing I tell you in Encounter Religion is, people when they get scared, they say oh my God, that is about it. Like this. This church is still remain, but. I actually got baptized, but because when I was growing up and religion was reactivated, some guy just came to my, our kindergarten and said you’re not baptized, like demons will get into, they just threatened me.
The azi scared me into it. Yeah. But I was never really religious and was always very materialistic. So for me in this journey with ayahuasca. Discovering gift of healing, which should not be real. And then actually observing that it works whenever I try to apply it, which is even stranger.
And then. Those stories that the connection between people and their families. When something happens to somebody during the ceremony and something gets removed or released from their family line and they get a call from their mom or their dad saying I felt something, what’s happening with you?
I saw you mad. It was like, there’s like reactivation of something that should not be real. Yeah. Or sometimes people healing stuff that’s. Sure that’s supposed to be healed or two different people seeing the same. Yeah, same vision in fact. So have anything, have you heard about anything like that’s not really unex, really unexplainable or some happening to yourself or somebody?
Oliver Scott: There’s one thing that definitely comes, came to mind when you mentioned about two people saying the same vision, seeing the same visions. And that happened to me and my friend, Alex Howell, when we were living in. I shouldn’t have said his full name, wouldn’t they? Broadcasters,
that’s too late.
No, they’re coming for you. You CI is coming for you. Alex. Alex, how the passport number? 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7. You’re out in the ether,
Oliver Scott: right? And yeah. We were living in, we were best mates and we were living in London at the time and we were he just introduced me like it by accident or by coincidence or synchronicity, what?
Whatever you wanna call it. To healing frequencies like the 432 Hertz and these other octaves. I’d never heard about this stuff before and we were on a mild psychedelic at the, in fact, it wasn’t really a psychedelic, I won’t say what it was ’cause I don’t want to con open up ideas of drug use in the in the podcast.
I wanna remain responsible. It was just a ma a very mild dose of a nons, psychedelic relaxant. Really. It was like a relaxant. And we were listening to these what do you call it, these frequencies and this sort of really weird, confusing, but profound experience happened and it’s the first and only time it ever happened and.
We were sat there on the sofa together and this very strange experience started to happen and I started to develop this sort of inner sort of vision, which wasn’t at all a symptom of this medicine we were on. And and he goes to me, he is whoa, all are you tripping balls? I’m like, yeah, man.
Are you, and we both look at each other and. And I was like, oh, I’m in this other realm and I can see these people. And he’s yeah, I can see it too. Like through the letterbox. And we started describing the same thing and it’s almost these frequencies did something and maybe adjusted the tuning on our brains and we’re very briefly tuned into this completely different reality.
And we were apprehending this sort of landscape that. Wasn’t on earth. I can’t really remember what it was like. The ground was pink and there was these weird but friendly looking creatures. It was super, you accidentally opened the, and you were that exactly what happened. I think the I think the frequencies where we were listening to, one of them was a dm was a pineal grand resonant frequency.
So my hypothesis is. In a completely scientific and materialistic way that this frequency resonated with our penal gus. It caused us to release a bit of our own natural DMT, and it triggered like my first and only inner natural D nm T experience in him as well. It still leaves that massive question of what does DMT do and what he’s seeing?
Is it real? But it was a very strange thing that.
Sam Believ: But like people could say you’ve still been consuming something and whatever. Like they, they can always say it was just a hallucination. But what about when it happens to two people when one person takes nothing at all?
The very recent experience that happened a couple months ago one person at the ceremony, he hasn’t spoken to his dad for more than five years. There’s some kind of very big trauma from childhood. He, during the ceremony, he was feeling the healing and releasing of this and like forgiving and he wrote him a seven, seven, like five or seven.
I don’t remember the exact amount. Page letter, like a physical letter. He didn’t send it to him or message him or call him nothing. The next morning, literally his dad called him and said, we need to talk. That’s like first time in many years. Yeah. It can be a co coincidence, but it’s like I’m too suspicious, right?
Yeah. Then one time where this girl from Africa and she was having a very profound experience, like TTO was doing the gleaning on her. He had to run, vomit like two, three times because it was so tough. Like whatever demon he was fighting, it was it was pro, it was like one level higher than him.
So he barely managed to like, know, had to use some help. Wow. But probably leveled up after that. Yeah. I really using, I really like using gaming and Mario, he not Super Mario, but free the fight RPG games. ’cause it’s like magic and in a way. Yeah. Yeah. And when he done that. He she like stood up and jumped up as if nothing happened.
