In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with Bia Labate, a Brazilian anthropologist, activist, and one of the most influential voices in the global psychedelic movement. She is the executive director of the Chacruna Institute, editor of 28 books, and a champion of Indigenous rights, equity, and cultural integrity in plant medicine spaces.

We touch upon topics of:

• Bia’s early psychedelic explorations and road trip across the Americas (01:02)
• Her first Ayahuasca experiences and academic journey (02:41)
• Pre-Google era of plant medicine research and early stigma in Brazil (03:23)
• Ayahuasca’s paradoxical rise in the digital age (07:54)
• Loneliness, vulnerable connection, and the appeal of Ayahuasca (09:51)
• The evolution of Ayahuasca use in Brazil and globally (11:42)
• Comparing Ayahuasca traditions: Santo Daime, UDV, Shipibo, Huni Kuin (16:32)
• The limitations of comparing traditions and the food-culture metaphor (19:28)
• Why Bia has published 28 books and her methodology (21:49)
• Creating legitimacy for Ayahuasca as a field of study (24:38)
• The tension between spiritual practice and entrepreneurship (30:51)
• Ethical complexities of running an Ayahuasca retreat (32:16)
• Integration circles and her mixed feelings toward them (35:39)
• The founding, mission, and programs of Chacruna Institute (42:16)
• Indigenous Reciprocity and Psychedelic Justice initiatives (44:37)
• Chacruna’s conferences, education, and publications (47:01)
• Women and psychedelics, invisible labor, and cultural dynamics (50:58)
• Menstruation taboos in ceremony and cultural relativism (55:44)
• Ayahuasca’s origins and Colombia’s historical role (59:21)
• Ayahuasca’s global spread to places like Hawaii and Australia (01:03:08)
• The cultural mission of Chacruna and decolonizing psychedelic narratives (01:09:02)

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to http://www.lawayra.com

Find more about Bia Labate at http://www.bialabate.net or on Instagram @labatebia. Learn more about her organization at http://www.chacruna.net.

Transcript

Sam Believ: You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast.com.

Bia Labate: I had a, an important role in creating this field work framework of discussions for the universe of ayahuasca, helping to legitimize ayahuasca as a field of studies because we’re also stigmatized within academia and even in anthropology, that is a science, not soft, so to speak, science that is not considered so serious by, biomedical researchers.

But even within anthropology, that there is a whole openness towards the otherness. Other cultures, religion, tradition, indigenous anthropology study, this kind of thing, exotic things that are not very common. But even within anthropology, in the early years, we were quite ridiculed for our studies. For example, you go to your defense of your master thesis and the professor ask, are you gonna be serving that little tf.

Afterwards, which is infantalizing and ridiculing your serious academic work. So our work, our consistency, our faith was part of a movement to legitimize ayahuasca as a field of work, of research.

Sam Believ: Hi guys, and welcome to Ayahuasca podcast. As always, we do the whole assembly. Today I’m having an interview with Bia LaBatte. BIA is a Brazilian anthropologist and leading voice in psychedelic culture. She’s the executive director of the Chacruna Institute, where she champions indigenous rights, equity, and cultural integrity in psychedelic spaces.

With over two decades of experience in ayahuasca and psychoactive research, she authored 28 books and is a key figure in global convert conversations on plant medicines and decolonization. This episode is sponsored by Awa Ayahuasca Retreat. At Laira, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity, Laira connect, heal, grow.

Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you. Be welcome to the show.

Bia Labate: Hi, thank you. Thank you for having me and for the kind words.

Sam Believ: Bia, let’s let’s start with your story. What what brought you to work with with Plat medicines and ’cause I believe in one of the interviews you said it was, it felt like you were dragged into the vortex.

Bia Labate: I don’t know what interview is that? It’s a vortex. I’m not sure it’s a word that I use a lot, but yeah, basically, like so many other people in this space, what drove me to plant medicines was a personal inter curiosity, a kind of spiritual inquiry and a taste for adventure and for. Finding new things and traveling and learning about other cultures.

And so I had the chance to try mushrooms and peyote when I was backpacking in my 1920s in Mexico. I did a big road trip across the Americas, traveled for one and a half year and was very open. And, in that kind of pure early years that you’re very wanting to change the world and full of love and hope and have more freedom and more time and more naivete, still like young heart. And it was very influential and really changed my perspective on life and on being human, and on being here in the planet. And took a huge turn since then and later on went to the Amazon and tried ayahuasca. And had different experiences both in the San and UDV context and with proven Vemo or Misti Smo and then Tibo and others, and have since then, devoted my whole life to studying and researching, publishing, advocating, sharing, bridging, all of that.

Sam Believ: You said you were very excited and you wanted to change the world. I believe you, you are changing the world through your work because I think you, your work reaches a lot of people. So it’s not too far from what came to be. And for me, it also started from a road trip through Americas.

That’s how I ended up in Colombia. And then later on found Ayahuasca or Jahi, how it’s called here. You started working with Ayahuasca 30 years ago. It was back before it was a saying. I think Google did not exist. Can you tell us about. Back then, like how did you find your first ceremony? How was it?

Bia Labate: It’s funny that you mentioned the topic of Google because I remember I was on this just returning from Alpa, like right now, last month and I had been, the last time I had been in Alpa was 25 years ago in the year 2000 doing field work for my PhD. And I remember going to a little internet cafe and asking a local like, what is Google?

It’s just going in the middle of this little town in the Amazon. And he is let’s boy, fus, let’s move. It’s very easy. And showing me how to put a word in Google and it, appearing the options on screen. So it was curious for me to have that experience in the middle of a small cafe in a jungle town.

Yeah, and I guess, I’m 54. It’s not like when I think I first had contact with the internet when I was 26. We had, I had a blog at an early age as well. I started a blog in 2004. But for us experiencing the worlds like that was not exotic. It was just the world the way it is. I feel the constant overwhelm, also learning about AI and Bitcoin and NFTs and everything.

It’s very hard to catch up. There’s a lot going on all the time. In a way, it was different to travel because you couldn’t like research online and you couldn’t be in communication with your family. This big road trip, I disappeared for three months. My, my parents resent me for that until today.

I did write a few letters that got lost in the mail which was unfortunate, but I didn’t call, you had, it was hard to call as well. But it was good. It was it was what can I tell you? It was some good in years. I felt a lot of love and a lot of it was a great privilege to, to have these experiences, to go and to find out, be curious, and just go by learning and asking questions.

The key is trying to learn the language, talking to people, just asking question, putting yourself in the position of a student and, not the center of the action, but you’re there to listen. To learn.

Sam Believ: Yeah. I think, there’s a, the internet is blessing and a curse because now we can research everything about the place we go to and to such an extent that we don’t have this surprise or this awe and amazement of coming there because we’ve seen like some videos, they, because they’re edited, they even look nicer than the real life.

And same with io, like people that shop at my retreat for example they’re full of information and a lot of it is not a good information as well. And then you have to not just teach them, but you have to reprogram their beliefs and understanding of it. And I it’s funny ’cause I can imagine, you googling your first word and it would be interesting if it was your first word you Google was ayahuasca, but I’m sure it wasn’t.

Bia Labate: I mean there wasn’t a lot of things about ayahuasca like it is now as well. I saw witness in my own life about all of this explosion. I’m not the first generation that. Watch this explosion. There are, researchers, anthropologists that went to the Amazon on the sixties. I’m not talking about early explorers as well, or Richard Spruce who found the brew, or I’m talking about more contemporary generation of researchers.

I have a professor, Jean Langdon. She went to the Amazon, I think 1971 when I was, born others, Michael Harner and the folks that wrote the Yaha letters, Ginsburg. And but it was it was not as I say, there wasn’t all these offerings and there wasn’t all these sites and you couldn’t really shop online like you can.

And I agree with you. It’s a paradoxical time actually. You today, you have to pay. And good money to be offline. Like you have to go to a special retreat where you cut yourself. It’s those paradoxes. We have never had so many means of communication on so many fronts. Every single person has a lot of different methods of communication, and yet we have this kind of epidemic of loneliness and this connection.

So it’s impossible to think whether there’s a a connection between those two things. And this anxiety for new technology is completely like not replacing the lack of need for slowing down and nature, which is also a big issue for people, especially from cities. And I think that’s also a lot of the appeal of the ayahuasca experience for a lot of people is this sense of remembering something, of connecting to.

Generic feeling of being a human and belonging to a planet and having a purpose and a meaning and feeling connected to the stars, to the universe, to the moon, to the invisible world, to the world between, beyond us, to this living web of connections, this breathing, planet earth full of this beings that we are in relationship with and our other fellow humans are kinship.

And I think that’s also why ayahuasca is such a boom and so desired, which doesn’t mean that it can’t be object of the same, to the same colonizing processes that we’re talking about here, to which is frankly related to the advent of big cities. And, we’re not drinking water from rivers and.

I’m sorry, I’m a little bit going all over the place here. I’ll go back to your questions. You have what?

Sam Believ: It’s okay. There’s no fixed rules on what you can talk about, what you cannot talk about. We like to let it flow, but what you talk about loneliness is a big thing. It’s like we have hung some friends on Facebook and we have all those people around us, but we are lonely and lonelier than we ever were before.

And we have a lot of people coming here. And they, there’s a group of people that they’ve never met before and through Ayahuasca and also through vulnerable sharing, they end up really connecting to such an extent that we have groups that people met each other for the first time and now they travel together.

They do things together. There’s something missing in our society. Which makes this vulnerable connection possible. And I believe part of it, part of the issue is the internet because everyone is so perfect on Instagram. So everyone thinks, oh my God, everyone is perfect except for me. So when people come and they share vulnerably and they actually talk about the problems, then they can, through that imperfections, they stick to each other.

And yeah, there’s definitely an epidemic of loneliness. But one question I wanted to ask you is you come from Brazil and Brazilian? I, based in statistics, Brazil has highest percentage of people that worked with ayahuasca. It’s an astonishing like 0.8% or something like that, which is still very small amount, but it’s more than any other countries.

So like growing up in Brazil, were you. Were you hearing about Ayahuasca? What was the perception like? Or is it just same as everywhere else?

Bia Labate: No, it’s not it’s not something that, everybody goes to school and have conversations about ayahuasca in high school to now, yes, more.

But when I grew up it was a bit demonized, frankly. It was a bit persecuted and pathologized When I was in high school, we heard a lot about a cult in the Amazon that, gave people, brainwashed people. And there were a few scandals that happened or in the early days as well with people that left their families and moved to the Amazon and cut ties or, accidents or things.

And then there were some celebrities that. Came out and talked about it, but they were also a bit stigmatized. There’s a lot of media sensationalism. So it was more, it was not entirely normalized. It’s not something that you would talk, in your family meetings. This is for me, the eighties, the nineties I think it, it expanded from beyond the Amazon in the like eighties to cities like Sao Paulo and Hu hug Janero.

And then in the nineties it became more and more popular. I think early two thousands you could say that there was this explosion. When I did my master thesis, you had only, mainly like in the big cities and the indigenous folks that lived in villages they used the ayahuasca among themselves, but they were not traveling.

To the big cities. There were a few events like the Eco 92 summit in huge janero. There was like some movement, but in general, the traveling groups of indigenous visitors to the city started in like 2003, four, 2005. Now 2025, it’s 15 years later. You have an explosion of everything on all different modalities.

But this is all to say that you could follow this process. In my lifetime, I was witness of all of these changes. For me, when I wanted to do my master thesis, it was called the reinvention of the use of ayahuasca and urban centers. I had to take a subway and talk to somebody that would agree to tell me, as long as I kept him anonymous, meet in this neutral spot somewhere that gave me a telephone, that led me to somebody that would be willing to talk to me.

Because I wanted to try to research what was happening in the margins besides and UDV, which were considered like the main official churches and the, so to speak allowed or permitted by law. There’s some gray areas, but they were holding this place of tradition in the imaginary, in the larger social imaginary cultural references.

And so anything beyond that was really edgy. That’s like 1998, to 2000. I launched my book in 2002. It was still pretty not. There were like five people you could be counting on that. And today there’s like dozens and hundreds of ceremonies each weekend. Same in the us I have witnessed similar expansion in places like New York or Los Angeles, here in San Francisco, in the Bay Area Hawaii.

There’s some spots that are, more concentrated, but I’m sure there’s also just a lot that we don’t know out there.

Sam Believ: So Co Columbia is actually the second country in that list of percentage of ayahuasca use after Brazil. Which is not surprising because there’s also every weekend in every big cities, there’s couple different shamans coming and serving medicine and they have their own circles.

I’ve only been exposed to Colombian version of Ayahuasca and Colombian tradition, so I’ve never I don’t know much about Santa Diamond in UDV. And I’m sure my listeners also it would be interesting if you could tell us, ’cause you worked with different shamans, different traditions in different countries.

What differences you notice between, let’s say Peruvian tradition Shabo tradition, or I forgot the other tribe that you work with? Ka

Bia Labate: KU is, they, the name they gave themselves and they the self denomination and the nickname by the Portuguese. The one, the way they were renamed is Ka Kaa.

But yeah, that’s a very like big. Question for a lifetime. The AMI traditions and the UDV, they’re similar in, they hold a lot of similarities. In a kind of more structural generic sense, you could say. They come from a sort of similar metrics, which is a combination of aminian shamanism and Christian influences popular Catholicism and also some Afro religion elements.

From ble. There are some elements of European is artism and so you could say that they drink on the same source, but the rituals themselves are very different. For example, Santa Dmi has a ritual that is dancing that can take many hours on this kind of standard dance to, to, to the side, to that side, similar and.

Similar. It’s repetitive and with the lights on and there’s another ritual that you sit and you close your eyes and it’s more like a meditation. And the UDV has individuals a chance, not like Dime has collective chorus. The UDV has just one person singing, you could say, reminds you more of IDOs from like Peruvian traditions.

My experience in with TS and in Columbia, I have I’ve been three times, but I’ve also sat in ceremonies abroad outside of Columbia. I guess I, I don’t mention that in my bio because I forget, I have done so many things I forgot. Yeah, I think it’s more festive in a way that, it has can have the harmonica and it’s more like it expansive in a way, should people is normally.

At night and those are at night too, but like with the very dark and very introspective and silent and really pointing towards that inner healing. And I feel that other indigenous traditions also when you queen, are more like, I don’t know how to say it, like festive or celebratory, but it doesn’t mean that it’s not healing.

So anyway, this kind of question is the kind of question that I don’t love. Just like people can go, they can have their, experiences. It’s not my job to translate all of these things, into words. There’s lots of books. It’s a lifetime. It’s you’re saying what’s the difference of the food in one country to another?

It’s it’s a whole other tradition and it’s. It is good to think about these things as like food, nutrition. It’s just this innumerous ways of cooking, innumerous, ingredients, innumerous. Each cook is gonna have one tip, is gonna have one angle. It’s like the, this pot of culture, knowledge, generations, insights, layers, traditions, people, voices, sentiments, ethos.

It’s a lot of things. It’s, it’s a whole universe. And once the more you get involved, the more you think you don’t know anything. And actually the last, you feel comfortable in talking about it. Because it’s also like something you can really express in words. And it’s just a very magical and powerful and enchanted understanding.

It’s a whole paradigm to see the world if you go deeper in this path. It’s also not our job to tell everybody to do it, and it’s not for everybody. Anyway, I hope that answered a bit.

Sam Believ: Yeah. The yeah, it’s the, there’s definitely this I think it’s called Danning Kruger Effect, where you, the more you know, the less you realize, till you actually know more.

You, this like this graph and people that have one ceremony, they’re like, oh my God, I’m a shaman now. And the people who’ve had hundreds of ceremonies and they’re really work and that, they’re like, oh my God, I know nothing. ’cause it’s so complex. And I think the reason you get asked those questions is because there’s not that many people that have had your experience and exposure to so many different traditions.

And also there’s not that many people that wrote so many books as you did. You wrote 28 books about, close to this topic. So why so many? What, what has driven that level of contribution?

Bia Labate: I didn’t write 28 books. I published 28 books. So I wrote, I co-wrote, I co-edited, I edited, there’s like different modalities of book production.

And I think it’s been a passion, what can I say? It’s, one thing led to the other, my, my recipe for my, for being so prolific. And the reason why I have done so much is because I have really a method of learning by doing. So if I’m interested in a topic, I’m just gonna create a book around it and try to learn by creating it.

A way to think a book is like you think what has been done, and so you map. What, where is the discussion at? And even if you write a book proposal for publishers, you have normally to do some kind of session called competing books. And that session, if you look at it in a loving way, and not in a negative way, is like a chance for you to examine the literature, what exists, what is out there.

And so then you can say, I’m giving you an example. I don’t know there’s a bunch of book in the seventies. There’s a bunch of book books by people that died. There’s a bunch of book in Spanish. There’s a bunch of, things on pharmacology on this specific aspect, but there is not this and that.

So that’s a gap. Then how do you fill that gap? And then you map everybody that’s working on that gap on their different contributions and you compare what are, the pros and cons of it. And then maybe you have five people that are very doing similar work on this one trend, but then this one is more, generic and speaks better to a wide range.

So by learning what everything exists. For example, our peyote book that we did when I was living in Mexico, I spent about six months mapping all the things that had ever been published about peyote on all fields, history, pharmacology indigenous uses, legal matters. And then we create a book collection that is a, representative of this whole, for example, now I’ve been really wanting to do a book about, the new indigenous Urbans uses of Ayahuasca in Brazil because my master was about the expansion of Central Diamond UDV to the big cities. That first wave that I mentioned before. Now there’s a new wave since mid two thousands of an explosion of a new phenomenon. So there’s a lot of different thesis out there.

If you create a collection and you get the best of what is out there, you really help launch the fields, you create the framework for the conversation. So I’m not the only one, and it’s not just me. There’s a other people doing this, but I had a an important role in creating this. Field work framework of discussions for the universe of ayahuasca.

Legitimate helping to legitimize ayahuasca as a field of studies because we’re also stigmatized within academia and even in anthropology, that is a science, not soft, so to speak, science that is not considered so serious by, biomedical researchers. But even within anthropology that there is a hole.

Openness towards the otherness. Other cultures, religion, tradition, indigenous, anthropologists study, this kind of thing. Exotic things that are not very common. But even within anthropology, in the early years we were quite ridiculed for our studies. For example, you go to your defense of your master thesis and the professor ask, are you gonna be serving that little T afterwards?

Which is infantalizing and ridiculing your serious academic work. So our work, our consistency, our faith was part of a movement to legitimize. I was ’cause of field of work, of research, and I have co-hosted in the Brazilian Anthropological Association in know working groups on religious and traditional and sacred plant uses combined with other social phenomena that.

Is also stigmatized and marginalized. And we have had these working groups for many years. So it’s three, three days of conversation. And each day is a different topic and you have seven papers each day, and you have people coming from all over the country. And when we first launched this, there was, hardly any persons.

And now we always have to reject a bunch of thesis. I have a publication that I did, I think 2008 or something that was the reference. It was a balance of the field of references, academic references that were ever published about ayahuasca. And we tracked down over 500.

This is it would be very hard to do such work this day. I have done a lot of work of keeping up with the bibliography and it exploded as well. Realities after. The literature is after reality. So the reality goes faster and then the researchers go trying to catch up. And so there was a time that we could map rituals, churches phenomena, and the literature.

And then there is an explosion of all of that. I got overwhelmed, I also had a kind of burnout of trying to keep up. And it’s been like, like drinking ayahuasca itself, there’s been different waves. There’s moments of deep enthusiasm, deep love for the studies, and there’s moments that it feels a little stuck and uninteresting.

And then, I’m just coming back from a diet with ayahuasca and it was very interesting because the maestro told us, don’t read, try to silence your mind. But, if you read something, it’s going to, you should read something spiritual. And then there’s this library full of books of ayahuasca and I’m thinking, I’m not gonna read a book a, a book about ayahuasca because that’s academic for me.

I’m gonna start to have thinking about like references and why was this coded? Anyway, after a few days, my friend got the book and bought it and gave it to me a book, and I decided to read. And then I started to read the book in my diet and I started to think it was so extremely interesting and I started to laugh a lot and myself, because basically I was thinking, wow, so interesting to read about.

I was like, like I came to day one all over again. I was completely fascinated with the study of ayahuasca and thinking about the diet I was doing and reading the book. And then I had a book, a big book diet. I was thinking a lot about all the books that I published and how I want to publish other books and how other.

Teammates in Karina should be, have a chance to publish their books and came back with a bunch of ideas of new books and extending, that book, vision to colleagues. Inna and seeing the need to digitalize materials. Anyway, this is really nerdy. I don’t know why you got me talking about all of this random, very obscure academic interest in Ayahuasca books.

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Grow L-A-W-A-Y-R a.com. No, but that’s that’s what you enjoy talking about. And that’s the whole idea. I don’t want it to be boring for you. You mentioned that you’re on the right now, so can you maybe talk to us about, so I, you learn by doing and you learn by doing. If you wanna learn something, you write a book about it.

I learn by doing, but when I’m fascinated with the topic, I start a business about it. So I started an now retreat, which is very successful and very beautiful. But I struggle a lot with the balance between my own spiritual journey and the business and entrepreneurship, which is a very different energy, almost opposing.

How do you balance your academic pursuits with your own spiritual work? Writing all those books. Do you ever find yourself in a ceremony where you’re like deep with the medicine and having your own experience and there’s like a narrator voice what am I gonna write? How am I gonna describe this in the book?

Or something like that.

Bia Labate: That’s a really good question and it’s a really dense question for me because it’s a question that goes back, 30 years of my life. And it’s the essence of everything for me, how to combine all these other aspects. I do wanna cheat a bit by your question and just say that wanna encourage a reflection about Ayahuasca businesses.

What you said about yourself is interesting and there’s a chapter in a book of ours that’s called Global Ayahuasca Entrepreneurship or something, and it’s talking exactly about how the business of ayahuasca is different than other businesses. Because in a lot of industries you have all these investors or people coming in and trying to create.

Profit, a lot of the ayahuasca center centers and related economies, let’s say the paraphernalia, the textiles and paintings and CDs and all, tobacco or things that go together with it. A lot of it is started by people like yourself that fell in love with ayahuasca and then created a ayahuasca business and ayahuasca retreat.

And then there’s this paradox that, a lot of people feel like I wanna drop out and I’m tired of capitalism, individualism, consumerism, shallow, western society, and I’m gonna go to the Amazon, drink ayahuasca and help others do the same. But by doing that, they’re also bringing this economy.

To the world of Ayahuasca. And then there’s also these paradoxes that are associated to this growth, which has not always been positive for local people, and sometimes have even increased the difference between foreigners and locals. And also, frequently locals are in a position of less power and are not like the leaders of the retreat or end up working as, chauffeur or maids or, cleaners or the generic shaman, but not a real active agent.

So that’s an interesting discussion about the economy of ayahuasca. I don’t know anything about you or your center, and I’m not trying to get into any merits here. I’m just saying that’s a good discussion. And I think that a paradox for founders of centers, it’s also they are I’m an advisor to a few centers.

I have helped Misti Vegeta for over 10 years as assisting him with issues and. More recently had other experiences, helping in the foundation of a retreat and consult with retreats. And it’s a big challenge for retreats as well to find this balance. Like you want to announce you want to market because you need clients, but you can’t say this is going to work and, pay and your success is guaranteed.

And there’s a lot of issues around marketing and whether it’s like ethical to try to push on people to drink ayahuasca because it’s not for everybody. And there can be like situations where it’s not helpful and there can be problems like just with putting it in social media and making claims.

So I have, helped people try to navigate where to find a balance of. Echo Ayahuasca businesses. That is not like making it a panacea, is not trying to fish for new beginners all the time to just, and yet have to keep it rolling. To pay the staff to pay the people that are involved. And I think all of this balances between, I can make a joke, I was like 20 years fanatical for Ayahuasca and nine years fanatical for Una.

The joke is Una is the nonprofit, but it’s named after Ayahuasca. So in a way I never got out of it. But yeah, I’m just gonna say I had different phases. I had phases where I was completely in love and enamored and thought that was the ultimate thing of humanity. I had phases where I was very disillusioned, especially with the patriarchy, the politics, macho leaders and lack of transparency and problematic leaders, I think the main challenge is like charismatic leaders that, people tend to project on them like all the, benefits from the experience, lack of, clarity on, on, on a lot of in integrity issues and not to talk about sexual abuse, which is happens.

And then I have phases of being re enchanted. And, as I said, I’m just coming out of this experience, which was so incredible. I had moments of deep happiness, of deep contemplation and deep gratitude. I had a journey through my life that is just unique that it’s hard to get. I don’t know how, you know how to get something like that.

It is really my path. And I feel, I feel really blessed. I feel really lucky. And one thing that I have struggled with is this integration circles because from where I come from my early ages, my early years in Ayahuasca, there was never integration. And we learned not to talk a lot about it.

It’s personal and intimate. So it would be some kind of like spiritual voyeurism, to spiritual nudism, to look at it and try to see what everybody else is doing. And just feeling a lot like people like. Competing with each other who had the best experience. And looking at the other one and saying, oh, he had that, he saw that, I didn’t saw, see that?

And like seeing that create, expectations on people because they would hear other people sharing and then they wanna feel that, and then they’re treating ayahuasca like it was some kind of jukebox that he put a coin and a, a music spits out and sometimes it doesn’t work and it’s not like that.

So I’ve struggled with integration. I’ve also struggled with learning, understanding what people say in English, like the next day of a ceremony, feeling like tired, didn’t sleep well, and have to sit in this circle for hours to listen what people have to say. But I also try to keep a open mind, and I know a lot of people like that and need that and feel for them.

It’s so incredibly like wild and novel and a lot of people also just like a lot of awareness around like therapeutic basic processes to see, oh, I’m feeling this, and then interrogate inquiry. Oh, why am I feeling that? What does this come from? And just be so immediately touched by your own feeling that you don’t, realize that this comes from other things.

Like just seeing people discover basic things about therapy and self-knowledge through their ayahuasca experiences or thinking about eating, what are they putting in the bodies? So I think a lot of these retreats have a lot of are important for people and I can understand the value.

And so I think by this answer I’m saying like, different people need different things. And for me, some of the integration stuff has raised my more critical intellectual mind and I don’t like it very much. So you ask me how do I feel, integrating different aspects. What I’m looking when I go to an ayahuasca retreat is not like talking about ayahuasca and integration and this self-reflection.

I’m looking for a silence in my mind, not talking about it. It’s true that I read a book, so it’s complicated. There’s a lot of angles, I can always tell you that particularly this thing of I have felt anxiety when I was forced to integrate and talk. Because then I start to be in the experience thinking about what I wanna say the next day.

Oh, this is a good thing I could quote. Tomorrow and then create this weird eco inside your head when I like more, to pay attention to the music. Anyway, was that very confusing?

Sam Believ: No, it was a great answer. You definitely want to lower the place, touch lots of topics that I myself would wanna talk about.

Like definitely the business of Ayahuasca is is is a friend of mine who, he’s a marketing expert and he works in lots of businesses. He said this is the most difficult business model out there. It’s just too complex. I think people do it, they definitely do it coming from the place of a bit of zealously, this is amazing, and they can save the world and they get very motivated and that’s kinda what happened to myself.

The word circles. Yeah. We do word circles, but we kinda limit the time to three minutes per person, so it doesn’t get too, there’s not too much of this spiritual exhibitionism as you talk about look at me. But it does tend to create connection between people and helps them memorize the experience they went through by talking about it.

It goes from short term memory to long-term memory, and then builds the connection between the group and the people that having a similar experience. They start supporting each other. So there’s but I can also see, I’ve definitely, I even noticed myself sometimes in the ceremony like, wow, this is great.

I’m going to share about this tomorrow. So it’s inevitable. I think for, even without word circles, people tend to think this way because they, they do wanna talk about, and yeah, the danger of charismatic leaders as well. I’ve had facilitators that. Did that, they tried to get all the attention that they tried to be the person, or, some shamans are like this as well.

So that, that’s something I’m acutely conscious of, and I try to actively avoid that. It’s not about one any given person. It’s just about you and the medicine. Even myself as a founder I’m not that involved. So people can’t, some people do still like, think oh my God you’re so great.

You did this for me. But I try to avoid this because I think for me personally, it’s actually not comfortable to be like somebody, grabs you by the hands and they thank you. For me it’s difficult for me. It’s easier to receive criticism. But let’s talk about Jauna.

You mentioned Jauna it’s your organization. I’ve heard lots of great things about it. Tell people, what is it about, how was it born and. How can they, why and how can they support you as well? Maybe some people that are listening would like to do that.

Bia Labate: Yeah. Thank you. Una is a 5 0 1 C3 nonprofit organization based in Northern California with strong ties to Mexico and Brazil.

So we have a very diverse team. A lot of Mexicans, Brazilians, and Young Gen Z Americans, some new team members in Europe as well. We produce like mainly public education and we have different programs. One we called the Indigenous Response Initiative of the Americas, that we give small grants like s Money to 12 different organizations throughout the Americas.

The criteria to join that is that it’s like indigenous led and has like a track record of. Know actions and it’s collective led, and it’s also grassroots and not already, like on the circuit of big philanthropic dollars. And that is a really cool project. We’re trying to keep our donations completely unconditional of them, sending us decks or marketing materials and keep the bureaucracy very low.

So trying to do what we call decolonizing philanthropy, supporting soverty self-determination, the projects and the leaders on their own terms. And then we have two, the program, psychedelic Justice, which we, it’s mainly empowering voices of people of color. So indigenous, black L-G-B-T-Q, queer immigrants, women.

And so platforming giving visibility, in conferences, in publications. So that’s like our stars in our conferences. And we have produced different materials as well. We have our book Psychedelic Justice. We have women in psychedelics, we have queering psychedelics. We did a big work on the intersection of the queer movement with the psychedelic movement.

Were very influential in like bringing this together and created the two conferences called Queer and Psychedelics, and then a big publication around it. And also a lot of materials around racial justice, trying to teach like white people to self-reflect about whiteness and how to be a better ally And social justice questions.

And the other program we call Protection of Sacred Plants and Cultural Traditions, and we’re trying to create critical conversations and awareness around the globalization of. Things like ayahuasca, peyote, mushrooms and the expansion. Teach people about their religious rights. We have a important resource called the Guidelines for Religious Freedom Restoration Act, and Best Practices.

We also have a few workshops and courses for psychedelic churches trying to help people self-organize and have accountability and peer-to-peer dialogues and awareness around topics like conservation and reciprocity extraction, cultural appropriation. So creating a lot of critical conversations and what we call legal harm reduction.

So we have, it’s a lot of years and many different fronts. We have a lot of volunteers. We have a program of interns. We have a membership program. We have a fiscal sponsorship program. We have. Original books and publications from peer review to like online articles that are shorter and for a wider audience.

RIN is a big network. We have Op Operated started organically as a blog to publish articles from academics in more accessible formats, and it grew into different programs. So had a lot of influence of social justice movement in the US California particularly. And yeah, we’re very enthusiastic.

We have an annual conference called Psychedelic Culture. I would like to invite everybody to come. We’re gonna do it for the first time during bicycle day in the Bay Area next year. And we have a certificate on ethics, reciprocity, and ceremony. Or the name is Ceremony, ethics and Reciprocity. We’re working on.

A training for religious professionals. Right now for clergy, like a psychedelics 1 0 1, we’re creating a new book on psychedelic humanities, and we have also a new book on indigenous voices. I can go on forever. We have a lot of different programs. It’s a big school, it’s an incubator of ideas, people, new generations, leaders, thought leaders.

It’s a community based, it’s a mix between community, media and university. In between. It’s not as hermetic and hard to get as universities, but not as like loose. And with lack of expertise as just like any other community member self invented organization. We have a lot of people, experts and.

People with a strong history in the field. We have four different websites. We have a branch, Toch, Latin America, that will publish articles in Portuguese and Spanish. So we try to give back and, be connected to our roots. As a Brazilian who lived and worked many years in Mexico, I have both ties, strong ties to both countries, and we have the psychedelic justice, the psychedelic culture website, the Chana website, and the indigenous reciprocity website.

We also have different Instagrams for all of those. And just keeping afloat is a a huge task keeping existing on all of these different fronts. We have a network of about 80 people but employees. Employees, very little. It’s a lot of volunteer work.

Sam Believ: I can imagine how difficult it is. And it’s very important the work you’re doing.

So thank you so much for it. It’s someone has to have those conversations because normally we just try to avoid them. And like I know what bicycle day is, and I think most people do. But what is the date, specific date for bicycle day?

Bia Labate: I think the conference is gonna be 17 to 19, and I believe that bicycle day is on the 19th, the day that Albert Hoffman experienced LSD on a bike ride.

Charan is more related to plant medicines, sacred plants, or there’s different ways to call it. Not all of us don’t love the word psychedelics necessarily, but we are part of this larger spectrum of the psychedelic ecosystem. We are the ones advocating for indigenous voices, voices from the global south for anthropology and social sciences for more holistic ways of learning and knowing.

And that’s at the core of what we do.

Sam Believ: So April 17th to April 19th, just to clarify one of the topics you work on explore is women and psychedelics and there is this like how do you balance women’s rights and making women feel comfortable in a ceremony and sort of the indigenous tradition approach, especially around the time where women have their period.

’cause it’s seems pretty universally very difficult to navigate. Like we have our ways we do it and it’s works and we’re very democratic when it comes to that. But I don’t know if much about it or something you can share. ’cause sh you should probably know more than anyone ’cause you wrote a book about it.

So yeah, let’s talk about this topic. If you can.

Bia Labate: The book woman in psychedelics is recognizing different indigenous indigenous, non-indigenous researchers are not researchers like women as leaders. And we’re trying to give visibility. If you think historically and this is an example I draw from my dear friend and colleague who’s also co-editor of this book, Erica Duke, Dr.

Erica Duke. Historically, women would participate in think about the early research in the fifties, sixties, seventies, on the psychedelic research that women would sit. Together with their husbands. And they would help the husband create a protocol. They would help cleaning, they would help setting up the space.

They would help comforting and talking to the people. They would help the husband who’s afraid to participate. They would help the folks follow up, integrating the experience of everybody, the manuscript, manuscript writing, like they had all this presence, but their name was not on the paper. So there’s all these figures or we talk about Albert Hoffman, but we don’t talk about his assistant that also was the first woman to try LSD.

So it’s trying to give voice to this invisible. Leaders and a lot of men that go on heroic journeys had women sitting for them, taking care of them. Like this people of color, the brown people, women, people that are taking care are in the vaccines that are invisible. It’s like the big heroic guy that climbs the Himalayas, but the locals that carry his bags, they are not, figured in National Geographic as the leaders who conquered, but they’re going up and down every day, and so it’s a bit that spirit. There’s all this people behind the great deeds that we don’t we don’t see. And we, Chana, I have a wife, I’m queer woman. We are led by women and we like to pay attention to women’s leadership. And we did this book first in Spanish and it was even harder to try this.

Find his voices in Latin American places like Peru, Columbia. Brazil, what are the women leaders, both in plant medicine and psychedelics. But this is not to say there aren’t women doing important work on all areas from and it’s not just women related areas like giving birth or helping to die or helping to take care, but other kinds of leadership and why don’t we know them?

They exist. So this book is trying to elevate that and I don’t see any I don’t see much of a contradiction or tension with the topic of women not being able to sit in ceremonies when they are having their period. I think I see it as an anthropologist that’s part of cultural traditions and have cultural like reasonings.

I don’t think it’s I personally don’t see as just like an oppressive. Branch of patriarchy, and I think there’s a lot of reductionism in just projecting our values to other cultures. If you understand the logic behind those prohibitions, it’s part of a larger whole that has you know, a lot of aspects like this economy between men and spirits with this, all these exchanges and shamanism being this source of mediation between realms.

So there’s a lot of taboo, so to speak, related to hunting or ways to debone the game and what species are you allowed to hunt and what is how many, different animals. Are you allowed to take? And what are the correct ways to taking them down? And the logic of this economy of exchange between us animals, the ancestors, the invisible world.

And one of the things that are said is that like spirits don’t, like maybe this the smell of dead blood. They like perfumes and there’s a way to seduce them to talk to them. There’s all these other explanations, these logics of exchange, of donation, of reciprocity with this set of web web of life that are like the native explanations for this prohibitions that have to do with the same idea of the diets of creating this dialogues, this with the, world of the.

Species, the plant species, learning how to incorporate that knowledge, that sentiment being that plant that has an agency, that has intentionality, that is alive, that is a being that is ultimately like a human, like you, that has a culture, that has, a personality, has an understanding, losing your humanity and being in dialogue with this plants and letting them sit on you and teach you and following the tests, the prescriptions, the different periods and trying to be more open and sensitive to things like dreaming and, just deeper forms of knowledge, embodied forms of knowledge that this traditions take that I don’t think is just.

Saying men want to oppress women, and yet, yes, perhaps there are some social complications. And there are, there has been also processes of women from different indigenous communities that were not allowed to take diets and that have fought their rights. And they are leaders of diets right now.

And our big leaderships, men wanted to be protective of women and were con, worried about women being able to take care of children and didn’t want to force them to go through this difficult experiences. But women have also advocated for their rights and have changed traditions. So there’s a lot of ways to look into it.

And it’s a big complicated topic. I think the best way to go about it is if you’re going to a certain tradition, try to get informed and try to talk and ask the rationale. And listen and pay attention and not just bring your own ideas, to the mix.

Sam Believ: Yeah. Thank you for this explanation. I agree with this as well.

We, we have to like, find the balance, but we can’t just come to a tradition and only take the things we like and reject the things we don’t like. And it comes in a package. And then from the, in the spirit of you saying, there’s women behind all the men doing cool things. Yeah, my wife is a co-founder of the of the Wire and she, we have crickets together and we started from the beginning, it was just me, her, and the shaman.

That’s it. And we did everything from cooking, cleaning, to washing buckets and, definitely would not be possible without her. But she’s definitely not in hiding every group that comes, they meet her and she’s still in charge of everything, all the hospitality related stuff of the running, the retreat.

So she’s not listening to this podcast because she doesn’t really speak English, but I keep telling her to listen because I mention her a lot. So if you’re listening, I love you. One last question, which is really interesting for me because in one of the interviews that I’ve heard of you in preparation for this podcast, you said that there’s some reason to believe that Ayahuasca originally comes from Columbia and Amazon.

Like where can I find more about it? Like, where did you find about it and, where, like how did they manage to figure that out?

Bia Labate: There’s a large discussion about this. It’s not something set in stone and it’s also a little bit controversial. I think maybe you could try to have some indigenous speaker come to your podcast.

And it’s been more and more those of us that are studying this topics are learning that indigenous people want to have they don’t need the voice of anthropologists. And we’re happy to continue to be allies and support our indigenous partners and friends. But I think it would be good to get also, like indigenous speakers on your podcast.

So I’m just gonna suggest that you find an indigenous scholar and speaker and invite with the same questions. There’s different theories and it’s a kind of controversial topic and I’m perhaps, I’m just gonna leave it like that. Okay.

Sam Believ: Anyone specifically you wanna recommend that interview on the topic?

Somebody indigenous.

Bia Labate: We can talk more offline, but we have a bunch of resources in Chaa too, recommending different people of color. We have a page, people of color. We have another one psychedelic indigenous voices in the psychedelic Renaissance. I think that’s, I would even ask you why you’re interviewing your own local healers.

Sam Believ: We have I have a podcast with my shaman. I think it’s about 10 episodes ago. But I don’t think he knows those things. I asked him like, he knows the story of creation of ayahuasca. Like they all have their own story. But that, that’s from, that’s, I would like to hear that answer from the anthropologist, but

Bia Labate: But that’s the exactly the problem.

Like what is the timeline? Are we talking about stories of creation? Are we talking about like you found a ceramic pot in the Amazon with which date? What is the science that we’re listening to? That’s the challenge because the immemorial narratives, they don’t match necessarily what’s, are we gonna consider like Richard Spruce who named Ayahuasca or, you know what I’m saying?

There’s different stories. And this question became political of different epistemologist, different timelines.

Sam Believ: Let’s assume we don’t really know, but yeah. It comes from Amazon. That’s let’s settle at that. But yeah, I’ve heard you

Bia Labate: the UDV says that it was from King Solomon.

So they have their own original myth, which they don’t think is a myth. They think it’s a historical timeline.

Sam Believ: King Coleman, like from Israel as in maybe using their own plants like mimosa and something like that.

Where do they get the V from if it doesn’t grow there?

Bia Labate: That’s you go into the story of them, they have their own narrative. But yes, I agree with you. It comes from the Amazon and it’s also spread, all over, you have plantations now in, in places like Puerto Rico or. Maybe a bit of Florida, Hawaii, have different people studying the DNA, trying to figure out how it migrated one place to another.

Sam Believ: It’s really cool. The Hawaiian Aya Astoria, I interviewed Dennis McKenna maybe a month ago, a bit less. And it’s, it is basically was I believe it was his brother that brought the ayahuasca from Peru to Hawaii and now it’s spread all over. It’s it’s crazy how one person’s actions today can change the world 20 years from now.

Bia Labate: It’s a variation of what I was saying. We’re all witnesses of this expansion. When I was telling you my timeline, what I did in my masters, what I did, my PhD, this work in Una, it’s all different phases of the Ayahuasca movement. I’m friends with Kat Harrison. She went to the Amazon in 1976.

She is ex-wife of, terence McKenna, who’s passed, she was there in 1976. That was on Google. I was five years old. And yes, Terence and Dennis brought Ayahuasca back and they planted. And Ayahuasca is a plague, if you will, in a more like strictly ecological terms in the island because it’s a species from the outside and it grows very fast and it’s taken over.

It’s very interesting because, it grows very fast. It’s a kind of really vitamin land that it has a lot of properties and it grows fast and it takes over. And also a lot of people have land and they can grow their own ayahuasca. In their backyards. So it’s a very interesting scenario where you have a lot of different people growing ayahuasca everywhere, and you have a whole economy of ayahuasca being brewed in Hawaii and shipped internally to the US because it doesn’t pass immigration.

So there’s less risks of it being caught. And so there’s this whole economy of people creating planting, ayahuasca, harvesting and cooking and spreading it and going to other islands. Also, Australia has a lot of ayahuasca plantations. It’s a global phenomenon at this point.

Sam Believ: It’s a plague, but it’s a beautiful plague.

And yeah, because in Amazon, the soil is very infertile. It’s very hard. So it’s a plant that’s used to less nutrients. And then you. Spring it somewhere where there’s lots of nutrients and hot weather and it probably grows very quickly. But yeah, when I heard you mention in Columbia that Ayahuasca might come from Columbia and Amazon, I just felt really good because I’m on the, a bit of a mission where when I first learned about Iowasca, I thought it’s something you do in Peru.

And then I was already living in Columbia back then or being here for a long time and it was completely unknown. So I’m trying to sorta spread the word and educate people that Ayahuasca is from Columbia and it’s actually very traditional and it’s absolutely much more traditional than Costa Rica, which doesn’t really have anything to do with Ayahuasca traditionally.

And that Richard Ulti came here to to do his research and, dennis Dennis and Terrance, they came here looking for this other plat medicine as well. And then Narcos happened and it dero it and arose that part of the history. So when you said that I got excited and I Googled it and apparently there is definitely a discourse about that.

I am a little bit emotionally invested because I just hope to prove that Ayahuasca is in Columbia as well. And our website is still active.

Bia Labate: But it is in Columbia, you don’t have to prove that it, so you have, have different indigenous rights that are considered part of cultural patrimony in Colombia.

It’s also the constitution in Colombia has, is really one of the most advanced in the matter of indigenous voices and recognizing a bit some. Rights to nature and, autonomy of indigenous people, you’ll have different recognitions of ayahuasca in the health system. It is deeply IBI in the culture of Columbia.

It’s very strongly documented. And I have a colleague I just talking to her, she’s working the, like national history and anthropology or archeology patrimony department in Columbia. And we were just talking, there’s a whole reality that I don’t know who you’re hanging out with, but in my book, nobody’s questioning that Ayahuasca is deeply, part of Colombian life.

And I think maybe you’re just like influenced by, English speaking guests that don’t have knowledge. Because in, in the world that I hang on anthropologists and lovers of this kinds of things, we all know about this. It’s. I think we lack, we lack pride, frankly. And that’s a common Latin countries.

It’s still stigmatized. That’s the thing. It’s still seen as a, not a part of culture, but it’s on foundation. And think about like Mexico. It’s built, it’s an civilization builds with sacred plants, different psychedelics, if you will. Foundational, tobacco is across all the Americas.

It is part of our culture in deep sense. All of this plants about, and the stories, the myths of origin that tell how the van came to be are frequently inter winged with the story of creations of these plants and these immemorial times where, you know. Maybe there wasn’t this distinction that exists between an animals and men, or, things like rivers and mountains.

And so there’s another way to tell the story, the stories that we tell ourselves. Chana is trying to give visibility to this narratives and to the storytelling and retell the stories that we tell about ourselves, about the psychedelic movement or the psychedelic space, or what is psychedelic healing.

Putting these voices in the forefront, putting this time of this type of knowledge in the forefront. And it’s a rich universe. As rich as the experiences itself, the culture, the traditional knowledge associated to it.

Sam Believ: That’s important work to be done. And what you mentioned about Colombian indigenous people, I, yesterday I had a meeting with the mayor of a nearby town, and then we visited an indigenous community called AMI. They traditionally used to work with mushrooms, not with ayahuasca. The tradition got lost.

Now they’re re rediscovering it, and they, there was the government just bought a big piece of land in that sio where they’re gonna do another, has gudo indigenous reserve for some displaced families. So it’s definitely very active and very real here. Which is really cool and I would love for you to connect me with with that Colombian person that does that.

So it’s really exciting for me. Bea Bea, we’ve been going for a bit more than an hour, which is not what I promised you. Let’s start wrapping up. Anything else you wanna talk about or maybe mention where people can find more about you, your favorite book you publish, they should read, or anything like that?

Bia Labate: You can follow me in lab at Instagram. I’m also on LinkedIn and have our sites and psychedelic culture, indigenous reciprocity, charan, Latin America, encourage people to become a monthly member. We have lots of perks and we’re really nice community. We also have our internship program.

We have a few positions open. We’re always looking for donations to make our work sustainable. And we also ask for donations for our indigenous response to program. I invite everybody to come to our conference. We launch like a really nice newsletter that comes on and off, and I have my own website.net and it’s a real pleasure to be here.

Thank you everybody for listening, and thank you for inviting me and yeah, sending much love. Pick hug from San Francisco.

Sam Believ: Thank you bm. Guys, you were listening to our podcast. As always, we did the host, Sam, and I will see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you’d like to support us and psychedelic renaissance at large, please follow us and leave us a like wherever it is you’re listening.

Share this episode with someone who will benefit from this information. Nothing in this podcast is intended as medical advice, and it is for educational and entertainment purposes only. This episode is sponsored by Lara Ayahuasca Retreat. At Lara, we buy affordability, accessibility, and authenticity. The Yra Connect, heal, grow.

Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you

the.

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with Marc Aixalà, a Barcelona-based psychologist, psychotherapist, and former engineer who has become a leading figure in psychedelic integration. Marc is trained in integrative and strategic therapy, is a certified holotropic breathwork facilitator, has worked on MDMA and psilocybin clinical trials, collaborates with ICEERS, and authored Psychedelic Integration (Synergetic Press).

We touch upon topics of:

• Marc’s path from engineer to psychologist (01:01–02:57)
• How he defines integration & why definitions fall short (03:25–05:40)
• Marc’s metaphors for integration (puzzle pieces, astronaut, developing photos) (05:40–08:40)
• Sam’s grocery-shopping metaphor & Marc’s response (08:45–10:49)
• Two types of integration: crisis vs. growth (10:49–13:55)
• Seven categories of difficult experiences (13:55–17:10)
• Preventing harm through preparation & facilitation quality (17:10–18:46)
• Dose management and psycholytic vs. high-dose models (21:26–26:23)
• Self-inflicted overdosing & patient expectations (26:23–27:51)
• Positive/growth integration & the importance of immediate rest (27:51–30:33)
• Long-term integration: outer behavior vs. inner insight (30:33–32:13)
• Seven dimensions of integration (spiritual, cognitive, emotional, physical, behavioral, social, time) (32:13–35:33)
• Avoiding extremes: materialism vs. magical thinking (35:33–36:52)
• Why people resist integration & who should be concerned (36:52–39:53)
• Overuse of psychedelics and the risks of “more is better” (45:01–48:33)
• Spiritual bypassing & misunderstanding ‘light only’ approaches (48:33–52:10)
• Indigenous approaches vs. Western integration culture (53:08–56:25)

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to http://www.lawayra.com

Find more about Marc Aixalà at:
Instagram: @marcaixala
ICEERS Training & Integration Programs: https://www.iceers.org
Book: Psychedelic Integration (Synergetic Press)

Transcript

Sam Believ: You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast.com.

Marc Aixalà: Yeah. Spiritual bypassing is usually understood as using spiritual content or spiritual experiences to divert our attention from painful more ordinary aspects. Yeah. So somebody that has, I know a lot of issues with social or interpersonal relationships.

But somehow marriage is to avoid the pain of these because they’re having spiritual experiences. Yeah. So that the light of these spiritual experiences somehow makes it easier to forget the suffering that we have, as if we could only, or we should heal or we should improve by focusing only in the light and not focusing on the pain that our ordinary lives bring.

Which is sometimes a line that certain schools have approached certain, even Buddhist meditation schools, they say no keep meditating. This is part of the veil. You need to transcend that you’re suffering is do not get attached to your suffering. Your joy do get not attached to the church.

Just keep pushing through the oneness. Yeah. Through this. That most of the times, for most of us life is not that easy to take. Only in that dimension. We have families, we have jobs, we have parents, we have friends. We need to also live in this, in dual reality. Yeah. Then when we are trying to use.

Psychedelic experiences to avoid those conflicts, to avoid those feelings, to avoid those difficulties. I think that’s when we are doing a harmful spiritual bypass, because in the end, we’re not having a real spiritual experience because we are just putting something aside. We’re not having a. Whole experience.

We’re choosing just to focus on one side of the spectrum, but why should be sadness less spiritual than ecstasy? There’s a whole universe that I can think of how spiritual can be to contact with your own sadness and to see the reality of sadness in your life and doing something about it.

Sam Believ: Hi guys, and welcome to Ayahuasca podcast, as always with you, the host, Samie. Today I’m having a conversation with Mark Alala. Mark is a Barcelona based psychologist and psychotherapist with a background in telecommunication engineering who has become a leading figure in the field of psychedelic integration and non-ordinary states of consciousness.

He holds advanced training and integrative and strategic therapy and is a certified facilitator of. Teleo Tropic breath work. He has worked with clinical trials using MDMA for PTSD and psilocybin for treatment resistant depression. He collaborates with the International Center for Athena Botanical Education Research and Service.

I seers his book, psychedelic Integration Psychotherapy for Non-Ordinary States of Consciousness, consolidates his years of experience helping people integrate expanded states of awareness. This episode is sponsored by Lara Ayahuasca Retreat at Lara, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity.

Lara Connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you. Mark, welcome to the show.

Marc Aixalà: Thank you, Sam. A pleasure to be here.

Sam Believ: As I was telling you earlier, I learned about your work because one of our volunteers was reading your book and it was, it’s a big book, on topic of integration.

Interest me a lot. And then I’ve heard about the courses that you provide in. I ended up talking with one of your team members as well here in the podcast. Mark, let’s start by talking about your past and like how your life brought you to this line of work. ’cause I used to be an engineer as well.

I was a marine mechanical engineer and now around this ayahuasca healing center. So how was that story for you?

Marc Aixalà: So I guess that, not that different from yours, but yeah, I was an engineer. I studied engineering at university and I have to say that even during those years of study at the university, I had some experiences with states, expanded states, northern United States.

And that showed me a world that I had not known before and that became some sort of an interest slash obsession. So even as I was becoming an engineer something entitled me. I knew that was not really my path. And eventually, after a couple of years of working as an engineer, I clearly saw that I would never be a very good engineer and that my heart and my passion was elsewhere.

And that brought me to go back to university study psychology, become a certified tropic brother practitioner, and start trying to find a career around non the United States of consciousness supporting people during, before and after experiences in expanded states. Yeah, that was a long journey from an engineer to psychologist.

It took whole transformation about, I don’t know, probably six years or so. So it was a slow process, but it ended up being a really powerful one, and that’s why we’re talking today.

Sam Believ: Yeah. I think engineering is a good foundation for many things because healing is body is an body is like a mechanism as well.

So if you’re, if you kinda understand those concepts, you can be very step by step. And I think it’s it might be a good influence on, as opposed to just psychology by itself. So I’m happy that I have this engineering mindset and it’s useful even in this line of work. You you obviously are an expert in in integration and you you dedicated lots of time to it.

So integration is one of those topics that’s kinda has many different definitions. So I’d like to hear yours. What is integration for you?

Marc Aixalà: Yeah. So the way that I usually approach that question is by not answering this question. I think that defining integration can run into some reductionist bias, and as we give one, just one definition, we are skipping, we’re keeping some things out of the picture, which could be important as well.

I think that maybe the only thing that we can agree on about integration is that integration is what we do after the experience. Yeah. Or integration starts. As the experience finishes, then the practices that are involved in integration can vary from practitioner to practitioner, person to person, or experience to experience.

So the way that I’ve tried to define and explain integration is through a way that could be somehow expanding and providing different angles of what integration entails. That’s why most of the times I start defining integration through different metaphors. And a big chunk of my, my book in which I summarized my understanding on integration is talking about different metaphors like growing trees, developing a picture seeing things from different angles, planting seeds, so integration cannot be captured by a single definition. Different experiences will be integrated in different ways. For some experiences, we will need a conscious effort. Sometimes even with support from somebody else, sometimes integration can happen in a very natural, spontaneous, and effortless way.

I think it’s more helpful to understand how broad can be integration in order to facilitate integration. If we get stuck with very rich definitions of what it should be. I think that we’re missing the point that we’re not doing a favor to those in need of integration.

Sam Believ: So you mentioned that you have 11 metaphors for describing integration.

I’m not sure if you know all of them by roads, but maybe you can tell us the ones or your favorite ones.

Marc Aixalà: Yeah, I think that this has changed since I published the book. I have added some more, and depending on the class or lecture or talk that I’m giving, I focus more on some or others.

But definitely there’s some classic metaphors that are like highlights. One would be the pieces of the puzzle, how, psychedelic experiences. Experiences in non United States can be like new pieces of the puzzle. They provide new information and then integration could be like trying to put that piece into the existing framework and try to see where this piece fits.

Sometimes it’ll fit right away. Sometimes we’ll spend a lot of time trying to make it fit. Sometimes we need to work with the piece. We need to, I don’t know, turn it around, look at it, maybe polish it or whatever. In order for it to fit into existing framework. And sometimes we will need to work with a framework what is already been assembled.

We need to maybe readjust that so new pieces will fit. Yeah, so that would be a classic metaphor for integration. Another one that I use very often and that captures a different aspect of integration would be an astronaut coming back from these space travels back into the mothership. I’m sure that you’ve seen these movies that they go with all these space suits and then they go back to the ship.

They close the doors and it becomes pressurized again, like all the air coming in and the sounds coming in again, and the effort of taking the suit and all that, like this transitioning space from expanded realities into ordinary reality. That time, that space can also be considered a space of integration.

And that’s extremely important to make a safe and good landing. Yeah. So that could be another metaphor and then one that I’m playing a lot with lately is developing pictures like old school analog photography in which you went holidays with only a 24 picture role. And you would take some pictures and then the process of developing those pictures were was when the pictures actually came alive.

And there’s a lot of art in the developing. Process. One had to do it in specific conditions with red light, with specific chemicals. You have to choose the frame that you want to develop, how much you zoom into this. So there was an art team choosing what I’m going to be developing from that negative, from that picture that I took.

Yeah. So this could be three metaphors, then planting seeds, growing trees, for example, or organizing information in a coherent way, ordering the information. Usually I like to talk about it more visually. So when I teach about these in my trainings, I present images because I think that they capture much more of the power of these metaphors and just talking about the metaphors.

That’s the beauty about metaphors, that one doesn’t have to speak much about them, for people to really see the depths of them.

Sam Believ: Thank you for sharing those. I’m I’m a man of metaphors and analogies myself. I would like to share with you the ones that, that I came up with. One is.

What for integration specifically is when you go to have a psychedelic experience, let’s say you go to an Ayahuasca retreat, you have one week retreat and you it’s like going grocery shopping. It’s like you, you bring all of this information out, it’s on your countertop of your kitchen, all the vegetables and meat and dairy products.

Everything is it’s right there. So integration is taking it and putting it in the fridge or cooking some and processing it and putting it where it belongs. And the way I like to describe is if you don’t do anything, you basically, it will just get wasted and then rott.

But in reality it’s just just gonna disappear. So that, that fresh information and all this knowledge it’s right there, right now and it can be worked with and can be processed into something beautiful. But if you don’t do anything, it just. Fades away. That’s an analogy. What do you think about that one?

Marc Aixalà: Yeah, I think it’s a really a point that many times we don’t do anything with all the information that we’ve been given, all the experiences we have been given, they have a natural tendency to fade away. That’s part of the psychedelic experience. That’s just the way it is, so it’s not just by having had the experience that we embody those learnings Many times we need to act on that.

We need to do something, we need to pay attention to these afterwards moments. Sometimes it could be a matter of days, sometimes we’ll be weeks, months, sometimes years. Yeah. But I think that the more we concentrate and we focus on providing that time and space for integration, the more fruitful our experiences can become.

Yeah. Like food. If you don’t store it then you waste the food and all the fantastic recipes that could come up with those grocery shopping that you did, it’ll never exist,

Sam Believ: very wasteful. That’s just how it feels sometimes. But when I, as I was getting ready for this interview I’ll, I thought about the concept of, obviously integrating difficult experiences and I know you focus a lot on that and also integrating beautiful and light and easy experiences.

And it’s I almost think that we should come up with two different names because it’s a two different, two very different processes. I don’t know, may, maybe there already is a, is some kind of distinction and are different names. So before I continue can you, is there any abbreviations or anything that, that distinguishes the two?

Marc Aixalà: I dunno if there’s any specific names, but that’s definitely something that I have been noticing for a long time as well. And when I started doing integration work, it became very clear that these. Two very distinct aspects of integration working for maximizing the benefits as I call this, or dealing with adverse reactions or dealing with challenging experiences.

I think that these are two different courses of integration. Many times the interventions, the things that we can do in one scenario will not work for the other scenario. Yeah. When we have had a beautiful, easy experience, it’s usually easier to integrate with our own tools like journaling, painting, whatever.

Yeah. So this natural and classic integration tools that we use, these are something that will be useful and we will help us to integrate experience. But when we have had a difficult experience and we’re struggling with symptoms, ruminations strong emotions or whatever, those things might do something, but they will not solve the situation.

So for me, these are two different integrations. We could still put them under the same label of integration. But I think that even the professional or the person that can do or can support that process many times are different professionals. Yeah. Because when we’re dealing with difficult reactions, many times we need interventions that are more similar to therapy or therapeutic interventions.

And I don’t think that you need to be a therapist to facilitate integration when things have gone in a positive direction, so I do make that distinction as well. And that’s I would say like the second de second definition of integration. No, we have the metaphor, but then we have these scenarios and needs.

What are we working for to maximize some positive experiences or to deal with some difficult reactions that people have experienced.

Sam Believ: Yeah. Like one is like crisis integration and the other one is like growth integration and, with the kitchen analogies. Like one is you coming back to a kitchen full of groceries and the other, you’re coming back and your kitchen is on fire and you need to do something urgently.

But I always feel like there should be a different word, but I’m not nothing’s coming up for me right now, but let’s talk about those difficult integrations You have you have seven, seven different types of difficult experiences. Can you talk to us about that?

Marc Aixalà: Yeah. This is some attempt that I did back in the day to understand what people were needing.

So the place which this came from was not just my intellectual sort of thinking about integration. It came through observing the cases that I was working with in the ICR integration and support service. This is a free service that we’ve been providing for. 12 years or so, or 13 in which people could contact us and we would do integration support for those in need.

Usually when somebody contacts you to do integration work, it’s ’cause they perceive that there is a problem that they’re dealing with. Usually people don’t contact you so much to say how beautiful their ask experiences were. They contact you when things have gone wrong. Yeah. So after some years of working with people, I started trying to document to get some sort of data to understand what kind of requests people had, what sort of problems they were experiencing more often.

And that is how I came to this classification of the different problematic in integration. This is not meant to be a diagnosis criteria, but it’s meant to help integration practitioners understand what can have been the cause or the problem that has originated the challenges in integration.

Also how it manifests, and then how to support these different nuanced situations. So they go from. More general situation of lack of preparation when somebody has gone into the experience with not enough preparation and then things go south, not because there was anything problematic, but because the person was not ready enough in whatever sense to deal with what could come up.

Then we have experiences, what I call unresolved experiences. When something opens up in your experience in your journey and you’re not able to process that due to lack of trust due to the intensity of experience. And that is like a door that remains open reminding you of the content of experience in your daily life.

Yeah. Then we have interactions with shaman or facilitators or therapists and harm can come also from that interaction or when people have memories that emerge, that they seem to be traumatic memories, that they had repressed what to do with that. That they real, are they not real? Yeah. That are very common sort of problems.

Integration as well, or. When we have people that overdo, so to speak, the healing practices. They drink medicine too often or they do too many techniques, too many experiences, and then they up end up more yeah, they lose ground. Yeah. They end up in more theory sort of spaces and their life is not improving rather the opposite.

Yeah. So they seem to be less and less in touch with their daily reality. So these are some of the more common integration scenarios that I was observing as I was supporting people. So I tried to somehow formalize and summarize them so we could talk about that in more depth and with more detail and hopefully find ways to support these particular needs.

Sam Believ: Yeah, I’m familiar with many of these cases and a lot of them, as you described them, they almost feel more than half of them can be, almost completely. Removed by just good organization of the retreat or good facilitation. It’s like when I tell people when I first want to drink ayahuasca, like right now, people that come to our retreat, they go through a three hour course, and then they, they fill out the questionnaires and it’s a process.

But and then there’s still workshops when they arrive. When I first went to drink ayahuasca here in Columbia, it’s like you just, you come in and here’s your cup and good luck. It’s if you don’t know anything or if you’re taking any medicines or nobody knows, nobody cares. It’s just so a lot can be avoided.

And I think that there’s there’s some difficult experiences that you described there. I think you could separate them into. Forms, which is like productive ones and unproductive ones for example, an unresolved difficult experience. Or they can be terrifying, like a very common one.

People remembering that they’ve been sexually abused. I still think is much better to find it than to just let it be there and poison your life. So I, I don’t know if you wanna talk about this which if, some difficult experiences can be necessary w whilst others are, basically a side effect.

Marc Aixalà: Yeah, that’s a good point. And in, in my way of working, I have not taken these stance that much in the sense of consider what would be useful or good or not. I’ve been more pragmatic in the sense like, somebody’s coming. With a problem after use of bio, ask for psychedelics and they need some sort of relief.

They need to feel that they can go back to where they were before, so to speak. Like something bad has happened to me, helped me be as I was before this experience. But I do agree with you that there are experiences that, although challenging, they come with potential growth. Yeah. So as you were saying, an unresolved, difficult experience, something that has opened up and I have not been able to deal with probably if I am able to deal with, I’m not only as I was before this, but I am stronger or I am more complete or I am closer to my truth after having been able to confront that, to go into that experience and go through that experience.

And some experiences, as you say, this could be like a side effect or traumatic event that has happened that could have been prevented. I dunno, an abuse that had hap happened in a therapeutic setting or an abuse by a child or facilitator or a therapist. Even if you can grow and end up somehow stronger, I will never say no that this was for the good.

Yeah. So these things should be avoided. They should not happen. And same thing as when people have really intense experiences, what I call in my definition of these profiles, the very traumatic experience with dissociation with can look like a psychotic break. I think that many times, although this can be not permanently harmful, I don’t think that a lot of good comes from this.

No. So people can recover, people can go back to who they were before and yeah, have suffered no consequences from them. But most of the time I wouldn’t say that there’s been a learning or a growth or something of value after having overcome this experience. So definitely when we. Open ourselves to work in United of Consciousness.

We need to know that things can be hard, that we can be confronted with difficulties with hard experiences, and that is part of the process, that a normal part of the process. But as you say, there’s many of these difficulties that can be prevented because they are not because of our own inner psychic journals.

They are related to facilitation or the context or safety or interactions. And these things should be minimized and optimized. Yeah.

Sam Believ: Yeah. First of all, thank you for doing the work you’re doing because I’m sure people I’m happy that you exist. When they go through those difficult experiences and they’re left confused, they really need integration.

Like in our case we work with integration coaches and one of our coaches, Simon, who also interviewed a few episodes ago. He takes those difficult cases, when someone specifically sexual abuse it’s unfortunately more common than we would like to believe and helps people integrate those experiences.

But what I notice in reality, and I’m, you’re on the receiving end of all of the difficult situations on all the retreats or traditional ceremonies all over the place. Anyone who can find you, they end up going to you. But I’ve, what I find from from the other side where we work with people in the medicine, as long as you do it in a very gradual and very reasonable way, and especially managing the dose of the medicine specifically, I ask it’s not really that common that people get so destabilized.

But and I would like your opinion on, on, on the dosage because I think what, from my point of view, what I observe is a lot of places is where people come and all they have is one ayahuasca ceremony. And ayahuasca does tend to, for you to break through and go to this productive part of the experience where the information starts coming up in a conscious way.

It takes few ceremonies to build up. And you have a group, for example, let’s say we, we have a group of 25 people. If we were to give exactly same amount to everyone so that everyone in the group would have this profound experience on the first ceremony, I believe, then we’d have to take three or four of them to a psychiatric hospital next day.

And like the way we work with our shaman is we start slow and we find who needs more and who needs less. And we take people to that level where. They are having productive process, but they’re not overwhelmed. I don’t know. And it’s like integration is one thing where it’s like you’re dealing with the consequences.

How much can be done on the level of people that it serve the medicine to even prevent people from going to this difficult place.

Marc Aixalà: I think that’s the key question. And that’s where we should be putting all the attention, or maybe not all the attention, but a lot of the attention integration should not have to be focused on dealing with difficult directions.

We should focus more on preventing those difficult reactions from happening. And as you say, I think that a lot can be done in order to bring. Experiences to people that they can somehow manage. And what you were saying sounds very similar to what the European current of psychedelic therapy back in the fifties and the sixties were doing, which it was called the psychic therapy.

They were using incremental amounts of psychedelics starting low, not just to stay low, but to find an experience in which happens exact exactly what you’re saying, that you’re immersed in the experience, that you’re navigating the experience, but you’re not overwhelmed by the experience. Yeah. Which that goes in sharp contrast with the psychedelic approach which they did mostly in the United State, which is one high dose, 500 micrograms of LSD trying to reach Eagle D solution and in one session do all the work.

Yeah, that can turn out very well, but it has lots of risks as well. These more incremental approach. I think it makes much more sense for the times that we’re living in now in which we see that the importance is not so much in the experience itself, but in the process in which the experience is immersed.

So using incremental dosages in which there is internal agency to navigate the experience. So it’s me surfing the psychedelic waves rather than me being drowned by the psychedelic waves. I think that’s what we should aim for. Like people have this kind of experience that it’s an intense enough experience to be in experience, but that is not too intense, so you cannot relate to the experience.

That’s when we start losing track of what’s going on, that’s when we forget what’s going on. That’s when we can go into more psychotic like manifestations, and the Psycholytic authors, they said it back then. Han Handcar lawyer said that the key element in achieving this is the dose.

So one should be really careful in finding the proper dose for each person, so they will be inexperience, but by not, but not overwhelmed by the experience.

Sam Believ: This episode is sponsored by Lara Ioas Retreat. Most of Lara, if you’ve been listening to this podcast for a while, some of you might have already been to Lara before.

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There are no hidden fees. Visit lara.com to book your retreat or learn more. Lara Connect, heal Grow. L-A-W-A-Y-R a.com. Yes. So a lot of those negative experiences, they can basically. The unproductive ones, they can basically be described as an overdose. Basically. You’ve been overdosed on psychedelics.

And but the problem there is that it’s a lot of times it’s self inflicted. Like no matter how mu how careful we are, no matter how gradual we are people because of the videos they watched and people they spoke to. People want to have, they self-inflict this. They’re like, give me more or give me more.

And it’s so hard for us to be like, just trust the process. You will get there. It’s like a little bit more and a little bit more, not not to overwhelm them, but unfortunately a lot of times it’s this difficult situation where as someone who facilitates ceremony, we won’t everyone to have the experience.

We want them to have a productive outcome, but they want everything and all at once. Give me like five cup, let me just because ’cause people have this mindset and it’s it’s challenging, but like to put things back to positive perspective, like we, we hosted more than 2000 people here at LA Wire and those cases were in somebody’s this completely disbalanced after the retreat and needs completely needs integrations.

I can think of maybe three cases. And even then when they do the integration and the process, the experience, they come out better on the other side. But like 99% of cases is very manageable and just rainbows and butterflies and good things. So let’s let’s talk about this positive side, which is this other kind of integration like growth integration, the integration of a beautiful experience.

You’ve already gotten so much, how can we get more out of it?

Marc Aixalà: Yeah. So I think that there’s not a lot of sophisticated stuff that needs to go into this sort of integration. One thing that I really believe to be really important is to distinguish between what I call immediate integration.

Which is integration the following hours or days after the experience, and then long term integration. Yeah. There’s certain things that I believe need to happen in this short or this immediate integration that have to do mostly with rest, recovery, nutrition, hydration, like a soft and proper landing.

Yeah. So taking care of the body, having time to having time. Yeah. Just to be with yourself, be with experience. I’ve worked with people that have had problems in the integration phase, not because the experience itself, but because few hours after the ayahuasca retreat ended, they had to take an airplane to go back to Europe, for example.

And all of a sudden this shift of dimension even, like you’re in this very cared environment and all of a sudden you’re thrown into an airport and people go crazy. Taking care of this immediate phase of the integration as usually happens in good retreats, that they allow some time for integration that is essential in order to be able to then continue working in a soft, in a relaxed way.

Usually most of the practices that are done in retreats I dunno, journaling, Mandela drawing, group sharing interviews walks in nature, meditation, all these sort of activities, they can continue being useful after we go home, and also understanding that integration. Is itself a process, it is not a, a task or a deadline to be done.

No. I need to integrate my experience in the next three days and then I’m done and I can go and do something else. Integration is again, this metaphor of planting seeds. We’re planting a seed and the results will come with time. Yeah and time needs to go by as well. We cannot rush integration many times for an experience to be fully embodied.

We need to go through other life experiences as well. We need to reflect on things, we need to experience things, we need to act on things. And only then our psychedelic experiences will really find its way into being embodied and being fully integrated. Yeah. So I think that patience and working in this soft and trusting way that the process will unfold at little on pace.

It is also essential, but that’s not to say that we should not devote certain amount of time to think about experience, to listen music that connects us with experience, to journal, to write the trip reports, to continue painting, reading, inspiring books, being in touch with the peers that we had experience, so all this will be very important.

And there needs to be a a coherence between the steps that we are taking in our inner process and the steps that we are taking in our life. So we learn things. We open up, we discover things, but then that maybe needs to be reflected on our behavior, in our relationships, in the way that we do our job, or what job do we do.

So all these things that need also to change as a result of this inner change. And if we’re not doing the outer change, that is a sign that the inner change is not that complete. That’s when I talk about the different dimensions of integration from spirituality to the behavior cognition, emotions, physical body, social component of integration, and the time dimension of integration.

Integration needs to happen as a whole, not just as a cognitive exercise.

Sam Believ: Can you tell us a little bit more about the dimensions of integration that, that you just mentioned?

Marc Aixalà: Yeah, that’s another attempt to keep expanding the definition of what is integration. Yeah. So we have the metaphors, we have the different scenarios, difficult experiences versus positive experiences.

And I talk about these different dimensions, the spiritual dimension, cognitive dimension, emotional dimension, physical dimension and behavior. And then the social dimension of integration and time. Yeah. So these are the seven dimensions of integration and certain tools, certain interventions will focus more in one domain than another.

Yeah. So for example, when we are journaling or we are writing, or when we are sharing our experience and putting words into experience, maybe we’re working more on the cognitive domain of the experience. And for a lot of westerners, that’s a very important domain and I need to understand what this means.

Yeah. Other situations might involve lingering strong emotions and we need to deal with this emotional domain as well. And attending to the emotions, even if they don’t have any cognitive or any thoughts attached to them. It’s very important. Same thing with the body. The body is both a tool and that we use to go into the experiences, but also it’s a place where we get a lot of information about what’s happening in our inner process.

So we might be focused very much on doing some cognitive work with our experience, but actually what we’re getting most of the information is through the body. So paying attention to what’s happens in our body sensations, in our body processes, that can be an extremely important intervention or approach.

Same thing with social interactions. In order to fully be able to sustain work in the United States of consciousness, I believe that it’s much easier to do it if you have. A circle around you that can hold those experiences as well. If you are isolated, having psychedelic journeys that you cannot share with anybody, that you cannot find people that you relate to and understand you on that level, that’s gonna be very difficult to sustain a journey in this non-ordinary realities.

So taking this as a whole, I think that it helps us see where we could focus more in our integration process. Am I being too cognitive in my approach to integration? Am I basing integration just in, I don’t know, certain practices, or I’m being too spiritual or I am not being spiritual at all in my approach to integration?

That was a bias that we find in the Western Scientific approach to psychedelics that they try to, not to speak so much about spirituality or spiritual experiences because it sounds not serious, not scientific, but in other contexts we have an over-emphasis on spirituality and all integration seems to be spiritual.

All experiences are because of. Spirit or because of the higher dimensions or whatever, and they are missing, for example, that there’s difficulties in relationship with your family or your friends, or that you have some behaviors that really need to be addressed and modified. So like expanding our understanding and focusing on the things that we might not be focusing before.

I think that can help to have a more complete integration process.

Sam Believ: Yeah. It’s important to not go from one extreme where, you, you just fully material to another extreme where it’s like everything is magical thinking. We, you know what as we speak about integration, I feel really good about what we do here at Lure as we do everything from giving people journals, and even with Mandela, they can call and the integration circles.

And we even, we also do conversations with the title with the Shama, where people can sit down and talk to ’em and a lot of times they come and they say oh my God. Like I, this bad energy, whatever. And because our title, his wife is a psychologist, he’s no. It’s you’re just depressed.

Something like that. Grounding them. But regarding all the topic of integration what we find is that a lot of times people they come and they wanna do the ayahuasca experience, right? Because it’s it’s this big flashy, interesting experience and it has a lot of hype around it, but they don’t really want to do the integration part.

It’s it’s that kind of boring, a little lame, it’s oh, what do you mean? I just need to like, sit down and journal and of course like when you get people that are in a bad situation, people that have, their kitchen is on fire, they will look for help. But what about those people that like, have countertop full of good groceries, but they just don’t really want to process it?

Of course if they’re busy and they just don’t have time and life happens it’s understandable. What if they do have time, but they just choose for some reason culturally or something’s missing? How can we motivate more people to do integration? And specifically why do people that needed the most wanted the least?

Marc Aixalà: Yeah, that’s good point. And as a therapist that I’ve worked with people that came with some sort of problem or request, I have not encountered this situation that often in the sense that when somebody comes to a therapist asking for help, it’s because they do perceive that they need help and they are even willing to pay for the services.

No. So there’s clearly a need, an interest in doing that. If somebody comes to your retreat and they don’t want to do any integration work, I can think of different scenarios that would lead to different interventions and who is this person? It’s just somebody that came, wanted to experience this and goes away and they have no intention of doing anything within.

Okay. So in that case, I would say, I don’t know if that’s, you’re an adult, you are adult enough to decide to do ayahuasca, to do psychedelics, and you’re adult enough to decide what you want to do with that. If you want to waste your time, I don’t have to push you to do anything. I, as a practitioner, would definitely provide.

As you are saying that you do the context in my retreats in which that can happen. If you don’t want to use it, you know I can do my best. I can try to create the best environment for you to really see the point in that. Spending some time doing integration can be actually really beneficial for you.

But if you don’t want to, I will not force you. It would be different if this is somebody, for example, that wants to become a practitioner, let’s say. Yeah. Or somebody that wants to become a psychiatric therapist and they’re doing psychedelic experiences, but they’re not doing any work afterwards. So then that would be a concern because this person wants to eventually lead other people in these experiences.

No, if you are a shaman apprentice and you’re not doing what you’re supposed to be doing outside the ceremonies, that would be a concern for the teacher. So I think that depending on who is doing that, we would have a different approaches. But if somebody decides just to take psychedelics or ayahuasca for the sake of doing that and having a blast and taking a picture and then sharing that on social media and telling their friends how crazy was their time in Columbia or Peru?

I dunno if it’s my role to, to judge that, but if you want to come and learn, then there is a path.

Sam Believ: Yeah once maybe every six months, we do integration retreats, which is after we’ve done three, we do three retreats a month. And after the those three retreats, we have sometimes four or five days integration retreat, which like, there’s no medicine, it’s just yoga, meditation, lots of workshops.

And we’re actually doing one right now. And this month we had maybe 70 people attending different all the three retreats and only two people stayed for the integration retreat. So that’s the ratio because it’s even though people, we’ve done it before, once we had, I think eight people or 10, and they had an amazing result, they were so happy they stayed.

But it’s just so hard to explain the value because it’s not, it doesn’t have this. This sexy, explosive side that Ayahuasca does have. And it does feel like work, even though it can be fun. Let’s let’s change topics a little bit ’cause I think we, we’ve gotten good understanding of integration.

Let’s talk about yourself, your own your own experiences with plant medicines or psychedelics. ’cause obviously if you’re in this space, you might, you must be pa passionate about those things. Can you talk to us about your own journey and maybe your own integration as well and challenges in it?

Marc Aixalà: Yeah I’m not a person that likes to share a lot my personal journeys. I think that psychedelic experiences are part of the intimate world of each of us. And I don’t know if my journeys are relevant at all really or that spectacular or that memorable that I could not, probably not write a book about the amazing experiences that I’ve had.

My, my experience with non of consciousness has been more of a process. So I could highlight some experiences, like my first experience with having, for example, my first experience with MDMA, but or with ayahuasca. So there’s been some moments that they have had definitely an importance, but the.

The value of it has been more of an ongoing journey, and that has also been very much the case with holotropic breathwork. That’s been a technique, maybe the technique that I’ve used the most holotropic breathwork is a non-pharmacological tool that induces an non set of consciousness that can be similar to the what we achieved with psychedelics, but also different.

Yeah. And breathwork is interesting because experiences are not, I would say they are not spectacular compared to psychedelics. At least in my case. I don’t get these fancy visions. I don’t go so much into these archetypal experiences. I don’t go to transpersonal experiences that would be really impressive.

So a lot of my breath work experiences have been more. I don’t know, ordinary dealing with anger, dealing with fear, with sense of loneliness, like difficult emotions that I guess that we all carry inside. Definitely. I carry inside and somehow relating to those emotions and those contents in a different way.

As a teacher of mine would say I could not say that my breathwork experiences were really impressive, but what I saw is that following this path, my life was becoming better. I was becoming a better person. I was becoming a person that was more confident, more calm. I found more purpose in life.

I found a path for me, I, I am maybe the example of somebody that is not a very fast changer that I had one experience and then the day after was a different person. My story is more a story of a continuous. Evolution, so to speak, or a transformation that has happened sometimes in a non perceptible way.

But then you look back and it’s yeah, I have transformed this is because of the path and these experiences that I’ve had, but I could not really pinpoint one specific moment. Yeah. Dunno if that makes sense at all. But that’s a little bit how my journey has been so far regarding experiences in the United States of consciousness.

Sam Believ: Yeah. No, I can identify with that. My mind has also been slow slow and gradual and, but yeah, you can see the change after years and there are some experiences that are more profound than others, but it is a process. I think more people understand that it’s in case of ayahuasca or breath work, it’s like a, you’re creating a lifelong relationship with with this modality and once again, you get some groceries, you cook them, you eat them. Then you go and get some, again, you don’t want to like, overwhelm your system. Let’s talk about that. What do you see with people that are overdoing it? They’re like doing a different retreat every, I’m doing three retreats every month and not integrating what is the what is the risk there?

Marc Aixalà: I think that there’s definitely several risks. One is wasting time and money to begin with. As you said, you buy too many groceries and you cannot process them, so you have to end up throwing them because they rot or whatever. No, they expire. So there is no need to do that much all the time.

But I think that there’s also and this is we humans, we all carry a longing inside that sometimes becomes even a craving for wholeness, for connection. And that makes us go looking for more intensity, for more quantity. So that’s definitely there, and that will not be solved by going into having more and more.

That’s actually the symptom, not the solution. But I also think that there’s a part of this that has to do with the ecosystem that we’re living in with is team. The market economy, so there’s been this hype in, in retreat and psychedelics, and there’s a lot of people offering a lot of things.

And many times to differentiate yourself from the other people competing doing retreats, one needs to offer something more, or at least I’ve seen this happening in Spain for example, now has maybe quiet and down, but for some years you had this crazy retreat in which in four days they would take AO three times.

They would have all experience with, they would take rap, they would take changa, and then we, they would have, I don’t know what else, five, six experiences in four days without proper screening, without really measuring doses. Like providing a really intense experience as if more would be better.

Yeah. And of course that’s, that has certain appeal. No, I’m gonna go for this transformative weekend and next week I’m gonna be a different person. I’m gonna heal my traumas, I’m gonna heal my depression. And because it’s so intense, it’s gonna be a reset. That narrative makes a lot of sense, but usually it’s not true.

That is not how change happens, or if it happens, it’ll probably be somehow stormy. Yeah. Because there’s this saying a rabbi that said that the problem is that people want to change overnight and they want to sleep well that night. And still things have not happened on the same time.

Yeah. I don’t think that going for more and more is the answer. Actually, that’s one of the profiles that I describe in my book of people running into the difficulties know that you end up so much into the collective, into the trans person, that you start losing yourself. That you start losing who you really are as a unique individual, and then you somehow lose track of your own work and you’re just that mercy of the energies, the experience, the forces, the archetypes, and then it’s not your journey through life anymore.

It’s you just drifting through those psychic waters. Yeah.

Sam Believ: Yeah. It’s all about balance, I think. Any extreme is bad. Having someone that’s completely doesn’t believe in anything and just thinks, you were meat bags that are just here to live, work and then die is not good.

And then having someone that just spiritually bypass is everything. That’s also not good. Can you talk a little more about the concept of spiritual bypassing? Do you have any topics on that?

Marc Aixalà: Yeah. Spiritual bypassing is usually understood as using spiritual content or spiritual experiences to divert our attention from painful more ordinary aspects.

Yeah. So somebody that has, I don’t know a lot of issues with social or interpersonal relationships, but somehow manages to avoid the pain of these because they’re having spiritual experiences. Yeah. So that the, of these spiritual experiences somehow makes it easier to forget the suffering that we have, as if.

We could only, or we should heal or we should improve by focusing only in the light and not focusing on the pain that our ordinary lives bring, which is sometimes aligned that certain schools have approached certain, even Buddhist meditation schools. They say no keep meditating. Everything is Maya.

Yeah. That’s all. This is part of the veil. You need to transcend that. Your suffering is do not get attached to your suffering, your joy to get not attached to a joy. Just keep pushing through the wellness. Yeah. But through this, that most of the times, for most of us life is not that easy to take only in that dimension.

We have families, we have jobs, we have parents, we have friends. We need to also live in this dual reality. Yeah. Then when we are trying to use psychedelic experiences to avoid. Those conflicts to avoid those feelings. To avoid those difficulties. I think that’s when we’re doing a harmful spiritual bypass.

Because in the end, we’re not having a real spiritual experience because we’re just putting something aside. We’re not having a whole experience. We’re choosing just to focus on one side of the spectrum. But why should be sadness less spiritual than ecstasy? This a whole universe that I can think of how spiritual can be to contact with your own sadness and to see the reality of sadness in your life and doing something about it, but again we live in the, in this western world in which usually these techniques are marketed or sold as you are gonna be having positive results only I had a friend long time ago that she told me when I started this spiritual path or this healing path with breath work with psychedelics, I thought that I would, that my life would be focused only on the positive emotions that I would start experiencing only positive emotions.

But what I realized is that it actually was like my field of experience was broadening. I was able to experience more in depth, joy and happiness, but I was also opening myself to sadness and grief and the challenges that life brings, so I think that’s much more spiritual than only being happy.

Imagine a friend that it’s always happy, somehow it’s a little bit shallow. No, there’s certain shallowness in only being happy or only being in the positive.

Sam Believ: Yeah. It’s like you can only. Let’s, this song you only miss the you only miss the sun when it starts to snow. And, it’s kinda like you to understand, to feel happiness.

You can only feel it from the difference between how sad you were and how happy you are. It’s this emotional range. And if you just feel happy all the time, you, I guess you, I guess it’s not possible because you just can’t if it was possible. My, my approach to this sort of spiritual bypassing, kinda seeing, focusing on just one thing.

It’s if God made us this way and put us on this world with this experiences, then it’s for a reason. It’s kinda if somebody says no to be, to serve God, I need to be celibate, for example. Then why did God made us with sexual desires? It’s I would say I see more sense in living full life and then trying to get wisdom through it and not just be like, oh, of course it’s easy to be enlightened if you’re in a cave and don’t have three kids running around, like in my case, which is very challenging.

But I guess that’s what makes you really stronger. You talk about the topic of that indigenous people don’t really have concept of integration. Why so and in general, like what is that dialogue between Western approach and the Amazonian approach?

Marc Aixalà: I think that indigenous traditions, they do have integration practices, but they don’t frame them as integration.

Yeah. Again, we westerners, I believe that when we talk about integration, first thing that comes to mind is the cognitive aspect of it. I need to understand my experience. I need to interpret, to analyze, to reach. Rational coherence about experience integration in Amazonian traditions. I think it’s different.

You go to diet with the s and what they will tell you to do after the diet are some behavioral prescriptions. You cannot eat this, and that for certain amount of days. You cannot have sexual relationships. You should not drink cold or drinks or whatever, so they tell you, do this after the experience, because that’s the way in which your data is gonna be really embodied.

You need to do that for the data to really work. That in a way is an integration practice, but they don’t frame it in the same way that we frame it. It’s part of the process. And somehow we understand that this is the way that it is. You have your experience with the plant and then you need to do something else and you do that.

Yeah. And the thing is that, that is already integrated in their worldview. That’s why they don’t have to integrate anything, because everybody knows that after a data, that’s the way that you do it. They even know it in the restaurants, in the cities around, for example, in Alpa or in SCO or in ketos, you can go to restaurants and in the menu there’s Ayahuasca diet, which is food that you can eat after ayahuasca, and they sell it on the restaurant.

It eats integrated in the society already. It’s part of what, what happens. It is not so much integrated in our society now. It’s starting to be maybe a little bit more in this last 10 day 10 years. Things have probably improved a little bit, but we haven’t had a social container in which we can bring these experiences and somehow process these experiences.

We have to do it in a very individual way, at your own pace, in your own home in solitude, so we, that’s why we have to integrate because these experiences are something that feels alien. To us, it’s almost like it’s something external and needs to be integrated in our lives. For many indigenous traditions that these experiences are not alien.

There’s no need to integrate because it’s already integrated. It’s part of what we do. It’s not that we need to do something different to bring this here because it’s part of our reality. That’s why I say that indigenous ations do not talk about integration in the same way that we do.

Sam Believ: Thank you, mark. We’re gonna start wrapping up.

Tell the guests more about you, where they can find you, social media about your book, your courses and things like that.

Marc Aixalà: Yeah. Thank you. If people are interested in knowing more about this integration approach and going more in depth about these different metaphors and approaches to working integration, I’ve put a lot of information in my book, psychedelic Integration, which is published in Synergetic Press, and I offer a training at IC.

In which we go more in depth on how to apply the contents that you read in the book and somehow practice them to make them real. That’s a course that is mostly designed for therapists or for people that work with people. But also we have a few openings for lay people that are just interested in the field.

So this is gonna be starting in January 26th and we’re gonna be opening registrations soon. That’s the work that I do regarding integration. Then I offer workshops of phototropic breathwork trainings in holotropic, breathwork in Europe. Yeah, and usually I publish this information in my social media, which is a mixture of my personal life and my kids and my adventures in the psychedelic field.

So feel free to meet me there and communicate there. There are smart, so pretty straightforward to find me. And I think that’s that’s it. Yeah.

Sam Believ: Thank you, mark. Thank you for your time and thank you for your work you’re doing. I think it’s very important in this space.

Marc Aixalà: Thank you, Sam, for the invitation and for sharing also the way that you work at your retreat center.

It’s good to see that you bring so much heart and attention to working in a way that is compassionate and professional and useful for people. So yeah, thank you for the invitation.

Sam Believ: Thank you, mark. Guys, you’ll be listening to our podcast as always with you, the host, and believe, and I’ll see you in the next episode.

I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you’d like to support us and psychedelic renaissance at large, please follow us and leave us a like wherever it is you’re listening, share this episode with someone who will benefit from this information. Nothing in this podcast is intended as medical advice, and it is for educational and entertainment purposes only.

This episode is sponsored by Laira Ayahuasca Retreat. At Laira, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity. Laira connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you.

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with , a Colombian-American family physician, curandero, and author who bridges Western medicine with Amazonian spiritual healing. Trained at UCLA and UCSD, Joe spent six years in the Peruvian Amazon studying Shipibo curanderismo and is the author of .

We touch upon topics of:

• Joe’s journey as a doctor and curandero (01:16–02:22)
• Why he wrote Medicine Song and what it adds beyond his first book (03:39–05:14)
• Mystical experiences as a core part of healing (05:14–06:40)
• The Eagle and the Condor prophecy: science and spirit uniting (06:40–08:32)
• Measuring spiritual wellbeing and connectedness in research (09:03–11:42)
• Nature connection as a foundation for healing (13:54–17:56)
• The state of the psychedelic renaissance today (21:14–25:31)
• Traditional plant medicine and modern clinical therapies learning from each other (26:27–30:35)
• The limits of scaling retreats and ethical growth (31:20–44:25)
• Building a spiritual community and legal recognition in the U.S. (45:08–51:49)

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to http://www.lawayra.com

Find more about Joe Tafur at http://www.drjoetafur.com and his work at http://www.modernspirit.org.

Transcript

Sam Believ: You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast.com.

Dr. Joe Tafur: The idea that this psychedelic medicine and psychedelic therapy is rooted in these ancestral traditions with the plant medicines and mushrooms, et cetera, is opening the door to allowing mystical experiences. Into the healthcare system, and ultimately it’s showing this relevance of the spiritual healing to modern health and wellbeing.

So the book is about weaving those things together, showing that, hey, we’re in this timeframe when some ancestral people prophesize that we need to address the mind and the heart, the science and the spirit would need to come together. They would need to bridge, they would need to soar together for us to move forward.

That if they don’t, we’re gonna have more problems than we already have. And so that’s one movement. And then the psychedelic research world has been, for the last 30 years, creating stronger and stronger arguments of how spiritual wellbeing, how relevant it is to people’s healthcare, their mental health, and even to their physical health.

So the book is about ex exploring that, but it’s through stories. Through stories from my own life and journeys, and trying to draw upon ancestral wisdom from indigenous traditions, and also weave that into science and bridge it, and then tell the story of somebody who’s just following their spiritual path, and trying to understand the kind of.

Multidimensional Mystery of life.

Sam Believ: Hi guys, and welcome to Ayahuasca podcast. As always, we do the whole assembly of. Today I’m having a conversation with Joe Ur. Dr. Joe Ur is a Colombian American family physician, ero and author who bridges western medicine with Amazonian plans, spirit healing after training in family medicine at UCLA and doing MINDBODY research at UCSD.

He spent six years in the Peruvian Amazon at Rao Cent Spiritu studying bu. He is the author of Fellowship of the River and his new book, medicine Song, spiritual Healing and Psychedelic Renaissance, where he explores how spiritual healing psychedelics and modern science can come back into harmony.

This episode is sponsored by Lara Ayahuasca Retreat. At Lara, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity. Laira connect. Heal, grow guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you. Joe, welcome back to the show.

Dr. Joe Tafur: Thank you, Sam. Nice to be back. Nice to be back on the show. Thanks for having me.

Sam Believ: So yeah, that’s that second time I’m having Joe on the last time.

It was about two years ago. It’s he can watch it in episode number 34. So back then he was still writing the book about which we’re gonna talk today. Joe, welcome back, back on and tell us how what’s changed since the last time we spoke in your life.

Dr. Joe Tafur: Yeah, I think the main thing that’s changed is, probably little things have changed, but is the book, yeah, I released the book.

That’s what I was focused on, was releasing medicine song. And so it came out this year in July. So now I’m in the process of slowly promoting the book and. And meanwhile the otherwise, just digging in on my projects here in, in Phoenix, Arizona, and also there are other projects still going to Columbia a little bit.

It’s assignment and some trips to Peru. So all that’s the same, but now bringing this book and that kind of message out. And then slowly making my way here in Arizona towards more probably more integrative medicine doctor work as well and some psychedelic work with ketamine.

Sam Believ: Yeah. That’s actually was something I wanted to ask you. Given your history and everything you’ve done, do you see yourself more as a doctor or more as a ero or if you were to assign percentages, where would you put that?

Dr. Joe Tafur: I don’t know. I don’t know. I think that here in the, like in the states, and I would say it’s a, it’s.

I don’t know, maybe like half and half,

Sam Believ: 50 50.

Dr. Joe Tafur: Yeah. But I don’t know if that’s that accurate with the time, but in my heart, I would say something like that. Yeah.

Sam Believ: That’s that’s very good to hear. You’re a busy man. You have projects all over the place in different parts. So I’ve interestingly enough, when I was interviewing you last time, I didn’t read your book yet, but after that I’ve read the book, the Fellowship of the River, and it’s it’s a really great book.

So I highly recommend listeners to check it out, that it’s like relatable has some stories and you question many things. And I really enjoyed listening. I’m an audio book kind of person and I believe it. It’s you reading it as well, right?

Dr. Joe Tafur: Yeah, no, I read it. And then we have the new audio book of medicine song, and I read it as well.

Sam Believ: Yeah. So I’m looking forward to check out your new book. So I will basically be the, that’s the questions I’m gonna ask, so tell us about your new book. What is yeah, why did you need to write it? What, what was missing in the first book and why should people check it out?

Dr. Joe Tafur: The new book is about so the old book was about my journey as a doctor getting involved with plant medicine and making the case. I think trying to connect the dots medically to, to what I was observing there as a doctor in Peru and seeing the plant medicine work, how it was helping people and coming up with some theories, trying to relate spiritual healing to, to healing that could affect mental health or physical health.

And so that was the focus. And then this book is about tracking three decades in a way. Like it’s stories. This book is mostly about stories. So people, they want stories, they like stories. And so trying to catch, get people’s attention through stories, but also to teach something. And and so then I picked stories that are covering from my own personal life.

The first book, a lot of people were, sorry, I’m gonna clear my throat. The first book was a lot of people wanted to hear more stories, more, more the mystical side of things. And so then I wanted to do something that was addressing that and speaking more about the kind of, the relevance of the mystical side of healing work.

And so I track over these 30 years of stories in my own life. When mystical things or mystical experiences happen to me, not necessarily because of planned medicine or psychedelics, but just from life. And then also some experiences that happened in ceremony or even in psychedelic therapy. So tracking those stories and how it shaped the course of my journey all the way to, the church of the Eagle in the condor and our work here in Arizona and the legal battle and all that kind of a journey, but also tracking this prophecy of the eagle in the condor and aversion from Peru that said that this last 30 years would be this big kind of change period, the nineties into the 2000 twenties.

And that’s a very interesting timeframe when a lot, so much has changed and the internet came, and the cell phone came, and so many other advances in science and technology and quantum physics and artificial intelligence. It’s very interesting shifting period that was in a way anticipated by indigenous astrology, at least in Peru and by other groups suggesting this would be this big time and it would be a very trying time and a difficult time where there would be so much disequilibrium and the ecosystem in the world, but also in the mental health of the human society.

And that it would be some time when this eagle in the condor and in this version, there are many other versions in this version. The eagle is in a way, you could say like the path of the mind and the other one, the condor, and this version is path of the heart that they would have to come together.

And so it’s about science and spirit coming together. So during this same 30 years of the psychedelic renaissance is this overlaps, maps in the research? You were just at the maps conference. So in the 1990s, the first psychedelic research started. 2010 started publishing 2010 to 2020 to now the psychedelic twenties, that they announced at maps.

And within medicine, the idea that this psychedelic medicine and psychedelic therapies rooted in these ancestral traditions with plant medicines and mushrooms, et cetera, is opening the door to allowing mystical experiences into the healthcare system. And ultimately it’s showing this relevance of the spiritual healing to modern health and wellbeing.

So the book is about weaving those things together, showing that, hey, we’re in this timeframe when some ancestral people prophesize that we need to address the mind and the heart, the science and the spirit would need to come together. They would need to bridge, they would need to soar together for us to move forward.

That if they don’t, we’re gonna have more problems than we already have. And so that’s one movement. And then the psychedelic research world has been for the last 30 years, creating stronger and stronger arguments of how spiritual wellbeing, how relevant it is to people’s healthcare, their mental health, and even to their physical health.

So the book is about ex exploring that, but it’s through stories from my own life and journeys, and trying to draw upon ancestral wisdom from indigenous traditions and also weave that into science and bridge it and then tell the story of somebody who’s just following their spiritual path, and trying to understand the kind of multidimensional mystery of life.

Sam Believ: So you mentioned the spiritual wellbeing, with in the scientific world, you’d need to. You need to have numbers. So how does one measure someone’s spiritual wellbeing or how does one

Dr. Joe Tafur: Yeah.

Sam Believ: So the spiritual

Dr. Joe Tafur: yeah it’s been, there are a number of measures that psych, so psychological questionnaires that have been validated.

And so they’ve been building their way up in medicine and medical research and psychological research to become established measures of spiritual wellbeing that have been some cases been correlated clinically to, to the way your body works. So they’re starting to bridge that, you have gratitude and psychological gratitude measures that have been correlated to inflammation in the blood.

So you have spiritual wellbeing measures of different kinds. There’s like a big questionnaire where they try to see. People’s kind of shift and their sense of meaning and purpose in their life and their, and then there’s a further one that I think is a little broader. It’s called the connectedness scale that’s come out of psychedelic research.

And the connectedness scale is assessment of through questions and questionnaire, but it’s been linked to healthcare outcomes. So it’s not just an idea, it’s not like somebody’s dogma. It’s actually stuff that’s tied to, to a reality, to a measurable reality. So maybe it’s not so perfect, but it does trend in that way.

So people’s idea of their sense of connectedness with themselves, with their bodies, with their emotions, with their loved ones, with their community, with their society, with their ecosystem, and with the universe is, is a measurable number that it’s a scale, the connectedness scale that’s been validated and published and, shown that if you can shift connectedness in individuals, so let’s say an ayahuasca ceremony or an ayahuasca retreat or in some kind of intervention that it’s a good prognosticator, that it would probably, you can probably show that may lead to long-term benefit.

And so they follow those people out to say, is that in fact true? So that’s using the research machine to assess this. So then all of a sudden it’s connected in scale. Maybe it’s abstract, maybe it’s just a psychological measure, but it does have some value, some measurable value that’s related to healthcare outcomes.

So that’s an example of what has come out of the psychedelic research world that has been trying to understand what is it that these people are getting out of these experiences. That is leading to this big change for them. So some of the research is showing you could probably say something more simple that they’re shifting their emotional processing.

They’re able to process emotional experiences from their past in a different kind of way. That it’s a, and that has a connection to their biology, to the physical function of their body and also to their psychology and how they’re triggered or they’re not triggered. And so what is it that’s driving that?

And what role does a bigger spiritual context, or at least a mystical context or a transcendent context play in facilitating that kind of shift in somebody’s being and. So that’s, again, that’s looks like the shifts in spiritual wellbeing from other studies. Again, there’s a separate questionnaire. I could pull out the name.

It’s a complicated acronym, but it’s a form of questionnaire that again, it’s like, it’s just mounting evidence. Say, okay, this is the one we’re using. This is, and that’s, as the research is published, you show everybody, this is the questionnaire, here’s the questions, here’s the scale, here’s the history of the publication of this particular scale, and how, what the evidence has been accumulating around this scale.

So that’s how you assess it. Yeah. But it’s more rooted in, like I said, a sense of connectedness, a sense of feeling, like I said, meaning and purpose. So how do we, what are the more universal concepts around spirituality? So it’s not about it’s a very, it’s very much about the personal relationship, with the universe, with the transcendent, the mystical side of life.

Sam Believ: Yeah. Speaking of connection, one of the things you can talk about is the importance of connection to nature to in the process of healing. I dunno if you wanna talk about this a little bit.

Dr. Joe Tafur: Yeah. I think that nature, so nature, nature connectedness is one of the connectedness scales.

That was before there was the more broad connectedness scale, or maybe at the same time, but parallel. Some people had just focused on nature connectedness. So in the psychedelic therapy world, if you could, they, there was some research that had demonstrated that if you could promote more nature connectedness in the individual, that they would be more likely to heal.

And so there’s something there about this connection to nature. And so then there’s a step further. There’s different perspective. You could just be psychological measure, oh, I feel more connected to nature. But we would go a step further and say that connectedness to nature, that’s, it’s a resource, that there’s a resource, that there’s a metaphysical resource, that there’s a spiritual relationship with the earth and with nature that provides guidance, that provides information, that provides peace.

That is an example of how harmony could exist, within the ecosystem. How there could be a stable, sustainable equilibrium formed here on this earth. So nature is our example to understand that, the people that think that the world is an empty chaos, that nothing matters.

Everything’s meaningless. There’s no point to anything. And it’s the forest, is somehow functioning on its own in some kind of rhythm and consciousness that many people across the world would, they acknowledge the, in some cultures, the divinity of that. That is, there is a sacredness to the existence of that.

And so then that becomes, the nature becomes an example of what a loving community looks like in the sense that it can support, without judgment. So I think that the nature and our connectedness to nature. It is something that most of the ancestral cultures around the world acknowledge that’s very important, our spiritual relationship with nature.

That all the, I would say, I would argue that all the sustainable cultures that we were aware of, so the meaning that they were able to coexist with intact ecosystems for maybe thousands of years. The only examples that we have of cultures that have done that are ones that somehow acknowledge their spiritual relationship with nature.

That’s integral. So a lot of ancestral culture in Columbia, for example, are very focused on that, that they don’t believe that you can achieve sustainability, that you will not come to a place where you clean, where the rivers are clean, where you live, until you acknowledge that you actually, there is an a mystical side of life.

There is a transcendent aspect to our existence, that the quantum physics and all the other physics and just being alive and being honest, that there is a mystery that exists. So then addressing this and trying to find some kind of right relationship, how they call it, some kind of way to come into peace and, there’s a lot of room for skepticism and questioning, but still moving in that direction that, that’s important.

That, that’s a value of yours that’s, that’s necessary for the long-term health and outcome. Here I am in United States, like the amount we’re really dealing with some heavy duty stuff here of the disrespect. They just have something that’s been going on for a long time.

They just published something last week that, colorectal cancer, like high rates in young people, 30 year olds, from, they said they’ve been feeding around the bush so long. What is it? Why? What could it be? And it’s the ultra processed foods, and the lack of the, poisoning the environment constantly.

And then the damage that it’s causing, here on the development of the youth, there’s, it’s a big issue here that’s a big mystery, like what’s going on with, whether it’s autism or these other things like so much environmental contamination and kind of disrespect over what it means to, to be in relationship with where you live.

And there’s immense suffering that is like bubbling up right now. It’s very intense, that the healthcare system, it’s like we probably cannot just deal with it, it’s gonna overwhelm the system and we’re just seeing it coming up now. So the concern is this, is this ignorance of these things?

Is it sustainable? And as far as we know, no, there’s no reason to think that it would be. Like, we have no argument that it would be. So then we’re on the edge of that cliff, and here in this culture, I think we’re really overlooking over the edge and seeing the way that’s bleeding over into other parts of the world.

And so it’s just okay, how do we relate to nature here in North America? The tribes, the indigenous tribes had a much different attitude towards. Like we say, the creation, within the, let’s say the monotheistic religions, the Judaism, Christianity, for example, that the creation would be considered sacred.

That it’s not a piece of garbage for you to use up and throw away, and that is, it’s impractical, but there’s some kind of deeper metaphysical consideration as well, in the mix there.

Sam Believ: Yeah, U US is a very unhealthy place. The world is getting unhealthy, but US is extra unhealthy.

When I went to maps and I’ve been there for a week, I felt terrible. Like just the food and something there, I physically, I felt were very ill. So you talk about, last 30 years from nineties the psychedelic renaissance. How far along are we? Like how’s that urinalysis, how is that looking?

How much is left for us still, hopefully better times are coming or maybe people embrace psychedelics more and other spiritual practices.

Dr. Joe Tafur: Yeah, it’s further than ever number one like that we know of. And in America, there was the, you were at the MAPS conference and the MDMA research that got, in America that got denied.

Like you said, this what you know, for your, as a tourist is this felt like a very unhealthy culture. That you comment and this culture that’s dominated the, the industry is dominating the government. And so there’s big questions around why was MDMA assisted therapy denied here when Australia said yes and Canada said yes.

So they’re moving forward. So thanks to the MAPS research conducted largely in the United States, Canada’s moving forward with MDMA, Canada’s also moving forward with some degree of psilocybin therapy. Australia’s moving forward with MDMA with some degree of psilocybin therapy as well within the United States.

There’s this MDMA research and the battle with the FDA continues. To try to find approval of these treatments. Psilocybin has breakthrough therapy status is in clinical research trials that are supposed to culminate in, I don’t know, a couple years. And while they do that, it’s been sup lending support to a lot of decriminalization movements that have allowed for mushrooms and other plant medicines to become decriminalized in a number of states with even tracks towards therapeutic use within Colorado, in New Mexico, in Washington, in Oregon, for example.

So that’s growing. It’s not going backwards even with the, the changing politics, it’s not going backwards as far as we can tell. They just secured $50 million for ibogaine research in in Texas, very conservative part of the country. At least here in the United States, we’re seeing that because of this unhealthiness that you observe.

That the suffering in the disease is so intense that they have to look for these kind of options. So I believe that it’s, we just keep moving forward towards making more psychedelic therapies and trauma-informed care available, including, more legal support for the Sacred Plant medicines.

Since we brought our case across last year there’s been two other, after 15 years of no legal kind of permission for communities working with Ayahuasca now since we got past, there’s two more, and then there’s a few more that are coming. And so there’s a lot more open-mindedness that’s happening towards these things.

And so I’m not sure how far we are. I guess I just see it keep growing and growing in the United States. Psychedelic research is happening at all the top universities. I don’t know of one that’s like against doing this research. I’m not aware, and so it just, how could it not grow? There’s a resistance to it, but the growth continues, so it seems to continue growing.

I don’t know, ketamine is legal. And so trying to find the ketamine assisted therapy and create good examples within that practice and to also confront the, the abuses that happen in that world. So that’s happening. And so then meanwhile I was in Brazil and they have the cannabis medical conference and then there they went psychedelic research and plant medicine support at that conference.

And that was there, that was this year in Columbia. I don’t know. There’s movements that are trying to encourage more psychedelic therapies. In Mexico, there’s, there’s iboga treatments, facilities where people are going. People go to Jamaica to do mushroom ceremonies. It’s just, they’re just more and more opportunities and more and more open-mindedness, I think again and again.

I think it’s going as fast as it can go.

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Yeah, that’s very promising. To see. And you mentioned MDMA and ketamine and new kind of psychedelics. I know you’re grounded in the world of ayahuascan old, traditional psychedelics. So how do you see those both worlds coexisting? And what can both of those modalities learn from each other?

Dr. Joe Tafur: Yeah I think first of all, not everyone is gonna to drink ayahuasca, nor should they, so it’s like, how many people do you see at your center? I guess you see a lot of people, but turns out there’s way more people on the planet Earth. And as far as meeting the demand of the amount of suffering that exists is, it’s really formidable.

And so you’re gonna have to have multiple strategies. That’s just a reality. And so within the United States, as I said, while, there’s a few, sacred plant medicine, spiritual communities, including communities that work with ayahuasca. A few, there’s underground use, and there’s all this other stuff going on.

But the MDMA psychotherapy is illegal. Psilocybin clinical work is very limited. Psilocybin, spiritual ceremonial work is very limited. So ketamine, is the legal option that can grow freely to address the problem here, as an example within the healthcare system, even potentially be paid for by the healthcare system one day.

Who’s gonna pay for all this? So it’s so important to me that the options that are actually available to the society are there because if the society doesn’t change at a larger scale. The problem is devastating. So that’s the first thing. As far as what they can learn from each other, I think they can learn a lot from each other.

And I think they are learning a lot from each other. And so I am really interested in, I and I am involved in teaching and bringing people to Columbia, to Peru to take psychedelic therapists who want to learn about ceremony in the spiritual context. Those people who are guiding people in clinical settings, even with ketamine or with psilocybin or with MDMA, like many times they encounter like spiritual phenomenon that happen, when you open up those portals and those spaces and they’re not getting a lot of guidance around how to address, this other mystical side of what we’ve been talking about.

So you have the ancestral traditions that have a lot of experience to draw from. And so we are trying to connect those two. Areas so they can learn from that and learn from the guidance and draw upon that. And eventually we see people here with Ketamine, for example, including myself okay, bringing live ceremonial singing to those settings that there are people who train and have experience and gifts in those areas.

And like why won’t it eventually turn into that the way it is traditionally, not just recorded music, but also, shamanic or energetically conscious exchange. So that’s beginning. It’s very, it’s in its early stages, but we’re involved in that and in trying to connect those two kind of ways.

And then on the other side, from the science side there’s so much to be gained, that some of the ancestral traditions and the beauty and the magic of focusing maybe on the energetic side of things so much. But there’s a lot of psychological knowledge to draw from, that’s beneficial to the tribal people as well and the kind of healing work they’re working on with their own families.

And so just drawing upon the experience of Western psychotherapy and western science and that there’s just so much to learn about, how these things are interacting with the brain and the mind, and the body. And it’s useful, to, to recognize also people that might be more at risk that, hey, this is something that’s maybe not so safe to do.

This isn’t, maybe we should be more careful, like the medical screening side of people going to an ayahuasca, a retreat or a retreat center that works with ayahuasca, for example, like the Western Diagnostics is huge in helping avoid problems in those settings. So there’s a lot of knowledge to draw from.

Sam Believ: Yeah, it’s really cool to see that. Synergy, so to speak in collaboration if it happens this way and the both sides take the best from each other while growing simultaneously. But yeah what you’re saying is correct. I’ve calculated that in order to give 8 billion people Ayahuasca, you’d need to give 1 million people.

You’d need to have a 1 million people ceremony every day for 30 years, which is obviously not possible and would not be enough at all, because as people would need to do it over and over again. So it is, I think it forever is gonna stay limited in let’s say it’s for the very special people or very interested people in it because there’s just.

It’s just hard. And you yourself working at Nivera and seeing that format of of retreat, you probably know how difficult it is also to, to organize and to make it happen and how non-scalable it is. From a strictly business point of view, you can’t really scale that. Let’s say we have a retreat Lara and we host, we do three retreats a month and we host anywhere from 60 to 90 people every month, which is a lot.

But yeah, if I wanted to, I’m completely burned myself down to the ground. I could maybe start one, one or two more retreats. So that’s a couple hundred people a month, but still, it’s not enough to make a dent. However, another thing you touched on, I think that’s where the, my personal hopes are from the point of view of spreading the medicine is training the facilitators because, you said you wanna bring people that serve the medicine, you wanna train them in the more shamanic traditional approaches. And that’s separately from that conversation, I came to the same conclusion that it’s necessary. Because even if you’re a psychiatrist, it doesn’t mean that you know what to do in the ceremony from a spiritual point of view.

And, in the clinical setting, they don’t really use all the tools that are used in traditional ceremony. And also there’s a space because all, most of the facilitation training programs in us they lack practical experience. It’s it’s all very technical. So I don’t know how far along did you get in there, but if you ever want to collaborate I would more more than be more than happy to do something together because we do have a lot of people and there’s a lot of opportunities to to practice.

But actually this December we start with doing a first, have a retreat where people that, doctors and therapists that are coming, they can they can participate in the retreat. They pay a little extra but there’s a training program on top of that. I’m collaborating with the few people.

Some of them I’m at maps and we, and they will be able to do the retreat, learn and also take that expense out of their taxes and learn continuous learning credits. So that’s my first attempt in, in that direction because if we were able to get a lot of people like that they wanna serve the medicine.

N not ayahuasca, but they wanna work with ketamine or MDMA or whatever else gets legalized, and then we can train them on how to do the shamanic part. And the ation part, because let’s be honest, practicing on ayahuasca is the best way because of how hard it is. And, sitting in a Cain clinic is much more difficult experience than being in an ayahuasca ceremony.

It’s just more intense. Yeah. Do you have any thoughts about that? Any ideas?

Dr. Joe Tafur: Yeah, everybody’s trying to do different things and so I don’t know what’s harder or not harder, that’s very, that’s an opinion, that people might have different opinions about that kind of thing.

But I think it’s important to create those opportunities for those people that are getting into psychedelic therapy and so yeah I’m doing that myself and. And like with these other, they didn’t got enough on my plate right now, I don’t know about new projects or new collaborations.

They’re just trying to keep the ones we’re going, we’re doing, trying to get those established and functioning. And, but I think it’s really important to do it, but I don’t think that it’s like these are cultural shifts and so the focus and the business model and scale up and all that is, supposedly because they’re trying to address the big problem, that’s not why people really scale up.

They’re trying to make more money. That’s why they scale up. And and so I think that new pro, all these programs, like you said, trying to come up with ways to do it where it’s sustainable, where it’s takes care of the workforce and not gonna burn everybody out and create examples.

So that’s gonna take multiple people. So the idea is you create more example, look, this is what we’re doing and this is how we’re helping, and hey, you, maybe you guys can do it too, and then you’ll also help, but the idea that somebody needs to monopolize the whole thing, in order to get rich, would be the main reason.

It just not, doesn’t work out very well, as you mentioned, because it takes such more care, to do what we’re trying to do. So it’s oh, this is not a completely capitalist model. And so that’s part of the issue of the change. It’s okay, are there small businesses and things that are sustainable, that do well enough that can keep something going that they really feel good about and that they believe in?

That it’s not just about the venture capital, it has already come and gone through psychedelics. They’re the fantasy and the thrill of thinking, oh wow, this is such an exciting treatment. This is such a big treatment. We could get rich. Alls we have to do is what we already got rich from cannabis, or we already got rich from crypto.

So they think, oh, alls we do is just put our money into here because, they’re so smart because they made so much money so young that they must be so intelligent, but then as it turns out, when you get into the work that you’re doing you realize that it’s yeah, it’s very difficult.

It’s tough, it’s not fun all the time. It’s not just a thrill. It’s not just a cheap vacation or whatever, or a luxury vacation. It’s serious. It’s heavy, and the profit margins aren’t what you thought it was gonna be. And so once that kind of reveals itself, they go away. They were in it for the profit margin.

There was a thrill around, oh my God, I, oh my God, I got so high. Oh wow. I saw so much. But really what was boring was, oh, we’re not making as much money as I thought we were gonna make. So then they leave. And that’s what we’ve seen a lot of. And so the idea that there would be investment in capital to scale up, there’s few examples.

There are examples of people that are pulling that off. It’s, again it’s so hard, it’s so hard to maintain the integrity, around this kind of work to keep it on track. And so I think that it’s so important that there are good examples. And so the good examples means that before they think about scaling up, before they think about growing, that they get what they’re doing stable, and otherwise there’s really nothing to grow.

And so that’s what we’re trying to get to. And I think it’s a patient process.

Sam Believ: Yeah. It’s, it is an interesting topic for me personally. The, and forever topic, this balance between spirituality and helping people and then the business, because unfortunately no matter how amazing we are and wanting to help people, we are still existing within this capitalist society.

So it’s kinda like you have to defeat it with its own tools. ’cause if you can’t. At least for now, I’ve not figure out how to do something without making money. And then, like from a strictly business point of view, it’s the people that solve the biggest problems are the people that make the most money.

Like in, in a sort of, is that true? Is that completely true? ID idealizing it, but at least that’s what a, that’s what a capitalist would say.

Dr. Joe Tafur: Yeah.

Sam Believ: Yeah. But with the retreat model, you can run a retreat, but it takes, as you say, so much love and care that the moment you try to spread your effort, it all falls apart.

That’s what it seems to me. But but at the same time I remember it was up to the ceremony that I sat down. I was like I feel so great. How can I get everyone else to feel the same way? And I made this calculation. I’m like, oh, this is. Very difficult. So I hope somebody figures it out eventually.

Not to make a lot of money, but to, yeah. To help a lot of people and hopefully make some money still, because of course. No, I

Dr. Joe Tafur: think it has to be, it has to be, like I say, you gotta be profitable to be charitable. Paul Staman always says that, and I think it’s true. So you want it to be, profitable and you, and people deserve to make a living, doing what they’re doing, especially trying to help.

And so I’m all for that, and I think that’s really important. And it won’t sustain without that, it’ll fade away out competed by everything else that’s out there. So I think it’s really important, but I think it’s the growth model, that people want to grow before they’re ready because of ambition.

And that’s the part that keeps falling apart. And we’ve seen it fall apart in the psychedelic world of. Multiple organizations that grew. I don’t know. There’s this field trip with a group that, I don’t know, I’m not trying to trash field trip. I’m just saying they were planning to do ketamine retreats and all this stuff, and they tried to grow very fast and it, and they overextended and they fell out.

It didn’t work. And that’s happened a few times now. There are a few retreat centers within Ayahuasca world that do expand and are able to create, more environments. And so it does go on in those worlds. It’s just, yeah, it’s tricky, it’s not so easy to do. So people are trying to do that.

And I think it’s just, everything’s changing. Everything’s changing all the time. And so it’s unstable. So then you’re trying to find something that you enjoy, that you’re able to sustain. That you feel good about. And then if you can make it, if you can grow it in an effort to help more people and also to be more successful, great.

But I think the reality is just that’s not a, it’s not a slam dunk, it’s not just ’cause Oh, this was so big for me and for the people that I work with that, oh my, this is gonna be huge and, we’re gonna run it so big. And I say for example, in America, the rehabs, there’s no the rehab business is it’s so personal, so it’s so deeply personal, the work that they do with people.

And you really don’t see like a brand name growing in some big way across the country to be able to handle that. It’s just, it’s not common in mental health care. To see a large scale business behind it, it’s something that’s been difficult to maintain. And so maybe part of the nature of that. So then you have other formats, the people that really want to help.

For example, you have people like Santo Dime, the Brazilian, where it’s a church and they have a way of approaching the medicine and the community that’s is not a capitalist model, and they’ve probably grown more than any other ayahuasca utilizing community, then the old fashioned was not a capitalist model either.

The tradition, they’re just doing it as part of their spirituality and yeah, spread across the whole Amazon. In that case, even that wasn’t enough to fix everything, in those areas. So I think there’ll be some element of it that will be, that’ll grow beyond, the capitalist model.

But a retreat center is a retreat center. You offer a special service. People are coming, they’re staying, you’re feeding them, you’re taking care of them. You’re translating for them. They can take a shower in the jungle, all these things. So it’s a special service that, that you’re offering people an immersion experience that I think warrants, yeah.

Its own business, but there will be to, for the change to grow into the world, it’ll have to extend beyond the business model.

Sam Believ: Yeah. I agree. There’s some, something else needs to be figured out, and I don’t think it’s been figured out before. That’s that’s something I think about a lot.

But the church model is very interesting. And you mentioned Santo and not a business model. We’re talking about a model of how to spread healing Yeah. To, to far and wide. And obviously you’re a part of a church as well, right? The, yeah. Eagle and Conor. Yes. Te tell us more about that.

Like, how does it look like I’ve interviewed a few people that run psychedelic churches and obviously, tell us about that. How does it look like? I only know this world, the retreat former indigenous youth and also Yeah. For us tell us, I think our community,

Dr. Joe Tafur: they don’t like being put into this psychedelic church category because we feel like it’s, yeah.