Yeah. Yeah. Then later on she came to me and said can you please translate to the title that, you saved my life and this, and if I’m not mistaken, she said that she’s, her mom called her or some family member and they felt something as wrong, something being released. So it’s wow.
Oliver Scott: So intergenerational. Yeah. I was just gonna say, that’s so interesting ’cause it’s it. It impacts the whole lineage or bloodline or ancestry or whatever, and it’s some, this is something that I’ve heard or even been given pretty strong evidence of maybe five years ago when I was still very much firmly rooted in my materialistic scientific worldview.
I’d have found any sort of excuse to justify it in a different way. Oh, coincidence or this or that. But where I’m at now and what I’ve learned so far off various medicines, it does make perfect sense because, or it makes sense in a in a particular paradigm. And ’cause it seems that, from my perspective, the only thing that was restricting these possibilities and things that we’ve mentioned so far was this limited idea that the mind is.
Almost like a secretion of the brain. It’s just this sort of ephemeral thing that exists within the skull and it has no influence on, or it can exert no force upon anything beyond the skull. But if you consider that’s actually not the truth and that maybe the truth is the opposite, that our entire experiences within mind are not my mind, like the collective mind, like the Buddhists say.
Then why wouldn’t that girl’s that guy’s father or that girl’s mother have some sort of intuitive knowledge that something was happening with somebody they’ve got a very strong bond with. When these people exist within the same reality frame or the same mind or whatever, it’s like this conduit that is hidden from us by our scientific rationalism.
But if you accept that it’s a reality. These things that suddenly seem so paranormal, start to have quite a sensible explanation.
Sam Believ: I think I just realized a good analogy for this. It’s one analogy is we’re all computers. I. Without connection to internet. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I love it.
Yeah. The other analogy is we’re computers but we have connection to internet. Yeah. Yeah. And the other analogy is we’re all actually on the cloud. Yeah. And the computers are basically just screens where we are. Yeah. So which one is right? We don’t know. Yian theory, like what they call it collective unconscious.
Yeah. The fight that everything is somewhere down the cloud. And that obviously it’s very believable that they’re in that space where everything is connected. The souls communicate. Even when people die, they still go there. I really like that that, that thought is comforting to me. Coming back to what we started with, right?
I’m really non-religious. I thought, the moment I die, I fall on the ground and I rot and forget about it. Like the only the only positive I can find of that is let’s say, my meat will rotten and wars lead and then the grass will grow already. This kinda way of recycling.
Yeah. I recently, working with medicine, you just have no choice but to notice that you go to those space, like you said one time, you punctu it through that wall and so what’s beyond and whether it’s correct or not. Nobody could really nobody could really say, because nobody knows, right?
That’s what all religions are based on that assumption that there’s something there. I definitely felt presence of God couple times new ceremonies, and God for me is not a bearded guy or whatever. It’s basically that thing that like this understanding that everything is connected and like a universe is a God.
You a God, and Lamb God grow God and this palm trees a God. Yeah. Yeah. It’s all, this one thing is like being connected to it is when you feel that it’s a God, being disconnected is when you feel godless. And then I definitely started believing that you don’t really die. Like I don’t, it’s not that I, there was a specific moment, but like some time has passed and I went from thinking that, you die and that’s it.
To kinda like just not believing it anymore. It’s not that I adopted some other belief, it’s just that I removed that wrong belief. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And my opinion now is if you think about it, we as objects are basically information, but you tiny sperm meets tiny ag and everything else grows from the what you eat and stuff you can consume from around both physically and probably also energetically, right?
Yeah. Yeah. And so how unbelievable. Like you can send a movie or, and you can send blueprints to a fucking. A death star for some reason. Like you can send blueprints to for a ship to a shipyard in China and they’ll do a ship for you. And that’s the industry I worked in. So how unbelievable it is that this blueprint, what you could call soul.
Yeah. At the moment we die is being sent somewhere, wirelessly, we have wifi now we have Bluetooth and all this kind. What is this? What is, there are other levels of stuff that we dunno like and this thing about levels. Yeah, I was worried I’m not gonna have something to talk about this other conversation nicely.
Now I’m realizing do that, I’m like I’m not letting you speak. Is there enough memory on the phone to come to every end? As I was saying, it’s experie how it just comes out. Yeah. Yeah. And this is, even if I’m wrong, this is a very comforting notion. Okay, you die and then.