It’s a sacred plant medicine tradition. So we’re like carrying on the tradition that we learned in, in, in Peru. And we continue in our connections to ancestral traditions in Columbia and also our connections to ancestral traditions here in the United States with the Native Americans that are part of our community and drawing upon those deeper traditions.

And so then it’s just a small scale. We’re a small scale, community that just went through the big process to try to be legal. And we just are, we’re starting from very little, so we don’t have a lot of investment or anything. And so we’re still securing a location and we’ve been just doing it in people’s homes and just very small scale kind of operation that’s just very grassroots and focused on our community.

So we’re like we just wanna build out our community. We wanna make sure that the people that we’re offering the ceremony to are part of our community, and that we are gonna be able to follow up with them and be aware of what’s happening with them. And they don’t just come and go, but that it’s actually investing into, the future of the community and seeing, okay, what’s the real, what, what really happens when you offer this to people within the same place?

And over time, are they making progress or not? And so we’re focused on that. And so we are also. Dedicated to honoring the ancestral traditions, the indigenous traditions across cultures in the world. So not just obviously here in Americas with the indigenous traditions, but encouraging our, members to learn more about their own ancestral culture and to honor ancestral culture.

That it was more connected to nature, that was more connected to spirituality and bringing these things back online. And also encouraging the connection to health and wellbeing that we feel like, okay, this spiritual practice is has, there, there’s potential therapeutic benefit of spiritual practice.

And so we’re saying that if it is like genuine spiritual practice, that it should be the therapeutic. That it should help your health and wellbeing. How we started the discussion today, that it’s like if what we’re doing is helping you, that it should be helping you at some level, like mentally or emotionally or spiritually or maybe even physically and that’s, or in your relationships, with each other, with your family, et cetera.

That’s what we’re trying to help improve. So we’re just trying to be an example, like I said, of we’re not saying we have all the answers. We’re not saying we figured it out. We haven’t figured out the financial side of it. We haven’t figured it out, but we think that we’re trying to approach it with integrity and doing our best to address the issues and the concerns and the problems that come up.

And like I said, share the example with the larger so that other people will pick up and do something. The people are playing soccer all over the world, not just because obviously there’s a huge business around soccer, but they just do it. People are playing music all over the world, there’s big business around music, but that’s not the only thing that’s going on with music.

So just letting these things grow from the ground up.

Sam Believ: How was your, were you able to get the exemption with the da?

Dr. Joe Tafur: Yeah, we did. One was, we got the, we got it last year. Yeah, I think or I dunno if it was last year or the year before. I think it was last year. I believe we got the exemption.

Yeah.

Sam Believ: Congratulations. That’s very exciting. Yeah. Thank you.

Dr. Joe Tafur: Yeah, we got it. Yeah, we sued the government and they settled with us, out of court. And settled. The court was aware of the settlement and so they settled. And part of the settlement was that we got our DA license.

And so we’ve been renewed a couple times now ’cause there was a couple different processes. So now we’ve imported Ayahuasca, brought Ayahuasca from Peru to the United States a few times and we’re legal. So that was what our fight was. Yeah, we fought to do that. And also again, like we’re not responsible for everybody else and they want to do it.

It’s okay, start your church, start your community, put your, if you want to do it this way, if you want to bring it legally through South America, here’s the path. And so two other churches have gotten it right after us, so we broke the ice and there’s more and behind them. And so we wanted to break the ice.

And our argument was this is a legitimate spiritual tradition. It should be treated like, for under religious freedom. And the concern was that, oh, the Santa a die in the United States is considered legal. And same with the UDV, the Brazilian churches that are syncretic with the Christianity.

And we’re not against that, but we just, they felt like the indigenous traditions or the traditions that were learned drawing upon the more ancestral tradition were not given the same respect. They were not given the same dignity. And we felt that was important to address. So we fought for that and we got it.

So that’s a sign of a big change. And here. In the us I don’t know. In my experience personally, for example, with the DEA, they’ve been very supportive, with the process. So it’s a bureaucracy that maybe it’s not the greatest to have to deal with, but it’s not that bad and we’re moving forward.

Yeah. So it’s a big success for us. And it’s the Church of the Eagle and the condor in celebration of the prophecy.

Sam Believ: Congratulations. It sounds like something very difficult to pull off suing the government. It’s, it sounds complex. So I’m happy you did it because last time I’ve, I was aware you were still in it and so yeah, it’s it’s very helpful for the other people and churches and legalization or just change in the way people in US look at it at large as well through, through this process.

Yeah, we’re almost wrapping up, but few more things I’d wanna talk about is you mentioned mystical experiences. If you wanna talk about this what, what happens when you work with Yeah.

Dr. Joe Tafur: I think that it’s just that the idea of a mystical experience or some kind of experience that’s I might shut this there’s different, obviously when you’re working at a retreat center works with ayahuasca plant medicine and the idea that okay, people, some mystical experiences are very relevant to, to what happens to them there.

I think that’s maybe not every time, but it’s common that would be play a role. And there was a publication here in the United States a couple years ago that also was presented at the previous maps. Certain experiences from Emory University saying spiritual, existential, religious or theological experiences.

Trying to give a broad, so that might feel spiritual to the person or might be existential challenging the meaning of the universe for them or something of their life and death, their existence or religious or theological, like their kind of understanding of the, these things.

And so that these kind of experiences, they said, at least within the psychedelic therapy world, they said it’s very common. When they observe and study everyone, they realize, I’m gonna shut this just real quickly. Just be a second.

They realize that is this very common, if you were to ask people at your center, after a retreat. Did you have a, non-ordinary experience? I think it would be pretty high percentage, of people. So then they say in the same paper they publish, they said, yeah. And then these cert experiences, beyond, like there was previously in the academic world a mystical experience with the questionnaire and a scale that was there.

But they said with the cert experiences that they’re very, they said these were really important in the person’s outcome. When they clinically relevant. So the person if in their wellness journey, did they get better? Did they find therapy? Did they have spiritual healing from their process?

It turns out that if they had this certain experience that a lot of times that was very relevant to their process. So it’s the idea of a transcendent experience. If you look at the mystical questionnaire, you’re talking about people having experiences. Where maybe they, they feel like they transcend, time and space, or they feel their ego dissolve or they feel themselves come into a union with the cosmos, with infinity.

That they begin to feel this kind of gnosis of this and knowing, and a connection to some kind of inner healing intelligence or maybe a connection to the intelligence of nature. What people call non-ordinary experiences, but that those could also take on, deeper kind of questions and understanding about what they find meaningful in their life, what they think is really significant in their life, what they would consider like sacred in their priorities.

If I were to die without addressing this, that’s a big deal. What am I doing here in this life? So addressing those kind of things is really important in general, actually. But then with the sacred plant medicines and some of the psychedelic therapies that some of these things are brought into the forefront.

That maybe the society, the culture is bearing these things, over material concerns, et cetera, that are real. But sometimes they might get carried away and they get, overly prioritized. And so then the person goes through their life and maybe they were really successful and they’re, great capitalist and they got so rich and they have all the money and they have everything they wanted, but then they’re not happy and they don’t understand and maybe they even get, become very unhappy, maybe they become so depressed and lost that they wanna kill themselves despite achieving everything that they were guided to achieve.

So it’s okay, what is that other element? What is that X factor that would’ve made them happier? How can they come to understand what that is? And is that happiness and that connection to some kind of deeper kind of metaphysical understanding of the course of their life, does that actually improve their health?

Not only would they feel better, but do they have less medical problems, less mental health problems? Do they bring more, joy into the world? Do they bring more goodness into the thing? Do they take better care of the nature and the world? So there’s something there that, the mystical side that there, if we’re trying to understand the nature of existence and, our life on this planet, et cetera, that there’s some, like I said, there’s some mystical side of that.

And so all the cultures all over the world have been, have all developed a lot of spiritual practices that are designed around helping people get in touch with that. And then if you’re in a culture, in a society where you’ve just been really closing the door to that, then sometimes plant medicine or psychedelic therapies can really help reopen you to something that you’ve been very disconnected from.

That may actually just be part of the nature of reality.

Sam Believ: Okay. Thank you, Joe. Thank you for for another episode. I think it was really great. Lastly, just tell the audience where to find you, your books where you want to send them.

Dr. Joe Tafur: Yeah, so then the new book, the old book, and the new book is available on amazon.com and through Audible, you can get it.

They also have it on ebook there. And then we have our activities, our retreats for the healthcare providers on modern spirit.org. And then I also have my own website, dr joe defer.com, so that’s where you can learn more about our work.

Sam Believ: Thank you, Joe. I guess I’ll see you again when you write another book.

Dr. Joe Tafur: Thank you, Sam. Good luck with what you’re doing.

Sam Believ: Guys, you are listening to Ayahuasca podcast. As always, we do the host and live, and I’ll see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you’d like to support us and psychedelic renaissance at large, please follow us and leave us a like, wherever it is you’re listening, share this episode with someone who will benefit from this information.

Nothing in this podcast is intended as medical advice, and it is for educational and entertainment purposes only. This episode is sponsored by Laira Ayahuasca Retreat. At laira, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity. Laira connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you.

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with , the creator of the Adeptus Psychonautica YouTube channel. Rob is known for his grounded, humorous, and skeptical approach to altered states, sharing honest self-experiments, retreat reviews, and long-form reflections as “an ordinary person having extraordinary experiences.”

We touch upon topics of:

• How an Aya retreat led Rob to start his YouTube channel (02:55–04:45)
• Good retreats vs badly run retreats and red flags to watch for (05:10–11:40)
• Spiritual ego, cult dynamics, and predatory facilitators (08:40–12:30)
• Separating the medicine experience from the retreat organization (10:00–11:50)
• Exploring different Aya traditions beyond Peru (13:10–15:20)
• What it means to be a psychonaut and inner exploration (16:00–19:40)
• Creativity, storytelling, and integration after difficult life periods (21:00–23:30)
• Healing family relationships through shared ceremonies (23:30–25:30)
• Consciousness exploration and daily practice vs ceremony work (26:00–29:20)

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to http://www.lawayra.com

Find more about Rob and his work on YouTube at Adeptus Psychonautica.

Transcript

Rob: You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast.com. Once you experience truly psychedelic experience or truly spiritual experience, I would compare it to like when you have your first orgasm as like a teenager, suddenly the world just opens up you thinking, wow, there is something else here. It’s just a whole new world, and I just find that fascinating and particularly that.

Dive into the same experience and have just such a radically different experience each time. Your worldview can be changed, each time. You can discover new stuff about yourself each time. For me, I’ve always liked that experience of just being like amazed by whatever’s going on in that experience. And I tend to think of as an inward experience that what I’m experiencing is me, my subconscious.

I don’t really subscribe to ideas of this is aliens being beaming ideas into my head. I flip flop a little bit on some of these worldviews. But even if we’re just take at that, that this is an inward experience and the depth and richness of that experience is just so vast, then it is, how could you not be fascinated and want to explore more of it?

So that’s why I’m a psych arts. I think we live in a golden age. For someone like me from the north, north of Manchester, to be able to get a metal tube fly across the world, sit with these ancient traditions, be welcomed into these kind of ceremonies, have these mind blowing. Soul expanding experiences.

It is a privilege beyond all privileges. I’m just so grateful. Yeah. I live in this time where I can even know these things exist. If you rewind the clock 50, 60 years, we’ve lived at the perfect age of like information, travel capability, just to be able to do this. I feel such gratitude that these tradition.

You know these tribes share these things with us ’cause it’s amazing.

Sam Believ: Hi guys and welcome to Ayahuasca podcast. As always, we you the host, Sam. Today I’m having an interview with Rob. Rob is the creator of Adapta Psycho Nortica YouTube channel, one of the most trusted channels exploring plant medicine and altered states known for his humor, skepticism, and raw honesty. He breaks down intense inner experiences in a way that’s relatable and ground that.

His channel mixes a long form, self experiments, retreat, reviews, and deep dives into the psychology of intelligence. Rob is also one of the few creators openly discussing the risks from predatory facilitators to spiritual bypassing to traps of chasing cheek experiences. He calls himself, an ordinary person having an extra ordinary experiences.

This episode is sponsored by Lara Ayahuasca Retreat. At Laira, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity. Laira, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you, Rob. Welcome to the show. Cheers. I’m pleasure for you, mate. As having you on before we start and tell a story about how you got here, tell us how did you get into this?

To starting a YouTube channel about psychedelics. How did this came into your life?

Rob: Yeah, it actually, it came in from being on an Ayahuasca retreat. And one of the, the downloads I got during that particular retreat was I had a lot of bad habits, a lot of mindless habits, just like extended playing video games, just doom, all the usual kind of, modern stuff.

And I wanted to change that. And it’s kinda logically, if you’re gonna offload some bad habits, the best way to, to get that to stick is to fill the gap with good habits. So what is the good habit and the encouragement was to do something creative. I used to do film studies at college when I was younger.

And while I’ve been on these retreats, I’d just been doing what everyone does, taking lots of pictures, taking lots of little videos, not quite knowing what to do with it, and then it just kinda came through. Okay, why don’t you. Edit all this stuff together as some sort of travel blog was on, was my first idea or just a kind of blog of my experiences.

And so I did that. I then got the idea to review some of the retreats that I’d been on because by that time I’d been on some really great retreats. I’d bit of some absolutely horrific retreats. And so I thought I wanted to amplify the good ones and call out the bad ones. Yeah I made a few of these retreat review videos also along with a couple of just.

My personal experiences with medicine and yeah, I was kinda surprised it, it took off, it started to get a bit of a following and and people seem to like and resonate with the fact that I wasn’t coming at this from this angle of trying to be a guru or a shaman or just, I’m just like, setting the intro.

I’m just an ordinary person having these extraordinary experiences and people seem to click with that. So it just took off and I started doing more and more content and that’s where it got to.

Sam Believ: Cool story. I think good hap good things. That’s how they happen. They just yeah, all over the place.

Kinda like me getting into this line of work. But what is and I like that reasonability. That’s, I would like to believe I have a similar. Similar way of seeing those things. And then kinda working in this space you talked about great retreats, war, bad retreats. Te tell me your worst ever retreat experience.

Rob: Yeah, no worries. And it’s, it is easy ’cause it was my very first one, so it’s surprising that I came back to to do another one. But yeah, my first retreat experience was in Switzerland. ‘Cause yeah, I wanted to try I live in Switzerland. I wanted to try and do this as. Simply as possible.

So yeah, went with a, an organization called Inner Mastery who is quite big around Europe. They put on a lot of retreats and it was, they’re just complete cowboys. It was the higher space they would pack in as many people as possible. You would be served by, I don’t wanna be too derogatory, but basically like kids who.

With good intentions who wanted to serve the medicine, but they’d paid this organization to be like, become facilitators. And it’s not cheap. The amount I did a video breaking down, like the kind of, it was almost like a Scientology kind of structure of how much you pay them. But yeah, I went to this retreat with it was my wife at the time.

They packed like 50 of us into a room. It was literally shoulder to shoulder. We were like that. They. They didn’t give buckets to vomit. They just gave you like plastic bags to throw up into. And as soon as they were talking, it was because I, I’ve been into psychics like 35 years now, and they were just, it was just full of woo, full of bullshit.

It was just run horribly. It was just one of the most uncomfortable experiences ever. But there was something there where I got a little the medicine was I’ve said not great. But there was something there. I thought, okay, this I’ll explore a little bit more here. So the next retreat I found was a a more local group, like a group of friends.

Basically, we just put it a bit like you described when you first started doing it. And again, I didn’t super connect with the medicine, but I, again, I could see there was something there. So I thought, okay, that I was like four ceremonies in. At that point I thought, okay, I’m gonna give this one last try.

Then I’ll know whether this Aya ask Think is bullshit or not. I thought if I’m gonna do that, let’s go to the source. Went to South America, into the Amazon, and did it there. And that was my lights of, okay, wow, this and that was actually a really great retreat. So that was what I came back and from that like a believer.

And that was about, yeah, roughly about 10 years ago now.

Sam Believ: First of all, congrats on persisting. Yeah. Because, I was getting do so many great things for you, but you could have been like, oh, this is just what it is and I’m gonna bounce. There is definitely in this space, there’s there’s a little too much woo and a lot of people that don’t really know what they’re doing, they kinda use Woo to justify Yeah.

Bad behaviors. I dunno if you wanna talk about that sort, the fluffy, like lots of words and little meaning have you noticed that in those kinds of places?

Rob: Yeah. And al also just the, the, there’s certainly that, there’s certainly places where I been where they’re very much just trying to you’ve basically gotta be a believer.

You’ve gotta believe whatever the, there’s so many different traditions and there’s so many different. Versions. Some are very new agey, some are very culty, some are just very traditional talking around lets hot the plants and mother ayahuasca and I’m fine with all of that.

It’s just on. If I have to join the cult to, to then I’m that point, I’m I’m not issues. I just wanna be there to have my experience. I’m there to certainly experience the tradition, but I don’t wanna feel like I’m being like a, a gun against the head to do it. And then you then you get these things, if you have an experience where you don’t connect with the medicine, oh, it’s ’cause you didn’t believe in mother io.

Ask me enough. It’s because ’cause you’d have faith in the great leader enough. And that kind of stuff. I’d, I just find it really putrid. So the retreats where I’ve had the most benefit is the ones where you really, you’re guided through the experience, but you’re not, like I say, required to fall on, jump into the cult kind of thing.

Sam Believ: Yeah. I totally agree with that with that vision. And what I like to say is a good retreat is where the information comes from. The ayahuasca itself. Yeah. And what the retreat does is they just basically. Help you go through that process, but you obviously had the bad experience, but something that stick to stick into you.

So would you say better Ayahuasca is still better than no Ayahuasca experience or you’d say like better in no ayahuasca

Rob: or just the excellent one? The thing I like to do, particularly with what I’m talking about, retreat centers, you’ve got to, and I think this is difficult for a lot of people, but you’ve gotta pass out the experience with the medicine.

From the actual experience of the center and the people, because you can, you could be at the best, most luxurious center in the world and have a nightmarish experience with the medicine, or you could be in a shack in the woods, one-on-one with some village shaman and have the most transcendent experience ever.

And I think people struggle with that. So say for the horrific retreats I just described earlier, there were people that are having very preferred experiences with the medicine. And when I came back and said this was cowboy-ish, this was run awfully, this was not a good experience.

I got a lot of, criticism for that. Oh no. The come, the medicine’s wonderful. I’m not talking excited about the medicine, the medi medicine experiences over here that doesn’t justify sticking this number of people in room with three facilitators for 50 people. It was, so I try and pull those two things apart.

I do think, yeah, I think even at that shittier sort of retreat center, there was something there in the metastatic. I thought, okay, there’s something here worth exploring, just not with these guys. Yeah, and I would, and I’d encourage anybody to do that. Just it’s, yeah. Don’t I, what I see a lot of is.

Because people are having such a profound experience in medicine, they start to deify a little bit, like particularly with shamans and stuff like that. So in South America, you have this profound medical medicine experience and then it’s like the shaman gave me this. They’re to sort of power, powerful.

You get, shamans put on pedestals and the centers I’ve liked the most is where the shamans are just the most. Going to earth guys they will sit back and say, Hey, what I’m doing is orchestrating the space. Yeah. I am not giving you this experience. Of course I’m serving the medicine, I’m holding the space, I’m making it safe container, but I’m just a dude.

I’m a dude and this is my calling. And I really appreciate that compared to the guys who just wanna be worshiped, which is, again, it, that just goes in all sorts of weird directions. And you start to see yeah, very inappropriate sexual behavior and stuff like that. It’s, yeah it could be a bit messy.

Sam Believ: The ego, spiritual ego. That’s the most important factor. Like when you ask me about our team, that’s what I told you. That’s what I’m most afraid of. And that’s why we filter. Because those people, they also tend to be, they’re very impressive in the way they present themselves. But it’s like once you learn to see them, you’re like no, we don’t want any of that.

Yeah. Tell us about how you got here.

Rob: To hear in particular it’s funny ’cause I’d had a bit of a kind of blind spot to. Yeah, doing ayahuasca in Columbia. I’d say really doing it anywhere outside of Peru. I think that’s where I, that’s where I had my first major experience. I love the Amazon jungle.

I think even if you go to the Amazon and take Ayahuasca out to the equation, it’s just paradise. It’s just such a beautiful location. So there’s definitely a place in my heart for that. But I think, and although I’d, I did experience various different centers around around Peru. In, yeah, in the Sacred Valley, in the jungle still.

I, I was very focused on p Peru and I think a lot of it’s ’cause I really enjoyed the shabo tradition of ceremonies. It’s very different to what happens here, but I just that’s what works me. Stick with that. And so yeah, I never really considered Columbia for for Ayahuasca until you reached out to me.

And is you invited me here to, to the center. And now that I’m here, I see it. I’m just kinda yeah I’m almost cringing a little bit at just, God, why did, I don’t want to, explore more and so to experience a different tradition, which is so different to what I’m used to, but so beautiful when it’s all right.

And I think that’s something I’m gonna have to really make an effort to get across to my audience because I think there is a lot of value in experiencing these different traditions and I think it’s just like with anything you can very easily get into a sort of a comfort zone of what you know.

And because this is great, it must be the best and there’s nothing else right there with experiencing. And I like to think of myself as a bit of a. A bit adventurous in this regard, like trying different traditions. So I’m super grateful that I’ve Yeah, got the opportunity to come here to lair and ex experience this England tradition.

And yeah, it’s beautiful. It’s and now I’m a bit conflicted ’cause there’s a part of me that will want to come back here, but then there’s a part of me that wanna carry on that journey experience both. So it’s interesting. You should do both.

Sam Believ: I try to, but yeah, I like to say, I like to see this analogy.

It’s if IAS is like flour. Then you can do, but you can do so many things with flour. Like you can make dumplings or you can make pizza, or you can make pasta, or you can make bread or pie. Yeah, those are like different traditions. They kinda use it properly and you’ll still fill your belly up, but it’s like in so many different ways and it’s beauty of it that like this entire world and it is just ayahuasca alone, but there’s also other medicines and different traditions and so many of them were lost.

But, so we kinda. We’re lucky that this one did survive. And it’s a, I can’t help but be grateful that this exists because it’s kinda it’s what’s missing in our, lives now in sort of western world, this sort unknown, ’cause we think oh, everything has been discovered. You’re a au you’re like if I would think au I would imagine a person like you, like experimenting and a au like, is like astronaut, right? It’s like someone who explores Yeah. Explore the inner world rather than, so talk to us about that. What is what is it being a psycho note, why did you become one and why should more people, do it as well?

Rob: Yeah the last one’s a tricky I’m I do think it’s not something necessarily for everyone, and I don’t mean that in a gatekeeper kinda way. But it is, you are I think by being a psycho you’re throwing yourself into the precipice in a lot of ways.

But for me, what I just, yeah. I’m from the north of England in Manchester. There was, when I was growing up. LSD mdm a, these were just very common. And so I got into these things at a very young age and purely from a recreational basis, but there was something there particularly that LLSD that just absolutely fascinating with this, just this the sense of peace and connectness.

I just, at least, I love taking like LSD, going to the park and just lying there and just watching the sky move overhead, just feeling the grass. So even without fully having the kind of spiritual vocabulary, I felt like there was something there, even though I wouldn’t have recognized the spiritual aspects of time.

I was very like militantly, atheist, yeah, very, secure the knowledge. Oh yeah, this is, these substances. It’s just a good time. It makes you think, but never really recognizing the deep element to it until quite a few years later where I started having experiences, which I, in hindsight, I came to recognize as like spiritual experiences.

And then I had to think how do I reconcile this with my sort of diehard atheist worldview? And it was that, that took a while for me to be able to put those two words, toge, two worlds together. But for me, I just, that. Once you experience a say a truly psychedelic experience or truly spiritual experience, I would compare it to like, when you have your first orgasm as like a teenager, suddenly the world just opens up you thinking, wow, what is, there is something else here that I’ve it’s just a whole new world, and I just find that fascinating and it’s particularly that you could dive into the same experience and have just such a.

Radically different world, experience each time your world, you can be changed each time. You can discover new stuff about yourself each time. And for me, I’ve always liked that experience of just yeah just being like amazed by. Whatever’s going on in that experience. And I tend to think of it as an inward experience that what I’m experiencing is me, my subconscious.

I don’t really subscribe to ideas of this is aliens be beaming ideas into my head. I flip flop a little bit on some of these worldviews, but even if you’re just taking it that, that this is an inward experience and the depth and richness of that experience is just so vast then is how could you not be fascinated and want to explore more of it?

That’s why I’m a psych ops. And I just feel, yeah, very, just to come back to your point earlier of where we’re talking about the traditions that for, I think we live in a golden age for someone like me from the north, north of Manchester, to be able to get in a metal tube, fly across the world.

Sit with these ancient traditions, be welcomed into these kind of ceremonies, have these mind blowing, soul expanded experiences. It is a privilege. It is a privilege beyond all privileges. I’m just so grateful that, yeah, living this time where I can even know these things exist. If you re rewind the clock 50, 60 years, I would’ve never.

No. So we’ve lived in the perfect age of like information, travel capability just to be able to do this and it’s. Yeah, like I said it is, I feel such gratitude that these tradition, these tribes share these things with us. ’cause it’s amazing.

Sam Believ: Yeah. We also have unique issues as society right now, so I think that it’s all coming at the same time to kind of balance, balance things out.

You obviously came here and I reached out to you. It was pretty synchronistic. I saw your video and you said you’re about to start looking for retreat for, because you’re going through some personal stuff and, yeah. You’re in a pretty low place. That’s why you wanted it. So how do you feel now? Do you feel do you feel better or how do you feel with your

Rob: wellbeing?

Yeah, I feel absolutely, I feel great and I’m, which is not uncommon after retreat, ’cause you are, you certainly get this kind of honeymoon period afterwards. But with what’s happened in the ceremonies this week, I do feel like I’ve bookended a look at a lot of those. It’s been a rough couple of years, I’ll put it that way, without getting too much into the details and it just stripped out a lot of one, one thing I always prided myself on, particularly with the YouTube, but just I always saw myself as a very creative person, a lot of imagination.

I think this look comes across through a lot of my videos and my trip reports. I just really go out there, try to visualize and story tell these experiences. And then to go through what I’ve been through the last two years that just bottomed out to me. And all I was focusing on was legal shit and just problems going on to life.

And this week I’ve, first day I felt like I’d managed to package a lot of that stuff up, put it in the rear view mirror, but also I just felt that creative spark and just kicking it again. And for me that was, it was a major component. ’cause I was. I just love create, I love storytelling so much that I just didn’t feel like myself for the last couple of years, and that’s why I, my channel’s been on hiatus while all this legal stuff’s been going on, and that’s one of the reasons was because I just had to keep my head down while I had some, like this legal case.

But the other thing was, yeah, I just energetically just didn’t have it though. I want, my imagination just wasn’t firing and I’m sat there in ceremonies. I’m just. The storytelling is just kicking off in my brain. I’m like, and and that storytelling, it’s, we’ve talked a lot about integration in this retreat.

That’s how I integrate stuff. It’s, I think that’s how humans integrate stuff. We are telling ourselves a story, a about what, what’s happening, about how our lives fit together. I think when you can’t make that story make sense, that’s where you’re not integrated, but. For me, just be able to sit on these things and work through.

That’s why one of the reasons I talk to a camera, I’m talking to myself, I am I’ve turned the camera on and I start talking to it, and that’s me. Making sense in real time of what’s going on with me. So yeah, this retreat’s been absolutely awesome. I also got to share it with my brother my older brother.

And that’s, again, it’s just been a privilege to, to spend that amount of time. I’ve not spent this much time with my brother for 30 odd years, and now we’re sharing things in spectacular, intimate ways as two adult, men, I’m in the late forties, eighties, early fifties. Now we’re sharing stuff about our childhood, about our lives just about our feelings, and it’s been beautiful.

Sam Believ: Yeah. It was lovely to see you and your brother and you were you definitely, maybe because you were together and you kinda went into a bit of a child mode. I think it is. It’s very beautiful and profound. And we had daughter with her mother here, and sometimes we have the entire family’s house.

I think that’s. It’s absolutely amazing thing to do with your family members or loved ones and friends, and

Rob: it’s amazing. But it’s also I must admit there was an element of trepidation around it because I think it could, obviously the ideal is that it goes in, into the kind of thing like I’m just had with my brother, but it can also, go into a very uncomfortable space.

I’ve had that when I was I’ve done retreats before with my ex-wife and we just didn’t. Click at all. In fact, we just end up in very different places. One person has an amazing ceremony, the other person’s had a shitty ceremony. Yeah, it can flip around. So the energies can be very weird though.

Sam Believ: I’m glad your creativity is back and hopefully you’re gonna make a nice video about your experience. I look, I’m definitely looking forward seeing it and but what were you talking about? Going through rough times? I am myself also going through rough times similar to yours and there’s two big problems I’m dealing with at the same time. And I think I would’ve been like completely debilitated, if not for Ayahuasca. Yeah. It’s like I just, whenever I’m like, I can’t take it anymore, I’m, it’s life is too much. I’m overworked and overstressed. I just go back, sit with it and it lifts me up and says do this, do that.

And I of course it’s a luxury and not everyone can live it now as retreat and like I was doing the one ceremony a month, but. Like one, one good retreat a year, I think in. Make most people a bit more saner. I’m surprised. So we got a bit delayed with our interview and now the bus is about to come.

I’m surprised not here yet. So I wanna talk a little bit about more psychotic things. Like I, I looked through your YouTube channel, you did interesting experiments like taking DMT for every day, entire month. Yeah. Let’s talk a little bit about DMT. Obviously it’s an active com, one of the active com compounds in the Ayahuasca, but people take it separately.

What did you learn from that? How do you compare doing DMT in a sort of more modern wake as opposed to doing an ayahuasca ceremony? Let’s talk about

Rob: that. Yeah, so the way I would differentiate between the two things, and I’ll just say, first off, I would not. Really advocate for taking ayahuasca at home on my own and that sort of cycle.

I, I don’t do that. I only really only ever do that on retreat. ’cause I think it’s just the community aspect the guided ceremony aspect is important and experience. But for me, DMT on its own is, I think that is almost like one of the most perfect psych art experiences because it’s got a quite short duration.

It’s very potent and it’s just I see DMT as pure consciousness exploration. It’s just consciousness explodes outwards and you just have this experience that’s just beyond imagination. And I think there’s that in itself. It’s awe inspiring. It just reminds you of the wonder and awe of the world.

And I think like you said, when you’re having. Personal problems and stuff going on, just be reminded of how amazing life could be. It’s great for the 30 days thing, one of the one of the questions I was kinda asking myself was, is the value in having that kind of experience, like on set of a daily basis, so let’s say is there value in sitting and meditating every day for 15 minutes?

I would say, yeah. What if during that meditation. What if during that meditation, what if during that meditation you could teleport to the International Space Station and look down on Earth for five minutes a day and just see the totality of civilization of the world, and just have that experience of looking down on all of everything, just for five minutes a day.

Or tell Port to the top of Mo Everest or just look out and just feel that complete or wonder is the value in that. I think there is, I think there’s something there where, just to be able to remind yourself on that daily basis, which I think is, it’s one of the goals of meditation to sit there and just feel completely within yourself on a daily basis.

So that’s what I saw, set it to do. And that was the sort of what I got from it. Just it wasn’t really, I didn’t see it so much as kinda something particularly hardcore, like really pushing the frontier, like blowing my mind in like sometimes I only do quite small doses. Some days I was doing larger doses.

It was a mix. But that experience of just being humble before the universe every day as, as part of a daily practice I found it incredibly beneficial. Yeah, so we could talk a lot, but the bus is here, so what we should do some is when I’m back. Let’s set up let’s do a video thing.

Let’s one we can go deeper into all the psych

Sam Believ: stuff. Sounds good. So Rob, thank you for coming. Thank you for pleasure your psychedelically Virgin brother to us. I’m glad he had a great experience as well. And I hope that’s not the last time I see you. It will be right. Definitely. Guys, you are listening to our podcast.

As always, we do the host and believe and I’ll see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you’d like to support us and psychedelic Renaissance at large, please follow us and leave us a like wherever it is you’re listening. Share this episode with someone who will benefit from this information.

Nothing in this podcast is intended as medical advice, and it is for educational and entertainment purposes only. This episode is sponsored by Lara Ayahuasca Retreat. At Lara, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity. Lara Connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you.

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with , a clinical psychologist, licensed alcohol and drug counselor, and co-founder of the Psychedelic Society of Vermont. With decades of experience in addiction, anxiety, and depression treatment, Rick bridges traditional recovery models with modern psychedelic-assisted therapy, drawing from both personal recovery and clinical practice.

We touch upon topics of:

• Rick’s early addiction and path into recovery (00:50–05:30)
• Addiction, youth, and the challenge of getting sober early (03:50–06:00)
• Replacing addiction with meaning, purpose, and spirituality (07:48–11:00)
• Psychedelics, sobriety, and common fears around relapse (12:14–16:05)
• Therapy vs retreat models and why multiple paths can work (17:02–19:30)
• Integration, spiritual bypassing, and real long-term change (21:08–26:00)
• AA, community, and where recovery models succeed or fail (33:05–36:40)
• How psychedelics disrupt addictive patterns and cravings (37:46–40:37)

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to http://www.lawayra.com

Find more about Rick Barnett at vermontpsychedelic.org, on LinkedIn and Instagram at @DrRickBarnett, and through the Solquinox conference in Vermont.

Transcript

Sam Believ: You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast.com.

Rick Barnett: What do psychedelics do? We know that they are interrupters, they’re disruptors of patterns that are habitual patterns. Our ego, our personality, our behaviors, our beliefs, our very entrenched, and when we take a psychedelic, whether. Ayahuasca or even nons, psychedelic psychedelics like Ketamine, MDMA, basically they’re all disruptors.

They disrupt habits, patterns, beliefs, all that stuff. And I think the mechanism there for depression, for anxiety, for trauma, for OCD, for alcohol or other drug addictions, gambling like psychedelics, disrupt, and get in there and fundamentally. Tweak something deep inside of us. Like you said earlier, you’ve had people come down for your Ayahuasca retreat and, or maybe they had an alcohol problem before and they, you get a call from them a week or two later and they’re like, yeah, I just stopped drinking.

It’s just not appealing to me anymore. We can’t really account for why that is, but obviously something changed deep inside them. This is once a very compelling. Force this craving, this need insatiable desire to fill the void by using a substance or engaging in a, an addictive behavior. And that somehow that mysteriously dissipates it, it goes away.

It’s like something gets in there and says, actually. You don’t need that anymore. You’re okay. You are enough. You know we are the medicine and you have a community of people and you have this new outlook on life that really helps you see that. Now, do some people relapse afterwards? Yes. It’s not cure all.

Sam Believ: Hi guys, and welcome to Ayahuasca podcast. As always, we do the whole assembly of today. I’m interviewing Dr. Rick Barnett a clinical psychologist and licensed alcohol and drug counselor with decades of experience helping people achieve and maintain freedom from addiction, anxiety, and depression. Dr.

Burnett is a leading voice at intersection of psychology and substance use. Disorder treatment, and he specializes in psychedelic assisted therapy, having completed extensive training and modalities involving in MDMA, psilocybin and Ketamine. As the co-founder of Psychedelic Society of Vermont, he advocates for balanced, innovative approach to recovery that blends harm reduction with traditional abstinence-based methods.

This episode is sponsored by Laira Ayahuasca Retreat. At Laira, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity. Ra, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you. Rick, welcome to the show. Thank you, Sam. Happy to be here. Rick I really your story is very unique. You you yourself dealt with addiction and you yourself you started very early, like you were already an addict when you were at 10, which is impressive in itself.

So not only. Having this, but then recovering and now helping other people walk us through that journey.

Rick Barnett: Yeah, I wouldn’t say I was fully addicted when I was 10 years old, but I believe that at the age of 10 when I first used tobacco and that really was a foundational event in my life.

I, I’ve heard of people using other drugs as young as, 8, 9, 10, 11 years old. Due to various circumstances, but in my case, yeah I started using tobacco when I was 10 years old. And then alcohol by the age of 11, cannabis age 12. By the time I was 13, I was getting arrested for underage drinking at high school parties.

By the time I was 15 I’d used cocaine, M-D-M-A-L-S-D mushrooms, and for the preceding five years until the age I was 20. All of that just accelerated, intensified in terms of amounts and frequency and got me into a lot of trouble. And I think psychedelics as being a part of that, journey both opened my mind to another view of reality, but also was involved in, unhealthy experiences really dangerous experiences. So it’s a paradoxical situation in my case to to be, thrust into using a lot of alcohol and drugs at a young age. And then to come out the other side relatively early as well.

The age of 20. Really, I’m sorry about the background here. The the age of 20 really starting to get to the other side of that and enter into recovery. But I really do credit my use of LSD at the age of 15 with having given me the. Open-mindedness and perspective that enabled me to be receptive to the message of recovery when I was 20 years old.

I think without that I might have just rejected treatment and recovery pathways altogether. So it’s a ironic situation there.

Sam Believ: In a way, psychedelics are being lumped in together with all the other drugs in this drug category, but it can be a blessing in the case. In your case, it was a blessing because.

You just took this other drug, but it turned out to be a medicine for you in this occasion. Because of your youth with this process what do you think is different in recovery for someone studying that early? Obviously your brain is still very young and malleable.

Do you reckon it it’s, it makes it easier to recover or on, on the contrary.

Rick Barnett: That’s a great question. I found that when I was 20 years old and looking at the the life I had lived up to that point, and looking at the pathway in front of me, I felt it was extremely difficult at the age of 20 to extract myself from a lifestyle, a social situation, an age.

An age group where, partying, college that whole culture was just rampant. And I think it. It is very difficult, I think for people who are young and who get, into these experiences, addiction type experiences really early on, it’s very difficult to pull yourself out of that and find a something that’s appealing about being sober.

It can be very difficult at that age ’cause everybody, your in your age group is partying and having a good time, and all of a sudden I was like, okay, I can’t do that anymore. So what do I do with myself that’s different than somebody maybe in their forties or fifties who you look around and there’s a lot of people in their forties and fifties who actually aren’t drinking or using drugs as much as they did when they were younger.

So I wouldn’t say that it’s any easier because in that case you’ve got even more decades of. Unhealthy use of alcohol or substances. So trying, in later years trying to get into a path of recovery can be very difficult as well. So it’s hard to say. I know for me it was very challenging.

There’s a lot of other young people who were trying to get sober at the same time. I was getting sober and they didn’t make it. Several people have died and it’s it’s very difficult at that age to pull yourself out of that culture,

Sam Believ: yeah. Thank you for sharing, Rick. I actually I’m gonna share a story that I never shared before when I was about 17 years old and I was in, in my first year of it’s basically college, but it’s a college.

You start early. It’s like profession college. I was starting to become marine mechanical engineer. So I was I was kinda, it was kinda last years of school, but combined with already some college curriculum and, I always liked computer games, but I was I always had a good relationship with them and I could still study, but then World of Warcraft came out.

I don’t know if you ever heard about this. Yeah. But it was this online game that was extremely addictive. And in just one month, all of my grade, I went from being the best student in class. All my grades fell. I was almost expelled. Like I, I just completely stopped going to school. I got so addicted to it, so I don’t know where, but I got this.

Strength and energy to quit. And it was the hardest thing I’ve ever done in my life. Because as you described, not only you’re removing the object of your addiction, but you’re also losing all of your friends because that’s always spoke about that. Like I was, there wasn’t much drinking. Some people played and drank at the same time, but there wasn’t much drinking.

I, I was always cautious with drinking ’cause my dad’s an alcoholic. But this one slipped through and for a few weeks. I was just burn, burn, like, how do you call it? White knuckling it. I was going to say bare knuckling it. So yeah, I was white knuckling it and I just I managed to pull out of it, and then I tried to pull some of my friends out of it and they didn’t.

And as you describe, it didn’t kill them, but some of them spent. Eight to 10 years playing. And they basically lost their youth. Yeah. They didn’t have a girlfriend. Their studies were ruined, their careers were ruined. But as I was trying to help them, they actually hated me. So I was early on that path of annoying people by giving them advice.

But, so that’s an imp an important part of addiction. Not just removing that. Substance or behavior you’re addicted to, but also you gotta put something in its place. Is there something you can talk about in that direction?

Rick Barnett: I think that’s in part why my use of psychedelics helped me so much in those early years early days and weeks and months of finding this new path of sobriety or recovery is that, I was intrigued by the spiritual side of things.

I was intrigued by. Things that are less materialistic and more, spiritual in nature, not religious. And there’s a whole movement, the spiritual not religious movement. And that gets into sort of new age stuff. And I’m not necessarily talking about that, but my own experience with LSD and then what was the meaning and purpose of my life at that point?

Transitioning from this lifestyle of, hedonistic illegal, all kinds of craziness into a new. A new realm of being spiritual concepts, psychological concepts, health promoting concepts. All that stuff was really appealing to me, and that’s what I think.

Took the place of finding the meaning and purpose in partying, which was really enjoyable for me. I loved the life that I lived, I loved the craziness of it all. I loved the social life, the everything and I knew that it was killing me. So I knew, early on that was not a path I could.

Continue to travel if I wanted to live a longer life. Basically it’s like the 180 degrees opposite of, instead of, pursuing partying and that whole lifestyle, I had to pursue something as meaningful if not more meaningful to counterbalance that, that destructive side. I was fortunate to be, to have had the, to have the personality or mindset or experiences that enabled me to find literature. Finding the program of and the material and the Alcoholics Anonymous, the spiritual side of things. Very interesting. Not from a godlike perspective, but just psychologically speaking and other books like.

The power of the subconscious mind, the road less traveled. Things like the power of positive thinking, all these classic self-help books back in the day that basically paved the way for me to become a psychologist. As I continued in my recovery and pursued my, my academic my academic pursuits.

Yeah, that’s pretty much what replaced it. It’s hard to say at first. It’s easy to say I’m a thrill seeker. I like, sensation seeking, I like the adrenaline junkie kind of stuff. You think you could just replace it with high risk activities that aren’t alcohol and drug use, but that’s a little bit of a too simplistic, it had to go deeper than that for me.

So that’s pretty much the path that I chose and that sort of was able to stick for me that, that worked for me. I don’t know if it works for everybody that worked for me.

Sam Believ: So you psychedelics helped you and you were able to replace drugs with psychedelics and find that more spiritual side of things and what not quite.

Rick Barnett: What about Not immediately, Sam, just to be clear, I didn’t go from getting sober at 20 years old to using psychedelics for spiritual development at that age. I didn’t come back to psychedelics until, six or seven years ago. Pretty much.

Sam Believ: Okay. Okay. So yeah, it was a process. But let’s say obviously I see it a lot in, in, in our work.

People come, let’s say they’re addicted to alcohol or drugs. They work with ayahuasca. Something shifts in them, and the addiction almost magically goes away. It’s very interesting because some people come for other reasons. And they go back home and they report to us later that they just stopped drinking because they just don’t want to anymore.

So obviously I come from the perspective knowing that traditional use of psychedelic or therapeutic use of psychedelics can be very helpful in addiction. But what about those people that are addicted to alcohol? So they quit it and they white knuckle it, and now they avoid anything that can be seen as quote unquote drug.

What would you tell those people that prevent this potentially very healing modality because they’re afraid that they’re gonna get addicted. Like people ask me like, oh, aren’t you gonna get addicted to ayahuasca? Or some, something like that. Like what? Any comments on that?

Rick Barnett: Yeah, that’s a very common, that’s a common concern amongst people who, I would even say myself, like I couldn’t imagine.

In those early years of my sobriety and my recovery, if someone had said, here, try some ayahuasca. This will help you on your spiritual path. I would’ve been like. Oh no. I’ve been there, done that. Used all the LSD, used all the mushrooms, used all the M-D-M-A-I could think of that I thought was helping me on the spiritual path, but it was doing nothing but destroying my life.

So I would’ve been that kind of person who said no, I can’t. I can’t alter my consciousness in any way. But now, many years into recovery and I am somebody who believes regardless of your. The stage that somebody’s at, let’s say someone’s in active addiction, they’re in early recovery, an abstinence-based recovery.

They’re in, maybe they’ve got a year or five years without using any alcohol or drugs, or maybe they’ve been sober with any al without any mind altering substances for 20 years. I would say to them now, I would say, don’t dis disregard this. Pathway altogether. Just hold on a second.

Where we are now as as the research has been coming out over the last 10 plus years, even though ayahuasca and psilocybin and peyote has been around for centuries, millennia it’s more recently where at least in Western society, we’re developing a model where this isn’t just haphazard. Recreational, crazy use of Iowa, let’s go use ayahuasca and see what it does.

Or let’s go take some LSD and go to a concert or eat some mushrooms and, hang out by a campfire and shoot the shit. It’s really it’s really a situation I’m sure. What you have in your retreat the retreats that I’ve been part of legally and in settings where these.

Substances, molecules, sacraments, whatever you wanna call them, compounds. Drugs are being taken. And in such a way that there’s a lot of thoughtfulness that goes into it. So if you’re in any phase of recovery, if you’re, if someone’s curious about ayahuasca, five M-E-O-D-M-T, psilocybin, MDMA, ketamine, any of these substances, as long as you’re being thoughtful about it, you’re doing your research, you have trusted people who you’re listening to who may be preparing you for an experience that are creating a safe environment for you to have the experience.

That are providing follow-up care for you after the experience. That’s very different than oh, you’re gonna get addicted to ayahuasca, or now you’re gonna ruin your sobriety because you’ve now used the mind altering substances and you know you have to start from scratch. It’s a very different paradigm that doesn’t get talked about enough.

And I think it’s really a shame when there’s people out there who are saying, oh no, you can’t use psychedelics. You’re sober and that’s gonna destroy your life, that’s gonna destroy your sobriety. That it’s not true as long as someone is. Very thoughtful. If they’re considering having a psychedelic experience as part of their addiction recovery process, as part of their sobriety journey it’s not only possible.

It’s, and I think for a lot of people it can be extremely beneficial.

Sam Believ: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely don’t mean for people that have been sober for 10 years to go and, buy some street drugs, potentially laced with like street psychedelics, potentially laced with something and then get addicted. Again, I’m talking about like people who are still struggling and yes, engaging with either a therapeutic approach or a traditional approach in a very intentional container.

What is the role of therapy in this in the work with psychedelics? Obviously psychedelic therapy. How the two compliment each other

Rick Barnett: it’s a very important question and it’s very much debated in the field right now as I’m participating in all kinds of different discussions with different people and different, with different backgrounds.

And, given that I’m a psychologist, I’ve been trained in the Western medical model, clearly I have an appreciation for therapy for a medical. System that provides the kind of supports and safeguards and ethics and standards that are important for safety and, to help people with whatever they’re dealing with.

However, it’s not the only way to do it. So therapy, psychedelic assisted therapy is one model. What we think of when we hear psychedelic assisted therapy. We’re thinking of like a licensed therapist or licensed healthcare provider who would be providing preparation, dosing administration and integration services in the context of a clinic, an office, a research setting, a hospital, whatever that is, and that’s only one.

Model, and you know this well because you run a retreat and that’s, a retreat is not psychedelic assisted psychotherapy. And the retreat model is a very good model for some people. The psychotherapy assisted, psychedelic experiences is a good model for some people. An experience.

With trusted friends who have ex, who have extensive experience with a certain compound who can provide a safe environment that isn’t a retreat center, but isn’t also a therapy office. That can be a model as well. There’s multiple models, all have their strengths and potential weaknesses. Psych, psychedelic assisted therapy has its downsides as well.

Retreat centers can have their downsides as well, and doing it with friends in a, in a. Somewhat thoughtful or recreational way can be positive, but also can be negative. So there isn’t a one size fits all approach. I just want to be clear. When I’m talking to you or other people, I’m not advocating exclusively for one model.

In fact I’m quite, I critical of the medical model. Even though I’m a, classically trained, psychologist and work within the Western medical system, I can be very critical of it. I believe that there’s. There’s lots of ways to do it safely, ethically, effectively, and it’s not once one approach isn’t for everybody.

Sam Believ: Yeah. Maybe there is still more models to be discovered that, that are maybe combining the benefits of both. We in the retreat model, we basically in a clinic. Model you, you ground yourself in, in, in psychological knowledge and in the retreat model you ground yourself in indigenous knowledge and just tradition And bo both get legitimacy from the, from those two different sources.

But we do try to meddle a bit with a more modern things like for example. We work with brain mapping and brain training with QUG brain maps. We try to provide group therapy style integration, word circles, and also provide people with an integration course and then also when they go back home for those who choose to we pair them up with the integration coaches slash therapists.

Unfortunately, not as many people want it as, as it would, as it should be. So it’s like there’s this interesting thing where people don’t seem to like integration that much because it’s not as sexy as a psychedelic experience. So let’s talk about integration. I know it’s a topic you like to talk about a lot.

Rick Barnett: Yeah, mark Al’s book, I don’t know if you know that book that came out a couple years ago called the Psychedelic Integration Spanish guy.

Sam Believ: Yeah. I’ve interviewed Mark a few episodes ago. It didn’t come out yet, but he is, he knows a lot about integration.

Rick Barnett: Yeah. Yeah. I would definitely defer to him.

That book is fantastic. Psychedelic integration, big shout out to to Mark. I’ve never met him before. Thought about inviting him to Vermont for our conference, but, it’s such a big topic for me. I know it’s not as sexy as the psychedelic experience itself. Everybody puts so much hype and expectation into the psychedelic experience itself, and certainly that can be a catalyst for change, right?

That’s that’s what it’s all about. So there’s no getting around that piece of it. However. People’s egos come back online and they’re, they go back to their lifestyle and change doesn’t always happen automatically and sometimes we need to do things. To nurture, to nourish, to cultivate, to practice whatever downloads or experiences we had as part of the psychedelic journey itself, or the preparing for it, what are we doing on a daily basis that could be nudging ourselves towards.

The kind of changes we wanna see in our life. And that’s just life, that’s just life. We wanna live our lives in such a way that we’re trying to practice new daily disciplines or reengage with previous disciplines that may have gotten. Stale over time or stagnant like a meditation practice or a yoga practice or certain readings or writings that we’ve done.

We can go back to these practices with a new, with new eyes and new. New perspectives, or we can start these activities with new eyes and new perspectives to see if they can help produce the changes long term that we want to see. And I think that’s what integration is all about for me.

It’s like trying to continue to live into some of the, the deeper experiences that are, that get generated from these, from the psychedelic the acute psychedelic experience itself. And it’s not always easy. And it doesn’t mean that, there’s a phrase, and I know you know it, it’s called once you get the message, hang up the phone.

I don’t know who’s attributed to that who we attributed to that quote, but once you get the message, hang up the phone, which is like. Once you’ve had a psychedelic experience that’s profound. You don’t need to have any more psychedelic experiences. You need to go out and do the work. But that’s not always true.

People can have a powerful psychedelic experience and learn something from it and make some changes, and maybe they want to go back and they want have another psychedelic experience, maybe with a different molecule, a different compound. And that’s okay as long as it doesn’t, transition into something that’s just, this kind of addictive craving seeking, spiritual bypassing or like this yeah. This compulsive use. But I think there’s integration itself has a way of helping us pace our our progress in the changes that we wanna make. And so it’s a complicated and very broad topic, but I do think it’s extremely important if.

All phases of psychedelic experiences are important. I think the preparation phase is super important. Even the pre-preparation phase. You know what, I don’t know what your experience was, but the first time you ever heard about ayahuasca or got a glimpse of what that might be like, there’s something in your soul, in your spirit that got activated and curious.

That’s not even preparation, that’s just some pre-preparation intuition thing that comes to you. That’s just as important as the preparation, which is just as important as the psychedelic experience, which is just as important as integration. So it’s a whole circle that we just continue to roll through and, and learn along the way until we die.

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LA Wire Connect. Heal. Grow L-A-W-A-Y-R a.com. Yeah, it’s the process of seeds germinating, the seed was planted and then for me it took about three or four years. I had a good question for you, but for some reason it’s gimme a second.

Yeah, no I wanted to share this. It is it’s interesting with ayahuasca that. If some people abuse psychedelics, why they do it too often with that ask. You can’t really do it because if it gives you a clear homework and then you don’t do it and you come back eventually it’ll be like, okay, what’s going on here?

It didn’t do homework, and it’ll give you a bad trip. So it’s like a strict grandmother spirit. So it’s an interesting part of it. How is integration different for people that are dealing with addiction specifically?

Rick Barnett: I think when it comes to addiction and somebody who’s on a path towards living a healthy lifestyle, going from active addiction to transitioning into something that is more like a sober lifestyle.

And what I mean by sober is not necessarily a total abstinence, but just sober as in something like taking life seriously. Levelheadedness clarity of thought. The gravity of our lives and the purpose and meaning of our lives. Being sober minded doesn’t necessarily mean abstinence based, and in that context, I think that when it comes to psychedelic integration or integration from psychedelic experiences, we want to be developing and integrating our own understanding of what.

A healthy lifestyle would look like. Psychedelics can provide these profound experiences and then they’re done. And yet we still have the intention or desire to change or be healthy or live a healthy lifestyle. So trying to develop our own understanding for ourselves of what a healthy recovery or sobriety.

Lifestyle would look like involves, ongoing, connection to community members, ongoing internal work, whether it’s with a therapist or meditation or journaling. Harnessing within us the desire for freedom. One of the things that I like to talk about. Is that the opposite of addiction is not only connection, but really the opposite of addiction is connection to health and healthy people and healthy behaviors as well as freedom.

The addiction itself is slavery. Addiction itself is being addicted to something is meaning. You’re being dictated to by this behavior, by this substance. And the opposite of that is really freedom. And we achieve freedom, I think by. Really connecting with ourselves, with spirit, with other people who are traveling the same path.

So integration really involves those three, three elements, connecting to others, connecting to spirit, and connecting to ourselves in new ways that that develop our sense of freedom in inside ourselves and in the world.

Sam Believ: Why? Why do people. Why do some people get addicted to things and others don’t?

What is that addictive personality? What are the underlying psychological patterns that cause them to in people?

Rick Barnett: It’s co it’s a complicated question and there’s no real answer to that. Addiction is very diverse. You have people who are extroverts and introverts who develop addiction.

You have people who are shy, depressed, quiet who develop addiction. You have people who have a lot of anxiety or OCD. That develop addiction. You have people who have trauma and trauma’s, a big buzzword and a lot of attention towards trauma these days. But not everybody who’s had traumatic experiences in their life go on to develop addiction.

So we can’t just say all addiction comes from trauma has been popularized. Recently, so it’s such a diverse subject. They’ve researchers and clinicians have tried to identify like an addictive personality disorder for years, and because there’s so many different variables that play into why somebody goes on to develop a real addiction, that it’s just impossible just to just define a, an addictive personality disorder. There are certainly personality traits or tendencies or biological dispositions that might be risk factors for developing addiction. If you have a father and a grandfather who has alcoholism, you’re that much more likely to develop alcoholism.

If you grew up in an environment where there’s addiction around you, you’re that much more likely to develop an addiction, but it isn’t a guarantee. So it’s really. It’s really hard to say. It’s just different for everybody. I know my story’s different than a lot of people’s stories because I didn’t have any major traumas when I was a kid, and yet here I was going on to develop an addiction very early in life and, for all by all accounts, my childhood was.

Pretty privileged. So that’s a strange thing when you think of people who develop addiction as oh, people who are, impoverished or homeless or have, been physically or sexually abused. And certainly that is true, but that’s just, it doesn’t explain at all. So it’s a very, it’s very complicated question and it’s very difficult to say who goes on to develop an addiction, and then also how can we predict if someone will be able to achieve.

Recovery, long-term recovery, that’s also very difficult to to predict.

Sam Believ: So if someone’s listening to this episode and they are addicted to, let’s say, alcohol, that’s the most common one. Somebody’s listening and they’re addicted. What should they do? What is the good path?

Rick Barnett: First of all, ask for help.

That’s the hardest, that’s the hardest thing for people to do, to ask for help and reach out. And it, asking for help is a form of surrender. Not surrender. Surrender, like you’re just giving up everything and just being, taken over by some agency or organization or group of people and they’re just gonna brainwash you to, to do whatever.

But really just deciding internally, I need help. I can’t do this alone to ask for help. Please. I think everybody who’s listening, if you feel like you have a problem with alcohol or you know you’re an alcoholic ask for help. Help is available. And there’s a lot of pathways that you’ll be, suggested to follow and.

You have to determine with loved ones, with your support system even if you don’t have loved ones or a support system, trying to lean into your intuition and see which path might be right for you. That might be a psychedelic experience if you have access to it in a healthy and, safe and effective way.

It may be going to a treatment center, it may be seeing a therapist. It may be, going off to a desert island and, detoxing on your own or from alcohol. I wouldn’t recommend that because it’s dangerous if you stop cold Turkey and you’re drinking a lot. But there’s a lot of different pathways and I do believe that psychedelics provide a new pathway for some people who may not have considered it.

Sam Believ: One of the pathways obviously is aa. I like to say there’s a missing a, there’s one more a they need, which is ayahuasca, but obviously I’m very biased. What do you think about aa good aspects of it and maybe some drawbacks.

Rick Barnett: Yeah, I’m partial to aa.

It’s how I got sober. And so I have a lot strong affinity and affection for the that program, but I know it’s also not for everybody. And I think the strengths of the AA model as it exists, like in vivo, in natural settings, not through necessarily court mandated AA or. Legally mandated AA or aa that’s shoved down your throat at a treatment center.

But as it exists in communities, AA is free. It’s widely accessible. A lot of people in there have been through it. They can relate, they’re supportive. So you have this sort of instant built-in community if you’re willing to be open to, sitting in a room with strangers, which is very difficult for people, and listening to the message there.

A lot of people find it quite uplifting and is it inspirational and motivating and supportive to find the kind of change that they want. And like I said, it’s free, it’s widely available, it’s all over the world, and it contains a lot of psychological and spiritual principles, which I think are essential as components of a healthy recovery process.

The drawbacks, unfortunately, is that. AA itself gets mixed up with, like I said before, court mandated treatment, which makes people resent AA meetings. People are exposed to AA through certain organizations that. Are a bit dogmatic and hardcore when it comes to taking some of the principles in AA to extremes, which is was never meant to be done.

So people can get, rightfully I guess pretty caught up on concepts of turning your will and life over to the care of a higher power and the word God. And this idea of hitting bottom and total surrender and, we Americans in particular, we are this sort of fiercely independent people with, have this strong philosophy around self will and independence and we can do things on our own.

And there’s something about AA for some of those people that really just turns them off, which is, I think, unfortunate, but understandable. So there are drawbacks for some people, whether it’s the way in which they find AA or some of the people they encounter in AA that are very dogmatic. Some people in AA would just flat out say, if you use.

A psychedelic drug, you’re no longer sober. You have to start over and count days all over again. And I think that’s just really unfortunate. That’s just misinformed in today’s day and age. But but I’m a, in general, I’m a big fan of that model. The model is like a community-based model.

If you think about the psychedelic world, think about the retreat that you run, all the people that you’ve met through your experience with. Second, there’s a community out there that is there are safe and effective and ethical. People in the psychedelic community that are really supportive and can help us.

We help each other on this path. Same thing in aa, but there’s also bad actors, right? There’s bad actors in the psychedelic space. Just like there’s dogmatic and, old school people in aa. But the community piece of it is really important.

Sam Believ: Yeah, no community is extremely important.

It’s a big part of the healing that people achieve. Even here with Ayahuasca, like I would say it’s, it almost feels sometimes equally as powerful as Ayahuasca itself. And with ai, it’s interesting that the dogma is interesting because the, one of the founders, or I believe the original founder, bill Wilson he got very curious about LSD and he was actually seeing a lot of potential in it.

It’s just that, that happens sometimes dogma. I guess there’s positive things about dogma as well but yeah. For those who do choose to work with psychedelics in their recovery what do you think is the mechanism, like how do psychedelics make it easier or maybe better or faster?

Like what is the benefits of that path specifically and. What’s the mechanism in your opinion?

Rick Barnett: Again, I think it goes back to any stage of active addiction or early, mid, or late stage recovery process. What do psychedelics do? We know that they are interrupters, they’re disruptors of patterns, right?

That are our habitual patterns, our ego, our personality, our behaviors, our beliefs. Are very entrenched and when we take a psychedelic, whether it’s ayahuasca or even nons, psychedelic psychedelics like Ketamine, MDMA, basically they’re all disruptors. They disrupt habits, patterns, beliefs, all that stuff and I think the mechanism there for.

Depression for anxiety, for trauma, for OCD, for alcohol or other drug addictions. Gambling like psychedelics, disrupt and get in there and fundamentally tweak something deep inside of us. Like you said earlier, you’ve had people come down for your Ayahuasca retreat and. Maybe they had an alcohol problem before and they, you get a call from them a week or two later and they’re like, yeah, I just stopped drinking.

It’s just not appealing to me anymore. We can’t really account for why that is, but obviously something changed deep inside them. This is once a very compelling force, this craving, this need to this. Insatiable desire to, to fill the void by using a substance or engaging in a, an addictive behavior, and that somehow that mysteriously dissipates it, it goes away.

It’s like something gets in there and says, actually, you don’t need that anymore. You’re okay. You are enough. We are the medicine and you have a community of people and you have this new outlook on life that really. Helps you see that? Now, do some people relapse afterwards? Yes.

It’s not a cure all. I had a person I know went down to Mexico had just gotten off methadone and was still struggling with their addiction, but they went to do Ibogaine in Mexico. And about a month after they got back from that experience, they overdosed and died. So it’s not a cure all.

It’s not. And I don’t know why that is. This person had a good community, good supports but it was very sad and tragic. And that is just, again, it’s not, it’s meant as a tool. It is a disruptor. It’s a massive interrupter, whether it’s depression, addiction, anxiety, that’s the mechanism that, that, that is at play, but how that actually unfolds after the psychedelic experience, there’s.

There’s got to be other things in place to help, maintain that, that change.

Sam Believ: Yeah. No, no matter how much we’d like it to be, but there are no magic pills. It’s it’s, there’s always gonna be a lot of work. Some things definitely help but you still need to do the work. Like I’m personally right now going through a lot of things like both in my relationship and in work, and I’m.

Really struggling. And I come to Ayahuasca and it lifts me up. And then it says okay, now do this and you have to do the work. I have to actually sit with my staff. It doesn’t just fix everything immediately, even though it’s priceless. When you’re in a really low place to have this, push and to feel better even for get your, get yourself some breathing space. And regarding addiction and specifically alcohol. I, it, I have a episode number nine with a guy named Damon, which describes his experience coming here and then coming here with his wife, just out of curiosity and then coming back and a few months later realizing he stopped drinking and he just doesn’t want to.

So for those who are interested, you can check it out. It’s episode number nine. So you said that you’re intrigued also by spiritual side of things. I’ve had an episode a few episodes ago. I had a conversation with Simon ruffle from Aya Sciences and he’s, he works with VO shamans and he was describing to them the clinical model of use of psychedelics.

And the shaman was saying like who’s there? And in the, in a clinical setting, who is, who’s the shaman, who is like doing the spiritual side of work? And when he explained that there, there is no person like this, there the shaman was like, oh, like this is reckless. What do you think about, should therapists that work with psychedelics be trained a little bit in shamanism or what do you, what are your opinion about the spiritual side of psychedelic.

Rick Barnett: Work? I think it works both ways. I do believe that the better therapists in the psychedelic space are those therapists who have had some kinds of spiritual experiences, maybe non-denominational ideas about spirituality, that they’ve looked into it, they’ve studied it, they’ve practiced different things, whether it’s mindfulness or yoga or chakras or, other Sufism, Taoism, those kinds of things. And I think that’s really Im important. So that would be the, I wouldn’t say Shamonic, but that would be the ideal therapist situation that would allow for the spiritual. Side of psychedelic therapy to be, made more front and center.

There’s a researcher formerly out of Johns Hopkins, I think you might know him, Matthew Johnson. And Matthew Johnson has written extensively, done a lot of research, written a lot of articles on psychedelic, compounds and different conditions. And he pointed out one time is that, the opposite is also true.

Psychedelics are highly suggestible, putting somebody in a vulnerable state and they’re under the influence of a substance that makes them very suggestible to meaning and beliefs. And there’s this idea that he presented do you want to be, do you want to be somehow your, you, let’s say you have a Buddha statue in your ceremony space or whatever I icon, religious iconography you have or you’re feeding people about spirituality before their psychedelic experience.

That can be. Co seen as coercive, or you’re suggesting something that you’re trying to guide people into something that they may or may not naturally discover on their own. So I think it can work both ways that you have to be mindful of the suggestibility and the vulnerability of the patient.

And if you’re prompting them and preparing them for all kinds of religious or spiritual, ideas or whatever. That could be harmful. What if they don’t have any real, do they feel like they failed if they didn’t have any, big spiritual moment or whatever. And so I think it works both ways.

I think it’s really important to have a well-rounded sense of what spirituality is, to have had some experiences with it as a therapist so that you can help people with different. Models or frameworks that they can help them understand their experience, that’s really vital. But also not to be too suggestive or to be promoting one, one spiritual path over another, that can be really dangerous.

Sam Believ: Yeah. My philosophy is that the spiritual knowledge should be coming from the plant or substance itself not from whatever people say. Like for example, here at LoRa, we. We guide people on like psychedelic navigation, like how to go through the experience, but we don’t tell them specifically what to believe in.

And even the shamanic tradition itself, like it’s not really a religion, it’s more of a, it’s just how they do things. What I’m implying is spiritual protection as in is there someone that can feel and maybe protect or hold the space, but not in not like in an empty way of saying it, but like what Shaman does, as in.

Protecting the person from the bad energies, I guess coming in, I, I don’t know if there’s any notion of it in in the clinical model or I mean at least smudge the space or something like that. Is anything being done or is just completely like. Cut and dry and like white walls and,

Rick Barnett: yeah, I, I think even the way I was trained as a psychologist, I was trained in a sort of classic psychoanalytic sense where I was advised by and trained that if I was to set up my office, it would only be two chairs. Really be really thoughtful about what you put on the walls.

Any personal pictures that you might have up, even if you put your diploma up on the wall, what are you conveying to the patient who’s coming into your office if you have too much stuff going on. And, the flip side of that is that, someone comes into a very sterile. White walls, empty space that can be intimidating in and of itself.

There’s just nothing familiar to, for them to relate to or whatever. There’s gotta be a balance. I love what you said about just allowing the medicine, the plant, to generate its own. Spiritual framework for somebody based on their own internal experience their intergenerational lineage that might come up during a psychedelic experience or their early childhood or, some part of their life.

Something crystallizes for them that has a spiritual quality to it. And that’s, helped along by the psychedelic experience itself. That’s great, but that doesn’t, you don’t need to. You don’t need to have Buddhist statues and Palo Santo and chanting going on in order to help somebody do that.

But sometimes having that stuff is really nice. Some people find that very comforting or helpful to, to create the kind of safe environment. Some people might find it foreign and unsettling to have smoke blown in your face or be smudged or whatever. They don’t like certain scents or certain chants or sounds.

It might bring up something that’s very. Upsetting to them. So I think there’s a way to, get to know people, understand what might work best for them without being too prescriptive, but also not being too bland, too too sterile.

Sam Believ: Maybe as the field progresses, there will be medical devices that form as the same function.

They’d be like in meeting a certain frequency. That scares the bad spirits away, whatever. I’m still very new to my own shaman journey, so I don’t really understand it too well. So it’s more of a hypothetical question and yeah. Tell us about the stories, the success stories you’ve seen with people.

With addiction working with psychedelic assisted psychotherapy?

Rick Barnett: Yeah, not unlike your experience there, there seems to be a pattern in my work and not for everybody, but there are plenty of examples where one or multiple psychedelic experiences seem to shift something inside someone that makes their.

Addictive behavior or substance of choice, less appealing. The craving almost disappears suddenly. I’ve seen that with ketamine. I’ve seen it with psilocybin. I’ve definitely seen it with five M-E-O-D-M-T or also known as bufo. That something enables that, that shift so that the addictive behavior either completely gets eradicated, eliminated, or.

Or really the intensity and the frequency of use or engaging in the unhealthy behavior goes way down. So I’ve seen it with alcohol. I’ve seen it with other drug use. I’ve seen it with food addiction. There’s a lot of. There’s a lot of examples of that, and the research also bears that out.

The more and more research is coming out on psychedelics for addictive behaviors, and I really do think they’re a promising new tool. And I wish they would get approved and integrated into practice more quickly. The, the model that we have for approving new drugs is bogged down in bureaucracy and red tape, and you have to prove all kinds of stuff.

Plus psychedelics have still have so much stigma associated with them, and people still have so many outdated ideas about what they are and how they can, how they affect people. And that’s a real, it’s a real hurdle. We need to have more conversations like this so that people understand that this isn’t just.

This, this party recreational, like spiritual bypassing, new age bullshit. It’s actually, millennia old. History and technology that if done in, in the, in a healthy way is very transformative. It’s been that way for so long and there’s no reason why modern society can’t get their act together to to create the models that, you know can really help people.

I wish it would happen a little bit quicker, but.

Sam Believ: Beautifully said, Rick. I totally agree with you. Let’s hope this future is coming. Thank you for this episode. Thank you for all the knowledge. Tell us more about you, where people can find your work or maybe somebody wants to. Work with you or go to your conference?

Tell us more.

Rick Barnett: Yeah, I’m definitely searchable on the internet, so if you look up Rick Barnett, Dr. Rick Barnett on the internet, you’ll see some resources to find me. I’m very active on LinkedIn and at Dr. Rick Barnett and also on Instagram and Twitter X at Dr. Rick Barnett, all one word. D-R-R-I-C-K-B-A-R-N-E-T-T.

You can always, those are all open. You can direct message me on there. And every year we put on a conference here in Vermont, we get some really great people to come to Vermont. A very small conference, not the big Colorado Maps conference, but a very small. Group of like 150 people come to Vermont every year either on the solstice, summer solstice, or the fall equinox.

It’s called Sequinox. So you can Google, S-O-U-L-Q-U-I-N-O-X. Sequinox is a conference that we put on every year. We got Rachel Yehuda coming this year in June, so people can find out information on that by going I, so I co-founded the Psychedelic Society of Vermont, and so there is a. A website called Vermont psychedelic.org where people can find information on that.

So yeah, I’m definitely reachable. And I’m always happy to try to educate people and to try to be helpful where I can. And I really appreciate coming on your podcast.

Sam Believ: Thank you, Rick. It was a pleasure. Guys, you’ve been listening to Ayahuasca podcast. As always, we the host, Sam, believe, and I’ll see you in the next episode.

I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you’d like to support us and psychedelic renaissance at large, please follow us and leave us a like wherever it is you’re listening, share this episode with someone who will benefit from this information. Nothing in this podcast is intended as medical advice, and it is for educational and entertainment purposes only.

This episode is sponsored by Laira Ayahuasca Retreat. At Laira, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity. Laira connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you.

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with , also known as Mycopreneur. Dennis is the creator of Mycopreneur, often called the “Onion of the psychedelic space,” a leading media platform exploring the business, culture, and future of mushrooms through sharp satire, journalism, and long-form interviews with founders, scientists, and visionaries.

We touch upon topics of:

• Dennis’ early fascination with mushrooms and altered states (01:30–04:30)
• Humor and satire as tools for integration and cultural critique (05:00–10:00)
• Trustafarians, influencer culture, and spiritual ego (07:20–12:00)
• Ethical concerns, wild-west dynamics, and retreat culture (12:20–16:30)
• Visionary exploration vs healing journeys over time (16:30–20:30)
• The role of the jester archetype in psychedelic culture (22:00–24:30)
• Meme culture, media, and modern communication (51:00–55:30)

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to http://www.lawayra.com

Find more about Dennis Walker at mycopreneur.com, on Instagram @mycopreneur, and through the Mycopreneur newsletter and podcast.

Transcript

Sam Believ: You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast.com.

Dennis: You ate a mushroom and it made you hear colors. What does that even mean? You could see music. So I started going down these rabbit holes. I started seeking out literature, going to the library and checking out books like Tales of a Shaman’s Apprentice. That was about someone, mark Plotkin, who apprenticed with some indigenous tribes in the Amazon.

And then eventually I discovered Terrence McKenna. And it was something that put everything in perspective for me at the time as someone who was very interested in these compounds. Didn’t really a COA, they fit into my life. So fast forward to 17, 18. I decided to try them, and I did my homework, my due diligence.

I didn’t just jump into it blindly, and I had a really comforting, grounding, inspiring, beautiful experience. Like so many people will tell you about their experiences with mushrooms. This one was the first one, and it blew the roof off my imagination. I wanted to learn more. I wanted to know why I never heard about these things, or the things I did here were very negative.

Of course, it did not reflect my experience at all. I had a very, I would call it uplifting, beautiful, eye-opening sort of experience. So I feel very fortunate. I was in a good frame of mind. I was in a good place in my life, and that really just set me off on this path of inquiry, trying to learn more about these substances, about the cultures that have traditionally used them, about why they’re so threatening and so restricted from.

Our modern Western culture, and ultimately at that point there was no quote space, right? It was like a very niche underground psycho not bubble of people who were interested in drugs and altered states, and that grew over decades at this point, 20 plus years into now there’s a formal ish psychedelic space and emerging industry research clinics working with them, et cetera.

So I think it was really just a lifelong curiosity that turned into almost a calling to use sort of a humorous word about it. But yeah, that’s essentially how I ended up here is it’s been me pulling on a thread for many years and then ultimately arriving at satire and humor as being my contribution and my way of giving back.

I’m not a clinician, I’m not a guide or a therapist or anything like that, but. I do have a lot of experience and I found a way to integrate that experience into my life over many years, which we can talk about, and I find humor to be a really beautiful way to make sense of this often tumultuous and chaotic world we live in.

Sam Believ: Hi guys, and welcome to Ayahuasca podcast. As always, we are the host, Sam, today having a conversation with Dennis Walker, also known as Micropreneur. So Dennis is a creator of Micropreneur, known as onion of the Psychedelic Space. It’s a leading platform, exploring the business culture and future of mushrooms known for his sharp mix of insight and satire.

He interviews founder scientists and visionaries shaping the global micro industry. Dennis brings humor, clarity, and depth to conversations about functional fungi policy and the modern psychedelic landscape. If you’re hearing it on audio you’ll probably, it’ll be harder for you to recognize, but if you’ve, if you’d see it on a video, you’d immediately recognize his face.

He is a very well known face in this psychedelic space because he makes fun of people like me, and it’s very funny to watch. This episode is sponsored by Laira Ayahuasca Retreat at Laira, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity. Ra, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you,

Dennis: Dennis.

Welcome to the show. Thanks very much for the invitation, Sam and I also make fun of people like me, so it’s a pleasure to be here. Hello, everybody.

Sam Believ: I think humor is is a lovely space. Te tell us about let’s start with your story. What, how did you go from, how did you go from No.

How did you get into psychedelic space and making fun of the space and into the mushrooms and all of that. What was your, what’s your journey?

Dennis: Ever since I was 16, 17-year-old, I became fascinated with plant medicines. The idea of altered states. It’s so alien to someone coming from California growing up in the suburbs and public schools to all of a sudden start hearing stories and reading on the internet about taking a plant or a mushroom and having these incredible visionary experiences, these spiritual experiences.

So I never heard anything about this growing up. I was in a very sheltered middle class suburban bubble. And then in that same bubble and high school, you start hearing stories about cannabis. You have some anti-drug education classes, essentially dare things like that about. Psychedelic mushrooms. And then when I started hearing stories from people in my extended network, my peers, my friend’s cousin it can’t help but get you interested.

You ate a mushroom and it made you hear colors. What does that even mean? You could see music. So I started going down these arrowwood rabbit holes. I started seeking out literature, going to the library and checking out books like Tales of a Shaman’s Apprentice. That was about someone, mark Plotkin, who apprenticed with some indigenous tribes in the Amazon.

And then eventually I discovered Terrance McKenna. And it was something that put everything in perspective for me at the time. As someone who was very interested in these compounds, didn’t really a COA, they fit into my life. So fast forward to 17, 18. I decided to try them and I did my homework, my due diligence.

I didn’t just jump into it blindly, and I had a really comforting, grounding, inspiring, beautiful experience. Like so many people will tell you about their experiences with mushrooms. This one was the first one, and it blew the roof off my imagination. I wanted to learn more. I wanted to know why I never heard about these things, or the things I did hear were very negative.

Of course, it did not reflect my experience at all. I had a very. I would call it uplifting, beautiful eye-opening sort of experience. So I feel very fortunate. I was in a good frame of mind. I was in a good place in my life, and that really just set me off on this path of inquiry, trying to learn more about these substances, about the cultures that have traditionally used them, about why they’re so threatening and so restricted.

Restricted from our modern Western culture. And ultimately at that point, there was no quote space, right? It was like a very niche underground psycho not bubble of people who were interested in drugs and altered states. And that grew over decades at this point, 20 plus years into now there’s a formal ish psychedelic space and emerging industry research clinics working with them, et cetera.

So I think it was really just a lifelong curiosity that turned into. Almost a calling to use sort of a humorous word about it. But yeah, that’s essentially how I ended up here is it’s been me pulling on a thread for many years and then ultimately arriving at satire and humor as being my contribution and my way of giving back.

I’m not a clinician, I’m not a guide or a therapist or anything like that, but I do have a lot of experience and I found a way to integrate that experience into my life over many years, which we can talk about, and I find humor to be a really beautiful way to make sense of this often tumultuous and chaotic world we live in.

Sam Believ: Thank you for sharing your story. I think that’s we all get to this line of work in so many different ways. So there’s two sides of you, right? There’s this serious side of you. That interviews people about mushrooms and their very various uses, not just psychedelic.

And then there’s this funny side of you, the comedic side, the side that I guess most people know. Yeah talk to us about that. How is that balancing act and like what, which which version of you. Are we talking to today?

Dennis: Great question. It’s something that I wrestle with a little bit.

It’s having the inspiration whenever it strikes and being able to pursue something. If I want to do a really serious subject or a really serious story, like for example, I’m interested in these ethnographic types of experiences. As I mentioned, I’m in Tunisia right now in the capital of Tuni and before this I was in Uganda and I met some Bota Pygmy a community there, which is an indigenous community in Uganda and they use cannabis.

And so I really wanted to explore that when I learned that this was part of their cultural fabric. Because there’s not a lot of documentation or research or anything like that into cannabis use in Sub-Saharan Africa, specifically among the pygmies. And I just stumbled into it because I was at a mushroom festival.

You meet a person, they tell you about a place. Next thing you know. The Pygmies are offering me cannabis, and there’s very little outside sort of exposure to this that I’m aware of, and I was doing my proper due diligence. Didn’t find a lot about it. So that’s a story that would be tough to tell through satire, or the same thing with the Uganda Mushroom Festival.

That’s a story where I don’t know that it really speaks to satire, where you have Sub-Saharan communities that are abjectly impoverished, who are really facing critical urgencies in terms of their limitations. No access to clean water food. Energy issues, things like that. Where, how do you satirize something like that.

How do you tell that story through satire? It’s very easy to tell the story of middle class and upper middle class and rich white people who drink ayahuasca one time and they discover that they too are a shaman. And this is like a very easy low hanging fruit trust. Yeah. The trust afar.

Anyone who spent time in Tulum or Ibiza and I really think it’s an important thing to recognize and to look at because. People tend to romanticize their suffering and their healing. And it’s the, to me, very humorous to be like, you can endlessly fetishize and romanticize this process of healing.

Anything can be heavy and dark and traumatic. But there’s something about being able to reframe some of those experiences and look at ’em with a little bit of skepticism, humor lightheartedness. That to me, in my experience, actually gives you agency over a lot of these experiences and qualities because if you keep trying to heal over and over, you can do hundreds of ceremonies and some people do, maybe that’s their path.

And I think that, I have more stories of how I arrived at these insights and why I’ve arrived at them, but as far as balancing, seriousness and lightheartedness, I think it’s nice when they can dance in between each other. And I think really good satire and humor for me has a really dark, heavy element to it.

It’s almost like you can’t talk about these things. Really effectively and communicate them without being able to put a sense of humor on them. And I tested that theory extensively when I first really started pushing how far I could go with Micropreneur. And I started examining things like geopolitics, like I was making satire on the Israeli Palestine border and going into refugee camps.

Talking about things that are hard to saturate and speak to the, these kinds of experiences I found at the time you could. Examine them through satire, but other times it’s today that would be very hard to do that same kind of satire. This was like four years ago. So I think that it really just depends on the subject matter.

The story and the last bit I’ll say here is satire, usually to me involves punching up. You don’t want to satirize like a vulnerable single mother in a refugee camp. That’s not really satirical material. But satirical material might be the white Arian with the dreadlocks who’s gonna go save the world by starting an ayahuasca center and the Amazon, and it turns into a pyramid scheme and they create a influencer culture around it.

That’s to me, what you would satirize, and it’s being able to judge or distinguish which one deserves which treatment.

Sam Believ: Yeah, and I watched a few of your videos. There is always a part there where they build an Amazon warehouse next to the retreat for some reason. It is. It is funny. So I totally agree with you and I agree with the importance of humor in space, and especially in such serious matters as healing and as psychedelics.

And I think you I’d like to invite you to my retreat. I think you’d appreciate the amount of humor. We have those jokes that we recycle over and over again because there’s this there’s a lot of under the belt humor that comes with ayahuasca because of the purging and things like this.

So there’s this couple jokes that I would love to, to share with you. So yeah you are officially invited, but you, the things you do is basically psychedelic infotainment, right? You, if you were just a person that would hate on all of those, all the psychedelic space, I probably wouldn’t be interviewing you.

So I kinda understand that it’s. It’s like a wrapping. The humor is a wrapping, but deep inside you don’t understand the importance and the use of this space. So it’s like Trojan Horse, right? You lure people in with with funny criticism and then you kinda keep them you educate ’em through a podcast.

Is that a fair assessment of your, of your idea?

Dennis: I think so. I think it’s all about continuing to learn and being open-minded, and that’s what led me to the humor in the first place. I used to be the first one to defend the seriousness of psychedelics. I mentioned I’m a psycho knot. Some people maybe if they’re new to the work I’m putting out, they haven’t been following.

Sometimes it can come off as a little bit like this person’s making fun of healing culture. But I think that is something I arrived at after years of taking it very seriously and also. There are potential pitfalls or challenges and these get recognized sometimes about people who maybe are not in a good position to be serving ayahuasca or serving mushrooms, and they are, because a lot of people don’t know where to get this stuff.

And I’ve seen that play out. I can share some of the stories about going down to Peru. I went down in 2010, 11 and 12 on retreats to ayahuasca centers. And to me it was very new. It didn’t seem to be as culturally in vogue as it is now. I was among the first people in my peer circle, certainly that I knew in my entire community who went and had a ayahuasca retreat in the Amazon.

And I both got wonderful insights and experiences and I also saw. A lot of really unhinged sort of behavior, this idea of you don’t really know who’s serving it. They didn’t necessarily have a lot of safeguards, things like that. So it, it always has been, in my eyes, a wild west frontier for better or worse.

And it’s still like that I don’t think that the answer necessarily is to strictly regulate it and that there’s pushes to do that. But then when you have that wild west frontier, it means that you’re also gonna potentially have some chaos that happens and chaos magic. So yeah, I think being able to.

Have these experiences and then use humor as a form of integration has been a great tool for me and it’s something that I want to teach that to people too. And just one brief story I love to share. I was at Maria Sabina’s house, right? She’s like the patron saint of mushrooms from the mtech culture.

And I’ve been to her family homestead twice. And the second time was a few years ago. It was 2022. And I took a big dose of mushrooms. I was there by myself with her family. They did a vlada, which is the ritual with the copal and incense and prayers and all that. And then they left me there and I was thinking I was gonna have this breakthrough dose experience because the first time I was there in 2010, I had a breakthrough dose and a completely visionary.

Cosmic level experience? This time very little was happening. Like I felt clearly I had the mushrooms in my body, but I really wasn’t breaking through to where I wanted to go. And I felt entitled at a point where I was like, I came all the way down here to Waka and I did the whole ceremony and I ate a double dose of mushrooms and nothing’s happening.

And then I started maybe three hours in just thinking of plot lines for skits, just thinking of, I was just bored. I started thinking of plot lines and then that’s when the mushrooms really kicked in and it felt like there was a sort of collaboration there. And at that point I realized I’d been doing it for a while, that maybe mushrooms also have a sense of humor if we’re willing to assign agency and intelligence to these substances and say that they are, they do have a spirit and they do have an intelligence.

I think they also have a wonderful sense of humor, and why not explore that avenue? In my experience, they’re, they’ve been kicking me plot line saying, Ooh, here’s a good idea. And then all of a sudden it becomes like you’re a you’re, you have a co-pilot instead of just you trying to figure it out.

And then by turn, that becomes very therapeutic as well.

Sam Believ: Yeah. Ayahuasca also has a very keen sense of humor and a lot of people report to it. It can tease you, it can make fun of you. It can also be strict. It’s interesting with those plant or fungal medicines that sort of have that very pronounced spirit, they do seem to also have a personality.

So you mentioned the, in the end, like the therapeutic effects of it. So let’s talk about your own healing journey. A lot of the there, there’s this cultural notion that a lot of the comedians become funny because it’s the way to navigate the world and run away from some pains and process things. I’m assuming what brought you to psychedelics at the first place was healing. And I don’t believe you share about it much. Can you share to us your own healing journey?

Dennis: Yeah, thanks for asking. So truthfully, when I first came into psychedelics, and I mentioned I had a mushroom experience when I was 17, and then that opened the door to higher doses and further exploration open the door to whatever was available within the next few years.

It was DMT salvia, different molecules, right? And truthfully, it wasn’t about healing when I started. It was about visionary purposes. I was so infatuated with this idea that you could close your eyes and see other worlds. And again, that’s the writing of Terence McKenna. It’s the writing of Mark Plotkin, it’s the Arrowwood trip reports, and in particular, as fascinated.

With the writing of McKenna because he is a brilliant writer. I don’t necessarily agree with all of his ideas. I think he had a very humorous element. People take, this is a great example. I think people take Terrence McKenna as like gospel, what he said. But if you read a lot of McKenna, he says don’t believe me.

Have your own experiences, right? I think. I in, in my eyes, like if he were to see how he gets deified and put up on this huge pedestal, he would probably find that very ironic and perhaps distasteful in some ways. I think that it’s all about you have your own experiences and you make up your own mind, but it was in particular how adept he was at being able to describe these experiences.

And it was at a point in my life where I knew there was something there. I had low dose experiences, but I had never heard anybody talk about them in such a eloquent way. So that opened my eyes to, there’s something really here. This person in my eyes as a brilliant writer, he’s really making a lot of sense to me, at least at this point in my life.

I’m gonna explore this further, and it was a high dose visionary experience. When I was 18 years old, I did a seven gram solo. In the dark experience that really delivered on the money, talking about these close eyed visuals, open-eyed visuals, very complex landscapes and insights, and a feeling of this connectedness with something broader.

Very difficult to find the words for it still for a lot of people, much more so when you’re 18 living in the suburbs and there’s not really that level of culture or familiarity in your immediate community. I remember having that really high dose experience and not being able to really talk to anyone about it.

It wasn’t like today, and even now I, I am thinking like, oh, seven grams, there’s so many different variations of potency and different mushrooms and things like that. Not then, not in my community. You pretty much had access to golden teachers. Sometimes they had penis envy, but that was about it.

It wasn’t at all like today where there’s psychedelic cups and people have 150 mushrooms in their culture bank. So yeah, I feel like. It’s been a rollercoaster of a ride still, and I think it’s really important to put time around these experiences too. I feel like a lot of people, myself included, you start to get this sort of honeymoon phase with psychedelics.

You romanticize them, you become an evangelist for them, or everybody needs to do them, everyone needs to try them. But the older I get, the more I put distance between that version of myself. And today I’ve been married for eight, nine years. I have a 1-year-old son, or he is turning one next month.

I’ve been really committed to my work projects. Like it’s different than, 15 years ago where I thought that we needed to get rid of money and, form this new, I still have that level of utopian thinking sometimes, but I just feel like. What I see in psychedelics now is people being very infatuated with them and leaning into them all the time.

And I also strongly believe in cognitive liberty. So I think people should decide what’s right for them. You’re not hurting anyone. You wanna, macro dose for days on end, that’s your decision. But in my own life, I’ve found a lot of value and being a little bit more intentional and then also maybe putting a little bit more space between some of the trips.

Sam Believ: Yeah, definitely. The integration is important. So that’s not the topic I was planning to discuss with you ’cause it’s not the funniest one. It’s actually one of the, one of the boring topics. But I don’t know, maybe you have some wisdom you wanna share.

Dennis: Let’s get into the funny stuff. So how I got into the satire is I was interviewing mushroom entrepreneurs, and that’s what I still do.

Every Friday I put out a new podcast, and that’s actually become quite lucrative because over five years of this 240 something episodes lots of other short interviews, I’ve just built this really cool network of people all over the world who leverage the potential of mushrooms. It’s not just psychedelics, right?

There’s people making materials, there’s people building houses outta mushrooms. Someone just built a surfboard that is commercially available in France. They’ve got a skateboard. So like I’m doing all these interviews and after about a year, especially the psychedelic ones, I was just like. Just everyone’s treating this just like a business, like they’re shipping units of apple juice, right?

This is mushrooms. This is like one of the weirdest, strangest, furthest out thing. And we’ve got all these like CEOs now who are trying to turn it into this commercial interest where they’re treating it like it belongs on the NASDAQ Stock Exchange. So it just created this really wonderful set and setting for humor.

And I in particular found a lot of humor around these kind of, like I mentioned I’m white, obviously I’ve encountered this a lot where god bless the confidence of a white man. A white man goes in, has a psychedelic experience, and then the next thing you know, like they wanna launch a company, they want to, be on featured on Forbes and Rolling Stone and stuff like that.

As a thought leader, and to me there’s just something really beautiful about trying to take the ego down a little bit. That’s what psychedelics for a lot of people are intended to do, or what, it often gets promoted. Like they, you have ego death. But I would challenge that. I think a lot of people, it shows maybe it’s the opposite.

You have ego amplification. There’s a sense of I am great, I am the best. I am gonna dominate. And to me satire is a great way of taking people down a pig in a beneficial way. And then I started to learn that this is something historically that various cultures have seen the value in. So like with the archetypal role of the jester, right?

And the actual renaissance, not the psychedelic renaissance, but like Renaissance Europe, there was usually a jester in the king’s court. And the express role of the jester is to bring the king down a notch a little bit. It’s to make fun of him. It’s because nobody else could do it. If some, if one of the peasants makes fun of the king, they would get their head chopped off.

But it was the Jester’s job to make the king laugh and to lampoon the king. And again, this kind of archetypal figure has shown up in different cultures. And the idea, as far as I understand it, is that they don’t want the king to get too full of himself. There has to be some element of humanness.

And part of humanness is having a sense of humility and having, being able to. Look at yourself and being like, you know what? I am being a little bit of a jerk right now. I don’t know if it always works, but that’s my understanding of the gesture’s role is that there’s like a, an archetypal role, just the way that like there’s different figures and a culture.

Like you have your king and you have your soldier, and you have your damsel in distress. You also have the gesture in that this is a super important role. Yeah, I have fun with it. And the litmus test I use for if something’s worth doing is if it is funny for me. I think, humor is very authentic.

It’s very complicated. What is humor? Where does it come from? What makes something funny? There’s so many different cultural tropes that are tied to that about, if I tell you a joke. And it gets translated from Latin Ian to English. It might not be funny, right? I used to host exchange students sometimes, like the Russians would tell me a joke.

It’s not funny but it’s hilarious and Russian. ’cause you have to be able to understand the culture and the context and why it’s funny and that’s a lot of humor. So to me, what makes it really cool to do psychedelic humor and mushroom humor is it means that the culture has evolved to a point where people have these shared ideas about why something is funny.

If you were to tell mushroom jokes or DMT jokes a few years ago, they’d have to be pretty surface level. But now you could talk about DMT entities and the joke and people know what you’re talking about. Or you could talk about like ego death with the mushrooms. People know what you’re talking about.

This just means that the culture has grown. So we have a shared language. So I think that’s another interesting point with the satire. I,

Sam Believ: yeah, it’s interesting you mentioned language because, with knowledge of language, when you get real proficiency in the language is when you can start making jokes in the language.

And also humor does tend to be a sign of a high intelligence as well. There, there’s definitely something there. But I had the good, I had the good follow up for that and I’m blanking on it right now. Gimme one second.

I also, I’ll just switch the topic.

Dennis: Yeah, sure. I’m happy to, yeah,

Sam Believ: no, carry on. You wanna say something?

Dennis: I wanna point out the difference between humor or, it’s like comedy and satire. I think that’s important and I think satire has a moral component to it too. It’s like a sort of a morality tale or like a moral compass for a culture and for me.

Standup comedy and humor. You could tell poop jokes and they could be funny, and I’ve laughed at them like Eddie Murphy, great comedian, standup comedian. Also great satirist, but mainly known as a comedian. He talks about when he first started standup, like he could just tell poop jokes and part jokes ’cause he was 16 and that’s all he knew how to tell jokes about.

And I think you, you could do that with satire, but satire usually has an element where there maybe is a teachable moment. And it’s this idea of like in a culture, when you want to embed certain social norms or like a way of thinking about something, you can do it satirically and there’s a moral component to it.

So I think that’s important. And and also I just wanna mention, yeah, doing like. Dark stuff. Like even right now I’m working on a bit, which I’ll probably drop today, that’s a collab post for one of the sponsors that I work with. And it has to do with like proprietary mushroom blends because there’s all these themes and elements and it’s very niche and nuance right now, but essentially, most people listen to this are probably familiar with this, but there’s a lot of these quote mushroom chocolates or mushroom gummies that are for sale online.

Like TikTok has a trending product right now. I don’t even want to use their name, but it’s you have people who are unfamiliar with psychedelics. They’re not going down or drinking ayahuasca or doing integration. It’s the sort of consumer culture, right? Where it’s like on TikTok shop and it gets marketed as wink, nudge, nudge.

They don’t use the real words, but like magic mushrooms essentially. But they’re research chemicals, right? They’re manufactured in the lab. It’s not magic mushrooms, it’s a lab drive chemical. There’s a lot of nuances and debate about how this gets in, but the point is that it’s marketed as being this like psychedelic mushroom, and it’s not.

So I’m like creating a meme right now that leans into these tropes about who uses these products, who sells them? And sometimes you look at ’em, you’re like. Oh, this is like potentially very offensive to some people and I think that’s important too. I think it’s okay, like to, you don’t wanna walk on eggshells.

Like we went through a period culturally where like comedians were afraid to say things. It’s even happened recently, right? Where it’s like people could get in big trouble if they make the wrong joke. And I think that’s a sign of a weak dying culture, like comedy satire. This should be the most protected form of speech and it has historically.

And once you start telling people like you need to be really careful who you make fun of and how you make fun of them, then I think everybody loses. And South Park’s been a great example of that. South Park has said if you can make fun of one group or one type of person. You have to make fun of every type of person, and I think there’s a lot of value in that sort of ideology right now.

Sam Believ: This episode is sponsored by Lara ias retreat. Most of Lara, if you’ve been listening to this podcast for a while, some of you might have already been. To Lare before, for those who don’t know us yet, we started Lara four years ago at Lara. We combined authenticity, accessibility, and affordability.

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All of that is included in price as well as pick up from Metagene Accommodation in Ayahuasca. Visit la wire.com to book your retreat or learn more. La Wire Connect. Heal. Grow L-A-W-A-Y-R a.com. No, definitely. I think taking things too seriously is not always good. So let’s talk about the value of humor in this psychedelic wave specifically.

So we’re, I think they call it third wave Renaissance. I believe the previous one was with the hippies, and I think part of the reason it, it fell apart was the seriousness. Like they, everyone wanted to change the world. And as you say, utopian thinking, I think humor can help there. What are your thoughts on that?

Dennis: Oh man, I would love to go back to 1969 to the sit-in the loving and just put whoopy cushions under the hippies, have fun with it. Yeah. There’s a real potential right now for humor to really bring healing that people are looking for, that maybe they are not getting, like ironically, psychedelics, mushrooms, ayahuasca, probably a lot of people can attest to if they’re not respected, if they’re not shown a certain level of respect and integrity like.

They can just as easily cause harm for people. Th this is like a blind spot a lot of people don’t always wanna talk about, but if you abuse something, it can definitely hit you right back. If you think about things being like a amplifier of internal states, right?

So humor I think can get to the bottom of a lot of that very quickly. And I heard it framed in a way I liked where someone I respect a lot I got to connect with in Austin at South by Southwest. And they mentioned like, when, you’re purging with ayahuasca, you think about throwing up right as a purge for a lot of people.

Like humor. If you get a belly laugh, you’re like, you’re moving the energy down in your belly and it’s like a breath that comes out. You think about breath work of people like breathing deeply, getting to the root of their trauma. If you really hit the bullseye and you have a deep laugh, you’re releasing something very deep, it’s in your gut, it’s coming out in a very kind of like breath work.

It’s going way beyond your normal breathing patterns and thinking, and it’s touching something very deep. It’s touching a nerve. I deal with a lot too as many of us do. I just mentioned just having my son and. The birth process is pretty challenging. It was pretty traumatic.

We’re so blessed and so grateful. But as any new parent will attest to you, like it’s tough when you get your sleep interrupted, your schedule’s topsy-turvy you still have work to do. You have commitments, you have family, but it’s like you’re taking on so much new energy. I can’t like just focus on work like I used to, right?

It’s if I take my eyes off this kid, he might fall down and hurt himself or, put his fingers in the plug or whatever. Point being that I’m now finding like I have to deal with a lot of stuff too. And so when I have a chance to find humor in something or make something humorous, it’s really beautiful.

And I also see this when I travel. I mentioned I’ve been very fortunate to travel a lot, host exchange students, and I found people in very challenging situations who have wonderful senses of humor. It’s if you can find humor and laughter and joy and these challenging circumstances. What’s really gonna get to you after that?

Like you say, oh yeah, that already happened. I was a soldier. I’ve been involved in lots of things and I choose to find joy. You can let. Your circumstances define you, and it’s really easy to tell yourself the story that you’re the victim. This thing happened to you, that thing happened to you, this person did something wrong.

It’s just as easy, or at least if you think about it this way, to make yourself have a different story, like change your story, find a sense of humor. And just briefly I’ll share, that was one of my early exposures to kind of plant medicine healing was with cannabis. It was before I’d taken mushrooms and I had a close eyed visual experience where someone who was tormenting me a lot at that point in my life, I was having, troubles at school and I didn’t know how to feel about this person.

And I saw them just like dancing like a clown. Like while, they were like, it completely reframed my perspective of them and I was laughing at them. I remember so that after that, when I’d see this person, I’d just be like, I’ve seen you just acting like a total fool, and you’re no longer threatening or scary to me.

I’ve heard ERO tell me that, but in the Amazon with Ayahuasca telling me that if you know these something’s very dark and heavy and they, it’s trying to scare you in your vision, just laughing. Its face, just, I’m not scared of you. Like you look ridiculous right now.

You’re stuck in this five D matrix and I get to go drink my mint tea and drink beer tomorrow if I want. And you’re stuck here by reframing things. It gives you a lot of power over the situation.

Sam Believ: Yeah. Humor is very important. It’s it’s a very powerful tool and especially if you have kids and you have business and it’s busy.

I I attest to that. I have three kids myself, and I dunno if you can see my under eye bags, but I was woken up by one of them today at 2:00 AM because he. His diaper leaked and he pe he peed himself. And then I had to go take him to my bed. And so it is challenging. Yes. Stressful humor helps.

That’s why we would definitely joke a lot. Like I, I joke a lot. I call myself a sit down comedian because we sit in the word circles and we share, there’s a presentation and I and I make a lot of dad jokes, and some people find them funny, some don’t. But humor really helps sometimes.

For me, the problem is not to make a joke, in a serious situation. Somebody sharing something and I find something funny and I’m like I can’t really make fun there. And I’ve a couple times I’ve made an appropriate joke. So that’s another that’s another level there.

So are you ever worried about offending people or, getting an enemy or something like that through your humor?

Dennis: There was a point where I was, but at this point, I’m truly worried about not offending enough people. There’s I don’t go outta my way to do it, maybe I should, but something that happened with Micropreneur and is in the process, is like, when I first started I’ve always been an outsider, right?

Like I’ve always I discovered mushrooms and my own way and was doing doses, and then I was never really connected to a strong sense of psychedelic community or things like that. And I always felt before that, even before psychedelics, just like on the edge of the cool group, like I wasn’t, I was part of the cool group, but I was on the edge and humor was a way for me to fit in, right?

So I was class clown in high school. And just like you say, like I have problems not making jokes. Like I wanna make a joke at a funeral, and I want people to make a joke at my funeral and tell jokes and things like that. And. Like when my entrepreneur became popular, I think it was because it, I was like really pushing the boundaries as far as I could.

Like I mentioned, I went over to Baghdad, Iraq. I was at like Saddam Hussein’s, abandoned palace above Babylon and then Babylon just wanting to be as weird as I could. It was this sense like psychedelics just were really starting to become an industry. There were these conferences happening. I got looped into through the podcast some of these circles where it’s all of a sudden it’s like professional and we’re trying to be serious and.

There’s a part there, there’s definitely room for that, but not at the expense of the weirdness. So I just said, I’m just gonna be as weird as I can be and make a lot of jokes that are over the top. And I pushed it and then I ended up, this was 2022 doing satire about Davos. They did the psychedelic industry meetup in Jabos who was getting mainstream coverage and like The Guardian and BBC.

And it was all these stakeholders from like ketamine companies and MDMA aspiring companies and things like that, who met at the World Economic Forum. And while this was happening, I was in Palestine, I was in Jerusalem, and I went to Hebron and learning about that whole story, which of course now is much harder to talk publicly about than it was then.

It was still very culturally sensitive, but not nearly the same as it has been in the last, like two years. So I was like making these absurd videos. But also educating people about the situation, like showing them on the ground how things were in places like Baghdad and Palestine. I was in Israel and then in Egypt, so like this part of the world.

A lot of people have only read about. And I found that satire became this wonderful vehicle for educating as I was learning. But it started to get popular and I think it’s because people saw, like I was being earnest. I wasn’t trying to tell a biased narrative. I was trying to like, make sense of what I was seeing and also have a sense of humor about it.

And then, that earned me more invitations. All of a sudden I was starting to publish with different platforms and I got, let’s say, taken seriously. So why I mention all this is because at that point when I was creating a lot of this type of content, the point was to see how far I could push it, right?

Fast forward two years, it wasn’t that long after I started, all of a sudden I started getting like all of these opportunities, right? I got invited out to Miami to mc, a big conference with Paul Stams and Rick Doblin. They gave me the influencer of the year award. I started getting paid, I got invited out to England to give a keynote at breaking convention, which is a huge academic psychedelic, like biggest European psychedelic conference.

Next thing you know is like India first mushroom conference, and then I was in Geneva a month ago, but it was it’s been like that for the last three years. When you start getting like these bigger opportunities and you start getting money, sponsorships and things like that, it changed the game a little bit.

Like when I was just having fun and seeing how far I could push it, I really didn’t have anything to lose. And then you get to a point where it’s like all of a sudden a lot more people were paying attention and I would actually hear about it if somebody didn’t like something I said, or they didn’t like a video, I get a text, and it felt like people were watching me from all over and all this. And I didn’t have any issues with this. And at this point, frankly, I could care less most of the time. But like I started having to think oh, if I offend the wrong person, whatever, I could get a sponsorship pulled.

And then you have to make that choice. You’re like, do I want to be making money and getting stage time and, getting published and getting quoted and yada. Or do I wanna push it a little bit. And that was the cultural moment at the time too. Like I mentioned, there have been comedians who get their gigs canceled or they say the wrong thing and they get a sponsorship pulled.

So yeah. But I come out the other side of that and realize if that’s the way you wanna approach things, then you you might as well just coast into the sunset because your work has lost its punch. If you’re letting other people dictate what you’re saying and how you’re saying it.

I don’t think that’s what good comedy or good satire is. I think you could be tasteful. So yeah, at this point I’m gonna see if I can get back to offending people. I think that’s the right move.

Sam Believ: Yeah. Sounds good. I remember first one of my we call people that come to my retreat patients and one, one of them, Martin, he’s also a Latin guy.

He sent me a video and I was a little bit offended. I remember. I was like, so it can definitely, he can definitely. Trigger sometimes. But my question to you is, obviously you make fun of white retreat owners and I’m just having to be a white retreat owners, white retreat owner.

So there’s definitely a lot of funniness and I’ve met a lot of crazy people. I would love to believe that I’m different, right? I’m still probably funny because LA guy in, in the Colombian jungle working with the medicine it is a funny concept, but have you met retreat owners that you’re like, yeah, they’re legit, they’re doing good work, they’re working with tradition, they’re helping people, they’re not overcharging or is it always or is it always bad?

Dennis: I think people are not easily camped into like good or bad. And I think that’s something we tend to do a lot is like there’s this sort of ideological purity people have when they look at another person about like how they should act. I think there’s certain things that really shouldn’t be tolerated and I ran into that unknowingly when I first went out to these Amazonian retreats I mentioned like that was really a wild West situation and there were really quite a few accusations after the fact.

None that I was aware of at the time, but they started coming out later of things like sexual assault or like this retreat owner pulling a gun and like one of my. People that I knew who was part of the retreat down there, told me later that this retreat owner pulled a gun on him and fired bullets at his feet because he offended him and then told him he had to leave.

And if he ever saw him again, he was gonna kill him. That’s pretty extreme. And I think especially before today’s culture, like back then, I didn’t know this was a thing, but apparently you could, they could just pay, ’cause I heard this from a lawyer who was working directly with this person. They could pay to get bad reviews removed from sites or suppressed, so they have now Treat Guru, and I don’t think that was around back then.

I was unaware if it was, but for things like TripAdvisor or whatever, where there were reviews of these centers, they could actually pay to have a bad review removed. Or they could threaten with litigation, things like that so that if somebody leaves that review or says on a forum like this. Retreat owner has done this and X, Y, and Z, they could just get that removed so that when you do the Googling, and again, this was like 2010, 11 or back then all is great reviews and it’s oh, so they’ve had 200 reviews and they’re all five stars or four stars or whatever.

So you know that, but at the same time, I know that a lot of people are conflicted about that kind of stuff. ’cause they say I had a great experience. I don’t think we should be okay at all with having someone like that allowed or able to do things. But again, just trying to paint things into either this is good or this is bad.

Most people fall into both camps, so I would like to think that there are ethical operators. I haven’t really been to too many retreats since then. I will say the handful of retreats I’ve been on, I went to one in 2021. I think that was a mushroom retreat somewhere by invitation. And I also had a really weird experience there and I’m not.

In the business right now of trying to like name names and shame people and those people are no longer operating that retreat. But there, there’s just been like, in my experience, a lot of strangeness, a lot of cult dynamics. I would love to go maybe experience a retreat today. ’cause I do think the culture has learned a lot.

I think more people who have been called to, to serve, let’s say more or less selflessly or like really called to help people, hopefully they’re in those positions, but also. Like I spent a lot of time in Mexico and it is a way to turn a quick buck for a lot of people because there’s almost no regulation, right?

If I wanted to set up a Iboga retreat in Mexico, it would not be very hard. Like you have to have a few connections. And I’ve been born on the border, I’ve been going to Mexico since 1990 and have lived there on and off for over a decade, right? Or for many years at this point. Point being that I’ve never opted to do that, but I’ve seen like backpackers or people come in.

And they set up overnight shops where they wanna run retreats and things like that. And I’ve never really been motivated to participate in those. And there have been quite a few stories of how those kinds of things can go awry, where, people aren’t doing intake, they’re not interviewing, they just like whoever can pay you arrive and then, it can just come off the street basically.

Some areas they’ll have like signs on the street being like, Bufo ceremony tonight you can just go smoke five M-E-O-D-M-T with no prior relationship or knowledge. So I do think it’s an interesting dynamic to think about, like gatekeeping verse access and I vacillate or go back and forth about it’s, is it one or the other?

Or it’s somewhere in the middle. Because I do think that there’s a lot of potential for not. Ideal experiences and maybe even flat out harmful experiences, like I’ve heard about and heard direct stories from people of but at the same time, does that mean you wanna make it like super restrictive and like very hard and you have to get this level of license and this level of clinical training so I think the community quote unquote at large is navigating those boundaries.

And that’s truly a lot of that stuff is what drove me back to mushrooms because I saw, wait a minute, do I personally need to go fly down to the Amazon or fly to Gabon? I’ve been invited to West Africa to do iboga or could I have a breakthrough healing therapeutic plant medicine or fungi medicine experience was something that’s grown in my neighborhood.

And mushrooms spoke to me in that way. Wait, I and I do think one other hot take I have is there’s a lot of comparing and subjectivity right now of like people saying iboga is the strongest plant medicine. There’s nothing even close. But then the five M-E-O-D-M-T facilitators will say five MEO is by far the strongest, weirdest, psychedelic.

And then people are being like have you ever hit a K hole? Have you ever done like a big ketamine dose? And I personally think these are all different ways to access these altered states. And have you ever done a ultra macro dose of mushrooms? Because I don’t hear many people talking about that.

But if you do. What, whatever the psilocin equivalent would be of like a 20 gram dose, a huge heroic dose. There’s absolutely states that you can access that have a lot of overlap. So that’s my take on it, is like they’re different tools for different people and I think if someone’s called to go work with something, they should probably do that.

They should be aware of what they’re getting into. And but one other thing I’ll mention is there’s this trend. Now maybe you’ve seen it, I don’t know, but I’ve heard about these centers that will serve like IBOGA and five M-E-O-D-M-T, and peyote and they’ll be giving people like multiple things. Again, I think if that’s what somebody wants to do, they should have the right to do that.

But you really need to know that maybe that’s not a great idea. Like it could just as easily destabilize you if not done intelligently. And some people don’t care at all. And if that’s you, just be careful and don’t hurt anyone else and hopefully don’t serve it to anyone else.

Sam Believ: I have an idea.

So I’m so convinced that what I’ve created here is the most reasonable way to run a retreat. I really want you to come over and if you find something that’s bad or humorous, make a video about it. I give you an open invitation to criticize me. And also I think there’s a, there is an opportunity for some good fun content playing on Columbia’s history, cocaine.

And I get, there’s a lot of humorous content and comments I get on my post. It’s oh, you’re just a glorified drug dealer. We could make a sketch about that. I think it would be really funny that of some tourists that went to Columbia to to do some cocaine and somehow ended up at the Naas retreat.

I think that could be a good piece of content. And because I understand what you say, it’s I see I feel the same criticism, the fakeness, the. The white shamans that drank ayahuasca a couple times and now they’re shaman or mixing different medicines and combo one day fu the other day, or just weirdness and the fakeness.

’cause I kinda I avoided, I also don’t understand the fact that you need to like, look a certain way or have dreads or copper cups or crystals and, there’s definitely spiritual layers to it that I’m only still accessing, but there’s a lot of fakeness in this space, so I try to avoid this.

So yeah I really hope you take this invitation and, we can make something funny. Even if you make fun of us, like I’m open. Oh,

Dennis: I would love to. And I’m not above being made fun of I would hope that people could make fun of me and do it well. And I think to really make fun of someone in a way that’s funny requires you to know that person, or at least to have respect for them.

I think. When I, so go back to South Park, which has been a shining light for a lot of people in their satirical lives, or just in far in terms of pop culture, a lot of the celebrities that South Park really destroys. It’s a badge of honor. They’ll say I made it, like they, they fun of me.

But like I, it’s an honor in that way. And again, I think when you show that you’re not bothered by it, it shows that you are. Confident and secure in yourself. There’s something about satire and it happens with all of us. We’re like, if I get criticized sometimes I take it really personally, right?

That happens and then you say, wait a minute. Why did I take that personally? Like why did that hurt? And then I think there’s something there and then think, focus on that and be like, if somebody criticizes you for something that you are stronger than you, it doesn’t bother you.

But if there’s some, for some reason it bothers you, I think that’s more a comment on yourself. So yeah, I’m interested definitely. And I’ve been to Columbia several times. Love it there. And hope to come back. So I think we can stay in touch after this and as schedules allow, it would be really interesting to, to explore this.

Sam Believ: Yeah. What you just touched on, I think is very deep because it’s basically shadow. If something’s making fun, if someone’s making fun of you and you get offended, it’s because your shadow gets triggered. It’s the same way. The easiest way to discover your shadow is when you look at someone and they really annoy you and you don’t know why.

It means you see something in them you don’t like in yourself. It’s your shadow and you have to do, you have to do the shadow work. So that’s another good reason for humor to exist. In, in, in our modern day, the attention spans are very low. People are distracted. It’s so hard to educate people.

So I think what you’re doing with grabbing their attention with humor and then educating them is actually very smart and very useful. What is your opinion in general and on the way communication is done these days? Social media and like meme culture anything you wanna share in that direction?

Dennis: I think it’s so important look at the fact that, like the president, I think both presidents in the US in the last two administrations have leaned into meme culture and like it’s, Elon Musk and these, very internationally. Prestigious influential people leaning into meme culture, and I think that kind of shows how powerful it can be.

I’ve also become interested in meme advertising. Like I, I mentioned, I like to do all the funny, silly stuff and I also wanna not worry about money, but for all of us. You kinda have to figure out how to put two and two together. You got kids, you got bills, stuff like that. Like it’s turned out that meme advertising can be really great.

Like it’s fun, it’s engaging. Spirit Airlines. No Ryan Air does it really well. They make fun of themselves. It’s a cheap airline. They lean into that. They lead into the shadow instead of being like, don’t make fun of us for being cheap. That’s their whole advertising strategy. It’s yeah, we’re cheap, but you’re gonna fly with us because we’re cheap, so we can make fun of it.

And we’ll make fun of you too. So I think as far as communicating the idea of a meme, as far as I understand it, is, it’s something that’s a replicable unit of culture and that’s what makes things go viral, is like you create an idea, a piece of culture and then it resonates with people and they wanna share it.

So that’s also what let me know. I was onto something with the satire because it was organic. I didn’t convince anyone to share this. People saw it and they’re like, so many times people have said. I swear you made this about me, or I swear you made this video about my friend and I think, no, I didn’t actually.

But you saw that because it’s again, this archetype, it’s this person that exists of it could be the white shaman. That’s a easy one. And then as far as like how things get communicated and social media, that’s what my background is like. I have a degree in media studies from University of San Francisco, and it was on the first wave of social media.

So I arrived at university, a psycho knot already, and like full blown, high dose, fascinated wild eyes. And this was 2007. So like Facebook, I think launched in 2007 or oh six. Twitter launched in 2006. YouTube had just launched. So I really got to ride this first wave of social media and. See where it’s gone from there.

So I’ve been tracking, studying, building, trying different things. I also feel a sense of pride in that. It’s taken a long time to have some success in this space, right? Like back in film school, back when I was an undergrad, I didn’t get the breakthroughs I was hoping for, and a lot of people don’t, it doesn’t happen overnight.

But then the fact that I got to continue working towards something, chipping away, working on different projects, playing in bands, teaching multimedia, working on independent films, things like that. And then eventually it’s satire and humor that broke through. And I never planned to do humor or satire, just.

Was a sort of hidden talent, let’s say. Like I knew I could be funny, but I never thought about putting out explicitly satirical skits and content. So it’s the virality the meme culture that paved the way for all of that. And I started seeing oh, if I make this certain type of content that I think is funny and people think it’s funny, then it actually affords me more opportunities to do cool things.

And so really the last few years it’s been about like finding ways to leverage that. To ironically grow the business. It’s but it started out me just like criticizing, rallying against this psychedelic industrial complex. And then I’ve been co-opted to a degree where now, people hit me up to Hey, I’ve got this brand of this, that, or the other, this conscious brand.

I want you to promote us great $2,000. And it’s wonderful because if people don’t like it, I’m like, I’m having fun. I think the most important thing for a lot of people is avoid burnout. And it’s tough to do that. And the way you avoid burnout is by having fun and enjoying things and means satire, humor.

Leans really well into that. And then the other side of that is we talk about like the kind of fake plastic shamans, which I think definitely exist, but there’s a lot of this like social media glorification of psychedelics, right? Like the psychedelic influencer as such rich subject matter to me.

Live streaming a mushroom ceremony. I think that’s like a wonderful topic for satire, live streaming, an ayahuasca ceremony, this idea of something very sacred and beautiful, but like I did a skit that I thought was funny about get ready with me for an ayahuasca ceremony.

People do on TikTok get ready with me for a night out. So just talking about what I’m gonna wear to the ceremony because they think there’s an element of that where like you, you get these people who do a ceremony and then almost immediately after they’re updating their Twitter about what they learned in the ceremony.

Or they’re like taking a picture with them. And I just think there’s a lot of room for satire and comedy there. ’cause can you imagine like the traditional lineages, which obviously we’ve evolved from that to a degree, but once upon a time, as far as I understood it, like if you wanna learn about some of these plants or these entheogen.

You go in solitude, you diet, you’re very intentional about it. And now we’ve created this fast food culture around it where like you fly in, you do the ceremony, you take selfies, you update it, and then you’re back in the office on Monday and you make a LinkedIn post about what the spirit’s taught you about ROI and Q4 and how you really need to finish strong in Q4.

This is what my vision was. And I’m not saying it’s my place to judge or say like a person’s right or wrong, but I do say it’s my person, it’s my place to make fun of that. It’s my place to be like, I think this is silly and I think we can make fun of it. If your whole thing you got out of your ayahuasca trip was how you’re gonna be like a slightly better employee that’s you.

But I think that is, is a silly way to approach it personally. I think these experiences. Probably take longer to figure out what happened than to like force this night. Sometimes people have the narrative written before they finish the experience. There’s a, I’m gonna go down and I’m gonna figure this out.

And then they already have it written their idea. So when they finish with everything, it’s like they already, they told the ayahuasca what they wanted, they didn’t open themselves up to see, they told ’em, oh, I want this and this is what I’m gonna manifest. So I digress. But I think, yeah, there’s a lot of room for skepticism, humor and the, this idea of the fast food, ayahuasca ification or fast food psychedelic experience.

Sam Believ: No, I as you talk about it, I understand there’s just so many things that are finding in this space and I appreciate the work you do. I think the gesture is necessary and I definitely. Had a lot of fun watching your video thank you so much for coming on and talking.

This is a very unique topic in this space, so I was glad to have you and yeah, just tell people that haven’t seen you, which they must be living under the rock because I think everyone have seen you. But tell them where to find you and any asks from the audience.

Dennis: Awesome. Thanks Sam for having me on.

I really appreciate it, and I do hope to go to Latvia one of these days. I’ve always wanted to go to Riga. I mentioned I work with a chocolate maker there of all things. So yeah, micropreneur is the name of the platform. I’m very active online. I try to have at least one post per day, a satirical reel lately with traveling.

I was in Uganda, as I mentioned, for Mushroom Festival last couple weeks. I’ve fallen behind a bit, but I do a lot of online content on my Instagram and on LinkedIn. TikTok, I got kicked off a Twitter. That’s an amazing story, but I’ll save it for another time. So I’ve been de platformed from a few, because I talk about psychedelics a lot.

Anybody who’s in this space knows that’s a potential thing. I do the newsletter, which covers. The mushroom innovation space globally, that comes out every Thursday in the morning, and then on Thursday afternoons I host an incubator. So if anyone’s interested in connecting with other mushroom entrepreneurs, and a lot of mushroom entrepreneurs also have a lot of skin in the game, or connections with other things like.

Ayahuasca, tryptamine, so on and so forth. Come join us at the incubator. It’s free. The invite goes out Thursday morning in the newsletter, and we have really solid presentations. Like we just had one from a group in Colorado that breed exotic psilocybin mushrooms and olis mushrooms. So like things way beyond Ensis Zappo decorum and T-T-B-V-I, which is the strongest psilocybin containing mushroom in the world, or at least that’s been tested.

And they did a whole presentation about the future of psilocybin mushrooms and beyond Cuban. We do this every week. So this week it’s gonna be someone from Silo Safe is the organization, which is a third party labeling system, which makes sure that products on the underground market have inside of the product what the labels say, and they match up.

And it’s a great way to get your finger on the pulse of what’s happening, to meet people who are deeply invested in the space and established already especially in the mushroom innovation space. So that’s every Thursday. The podcast still comes out once a week. We always have interesting guests.