Something goes somewhere and then it goes somewhere else. And like those, I’m assuming those spaces where you go in psychedelic sometimes is a space where it so goes and those I like a lot of times those are very pleasant places to be. Yeah. So
Oliver Scott: what’s your opinion on that? It’s I’m just trying to remember now those a bit that I liked.
First of all, I like the the analogy with the internet and the, of being computers. Our minds work in a similar way. Which one? Which one appeals to you? Of three. You. You I’d never taken it to the cloud level, but it seemed so, it seemed like such a really fitting analogy when I thought about this same thing in my own contemplation that I was a computer, and that to have this sort of realization that there’s a God or this connection that you spoke about is exactly the same as just being plugged into the internet.
Because for a computer that’s never been plugged into the internet, even the idea of being connected to, sorry, I interrupt,
Sam Believ: but I just realized something really profound. Internet is just the, those connections, right? Yeah. It’s not a thing. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So God is that thing.
Yeah. Yeah. It is all that connection. No, is what God is. Yeah. It’s, it is it’s not something specific, but it sticks like yeah. That glue, it’s the
Oliver Scott: synergy between all these different knowers and. And yeah, like from the perspective of a computer that’s never been plugged in, even the idea of being connected to other versions of itself would be the most foreign concept ever.
It’d have no need to even think that’s even a possibility. But as soon as you plug with that ethernet cable in the back, it’s like hyperspace in terms of the computer. And so it really to me that feels like such an accurate analogy and. And you could even see it that this is certainly how I see it, that everything that man creates, the internet obviously being one of those things, it’s just like a reflection of, or a manifestation of his inner nature.
So like the fact that we’ve created this network of things that seems to quite nicely fit this metaphysical concept of connection. It is actually a production from that metaphysical connection and almost like mirrors and the world being a mirror of the inner soul or whatever. That’s, that fits quite nicely.
It’s like just a
Sam Believ: very kind of tainted mirror. We come up with our own versions of Yeah, exactly. Slightly uglier and
Oliver Scott: more backwards. Yeah. Yeah. We just need to give it a good clean, and almost the mirror’s so dirty that we’ve actually lost the ability to recognize ourselves in it and. We see everything as being separate things that aren’t intrinsically connected to ourselves, but when we start doing activities like meditating or taking medicine for example, we’re just giving that mirror a bit of a clean, and eventually there’ll be that moment of, oh my God, it’s me, shit.
This is who I’ve been hiding from this entire time. And these are those moments that really open up the heart and,
Sam Believ: yeah. One more thing that I wanna talk about, which is on, on the subject of supernatural, but it’s basically so far not confirmed, but sometimes on Ayahuasca for example, you get, it’s as if you put a lens or filter on, on you and you start perceiving flows of energy.
A lot of people commonly describe. And even on the last retreat, you had several people death. Describe this mesh or a net of they say it like, like a matrix. Yeah. And I’ve had people describe it to me know ceremony after ceremony and, even on different medicine. Yeah. Yeah. So interest one, one time here, upstairs, you cannot see it, but there’s a bonfire in some small roof and the agner roof that I built, but functional.
And some chairs where we would sit by the fire during the ceremonies. And I remember seeing this ver I was in my trip, psychedelic trip, psyched up, but then I opened my eyes and I was still, seeing things visually, but it was not like just a bunch of colors that don’t apply.
It was augmented reality in the sense that it was right there. And I would just see this stuff green color glistening veins of something that I understood was as energy going from old directions, kinda like a vane plants to the fire. And it wasn’t that like I would look around, that they would shift with me.
They were there. Yeah, I would just see them when I would look at him. Wow. And then every stone around the fire my, the logo that we have, the. Oh, you want it’s that moment that I I want I still, no it’s a very rudimentary one, but if I get a graphic designer that, that’s good enough to understand my vision, I would like for him to draw and maybe, when this blows up, or if, no, not if this blow up, but when this goes up you he or she will find me.
I saw those green veins of energy going around each rock and then ending up in the fire and then this energy would burn. And the fire was a spec, a specific kind of spirit kind of being, it’s not just this like plasma I was looking at. It was the It was a thing. Yeah. It had a person.
In general when on psychedelics, when you look at plants, you realize they’re not just plants. They’re something else. It’s not just a physical appearance. Definitely. So the, my question is and also every rock would have OG lifts on it. Like letters basically saying I’m that rock.
Yeah. That’s my name. That’s who I am. Like and they would also not change, like I did not know how to read them, but it was all there fixed and there was, it was, everything was surrounded by notion that this moment where I am right now is exactly where it should be and it cannot be done any better.