Primarily focused on mushroom innovation across the board. We get into a lot of subjects like we did here. I do a lot of public appearances at these different conferences, festivals. Essentially what I tell people is it’s a media platform. And wherever you find media, that’s where the platform is.

So between the podcast, the newsletter, the online skits, the serious journalism stories, sometimes I’m writing stories for High Times or doubleblind, different magazines, things like that. I would love for all of you to connect with me, whoever feels called to. And I just wanna thank you again for the platform and the time.

And let’s keep in touch about my next visit to Columbia. I’ve been two or three times, I’m sure I’ll be back.

Sam Believ: Thank you, Dennis. Guys, definitely check out the videos. They’re very funny. So guys, you’ve been listening to Ayahuasca podcast. As always, we do the whole assembly and I’ll see you in the next episode.

I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you’d like to support us and psychedelic renaissance at large. Please follow us and leave us a like wherever it is you’re listening. Share this episode with someone who will benefit from this information. Nothing in this podcast is intended as medical advice, and it is for educational and entertainment purposes only.

This episode is sponsored by Lara Ayahuasca, retreat. At Lara, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity, laira connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you.

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with , founder of . Based in Colombia, Danielle has spent over a decade working closely with Indigenous communities to produce ethically sourced, high-quality ceremonial cacao. Her work bridges traditional knowledge, sustainability, and modern processing while supporting local farmers and regenerative practices.

We touch upon topics of:

• Danielle’s first Aya experiences and how they led her to cacao (02:00–05:30)
• Building Origin Cacao with Indigenous communities in Colombia (06:00–11:00)
• Cacao as a daily connection practice vs ceremonial use (13:00–20:30)
• Cacao as an integration tool after Aya ceremonies (21:00–26:30)
• Ethics, sourcing, and avoiding exploitative cacao industries (29:00–32:30)
• Fermentation, roasting, and why “raw cacao” is a myth (55:00–58:30)
• Replacing coca crops with cacao and Colombia’s agricultural future (38:30–44:30)

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to http://www.lawayra.com

Find more about Danielle de Kisere and her work at origencacao.com and on Instagram @origencacao.

Transcript

Sam Believ: You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast.com.

Danielle de Kisere: There are so many ways that cacao can be beneficial, whether it’s spiritual or emotional or just physical with the properties, all the vitamins and nutrients, antioxidants, there are so many ways that people can choose to drink cacao. You don’t have to be on a spiritual mission every day.

Sam Believ: So I just realized I’ve been lying to people because I thought that the difference between the ceremonial cacao and the store-bought cacao is the type of the bean.

Danielle de Kisere: If you have something that tastes anything like chocolate, it’s not raw and there’s no possible way for it to be raw. There’s a lot of people that tell you that, ah, no.

The ceremonial caca should be harsh as you straw, but if you don’t like to drink it, then you’re not gonna drink it.

Sam Believ: You talk about Columbia government replacing Coke. Cow plantations with cacao plantations.

Danielle de Kisere: God forbid you buy cacao from Africa, where still 80% of the labor that works in the cacao fields in Africa is slave labor and child labor.

Sam Believ: Hi guys, and welcome to Ayahuasca podcast, as always with the host. And today I’m having a conversation with Dan. Dick is here. Yeah, Danielle is the founder of Origin Cacao. We’re right here at her farm. Some of you the come to Lare, you’ve been participating cacao ceremonies last six months or so, and it’s been done with cacao from Danielle’s Farm.

So I’m here at the Source and we are gonna talk about cacao today. This episode is sponsored by Lara Ayahuasca Retreat. At Laira, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity. Laira, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you. Dan, welcome to the show.

Danielle de Kisere: Thank you so much.

Sam Believ: Dan, tell us Kate is your sort of final stop when you participated in other medicine traditions before.

Tell us your story of where were you before and then how did you find the medicines and how did you end up working with your Cal?

Danielle de Kisere: I came to Columbia in 2014. I didn’t know anything about the medicine or any medicines or anything like that. I had, was in a transitional point of my life and I had just come here for a short vacation.

But then I decided to stay, I ended up going to an Ayahuasca ceremony. Just by pure accident I met some woman on the plane who said that I needed to go to INE because it was the most beautiful city in Columbia. I was staying in Santa Marta. And and so I just Google search what to do in Met Jean.

And a little article came up about an ayahuasca ceremony and huh, that sounds interesting. Maybe it might help me. And I went and it was absolutely terrible. It was the most ridiculous thing. I couldn’t believe that I paid Lenny to go. It was, I think it was only like 20 bucks.

Yeah. But it was up in, in the mountains and it was so cold and, I didn’t really speak much Spanish at the time. And when I arrived the Titan gave me a tobacco purge. So he just put this like golf ball, size of tobacco in my mouth with his dirty fingers. And I just really sick from that.

And I didn’t really feel the medicine and it was freezing cold. And I’m like why? I can’t believe I paid money to do this? Like, why do people do this? It’s ridiculous. And so I went back to Santa Mar to do my thing and one of the girls that I had met at ceremony, she was also from the us she came to visit me out there.

She’s oh no, but it’s really great. You need to try again. I’m like, I don’t think so. She’s no, you just try again. So I went back and I went to go find the organizer and I told him that I wanted to thank the lady who was singing at the last ceremony. That it was the really the only beautiful thing that I experienced the whole time.

There was some love and singing and it was really super beautiful. He is like. What are you talking about there? We don’t have a female singer. There was nobody singing that night. So I had I had spent the whole night thinking that absolutely no effects from the medicine and nothing happened to me.

And and turns out something did happen. And then that night turned out to be really beautiful. So I kept going back and then I stayed in Columbia and been working with medicine ever since. As far as cacao, when I had decided to stay in Columbia I figured I needed something to do besides drink medicine, that if I was gonna stay here and live here I should do something.

And my mother had asked me at one point to send her back some chocolate. She had heard that Columbia made great chocolates and I couldn’t find any. It turns out nobody in Columbia was actually making good. Chocolate bean to bar chocolate, ceremonial cacao, nothing. There was nothing nothing happening here in, in that sense.

And so I started to learn how to make chocolate and and

Sam Believ: it’s okay. It is a dog saying it is funny.

Danielle de Kisere: So I started learning about chocolate and started, kept working with the medicine and learning about, the plant medicines and that. And had one of my ceremonies I met as Dils who is from the ar waku tribe.

And we started talking a lot. And turns out he had a cacao farm in the Sierra Nevada on the ar waku reservation. And so he sent me some cacao. To see how it turned into chocolate. That’s violet. And so he sent me 50 kilos of cacao and it was absolutely terrible. Absolutely terrible.

They, at that point nobody in the Sierra Nevada really knew how to ferment cacao properly or what to do with the cacao. They just dried it and sent it off and and so I showed him what went wrong and so he went back and tried again and learned some more, and we tried again and it was still terrible.

And anyways, I think that went on for about a year of, every couple months he would try a different technique and, eventually we started getting some good cacao from them, and his wife was here with their kids, and she started coming over to our little tiny factory learning how to make, how to process the cacao.

And and so once we finally had a really beautifully tasting cacao that was coming from their farm, I, I thought, what better to do with it than to share it for ceremonial cacao? Because at that time, this was like 10 years ago, there still wasn’t a lot of ceremonial cacao in the world.

It was a new thing. There wasn’t really that many options in the world. And, to have beautiful, organic cacao grown in a spiritual way I really wanted to share that. So I started trying to put that out there and nobody really knew what it was. And the beginning, I just had to keep giving it away and giving it to people that I thought might know what to do with it.

And we started. Just kept growing from there and I eventually started finding ways to sell it in the world. And and yeah. And now we export about, I dunno, a thousand pounds a month. A thousand pounds. Yeah. And

Sam Believ: I think at least 20 of those go to lower Earth.

Danielle de Kisere: Yeah. It goes all over the world.

We export to the us, Australia, England, the Europe. So we’ve really developed quite a beautiful community of people that love our cacao a lot. And we now started working with a few other regions. We have cacao from Put Mayo, which is grown by the India community there really beautiful project they have.

And of course. We have our own cacao here at our new farm, which I’ve been really trying to spend about two years. We’ve been working on really developing the cacao we have here, and I’ve just started offering that. Yeah it’s really a beautiful project and it’s been really interesting to see and learn just how much our cacao really touches people in the world.

Whether it’s for ceremonies or ceremonies that people organize or just people that use it on a daily basis as a way to connect every day. So it’s really a project that I’m quite proud of in that sense. And the work that we have done with the indigenous has been really great.

The this back and forth, this year long learning process with, as he has. 17 brothers and sisters. And his wife has 14 brothers and sisters. And so the knowledge that they learned, they shared with their family, which then gets shared with their greater community. And now we’re really getting a lot of really good cacao coming out of the Sierra Nevada.

And of course, I’m not the only one to give credit to that. There’s been a few people that have really worked hard sharing the Sierra Nevada cacao with the world, and they have won a lot of awards. But it’s this sharing of knowledge that really is what changes the world. When somebody learns something and this improves their lives, now they can, now they’re making about twice as much perb of kilo that they used to make when they didn’t know how to ferment it. That’s what we’re to. Trying to do a little bit in Tamayo. They’re still new to Cacao and Tamayo and we’re still in a little bit of a learning curve, but it’s a beautiful project to really help the people on the Inga reservation there with their empowering them to, to have a a way of of improving their lives through through bigger earnings. So

Sam Believ: Okay. Thank you for sharing your story. So I see a lot of patterns, like synchronicity. You weren’t really looking for it then I was cofound you and then it’s kinda like my story and many people that I interview, it’s just, it just happens to you Yeah. For various reasons.

And yeah, the Colombian style ceremony is. Can be very shocking for new people. It’s you come and here’s your cup and sometimes it’s uncomfortable and you don’t really have the medicine. So that’s what we’re trying to combat at LA Wire and make it comfortable, especially for the first time or so when drink the medicine.

Don’t get this care experience. But I’m glad you persisted and you had a beautiful experience eventually. And the story about not feeling connection and then figuring out that there was connection all along, that’s very common because we have it all the time. People drink to medicine and they say yeah, nothing really happened.

And then they go ahead and describe a perfect, hadn’t described a perfect DI experience. I felt this and I felt this, and I cried and I purged. But it’s I did not connect because it’s just not what they expected. So let’s talk about caca, right? Because that’s your specialty. You said that, people reach out to you and they tell you how cacaos change their lives either in the working with it individually or in a group setting. So tell us about this, what is cacaos effect on people’s healing and growth journey? What is the role of this medicine in this lab?

Danielle de Kisere: Cacao is really a very, it’s certainly a more subtle medicine as compared to ayahuasca. It doesn’t really quite, do that, but I think it’s a really beautiful medicine that can be many things to many people. It can you know what it’s really known for, because it has theo bro wine and the polyphenols and all these things that help elevate your mood.

It also works with your cardiovascular system. And, so these two in combination can be a really powerful way to open up your heart space, open up your emotional space, help get the blood flowing in all of your body to, to really help move some energies around. If you wanna have it in a ceremonial or in a spiritual way, this can be a really beautiful way to open up all of those possibilities.

So if you have a cacao ceremony and you share music and song, and then you know, also open up and share thoughts and feelings, this can be really a way to help people that might not. Be able to do that on a regular basis for themselves. For me I like to drink the cacao and just as a way to connect every day.

I don’t drink. A lot of people ask me if I drink cacao every day and I don’t. We have tons of cacao. We have 5,000 cacao trees here. Every day I get up in my office and I look at the cacao trees, which are right behind us. And I feel like my whole life is cacao and that energy.

But if I do drink it, it’s, I find it’s a really great way to just ground in and connect. And I think that’s something that most folks are missing in life. Hello Norman.

Sam Believ: He is quite loud is all,

Danielle de Kisere: but those are not

Sam Believ: watching the video. It’s his big dog,

Danielle de Kisere: big ginormous white dog named Norman.

Cacao can really help keep us connected. And I think that’s the thing that most people are really missing in life is connection. Whether it’s to nature, whether that’s to one another, whether or not that’s to God the universe, source, whatever you wanna call it. I feel that this connection is what really has most of the world feeling lost.

So whether you can find that connection every day in your yoga practice or in your meditation practice, or in your medicine work, working with ayahuasca or mushrooms or in a daily practice of cacao. Sorry, I’m so worried that they’re gonna knock over your little stand. No,

Sam Believ: it’s okay.

Danielle de Kisere: It’s, it is that time of day that they get frisky.

Sam Believ: Yeah they see that you’re here and you’re watching, so they’re. They want that attention, I think we can go, the microphone will still pick up. So guys, if you’re hearing some other sounds, it’s the two dogs, they have their daily ritual of blood and slash fighting.

So

Danielle de Kisere: yeah, it’s carry on. There’s no editing I guess, of this, huh?

Sam Believ: Yeah, I can’t remove that, the background noise.

Danielle de Kisere: I really feel that if people were able to find this connection on a daily basis, that the world would be in such a more beautiful place and we as individuals wouldn’t feel so, so depressed, so lonely, so lost because that is, I think the, one of the biggest problems that most people face.

All the anger in the world, all the frustration, all the, the, all these things all stem from the same thing as well. And I don’t think we really need to, put it on anyone? What what form that they find this connection in. A lot of people find that with their yoga practice, a lot of people find this with their meditation practice.

A lot of people use both of these things. And

sorry.

Sam Believ: Some find it through playing play in front. Yeah.

Danielle de Kisere: And they always wanna do this at my feet. I’m trying to think of where I think it’s an

Sam Believ: actually do it for you as much as they do it for themselves.

Danielle de Kisere: If we can, if we could all find a way to connect and connecting with nature is one of the most beautiful ways to do that.

But the majority of the world lives in cities. They don’t have the opportunity to go and connect with nature. Know, cacao could be a really beautiful practice as a way to stay connected. Instead of, getting up in the morning and feeling sh feeling sad about your day and oh, I gotta get up and I gotta go to work.

I don’t wanna do what I have to do, I let me drink some coffee ’cause I’m tired and I’m just gonna knock it out. I’m gonna wake up. Instead of doing that, when you consciously decide to drink cacao as your morning beverage, then that’s making a conscious decision that I am gonna take a few moments to really focus on what I want to achieve today.

What are my intentions for today? And I think cacao can really help that, the Arcos believe that all of the thoughts and knowledge of that there that has been passed down from their ancestors also can be passed on to people through their cacao or through their crops, whether that’s cacao or coffee, or coca leaves or sugarcane.

They take care of their crops in the ancestral tradition, and they’re constantly in this form of meditation and awareness of their connection with the earth. And they believe that by sharing the cacao with you, that you can also tap into that as well. There, there are so many ways that ca cacao can be beneficial, whether it’s spiritual or emotional or just physical, with the properties, all the vitamins and nutrients and antioxidants and oh my God, all the things that are in there.

Maybe this. So there, there are so many ways that people can choose to drink a cow. You don’t have to be, on a spiritual mission every day. I have people that bite just because they want all the vitamins and nutrients and the polyphenols and the antioxidants as a, the over wine. And this is part of their wellness body activating routines.

So many beautiful ways to use cacao.

Sam Believ: So I know you’re yourself is also are very, you’re very into the ayahuasca world and you organized ceremonies and you. I drink and still drink a lot Ayahuasca. I want your take on this. What, when we offer caca to the people at La Wire it’s after this ayahuasca ceremonies are over.

It’s the morning right before they leave. And we try to use it as a tool for integrations. The importance of integration post ceremony and specifically as a catalyst, because sometimes people go back home and they they just forget life starts happening. But if they have this daily ritual where they can sit down and drink a cow, and then maybe together with it they can meditate or journal or set intentions for the day, as you say, and add other layers.

This kind of stack it, but that sort of pleasant moment of drinking that cacao because it is very tasty. And I congratulate you on figuring out how to make it tasty after all those tasks because I drink it regularly. And it’s also very addictive in a good way. Yes. So it’s using our desire and our addiction to something tasty and healthy and then building other habits around it and create this like morning ritual where for half an hour you drink your cacao and you just hold something warm and you connect, as you say.

So what do you think about cacao as a potential tool for integration? What do you think about integration in general?

Danielle de Kisere: I think it’s a beautiful tool and I’m, and I really like that idea. I might have to steal it. We have at times offered cacao as a way to open up the group when they first arrive.

And I do know lots of people that ha, that offer cacao in their integration circles as well. As. As a powerful heart opener this is also a great way in your integration sessions to allow people to open up a little bit more to really feel that. But the idea of carrying forth your experiences in the tools that, that you learn in your ceremonies and your retreats to stay connected afterwards, whether that’s, cacao, whether that’s the music that you hear in ceremony, whether that’s the fluids that you get from the plant fluids that are often available in ceremonies.

These are all great tools to be able to reconnect because I think one of the biggest problems is people come to ceremony and they have this beautiful experience and they learn so much and then they go back into their real lives and then. It’s oh. And little by little you start losing that connection that, that beautiful feeling, it’s oh, somebody cut you off on the road and oh, your boss is mean.

And oh, the lady at, Walmart was rude and like all these things like, oh, I have to go stand in line in the bank for an hour. And hey, this, and I gotta do, like little by little it starts taking away the, that beautiful connection that you achieved in ceremony. And and so whatever tools that we have to stay connected to that’ll bring us back to that moment is really great.

So by closing your ceremonies with cacao, I think that’s a beautiful idea because then also it gives the opportunity to the people like, oh, wait a minute. I remember how great I felt that morning. And then I’m going to try to recreate that every day and then I’m gonna focus on that every day and I’m gonna remember what I learned and what I was trying to achieve in my ceremonies.

And I think that’s a beautiful way, integration. Integration is actually a new thing that people have really been talking about the last couple years. When I first started drinking medicine here in Columbia, it was just like here’s your cup. Whatever happens to you.

Yeah. And so there was no, there’s no talk about any, anything having to do with the history of the medicine or the elders in Columbia really believe that the medicine will show you what you need to know. And that’s great if you have the opportunity to really work with the elders and drink a lot of medicine.

And that’s great ’cause the medicine will teach you all these things, but the Western mind wants to know, why does this happen this way? How does this happen? What does this mean? And I really believe that the western mind works a little bit differently. And so this is where it’s really important to.

Find a way to bridge what you learn from the elders, what you learn from the medicine and somehow connect that into your experience and then carry that forth into your life. The last couple years there’s been a lot of lot of integration talk. A lot of people have been offering classes facilitator programs a lot of psychologists, a lot of therapists have really been adding this up to their practices.

And it’s just all of a way, because oftentimes you can go to ceremony and just get blown wide open and have this beautiful out of body experience outta world experience. All these things that happen to you and then you’re just. Dump back into life and like, how do you integrate the two realities?

And if you don’t find a way to, to combine the two somehow then it gets lost. So I think the integration thing is a really great thing. It’s not something that I’m super great at. But we have a lot of people as a busy

Sam Believ: business owner. I understand. Yes. Myself too.

I’m not, and it’s so funny ‘

Danielle de Kisere: cause, I don’t really like to talk about the medicine. I don’t really like to talk about my work with the medicine. I, the majority of people that meet me in the world would never even know that this is what I do if they didn’t meet me at ceremony. My experiences with medicine are my experiences and I don’t really think that it needs to be shared and talked about too much. ’cause I think it takes away a little bit. And I, and it’s not up to me to convince everyone else that it’s, that they should have the medicine. If somebody comes to me and wants to, thinks that they might be ready and they wanna know how to do that, then great.

I’ll help you find the right place for that. But it’s not my job to tell you. It’s your time. And it’s not my job to tell you what the universe was trying to tell you in your ceremony. And I think that’s something that a lot of people need to be really careful when they choose their integration therapist or that, so that because I’m always super conscious of not interpreting other people’s experiences.

I just don’t think it’s my place in the world. Yeah. And

Sam Believ: I think only the person themselves can know the meaning because your subconscious talks to you in the language. Only you can understand. But let’s go back to the ka. So what is what is ceremonial cacao and how is it different from, let’s say, just the cacao you buy in the store?

Danielle de Kisere: There really isn’t any difference. Cacao is cacao, right? In the sense, our cacao is, it’s really the difference between ceremonial cacao and regular cacao lies in how it was prepared and how it is treated before it gets to you. If your goal is to use cacao as a tool in your life for your wellbeing, for your mental, physical, emotional wellbeing.

That you really wanna choose cacao that has the right base. If you are buying cacao, that was factory farmed per se, like in Peru, they’re just cutting down so much native forest to set up these huge industrial plantations of cacao. And the deforestation that happens and then you have massive corporations that, that own these farms and workers that are not getting paid.

God forbid you’ve bought a cacao from Africa, where, you know, still 80% of the labor that works in the cacao fields in Africa is slave labor and child labor. Ha those energies. Go into your cacao. And it’s the same with your food as well, and your medicine as well, and everything in life.

But if you choose cacao, that has been grown in harmony with what’s around it that hasn’t been, that the forest hasn’t been cut down for your cacao, that it hasn’t been sprayed with chemicals, that the people that grow it are growing it with the right intentions to that it’s not just this huge commercial project.

All of those things will energetically infuse itself in your cacao, and that’s what you really want for ceremonial cacao. But if you were to look at, my cacao trees versus this cacao tree, the cacao bean is insane bean. But energetically. It’s really important to think about where your cacao comes from and who is processing it as well.

So you have to look at how it’s grown, and the deforestation and the chemicals and the, what goes into this? Who’s processing it, who’s touching it? But also when it gets to the factory that processes, what are their intentions, is it just mass produced and somebody’s buying it to call it ceremony or Pi house so they can make a lot of money?

Are they are they really putting the intentions in there to create a beautiful product? A whole product, in the sense that, we know where it comes from. These people are making more than they’re asking for on this. We, we have this, like our relationship with the indigenous here, we have, a beautiful relationship with them.

That they get paid more than they asked for. That. That we, we help them with other projects, that there’s inter exchange of knowledge. So this is really important for me. But then when the cacao is here at our farm, it’s we treat it with the care that, we don’t just oh my God, we have to go up every day.

We have to make a cow and nobody wants to be here. This sucks. No. The people that are making ca cow really wanna be there and make beautiful cacao for you. Because this is what’s important and I package it. We use 100% completely compostable packaging. It doesn’t go in plastic. It’s not, there’s so many different layers of this, just my packaging, is it made in China and shipped here?

And, are we creating more pollution in the world with this? For me, all of these things are really important so that when you get your cacao that I produced, that I know it’s gonna, that I know the people that grew it we’re happy. I know that the people that made it we’re happy and you are happy to get it.

And we’ve done as little, much, a little bit of damage to the world as possible in the process of getting it to you.

Sam Believ: This episode is sponsored by Lara Ioas Retreat. Most of Lara, if you’ve been listening to this podcast for a while, some of you might have already been to Lara before.

For those who don’t know us yet, we started Lara four years ago. At Lara, we combine authenticity, accessibility, and affordability is currently highest rated Iowas retreat in South America with more than 705 star reviews and an average rating of five stars. If you come to lare, you’ll experience powerful, authentic ceremonies led by our indigenous shaman.

Fernando, in a. Very beautiful venue. Just one hour south of Meine Columbia. We’re surrounded by nature and have comforts like hot water wifi at La Wire. Our team has guided more than 2,500 people through this life-changing transformation of Ayahuasca experience. At the same time, we keep it very affordable.

So whether you’re coming for healing, clarity, or a deeper connection to yourself, LA Wire is the best choice. If it is your first time drinking Ayahuasca, you will love our three and a half hour preparation course and integration support. All of that is included in price as well as pick up from Metagene accommodation and ayahuasca.

Visit la wire.com to book your retreat or learn more. Laira Connect. Heal Grow L-A-W-A-Y-R a.com. So I just realized I’ve been lying to people because I thought that the difference between the ceremonial cacao and the store-bought cacao is the type of the bean.

Because they told me that’s Creo, Jovie.

It has more Theo Brome.

Danielle de Kisere: You’re partially correct. It depends. There is a lot, especially here in Columbia, there is a lot of Creo cacao, a lot of the table chocolate that you might buy at the stores here. And table chocolate is really only a Colombian thing. Your listeners in the US we don’t have that there.

There’s and there’s baking chocolate, which is yeah. Really low grade, 100% pure chocolate. But you don’t wanna make a ceremony out of that.

Sam Believ: Yeah, it’s, that doesn’t taste the same way.

Danielle de Kisere: No most of the cacao in Columbia is fine flavored cacao. I think it’s 95% of the cacao in Columbia is fine flavored cacao.

So we have creole trees, which are the original trees, or as closer to the original as possible. And you’ll find a lot of that in in the Sierra Nevada because. They have their old trees, and what they do is they just use the seeds from the same trees and make new trees because they don’t have the money to buy fancy trees.

They don’t have the money to buy chemical fertilizers. They don’t have the money to buy chemical insecticides. If it grows. There’s really not that many diseases that Ca cow are susceptible to. There is a mold that grows on it, and if that, the best thing to do is just cut it off and get rid of that, and eventually you can control that without any chemicals, but they don’t have the money for that.

Most of the growers in the Sierra Nevada, they have very small amounts of trees. They grow a little bit working with his dral and he works a lot with the community there and the associations. And they’ve started to form small associations where they bring in their harvest to a central fermentation plant.

So that it gets properly fermented and then from there it ends up here. So it’s still community run. But this in ensures that a more even taste because I really think the taste is important. There’s a lot of people that tell you that, ah, no ceremonial couch should be harsh. It should be straw.

And, but if you don’t like to drink it, then you’re not gonna drink it. Then you won’t ever get the benefits. I started off learning how to make chocolate, bean to bar chocolate for chocolate bars. So I took that same knowledge as to how to find the right beans and how to, toast it correctly and how to process it correctly so that your ceremonial cacao tastes like fine chocolate.

Because I think that’s really important. So you will find a lot of cho trees here in Columbia. We have a lot here of the trees that came with the farm. Some of them are hybrid trees, and the new ones that I’ve planted are hybrid trees. The problem with the Creole trees, they’re the originals.

They don’t have the disease resistance and they don’t produce a whole lot. So you won’t find a whole lot of them planted as much anymore. But when people talk about hybrid trees you often get a lot of people worry that it’s genetically modified and that’s not the case. It’s not genetically modified.

There are amazing university programs here. There’s such great studies on cacao here in Columbia. It’s really beautiful. But what they’re doing is they’re taking the original trees and they graft on, branches of other cacaos that may produce more to create a hybrid tree. And so this is really beautiful because it can double the production of a farmer.

And by eradicating some of the diseases that are common and also increasing production, but you’re still getting really fine flavored cacao. So all of the cacao we get from pta, mayo most of that will be Trin cacao, which is the hybrid cacao. It’s the cross between Creo and for aero edit.

It creates a beautiful tasting cacao but it’s a little bit easier for the farmers to manage in bout Mayo, specifically the, over the last 10 years or so, the government has been working with a lot of NGOs, a lot of charities to help the people. Plant cacao in place of other crops that may not be as legal like coca.

Yeah. And so it started out as a project to really replace Coca which is a whole different story. But I think the people are starting to really notice that hey, cacao, is a really valuable crop. And it’s really great for the environment and it’s really great for a lot of things.

You can grow it in conjunction with a lot of other things. So a lot of people are really now starting to really catch on and plant a lot of cacao. But what we’re now getting out of, there was originally programs to help empower the people. And so there was a lot of cocoa eradication programs and a lot of programs to help the indigenous that live on the reservations with new crops.

And so they were given trees. Which are hybrid trees. And our most popular chocolate bar comes from 50 minus is some of the best chocolate I’ve ever had you do. So it’s not saying that it doesn’t have value, so you are partially correct. Here in Columbia, like I said, 95% of the cacao here in Columbia is fine flavor cacao.

If you go to Africa, it’s pretty much all forest cacao which is which was developed from the original cacao trees. But it produces just massive amounts of cacao that just really tastes horrible. Yeah. And you’ll find that a lot in Africa and you’ll find that a lot in Peru. It’s a mix.

It’s actually interesting. Cacao was a cacao originated in the Amazon basin. You could probably go to Ecuador or to Brazil and they’ll tell you that no, no CACA originated here in our country. But it came from the Amazon, which at that point, there was no Columbia, there was no Brazil, there was no Ecuador, there was no Peru.

It was all just the Amazon basin. And it was actually a very short bush. It wasn’t actually a tree. And, it was the indigenous at the time, were so industrious and they were so observant of all the things that were in the forest. So they were constantly walking around and seeing what could be of use in their natural environment.

And they discovered that the birds would go and pack at the. The cacao pods, the little ones that were growing on, these little bushes. And the birds would then start to fly like they were drunk. And they discovered that the, once the cacao juice started fermenting that it became alcohol. And so its first original purpose was as an alcoholic beverage.

But the indigenous, they were, they had, this huge network where they were constantly traveling by BGE and visiting other tribes and visiting. And eventually they took the cacao out to the ocean. And at that time there was all these slave trip ships and spice traders moving around the planet on their sailing vessels.

And they went there and started trading it with people. And it became super popular for that. And and people started cultivating the cacao and it started changing from being a bush into a tree. Still not a very big tree, really. Most of ’em are only about, five, six feet tall. And then it started spreading around the world.

So this original one, you won’t see it too much anymore. But it went to Mexico and it went to Africa and it went to all the islands and it started changing depending on where it went. So we ended up with creole trees. We ended up with the forest arrow trees that developed in Africa and the Trin trees, which were a combination of the two in the island of Trinidad.

They planted both because there was a lot of ship traffic there. They had planted both and were really developing a lot of cacao there. And then a hurricane came and wiped out the entire island. And so they were so busy focusing on rebuilding their cities. They didn’t really pay that much attention to the old, the old farms and stuff and new trees started popping up that were a combination of the Creole and the forest stereo, and the people found out that.

Had the beautiful taste of the Creole beans, but it was stronger and produced more. And so that’s pretty much what you see when people talk about fine flavored cacao. Most of it’s t trita. And you can find that all over the world now.

Sam Believ: So it’s interesting that you talk about Colombian government replacing coca plantations with with cacao plantations, because one of the, one of the sort of unofficial missions that I’m on is rebranding Columbia from bad drugs to good drugs or from from cocaine to ayahuasca, or in this case to cacao as well.

So I’m glad that people are doing it already. It’s a great idea.

Danielle de Kisere: The theme of Coca it’s such a delicate thing to talk about because, if you are not in Columbia, you think of, the drug wars and you think of Pablo Escobar and you think of all these things.

And so the theme of coca is really complicated because. There are people there, there are there, there are a lot of people growing coca still to this day. And even you can even find it nearby here in Antioch. But mostly it’s in, in different parts because it’s easier to control over there.

But there are people that are forced into growing it that really don’t have any choice. They’re just told, like the coons are told, you’re gonna grow coca for us now and you can’t say no, but they get paid for it. It’s a complicated thing ’cause Coca is one of the original sacred medicines as well.

I don’t know if you’re your Titus or your elders or anyone here on the podcast is really ever talked about the law of the origin. It’s quite interesting because the indigenous speak about how every plant medicine has an owner and this owner is the spiritual owner that knows all of the knowledge of the plant.

And how to utilize it to help the people and how to properly take care of the medicine. So we have tobacco, which the indigenous talk about as being the first gift to humans from God and all the beautiful things that tobacco can do. And it was gifted to the people. And according to the legends the indigenous people of the Amazon, the re and the Witoto are the owners of tobacco.

And they’re the ones that carry all of the spiritual knowledge of tobacco. Of course, it’s used everywhere, you have ra which is the powdered tobacco you have and then you have coca. And supposedly the owners of Coca are the tribes of the Sierra Nevada region, and you have ayahuasca and the supposed owners of that are the.

Cohan and the Inga and the Si people of the Lower put Mayo region there. And you have cacao, which also has a spiritual owner, and this is a funny one, but the spiritual owner of Cacao is technically the ancient Mayans and the Aztecs because it was the, even though it originated here, it was the ancient mines and Aztecs that really started to understand the spiritual properties of cacao and how to utilize it.

So they’re the spiritual owners of that. So every plant medicine has a spiritual owner. They say marijuana is, its spiritual owner is in India, the natives of the actual country, India. And so

Sam Believ: my people are the spiritual owners of the vodka.

Danielle de Kisere: Alright, just kidding. That’s a good one. You can have that.

So when these medicines are used in accordance to the rules that have been set forth, then these are beautiful things. For a person. Coca is one of the most nutrient dense leaves, plants that is found on the planet. It has so many beautiful nutrients and properties and that’s why it’s been used for so long.

Because it can, it’s an, it’s a food for your body. It’s also a f it’s also a sacred medicine to stay connected to God. It can help with all kinds of ailments. The same with tobacco. Tobacco can, keep you connected to God. It can also, cure all your physical ailments, cure your depressions, all of these things.

But the problem is if you’re not using these things in accordance to the rules, that’s when. They no longer serve the people. So you have coca, which is this beautiful thing, but somebody comes along Hey, this kind of feels good and we can make a lot of money if we do this. So they take the coca and they treat it with chemicals, and then it becomes this product and people are getting rich and it’s created all these wars and all this death.

But the original plant is a beautiful thing. So to only talk about, eradicating coca, and the same with ayahuasca, you have the beautiful, pure way to do it, or you can, extract the chemicals and, get really high. But you’re not really connecting with it. Cacao is a beautiful medicine, but you overprocess it, you add a lot of chocolate, then it makes you fat.

It’s

Sam Believ: add milk and sugar and you

Danielle de Kisere: Yeah. So then it takes away from the beautiful properties that it has. So every plant has this spiritual owner. And so in the context of Coca, coca has been used by the people you know, of this country for millennia.

It is a powerful medicine. You’ll see the tribes of the Sierra Nevada always walk around with their bag, and they’re always chewing on their leaves. The tribes of the Amazon will turn it into Mabe and share this in their community meetings as a way to connect as community.

So when we talk about eradicating it, you’re not really talking about the real reasons behind this. One problem is you have massive amounts of poverty, and especially here in the rural parts of Columbia where there is no access. You’re here at my farm, it was a whole journey to get here.

Imagine the people that live here that don’t have any access to anything. And here’s a way to quickly make some money. And, there’s no schools, there’s no social services, there’s no nothing, and people need to eat. So you have that. So you can’t just say, we need to eradicate Coca because it has a beautiful purpose.

And there, there is a great need for the people that are growing it. They just really need to feed themselves. They need to send their kids to school. So unless we address the issues that are causing this but that’s, like I said, a whole nother story. Yeah.

Sam Believ: I personally really like Mamba, for example, and it’s a beautiful medicine and.

And tobacco and cacao and I explore a bit of all of them, and they all have their use. It’s just it’s less about the plants themselves and more about the intention with which you use them. Yeah. Should everyone stop drinking coffee and start drinking cacao every morning? Ah,

Danielle de Kisere: I don’t know. It depends on your relationship with coffee.

I’ve never had a cup of coffee in my life. And that is purely because as I was growing up, my mother, who still to this day, cannot function. To do anything without her coffee. Every morning she has to have a cup or two of coffee. So I remember being a kid, we couldn’t go ever do anything. I remember waking up on Christmas morning and there’d be a tree full of presents, and we couldn’t open the presents until my mother had her coffee.

So I decided I was never gonna have coffee. So I don’t drink coffee. But if you have a healthy relationship with coffee, I don’t see any reason why you can’t continue to have that relationship. But if you are only drinking coffee as a way to get yourself motivated every day if you’re, if your coffee has switched from being something pleasurable and something beneficial to your life to being something needed, then that’s when you might need a shift.

I think connecting to cacao is a much better way to start your day because of the properties that cacao has. I think it’s so much more beneficial for you. But people love their coffee and the coffee growers. Grow coffee for a reason and they still need support as well.

Sam Believ: I personally think within the next 50 years, more and more people will start drinking cacao instead of coffee because it’s just, it’s less, less strong, less jittery, more has more property.

So maybe doing both at the same time. But I’m a believer in the future of cacao. So on the topic of cacao you mentioned, cacao culture in colo, they, people, it’s available here, people drink it. What else have you noticed? And do you know why is it, what’s the history of it?

Why is it why is it available here, but not us?

Danielle de Kisere: Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know why the US doesn’t have such a. Cacao culture in the morning. The US is, we have hot chocolate, which is mostly milk, powder and sugar, and a little bit of cocoa. It’s powder. And that’s what I drank growing up as a kid.

I think here in, in Columbia, because there is so much cacao grown here, families all over the place, they’d have, their few cacao trees, they’d roast a little bit on the stove, they’d mash it up and they drink, hot cacao drinks. And this became part of the culture here.

And when you go to a restaurant and for breakfast, you’re given a choice. Do you want cacao or do you want coffee? And you’ll never see that outside of Columbia, I don’t think. But it’s also like the worst possible quality cacao that you will ever encounter. Most of the time it’s absolutely disgusting and I have to cover it up with lots of sugar or cinnamon or.

In some cases cheese. I don’t even know what the cheese or the cacao thing is. But it’s, I like it. I like, our neighbors and friends are really happy when I get a batch of cacao and it doesn’t meet our standards and I give it away so they, they’re not used to super high quality stuff, but that also applies to coffee, because traditionally coffee, all the good coffee was exported and they didn’t know until just recently what good coffee was.

Sam Believ: Yeah. So you mentioned that local people, they just dry it, grind it up, and then make a cow. So that’s a kind of process, but how is that process different? Where you have I’ve seen your little factory there. What’s what’s the process of making good cacao?

Danielle de Kisere: The, one of the.

One of the most important things is that you start off with good quality cacao, and it has to be well fermented, and it has to be well dried. If it, if you don’t have that base, you’re never gonna get anything good out of it. But if we start off with good cacao, then the next really important step is if the roasting it has to be roasted.

I know there’s a huge movement in people that talk about rock cacao, and I can tell you that there is no such thing as rock cacao. For a couple reasons. One is in the fermentation process of fermenting the cac, in fermenting the cacao, it naturally gets up to about 140 degrees which is well above what the raw foodies say is the maximum temperature that qualifies for raw food.

I think it’s what, 110 degrees. And so this naturally occurs if the heat, if it doesn’t naturally generate that heat in the fermentation process, it won’t change the flavor. So if you were to go out in the cacao fields right now and pick a cacao pod first you’d suck off the juice, which you had some cacao juice earlier you’d suck that off.

And then you end up with the bean. And the bean, you can eat it just like that raw but it just tastes like a knot. It doesn’t taste anything like chocolate.

Sam Believ: Same with coffee, right?

Danielle de Kisere: Yeah. So the first part of starting to get the chocolate flavor that everybody is looking for starts in the fermentation.

And if you don’t get it up over that temperature, it’s not going to ferment right. And you’re not gonna get the chocolatey flavor. And the second part of really developing the chocolatey flavor is in the roasting. So if you don’t roast it I do know there’s a company that sells on a roasted cacao. It’s absolutely disgusting.

It doesn’t taste like anything and it certainly doesn’t taste like chocolate. So if you don’t roast it, you’re not gonna get that flavor. And we, we try our best to roast it at a lower temperature for shorter amount of times. That’s one of the big tricks of what if you end up with cacao that doesn’t taste good, is they over roast it for long periods of time to try and kill all those off flavors.

So as long as we start off with a good bean, we just lightly roast it to pull out a little bit more of the cacao flavor. From there we take off the shells. We don’t waste any part of the cacao. I sell the cacao shells as cacao hus tea, which is super, super popular because it’s very light.

It has a nice chocolate flavor. It’s full of the line, full of magnesium, full of all of that stuff. But it has zero calories and zero caffeine. But yeah. Our cacao has tea has gotten so popular that half the time I’m out of it because I can’t produce as much tea as people want. So we separate out the tea and then it goes into the stone grinders.

So they grind for a few days, so they’re perfectly smooth. It’s also in this grinding process that it helps expel all of the acidic and bitter flavors that live in the cacao bean. And it’s very important. I know there are some companies out there that claim to have raw cacao, but there really is no such thing.

If you have something that tastes anything like chocolate, it’s not raw and there is no possible way for it to be raw. There’s, it’s physically, chemically, scientifically impossible.

Sam Believ: Yeah. Last question. Let’s say somebody just did a retreat at Lair and they bought a pack of the cow. They’re back home.

What’s the best way to prepare their morning or afternoon ceremonial cup of cacao?

Danielle de Kisere: I usually use about a half an ounce or in grams it’s 15 grams of cacao per cup. I have to have sugar mine that I use pinella, which is raw. The can literally cane

Sam Believ: juice, sugar, cane

Danielle de Kisere: juice, sugar.

I put a little of that in there. I put it in water. I heat it up and then I have a cacao drink. I don’t usually put milk in mine or any alternative milks. I know lots of people like it that way. I don’t think it needs it. A lot of people like to put cayenne. A lot of people like to put other spices in there.

Cinnamon, I like my pure a little bit sweet. Sometimes it’s just a little touch of salt. Pulls out the chocolate flavor. I don’t like it super strong and super thick. That’s why I use about 15 grams. If I’m preparing it for a ceremony, I might make it thicker to give people a little,

Sam Believ: what is the ceremonial dose that you would give to per person?

Danielle de Kisere: A ceremonial dose should really be between like three quarters and one full ounce. So that’s 20 to 28 grams. But that’ll end up with a really thick cup of cacao which can be difficult. So it also goes back to, it needs to be prepared in a way, but people are gonna enjoy it.

’cause if they don’t enjoy it, they’re not gonna appreciate it. They’re not gonna connect to it, they’re not gonna keep doing it. But on a daily basis, 15, 15 grams of cacao, 20 grams of cacao is more than enough to really feel, and I can feel it even as much cacao as I drink and as much how energy I have around here all the time.

One cup of cacao. And I definitely feel it in the energetic push in my body the movement of energetic flow. It’s really beautiful.

Sam Believ: Very nice. It’s getting dark here, so we’re gonna start to wrap up. Daniel tell the listeners where they can find more about you and where can they get your cacao?

Danielle de Kisere: We are origin cacao.com, which is origin with an E-O-I-O-R-I-G-E-N which is the Spanish spelling origin cacao.com. You can find us on our own website. You can also find us on Amazon in the us, Amazon in the uk, and Amazon in Australia. We have distributors all over the world, so you can find us as Poland, Iceland, the Netherlands.

I sometimes even here, you can find us in ballet at times.

Sam Believ: And you can even find some at Lara store.

Danielle de Kisere: Yes. You do end up selling quite a lot of cacao every month. I’m, yeah. I’m very happy about that. So

Sam Believ: thank you Danielle. Thank you for educating us on topic of cacao. Yeah. Sorry,

Danielle de Kisere: I can nerd out a little bit and,

Sam Believ: I’m sure some people appreciated that.

And I definitely like to learn. Guys you’re listening to Cacao podcast. Just kidding. I ask a podcast as always with you, the host and belief, and I’ll see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you’d like to support us and psychedelic renaissance at large, please follow us and leave us a like, wherever it is you’re listening, share this episode with someone who will benefit from this information.

Nothing in this podcast is intended as medical advice, and it is for educational and entertainment purposes only. This episode is sponsored by Laira Ayahuasca Retreat. At Laira, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity. Laira connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you.

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with Metta Beshay, a filmmaker, musician, and creator known for his citizen-scientist approach to ethnobotany and plant traditions. Metta explores misunderstood substances, Indigenous cultures, and the realities behind modern plant-medicine tourism with humor, skepticism, and deep curiosity.

We touch upon topics of:

• Metta’s path from viral videos to ethnobotany storytelling (03:30–05:00)
• The realities of the Amazon jungle vs romanticized ideas (34:00–36:30)
• Indigenous cultures, tribal politics, and modern monetization (07:30–09:30)
• Comparing Aya experiences with other altered states (26:00–28:00)
• Music, icaros, and sound as a healing tool (19:00–24:00)
• Spirituality vs skepticism and cultural context (38:00–41:30)
• Ethics of retreat culture and shaman training (43:30–45:30)

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to http://www.lawayra.com

Find more about Metta Beshay on YouTube and Instagram at @MettaBeshay

Transcript

Metta Beshay: It’s not something I think a lot of people like to admit, but some people’s icaros are better than others, and some people, their icaros are annoying. Yeah. Dude, the jungle’s fucked. It’s just this crazy place that’s super deadly, and then you’re out there and you’re like, “This sucks.” And then you have these bugs that will bite you.

The mosquitoes alone are just 70% of why it’s miserable. When I smoke DMT, and I’ve done it so many times I cannot count, it’s that same exact feeling, which is a weird psychedelic it feels tryptamine-like, but is warm. There’s this feeling of warmth that I really can’t describe. Does this plant give you the pow- mucha dijra, it’s the plant of good hunting.

Does that actually make you be a good hunter? Yeah, I’ve done almost all the opioids and opium, straight up opium in the, from the desert and all that. That’s fully addictive.

Sam Believ: You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast dot com.

Hi, guys, and welcome to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, with me, the host Sam Belyav. Today I’m having a conversation with Meta Bashay. Meta Bashay is a filmmaker, musician, and documentary creator who has built a massive following by d- by diving into world’s most misunderstood substances. Known for his citizen scientist approach, Meta recently traveled to the heart of the Amazon to peel back the layers of the global ayahuasca industry.

His work bridges the gap between deep ethnobotany and the modern mental health movement, challenging us to look past the marketing and see these plants for what they truly are. This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat. At LaWayra, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity.

LaWayra, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you. Meta, welcome to the show.

Metta Beshay: Dang, that was a good intro. Okay, sick. Thank you.

Sam Believ: Yeah, thank you. Pleasure to have you on. Y- I stumbled upon your video like a few weeks ago, and now we’re talking. That’s pretty cool. I’m, Yeah … I’m glad you you found time.

Your videos are really fun to watch, so we’ll definitely give link to people in the end to find you. Thank you. It’s like your style is… It’s kinda adventurous, but at the same time you provide s- provide science, a little bit of comedy. I really like it. And it’s interesting, you’re… In person, you’re exactly as your…

on your videos. So I know it’s like- … your personality.

Metta Beshay: What what, Do you interview anyone who’s like a different, like when you interview them, they’re just like a completely different personality?

Sam Believ: There’s one way people… Yeah, a lot, most people, they have There’s one way they talk in person, and there’s the other way they talk on interview.

It’s kinda like there’s this slightly enhanced persona always. I’m pretty sure I do it myself. Oh. So it’s very interesting to see when it’s like-

Metta Beshay: Exactly the same …

Sam Believ: yeah. Cool, man. So let’s start with your story. What… Why did you decide to make videos about ayahuasca and other plant medicines?

Metta Beshay: I… my channel blew up because I got big for doing one video. It w- I had videos that were bigger before it, but I had one video that was like trying the best legal highs. And it like got a ton of views. I don’t know, I don’t know how many, it’s like well over 2 million at this point, I think.

And I think I kinda had a decision. It was like, okay, I could be like the drug guy on YouTube, which I feel like every era of YouTube has a drug guy. But the problem with being the drug guy is that it often doesn’t end very well, or it like, it’s just not a very, it’s not a way to be taken seriously.

So I was like, okay, let’s transition a bit to ethnobotany a bit, because I love like culture and history, and that’s what the content I used to do before I did like substances. So then I just kinda transitioned into like ethnobotany, and then fell in love with like the stories of like Richard Evan Schultes.

That’s a recent thing. I’m just like, oh my God, this whole world of like these guys just living in the Amazon is insane

Sam Believ: Cool story for you. Did you know that Richard Evans Schultes actually traveled to Colombia first before he even went to Peru?

Metta Beshay: I actually didn’t. I thought that he… Was he mainly in Peru?

Sam Believ: No, he was b- before Peru, he was mainly in Colombia. That’s what I thought. A lot of people don’t know. Because what happened was Colombia was this Colombia was the center of ayahuasca and psychedelics, and that, that’s where Dennis McKenna and,

…

Sam Believ: McKenna brothers went to. I actually interviewed Den- Dennis McKenna recently as well, and because this was the core of it.

But then narcos happened, and because of that, all of the sort of psychedelic tourism was redirected to Peru.

Metta Beshay: Oh.

Sam Believ: And even to Costa Rica, and it’s interesting because it doesn’t even make any sense because Costa Rica doesn’t even have ayahuasca traditionally, but-

Metta Beshay: Exactly …

Sam Believ: anyways, you definitely have to come to Colombia.

But tell us about your ayahuasca experience in Peru, ’cause I, I saw the video. It’s it was very like- … basically like in the home of some guy. And like, how was it? Did you get any healing from it or…?

Metta Beshay: I know this is the Ayahuasca Podcast. The, the trip was very little about ayahuasca for me.

I did ayahuasca and I was like, “Okay I’m here to do ayahuasca, I was actually originally there to do another plant but the plant ended up being kinda lame, so I was like, “Okay, I gotta transition to ayahuasca.” What was it? It was kunuwaspa.

Sam Believ: What?

Metta Beshay: Kunuwaspa. It’s like a, it’s a sh- it’s a sage plant from the Shipibo that’s like, it’s dripped into the eyes of women to see the designs of the Shipibo.

And the designs of the Shipibo are, like, famously very psychedelic, and so I was basically told “Hey, go out there, do a story on this stuff because it might be psychedelic.” And- … so I went out there and I went they dripped into my eyes for a week straight. Nothing. Because- So I was like, “Oh, that’s not a story.”

Sam Believ: Maybe ’cause you’re not a woman.

Metta Beshay: Yeah, maybe. Maybe. Yeah. I, but I… It’s so funny. I asked… Yeah, that was a whole other story, ’cause I asked a lot of Shipibo about it, and everyone was, like, laughing at me. They were like, “You think that kunuwaspa is psychedelic? That’s insane.” “No, not at all. That’s hilarious.”

I’m like, “Oh,

Sam Believ: oops.” You still had a good story from it,

Metta Beshay: yeah.

Sam Believ: And obviously, if you didn’t make a video about ayahuasca, I would not want to invite you to the podcast,

Metta Beshay: Yeah.

Sam Believ: Tell us about you went to the jungle what… You saw indigenous people and- … people expect them to be, wearing like loincloths or feathers and- how were you surprised there?

Metta Beshay: No, so I’m… the, i’m Egyptian and I’m like, I’m Coptic Egyptian from like South Egypt, so like we’re called Saidis. And we’re also like, indigenous and blah, blah, blah. I assumed- The world is pretty westernized. I kinda figured that people would have regular clothes. That’s not, that wasn’t really that shocking to me.

I think what was more shocking to me was The, the finances of it, the fact that th- they… It’s become normalized for Amazonian people to monetize their tribalness. They’ll amp up their “Oh, see. Look at, I’m wearing peacock feathers,” and it’s like, “Bro, no you don’t.

You have the brand-new iPhone.” What are you talking about? But I think also the thing that was, I think, more shocking, I think, not even shocking, was really interesting to me, was the, What… How do I say it? The tribal politics. It’s just so fun. I was with Shipibo people, and then I would be like, what other tribes around here?”

And then they’d be like, “Okay, there’s Achuar over there.” And I’m like what are they like?” And then they’ll be like, “Oh here’s this stereotype.” They’d be like Achuar women are kinda seen as they’re the baddies,” right? But then Achuar men are kinda seen as kinda machismo, and it’s oh my God every person has their own, sorry, not Achuar. What’s the tribe that I’m talking about? It’s not Achuar. It’s another one, but there’s a ton, and it’s just very interesting to me that there’s so many stereotypes, and even the people who are literally neighbors, like the Cacaotaibo and the Shipibo, who are, like, historical neighbors, they don’t know a lot about each other because there’s no reason to go and hang out with each other, and in fact sometimes they have wars with each other even though they’re next-door neighbors.

It’s very interesting.

Sam Believ: Have you ever heard about them having shamans having spiritual wars against each other while they’re all on ayahuasca at the same time?

Metta Beshay: I’ve heard, I have heard with what’s the oth- what’s the DMT I think it’s a seed or something that you snort. It’s not ne- Yopo?

Yopo. I’ve heard yopo but that was not through my experience there. That was, like, some YouTuber who was like, “Yeah, you’re doing-” “… spiritual warfare.” Is that a thing that… Hold on, actually, are there Shipibos in Colombia or no?

Sam Believ: No, Shipibo is m- proven. In Colombia, you have eight or nine different tribes that work with ayahuasca traditionally.

Metta Beshay: What are the tribes, or what’s the main one that white people go with?

Sam Believ: Inga, Camsá, Cofán, Siona. There’s more. I’m always forgetting the names. Of course. They’re all very difficult to remember.

Metta Beshay: But, is there a certain tribe that most, like when gringos come, they go to work with that tribe usually?

I

Sam Believ: think the most common ones is the more popular ones for medicine are Cofán and Inga. I work with an Inga shaman because they’re, like, for example, Rythmia, this sort of very popular ayahuasca tree, they have an Inga shaman, and Cofánas are very popular locally. But they’re both really deeply connected with the medicine for thousands of years.

Yeah. I’ve even interviewed people that said that ayahuasca comes from Colombia, but of course- It’s a little tricky to say because it’s gonna ruffle some feathers.

Metta Beshay: Yeah. It’s also- what we- It, y- it comes from a lot of different tribes of different, like-

Sam Believ: Yeah …

Metta Beshay: it, and it predates Spanish Inquisition, so it’s like-

Sam Believ: Yeah

Metta Beshay: You can’t really put a location.

Sam Believ: Here in Colombia they have this thing, it’s oh, like arepa is from Colombia. Arepa is this cornbread that’s round.

Metta Beshay: Okay.

Sam Believ: And Venezuelans are like, “No, arepa is from Venezuela, obviously.” Y-

Yeah. But if you really look, go back, they used… Before, when arepa was created, there was no Colombian, there was no Venezuelan.

Exactly. Exactly. There was people doing it. It’s a, it’s just a very simple way to eat corn. Yeah. So it’s like, it’s a, it’s e- it’s a pretty obvious design that people would probably come up with, m- whichever way. But I worked with a shaman once, and he was like, “I don’t wanna start ceremony at 9:00 PM because that’s when everyone starts, and there are these shamans.

I don’t wanna meet them let’s start later.” Because of- … because of that. They, it’s almost radio- It’s like the radio waves are too busy. It’s better to do it later when everyone’s asleep,

Metta Beshay: yeah. I, we didn’t- There’s definitely some- … talk about that, but we did talk a lot about I talked a lot about the philosophy of an icaro.

Which is icaro the same thing with the Inga as well?

Sam Believ: No so there’s a couple differences between Colombian tradition and Peruvian tradition. First one is they sing icaro, and every shaman has their icaros, but they only do it in the beginning of the ceremony and then during the cleanses. They rarely do it in the middle of the ceremony.

Instead, in the middle of the ceremony, shaman sings medicine music, which is basically like a more formal songs with lyrics. Sometimes in- Oh, that people know … the indigenous. Yeah, and sometimes in Spanish. But then it’s like there’s guitars, sometimes there’s flutes. It’s a bit more … The music is, let’s say, it’s a bit more advanced.

Metta Beshay: Yeah.

Sam Believ: It’s pretty just the music itself is pretty concert-like. You as a musician I think would appreciate that. You should definitely come by. We have a cool band here as well.

Metta Beshay: That’s sick.

Sam Believ: … Yeah. And then the second difference is there’s less of a focus on dieting plants, but more of a focus of purges.

They still have all the same plants, but they take them mostly to purge, like intense purging. And there’s like 20 different types and “Oh, you take this one if you have this, and you take this one if you have this.” There’s still … They still do some plant dieting, but mostly it’s “Okay you wanna go deeper?

Go purge on this,” like stuff that makes you go blind- … for two hours. I recommend, by the way, it’s really good, it’s called chicha.

Metta Beshay: Okay.

Sam Believ: It’s terrifying, but people feel amazing afterwards. You should make a video about this. This would be really interesting.

Metta Beshay: No, I think I might, actually.

That, that might be a good reason to go to Colombia about purges, ’cause they do purges in … Some people do purges in Shipibo tradition, but it’s also not everyone does, and it’s also just … I think that the funny thing is there’s the an- there’s the traditional way of Ayahuasca, and then there’s the modernized way that’s not necessarily bastardized with m- like gringo monetization.

But it’s the way that everyday Shipibo, like a Shipibo family does it, is very much “Oh, let’s have a family trip,” and let’s … like for example, one of the fam- one of the sons, he was taking a trip and he’d never left the country before. And so before we held a ceremony for him, and it was just us in a circle, like, doing Ayahuasca, like talking about our feelings type shit.

And it was like- Yeah … so it was … They, I think in that case it would be like, why would you do a … we don’t need to purge. We’re just trying to set you off for a good trip to Argentina, where he was going, right?

Sam Believ: Yeah.

Metta Beshay: But yeah, the purges are, like, a thing. Yeah … and I was terrified. I was like, “I really don’t wanna do that.”

Sam Believ: The, the other difference is that- the ayahuasca is two ingredients, right? You cooked it, I saw it in your video. But- Yeah … in Colombian tradition, they have they use DMT shrub called chagropanga or changro.

Metta Beshay: Is it psy- And they cook- … psychotria viridis? It is, it’s the same… Is it the same plant?

Sam Believ: No. So s- diplo- Diplopterys something.

That’s the name.

Metta Beshay: Oh, got it. Yes. The

Sam Believ: psychotria viridis is chacruna, and chagro- chagropanga is Diplopterys cabritana or something like that.

Metta Beshay: Okay.

Sam Believ: And they, some people say it’s a different kind of DMT, which is more intense, whatever. But I think if you do a blind test and people try Peruvian ayahuasca and Colombian, no- nobody c- actually can tell a difference.

Metta Beshay: Yeah. Have you done Peruvian ayahuasca?

Sam Believ: No, never. I really wanna try, but I’ve… I started here and I just never had a chance.

I definitely… i’m just waiting for the invitation. So it’s interesting about the indigenous people. You can have a shaman and he can be wearing feathers and singing chants- and look prehistoric.

Metta Beshay: Yeah.

Sam Believ: And then couple hours later, he’s on WhatsApp.

Metta Beshay: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. With a

Sam Believ: new iPhone.

Metta Beshay: But I think also, I was very clear in the beginning with that ’cause they were trying to do that with me. And I, in the video I talk about it. ‘Cause they’re like, they were trying to be…

they put on the Shipibo clothing and they were like, oh, they were hitting me with the, “My Shipibo name is this.” Mi- Miyaki Hawakuskarataniki. They’re hitting me with

all the stuff to give me experience, and I was very blunt. “I don’t give a flying fuck. I’m here- … to see what you guys are actually like in real life. Stop hitting me with the gringo experience ’cause I just don’t care.”

Sam Believ: It’s also very interesting that you’re from Egypt ’cause a lot of times, starting my first ayahuasca experience and then many times afterwards, I had…

and I’ve seen experiences with Egypt. My first ayahuasca experience- … was all about Egypt. Literally- Really? … pyramids, sphinxes all kinds of stuff. I even had a explicit message that if I go to Egypt, I will receive a gift. I still haven’t went. It was, like, six years ago, probably. So it’s, and a lot of people that drink the medicine, they go to this Egypt realm. It’s all about Egyptian gods. I hang out w- I hang out with the d- Egyptian god with the crocodile head about 20 ceremonies ago. It’s crazy and I don’t know, I don’t know what it is. I have a theory that maybe in ancient Egypt they were tripping on something and they kinda, like-

Metta Beshay: They were.

Sam Believ: They were … smoking DMT. Yeah, do you know anything about that?

Metta Beshay: Yeah. With Egypt, I was talking to some researchers at UC Berkeley recently. And was UC… Yeah, it was UC Berkeley, and they’re doing some research on blue lotus, right? And so we were talking about blue lotus ceremonies, or not ceremonies, but blue lotus use in ancient Egypt because it’s all but completely almost extinct in Egypt now.

But with the blue lotus samples, they actually found mandrake, mandragora samples in, and mandragora is, I think it’s in the Solanaceae family. It contains sc- scopolamine, so it’s the same thing as toe. It’s the same thing as datura. It’s like the Solanaceae family has a ton of that, that fucking scopolamine d- like deliriant bullshit.

And yeah, so you will trip balls similar to Amazonian people who are also tripping balls on toe and scopolamine derived plants.

Sam Believ: Do you reckon ancient Egyptians were tripping on something when they’re building pyramids?

Metta Beshay: No. I think historically what we have record of is that it was like, I forgot the proper term for it, but you know how like in a lot of countries like Korea you’ll have a mandatory service, like you have two years of mandatory service to your country in the military?

That’s what I think the, is the best, like what Egypt- ancient Egyptian historians say, is that it was like a two-year or whatever amount of time that y- the regular Egyptians had to contribute to working for the king to build these pyramids for the, the king, Khufu and Sneferu and, the crew.