And this is just, yeah, perfect place for this moment to happen. I. And even though nothing was happening, it’s a very comforting notion that this is a perfect place for me to be right now. And all those people are exactly at the place where they need to be. Yeah. I’m losing my breath. I have so much to say.
That’s nice. And this is, but not to change the subjects. Is, and my question was like, is this a real thing that I’m seeing? Is it just something that I normally have no ability to perceive? Yeah. Is it just a hallucination? And if it is a hallucination, how come it’s so real and why everything is augmented.
Yeah. And then it comes to, gave me this notion that maybe there are like levels, like we have infrared and visible and exactly what, if there are levels to that we, which we haven’t discovered yet, which psychedelics, you put those in, some people can see totally different landscape, yeah.
What does the what does a bat see? So it’s solar or what does it see? Oh, yeah, exactly. What does it flies? What hell does that Yeah, exactly. So what the, what are the levels are there with, psychedelic service? Same psychedelic, but on a different Yeah. Level. What are the levels gaining and how many are there?
So is it wrong? Is it
Oliver Scott: just a hallucination or is it that, this is a very interesting question, Mike. This is something that I’ve, I certainly don’t have the answer, but I’ve thought about this a lot and, ’cause I’ve had similar experiences of you, you’ve said it very well, this augmented reality like.
In fact, one of the moments that one of these, like life changing moments was ironically, the moment I met my a moment I truly recognized my now girlfriend, there was this moment of this augmented reality, like the these levels to reality. And I was able to see this other reality and it was like, yeah, is it real?
And then it the conclusion I eventually drew with, not with regards to what I’d seen, but it was with regards to my own definition of the word real. And if we are constantly surrounded by all of this, and this is our solid reference point of language and terminology, our definition of real is gonna be almost like a condensate of this being the ultimate reality.
And so if we’re not, I guess to, to link you with your analogy of these different spectrums of the electromagnetic, sorry. These different regions of the electromagnetic spectrum. If we’ve never seen infrared and we’d never have a word for it, there’d be no need for it. But then if one day we eat a particular plant or a berry and it’s oh shit, there’s this, there’s these infrared structures. I need to start creating new concepts for this because all my old concepts aren’t sufficient. And so I, my personal belief is that there are layers and there are other energies and intelligences and beings all around us.
Just like there are all these different radio stations all around us and we, you can shoot into different ones. Like the spirit realm and the Exactly. Yeah. But it’s all spirit really. In my worldview, it’s all this, it’s all energy. Just different f because if there’s
Sam Believ: like thousands of levels and some pieces are like, you go somewhere from level.
Exactly. So it of a 300. Then occasionally maybe they take their own version of psychedelic, Hey, sure, I made this call. You’re like yeah. Not just, or somebody. Yeah. That was them. Yeah. How unbelievable it is. Like it brings me to the concept of in infinity.
Yeah. Yeah. Is infinity just linear in space or is also infinity just going deep Yeah. In levels. Right?
Oliver Scott: Infinite and infinite dimensions. Light,
Sam Believ: yeah.
Oliver Scott: There’s is it is so crazy. It’s,
Sam Believ: yeah, it’s a real mind, and you lack, we lack words. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I think our brain. If you believe in that, kinda like the cloud cloud analogy that we are in the cloud and this is just a manifestation.
Like we, we are, we have, our intent is very limited. Yeah. It just receives this tiny amount of information and what? I really like this tiny ants. Yeah. He’s happy there. We went too deep, we losing it. Decline. But this is all good. I think the view is a little, this I don’t know. I hope so. I wanna talk about something else that, this moment that I experienced and when I was describing this situation with the fire and this moment in the ceremony, how often do we feel that way?
I really don’t think I ever feel that way in, in my normal waking life. It’s like everything is exactly as it should be. And we always assume it’s not, we always assume we could be somewhere better or somewhere else or somewhere, but the reality is that it is the only way. The only way it could be like, because it’s, that’s the way it is.
Like just the one moment. Why can’t we feel that way every moment? Yeah. This is, the moment you stop and thinking like, I’m exactly where I need to be and this is perfect, and why can’t we? They’re like, why,
Oliver Scott: why don’t we ever? Yeah. That’s that’s another sort of I think it’s a thing that a lot of people, maybe 99.9% of people will be able to relate to, like this ability to truly value the present moment.
I know it’s something I struggle with a lot and it’s almost like in I, I see my mind as just this accumulation of time. It’s this big accumulation of time that prevents me from just being in this one moment because there’s all these memories of the past, all these thoughts about the future, what I’d want to be different, what I wanna do tomorrow while when dinner ready.