I was really into ancient Egypt. Bef- I did ancient Egypt content before I was into psychedelia

Sam Believ: Yeah, I think there is definitely some kind of connection. I would like to figure it out. But there’s definitely s- spiritual significance to megalithic structures.

If you were to take ayahuasca at top of the pyramid, I’m sure you would be, like, extra tripping, or maybe inside of

Metta Beshay: it.

Yeah. But yeah. Yeah, I wouldn’t be surprised. Yeah. Yeah, the ancient Egyptians were- They used to dump… As far as drug use, I think we have record, I think potentially it was opium, blue lotus, potentially mandragora. And peyote I sadly do not know. Caffeine was in, was I- probably after, ’cause it was, like…

Anyway, it doesn’t matter. But yeah.

Sam Believ: So you went to the jungle. You mentioned Icaros, right? As a musician, ’cause I know you’re also a musician.

How was it for you? Were you inspired to create your own? How-

Metta Beshay: … Would you say? I talked to a lot of people about Icaros. Icaros are so funny.

One, it, the i- the idea of an Icaro was very foreign to me at first, ’cause I was like, “Oh let’s learn an Icaro.” I thought Icaro was just their word for a song, right? And then it took a while, it probably took two weeks for me to realize oh no, Icaro is in-the-moment thing that you do that is inspired by the person and the trip and all that kind of stuff.

But I, I, but I was really I was really interested in the actual technical musical stuff of it. I was like, okay, I think the first thing I was like, “Okay, what scale are they using?” And the first guy that I was listening to his Icaro he was singing in a penta- a minor pentatonic, right?

And I was like, “Oh so it sounds like your guys’ like, traditional scales are minor pentatonic,” which is just my assumption. But then I listened to another Icaro, and it was not a minor pentatonic, and it was a completely different time timing type of thing. And what I realized was it was like, oh, because everyone listens to modern music now, there’s no way to really try to get what, what old pre-colonial music sounded like at the time.

So I was just kinda oh, it’s just kinda like this inspired thing. And the funny thing about talking to a lot of people about Icaros was that it’s not something I think a lot of people like to admit, but some people’s Icaros are better than others, and some people, Icaros are annoying. Some people, I’ve heard some people be like, “Yeah, this one shaman or curandero, she was just really whiny.”

“Eh.” And then they were like, “It just ruined the whole trip.” And I’m like, “Yeah, that makes total sense.”

Sam Believ: Yeah. Interesting, like my seventh ever ceremony, which is about, yeah, probably about five years ago.

I was in Ayahuasca ceremony. It was in the jungle, I was in the hammock, and I went to this super deep trip where I was, basically, my understanding was that it was revealed to me what the universe, mechanism of the universe is, like what’s under the bonnet. The

Metta Beshay: hood.

Sam Believ: Yeah. What’s under the hood. And there were some entities and they were showing me around and they said “Yeah, come in, check it out. We’re very busy.”

And as I was doing it, I was singing Icaros. People told me I was singing Icaros. I don’t remember any of it. So they say that at some stage, if you keep drinking medicine the medicine will not for every people, but I guess some people who, whose path it is, they’ll, it’ll put you on a shamanic path.

Ah. And when it happens, it gives you your Icaro. And so I’ve been on this path for a long time and I organized the retreats, but I never really… I’m not a shaman, I’m not even trying to be one.

Metta Beshay: Yeah.

Sam Believ: But it’s been coming to me, like different kinda learnings

Metta Beshay: and, Do you listen to the Icaros in the indigenous language, or do you listen to it in Spanish or your own language?

Sam Believ: No. So my shaman, his Icaros are mix of 50% Inga language and- That’s- … 50% Spanish. Yeah, I can recognize some words.

Metta Beshay: Yeah. Other,

Sam Believ: like- Medicina.

Metta Beshay: They’ll throw in a medicina, a poderoso medicina, and then they’ll hit up there. Something like this. Yeah. Yeah. Or

Sam Believ: Cura and some- something like that from the- Yeah … the typical, the usual sus- suspects. But mine are always just sounds. There, there is no letters. I think that-

…

Sam Believ: I think that the, it’s more about the intention and the certain sound. So for last couple ceremonies it’s like the Icaros kind of made reemergence in my life and now I’m actually kinda remembering them.

I recorded it, and mine sounds like a lullaby.

Metta Beshay: Ah.

Sam Believ: And normally it comes to me in the ceremony where I’m in a really low place. Like I’m in a, I’m very in, in a lot of pain. It’s very intense trip. I start tapping my chest, and then I start like singing an Icaro, and it starts like vibrating my body and putting it, putting my trip to a very positive, like e- exalted place.

So it’s kinda I guess- That, at least, and I l- I sang it to people. They’re like, “It sounds like a lullaby.” And I’m like it’s better than when you said whining.”

Metta Beshay: Annoying whining, yeah. Yeah. And it, but it’s funny that the icaro, like that was one of the things that I learned.

And to go back to what we were talking about like shaman war and all that kind of stuff, was they explained to me, multiple different curanderos explained to me that the icaro is like a tool. Think about it as a tool to basically take you out of ban- bad spiritual mindsets or worlds.

So they, like in their like original creencia, they have their relig- original religion has four worlds, and one of them is called pan- I think Panchinatu, which is the yellow world or the evil world. And sometimes they said you can go there, and the icaro can be a way to take you out. And then sometimes you actually have shamans or witches or not Mushaya.

Brujos. Yeah, brujos. They’ll have people will do witch- witchcraft on you, and then the icaro is gonna s- clean that out of you.

Sam Believ: And do they use guira in the, in the-

Metta Beshay: I didn’t see anyone use anything like that. I wouldn’t be surprised if some other people do. Is that an Inga thing or is that like a Colombian

Sam Believ: thing?

That’s a very common… i’ve definitely seen shamans from… They’ll either use feathers or this, but basically this is to move the energies, and they also sing with it. As they chant- … rhythmically, they move it.

Metta Beshay: Oh.

Sam Believ: And then-

Metta Beshay: It’s an almost an instrument. Yeah.

Sam Believ: Yeah. So because it’s basically like a rattle style sound.

Metta Beshay: Is, what’s the population of Inga?

Sam Believ: I think it’s about 5,000 people.

Metta Beshay: Oh, they’re a very s- wow, they’re a small group. Wow. Do they- Yeah … do they, Holy smokes. Whoa. H- do you know how many communities exist?

Sam Believ: Couple there’s different there’s different like tribal sorta centers.

Metta Beshay: Yeah.

Sam Believ: As far as I know, at least three, three of them.

Have you- Most of them are pretty modern. They just live in the cities now and-

Metta Beshay: Have you ever been to like some like, like out in the, out deep in the jungle communities or no?

Sam Believ: I don’t know. I don’t know if that’s that deep. I’ve never been to places where you like take a boat and then you take a horse ride and then you walk.

Metta Beshay: Okay.

Sam Believ: No, maybe like maximum two, three hours from- Okay … from the main road.

Metta Beshay: Yeah.

Sam Believ: Yeah. No, I, like- But it’s like if you fly a drone, all is jungle.

Metta Beshay: Yeah, it’s

Sam Believ: terrifying. It’s it’s kinda hard to say what is deep?

Metta Beshay: It’s true. No, it’s true. ‘Cause it’s like I was in Pucallpa, which is like deep, deep in the jungle, but it’s a city of 20,000.

And literally you ask any person from Pucallpa, “Hey, have you been to the jungle?” They go, “Fuck no. I’ve never been to the jungle. I’ll never go out there.” Yeah. That shit’s crazy.

Sam Believ: Yeah. So before, before you worked with ayahuasca you s- you smoked DMT, right? So how- Yeah … how was it similar or different?

Metta Beshay: The, the… I found it’s, you know- it’s similar to any drug, that when you change the route of administration, it changes the experience a lot, but it doesn’t change the feeling necessarily. So th- with, like, when I smoke DMT, and I’ve done it so many times I cannot count it’s that same exact feeling, which is a weird psychedelic it feels tryptamine-like, but is warm.

There’s this feeling of warmth and, that I really can’t describe. It’s just a weird warm feeling. Not in an opiate warm comfort feeling. It’s a different type of warmth. But it was that, but then when I compared it with actually drinking Ayahuasca, I think– I just talked to one of my chemistry friends about it.

They said because of the MAOIs in the vine, that’s what causes, like, that heavy sedation, that yawning, that the just this super sleepy f- feeling of Ayahuasca, which I found very pleasant. I like that a lot.

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Visit lawayra.com to book your retreat or learn more. LaWayra: Connect, heal, grow. L-A-W-A-Y-R-A.com So fun fact I’m, let me show you something

Metta Beshay: Okay

Sam Believ: This is very new. I haven’t shown it to anyone, but I-

Metta Beshay: Ooh … I’m

Sam Believ: working on a product. It’s called Only Vines.

Metta Beshay: Okay. Oh, okay.

Sam Believ: And it, it- It’s specifically, it’s a play on words, but it’s basically just a vine by itself.

Metta Beshay: Brilliant.

Sam Believ: Yeah. So- Here I have the ayahuasca

Metta Beshay: Oh, not gonna lie, ayahuasca. Oh, I love it. Oh.

Sam Believ: Here, we love that. And then I dry it and I grind it, and I put it in pills.

And when… Because basically it’s legal because it doesn’t contain DMT.

Metta Beshay: Yeah,

Sam Believ: just tell me why. And I, I, and I’ve found the potential, so I experimented on myself.

If I take a few capsules, let’s say I’m, like, in a really bad mood or I’m struggling with stuff, I take a few capsules and it really helps me. So it’s basically similar to mushroom microdosing, but it’s not illegal. So I’m kinda trying to experiment now. I just, I’m just giving bottles away for free to people

Metta Beshay: to

Sam Believ: try and

Metta Beshay: support.

Do you know estimated how much, like, how many, like- milligrams or micrograms of harmala alkaloids, like the MAOIs in

Sam Believ: it no idea whatsoever. But when I was experimenting, the reason I remembered about is because you said this heavy sedation. When I first experimented with it, I ground some up and I made a tea from it, like a teaspoon.

And that’s what I felt, like very heavy in my body, and I was like, “No, that’s too much.” That’s ki- that’s kinda how I figured out the dose.

Metta Beshay: That’s

Sam Believ: dope. But it’s interesting that the vine itself is pretty, it’s pretty trippy as well. People, a lot of people think that it j- it’s just to activate the DMT, which it is, but it’s also, if you take enough by itself, you can start tripping on your own DMT supply.

I don’t know if you know anything about it.

Metta Beshay: Yeah, end- endogenous DMT, yeah. That’s, yeah. That’s that’s really interesting. I like that. But I think Hamilton Morris, I think, when he was in the Amazon, he actually, I think he made in his video two different tinct- like, just teas.

I think he made a tea just of the vine and drank that first, and then drank some DMT chacruna leaves afterwards. But I think w- as he drove it drunk the vine, he actually described it as “Oh,” “I’m, I feel very sleepy.” But I could be wrong about that. But yeah, it’s a, it’s an interesting plant.

It’s… I, yeah. Ayahuasca vine is sick.

Sam Believ: So it’s funny that you compared it with opium. You know- … you don’t expect people trying opium. So you’ve tried opium before?

Metta Beshay: Yeah. I’ve done almost all the opioids and opium. Straight up opium in the, from the desert and all that.

Sam Believ: Was it not, like, super addictive?

Metta Beshay: No, it’s fully addictive. It is… yeah, you do it and you’re like, “Yeah, this is crazy. This is super addictive.” It’s not as good as let’s say oxy or fentanyl, or some chemically derived stuff. It’s a lot more nauseating. It’s not as euphoric. There’s a lot more side effects- Yeah

which is often with plants, but it’s still pretty fucking good.

Sam Believ: So you did it s- just for science purposes, I’m assuming. Just-

Metta Beshay: Sure. Yeah …

Sam Believ: sac- sacrifice for yourself.

Metta Beshay: Yeah, totally. Yeah. Oh, I hated doing it. Oh, I hated it.

Sam Believ: Technically I’ve self-imposed limits when it comes to drugs/medicines.

Ah. And for me, it’s like I’ve o- I would only engage with things that have a tradition of at least 1,000 years or more. So ayahuasca, San Pedro, Opium … ibogaine.

And so m- so basically, technically, I could do opium,

Metta Beshay: you could- For I want … shit, would you do let’s say, an ayahuasca extract?

Or D- have you smoked DMT?

Sam Believ: No

Metta Beshay: You never smoked it?

Sam Believ: No. It’s a self-imposed limit. I can take it off any time I want, but it’s- Yeah … it’s kinda cool because people ask me like, “Oh, have you done LSD or have you tried MDMA?” I’m like, “No. No, I’m just traditional, just the classic stuff.”

Metta Beshay: That’s… ‘Cause it’s a funny one because you can get… Have you ever snorted cocaine?

Sam Believ: No.

Metta Beshay: Wow. Oh, so you really have

Sam Believ: like- Not a single time.

Metta Beshay: Wow.

Sam Believ: And interestingly enough, not for the lack of access to it. When I first came- Oh my God … to Colombia, like I would go and visit a guy at the party and there was like a brick of cocaine on the middle of a glass table, and everyone was like, do it.”

And it’s like, “It’s not addictive.” And I’m like, “No, I’m good.” The next day they do it again and they say they’re not gonna do it again, and they do it again. I’m like no, it’s definitely addictive.” So I never touched that stuff. Coca, traditionally, yes. I have some in my cheek right now. Yep. Pamba.

Metta Beshay: Yep.

Sam Believ: But so yeah, I think the reason, maybe except for opium, generally traditional stuff that’s like, has, has an ancient tradition, you kinda know that not only people did it, but they were…

They did it and they survived to procreate and have a next generation without any genetical mutations.

Metta Beshay: Yeah. So I guess

Sam Believ: it keeps me safe.

Metta Beshay: Yeah I don’t think that’s too far off. I think I have a similar thing about like, when you do the traditional stuff, at least when you try to stick to how it’s originally done, you can somewhat know that humans, naturally we do science and naturally we do “Hey, it’s okay to do it this.

It’s not okay to do it like this.” So when you do it like a traditional way, you know at least thousands of people have tried that way, so you know you’re not fucked. So it’s… I like that mentality. That’s an interesting one. Yeah.

Sam Believ: Yeah, just a safety, just a precaution. So you went to jungle and like people glorify jungle and you said- that it kinda sucks and the mosquitoes and everything. It blows. Can you talk to us about that?

Metta Beshay: Yeah. Yeah. Dude, the jungle’s fucked. It’s funny because I grew up, I don’t know I grew up in an era where like Nat Geo was like the shit, and like I… The, the Amazon jungle is something that you’re raised knowing, like that is it’s the closest thing to, this adventure into outer space.

It’s just like this crazy place that’s super deadly. And like I remember before going there, I was looking up like, “What animals can kill me? What’s the most poisonous this? What’s like the crocodile population?” I was looking all into that. But I was just so excited because you see these videos of these people in here and you get to see life forms that, it’s just amazing. And then you’re out there and you’re like, “This sucks. This is so hard.” This is a hard… it’s rainy one second and it thunders and it’s the rain from hell, and then the next second, it is burning hot outside. You’re getting sunburned instantly and then you have these bugs that will bite you, will…

The mosquitoes alone are just 70% of why it’s miserable. I feel like there… If there was no mosquitoes there, it would be so much more tolerable. But the mosquitoes is just, when you are not adjusted to it, it’s just hell. It’s so terrible. But it, I will say I’ll probably go… I’m going right back to Peru in a couple weeks, in a few weeks to this same area.

And I’ll probably go back in the jungle if I get the opportunity. I’ll complain about it. It is fun. It’s just terrible.

Sam Believ: Yeah. Mosquitoes kinda create constant stress. It’s like you just can’t rest. They’re just at you all the time.

Metta Beshay: How do you deal… How long have you been in Colombia?

Sam Believ: So I’ve been here for nine years, but where, in the area where we are, there’s- … one mosquito a day probably and th- there’s other things- huh … that bite you, like small flies, but it’s not a problem. When you go to the jungle, yeah I really don’t like it because I think for me, if I am being attacked by mosquitoes while I’m on Ayahuasca, for example, it kinda just gives me a bad trip because I don’t feel safe.

I don’t feel- Yeah … I can’t really relax.

Metta Beshay: Totally. No, it suck- and it… Oh my God it’s exhausting. And also, the thing about it, for me when I was there and I was doing it with the family, is that almost all of them have just a, a natural… They they, when they get bit they don’t have much of a reaction at all.

And so they’re not as conscious of how miserable it is to not be them. I’d be in a setting and I’d be like, “Hey, is there mosquitoes?” And they’ll be like, “Yeah.” And I’ll be like, “Guys, please be sensitive to the fact that it’s hell. It’s hell on Earth.” I showed my back and my, my hands to the kids in the community I was in the jungle, and they were all like, they looked in awe like I’d just gotten shot.

They were like, “This is… I’ve, we’ve never seen this before.”

Sam Believ: But you were okay, didn’t get any malaria, any fancy- Nah … dengue or

Metta Beshay: jungle disease? Nah. I got a, I got an infection on my foot that I thought I was gonna lose my foot. I was terrified. But, that was fine. Got, got a random doctor to cut it on my foot.

Sam Believ: You get like a pirate’s foot afterwards

Metta Beshay: You do. Oh, I’ve got the, I have the gnarliest scar on my left foot right now. It’s fucked. Yeah.

Sam Believ: Sorry about that.

Metta Beshay: Yeah.

Sam Believ: Another thing you talk about is like the concept of plant dueno or like-

…

Sam Believ: Different plants have different powers. What, what have you dis- Got ’em

what have you discovered there? Any- anything cool?

Metta Beshay: I think, I think- I think you and me are probably different on this. I’m not very spiritual naturally. I’m almost entirely not spiritual. I have some things where I’m a little bit hooey-wooey, but I’m very much fact…

like in a boring science-y way, fact-based. I’m very much “This is what I can write about as an objective this,” right? So as far as dueños, I think they’re interesting. I think that they can lead you do- down a path of understanding the plant somewhat. But I also think just like saints in, in, in Catholicism, it’s just a way for people to have good luck charms.

It’s like, does this saint actually give you the power of luck or of pregnancy? No. Does this plant give you the po- Like mocha dijrao, which is a plant that I mentioned in the video, it’s the plant of good hunting. Does that actually make you be a good hunter? Probably not, but it probably does because of the lucky charm aspect of it, of the fact that when you rub it on your hands, you feel extra like, “Oh, I’m gonna hit this shot,” and you hit it, right?

So I think it’s just, I think in every culture has it. Like in ancient Egyptian cultures like to this day, Coptics and Muslims will still have some symbols that mean something, like the evil eye, that the evil eye is still something that can either be lucky or bad depending on when it is used and how it is used.

And it just empowers people to be like, “I have this thing on me that gives me the strength that I need in this moment.” I think that’s how I think of dueños. It’s like this, this plant that keeps you in touch. I also, to go on a little bit l- left of a tangent on that, I actually talked to one of the guys who’s a curandero there, and I was like, “Is it ever weird dieting these plants with gringos that wanna become shamans as well?”

And he was like, “No.” And then I pressed him a little bit harder, and he was like, “Yeah, it can be a little weird because the thing about it is that we’re, like, born and raised with this. These plants are not… they’re around us all the time.” It is A- and there’s a context, there’s a cultural understanding that no one except for them can ever understand a fraction of.

And it’s no different of my hometown. If you move to my hometown, it might take you 10 years to understand a fraction of the stereotypes that I understand. If you go to Dallas, the next-door neighbors, right? You’ll be like, “Oh, the stereotype is they’re racist.” But then I’ll be like no.

You have no idea. On this block, this happened to this year.” There’s just so much context that you just have to grow up with it to understand the power of it. And the same thing with dueños. It’s like they can tell me, pion colorado is really good for good vibes, right? But I’ll never understand the full context of what that means to them, even if I study it for the rest of my life, ’cause I’m just not them.

Sam Believ: Yeah, for sure. That’s that’s why I kinda stick with indigenous shamans. I just think that-

Metta Beshay: Yes.

Sam Believ: Precisely … even just the fact to kinda be… If you came up with it, then you kinda deserve to get the benefit of it as well from that point of view. But, Yeah, financially too. Yeah,

Metta Beshay: exactly …

Sam Believ: but there’s a plant that is good for fishers and hunters.

Do you reckon there is a plant that makes people better YouTubers and documentary producers?

Metta Beshay: Methylphenidate and Adderall. I don’t know.

Sam Believ: Adderall plant,

Metta Beshay: yeah. Yeah, the Adderall plant. Or ephedra. I guess there is an Adderall plant. So yeah, the ephedra plant.

Sam Believ: Ephedra. Oh, yeah, that’s… I think you may have…

You talked about, right? It’s a plant that was the inspiration for methamphetamine?

Metta Beshay: Yeah. That’s where meth comes from. Ephedra sinica, but there’s… Ephedra is a genus specie- a, a genus name, so there’s tons of different… There’s Ephedra gerardiana, there’s Ephedra viridis, and they multiple of them have basically the compounds that you can turn into meth.

But alone they are pretty stimulating. It’s pretty methy when you do it alone, just the plant, like a tea. Very

Sam Believ: methy. ‘Cause there was, like, ephedrine, right? Like an allergy drug or something like that, and people use it- Yeah … to make meth from it.

Metta Beshay: Yeah. Hold on.

Sam Believ: Same root basically

Metta Beshay: I have This, this room is basically like a museum of like plants and chemical things that are actually all legal but I just have a ton of just weird stuff. So this is the stuff that people usually used to, in the old days, used to make meth- Yeah … out of, right? Pseudoephedrine. But then this is over the counter still.

This is a- this is asthma. This is what’s… Bronchade, right? So it’s ephedrasulfate ephedrine sulfate, which is in the ephedra plants. You take a pill, this is for asthma, but if you take one of these, it’s straight up like, like methy. It’s pretty methy. I’m like… Sometimes I take them when I like, don’t have like I’m like, I, I took them on my trip because I didn’t have enough of my prescription, and so I did it.

It’s very energizing. Not that you should do it, anyone listening. I’m just saying scientifically, yes.

Sam Believ: I assume you obviously have asthma, right?

Metta Beshay: Yes. Such bad asthma.

Sam Believ: You may or may not have asthma- … for disclaimer reasons.

Metta Beshay: Of course.

Sam Believ: It’s it’s interesting that you talk about shaman wannabes.

So we have,

…

Sam Believ: We’ve had people that come and they do Ayahuasca with us for the first time.

And then they come back three months later with diplomas. Saying “Look, I’m a shaman, I’m ready to work. Let’s do it.” So it’s, there’s definitely this thing. Mostly they get those diplomas in Peru.

There’s a lot of people there that-

Metta Beshay: That’s so Peru … like

Sam Believ: in Peru you can even buy Ayahuasca in the market. In Colombia, it’s still like very kinda controlled, like it’s a little bit more hidden and a bit more respected still. Good. Kinda because the psychedelic tourism went somewhere else. So in a way Narcos protected Colombia from like being overrun-

Metta Beshay: Good

Sam Believ: by, by the psychedelic tourism. Because I think there’s good psychedelic tourism, like responsible, but there’s also just like a taxi driver selling you Ayahuasca. And I think that- Which is

Metta Beshay: half of Peru. That is literally half of Peru.

Sam Believ: Yeah. It’s

Metta Beshay: exhausting.

Sam Believ: And you’re not gonna find it in Colombia.

I just went to the jungle and we’re also doing a documentary. So a friend of mine, his name is Sam Lippman Stern or Stern, he’s he’s a documentary director. He was actually nominated for Emmy.

And his documentary is like one of the best, most seen documentaries on HBO of like 2024,

Metta Beshay: sick.

Sam Believ: And he tried Ayahuasca with us. He got super inspired, now we’re making a documentary. And we went and we tried to find it, and like even on the market where they sell like all the plants, you ask for it and they’re like, “Yeah, like maybe there’s this one guy, but like I’m not sure.” Like they’re still very- and here in Colombia it’s not legal. It’s actually only legal if you have a shaman with a permit from an indigenous council. So it’s kinda a doctor can give you a morph- morphine because he’s a doctor. Like a shaman can prescribe you Ayahuasca. So I think it’s a very legit structure they have

Metta Beshay: here.

That’s cool. That’s way better. ‘Cause in Peru it’s legal literally anyone is a shaman. It’s anyone Yeah And there’s no verification of anything, so that’s cool that there is a little bit of a process of you can’t just call yourself a shaman one day. You gotta be something.

Sam Believ: Yeah. And you also said that you’re not spiritual and that I’m spiritual.

So w- the only- … thing I can tell you, if you continue working with plant medicines or be it ayahuasca or something else-

…

Sam Believ: Give it five years. You’ll I think it’s, I think spirituality is inevitable because w- being born is a spiritual process and dying is a spiritual process and a lot in between.

We’re s- we just- … we’re not really connected to it. It took me a few years of a lot of ayahuasca, but now I just can’t deny it anymore because of the things that I’ve seen. ‘Cause I’m tra- originally I’m an engineer.

And I come from Eastern Europe. There was no religion there basically because it was Soviet Union.

I believed in nothing. I was very

Metta Beshay: dip,

Sam Believ: Ath- atheistic or agnostic. But since I’ve seen so much and kinda unexplainable stuff, like invisible connections between people and paranormal things, and I’m like, I’m pretty spiritual now. I’m I’m afraid to admit.

Metta Beshay: Yeah. I don’t think I fight against it like I used to.

I used to fight against it, and now I think I’ll have a f- spiritual thought,” and I will like, I’ll allow it to be there. But I also think it’s a bit of a mentality thing. I’ve been to I’ve been into ethnobotany shit since I was, like, a kid. I was really, like I was just…

I’ve always been, like, a nerd with this stuff. I think it’s just a framing of mind. I think, like, when people talk about spirituality stuff, I can vibe with it. I can be like, “I understand where you’re coming from. You’re just using different terms that I wouldn’t use, but I think you’re saying the same thing.”

And I think as I age, I just get more sympathetic towards that. So sure, I agree.

Sam Believ: Nice. So let’s talk about ethnobotany. Tell us about your favorite plant finds, whether it’s in Amazon or somewhere else. What are the coolest plants you’ve been-

…

Sam Believ: Discovering or making videos about? ‘Cause I know you’ve done quite a lot.

Metta Beshay: I’m trying to think. The coolest plants. There’s so many. I think my natural inclination is opium, just because I like that one the most, and it’s just cool. It’s s- it’s like useful in a lot of ways. It’s chemically, a lot of chemicals have been derived from it. It’s just really awesome, and it’s also like the easiest thing in human history to grow.

It’s like the seed, like poppy seeds are those tiny things in muffins. You just fucking throw them out there with no nothing, and if it’s in the right cli- it just grows like a weed. It’s insane, and it’s just so medicinally powerful. It’s just… I love that one. But I know that’s a boring answer, so I’m trying to think of like a like a more obscure one that’s like cool.

I think, ashwagandha I think is quite cool. I think blue lotus is weird. I think the story of blue lotus is cool because this, like everyone’s into blue lotus now, and you can buy blue lotus like literally everywhere on the internet, and the funny thing is that none of it is real blue lotus.

Like it’s, none of it is true Nymphaea caerulea. It’s a different Nymphaea ce- It, that’s its own drama basically. But true ancient Egyptian blue lotus is pretty much extinct in its natural habitat, and is the m- hardest thing to find. I have it here, and it took me a while to find it. It was pre- And it’s expensive.

It’s very expensive. And the active compounds are like, Like its uses I don’t think have been totally explored fully, but the high is pretty shit from my understanding. It’s pretty dog shit. So that one’s cool. Yeah, there’s so many, man. There’s so many. I think mapacho is sick. They use mapacho in Colombia I’m sure, yeah?

Sam Believ: There’s the… it’s available in the jungle as well. They use, they actually, for shamanistic purposes, they also use a lot of normal tobacco. Just- Really? … just the rolled… Yeah The,

Metta Beshay: They use it’s like the stuff that you in- inhale

Sam Believ: No, you still not inhale it. It’s a s- like a cigar-looking tobacco.

And there is there is tobacco called Piel roja, which contains mapacho. That’s the one my, my shaman likes to use.

And it’s like a very strong cigarette. You don’t inhale it. But they use a mapacho mostly in rapé, like the… Have you tried rapé?

Metta Beshay: I’ve had, I, I had an achuar guy do a version of rapé.

No, not proper rapé, but I’ve had tobacco stuffed in my nose very-

Sam Believ: Yeah …

Metta Beshay: forcefully. Yeah.

Sam Believ: Some of it is basically pure mapacho, so it’s very strong.

Metta Beshay: Yeah, that’s what I had done. But I- Yeah. That was rough.

Sam Believ: Yeah, I like mapacho. It’s it has a nice sort of taste to it.

Metta Beshay: Really?

Sam Believ: In a way, yeah. The, at least the one that I’ve been given.

Metta Beshay: God, I hate mapacho. I love it ’cause it’s so fun botanically, but it’s just it’s so bad. It’s so strong. It’s… Oh, my God. I will say though that during a cere- I don’t like mapacho outside of a ceremony, but in a ceremony, inhaling tobacco smoke just feels so crude. But when you do t- mapacho in your mouth, it feels much cleaner.

So it’s a weird… they got secrets. They know the ways.

Sam Believ: So I’m a cigar smoker, so I on- I don’t ever inhale anything. Oh. So I smoke it as a cigar. So it’s it’s pretty good for that. But I know it’s not a plant, it’s a mushroom, but I know you also talked about the Super Mario mushroom, the amanita

Metta Beshay: muscaria.

Yeah, amanitas. Yeah. You

Sam Believ: like that?

Metta Beshay: No. I do not like amanita muscaria. I think it’s gorgeous. I think it’s a beautiful plant or a, a fungus, but- Ugh, I don’t like it. I don’t… That’s one of those plants that you really do either love it or hate it. ‘Cause the people that I get my Amanita from, who are very sweet people and that’s their whole life, they are obsessed with it.

They are like, “This is my life. It changed my life.” Most other people are like, “This is a terrible high. I don’t get it.” Yeah. Do you like it?

Sam Believ: No, I’ve never tried it. It’s interestingly, it’s it’s all over my culture. In Eastern Europe, like- Totally … a lot of fair- a lot of fairytales are about mushrooms and bears eating mushrooms, and it’s there’s a lot of mentions of it, so it’s obviously, it’s been used shamanically also and traditionally.

I’ve never tried it, but I would be open to try. I think it’s probably more than 1,000 years old, so I’m cool with that.

Metta Beshay: Yeah, you think you’re in the clear. What what… D- is there any… What part of, What, what country in Eastern Europe are you from?

Sam Believ: I’m from Latvia.

Metta Beshay: Lat- oh, sick. Awesome. Is there any traditional shamanism retained, or is it all Christianized?

Sam Believ: So an, an interesting fact for you is that Latvia, or this region before it was called Latvia, it was called Livonia. It was the last pagan country in Europe.

Metta Beshay: Oh, cool.

Sam Believ: The, they came and they beat the shit out of them to make them Christians. Yeah,

Metta Beshay: as they do.

Sam Believ: It- … Teutonic order, tho- those Germans with big helmets.

Metta Beshay: Yes.

Sam Believ: So the tradition remained, and they kinda mixed a lot of… for example, one of the s- main celebrations up to this day, it’s called Līgo. It’s on the summer solstice, so it’s still very shamanic, and a part of the tradition, you jump over the fire, and then you go to the forest to find a a flower of a fern, which does not exist technically, but

Metta Beshay: it’s like- Yeah, it doesn’t.

Yeah. Th- they’re not angiosperms, so yes …

Sam Believ: it’s kinda I think it’s kinda excuse to go to the forest to have sex. The- … I’ve been told that when I was already grown up. But it’s very paganistic tradition. Actually, they… sauna tradition that people think it’s just from Finland, it’s actually from this entire North Eastern Europe area, and a part of the tradition obviously is heat and cold, which is kinda like temazcal or Inipi, so it’s very earth connected.

But they also use different plants in there, like masculine plants, feminine plants. So in a way it’s very similar to Amazonian tradition, but just you don’t… You have different plants. So a lot of it- … still survived, and actually my first ever arguably psychedelic or out-of-body experience was in that sauna ritual- Where it’s like they put, they heat you up so much and then they pull you in the cold water, and then you float as they hold your shoulders.

Then you stop feeling your body, and eventually there’s like nothing left, and you’re kinda out of your body in a way. It was pretty cool.

Metta Beshay: That’s pretty sick. That might be an excuse to go to Latvia.

Sam Believ: You should check it out. I haven’t been to Latvia for more than eight years. I wouldn’t go now.

It’s too close to Russia. There’s can be war- That’s true … any moment.

Metta Beshay: That’s true.

Sam Believ: That’s true. Don’t recommend. Come to Colombia instead, even though people are afraid to come here now because of Venezuela, but it’s like they don’t get it’s so far away.

Metta Beshay: Yeah. I’m not… I think I’m going to Cuba next, so I think I’m going p- my, my, my tour is going Peru, then Cusco, Peru, and then I’m going Brazil, Cuba for cigars, and then I’m thinking I’m gonna go to Paraguay to study with the Guarani and their whole relationship with yerba mate and stevia- weirdly enough. So yeah, I… There’s… Latin America, if you’re into ethnobotany-

Sam Believ: Yeah …

Metta Beshay: kind of heaven. It’s kind of heaven.

Sam Believ: The we have we have plenty of plants, and people come. It’s like, “Oh, did you know this is psychedelic plant? Did you know this is psychedelic plant?” And it’s just ornamental plants, just pretty plants.

So they’re all over here. Everything that, like every second plant has some kind of psychedelic in it.

Metta Beshay: Do what, what other, So besides ayahuasca and rapé do… is there any other less common plants like yopo or, or-

Sam Believ: So yopo is very common in Colombia as well. The datura, they also use it in some traditions.

Metta Beshay: Okay.

There is- Do they call it towe or do they call it datura?

Sam Believ: They call it borrachero.

Metta Beshay: Oh, really?

Sam Believ: Yeah.

Metta Beshay: Interesting. That’s a weird word. Okay.

Sam Believ: A lot of things are, have different names, but they’re still same. It’s it’s, the devil trumpet, the, the beautiful flower.

Metta Beshay: Yep. Yep. Solanine. Yeah.

Sam Believ: And then there’s some areas they grow a lot of mushrooms.

Then Dennis McKenna, like when they went to Colombia to the jungle they were exploring this other plant that’s like very, like hidden tradition. I forgot its name, but it’s like a paste that you chew. Honestly there’s many. I don’t know much. I’m just focused on Ayahuasca.

Like Ayahuasca here is called Yagé actually. Colombian name for Ayahuasca is Yagé.

Metta Beshay: Yagé.

And

Sam Believ: it’s like my… Like I understand that you’re an explorer and a psychonaut, and you wanna learn about a lot of things.

My perspective is like you can drink Ayahuasca for the rest of your life, and you have so much information, like you can’t even figure this one plant out.

So I’m kinda trying to focus on one, and I kinda don’t like the retreats that like offer you Ayahuasca one day and then San Pedro, and then mushrooms, and then combo, and then-

Metta Beshay: Oh, I didn’t know that was a thing. They… Wait, they’ll offer them combo? Are you serious?

Sam Believ: Yeah. There’s places that it’s a s- like a buffet of psychedelics kinda, and I kinda don’t like that approach.

And my shaman, he also like, “That’s what we do. Rape if you want to outside of ceremony, but apart from that we just stick to Ayahuasca.”

Metta Beshay: Wow. God I might do combo and I- that’s when I’m not… I’ll do it for the video, but I’m like, “I don’t wanna do this.” That

Sam Believ: shit’s hard. Combo’s real good. I’ve done a lot of it.

It’s, I don’t know if you can see my combo.

Metta Beshay: Oh, shit. Oh, wow. He likes combo. That’s crazy.

Sam Believ: Yeah, I know. And most of those are repeated and I’m trying to make like a little beautiful tattoo with combo.

Metta Beshay: That’s pretty cool. I do it- Wait, so what was it like for you?

Sam Believ: I do it because I have allergies.

And if I do combo, my allergies go away, so it’s kinda like it… I don’t do it for any mental effects or spiritual effects. It’s just good for like physical health. It just doesn’t- Oh, so are

Metta Beshay: you… When you’re doing it, are you just doing one whole or are you doing like

Sam Believ: three? No. I do seven or eight sometimes.

It’s in-

Metta Beshay: Oh, so you feel it? You get high?

Sam Believ: You feel like you’re dying. You’re puking and like you’re dying, but only for 15 minutes. After that you feel amazing.

Metta Beshay: Oh, God.

Sam Believ: Yeah. I would never offer it to people at the retreat. Never say never, but I haven’t so far because I’m convinced that if you give it to 1,000 people- At least one will die.

Metta Beshay: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that’s my big

Sam Believ: concern too. So that’s why we’re good. Yeah. ‘Cause we’ve already given ayahuasca to about close to 3,000 people, so if I would h-have combo, it probably would’ve killed a couple, so

Metta Beshay: that would be more- Yeah. Que- question. I’m a, I’m about to I’m, like, kinda helping some older people, some very old people do ayahuasca, and I’m a little concerned ’cause they’re old as shit, and obviously I’ve seen old people do it before, but they’re not from this culture.

How do you deal with that? So I… What I’ve gotten to make sure that they’re safe is I’ve gotten their complete medication list of the medications they take, and then also any health concerns that they might have. Is there any red flags with old people that you’re like, “I don’t think you should do it,” or do, or is it usually fine?

Sam Believ: So we’ve had more than 10 people that are, like, 70 plus. Okay. And I think we had one person 80 plus, and they do great. They do fine. They just do more purging because their accumulation of stuff is just bigger.

Metta Beshay: Okay.

Sam Believ: If if they can run run a sprint or just they have a good car- cardiac output, they’ll be fine.

Metta Beshay: Okay.

Sam Believ: The problem is that old people generally just die. And if they die at an ayahuasca retreat, not because ayahuasca is bad, but just because it, it puts tension on your system-

…

Sam Believ: Then they’ll probably blame ayahuasca for it. But,

Metta Beshay: Naturally,

Sam Believ: yeah … ask them if they can do, like a, do a little run around the block.

If they’re fit enough to run around or just car- cardiantly s- fit, I think they’ll be fine. Okay. And just start with a smaller dose. You don’t give them double cup, you gotta… That’s what we do. My shaman is very careful, and he starts with small amount. And so th-they’ll be fine.

We’ve had plenty of old people. They have- Okay. Okay … good experience. The oldest shaman in Colombia that just died, he was 110 years old, still serving medicine.

Metta Beshay: Jeez.

Sam Believ: That’s great. So it’s definitely not bad for the age. Cool, Metta. So we’re coming close to an hour. I think it was a fun conversation.

It was. Time

Metta Beshay: flies.

Sam Believ: Yeah, man … tell people more about you and what’s your YouTube channel, and I highly recommend to check it out. It’s it’s a lot of fun.

Metta Beshay: It is Metta Beshay. M-E-T-T-A B-E-S-H-A-Y, Metta Beshay, and that’s pretty much everything. You can find me on Instagram. I post stupid stories there.

And it’s just YouTube is my main thing. So yeah.

Sam Believ: We’ll link to you Metta. Thank you so much for the episode.

Metta Beshay: Thank

Sam Believ: you. Guys, you’ve been listening to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, we do, the host Sam Beliv, and I’ll see you in the next episode. Sweet. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you’d like to support us and psychedelic renaissance at large, please follow us and leave us a wherever it is you’re listening.

Share this episode with someone who will benefit from this information. Nothing in this podcast is intended as medical advice, and it is for educational and entertainment purposes only. This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat. At LaWayra, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity.

LaWayra, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you.

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with , an Australian multi-instrumentalist, ceremonialist, and trauma-informed facilitator best known for his work in Spiritus Breathwork, somatic healing, and sound-based transformation. With over a decade of experience, Tim blends breath, movement, energy work, and music to guide deep healing and integration.

We touch upon topics of:

• Tim’s journey from elite Muay Thai fighter to healer after a life-altering injury (00:41–02:16)
• First Aya experiences, shamanic awakening, and long-term integration (02:16–03:46)
• Apprenticeship in the jungle and the origins of Spiritus Breathwork (04:16–06:41)
• Breathwork vs Aya: similarities, differences, and altered states (11:56–17:59)
• Trauma, nervous system regulation, and somatic healing (16:32–29:56)
• Dangers of spiritual bypassing and over-doing the work (30:05–34:01)
• Breathwork inside ceremony: grounding vs amplifying (34:15–38:47)
• Sound, music, and vibration as healing technologies (58:19–62:33)

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to http://www.lawayra.com

Find more about Tim Morrison on Instagram at @timmorrison__ or contact him at in**@**********on.com.

Transcript

Sam Believ: You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast.com.

Tim Morrison: The experience of the breathwork has changed something on a cellular level for them. I went into this huge what I’d call like a shamanic awakening where I had this Kundalini awakening, the dreams where I was like learning from spirits. I was hearing voices, seeing spirits, seeing energy.

When I started getting into this energy work, this is one of the things I was just like, man, what the . So part of this somatic work is helping somebody to build capacity within their system so they can feel more. This is a really big part of this, of the healing, is because when people don’t focus on the body or they’re not shifting what has been within the body, they just keep repeating the same thing over and over again.

And there’s no space to create something new for them because they’re so locked in these old ways of being. Everything you thought was real doesn’t feel real anymore, and your mind is completely open to like new concepts, new ideas. It’s easier to keep focusing on the past and not to become so aware of your unconscious thoughts and patterns in the present moment.

Through the quantum field, there’s like a, an immense amount of information, unlimited information, infinite possibilities and potential always existing in this space

Sam Believ: Hi, guys, and welcome to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, with your host, Stan Beliaev. And today, I’m having a conversation with Tim Morrison. Tim Morrison is an acclaimed Australian multi-instrumentalist, ceremonialist, and a trauma-informed facilitator, best known for his visionary– his vision behind Spiritus Breathwork and somatic healing.

With over 10 years of experience integrating various healing modalities, Tim has dedicated his life to guiding transformative journeys through breath, sound, and movement. This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat. At LaWayra, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity.

LaWayra, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you. Tim, welcome to the show.

Tim Morrison: Awesome. Thanks for having me, brother.

Sam Believ: Tim your story is really cool, like the way you went to this line of work through pain and recovery. So tell us that story and the role Ayahuasca played in it.

Tim Morrison: Yeah, man. So before I was in this– in this work, I was like in the health and fitness scene, and I was personal trainer, strength and conditioning coach, all that kind of stuff. And I was also fighting at quite a, an elite level in, in Muay Thai and I- Yeah, I was I had just hit like Australian champ.

So I’d won a couple of titles for state and Australian championship, and then everything was going really well. And then one day I just woke up with an excruciating amount of pain. And I was actually in Bangkok at the time getting ready for a fight. And the whole left side of my body was shaking.

It was just like trembling. And long story short, I got my way home, but I had three discs that had popped out of my neck, and one of them had hit my spinal cord and jammed a nerve. And this had happened just overnight really, but they thought maybe it was just like microtrauma. But the more I kinda went into it, like later through the years, it’s kinda like maybe it’s a bit of a big slap from the universe.

It’s like you’re not doing what you’re meant to be doing kinda thing. But ended up getting… needing surgery to to fix it. And the surgery healed my arm, but it gave me nerve pain through the rest of my body, through like my back and stuff like that. And I hit like a really… Like it ended my fighting career, and it hit a really dark place.

I had a huge identity crisis. I didn’t wanna be here anymore. I didn’t know who I was all that kinda stuff. And I got to the point where I was just like, I just can’t keep living like this, and I didn’t wanna go to talk therapy or anything like that. Ended up finding my way into the jungle to drink Ayahuasca.

And my first trip, I went away for two and a half months. My dad actually came with me for… I think it was the first five weeks we were together. And we spent about a month together in the jungle drinking Ayahuasca, which was incredible, and had a huge healing not specifically around my neck, but around, different things that, that were happening before me.

And I came home everything was all good for a while. I was like, felt really elated, really really connected to myself, all the things. And then I went into this huge, what I’d call like a shamanic awakening, where I had this Kundalini awakening. This, all this energy was rushing through my body, shooting up my spine.

I was in and out of altered states of consciousness like daily. And this was… This went for about, five, six months. I was having dreams inside of dreams where I was like learning from spirits. I was hearing voices, seeing spirits, seeing energy, all that kind of stuff, man. I was just completely like really blown wide open with it all.

And it was a also a really dark time, and like I thought I was going crazy. It was like really intense. And my mom is a, a really amazing healer, and she went through something similar around the same age. So she really helped guide me through that, that, that period. And if it wasn’t for her, man, I def- definitely probably would’ve ended up in a hospital or something like that.

But we, So it took me about 18 months to fully integrate this first trip to the jungle and everything that had kinda happened. And then the moment that I felt everything integrate, I was meditating down at the beach, and I felt this this energy, this voice say to me “Now it’s time to get back to the jungle.

And if you go back to the jungle, it’s time to diet. And if you diet, your apprenticeship will begin.” And I didn’t really kn- know what that meant, but I knew that, I just needed to trust that calling. So I found a, a, a center in the jungle that was doing quite traditional dietas like with isolation and stuff like that.

And I went there, and as I went there, they offered me an apprenticeship to work with kambo and hapé and things like that to learn with them and to learn some other plant medicine stuff. And so I ended up staying at this place for probably about six and a half weeks just straight in the jungle.

And it was like ayahuasca one day, kambo the next day, ayahuasca, kambo the next day. And then I went to my dieta where I went 10 days in isolation in a tambu doing my first isolation dieta which was with uchus sango. And as I came out of that, I Was sitting in like a closing ceremony for the dieta with Ayahuasca, and I asked Ayahuasca “How can I bring this medicine back to my community without them having to drink Ayahuasca?”

And she said, “Let me show you, my dear.” And she put me flat down on my back, and she said, “Breathe with me.” And we began this conscious connected breathwork pattern. And I didn’t really understand breathwork that deeply at that, that time, so this was still quite new. I’d had experience with like Wim Hof and stuff like that, but n- nothing like this.

And it just flooded me with an immense amount of information about the breath, about the energetics the quantum stuff, all the things just like enmeshed into this big download of information. And so when I came out, I was just like, “Whoa, this is incredible.” So I was still in the jungle, so I’d practice every day on myself just doing this kind of breathwork.

When I got home, I practiced on my on my girlfriend at the time who’s now my wife on my friends, on clients, and then it just grew, and I got into doing groups and things like that. And then during this, this period I started really wanting to piece together everything that I’d learnt.

So I started to study with different modalities and teachings and really trying to grasp everything together. And during this time of this big awakening for myself, I went into this deep surrender with spirit, and I just said, “Hey, if you teach me how to get through what I’m going through, then I will spread this message with the world.”

And then it was just like this snowball effect of meeting different people, different teachers different mentors, working with different elders and things like that, that just really kinda taught me so many different pieces of the puzzle that I was, like, bringing together for myself that I ended up…

that I’m now teaching with people. And so this this style of breathwork that, that I teach is called Spiritist breathwork, but it’s a style of conscious connected breathwork, but it’s it’s like trauma-informed. It’s energetic sensitive. It takes into account like the somatic level, the emotional level, the, the mental shamanic, energetic and the quantum level all brought in together to create this experience for people to help them heal, transform, evolve, and not just look at the things that they wanna heal in their lives, but what are they wanting to create as well.

To step into a new vision for themself as well. So yeah, that’s a sh- that’s a short kinda intro into how I got here.

Sam Believ: Thanks for sharing, and congratulations on not giving up and just drinking or killing yourself, and actually using that pain- … and transmuting it into something very positive and helping other people as well.

Your story is definitely… probably scares a lot of people in dr- to drink Ayahuasca because they think “Oh, I’m gonna drink and I’m gonna get this- … shamanic awakening.” And of course it sounds scary. I don’t think it’s that common, e- except for people that are on that path. But you describe your mother going through something similar.

So basically, you’re like you- you’re like in a lineage in a way. … But,

Tim Morrison: yeah …

Sam Believ: did at any moment, did you just think “Oh my God I’m going crazy”?

Tim Morrison: Yeah, man, there was definitely times during it when I was like, “Man, I’m… Like, I’ve lost my mind. I’m going crazy.”

Yeah. And there was lots of moments of destabilization not knowing who I was, and a lot of fragmentation as well. And a lot of the journey was, like, getting stable to, to bring it all together, to integrate it. But it’s one of these things too, man, like the more I lo- look into it of that feeling like I’ve gone crazy, it’s like these, it’s whenever the ego, the foundation gets really shaken up or like starts to pierce through and then a new truth starts to come through, everything you thought was real doesn’t feel real anymore, and your mind is completely open to new concepts, new ideas. And I think that’s part of it as well.

And this is something that, you can see with people in breathwork too, is when they have that really core, especially if they come from somewhere s- like an area that’s been really dogmatic or a life that’s been really dogmatic, like it’s one way of being and no other way every other way is evil kind of thing, and they get that foundation shaken up they can have that moment of being like, “Oh, what is actually real?”

But for me that’s such a beautiful place to be because that’s like we can really seed in a new intention of like what are you wanting to create for yourself? Who are you wanting to be? And not having to fall by the wayside of of the old self, of how you once were before.

Sam Believ: So it’s it’s really cool how you describe basically getting a download of this specific style of breathwork from Ayahuasca.

I have an, I have a similar story where in the jungle I was drinking the medicine, and it was showing me how to heal people with my hands, and I was like- … “That’s cool.” And then I was describing it like six months later to, to a guy, and he’s “That’s Reiki.” “That’s-” I’m like, “Really?”

He’s like, “You’re describing Reiki one-to-one.” I’m like that’s interesting.” So it’s like knowing that there’s this some kind of information cloud, collective unconscious, something like that, that you can access and get information. That’s why there’s like repeating patterns of similar things around the world.

I don’t know if you have any opinions about that or if you have since had some other downloads.

Tim Morrison: No, man, like a… That’s exactly what I see and what I’ve learned, man. So through like the quantum field, there’s like a, an immense amount of information, unlimited information, infinite possibilities and potential always existing in this, in this space.

And when you attune to that and when you open yourself up to receive that information, which can be done through like deep meditation, breathwork, or plant medicine you can receive that information and it im- at- and it embeds into you as well. And this is some- one of the things that happens with Ayahuasca is these different realities or realms that you can travel to or you can connect to and receive that information.

Sam Believ: Yeah. I’ve had some ceremonies recently with that similar content, a lot of connection to just that, quantum field or s- like I do Joe Dispenza meditations as well. And I really connected to like non-linearity of time and how- … how, man- manifesting works as well on like a deeper level.

So Ayahuasca is definitely like very fast way to access those states. So- … for people who have never really done breathwork describe how is it different, the, those no ordinary states that you can access through Ayahuasca or through breathwork. How are they different? How are they similar?

Tim Morrison: There’s a few similarities that’s happening, say like within the brain and things like that happen.

And there’s quite a bit that’s very different as well. And it really depends on how strong the, the medicine is that you drink, right? But you could be in it for six to eight hours of just in that experience of really intense visionary experiences of like seeing fractals or colors, or you might go into like different realities or realms.

With with breathwork we’re working… you’re… With Ayahuasca, you’re drinking something, but with breathwork, it’s all endogenous that you’re creating. And it’s like a fine line because there’s no actual- Getting

Sam Believ: high on your own supply.

Tim Morrison: Yeah. Yeah. There’s no scientific study showing that you release DMT during breathwork, but it doesn’t mean that isn’t what happens either.

But there are some like brain shifts and oscillations within the brainwave patterns that are creating those altered states of consciousness that we can see. And one is something called transient hypofrontality, which is the prefrontal cortex starts to deactivate or loses like blood activation to it, which allows more blood activation to come more into the limbic region of the brain, which kinda lights it up.

And there’s like neuro disinhibition, so there’s a lot of the, the brains that are active for like executive functioning, things like that start to, to shut down too, and it’s opening up these gates to these stored memories, like the implicit memories of the body which is opening up these stored pathways of emotions and things like that.

But when we’re breathing in this way, there’s als- also a change in the carbon dioxide and oxygen within the level within our levels. So our pH levels are shifting and changing, and we get something called like hypercapnia and and respiratory alkalosis. And this is when we experience that we also, we’re also shifting the brainwave patterns as well, and we’re experiencing like these altered states of consciousness.

So when we’re breathing in this way, we are having these like physiological responses to it, but there’s also like these energetic layers that are coming as well. And so when we’re breathing in a rhythmic way in a conscious, connected way and this breath that we’re doing is in and out. So some breathworks are like out, things like that.

Or it’s one, two, then out, one, two, and out. This is like a rhythmic, cyclic flow. It’s also creating coherence within the system within the brain and within the within the, the brainwave patterns where everything’s like aligning as well. And it’s also depends on how how scientific you want me to get, but there’s like these cr- the cranial sutures in the brain will start to open and close like very subtly as this cerebral blood flow starts to pump up through the body from this cyclic flow of the breath, right?

So cerebral blood, cerebrospinal fluid is always moving through that spinal column, but with the breath, it’s moving it more through. We invite a bit more movement through the body too through spiritus. And so when there’s this shift within the pelvic bowl, when it’s like tilting, there’s like a posterior anterior shift that’s happening, helps to pump up the cerebrospinal blood flow fluid up into the brain.

And this is going up into that third ventricle where there’s a pineal gland and there’s piezoelectric crystals on that pineal gland. When they compress, it sends out signals, and they have this like DMT-like effect that’s happening through there as well. So these are like these, these altered states that, that are happening.

But when we’re doing it we’re going into these like deep states and like you can see this like through like the Joe Dispenza stuff when you go into this state of nothingness, no one, no time, no space, all that kind of stuff. We can experience that same thing through breathwork. But for me, with, with breathwork, it’s- For me i- it’s seeing like what is the intention of somebody that they’re coming in for a breathwork.

Are they wanting to heal their trauma and regulate their nervous system, or they want to have more altered states experience? Because they need a safe body to come back to after they go into these altered states of consciousness. And if somebody is always chasing these altered states of consciousness and they come into breathwork just to keep chasing that, then we may be affirming their own dysregulation or their own default defensive pattern where they’re trying to escape what they’re feeling within their body.

And they’re not accessing that trueness of that space out there. But when we work with the body to heal the body, to let the tension move from the body, and then we go into these altered states, there’s a much deeper and expanded state that people experience of healing and transformation in that way as well.

And so when we’re in this way, like they’ll, they will see these brain shifts that happen and sensations and symptoms that are similar to a a psilocybin journey as well. And then when they’re in this state where and these brainwave patterns are all shifting, they’re also opening up to this state of that nothingness, of that no time, no space, and into these complete visionary experiences where you can…

it’s very common for people to experience people that have passed over or having f- visions of their future self or things of the past and coming out having this life-changing experience where, the f- the, the experience of the breathwork has changed something on a cellular level for them.

They can’t put their finger on it, but they’re no longer the same person as they were when they began the breathwork. And again, like breathwork is really powerful, but it’s not for everyone. So there’s, a, a bunch of contraindications that would, you rule somebody out from doing breathwork, and people need to be aware of that as well.

So there’s certain things that would, stop somebody from doing a really deep breathwork journey. But there’s so many pathways in, into healing, and there’s so many ways that people can go about it to to experience these altered states of consciousness not just plant medicine, not just breathwork, but there’s, many different ways to get into trance.

Sam Believ: Is there is there any way you could give us a short, little, tiny sample, like of for people that are listening, obviously if they don’t have the contraindications and if they’re not driving or standing on the edge of the cliff?

Tim Morrison: Yeah, s- yes. So like a full journey would be an hour or just over an hour.

So we could all just do 10 breaths, cyclic breaths right now, and they could have a sense of that. But to really get into that altered state of consciousness, you’d be needing to do it like for at least five or more minutes.

Sam Believ: Like a two-minute one. Can you guide us through just to give people a little glimpse just to get them interested?

Tim Morrison: Yeah, cool. Let’s do it.

Sam Believ: Yeah. I’ll do it as well.

Tim Morrison: All right. So this breath as we breathe is just breathing in through the mouth, out through the mouth, and you’re breathing in with a relaxed jaw. So you’re breathing in with the words like, like you’re saying ah as you breathe in, ah, and out with a ha.

Yeah. And the breath goes from the belly all the way up into the heart space. So breath comes to the belly first, haaa, up into the heart, and then relaxing out, haaa. Yeah. Breathing in from the belly, haaa. Heart, haaa. Out, haaa. Then make it cyclic. Make it rhythmic all the way up in, haaa, and out, haaa. Good, and keep that flow in, haaa, and out, haaa.

In, haaa, and out, haaa. Good. And keep that flow. In and out. In and out. And just closing down the eyes and breathing in and out, and breathing in and out. Breathing in and out. Breathing in and out. Breathing in and out. And stay on that flow. Breathing in and out. In and out. And as you’re breathing, just allowing yourself to open with each breath, expand with each breath, and deepen into the body with each breath.

Feeling your body soften as you expand. And just letting go of any tension or tightness within the body. Just allowing yourself to go within. Staying with that breath, breathing in and out. In and out. So go deeper. Allow to fully expand as deep as you can. Haaa, and out. Haaa. In- And out. In, and now go 10 more breaths.

So it’s 10. We stay with it. In, and out. Eight more. In, and out. In, and out.

In, and out. Last five. In, and out. In, and out. In,

and out. Last two. In, and out. One more. Breathing all the way in, and out.

Just come back into nasal breathing and breathing in through the nose

Exhaling out through the mouth

It might have started to feel… Just stay with that breath of breathing in through the nose of four, out of the mouth for eight, just to slow the system down. But you might have started to feel your body start to get tingly, you start to feel a bit lightheaded or a little bit dizzy or even elevated And it’s really easy to shift our state using our breath And so when we look at using the breath, we look at using the breath, one, as this therapeutic way of using as a form of healing, of of transformation, evolution, helping the nervous system discharge all of the, the stored survival stress which isn’t meant to be like these long breathwork sessions.

They’re meant to be done like daily. Like you can do them like daily for a week as like a, an intensive, but you wouldn’t wanna be doing them all the time. And then we’re looking at like corrective breathing through functional breathing, where we’re learning how to breathe in an optimal way that is there for vitality and things like that.

Sam Believ: It’s really nice. So I definitely felt different changed my state a little bit more relaxed now, more, more embodied. And it’s what you say, right? It’s like the this you can shift your state literally by just breathing for two minutes. And I think it’s something Wim Hof talks about.

It’s like if you you might be super anxious or depressed and you might do something that you regret, but like just remember that j- just two minutes away from you is always that different state that you can access. I think it’s really cool for people to know and and practice.

Yeah. For me when I was trying to meditate, I could never meditate. I was like, my mind was al- would always be… But then I tried doing like couple sets of those like 40 breaths and then holding your breath and then trying to meditate, and it’s like-

…

Sam Believ: You can do it. So what are your thoughts on that?

Tim Morrison: Yeah, it’s one of those ways to really quiet down the monkey mind really quickly. So for those, for people that do find it hard to meditate, you can do, 10, 20 breaths and then take a deep breath in, hold it, exhale all the way out and hold it. Do that a couple of times. Some people just need it once.

You might need to do it a couple times. But it starts to really quiet down that, that monkey mind, and you can drop into that space really easy. But the thing for me, man is figuring out why it’s hard for somebody to meditate from that point. So if we’re needing the breath to get into it then there’s a reason, there’s a reason why the mind isn’t able to focus, so we need to address that part as well.

Not to say that you can’t do the breath before the meditation, but why is the reason that you need need that? I- is it hard for you to focus? Is it hard for you to find that place of presence? ‘Cause these are all tools of bringing us back to ourselves, right? So if we’re not always using them as tools but more as crutches, then that becomes out of a…

becomes more of an issue, right? We’re starting to just reaffirm the same dysregulation or default mechanisms that we’re trying to break through from as well. But there’s, other ways of doing the breath too, man, of when you, like your focus is to go really deep into a breath into a meditation where say take Joe Dispenza meditations.

So at the start he would do what’s like a, He’ll do like heart coherence first, breathing with the heart coherence, and then he’ll go into drawing up energy from the base up into squeezing all the way up and shooting it up into the pineal gland, and exhaling it out, and then coming sometimes into into heart-brain coherence and then into a deep meditation.

And that’s if that’s the intention, then that’s like powerful for it. So for me, it’s always what’s the intention for it, right? If that is part of what the work is, then that’s what it is. But if we’re doing it because we can’t access it in any other ways, then maybe that’s– there’s a edge for us to work in that way as well.

But the breath is an amazing way to draw people really quickly into a meditation. And again, it’s it’s it’s changing brainwave patterns and it’s, shutting down. So for example, a lot of people could be like highly stressed, and they don’t know that they’re highly stressed.

They live in that life for so long that they believe it to be true. “This is just normal. I’m always like hypervigilant. I’m always looking around. I can never sit still. I’m always like hyper-focused,” things like this. So they’re like, “Oh, this is just normal for me. I’m always go.” And then they don’t actually realize that their brain is probably active acting from what we’d call survival brain, where it’s like this protective mechanism.

So we could look at the brain really basically through two primary functions. One is like this learning, thinking brain, which is all about being open, being connected. I can understand like compassionate. I can take in new information, and this is like what you’d call if you’re looking through polyvagal, like in that ventral vagal state.

Then we have the survival brain, which is when we’re very much in like a, in a protective mechanism and defensive mechanism, and most people are in that. And the survival brain will always trump this learning or thinking brain, right? It always trumps it because survival comes first for us. It’s a built-in mechanism.

So people can be living in the survival brain all the time, not realizing that they’re always operating from there. And then the simple act of breathing, say they want to do a meditation, they can’t meditate ’cause they’re just… Their body may be always trying to detect a threat, so then they don’t…

They’re not thinking it, but their body is picking up signals and cues from their environment that they can’t go inwards because they don’t feel safe within the body. And then the simple act of breathing or doing some form of breathwork, which helps to soften those defenses and helps them to regulate and come back into their center, now they’re open.

Now they’re able to connect. And this is one of the things that the, the heart brain, heart-brain coherence does or breathing in that way or doing a heart-brain coherent meditation is getting you into that state. Now I’m open to receive. And so this is what that breath can do, is to help shift us into that state.

Now we’re in this meditative state where I’m open You can’t drop into a meditative state if you’re in this survival or protective mechanism. The body would just grip on more. And this is one of the things that we look at when we’re doing breathwork through Spiritus is like pacing the breath and working with someone based on their individual needs or especially their capacity of what they can do, what they can handle, and not trying to force a release.

And so this is the thing that you can see with like catharsis and breathwork. Catharsis on one end can be very somewhat damaging or fragmenting for some people, but really healing for other people. And there’s a few things for this, like when it comes from force, when you’re trying to force somebody into it and their body’s not really prepared, then it can be that fragmentation, right?

It may look really cool on social media, but it’ll be really hard for them to integrate. Versus somebody being really open and softening, and then the catharsis comes from this discharge of immobilized or frozen energy that’s now moving through the system, and now it’s coming out in this big cathartic way.

That’s really healing for somebody because their energy is needing to move somewhere, and their body is ready, is open, and it’s not gripping on through that release. And so this

is like like what we look at with breathwork in that way.

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L-A-W-A-Y-R-A.com. I think it’s important with any tool not to use it as a crutch and not to rely on it as a form of bypassing and just… it’s applies with breathwork, Ayahuasca, anything you do. It’s like- … you do it and then you understand why you do it and what you do with it and not just keep going over and over again.

And you said, it’s not recommended to do every day. One, one of the things that with like very extensive br- breathwork sessions is like there’s a part of me that’s like, “Oh,” if you get Too much CO2 or is it like gonna hurt you or is there any like dangers or is there some, is there such thing as too much breathwork?

Tim Morrison: Yeah, if you’re looking at a, say, conscious connected breathwork, that’s at, on a chemical level one of the things that is happening is hypercapnia and and respiratory alkalosis. And generally when we go into some form of respiratory alkalosis, it’s signaling to the body that the pH levels are way off.

And then so it’s it’s like a signals of danger into the system. But because it’s done in like in a, I guess in a regulated way with breathwork in, for a short amount of time, the body just starts to to stabilize. So that’s one of the things is like, not to say that breathwork is dangerous if you like do it every single day.

I would say the danger would be is that you start to… Like your– you tax your nervous system more than what it’s able to handle and you’re going past you’re going past its capacity and now it’s going from like a stress, like a eustress that helps the nervous system to grow and expand to going into distress and then it’s going into like shutdown or collapse because it’s in the, in that way or perhaps it’s too much traumatic material that comes up and we can only process so much at once, right?

And this is where people go into healing crises is, and you probably see this with people that wanna like just keep pushing it with plant medicine, man, and that is opening up so many different pathways to and portals to what their body or their nervous system can actually integrate in any given moment.

When we look at-

Sam Believ: Yeah, it’s like, Sorry, carry

Tim Morrison: on. So I was gonna say, when we look at breathwork in a functional setting we could look at people that over-breathe, and this is detrimental to our h- our health, right? So people that are naturally over-breathers and they’re breathing in primarily through, through the mouth.

And the carbon monoxide and oxygen isn’t like the, the gas exchange isn’t where it should be. And so they’re over-breathing they’re– and they could be, like, really sensitive to carbon dioxide, so they getting much more sensitive to emotional load to stress levels.

And so what they’ve found as well is people that are, like, chronic over-breathers will have a lot of health issues. There can be shifts and changes to their facial structure and how their face has developed. There’s even been, like cases and studies wh- where they’ve changed somebody from open mouth breathing to nasal breathing, and their jawline has completely shifted from being, like, tucked into their face to being, like, nice and strong through the jawline.

But there’s this is one of the main things is that when we talk about breathwork, they wanna be, on a day-to-day basis, they wanna be breathing less than breathing more. And so the less that you breathe, especially when it’s functional and optimal, that’s where you wanna be for for health.

When we’re doing breathwork in a therapeutic session, we’re very much over-breathing purely to create the state of that altered state experience for the healing and transformation. So they’re two ends of the spectrum that, that you’re looking at, and that’s why you don’t wanna be doing these deep breathwork sessions every single day.

Say we don’t do a retreat or a training, they’ll be breathing every single day in that way. But then I’ll be, then I’ll be saying, “Hey, you don’t need to do breathwork for a good couple months. Just let this integrate with what you’ve been working through.” When we do our, our six month– We’ve got our six month training at the moment, and at the moment they’re doing breathwork every week, that these deep breathworks.

But then there’ll be a big integration period for them to let that kind of settle into their system.

Sam Believ: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. And what you describe with opening too many portals and people doing too many things at once it kinda, the analogy came to mind is shoving too much food into your mouth without chewing.

It’s like you’re just-

Tim Morrison: Yeah. Yeah …

Sam Believ: and then you can’t even swallow, and then you’re like, “That’s not a good place to be.” Yeah. What do you think about for you that breathwork, it came through the ceremony and you’re breathing in the ceremony. What do you think about breathwork in the ceremony?

Is there may be specific technique that can help someone connect with the medicine or if they’re connecting too deeply to bring it down a notch?

Tim Morrison: Yeah. Great question, man. Just a kinda side note, when– A really interesting thing was, We, and this is like a different medicine, right? But like Stanislav Grof who created who cr- created the holotropic breathwork, this is how he found out about this kind of breathwork was he was doing like his LSD-assisted psychotherapy and there was like an instance where like somebody began to like hyperventilate or breathe really fast as the LSD started to wear off and it brought the LSD experience back up.

And so he was like, “Oh wow, there’s something here within that.” That was like the birth of that where he started to realize like this connection between the breath, altered states, and these like psychedelic experiences. So but with Ayahuasca I think that’s definitely the thing. For me, one is learning to…

and it’s hard, man, because sometimes the medicine just wants to… There, there’s not much you can do once you’re in it. For me anyways, right? Or maybe the shaman can, sing an icaros to help bring the medicine down or maybe you need to do some breathing yourself, but sometimes you get so taken off sideways that it’s like hard to bring yourself back.

But one is learning how to down regulate your system and one would be using like a like a parasympathetic breath which is breathing in through the nose for four, long, slow, soft and silent out of the mouth for eight. Some people can’t exhale for eight which is fine, just do six seconds, but doing that is helping to shift out of a sympathetic state into a parasympathetic.

Some people need a slight pause between the inhale and the exhale and that will like, say if there’s a lot of energy in the system that can help to settle it down or to, to breathe it down. Or doing a box breathing breath which is breathing in for four, holding the breath for four, exhale for four, hold for four and you just repeat that through and that’s creating some stability, some some like coherence within the system as well.

And you can do that between four to six seconds. You can do it longer if you wanted to but it’s just, four to six seconds is that sweet spot to really create that balance point for you as well. For like increasing it if it’s coming off, I think, I don’t know, man, it’s two minds about it ’cause yeah, you could do some breathwork, some conscious connected breathwork to, to bring it in, and that’s like stuff that I was experimenting with when I was in the jungle of doing it.

But it was more of “Oh, cool, like how is this like connecting? If I breathe like this in this way, is this helping to bring up the medicine?” So it’s I- if it’s that and you’re exper- experimenting with that, then give it a, a try. But the other part is, if the medicine is coming down and you’re like, “No, I wanna be in it longer,” then that’s also something to look at.

Because this is again when we look at like trauma, one of the patterns that gets formed at a very young age from zero to 1.5 is this pattern called the leaving pattern, where they learn it’s safe to be outside of the body or to be disassociated than to be inside the body. But the gift of that is that these people c- that have experienced that pattern are able to connect to spirit very e- easily.

They can go into altered states very easily. But in breathwork or plant medicine, these people can keep chasing that because that’s where they feel safer, and they don’t feel safe in their body. And so in this instance, if the medicine is coming down and they go, “No, I wanna be back in there. I don’t wanna come back into my body.

I’m gonna breathe to get back in,” then that’s the part that you need to look at of being like, “Why don’t you wanna come home into your body? Why do you wanna stay in, in the medicine?” And this is something again that we address in breathwork because this happens for people in a breathwork session.

They will be really deep. They’ve gone really altered. They’re in like this big space where they feel like they’re back home in that spirit world, where they feel like an immense amount of love and connection and no other issues or problems around them. And then there, it’s time to come home back into their body, and they don’t wanna come back, and they will resist to come back into their body.

And that’s the pattern where you’re like, “All right, cool. So this is that leaving pattern playing out right now. And that’s what needs to be addressed.” So yeah, that’s my thoughts on that.

Sam Believ: You talk about, being out of the body, in the body. Obviously, I think in your practice there’s a lot of somatic focus, like bringing people back into their body.

Can you talk about this? What does it mean and-

Tim Morrison: Yeah, so-

Sam Believ: what is the practice like?

Tim Morrison: Cool. So for me, Ben, it’s all about building capacity, right? So having capacity to feel. So if we look at… So there’s a something called like a window of tolerance, right? And a window of tolerance is pretty much everything that we can tolerate in any given moment, and our nervous system will fluctuate.

So our sympathetic will go up and down, our parasympathetic will go up and down engage, disengage. Within this window of tolerance, we’re able to experience life we’re able to feel emotions or feel like a trigger without defaulting into an old default way of being. Outside of this window of tolerance, if we’re we’re in this hyperaroused state where we can get into panic, anxiety.

If we’re underneath then we go into hypoarousal where we get into… Sorry, where we get into shutdown, collapse, into freeze, depression, stuff like that. So- Part of this, this work is a lot of people have a really small window of tolerance. They can’t tolerate much within their body. As soon as they experience something like their nervous system isn’t resilient, there’s no flexibility.

It’s very short and very reactive. So if something small happens or they get a text or, there’s a, a, a huge population in the world right now that will find any reason to be triggered or offended by something, right? And so when we don’t have capacity, we don’t have understanding for other ways of being, other worldviews or how somebody else thinks, it’s always very much like self-centric.

This is how I am. So part of this somatic work is helping somebody to build capacity within their system so they can feel more, they can be present with more without defaulting into these old survival ways of thoughts or behaviors or coping mechanisms. And this is a really big part of this of the healing, is because when people don’t focus on the body or they’re not shifting what has been within the body, they just keep repeating the same thing over and over again.

And there’s no space to create something new for them because they’re so locked in these old ways of being. So this somatic work, when I’m talking about doing the breath and we’re breathing, we’re connecting to the body, part of that is to help them to stay– to, to be able to stay present with sensations as they arise within the system.

When we breathe in a conscious, connected way, our sensitivity to sensations increase. So we wanna be able to stay present with what is happening without disassociating, without trying to tense up or become rigid again. And this is where we need to bring in things like titration, where we’re slowly building up that amount of sensation in the system, or some pendulation where they’re moving between that tension or discomfort to a place that feels safe within the body and helping them to feel that within their body.

And this is allowing people to to be more of themselves, to, to, to be– to have more aliveness in their system. And so for me, it’s always about how do you know when the work is working for you? And so things that we do within a breathwork session needs to transfer into their waking life, into their actual life.

So if people are like ho- and this is something that I saw like early on when I was doing a lot of work in this like kind of neo-tantric field. It was very about emotional expression and catharsis, not a huge amount about containment. And the same people were coming back doing the same, repeating the same things, releasing exactly the same every single month.

And I was like, “Why are people– Why are they– Like, what’s not shifting for them? Let’s get curious about this.” Is this work actually working? They need to keep on doing the same thing. And this is when I started to learn about, cy- like trauma loops, like cycling emotions, all this kind of stuff.

And people can get stuck in this identity of this is how you heal, right? Rather than focusing on “I’ve done the work and now I’m here to live my life,” right? Now how do I wanna live my life? What do I wanna do? What do I wanna create? The relationship I wanna call in, where do I wanna live? What do I wanna experience on this earth?

We can get so focused on, “I need to do the work. What’s the next thing I need to heal?” Or, “This has come from my childhood,” or whatever the thing is. And that can hook us into the past continuously rather than focusing on the future. So this building the capacity, we’re able to stay present with who we are, with what we’re doing.

When something happens, ’cause life is always gonna happen, do we get triggered to a point where we disassociate or we shout or get into aggression or rage? Or are we able to stay present with what it is and address the situation and figure it out rather than, defaulting back? And for me, that’s a, a real big piece for people.

‘Cause a lot of people will wanna come and do– And this isn’t to say people who don’t have big breathwork sessions when they’re feeling in their body, they very much do. They’re still very altered, but it’s a very somatic experience for them. Sometimes they have a very somatic and very energetic and quantum experience at the same time as well, right?

Some people just have a very somatic and they don’t have this full energetic experience. So it’s different for each person, and this really depends on the pace of the breath, like the velocity of that breath and the amplitude of that breath, like the depth, the width, like how much breath is coming into the system.

It very much depends on that. It’s the same as drinking Ayahuasca, right? How streng- how, like how strong the the c- the, the medicine is, how much it’s been brewed, how thick it is, like the kind of vine that’s been used, like how old is the vine. It’s like all these different contributing factors of the strength of it.

The same with breathwork is like how the depth of the breath, the velocity of it, the amplitude, all the things shape how deep somebody’s journey is as well. For me, when I’ve been working with people and you can see the point where they start to disassociate from the sensations in their body, and they still have a really powerful experience in the altered state or say, like in the shamanic or energetic space.

But nothing has shifted for them in terms of how they feel sensation when they’re outside of a session. And so because these are so autonomic responses, it’s very built in. So these implicit memories are very much sensory based very procedural, things like that. It’s it’s hard for them to shift that, and then so they just keep repeating these same patterns outside of the space.

But when they’re able to address the body, that shifts also for them when they’re outside of the workshop or the breathwork space.

Sam Believ: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And people that keep coming back, like it also happens to us. It’s really good for business, right? Because they keep coming and spending money, but it’s not good for them personally sometimes.

Sometimes you need a lot to move through something, but eventually- Yeah … you need to ease off. But, And- … I think it’s about also this identity of seeker or identity that I’m- … I’m healing. But it’s like eventually you kinda just just have to make a decision that “Yeah I’m healed or at least healed for now or good enough.”

‘Cause if you’re a seeker, then you’re constantly seeking and where’s the end of the seeking?

Tim Morrison: 100%. And for me, what I say to people too is there’s always gonna be something. There’s… You’re always going to find something. If you’re looking for it, you’re gonna find it Do enough work to shift you out of where you were into who you’re becoming, right?

But don’t forget the real goal of it is that you’re human, that you’re here to experience life, and you experience the full range of the human emotional spectrum. But what do you wanna create for yourself? Do you wanna create a business? What do you wanna do? Because for a lot of people, creating a business shines a light on so many of your own insecurities, shadows, limitations, and that is the work in itself as well.

And so it’s shifting the focus on, “I need to heal the past,” to like, “What am I creating for the future? Who am I wanting to become?” And for a lot of people, that is– they become comfortable in the mud, but they become very resistant to the light, to this to the expanded self. And so that’s becomes the work.

It’s like, all right, you’ve done the work in the mud. Now come into the light. Now come into this expansion. Who are you choosing to become? And I think it’s easier to keep focusing on the past and not to become so aware of your unconscious thoughts and patterns in the present moment, and that’s where the real shift needs to happen, in these moments of unconscious reactions to present day stuff that’s happening.

And this is at the integration piece I feel a lot of people miss. And so they might come do plant medicine. They feel like, they come for a week, and they feel open, expanded. Same with breathwork. They feel completely different, and then they go home, and it’s the same thing or it’s the same relationship, and it’s reminding them of who they used to be, and then that in itself is pulling them back into that reality.

When really the work from that place, from that integration is when those triggers arise, consciously choosing not to go in that way or doing s- the somatic work to work through those default survival responses to create safety within the body. ‘Cause one of the things is if we still have this stored survival stress or we’re in a heightened state all the time, we’re still signaling to the body that we’re under a state of threat And then our state will also shift our thoughts too.

So then the way that our body is responding will shift how we think. But there’s never a time that our body doesn’t influence our mind, and there’s never a time that our mind doesn’t influence our body. So we need to work in tandem with them both together. But that integration piece, I think is so deeply missed in pretty much all areas of healing, is that they feel like the healing is in the moment of the retreat, of the medicine journey, of the breathwork, when really a lot of the healing comes in the integration of recognizing the triggers, breathing, becoming present, working with what is there, and choosing a new way, not defaulting back.

And it’s this this journey of overcoming the old self. And that can be the greatest fight for a lot of people, is overcoming the old self, ’cause it feels so familiar, it feels so known, that it takes a lot of work and dedication and devotion to shift out of that into who am I becoming? Who do I hang around with?

What kind of food do I eat? What do I drink? Where do I live? What is that vibration? What is this next level of me going to require of me? And can I do that? How do I do that? Let’s figure this out.

Sam Believ: Yeah. That definitely makes sense and yeah, like even understanding where it is you’re going, like what is that final destination?

So you manage- you mentioned energies and neo- neo-tantric approach. So what is the role of energy in all this? And how do you do it? ‘Cause I remember you, you saying that plants show you– showed you that, that level as well. So talk to us about that.

Tim Morrison: Yes. The way I see the energetic level, and this is like from s- stuff I was seeing, like with implant medicine.

So the other part I didn’t share, so a lot of this I was learning through Ayahuasca and then also when I was coming back to the jungle and went into the Andes as well, I was learning a lot through Wachuma as well. But also learning a lot about vibration and sound through, through mushrooms too. I learned a lot about sound through, through my mum she’s an incredible sound healer.

But like through plant medicine it was Ayahuasca the most. San Pedro was like locking in a lot of pieces, especially how to work with the body with sound with the breath, what to do. And the mushrooms were like like vibrational seeing like how sound works in this like this 12-day sphere of energy.

But I’ve also done a lot of study about the en- about energy, about energetic field, about, the quantum field and all that kind of stuff too. So it’s all like in together. But, so we all have an energetic field. We all have like a field, an information field, and we are like this blueprint of what this information field is is displaying, right?

So if there’s– if we have certain disease or injuries or illness is coming in through this, this field that’s moving in. So there needs to be some work that’s done around this energetic field to create, you know, newness around that energetic field so that we are creating a new state of wholeness or connection or love or health.

Then we have our, like our torus field, which is, like coming out through our body and it’s like a, a field that moves right around us and it’s like this cyclic cyclic field that’s moving through us as well. Then we have energy that’s also within the body so energy that’s moving from the spine from the base up into our crown.

So we have energy that’s moving up through there. And then we also have energy imprints or layers within our field, within our body. And so sometimes I’ll work on the energetic field outside of the body and sometimes the energy that I work with is extracting energy from somebody or there might be an energetic block that has– that is within somebody.

So for example, somebody might be breathing and the way I’m looking at their body breathing is through their head, through their chest their their rib cage, their stomach, their pelvis. How is that moving? Where is the energy stuck? Where isn’t there a, a flow of energy moving through?

And so for example, they might be breathing and there’s no– their base is moving their ribs are a little bit moving but their head isn’t moving so there’s some energetic block between like their heart space and their crown. And so I’ll feel in and then I’ll feel where the energetic block is and this energetic block can come from for example there might be somebody that has always closed down their throat, haven’t said what they wanted to say.

It might have just come from them bracing around emotional expression or whatever. And then I’ll find the energy within them and then I’ll extract it or just pull it out or twist it, pull it out and that will open it up and then their body will start to move in this way where there’s now an energetic flow moving through There’s also the– this energy that is like layering around the body, so you can use that energy with your hand to move it, to help move the body to create more flow and connection through the body as well.

So we’re looking within the body to see where there is connection, where is there disconnection, where do we need to breathe into or move into connect into to allow this body to, to to reconnect because the, the body is always wanting to rejuvenate, right? It’s like its natural state is to be in a state of healing, of love of connection.

So the body is wanting to get back into that, but we’re looking at how do we get the body back into that alignment. Like how– what is needed within that way as well. And so a lot of this body work, a lot of this like energy work had just– it just woke up within me. And when I went back to– So after it had woken up within me, I went back to the jungle and I worked with a different different teacher, and she got me to diet this, this plant called Sueracon Suerha.

And she was like, “This is gonna help you further your further your knowledge with healing with your hands.” And I had an incredible journey, like where I was seeing like the plant like move out of my hand and how to do kind of things with my hand as well. It was absolutely wild. But yeah, that’s what I’m looking at when I’m working with the energetic field as well.

And sometimes there’s also w- one of the things I’ve seen with people is either, And this has happened within breathwork sessions that haven’t been held by another facilitator and also people that have gone to plant medicine retreats that haven’t, They’ve been opened up but not worked with correctly.

They’ve had like entities attached to them in session, and this takes like another layer of of work to extract the entities that have attached to them. And then these entities that have attached to them are causing pain, they’re causing psychological issues. And then once they’re- they’ve gone, they’re no longer feeling that, that energy in their body, or they feel completely different within that as well.

And when I started getting into this energy work, this is one of the things where I was just like, “Man, what the fuck? This is wild, man.” And it was one of these ones where it’s happened so many times that it that it’s just true. Like it’s– it can’t be anything else other than what I’m experiencing as well.

So yeah, that’s how we, that’s how I kind of view, view the energy of it as well. And so we can, we can increase our own energetic amplitude as well. So some people have a really weak energetic field, and this is like why they, get, might get injured easier or they might get they might feel fatigued all the time.

Just have a really weak energetic amplitude or a really weak energy, energetic field. But we can build up that energetic field. We can put more energy into it, so then we actually become stronger energetically, and it’s less likely for, for things to enter into our field because we already have this like strong energetic field.

And one of the best ways for this is purely just through heart coherence, man is building up that heart coherent field that, that energetic field is… I would say like lately that’s pro- been like the, the best one I’ve seen or used to build up that energy field.

Sam Believ: Yeah. The, there’s all kinds of weird and interesting things when you go to those levels.

And I’ve seen some bizarre stuff as well, but it’s, that’s why it’s important to work with a shaman, with a plant medicine- … skilled shaman or in your case, skilled facilitator. Someone who knows, like if he’s opening up to something, they understand how to close you back. And if your soul leaves your body and goes somewhere, to like how to bring it back.

Yeah. So you you mentioned sound and you’re a musician, so there’ll be a last question. So what is what is the importance of sound? What is the importance of sound in Ayahuasca ceremony or a breathwork session?

Tim Morrison: The way we can look at sound is sound has its own vibration, it has its own intelligence. We can use sound as like healing, where it’s like where we’re using the vibrations to shift the state or the energetic field, or where there’s like incoherence or maybe some destabilized energy to say like with a singing bowl to bring that back into alignment.

And then we can see like sound journey, where we’re using sound as this way that’s going to create some brain entrainment that’s gonna help alter the state of consciousness that we can adj- we can align with that’s taking us on the journey and that, that sound is opening up parts of the body or the brain or the energetic field to open it up.

And then we can also combine the two together, and that’s really what within like Icaros, like when they’re singing the songs of the plants and we’re able to sing you into different states and to sing into your body and extract things and move things around and take you into those, those journeys.

And this is like this this experience of seeing h- especially like medicine work, you feel it the, the most is where you, y- you recognize that we’re neuroacoustic beings in terms of this sound is shifting us on a nervous system level where they might be singing and they’re like, there’s a bit of a bounce to it, a bit of like a like a, yeah, like a bounce to it and like your body is moving and tremoring to the sound that they’re singing through.

In breathwork is it’s similar, right? We, The way I was– Well, the way I use sound is to journey people and for healing in that way. So we use sound to, to activate people, to open people, to deepen them. You can use sound to really bring up the energy. So for example, like you’re…

i’m working in a group, we need a bit more kind of energy, I might bring the didge in, bit more faster pace, bring up the energy and drop them deeper in. The room erupts, a lot of you know, emotional release, needs a bit of calming. Let’s slow this down, might just play a little bit of guitar or maybe some soft nurturing singing to to slow it down, and it becomes like this journey with it as well.

So it’s what is the room, what are the people needing for that sound? And music is like this universal language for us all and there’s different rhythms that create different experiences, different frequencies that create different experiences. You could even use sound, in relation to the different chakra system if that’s how you want to do it as well.

But there’s so many different variations. But for me, like sound is is essential for a really powerful journey because it’s opening people up in that way too. When you’re doing, say, breathwork, And you’re just using Spotify, then you’re like needing to really understand the music that you’re doing, what are the words that are being sung or spoken in that song, and how is that impacting somebody as well and what’s the energy or the intention behind that song because that’s also what they’re receiving as well.

And you can see how that can also negatively impact somebody on the same way, right? And this is like where facilitation needs to be in a… It’s such a sacred act of service that, that we’re doing. And we’re using sound to, to deepen the experience, to calm them, to open them to expand them and to take them to where they need to go.

The sound can also create the empty space that’s required to drop them deeper into their experience so they feel engulfed by the sound, so then they’re within the frequency of the sound and they’re no longer in the space. Does that make sense? They’re like… the the sound is filling up the container for them and it’s also holding the space as well.

Sam Believ: Yeah. That makes sense to me ’cause I sing in a ceremony myself and there’s definitely not just singing. It’s like it’s a, it’s an act of energetic sort of like casting- … this protective net and trying to s- harmonize people through the singing. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I hope you come to LaWayra soon and I think you’re gonna love our ceremonial music.

It’s it’s very next level. Tim, thank you so much for this episode. I think it was very packed with information. I’ll definitely need to re-listen to it myself. Tell, tell the listeners more about where they can find you and more about your work.

Tim Morrison: Yeah. If you wanna find me, you can find me on Instagram on Tim Morrison, then two underscores.

If you wanna get in contact with me, you can send me an email to in**@**********on.com. Yeah, we send all of our events on Instagram, we put them on our website. We’re currently in Australia at the moment, but we’re due back into the States mid-April, May to probably June, and then we head over to Europe.

So we’re gonna be doing some events in America and Europe again next year. Currently right now we’re, we’re in a six-month online facilitator training, so the next one won’t be till next year. But we’ve got some in-person trainings that we’re gonna launch soon for next year as well.

So yeah, best is just to hit me up on Instagram or or email. But yeah.

Sam Believ: Thank you, Tim. Guys, you’ve been listening to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, we’re your hosts Sam Belyev, and I’ll see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you’d like to support us and psychedelic renaissance at large, please follow us and leave us a wherever it is you’re listening.

Share this episode with someone who will benefit from this information. Nothing in this podcast is intended as medical advice, and it is for educational and entertainment purposes only. This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat. At LaWayra, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity.

LaWayra, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with Wade Davis. Wade is a world-renowned ethnobotanist, anthropologist, and explorer; former National Geographic Explorer-in-Residence; and author of One River, The Serpent and the Rainbow, The Wayfinders, and Magdalena. Together, they explore Wade’s early journey into Colombia, Richard Evans Schultes, the roots of Yahé/ayahuasca knowledge, ayahuasca tourism, and Wade’s mission to liberate coca from the shadow of cocaine.

We touch upon topics of

• 00:01–00:52 Wade Davis intro and why this conversation matters

• 00:55–09:38 Wade’s first arrival in Colombia, “destiny,” and meeting Schultes (plus Schultes’ advice to try ayahuasca)

• 09:38–22:55 Did Schultes go deep with entheogens? Set & setting, pioneers, and the psychedelic era context

• 22:55–25:28 Yahé vs ayahuasca in Colombia: pharmacology, MAOIs, admixture plants, and early research

• 25:28–36:02 Why Peru became the ayahuasca “center” and how access shaped tourism (and why Colombia being overlooked helped)

• 36:02–41:10 Colombia, violence, and the “peace dividend” of a more intact Amazon

• 41:10–01:01:38 Coca: benefits, racism behind demonization, nutrition, WHO/UN policies, and why it matters for Colombia

• 01:01:38–01:14:23 Wade’s travels, National Geographic mission, and the McKenna brothers story (Dennis vs Terence)

• 01:14:23–01:27:16 Ayahuasca vs other entheogens: frequency, respect, terrifying vs ecstatic experiences, San Pedro comparisons

• 01:27:16–01:33:04 Sam’s “third S” (skill): preparation, dosage, integration, and how modern retreats can work well

• 01:33:04–01:36:31 Wade’s closing lesson: “Take your side and get on with it”

• 01:36:31–01:37:59 Where to start with Wade’s books + invitation to visit LaWayra

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to http://www.lawayra.com

Find more about Wade Davis at http://www.daviswade.com

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with a group of MMA fighters, veterans, and researchers from the Athletes Journey Home Foundation. The episode features Ian McCall, Mark “The Shark” Irwin, Luke Jensen, and several fighters including Matthew Martin, Clinton Foche, Faith, Jared, and Fernando Marrero, sharing their stories of trauma, traumatic brain injuries, addiction, military service, and how ayahuasca may support healing and recovery.

We touch upon topics of

• 00:01–04:20 Vision of fighters drinking ayahuasca and creation of the MMA retreat
• 04:20–08:30 Ian McCall, Athletes Journey Home, and the purpose of the retreat
• 08:30–14:50 Mark Irwin’s psychedelic journey and fighting career
• 14:50–20:30 Ian’s experience with ayahuasca, ibogaine, and fighter healing
• 20:30–27:40 Group dynamics of fighters in ceremony and shared vulnerability
• 27:40–34:30 Luke Jensen’s neuroscience research and QEEG findings
• 34:30–44:10 Matthew Martin’s addiction, trauma, and ayahuasca experience
• 44:10–52:30 Clinton Foche’s traumatic brain injury and cognitive improvements
• 52:30–01:04:00 Faith’s military PTSD, feminine energy, and ayahuasca healing
• 01:04:00–01:14:20 Jared’s veteran journey, relationships, and inner transformation
• 01:14:20–01:27:30 Fernando Marrero’s life story, fighting career, and TBI recovery

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to http://www.lawayra.com

Find more about Athletes Journey Home at athletesjourneyhome.org and follow Ian McCall on social media.

Transcript

Sam Believ: You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast.com

Ayahuasca, LaWayra mis pasos Hi guys, and welcome to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, with you the host, Sam Belyav. And today I have a very unique episode for you. So as opposed to our normal format where we have an interview with one person, this will be a collection of eight interviews pulled together.

Those are the interviews of the fighters that joined our Ayahuasca retreat for MMA fighters, as well as organizers and our scientific team. But first, let me tell you a story behind this event. So few years ago, I was drinking ayahuasca and I randomly saw a vision of Khabib Nurmagomedov and Conor McGregor coming to LaWayra and drinking ayahuasca, which for those who know the world of MMA a little bit is a very comedic vision.

They are both champions of UFC and they fought together and there was this bitter rivalry between them, and I thought for some reason in this ceremony that there is no better way for them to make peace. It was a very spontaneous kind of vision because I don’t really watch UFC that much. I’m not… I don’t really follow those kinds of things.

So it just came to me out of the blue. But as things happen sometime with ayahuasca, the meaning was not literal and now I can understand what that vision meant. Few months after that vision, I have stumbled upon Ian McCall. Ian is an ex-MMA champion and after finishing his career, he dedicated his life to bringing fighters and athletes to plant medicines to heal from trauma and also from traumatic brain injuries.

Few months after that vision, I stumbled upon him and I ended up interviewing him for the podcast. Then synchronistically, I stumbled upon him at MAPS conference where we had a booth, and he also had a booth only a few rows in front of us. There, once again, we spoke about this idea of making a retreat for MMA fighters only.

And after about eight months of planning and organizing, we finally pulled it off. And last week the event happened and now it’s over. At this event we had 12 MMA fighters, UFC fighters, bare-knuckle boxing fighters, boxers, wrestlers, jujitsu fighters. This group had a huge amount of world titles, Pan Am titles, national championship titles.

So a group of very talented and experienced fighters, all with traumatic brain injury and trauma. On top of that, we had two scientific teams, Onnit Sciences with whom Ian fully does his research, as well as Neuro Enlightenment, which is the team led by Luke Jensen who for last six months or so has been doing- QEG brain mapping and studies on effects of Ayahuasca on people’s brains here at LaWayra.

On top of that, we had Martha Busby, a world-renowned journalist in the psychedelic space who was writing an article about this event for Men’s Health, and Sam Lipman Stern, with whom we are working on a documentary about Ayahuasca, so we were documenting that as well. So it was a very action-packed retreat.

And honestly, there were lots of surprises. The first thing I remember thinking when we were organizing it is if you’re gonna get those 12 trained killers into the same space, there will be violence and aggression. On the contrary, it was one of the most open, most vulnerable retreats we’ve ever had.

Instead of having those huge egos and throwing their titles around or fighting each other, the fighters were all one cohesive group with a lot of support. Never in my life did I expect to see such strong men cry and be vulnerable, and I’ve seen a lot of vulnerability in this space, but this really surprised me, and the cohesion of the group was very special and unique.

A lot of people expect UFC fighters or MMA fighters to be rich and famous because that’s what they see when they’re on the peak of their career. But the reality is 99% of them have a moment of fame, and then they get discarded by society. They are the modern-day gladiators, where they sacrifice their health to entertain people for a shiny, bright second, and then they get cast into the shadows of being forgotten by the society.

With them, they take physical trauma, mental trauma- PTSD, and most importantly, traumatic brain injury, which leads to even more mental health issues down the line, addictions. A lot of them end up poor, broken, and living on the streets. So I’m very excited about the science that we have accumulated at this retreat to prove that Ayahuasca can be very helpful for those issues.

In this podcast, I’ll also have an interview with Luke Jensen to talk about the observations so far. So yes, guys, this is a very unusual episode packed with emotions, interesting stories. I hope you enjoy it. If you do, please let me know in comments to see if I should make episodes like this in the future.

This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat. At LaWayra, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity. LaWayra, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you. Enjoy the podcast. Hello, guys.

MMA fighters: Hey, how you doing, Sam?

Sam Believ: Who are you guys?

MMA fighters: My name is Mark “The Shark” Irwin. And I am Ian McCall.

Sam Believ: And how did you find yourself here in the Colombian Andean mountains in the cloud forest?

MMA fighters: We run the Athlete’s Journey Home Foundation. We are a non-profit scientific research group that was founded by Ian, who’s our CEO, and we provide psychedelic therapy to combat sports athletes who have suffered traumatic brain injuries over the course of their athletic careers, and we have a scientific team named Onnia Science that does data collection pre- and post-treatment, so that we can measure the effectiveness of these therapies and prove their medicinal and therapeutic benefits.

Sam Believ: Cool. And then who are you personally as a person?

MMA fighters: Why don’t you next? I am a former bare-knuckle boxing world champion and a three-time Hall of Fame Award winner, and I am now the COO of Athlete’s Journey Home. I’m Ian McCall. I’m a former mixed martial arts world champion and UFC superstar founder and CEO of Athlete’s Journey Home.

And I’ve been a pioneer within the psychedelic space for about a decade now, doing research and I guess all things psychedelic.

Sam Believ: Cool. So obviously we’re here to give ayahuasca to about, what? 12 fighters- … and then measure their brains before and after, work on both their mental health and also traumatic brain injuries.

This is g- just gonna be a short one because I have both of you on the podcast, and we have a full one-hour episode. So guys, check it out. It’s probably about, Mark, maybe 15 episodes back, and Ian maybe 50 or 60 episodes back. Wow. It’s been a while ago. But yeah y- just in short, y- your own journey with traumatic brain injury and psychedelics.

MMA fighters: I was a prodigy in fighting. I started martial arts at four years old, so I’ve been getting punched ever since, and I also had a traumatic brain injury in high school snowboarding where I was in the hospital for a couple days. I had a, a accidental drug overdose where I was on the operating table for 24 hours.

They told my brother I wasn’t gonna make it. So a, a lot of brain damage. Probably about I’d say five times that I was kinda knocked out in training. Maybe not really severe. I’ve never been put out cold, but the amount of concussions I’ve had is definitely in the hundreds. Yeah, I have a lot of brain damage, or I should say I had a lot of brain damage, and through this work I’ve been able to reverse course and not get something like an early onset dementia diagnoses, and then no more depression or anxiety or addictions.

All the things that plague people with TBI those are now gone.

Sam Believ: I think now not only you are not d- don’t have dementia, you seem to be pretty, pretty in a good shape. Yeah. And the way you speak and obviously not only helping yourself, but also the fighters. What about you, Mark?

MMA fighters: So I started boxing in my early 20s in USA Boxing’s amateur program.

I won a couple of state championships in California, and over the result of my amateur boxing career, I had countless concussions in my fights and in the training room. I had read that psilocybin mushrooms were good for traumatic brain injury recovery, so I started microdosing, which is actually what gave me the inspiration to turn professional.

I fought all of my professional fights under the influence of magic mushrooms. I started taking microdoses in my professional boxing fights in Tijuana. When I started competing in bare-knuckle boxing, I started taking much larger doses. I had the Knockout of the Year award in 2022 on five grams of mushrooms.

I had the, I won the world title on seven and a half grams of mushrooms in 2023. Ian was on my co- in my corner on five grams, and I had the Fight of the Year award winner on seven grams of mushrooms in 2023 as well. I was able to use psychedelics to achieve great thring- things in sport. However, I also incurred a lot of traumatic brain injuries along the way, and that’s what prompted me to get more involved with the research that Ian’s doing.

I used my last world title fight to advocate for the nonprofit and raise the money that we needed for our first research project, where we took eight athletes to Portland, Oregon, where we all underwent psilocybin therapy to help heal our traumatic brain injuries. And we have put on several retreats since then, and we have several more planned for this year, which I’m really excited about.

Sam Believ: Mark it was your first time with Ayahuasca, right?

MMA fighters: Correct.

Sam Believ: How is it so far? How are you feeling, and would you fight on Ayahuasca?

MMA fighters: I definitely would not fight on Ayahuasca. I think that would be very counterintuitive. But I must say that the medicine has been truly beautiful, as has this entire experience been as well.

It has completely reset my entire central nervous system. It’s helped me find a profound sense of love, sympathy, and empathy for myself, my brothers here at the retreat, and- hu-humankind as a whole. I would say that it has significantly altered who I am as a person to my very core, and I really can’t say enough positive things about this medicine, about the LaWayra Retreat Center, and I can’t thank you enough for everything that you’ve done for myself and Athletes Journey Home.

Sam Believ: My pleasure, Mark. What about you, Ian, huh? Obviously that’s not a first time for you. How is Colombia and Ayahuasca treating you, and how is your process going?

MMA fighters: Colombian Ayahuasca is enlightening. On a whole different level. I’m used to Shipibo shamanism or American, Native American shamanism, and maybe even some, some Central and Eastern, like European shamanism.

The, the music in it is magical. The band you have set up here is so good. It is joy- Child

Sam Believ: labor.

MMA fighters: And also you yourself, Sam, are an, an incredible artist. I can’t speak highly enough about that. The team you have here is beautiful inside and out. Everyone is so well put together, keeping us in check.

Having a bunch of strong savage fighters running around and talking too much and touching each other like everyone was like, “Hey, no, no more. Stop.” “Get your shit together,” it was very… That’s what we need. We need to be bossed around a little bit- … and to be kept in check because w- we will get out of control a little bit i- in a playful manner.

The medicine itself was extremely purging. You always purge on Ayahuasca, at least I do, but the amount of purging that happened and release that I found through that, the medicine maybe wasn’t as outer body experience-wise, but I think maybe I’ve done that enough already in my- my psychedelic, journey and career is whatever you wanna call it. But for here it was extremely introspective, and it was very… I was very pliable, and I was ba- able to work within the space very easily. Instead of just being blasted off, it was like, okay, these are the steps I go through to, to accomplish what I’m looking to achieve through this, and it was really beautiful.

Sam Believ: Thank you, and thank you for mentioning the music. And when I said childhood labor, what I meant is a joke because Fernando recently started to bring his kids into the ceremony, and one of them plays guitar beautifully. He only started- Really … recently

MMA fighters: I think a year ago

Sam Believ: or something.

MMA fighters: They- That’s wild …

Sam Believ: they’re all very talented. And his even younger kid what, he’s 12, 11 years old?

MMA fighters: At, at most.

Sam Believ: He plays the drums, but it’s, they’re enjoying it. It’s not labor.

MMA fighters: That was a big part of it, to see the family unit. Not just the boy band you guys have set up, of like multiple people playing.

To see the f- the family of men, of young men to father playing together and you can tell cracking a joke and sharing a drink it added an element of love to Ayahuasca that you don’t see from other shamanistic cultures. It’s just that’s void. Sure, you feel love through the spirit, but to see that on stage in front of us was it was just, it was really special.

Sam Believ: Yeah. My kids are also here. They’re too young now, but I’m hoping Adrian will be In, on the maracas sometimes,

MMA fighters: You have such good looking children, by the way. They’re so sweet and so pretty.

Thank you. Very nice. They

Sam Believ: have good looking parents,

MMA fighters: that’s why.

Sam Believ: Question to both of you how do you, how are you liking this dynamic of 12, savages, as you say, drinking Ayahuasca, sharing vulnerably? I’m personally enjoying it a lot, so I don’t know if you have, wanna share about this.

MMA fighters: This is my dream. This is how I create an army of people to push this message of healing, and it’s, obviously not just Ayahuasca. There’s mushrooms and ibogaine and all the other things, but specifically here, the way Ayahuasca has an… has… gives us the opportunity to bond like this is unlike other medicines.

Truly. And to have a group… we’ve got a handful of black belts here really dangerous folks- world champions … that are here. World champions, multiple. That just shows you the level of curiosity and the level of power this has and draw that it has to people- … that I’ve dreamt of for years now.

I’ve been… I brought this to the UFC, or at least mushrooms to the UFC in 2019. And then I was on HBO in 2020, and then brought another study to the UFC in 2021 or 2022 with the University of Miami. And it all fell through. It all didn’t happen, but at least I got the attention of people.

But now I have the army I’m looking for, and, this is patient one. I’m patient zero. This is patient one, Yeah, I think this is really the vision that we had all along, right? Is to bring fighters together and to help them heal, because we as a community are very severely afflicted by the work that we do, and there really is no, treatment course for us.

There’s nobody helping us. Nobody’s doing anything to help us recover from the injuries that we incur while on the job, right? We lay our lives on the line every time we step in there, and we significantly shorten our lives every time we step in there for, obviously for blood money, but also for the love and the adoration of the crowd, and to entertain the fans.

But when it’s all said and done and the lights go off, we’re left alone in the dark, and it’s a scary place to be. And so to be able to provide these type of medicines and to be able to help people… ian and I have seen firsthand, in real time, medical miracles, things that some of the best doctors in the world said was physically impossible.

We’ve been able to reverse symptoms of Parkinson’s, CTE, depression, suicidal ideation, and a host of other ailments through these treatments in only a few ceremonies, and we have several more planned for this year. So this is only gonna continue to grow and build, and we couldn’t be more excited, because the future is bright.

Sam Believ: So Ian the Parkinson’s patient, I think it’s a really cool story, and obviously he did Iboga treatment. And you said, Iboga healed your body or your head, and then the Ayahuasca healed your soul. Can you talk to us about that?

MMA fighters: Yeah. Ibogaine… I work at Beyond in Cancun, Mexico and- I felt it’s like smoothing out my brain.

It’s very grounding. It, that it’s not yeah, you’re shot into space, sort of trip. It’s a- Literally … literally, but it’s… you’re disassociated from it like ketamine- … because it hits the NMDA receptors, and it pulls you back a bit where you can view this from an out-of-body sort of thing, but not in a bubble.

Ayahuasca has you in this crazy bubble of the trip, where you’re just in it. Where ibogaine, you’re not, and it, you, it sits you down like a grandfather and it teaches you this is how you psychologically dog walk your problems and yourself through these situations.

And it was able to heal my brain. It was able to heal my addiction te- my addictive tendencies. My… I’ve had addiction my whole life, and, That’s crazy … but comparative to ayahuasca it didn’t do much for my soul. Emotionally, when I do ibogaine, there’s no emotion to it at all.

I just get to watch. I get to view it and go, “Okay.” It makes it… It’s a pretty simple trip. It’s long and arduous. I don’t… The body high, I’m starting to kinda get used to, but with ayahuasca, you, you have this more physical, emotional sensations and you you b- feel them on a level that is that is outside of any psychedelic.

Mushrooms touches on it a bit, and maybe not as intense as this. But the fighter spirit, the, the warrior spirit is very much healed and brought to peace. Or, a lot of ancient cultures, especially in the Amazon, when they would go, have, have tribal conflict, they weren’t allowed to come back into the tribal space until they sat with a shaman and healed, and that really resonates with me.

I think that post-career, the amount of people that are lining up for this is big, so we can bring these people home. We can let them heal that spirit, that soul, those emotions, and and find a new path in life, because that’s a big thing after you’re done what’s next?

What’s my purpose? So ayahuasca definitely gives you that.

Sam Believ: It’s beautiful, and it’s beautiful how we have different medicines and different traditions, and we can take the best from all of them and kinda create a protocol that can help a lot of people. And I know you guys do microdosing, hyperbaric chamber, and also supplementation.

All of it works and comes together. And we had a couple conversations. You like LaWayra and the format, and it seems to be very suitable for this audience as well. So what are you what are your thoughts on that?

MMA fighters: Taking people deep into the Peruvian jungles is just a lot to ask, and it’s scary.

A lot of people are very turned off by it. “Why would I wanna do that?” When you mention Colombia, you mention Medellín, it’s a very attractive place to a lot of people, for a lot of different reasons, obviously. But it’s just more accessible. And it’s … you always say it’s like ayahuasca for beginners, but I’m not a beginner, and it taught me amazing things.

I loved the process. And it’s it’s a little more playful, even though, we’re not allowed to talk, but there’s a fire. There’s just more elements to it. Th- being able to go sit by the stage and the kinda having a few different places to go, ’cause, with, with, let’s say like a Shipibo shaman, you’re stuck on your mat, and you don’t move.

There’s no interaction, besides someone blowing, agua de flora on you. There’s really nothing, so I think that this is, … It’s more palatable for a lot more people. What do you think? No. Yeah. I think what you’ve done here is really wonderful. The center is very beautiful and healing on so many levels, not just because of the medicine, but because of the entire experience.

It’s a very holistic approach that you guys here that includes not just the ayahuasca, but there’s yoga, there’s healthy food, right? We’re doing activities every single day as a group. We’re doing word circles, where we’re able to sit down and discuss- We have a gym … We have a gym that we’re in right now.

We’re in the gym right now. So there’s- It’s unheard of. You don’t do that when you’re somewhere else, Joe. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s a very healthy approach all around, physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, nutritionally, right? You guys really cover all, all aspects of it and check all the boxes, and it’s made it just one of the best weeks of my life, sincerely.

Sam Believ: Thank you so much. I’m glad you enjoyed it. I li- I like this project a lot. I, as, as I told Ian and you guys before, it all came from a weird psychedelic vision that I had randomly. I don’t watch UFC. I don’t know why. I just, in a ceremony, I was like Conor McGregor and Khabib Nurmagomedov should drink Ayahuasca so they can make peace.”

It’s obvious, right? Yeah. And then I met you randomly, and then I interviewed you, met again Maps, and now we’re all here. I know it’s not the last one. So both fighters and everyone with a brain injury, athletes, I think, So y- it’s like we obviously, we have people here that drink Ayahuasca 20, 20 times, 100 times.

We have people who drink Ayahuasca 15, 20 years. They all still love it. But I am trying to create an experience that is accessible for the first-timers, just so it’s less things that are scary. And I think for for athletes and specialists you wanna stay in shape, so you need a gym.

You wanna eat good food. You can’t just go full dieta for a month and lose your shape. It’s just not doable. So I think I think it’s a good match, and I’m really looking forward to bring more fighters. And I enjoyed myself. I wrestled today and hurt my back a little bit.

And you did a good job. We arm wrestled and, So it’s very cool. I like it.

MMA fighters: Yeah. Your entire staff works out with us.

Sam Believ: Yeah.

MMA fighters: Everyone comes and, we get a bunch of savages in here, and they’re pushing weight around. They’re ki- everyone does jujitsu. Everyone’s hitting the bag.

It’s like it… This is the exact sort of place that we need. O- outside of having mats and a bag space this is amazing. This is this is exactly what you want. Because, like you said, when you go through a strict diet and your body starts to deplete, as high-performing athletes we are so regimented through the process.

And it’s… and we have more than just fighters now. We’ve got, the gymnasts and we’ve got dancers, and we’ve got race car drivers and surfers and, and- Bobsled champions … bobsley- bobsled Olympic champions. From all over the planet, and these people don’t wanna degrade just to go do a ceremony.

They wanna build themselves healthier and bigger and faster and stronger through this medicine.

Sam Believ: Even my shaman works out, and I taught him arm wrestling. I beat him, though. He’s spir- he’s spiritually stronger, but physically I still got it. Cool. It was a hella fun experience. We’re looking forward for t- tomorrow’s day ceremony.

We’re not in the end yet. And yeah. Thank you guys for coming here, trusting us. Lots of fun. Thank you very much. Hi.

MMA fighters: Hello.

Sam Believ: What’s

MMA fighters: your name? My name’s Luke Jensen.

Sam Believ: Luke, tell us and… about yourself in 30 seconds.

MMA fighters: Marine Corps veteran. Tried Ayahuasca 10 years ago, and now I’m doing neuroscience research at LaWayra.

Sam Believ: Okay, so you’ve been a part of the, the last retreat that we’ve done for the MMA fighters, and obviously you were one of the scientific teams. Tell us about it. First of all, you drank all four ceremonies as well. Let’s talk about your own experience. How was it for you?

MMA fighters: It was really fun to drop in.

Maybe fun’s not the right word. I really enjoyed dropping in with such serious people. There is actually fun with Ayahuasca, and there’s seriousness as well, and all of them were really committed to their healing, which I was a little surprised about. Maybe unjustly, ’cause you think of fighters, you think of lots of egos, but they’re all very serious people, and just being in that community was very powerful.

I enjoyed the group dynamic immensely, and I think that they’re all gonna do a lot of good in the world, and wanna promote the plant medicines, because they had such powerful experiences.

Sam Believ: What about your own personal experience?

MMA fighters: The first night wasn’t very visionary for me, but it was very insightful.

It was very energetically cleansing, and after that first night … I don’t, I didn’t go to sleep at all that first night. I took a full cup, and it really affected me. I was kinda surprised. And-

Yeah, I really came into … Sometimes it’s not even mental. Sometimes it just feels different. Energetically, I felt lighter, and I felt my nervous system much, much more calm. I haven’t felt in a while, which I really greatly appreciated, ’cause it’s sometimes tough for me. And I think that shows you how Ayahuasca can help with PTSD, because it can directly calm down the nervous system.

And the next three ceremonies, since my first ceremony took so long, I took smaller cups. But each of them was very energetically cleansing more than anything. One ceremony, I think the last one, I was by the fire the whole time, just staring into a sacred fire, which was very powerful. I really enjoyed that, and just was one with the universe.

Sam Believ: So you reviewed the brain scans of the … Sorry, not brain scans, QEG brain maps of the fighters before and after. What have you found so far? What are the results after one week? Just tell us what are your observations?

MMA fighters: Our observations are that Ayahuasca’s really profoundly helps the brain, or regulates the brain is the term that we use, within a very short time.

So how we look at the brain is we look at the energy signature of the brain, the brainwaves. And by studying this, we can see where the brain’s, what we call, dysregulated, and it can be dysregulated in many different ways. Sometimes it’s a brain that moves too fast and it’s too busy, always thinking, never resting.

Sometimes the brain’s worn out, power levels are low. But what it seems what people are dealing with, it seems to help. Additionally- Ayahuasca seems to profoundly help head trauma in certain cases. We had one fighter with a lot of head trauma, high inflammatory pattern, and that was reduced significantly after just a week of ayahuasca, which is really a amazing finding.

Sam Believ: So obviously, and apart from the MMA retreat how many brain maps have you accumulated already just being here at LaWayra for the last, what, six months?

MMA fighters: No, I think LaWayra, we’ve dramatically increased our database of pre and post-ayahuasca QEEG brain maps, and I think probably around 250, maybe 300 brain maps.

I’d have to count them to see, but …

Sam Believ: Any preliminary findings? Any conclusions you can …

MMA fighters: that’s a good question. I really wanna go through the data and analyze it, and probably have to go through my mentor and maybe use some of his data systems. But we’re finding … A lot of things we’ve found that we’ve found before, now it’s getting confirmed, and I think the finding is that trauma stores itself in the brain.

So just like emotional trauma, the famous book, The Body Keeps the Score, the brain keeps the score, so trauma’s held in the brain. Ayahuasca helps release it. So I really think this is gonna change how we understand healing, and ayahuasca is gonna give us a whole new insight possibly into recovery from emotional trauma and PTSD and, maybe physical trauma like head trauma as well.

So it’s a very interesting time, I think.

Sam Believ: Thank you, Luke. Yeah. I’m looking forward for that science to come out. I’m glad to be part of it.

MMA fighters: Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for having me here. So my name is Matthew Martin. I’m from England, and I’m here on an Ayahuasca retreat. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

So I’m a professional bare-knuckle fighter. I come from the north of England. I’m over here at the moment with Athletes Journey Home doing an Ayahuasca retreat, hoping to heal some brain injury and traumatic experiences from childhood.

Sam Believ: Nice. You showed me some photos and there’s a video of you where…

and you can see your teeth being knocked out. Like, how did you get, how did you get into that kind of stuff?

MMA fighters: So I’m an ex-heroin and crack addict. I’ve been sober for three years today. I don’t drink, and I needed something to pour my energy into. So for years I’ve been fighting. For years I’ve been going through different stuff.

When I got off drugs, I needed something to focus my energy into, and fighting seemed like a good way to get into that. I tried glove boxing, didn’t excite me as much as the bare knuckle did, so I got into bare knuckle, and that’s where I’ve really found I’ve got a passion for.

Sam Believ: Yeah. Obviously you had pretty traumatic childhood that brought you into addiction.

I don’t know if you wanna tell us a little bit about that.

MMA fighters: Yeah. So when I was a child, I was sexually abused by a family friend for a few years. This resulted in me becoming a heroin addict from the age as a 12 year old till I was about 26, 27. So I’ve spent more of my life on heroin and crack than I have off it.

And when I got sober, I decided I needed to do some healing, and that’s why we’re on this retreat now to try and bring my brain back to what it was and progress on the spiritual journey that I’m on.

Sam Believ: Obviously you got quite far already, even before Ayahuasca, right? So how has it been so far?

You’ve been in for four days now. You’ve done three ceremonies. Talk to us about your experience. So

MMA fighters: for me, it’s been the most spiritually enlightening experience I’ve ever had in my life. Obviously we’re here with a really good group of people as well, so it’s made it easy to feel like part of the community, settle in quite nicely, and we’ve all got stuff in common.

So I suppose that for me was a nice little bit of an ease into it. The first ceremony absolutely blew me away, like in terms of it was more than what I expected. It was everything that I needed and honestly can’t thank the retreat enough for like being able to go through that process. So my first Ayahuasca experience was I had two cups.

And recently my missus missus and me have had a miscarriage. I got to meet my child and speak to him, and he told me that he was safe in heaven, it just wasn’t his time to be on earth, and to let his mum know that he was all right. And I got to speak to God, and he told me what my purpose was in life that he’s seen me pain, he’s seen how much I’ve been crying over my life, all the trials and tribulations I’ve been through, and he assured me that the war was over.

So for me, I think that was quite a grounding experience. Mind-blowing, and for some parts of it, very mind-bending, and I didn’t think I was gonna get through it, but a truly phenomenal, magical experience for me.

Sam Believ: That’s very beautiful. Thank you for sharing. And some people that are addicted, like AA programs for example, they kinda see everything as a drug and some of them will be like, “Yeah you shouldn’t do Ayahuasca because it’s it’s a drug,” and stuff like that.

What would you like tell those kinds of people?

MMA fighters: So this is… this exact conversation I had with someone before I come away. They were like you’ve been sober for so long, Matthew. Are you sure you wanna go and do this?” I said if I seen it as a drug, then I wouldn’t. But I don’t. I see it as a medicine.”

Like this medicine’s been around thousands of years and people are happy to stick paracetamol, codeine, ibuprofen in their body and they’re all manmade. This is natural, from the earth, God-given. And for me, people… If people have been using it for thousands of years and using it as a medicine, then why not still continue like that?

If it’s got the healing and it’s got the foundations of what it actually has, then we should be pushing this out there and telling people this is gonna save lives, it’s gonna heal brains, it’s gonna heal trauma. It gives people a really good foundation to be able to build upon. And you can go away and learn a lot about yourself, and I think if people see this as a drug, they’re very confused about what it actually is.

Sam Believ: Yeah. So yeah, I totally agree with that. It’s been a medicine for thousands of years. It’s only been called a drug for a couple decades. So obviously you’re going back home and two days after you arrive you have a fight. Yeah. Some people are really, afraid “Oh, I’m gonna drink Ayahuasca and it’s- I’m just gonna be so peaceful, I won’t be able to fight.”

On, on the other hand there is traditions where they would engage with Ayahuasca and then go to war. So how do you feel? Do you reckon you still got it?

MMA fighters: So I’m a big overthinker, and sometimes when I’m fighting, I can think about throwing a shot, and before I’ve thought about it I’ve took two or three shots to the face.

What I’ve learned with my experience with Ayahuasca at the moment is it’s slowed my brain down enough to be able to triangulate my thoughts- … which has given me a sense of peace in my head. So I’m hoping that transitions over to the boxing. I maybe don’t overthink as much then, and I can just get stuck in and- and really really just go into a flow state.

Sam Believ: Being in the moment-

MMA fighters: Yeah … both, both in life and in a fight … living in the present moment and- Yeah … and not overthinking what I’m about to do and just doing it.

Sam Believ: Nice. And I know you don’t only just fight and you work on yourself, you’re also, you speak and you go to podcasts and you talk to people in prison.

So what’s your message, if any? So

MMA fighters: my message is if anyone’s thinking about healing, to come on a retreat like this. And really sometimes you’ve gotta step out your comfort zone. Life and growth comes from uncomfort. So a lot of people, as human beings, we live in our comfort zones and we’re scared to try new things because we worry, and I think to step out your comfort zone really initiates growth, and an experience like this can really help move people forward.

So I think some people live in the past and they get these ideas and ideologies about things because we hear it in the news. We hear bad things. But really all it is propaganda. And I think if you are truly serious about healing yourself, come and experience something like this. Come and experience Mother Nature’s medicine.

Because what can be more surreal than that, man? Yeah. It’s from Mother Nature to heal you and to heal us, and I think everyone who has those sort of brain injuries or post-traumatic stress disorder and things like that, like this, this is a really healing process, and I’m feeling myself even after three ceremonies better than I’ve ever felt in my life.