And it’s all these different thoughts of time are just clouding us and preventing us from just being completely content in this moment. ’cause it’s the only moment that has ever existed. It’s like pollution, right? Yeah,
Sam Believ: exactly. Like in the city we have light pollution, mental pollution, we have mental pollution.
We just, all those like loose thoughts just bouncing around the head. Yeah, that’s exactly what it is. That’s where generally comes in, right? You catch those loose thoughts, you put them in the page. Yeah. Hopefully there’s a bit less noise. Yeah.
Oliver Scott: Yeah. I’ve certainly found that’s been helping me over this.
Obviously the medicine’s probably helped me more than the journaling, but the. They’re on the same, they compliment each other.
Sam Believ: It’s no excel that I gave you this, and it’s not because it’s a dream of mine or, an indenture mine that people, after they end up filling their integration guide, they will go to the pages and just keep yeah.
As I explained, I want them to imagine they’re in imagine their word circle. Yeah. And just start telling like how their day was and like what else do they have, because. It’s only it feels like there’s nothing but the moment you start, it just starts pouring out, right? Like this conversation.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. We like we began one thing and then we’re another, we already forgot whether this is kinda like a river and it just flows. Yeah. It just nice and fluid and it’s very interesting. But it’s fun. Yeah. Yeah. Let’s jump to another topic, right? Depression, anxiety.
Escapism, escapism, behaviors, addictions.
Yeah.
Sam Believ: I think we can easily tie them all together. Yeah, de definitely. I’ll begin with probably very wrongly quoting Gabo Mate, which is, I don’t mind if this becomes a podcast, he can say a good achievement will be getting him here.
I’ve actually met people who met him. Wow. Is he hung the Hungarian guy hung Hungarian Canadian Dr. Guy. Yeah. He says don’t look for, don’t look for substance. Look for Bain. Okay. So genius. Wow. Yeah. People, yeah. It’s so hard to get addicted to something when you’re in a good place mentally, like you can just, no.
Addiction is powerful. Yeah. Addiction is like a, something. It’s like a wrong plug to plug a hole. Yeah. But it’s, you only jump to those behaviors or substances when you’re in a bad place mentally. And when you’re not, you can. Play with the, like you can break, drink some alcohol and feel amazing and not remember about it next day.
What do you think? Yeah,
Oliver Scott: completely just even that sort of nugget of thought of his, about looking for the pain even that’s just liking up all these regions of my brain, was with different channels of thought, but. I agree with what he’s saying and also know it’s true from my own experience, like when I’ve struggled in the past with addiction or dependency on substances, whether it be alcohol or a big one for me was ketamine.
When I was after the period, maybe not until four years, maybe three years after my dad died. Started using it rec socially in, in London. And it was only after, maybe in London. Yeah, London, with the vowels. It’s only after nine months of being in London, I thankfully had this sort of rude awakening by a more helpful medicine, which was LSD when I was a music festival.
It just helped me realize though, so clearly that. The reason I was that I enjoyed taking ketamine so much wasn’t because of this sort of sensorial bliss that it gave me, because it helped me to shut out this pain that I just had manifested just ever present in my heart. And I just thought, I just enjoyed taking Ketamine because it was sensorial, but that.
Experience helped me get a level deeper and it was like, oh, that’s why I’ve been doing it. That’s why I keep going back to it. That’s why it stuck to me because it’s got this sort of little pain hook that it is almost like a little cactus on a jumper. It’s it’s hooked itself in there because I’m in that particular place mentally and emotionally at that moment in my life, and one once had managed to move past that.
I don’t take drugs anymore, but even maybe year, a year after it, I was able to try that particular drug. It was like, you know what? That actually wasn’t even that nice. It was, and then had no desire to even try it again. And so it was really potent for me how much that changed my relationship with the sorts of crutches or these buffers that help you through these hard times and.
And I went for a period of demonizing in which I’m, I think I’m passed because I think certain medicines or even things that would be considered drugs like ketamine is probably in most people’s vocabulary a drug and setting a medicine, it still helped me a lot and it’s still, it still helped me deeper my understanding and grow.
Everything has its purpose. Yeah. Ketamine
Sam Believ: by itself, it can be a drug, in a good partition has, you have the amazing way to remove pain from Yeah. From a memory and process trauma. Yeah. The I think I want to talk about depression, antidepressants and also quitting at the depressants to come to the ceremony.
We call that. Let’s take a short,