So I’d recommend this massively to anyone. I also think for people on a spiritual level as well, man, like if you’re wanting to connect more, more on a spiritual level towards God or towards whatever you believe in, this is a great experience to be able to do that and look past yourself and be able to look from a different perspective and get the message.

Get spiritual message, man.

Sam Believ: Yeah. Start from healing and then get spiritually inspired as well. Just before we wrap up I’m g- I wanna zoom in on your ear.

MMA fighters: Yeah.

Sam Believ: I’ve never seen this before in my life. For those watching on video, he only has a little piece of your- his earlobe left. What happened there?

MMA fighters: So I got in a street fight a few years ago with one of my mates, and he grabbed my head, screamed that he loved me, and then bit my earlobe off, man, and spat it in my face.

Sam Believ: Yeah.

MMA fighters: And now I’m earlobe-less.

Sam Believ: He lo- he loved you so much that he wanted a piece of it.

MMA fighters: Yeah, he wanted a piece of me forever.

Sam Believ: I think I think they call it cute aggression, when you like something so much you squeeze it.

So that’s taken to extreme. I think

MMA fighters: that could be it, yeah.

Sam Believ: Matthew thank you for sharing. Thank you for trusting us with your experience. I think it’s all really cool, and I love your message. And let’s hope it spreads and we get less violence and more love.

MMA fighters: Yeah, definitely. And can I thank you as well for having us on this retreat, mate?

It’s been honestly the most phenomenal experience of my life. I’d recommend it to anyone, and I think anyone thinking about it, just bite the bullet and do it, man. What’s your name? Clinton Faucher. Clinton, how did you find yourself here? Crazy story. Crazy story. I had a traumatic brain injury from a car wreck about five years ago.

I probably have had concussions before but never diagnosed. I’ve been rocked or whatever. And I started going down this path of waking up and not knowing where I was. I call it my brain glitching out, where I would forget conversations and stuff like that. And I ended up coming to Mark after I got a scan done that showed that I had a traumatic brain injury, and I was desperate.

And I met him, I’ll never forget, at a restaurant at Huntington Beach. And as soon as he sat down, I broke down and started crying and asked him for help. And I started microdosing and it started helping, but we felt like I needed something different. And I was in a desperate mindset, to be h- honest, of whatever I could get or whatever I needed to try to get some sort of normalcy back in my life, I was willing to do.

And so they told me about this trip, and it’s been game-changing for me. So tell us

Sam Believ: before the microdosing, before psychedelics, before all the other stuff that you did what were the symptoms you were experiencing of that really bad traumatic brain injury?

MMA fighters: I… One time, I’ll just give you for instances, one time I was driving my daughter to school that was 15 minutes away, and she said, “Dad, I, I don’t think this is the way to my school.”

And I was 45 minutes up the f- the five freeway. I literally had no concept of what was going on. My brain would glitch out and I wouldn’t know what was going on. I started missing meetings with work. It affected my business. I had to hire a personal assistant that basically ran the business. I was just the face and the personality.

I was waking up and didn’t know where I was. N- not just confused, but had no idea. I had to set my alarms to say, “Hey, you’re at home and you’re okay.” I had to put sticky notes around my house just so that I could remember throughout the day of what was going on. I missed meetings for my kids’ school.

I literally was in a pure chaos state of mind

Sam Believ: It reminds me of this mo- movie Memento where, I don’t remember, but he had to have notes to remember who he was. Yeah. When, Or 50 First Dates. Have you seen

MMA fighters: that movie? Yes. So that was exactly- Yeah … that was exactly… And when, the other day when I was kinda confused, when Mark woke me up, and that’s when I told him when back in the day, I was waking up like that every day, where I was confused.

I didn’t know what was going on.

Sam Believ: How are the improvements so far? What are you observing with your condition?

MMA fighters: I feel and I’m a straight shooter, so I’m gonna say how it really is. I can tell the difference between my cognitive, and it’s only been three, four days. But I can tell that it’s similar to, like, where a battery if you take the post on a battery, and you put it up against it, it’ll kinda spark, but it won’t fire off.

And I feel like with Ayahuasca, the, the psychedelics, the microdosing was helping, but I feel like Ayahuasca gave it that energy boost of actually firing off and my brain being more calibrated, being able to know what’s going on around me, and being able to cognitively remember things better.

Sam Believ: Yeah. Knowing what you went through, and obviously Ayahuasca’s not a walk in the park, would you recommend it to other people in your jujitsu gym or fighters?

MMA fighters: I, 100%. I think one of the things is, like with anything, there’s these preconceptions, and there’s these assumptions. When I first did the research, I was like, “What the hell am I getting into?”

But being here, I can’t speak for other places, but I can speak for LaWayra. The staff- You, everybody that’s here made it so comfortable to come in that the Ayahuasca side of it, everybody keeps saying that it’s hard, and for me, it’s not that it’s been hard because I have trust in you guys, in knowing that you’re gonna guide me to helping me be able to heal.

And that for me is the ultimate goal. So I would, not just people in my jujitsu gym, but anybody who has had a brain injury, anybody who is

going through unprocessed, got PTSD besides the TBI, so they say I’m a unicorn in that sense.

Sam Believ: Yeah.

MMA fighters: Anybody that would ha- that has PTSD unprocessed traumas, or a TBI, I would highly suggest they come.

Sam Believ: Thank you, and thank you for trusting us, with your process. How do you feel being in this group of fighters and everyone like being vulnerable and open?

How does it feel for you? The, is it comfortable, the environment?

MMA fighters: I think you guys, again, not to reiterate, but I think you guys made it so comfortable, and I think this group of guys I think we’ve all seen so many dark days, and we’ve always had to be fighters in the sense of fighting and in life that I think all of our souls were just tired.

And I felt like that we all were in a common ground of, there was no ego. You’ve got multiple world champions. You’ve got multiple Pan Am champions in multiple different martial arts. You haven’t heard one time anybody talk about them being a world champion. You haven’t heard anybody talk about how great they are.

It’s all been people that say, “Hey, I have problems and I need help.” Yeah. And that for me has made this group so loving and caring, and made it even more easier to go along with the tough things that you have to face.

Sam Believ: Thank you, Clinton. Thank you for sharing and yeah, hope I’ll see you again. I know you’re loving Medellín, so I guess we’ll see you more often.

MMA fighters: You would definitely see me more often. Next time we’re getting you on the jujitsu mat.

Sam Believ: Yeah. Let’s do that. I wr- I wrestled today in the grass. It was

MMA fighters: fun. Now my back hurts. Yeah, like I need some proper training. Yeah.

Sam Believ: Take it easy. Cheers, Clinton.

MMA fighters: Thank you, brother.

Sam Believ: This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat.

Most of LaWayra if you’ve been listening to this podcast for a while. Some of you might have already been to LaWayra before. For those who don’t know us yet, we started LaWayra four years ago. At LaWayra we combine authenticity, accessibility, and affordability. LaWayra is currently highest rated Ayahuasca retreat in South America with more than 700 five-star reviews and an average rating of five stars.

If you come to LaWayra, you’ll experience powerful, authentic ceremonies led by our indigenous shaman, Fernando, in a very beautiful venue just one hour south of Medellín, Colombia. We’re surrounded by nature and have comforts like hot water, Wi-Fi. At LaWayra, our team has guided more than 2,500 people through this life-changing transformation of Ayahuasca experience.

At the same time, we keep it very affordable, so whether you’re coming for healing, clarity, or a deeper connection to yourself, LaWayra is the best choice. If it is your first time drinking Ayahuasca, you will love our three and a half hour preparation course and integration support. All of that is included in price as well as pickup from Medellín, accommodation, and Ayahuasca.

Visit lawayra.com to book your retreat or learn more. LaWayra, connect, heal, grow. L-A-W-A-Y-R-A.com. Hi, what’s your name?

MMA fighters: Faith.

Sam Believ: So you’ve been here for now for three ceremonies, right?

And you’re part of our MMA fighter retreat.

MMA fighters: Yes.

Sam Believ: When I first saw you I would never tell you’re a fighter.

MMA fighters: Yeah, I get that a lot.

Sam Believ: You’re, You have a sleeper build.

MMA fighters: A sleeper build?

Sam Believ: Yeah.

MMA fighters: What’s that? Like-

Sam Believ: It’s like people on internet they, they’re like super fit, but unless they’re flexed-

MMA fighters: Oh …

Sam Believ: then also you can’t see it. Yeah. Yeah. So you don’t look like a… You don’t look like you’re… your face is not super beat up and stuff like that,

MMA fighters: yeah.

Sam Believ: But you have a really cool story and you’ve been fighting for a long time. You’ve been knocked out. So- … first tell us about what got you into fighting.

MMA fighters: First got me into fighting is, so I used to be a bodybuilder, and then I walked into a UFC gym one day and took a kickboxing class, and it just started from there, and it helped me get a lot of energy out from trauma.

Sam Believ: And trauma, mostly PTSD from military, or do you think there was something before?

MMA fighters: I would say y- childhood trauma f- first, and then military trauma. I was a firefighter, so I w- I started off being a volunteer firefighter with my military unit. We would be the firefighters out in town in Maryland.

In that region it was only volunteer firefighters-

…

MMA fighters: Running all the fires, and so you see a lot of death, and car accidents, and fires like that. And then I went on deployment. We had a plane crash, and we lost some people, some aircraft fires, and then I got out and became a wildland firefighter, so it’s just a lot of cumulative trauma,

Sam Believ: and obviously, like this retreat, we have all male fi- fighters, and you’re the only woman fighter, right?

MMA fighters: Yes.

Sam Believ: And firefighting and military- … those are not traditionally w- what women do, so it’s w- what do you think what’s pulling you towards those kinds of risky, dangerous environments?

MMA fighters: I think it’s a combination. I do think I do have a lot of masculine energy- … but lately I’ve been getting into my feminine energy and balancing it. I think it’s very beautiful. Both are beautiful.

But also, childhood is in my family, masculine was more important.

Nobody really cared about the feminine. So I wanted, as the oldest daughter of six, I wanted to prove t- that I was worthy, and so from there, I just kept doing the most shocking things that I could think of to- … gain their approval, and so it’s not like- A good reason to do things.

But I’ve built up skills as a fighter, and now I enjoy it, and now I can’t just stop,

but I’ve been able to uncover a lot of that and realize why I started doing those certain things.

Sam Believ: And by their approval, who do you mean? Your parents?

MMA fighters: Yeah. My parents, yeah.

Sam Believ: Your mom or your dad more?

More who of them two?

MMA fighters: More so my dad, but honestly, yeah, my mom. She has a lot of internalized self-hatred of her feminine, I can tell, so it’s honestly both.

Sam Believ: That’s very interesting. I had, During the ceremony yesterday, which we shouldn’t have, but I did have a very low voice conversation with Ian.

It was… The energy was such.

And then he was talking about training with Mike Tyson. I was like, “It’d be lovely to bring Mike Tyson to LaWayra because then my dad would be proud of this.”

MMA fighters: Oh.

Sam Believ: He’s he doesn’t understand really what I do and how impressive it is.

MMA fighters: Yeah. He just

Sam Believ: doesn’t get it.

But if I could get this guy, ’cause, like-

…

Sam Believ: We only had two posters in my home ever. And one of them was of Mike Tyson.

MMA fighters: Oh, wow.

Sam Believ: And the other one was of Evander Holyfield. Yeah. He’s a big fan of boxing, yeah. But yeah, it’s like no matter how I… We barely talk and, we have a better relationship now and I worked a lot of it with the medicine.

But it’s like still there is this part of me which is “Oh, it would be nice to impress my dad.”

MMA fighters: Yeah.

Sam Believ: So it’s real interesting. That’s why I thought there this way. But obviously Ayahuasca is a feminine spirit. How has it been in your journey with connecting more to your feminine?

MMA fighters: Yeah. It’s helped a lot. I’ve had past ceremonies that have helped me work through that. I’ve had a ceremony where I connected with all my femininity, and after that I started wearing pink, and you’re not feminine because you wear pink, but my family, everybody made fun of anything feminine.

So I wouldn’t touch that color, just little things like that. And then I feel like it’s still a journey that I’m on of walking in confidence as a woman- … and not having to act like a man, to gain the approval.

Sam Believ: Yeah. It’s very interesting how we can get conditioned.

And it happens a lot, like, ’cause obviously we’ve… All, all men and women, we all have masculine and feminine. And it happens a lot with guys “Don’t cry,”

MMA fighters: yeah.

Sam Believ: And then for me, it took a long time drinking Ayahuasca, like, opening my… Feeling my emotions and crying again. So it’s and it happens with with the women as well, it’s where they’ve been s- get pushed in a- Sort of roles that maybe are not optimal or not balanced. So you you had PTSD from military, from firefighting. And then you got into Ayahuasca. How has your process been with, first, tell us about your PTSD, what symptoms did you have, and then h- how you encountered the Ayahuasca, and how your journey progressed, and whether you felt relief or not.

MMA fighters: Okay. Yeah. So the PTSD started off– And I didn’t understand I had PTSD at the time ’cause I was very young. I was, like, maybe 20 years old when it first started as a volunteer firefighter.

I would go into grocery stores, and the bright lights would give me panic attacks. I would almost pass out. If someone gets too close to me, I would tense up, and I would wanna fight them. I’d get so angry, and I’d think that they wanna hurt me, and this would happen, and I even went to the hospital one time ’cause I thought I was having a heart attack.

I didn’t know what a panic attack was. Nobody told me about it, and so that’s how it started, and then I, started having to go to therapy, and it didn’t really help. Talk therapy didn’t really do anything for me. So yeah.

Sam Believ: How did you find Ayahuasca?

MMA fighters: Okay. Yes. I found Ayahuasca…

I saw a few documentaries on YouTube just, I can’t even remember the names. They’re so old. And it kinda piqued my interest, but I was still in the military, and I actually got medically retired for PTSD in 2021. And I genuinely wanted to get better, and so I went to an Ayahuasca retreat in 2021, and I keep coming back.

And I find that my symptoms are lowered and a lot more, more manageable. They still exist, but I’m able to live a better life now and still work through those things.

Sam Believ: So you gave up on talk therapy entirely, or you-

MMA fighters: No. I went back into it because I did hit another depressive episode a couple of years ago.

And it It helped me stay in line. But I would say the Ayahuasca helped me actually get to the root of the problems.

Sam Believ: How did you end up in Luke’s documentary? So I interviewed Luke maybe 20 episodes before this. He’s the person doing brain mapping here at LaWayra, founder of the Neuro Enlightenment.

And I think the doc- his documentary now won best documentary on psychedelics of last year by some- yeah. Was it a synchronicity or like how? Tell us that story.

MMA fighters: Yeah, I would say it’s a synchronicity because I had a fight. I actually… Yes, this was the fight that I was in camp with Mark the Shark.

He was training for his bare knuckle world title, and I was training for a kickboxing fight in Kentucky, so I was gonna travel for the fight. Traveled. I got knocked out. That’s the whole story. It was actually a pretty bad deal.

And I decided to travel to Peru to see some friends and sit in Ayahuasca with them and see if it could help.

And then in doing so I asked if there’s any training around ’cause we’re in Urubamba of Peru. It’s like it’s… there’s not a lot to do, as far as modern-day stuff, but I did find a jujitsu group. Luke was a part of it. We got to talking. We connected on the fighting and being, both being veterans.

And then he invited to me to his retreat just a few weeks later, and then they brain mapped me. They could see where I got knocked out. It showed up in the brain map, and then we worked through that. We did a lot of brain exercises, Ayahuasca, Wachuma, and then we mapped after, and you could see the difference of the inflammation gone.

So I think I mi- I might have been his first case study for brain injury.

Sam Believ: That’s really cool ’cause obviously this time we have a group of 10 or 12 people, right? All

MMA fighters: with brain injury. Yeah.

Sam Believ: So obviously getting knocked out is a pretty obvious case of traumatic brain injury.

Like, how do, how does it feel getting knocked out, recovering, then what was the difference you noticed after working with the Ayahuasca?

MMA fighters: I definitely noticed more clarity and calmness ’cause I feel like, I was also going through other personal hard things at that time. It was just a big accumulation of a lot of emotions. The knockout was just one piece, and so I just felt so scattered and lost and going through a dark night of the soul.

And I couldn’t focus on things because of, ’cause of my brain. So yeah, after the whole process, I definitely felt more clear and calm and then able to move forward and do the work in real life.

Sam Believ: How do you feel being here in a extra masculine group, but all of them drinking medicine, obviously being v- very vulnerable and sharing and crying?

How does it make you feel? Or maybe your opinion of men, is it being influenced by that or no?

MMA fighters: A little. We have a good group of people, and I think very good men are here, and they care, and they’ve sh- they’ve shown a lot- me a lot of empathy and have helped me through things, so I really appreciate that.

Sometimes I do feel forgotten, dogs are going crazy, but but that’s what I’ve been dealing with my whole life- Yeah … and being in male spaces and, it’s not a male-only sport, but it is m- dominated by males.

Sam Believ: Yeah.

MMA fighters: Yeah.

Sam Believ: Yeah.

MMA fighters: It’s a little hard sometimes.

Sam Believ: That’s just how it is.

It’s like, Yeah. Society chose her w- for some reason, one or another. It’s just, that’s just how it is. Do you reckon it’s being triggered here in ceremony for a reason, because you need to process that feeling outs- outside of the ceremony? The-

MMA fighters: I think it’s possible, and I was just thinking about this.

My intention coming in here in the first place was to work on my voice, because I withhold a lot. I, I feel like my throat chakra is blocked.

And some things have been happening, and it makes me wanna speak out more, so maybe that… Maybe it’s happening on purpose.

Sam Believ: You are speaking now.

MMA fighters: Yeah.

Sam Believ: Which is a great step, ’cause a lot of people are not, would not be able

MMA fighters: to do it.

Sam Believ: Yeah, it’s very interesting. How do you like it so far? ‘Cause obviously it’s… I think it’s your first time with the Colombian ayahuasca.

MMA fighters: Yeah. No, I do like it. It’s a lot stronger than what I expected.

Yeah, ’cause I, I just feel every time I drink it, within 20 minutes I’m dropped in, which is very unusual for me. So yeah. And I feel like two ceremonies ago was pretty insightful, so yeah.

Sam Believ: Good to hear. It…

MMA fighters: Yeah. I feel, I do feel like two ceremonies ago, I didn’t say this in the word circle, but I realized ayahuasca’s playing a trick, or almost te- doing a test on me, where she gives me options and I choose, but I didn’t realize it.

And I… At the end of the night, I was frustrated, and I was mad ’cause I didn’t get this amazing change it, within me.

But I didn’t get that because I chose this, the easy options that I always choose every day.

And that’s… and she kinda li- laughed at me, and she’s like who are you mad at?

You should be mad at yourself.”

Sam Believ: Yeah, ayahuasca can be playful and have humor, and also can be tricky, and it’s a very interesting medicine.

I’m glad you’re here.

MMA fighters: Yeah.

Sam Believ: I’m glad you’re enjoying it, and there’s still one more ceremony to go. Have you ever done this ceremony before?

MMA fighters: No. No, I’m I’m nervous, but I’m excited.

Sam Believ: I think you’re gonna love it.

MMA fighters: Yeah. Thank you.

Sam Believ: Thank you. Thank you for sharing.

MMA fighters: Yeah. Thank you.

Sam Believ: Hello.

MMA fighters: Hello.

Sam Believ: What’s your name?

MMA fighters: My name is Jared Fichetta.

Sam Believ: Jared, tell us about yourself.

MMA fighters: So I am a Marine Corps veteran martial artist with a strong wrestling background.

I wrestled from probably age of six. Through my Marine Corps career I wrestled at the senior level, the world international level. And now I compete full time in jujitsu. So I’m a jujitsu brown belt. I’ve had some amateur MMA fights, mixed martial arts fights, and I also do a sport called combat jujitsu, where there’s palm strikes mixed with jujitsu.

Sam Believ: Nice. So you’ve been here for one week-

…

Sam Believ: Drinking ayahuasca. Let’s talk about your experience.

MMA fighters: Yeah. Yeah, it was incredible. From the moment I got here the, the land really sets the setting for anybody who’s you know, looking into retreats or want to maybe follow a curiosity, really the set and the setting, the people that are hosting the retreat are the thing that makes it, that makes the experience what it is.

Mixed in with your own personal intentions and process. But I will say having been at– I think this is my fourth retreat center that I’ve been to and all of them were beautiful in their own way, and all of the people I trusted and so they all went very well. But this one has a very unique flavor to it in that the land is phenomenal.

It’s very well-maintained. It’s a gorgeous property. The waterfall on the property, the animals on the property, but then the people here, the hospitality, just the intention that goes into every little detail from the way that the ceremony is set up, from all the little rules and having things the way that they are the schedule.

It just made everything flow so naturally. There was never any pressure, and everybody had a space to get to know one another and just relax, and really relax into the space. Time to relax on the front end and time to relax on the back end in between ceremonies. This was really good. And then personally for me, my ceremonies went beautifully.

I really enjoyed the fourth ceremony. Doing a day ceremony was ver- It was new for me, and it was, yeah, very profound.

Sam Believ: How did it feel for you specifically sharing space with other people that are also fighters?

MMA fighters: Yeah. The energy of the room always matters and I’ve been very fortunate to sit with some really beautiful people in my, my time, and it’s just re- always really cool to get to dive deeper into the human experience and all, all the different pathways of life that can take somebody.

But this one, having the unique bond of being fighters, whereas I’ve been in retreats where I’ve been all veterans, which is really cool, and it’s a great place to serve, and it’s a unique place. But fighters, it’s a bit different, right? You have this high-level performance mindset. It’s almost like the special operations level of the military or something like that, where they’re such high performers and they think in such a unique way that it made for a really unique experience.

Everybody came in here with some pretty Phenomenal accolades and achievements but really because of their process, it felt like everybody let that sort of egoic presence kinda go, and then really surrender to the medicine. And there’s like a h- a sense of there’s this higher purpose, right?

So Ian being the sort of leader of this whole thing in Athlete’s Journey Home really set the tone for the why, the purpose. It’s yeah, we are here to do our internal purpose, but why? We do our own to- internal purpose so that we can become the best versions of ourselves, so that we can show up in our community, show up in our families with a full cup, and be able to yeah, really have this deeper connection with source and know that, there is a work higher than us, a higher power, something else leading the whole thing.

So I feel really honored and really just grateful to have met everybody that I’ve met. They’re gonna be people that I’m going to work with for years to come, I’m sure of it. And yeah, I c- I can’t say good enough things about the, the group that came.

Sam Believ: And obviously you started working with the medicine a while ago, and I’m assuming as a veteran, it’s like a mix of PTSD and traumatic brain injury.

How are your results so far? Obviously you must be doing it for a reason. What are you observing? What are your hopes for this space?

MMA fighters: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, two years ago I started this journey with Ayahuasca in Peru and then started working with the Yage tradition after that, and that’s been the majority of my ceremonies since.

And I will say that my life really opened up. I do think that once you commit to this process, you are committing to an opening of sort of an energetic release valve or something like this. But as you’re doing it, and if you have the support and the integration coaches and the, It’s really the support, but also the sort of inner resolve to just kinda meet spirit halfway.

There’s always gonna be this at least for me, there was this beautiful shift, and it just, I noticed the shift, okay, things were shifting and I can I felt it in my inner state, my attitude towards life, my appreciation for things. And it gave me more confidence to look deeper at things, look more at where I was misaligned, more at where I wasn’t kinda meeting the standard that I know that my soul really asked me for.

It was constantly asking me for. So you just, you open this valve and then you have more images to work with that are coming up and out, and you have to be, it’s that much more important to be honest with yourself. So when I got out of the military, I not only was leaving this really secure foundation that I left because I felt abused, like I felt like the system didn’t care about me and it was ready to discard me at any point.

And I loved what I did. It was a great time, and I have certain people that I just I’m so glad I met in the military. But as I was getting out, it really affected a rela- my relationship with my ex-wife. We got a divorce, so that also triggered a snowball effect of things, ’cause I had been with her for…

It had been 13 years, so it’s a long relationship really weaved into my life. And so to untangle some of these things from my past took a little bit of time, and it– and I’m just so grateful I had Ayahuasca to help me, to work with me, and be really graceful at times. And sometimes she was hard, and sometimes I was purging my guts out, but that’s what I needed, to really know that things were happening, that there were things inside of me that toxins that I got from being exposed to whatever in the military or whatever’s put in our food or whatever’s put into our consciousness energetically through media or whatever it is.

It’s like the more I did the process that doing the integration on the back end and changing my habits while my brain is more in a plastic state, like I have, I’ve changed my relationship to almost everything. My parent… myself we’ll start with, and my parents, and then how I relate to women, specifically romantically, and how I relate to cannabis, substances, these, all these things.

It’s like a lot of things I was able to just observe the relationship more often and observe the conversation that’s going on in my head. And I feel like things just kinda got, like if it was a computer, I thi- feel like a lot of the junk data just gets wiped, and I don’t really know where it went, and I don’t really care, ’cause then you have a more open space to start to put good things back in and- more of, more in tune with what I actually want to be, what I actually want to show up as in the, in, in my life. So yeah, the medicine’s been phenomenal for me in the last two years.

Sam Believ: Last question, like what would you say to someone, let’s say fighters or veterans or just so let’s say like extra masculine guys that would be like, “Yeah, this, this medicine is just like some hippie stuff.”

Like that’s maybe afraid it’s gonna take away their edge or make them soft.

MMA fighters: Yeah. Yeah, I hear that a lot from guys. They’re like, “Oh,” like esp- there’s this, my buddy who’s a fighter who has been wrestling with the idea. He’s like I just don’t wanna lose like you said, my edge,” or “I don’t wanna like this is what keeps me sharp, this is what keeps me going,” and all these things.

But I always challenge and say “But you’re s- you’re creating so much suffering and so much… Like you’re coming to me with the, this problem and this problem.” But it’s and usually it shows up in relationship, right? Their, it shows up in their relationship to the feminine a lot of times, and I learned this, a lot about this in my Jungian master’s program, where it’s like men have this relationship to the world through their anima, which is their projection of what the feminine is.

Which, the feminine can be just Mother Earth matter, or mother, or it stems from the mother, but it a lot oftentimes gets projected onto a romantic figure or something like this. And so we have this imbalance that we see in our external world. “I can’t get it right with my girl.” “My kids hate me,” or like they just don’t get, and you feel misunderstood.

And I think a lot of times what that is we’re overma- or I don’t know if it’s over-masculinized, but I think we just emphasize the wrong aspects of masculinity without this Balancing effect of the right sort of relationship to the feminine, what it, the feminine is. ‘Cause we all have it inside of us.

Our psyches are feminine and masculine, always going back and forth, mixing. It’s this all chemical process that’s going on. And so I think the medicine for me, what it did was allowed me to reconnect with that more sensual, like earthy part of myself, like maybe as a frequency, maybe it was part of being in the jungle, maybe it was the medicine, maybe it was all of it.

But I was willing to look at where I was really missing the mark in my relationship with women, first and foremost, so that I could look at relationships a little bit more finely tuned. And I think that really helped me realize that when I’m balanced and I’m being more of who I truly am, that actually makes me a better fighter.

It’s not that I’m not s- I’m st- I’m still have my own conflict that I can choose my conflict a little more intentionally maybe.

And I think it’s made me a better fighter. It’s made me a more calm fighter. It’s made me a more present fighter. It helps me select things out of desire and wanting to do something, not out of fear be, that I’m gonna be forgotten or left, or that s- I’ll become irrelevant or something like that.

It’s because, no, I wanna do it. Because I want to make my mom proud, I wanna make my girl proud or whatever it is that’s like the reason, the core reason. So I would just say jump into it. Have some, some of like desire to feel into a little bit more, have a more rich life, and have more of that like, yeah, maybe that relationship with the femi- feminine could be, what you always maybe hoped it could be or something like that.

Sam Believ: Yeah, ’cause Ayahuasca is a sort of feminine spirit, and I think it helps with that as well. Thank you, Jared. Yes, Sam. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for coming. Let’s hope this, Let’s hope more people will wanna join us.

MMA fighters: Absolutely. Thanks, Sam.

Sam Believ: Hello,

MMA fighters: Hello. Who are you? Fernando Marrero.

Sam Believ: Tell us about yourself, Fernando.

MMA fighters: Oh, man. Man, I’m a kid, from the other side of the tracks from inner city Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Poor, disenfranchised, impoverished family. A lot of disadvantages, pretty much all the stereotypes that, one in America in those types of conditions would be kinda categorized in, that would be me, and one who’s, not supposed to make it, not supposed to be here.

But, by the grace of God and, just so many different things, I don’t believe in circumstance, just by grace, man, and I’m here. I’ve overcome, championed a lot of obstacles.

Sam Believ: So you you had a hard life, obviously, a difficult start. Yeah. What got you into fighting and what you do now?

Tell us that story.

MMA fighters: Absolutely. Yeah, so around that time, I got, When we came out to Los Angeles, I couldn’t really find a, high-paying gainful employment or whatnot. I got tired of the bullshit jobs, the security jobs, and, the different, whatever I had to do to, make ends meet.

And then I said, fuck it. Let me go ahead and go back to school. What can I do?” And military members, veterans, we’re creatures of habit. Structure, order, discipline, whatever. And you know what? Fuck it. I decided to re-enlist. So I, this time I chose to re-enlist into the United States Army.

And I said, “Fuck the Air Force,” went to the Army, got in the Army. And then from there I went ahead and decided to go to school. I had the option to revert to the National Guard component of the US Army, to where it’s part-time to where I’m still a civilian but I just report for duty training one weekend a month, two weeks in a year.

They pay for my college. At the time I was attending Santa Monica College. It’s a junior college community college in Santa Monica, California, Los Angeles metro area. It was about 2004, 2005. From that point on, Right around 2005, January 2005 I got orders to deploy to the war in Iraq.

I, okay there goes school, deferment, had to drop out, whatever deferment or whatever, pull out, withdraw. And then I went through my training. I was at Camp W.G. Williams in Riverton, Utah, right outside Salt Lake City some, for some field training for my MOS which is my military occupation specialty assigned when I was in the Army.

I was a cannon crew member, 13 Bravo field artillery. So we worked with tanks, howitzers, you know, lobbing, big-ass rounds of, artillery downrange because that’s what I was gonna do in the war, blow up buildings and shit and whatever, in the shit, in, in, in the field.

So this was, like, early to mid-January. I was going through my training, getting ready for deployment and everything else, and then from that point on there was a situation where I guess my ex-wife, my first wife from in Philadelphia, my kid’s mom, and she had a whole bunch of other kids as well, a whole bunch of different men.

She had all of her kids taken from her from social services it was DHS, Department of Human Services in Philadelphia. And all the kids were put into group homes, foster homes, into the system, became wards of the state and all that. And they were young. They were babies at the time.

And then I was fighting back and forth all of, you know, 2004, flying back and forth from Los Angeles because I found out late 2003, and then trying to, get custody or whatever. And then finally she had fucked up one last time or whatever, and then I was awarded custody of both… first of my son, Fernando, because my son, Jonathan, the Olympian, I didn’t know he was mine.

First time I met him, he was four years old. She was pregnant. She was, messing around with other guys and one particular guy in devi- in, in particular who was alleged to be the father. But of course DNA, court systems, they have to estab-establish paternity. I became the father out of a, a plethora of possible fathers, potential fathers.

And then from that point I got custody. Before I got custody, I got hurt. I got hurt in my training blew out my shoulder, torn rotator cuff, separated shoulder, superior posterior labrum, so that pretty much got me medically disqualified, medically booted from the US Army as well as the war in Iraq.

I guess that was a blessing in disguise, but, as a young man, your ego, testosterone, the camaraderie, the brotherhood, you wanna be out there with your brothers or whatever. But who knows? I probably would’ve came back in a pine box, and I wouldn’t be sitting here talking to you right now, so everything happens for a reason, I believe divinely. And then shortly thereafter, I got the word, and I was awarded full custody of my son and then subsequently finding out that Jonathan was mine. And then so they had to do what was called an interstate compact. I’m sorry it’s taking so long, but it’s just the big story leading up to it.

It’s such a dynamic story or whatever. And they had to do what’s called an interstate compact to where once I got awarded custody, the state of Pennsylvania and city of Philadelphia had to coordinate with the state of California, where I was living at this time and established, and the city of Los Angeles with their social services department.

They come out to my home, and then my girlfriend at the time, my former partner, they investigate. They, make sure, okay, he’s this. His finances, his home, everything’s intact, in order. Oh, this guy’s a great guy. He’s Army, this and that yada, yada. So everything checked out. Three months later, I remember the date still, March 22nd, 2005, I flew out to Philadelphia, met with the social worker, head social worker or whatever.

Suzanne Barth was her name. I don’t know why I still remember her name, such an poignant time in my life. Downtown Center City, Philadelphia here comes Suzanne Barth, the social worker, along with my two sons, Fernando and John, and they were four and five years old at the time, just little bo- little boys, little babies.

They had one book bag each, a teddy bear each, and that was it. Grabbed their hands, went to go see some family, said goodbye to some close family members. Went to Philadelphia International Airport, got on the plane, and never looked back. Flew to Los Angeles and now from four and five, and here they are 27 and, 25 almost and just a phenomenal story.

So from that point on, it’s like, okay, now, fuck, I’m injured. I’m out the Army. I’m fighting the VA and the US government for some sort of benefits, healthcare, whatever. That’s a- another story, but it’s something that’s very predominant in America when it comes to veterans or whatnot. And just trying to do…

What can I do? So I started doing… I was a big guy from playing football. I rehabbed the shoulder as best I could or whatnot, got to a point to where, I’m lifting weights again. I’m getting strong. I’m started doing bodyguard protection bouncer type work, Hollywood nightclubs.

That, that was a big thing in the nightclub scene at the height of its… nightclub scene and popularity in Hollywood and Los Angeles at the time And a lot of the bouncers were from internatio- or international from different countries from actually Latvia, Russia, North Ossetia- … the Netherlands.

And they were, like, cage fighters or kickboxers, Dutch kickboxers. And they were like, or so a lot of Brazilians, and they were like “Fernelli, you’re a big guy. You ever thought about fighting or whatever?” And, he invited me to some of the gyms. And my first because I was always the athlete, always the football player, I fought in the streets, stuff like that, but I never had a martial arts background.

So I was like, “You motherfuckers are crazy.” That was my initial, instinct or whatever. I’m like, “I don’t know if I wanna…” You know what I mean? But then went around to some of the gyms, got invited to some of the gyms, ended up settling down at the Academy of Martial Arts Team Freedom with Coach Ahmad Reese down in South Los Angeles 43rd and Crenshaw.

And basically it was a little dungeon in the hood, South LA, South Central LA. And basically he’s, comes from a lineage and a pedigree of phenomenal fighters and tacticians and minds in the sport and in the industry back then during the pioneering days when it was just no rules, no holds barred.

And he took me up under his wing and gave me everything. He birthed me into the game, and then he allowed me to branch out, and I branched out to different schools, trainers, and the who’s who. I’ve trained with and been around and come from that lineage. And I just started fighting. I sta- I started my amateur career.

Wasn’t considered amateur. It was called smokers. Basically it’s like non-sanctioned, illegal, underground-type fights where you fought for free, you fought for little money, or there was gambling involved, organized crime, shit like that. And then, you made a little money or you made a lot of money depending on what, whatever.

And then my last fight, I fought actually the underground non-sanctioned smoker fight. It was called the Ring of Fire in Monrovia, California. I blew my knee out, tore my ACL and PCL. That was 2008, January 2008. Ended up losing the fight by decision, but actually was, it was I’m a warrior.

I’m gonna die on my shield. And actually, was going back and forth with a blown out knee and finished the fight in full mount and just beating the guy’s face in with a blown out knee. He got the decision. So that was the only blemish on my, on the unsanctioned, unofficial record, amateur background of seven and one, so seven wins, one loss.

Had to get knee surgery. It was brutal. It was rough. Two years out the game, 2008, 2009, 2010 looking fully recovered, training with the who’s who of, MMA and BJJ from, Royce Gracie and Pat King was a black belt under Royce Gracie. The Machados trained with the Body Shop, Antonio McKee and the who’s who that come Rampage Jackson and, Savant Young and Lateef Williams and some of the great guys that came out of Body Shop, Jesse Juarez, Brett Cooper.

And then from that point on just bounced around. And then around 2009, 2010 or whatever, I was in another relationship. Unfortunately, that seems to be the recurring theme in my demise, women and, bad relationships. And, this particular woman we dated for, we were quite serious.

She became pregnant. I lost my job. She came from a well-to-do family. My background, whatever, wasn’t really so accepting of me or my background because I guess didn’t fit the status quo, what they expected and their expectations, what they thought she should be and then, or who she should be with.

And then from that point forward lost my job. We had, arguments, whatever. And then basically treated me as if I was, insignificant, irrelevant, a bum, couldn’t make any money or whatever. And then she decided to get an abortion behind my back at an abortion clinic in Los Angeles.

Found out from her mom. Her mom called me. I was frantic, whatever. I ended up calling down to the abortion clinic, talk to whoever, trying to see what we can do to stop it or whatever. And then whatever, representative or whoever was on the phone intake or whoever got a little flippant at the mouth and, I’m already in not a good state of mind and I felt disrespected and they said some, bullshit.

And I said, basically, fuck you. Who the fuck do you think you’re talking to? I’ll come down this motherfucker, beat your ass, drag your ass up and down the street, blow this motherfucker. You know what I mean? Just hey, let’s take this shit outside, motherfucker. That’s how I was and young and, ego and testosterone.

They called the cops and I was charged with terrorist threats. And I ended up serving a year in LA County Prison Supermax because of that. No criminal background, no nothing, never been in trouble with the law, whatever, but just something just from your emotions getting the best of you or whatever.

But still, I didn’t think, I guess that type of punishment should have fit that type of situation or the crime or whatever. It was all bullshit. But just from that situation, ended up taking 10 years from my life because five years probation and then 10 years without my guns and professional licenses, bodyguard, things that I needed to actually, what I was doing to make money and provide for myself and to provide a good quality of life for my kids or whatever have you.

So I basically had to build myself up again from the ground up. So I was incarcerated for a year from 2010 to 2011, got out. And then from 2011 all right, let’s go ahead and pick up this MMA thing back up. Got back in shape, hitting the weights again, all that, whatever, get back into fight shape, fight camp.

And then finally yeah, I ended up having my actually, yeah, my pro debut was actually before I went in. So that’s 2010. I lost my professional debut. It was at, R- Respect in the Cage. That was a promotion in California out in Pomona, California. I was supposed to fight a guy.

We were equally matched. We were blue belts or whatever. He’s a ex, ex-Marine, or he was active Marine, but he got orders deployed to Afghanistan or whatnot at the time. So they put a last-minute replacement in which was… I was outmatched as far as experience and skill level. Steven Martinez great guy, phenomenal guy.

And then finally, I had a series of injuries and, some brain trauma and all that or whatever accidents, and just from sparring and concussions and military, whatever the fuck. So I ended up finally getting a fight 2014, my second pro fight, Built 4 Domination in Arizona, Phoenix, Arizona, against former UFC fighter, Jordan Johnson, who actually, we were both starting our careers and coming up at the time.

So now I’m even more in a deep, dark depression, starting my career upside down, zero wins, two losses, which is very mentally, fucked up, and it fucks with you or whatever, and you start questioning your abilities and everything else. But you come back. I’m just one of those type of, fighters, soldier, whatever.

Hey, I finish and I follow through what we start. Like I’ve been through the fire, been through worse, and we’re gonna pull ourselves out this bitch. So took some time off from the head trauma and everything else and came back, and then two years later, 2016, now I’m at Black House, and I’m growing and even more, and now I just turned into this fucking animal monster or whatnot with so much a- rage and anger, and I just always fought with a chip on my shoulder, even predicated more so off my press my past prior, tr- life experiences and childhood trauma and just life conditions.

And so 2016 get an opportunity with another California promotion called Gladiator Challenge. So there’s a few of them Gladiator Challenge, King of the Cage. They were real big in California. And Ted Williams, who was the promoter his son Teddy Williams Jr they gave me an opportunity, gave me a shot.

I started, going on a fucking tear, and I went on a 10-fight win streak, won two world titles and basically ended up finishing my career with Gladiator Challenge. I was trying to, a few opportunities, tried to book with LFA, RFA, LFC, and then they merged and became LFA, and then things, negotiations just fell through.

And then never really got the push or the opportunity to go to Japan or Shooto or RIZIN or DREAM ’cause, at this time, Pride was already defunct. Didn’t get the opportunity or the advocacy, that voice, the, that mouthpiece or whoever to really say, “Okay, yo, you need to look at this guy.

Let’s get him in.” It’s a lot of nepotism, gatekeeping, politics or whatever, and I just wasn’t part of the in crowd.

Sam Believ: How is, Obviously you were, you’re a fighter and you probably got quite a few head punches. Obviously, football, all of that is a traumatic brain injury-inducing kind of sports. Tell us about that.

Obviously we were doing the retreat plus science on traumatic brain injury. How- … how do you feel? Do you reckon there is an improvement there? Obviously, science will come in later, but for now, N of one, what do you feel?

MMA fighters: Absolutely, man. I truly immensely feel there’s been an improvement.

I have so much more clarity. I don’t have the brain fog that I used to have. I still have some lapses in memory or whatever, but shit, that’s just given the nature of my life and the sports and, work and life experiences or whatever. But there’s been a tremendous amount of improvement.

There’s so much more focus, so much more clarity. I’m not as on edge. I’m not as triggered. I’m not as angry. I feel that, I’m more confident and hopeful for, the future for a lot of things, both personally, professionally, and even though I’m going through things personally right now in my personal life, which, happened, last summer, started last summer.

And, my wife and I, we’re currently estranged and we’re separated for, since last August. And, and then from, my former partner, my son’s, surrogate mom, she passed away around that. But everything was just kinda this snowball effect, and it just… things in life personally or whatever, and I just was overload and almost checked out and almost snapped and just lost it and crashed the fuck out.

But by the grace of God and, being a part of the MMAFA, the Mixed Martial Arts Fighters Association, which is a union that we’re trying to establish for the world of MMA and fighters and trying to get the Ali Act passed in the world of MMA because, fighters are overly exploited by a lot of promotions- within the world of MMA, just like in boxing or just any type of combat sports or whatever. Fighters get taken advantage of underpaid, underappreciated, disrespected, and just, now they’re left, minds are broken, bodies are broken, and, now they have internal struggles and just disrupted lives and broken relationships within their family dynamic.

But after that, just, it, it’s just, I just feel so much more clarity. And then within that, it’s crazy because, me and Ian McCall, that’s how I got in this, and he’s part of the MMAFA as well, and we have similar circles. And over the last 20 years, we’ve always had similar circles, but we never crossed paths, and, just divinely by MMAFA, he just, put, in the in the group and “Hey, I’m doing this work. I’m doing this.” And for any of the fighters, I really employ, a lot of fighters, with macho ego, “I don’t need that shit. I don’t need no help,” or you don’t feel like there’s a safe space to really talk about that.

And but I knew that and espe- especially even more so what I was experiencing, last summer, like that was my breaking point. And I reached out to Ian, I’m like, “Hey, man I’ve done shrooms before. I’ve done, cocaine. I’ve done all types of, you know, things to, distract me from, the ills of life.

And, I’m interested.” You know what I mean? I’ve always seen documentaries on ayahuasca, you know i’ve always heard about stuff like that, and I feel that there’s like an ancestral connection. I come from a Latino background heritage, and also Native as well, Cherokee and Taino.

And my grandfather, Santiago Marrero going back to Puerto Rico, and he’s also, of Taino lineage native indigenous lineage. And I said, I need to heal.” And I think, individuals respectively, like at some point, we are responsible for our own path and our own healing.

We are the authors of our own destiny. And how is this chapter, how is this life gonna end for us, and I didn’t want it to end, because I have, two young kids. I have a four-year-old son. He’s autistic. I have a three-year-old daughter, my baby girl. I love them to death from my current wife right now.

And I just I gotta be here for them, and just like I was there for, my previous two sons from my first wife and, here they are doing great things. My oldest is in the military. He’s a grown man living life, doing everything for himself. And then my son Jonathan, the first Olympian in my bloodline, in our family.

That’s, what, probably less than 1% of 1%, a fraction thereof who can actually say that they made it to the Olympics and let alone has accom- accomplished so many other things. So from that point on, I just, reached out to Ian and we talked and, we really connected and bonded.

And then even more so coming down here, we just connected and bonded and it’s an eternal brotherhood along with everybody else here.

Sam Believ: You’ve been listening to ayahuasca podcast dot com. As always, with the host Sam Believe, and I’ll see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you’d like to support us and Psychedelic Renaissance at large, please follow us and leave us a wherever it is you’re listening.

Share this episode with someone who will benefit from this information. Nothing in this podcast is intended as medical advice, and it is for educational and entertainment purposes only. This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat. At LaWayra, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity.

LaWayra, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you.

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with Paul F. Austin. Paul is a leading pioneer in the modern psychedelic movement, founder of Third Wave, author of Mastering Microdosing, host of The Psychedelic Podcast, and head of the Psychedelic Coaching Institute. He focuses on psychedelic education, microdosing protocols, and training practitioners to help scale the responsible use of these medicines in the modern world.

We touch upon topics of

• 00:01–00:44 Introduction to Paul F. Austin and his work
• 00:44–03:14 Paul’s early LSD experiences and conservative upbringing
• 03:14–04:17 First microdosing protocol and founding Third Wave
• 04:18–07:08 Convincing his parents and guiding his dad through a mushroom journey
• 07:09–10:01 Parent–child healing and psychedelic experiences together
• 10:02–13:29 The “third wave” of psychedelics explained (indigenous → LSD era → today)
• 13:30–15:45 Microdosing as the safest path to legalization and cultural acceptance
• 15:46–17:29 Stepwise dosing and retreat philosophies
• 17:30–20:16 Why different psychedelics require different approaches
• 20:17–22:09 Psilocybin tolerance and retreat spacing strategies
• 22:10–27:29 Microdosing LSD vs psilocybin vs wachuma
• 27:30–30:48 Vine-only microdosing and adaptogenic effects
• 30:49–35:34 Psychedelics vs SSRIs and the “crutch” metaphor
• 35:35–41:39 Importance of psychedelic education and practitioner training
• 41:40–45:38 Addiction, cannabis dependence, and integration
• 45:39–49:15 “CEO medicine” and psychedelics for conscious leadership
• 49:16–52:27 What Paul is excited about in 2026 and the future of psychedelics

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to http://www.lawayra.com

Find more about Paul F. Austin at thethirdwave.co and follow him on social media at @PaulAustin3W

Transcript

Paul F. Austin: My big mission and vision is how do we get psychedelics legal, available, and accessible to any adult who wants to use them, and i- in my perspective, microdosing is the safest way to do that. I think what we’re gonna start to see and notice in the next decade is there’s gonna be a massive industry that starts to pop up to help people get off SSRI medications and onto psychedelic medicine.

SSRIs are like a crutch for your mental health. Sometimes you break a leg and you need that crutch, but the whole point of the crutch is to get you walking again. I characterize the second wave as the reintroduction of psychedelic substances into the consciousness of Western civilization in particular.

And that was through the invention of LSD, what a lot of people don’t realize is that the internet exists because of LSD. When LSD was starting to be used in clinical trials at Stanford, Ken Kesey snuck out a bunch of acid and distributed it all over Palo Alto, which that became Silicon Valley and you look at people who were very involved, Steve Jobs is the most famous one.

I say LSD is love in crystal form.

Sam Believ: You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast dot com.

Hi, guys, and welcome to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, with you, the host, Sam Believ, and today I’m having a conversation with Paul F. Austin. Paul is a leading pioneer in the modern psychedelic movement and the founder of Third Wave. As an entrepreneur, author of Mastering Microdoses, and a frequent voice in outlets like Forbes and New York Times, Paul is at the forefront of shifting psychedelics from counterculture into a tool for leadership, creativity, and personal transformation.

Paul is also the host of Psychedelic Podcast, and head of Psychedelic Coaching Institute. This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat. At LaWayra, we combine affordability,

Paul F. Austin: accessibility, and authenticity. LaWayra, connect, heal, grow.

Sam Believ: Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you. Paul, welcome to the show.

Paul F. Austin: Thank you, Sam. It’s it’s great to be here. Thanks for having me on.

Sam Believ: Paul let’s start from your story, like what, what in your life put you on this path?

Paul F. Austin: Yeah I did a bunch of acid when I was 19, and these were not microdoses. These were macrodoses. This was a tab or two or three, usually with a friend or two, or sometimes a larger group of friends in my college years when I was 19, 20.

And I became curious about psychedelics from a my best friend in high school who had introduced me to cannabis. Yeah … and a few years after cannabis, it turned me onto mushrooms, and I tried mushrooms and thought, “This is interesting.” And then I found LSD, and LSD was really the one that, that stuck for me.

And I was raised in a pretty traditional home environment in the Midwest, here in the, the States. So my parents were very, church-focused. Anything that was illegal was bad. And so when they found out that I had been experimenting with cannabis, they yeah they expressed their disappointment to the point where my dad said he hadn’t been this bummed, this disappointed since his brother had died in a car accident, right?

That’s how impactful my illicit drug use was for my parents. And so from that experience, I quickly realized that, I was on my own, that I had to figure out this path, that I wasn’t necessarily going to be able to share all these aspects with not just my family, but my general community, ’cause the community as a whole that I was raised in was quite conservative.

So when I had my early experiences with LSD, like many other folks who explore psychedelics, at least at that point in time, I thought, “Oh, this is a drug. It’s an illegal drug. It must be bad. This feels so good.” I’m having all these insights and ahas and perspective changes, but everything that I’ve heard about LSD says, “Oh, this is harmful for my brain,” or, “This is harmful for my body.”

And and so at the age of 21, 22, I phased it out for a couple years. And then in 2015 I noticed that more and more people were starting to talk about psychedelics, more podcasts, there was more research coming out. Cannabis was being reevaluated. And so in 2015, I started to do a deep dive into all things psychedelic, and lo and behold, figured out that these weren’t nearly as, dangerous as I had been initially led to believe.

And so in 2015, I started my first microdosing protocol where I did a low dose of LSD two times a week for about six months, and through that experience, started Third Wave as an educational platform. This is over a decade ago now. Just as a resource, as an asset for people to have as they started their psychedelic exploration.

And so over the last decade, I’ve had my hands in many pots education, media, training, retreats. I wrote a book. I have a second book coming out. But the core focus has really been around education and training in the psychedelic space. I believe that if these, these tools are used with intention and responsibility, they can really catalyze tremendous healing and transformation.

And so I’ve been a a very big advocate for their use and I’m really excited about where we are now in, in 2026 and what opportunities are available for people to explore these, these substances respectfully and safely.

Sam Believ: Thank you for sharing, Paul. You mentioned your story with your dad and how he was bummed, and like it affected him strongly.

I know that since then you’ve converted him from skeptic to believer. Can you tell us that story?

Paul F. Austin: Yeah. When this thing happened with cannabis, it would’ve been 2006. I was 16 years old. And at that point in time, my parents were very anti-everything. And when I was 24, so in 2014, I ca- I opened up to my parents.

I told them, “Look, I’ve been exploring psychedelics, I’ve been exploring LSD. It’s meant a lot to me.” Even at that point in 2014, they were still quite disappointed, and they couldn’t believe it, and they were in shock. And it wasn’t until I started Third Wave and then actually started to make a living from this, ’cause I had an initial business that I taught English online.

So I sold that business, really went all in on the psychedelic part and through that work, my parents started to become more and more open. And then when Michael Pollan’s book came out in 2018, How to Change Your Mind I shared that with my dad. He read it. He was open to microdosing. My dad is very keen on all things longevity he’s really big on diet and sleep and exercise, and he’s always reading a book about how to live longer and be healthier, right?

So I pitched microdosing to him as a thing that was gonna help him maintain a high level of cognition at a, at an older age. He microdosed. He enjoyed it. And then I pitched him on the idea of doing a, a mushroom experience, a high-dose mushroom experience. This would’ve been in 2019. And he was open to it.

And I guided him through a high-dose mushroom experience, and it was impactful for him, for sure interesting. And, ever since that point in time, my parents are very supportive and of the, the work that I’m doing. And and it’s and it’s, that’s saying a lot because in the Midwest, especially where they’re from in Grand Rapids, there’s not a lot of people who are openly talking about this still.

I’m really proud of them just for keeping an open mind.

And not continuing to be in judgment and shame around it.

Sam Believ: We have a lot of people coming to LaWayra that after having that experience, they get obsessed with convincing their parents to come. And a lot of them end up doing it, and then they’re coming, and it’s always very profound.

Those… it’s good for couples, but like parent-child couples seem to be– There’s like a lot of very special healing that happens. So have you observed like big change in your relationship with your dad afterward? Was one ceremony enough, and w- should– do you reckon should more kids try and bring their parents to Ayahuasca or psychedelics?

Paul F. Austin: Yeah, it’s a good question. My relationship with my parents is interesting because when I was 21, I’d moved away from Michigan, where I’d, lived for the first 21 years of my life, and I taught English in Turkey. And I lived abroad for the better part of five years, and then, I- I’ve lived in New York, Miami, Oakland.

So I’ve gone back to Michigan here and there, but I’ve never moved back. And so I see my parents occasionally. I probably see them two or three times a year. We talk on the phone every now and then. We have a close relationship, but it’s not it’s not like we’re texting every day, as an example.

So I think the big thing that it shifted for my dad and I, and for my parents and I, is it just made them more willing and open to accept the work that I do and sort of parts of who I am. So it just got this awkward part out of the way. But I will give my parents credit in saying that they’ve always been very in many ways open, about w- who I wanna be and what I wanna do and who I wanna become.

My dad’s profession is in career counseling for a university and so as you can imagine, moving abroad to teach English in Turkey was not necessarily the standard conventional thing to do out of university. A lot of my friends went and got corporate jobs, and, or went to graduate school, and yet they were always very supportive of my more unconventional path.

So I think there’s always been a lot of love there. And and I still haven’t done psychedelics with my mom. Maybe at some point. They’re now 70. Maybe at some point we’ll get that chance. I think MDMA, if anything, would be more powerful. Even with the, the psilocybin mushroom experience, I was guiding my dad through it, so he was really into medicine.

I didn’t really take any medicine. I was just there to support him and whatnot. We haven’t yet really drank Ayahuasca together or done MDMA together or had that sort of peak experience at the same time. It’s something I would be open to, and I think something they’d be open to, just haven’t been able to book it.

Partly because I already have a pretty good relationship with them. There, there’s no weird energy or, estrangement or, we’re never out of touch or anything like that. So I don’t feel like there’s a lot to heal necessarily. I already have a pretty good relationship with them, and and partly just because I don’t live close by with them.

The opportunity to do it is just… it’s not as present. And and I pitched my dad on the idea of, “Let’s go down to Costa Rica and drink Ayahuasca together,” and he, he said he would be open to it, so you never know. Maybe at some point- we’ll be able to do that together.

Sam Believ: You can come here to LaWayra with him. I’ll give you a big discount.

Paul F. Austin: Okay. Thank you .

Sam Believ: So your your your business is called Third Wave, right? Which obviously refers to the third wave of psychedelics or this kind of renaissance that we’re experiencing.

Let’s talk about that, how is this wave different than others, and what do you like about it and what you don’t like about it?

Paul F. Austin: Yeah, we could spend the rest of the podcast probably going into, to that analysis. So just some context for listeners, right? Third Wave came out of the third wave of psychedelics.

That was an amalgamation between third wave coffee and taking acid. So I was living in Budapest in 2015, visiting all these third wave coffee places, which are these artisanal coffee places with really fancy cappuccinos and flat whites and, things like that, and microdosing with LSD, and they just emerged.

I was talking with a couple friends about how do we characterize this current moment as it relates to psychedelics and this notion of the third wave of psychedelics came up. And so I sat with that and thought about it and, my, my key area of study in university was history, right?

So a lot of my lens and my analysis and my perspective on psychedelic work is historical in many ways. And so this notion of the third wave of psychedelics suggests we’ve been here before in some ways, meaning that we as a human species have had a relationship with these entheogenic plants for thousands of years.

There’s archeological evidence for peyote that goes back fifteen thousand years. There’s archeological evidence for wachuma, also called San Pedro, that goes back three thousand years. There’s archeological evidence for psilocybin mushrooms that goes probably back probably anywhere from one to two thousand years, maybe longer if are keen on Terence McKenna’s Stoned Ape Theory.

So we have a clear and distinct relationship with these plant medicines and and so that’s number one, right? That’s the first wave of psychedelics, the ancient and indigenous use of psychedelic substances. Then we get to the second wave, and I characterize the second wave as the reintroduction of psychedelic substances into the consciousness of Western civilization in particular.

And that was through the invention of LSD. Albert Hofmann invents LSD in nineteen thirty-eight, discovers its psychoactive properties in nineteen forty-three, and then we have the counterculture. We have thousands of clinical papers published on the efficacy of LSD, and as many of your listeners are aw- are aware, the second wave of psychedelics failed, not necessarily because of a lack of clinical evidence about their efficacy, but because we never figured out how to create sort of a container for these states of ecstasy at a cultural level.

And so my, my perspective on this third wave of psychedelics is that its success will depend not so much on proving clinical efficacy, although this is helpful for those with PTSD, depression, and addiction, but more so how do we create spaces for the ecstatic, for peak experiences, for awe, for mystery, for one- on- oneness in our everyday lives, right?

In our spiritual lives, in our sort of cultural fabric, if you will. And so my, my belief, my assumption has always been that microdosing in particular will act as a stepping stone for broader culture to become more familiar with psychedelic states. And so a lot of people, if they’ve heard of our work before, know of Third Wave or myself, they probably know about my work within the context of microdosing because that’s what I’ve been very public and prominent about.

And that’s been very strategic and intentional. My big mission and vision is how do we get psychedelics legal, available, and accessible to any adult who wants to use them. And in, in my perspective, microdosing is the safest way to do that. And I think One, one thing that’s been unfortunate, I would say, is there hasn’t been a lot of research carried out on low-dose psychedelic work, right?

A lot of the modern psychedelic research has been focused on high doses of psilocybin, MDMA, LSD, Ayahuasca, 5-MeO-DMT. We’re really looking at that breakthrough experience because the impacts are so extreme compared to placebo. But what I think is challenging about that or potentially problematic about that is a lot of folks who have never done psychedelics before may be hesitant to go and do a super high dose of psilocybin as an example.

And so I’m really interested in how, what are ways that we can warm people up, and help them become a little bit more open to the fact that a high dose of a psychedelic might be useful for them. And I think one of the best ways to do that is what a lot of practitioners call the stepwise approach, and this is often used in reference to Bufo 5-MeO-DMT, where when someone works with 5-MeO-DMT, ideally there’s not just a blast-off right away, but you’re doing low doses until you get to a place where you feel like you can really expand and open up into it.

And I think that’s, that should be the practice for mushrooms, that should be the practice for LSD, that should be the practice for maybe even Ayahuasca in some cases. Right? That stepwise approach I think is really a really useful approach to, to take.

Sam Believ: That’s actually very close to the philosophy that we have here at LaWayra, where when people come, we don’t start with like full guns out, like huge doses of Ayahuasca.

And like the doses are very controlled, and they’re very designed for each person. So each night we see like there’s couple cups, right? And that’s the beauty of Ayahuasca that- There is no tolerance. There is actually reverse tolerance, and I have a question to you regarding that.

But we start slow and we get people to a certain threshold, but trying not to overshoot it, but also not to undershoot it. Because if you were to get … give the same amount of ayahuasca to each participant, enough for everyone to have a breakthrough experience, then you have to take couple people to a mental hospital next day.

So you have to find the exact dose for everyone because such a unique, … Depending on your microbiome, on your mental state, what you ate, how much you weighed, what medications you take, do you smoke weed or not, and so many other factors, you might need a different amount. So generally people tend to have a breakthrough experience around, I would say, first ceremony maybe half of the people break through, and the second maybe 75, third 90%, and then by fourth ceremony 99%.

But because of that careful approach, nobody’s freaking out and needs to go needs to run away. So I think that’s … I think the word for it is psycholytic, where it’s not psychedelic. So the first doses we give to people are psycholytic. And then also the preparation, I think it allows people to warm up.

I don’t know if you have anything to say about that.

Paul F. Austin: And ayahuasca is a different beast, right? And this is- This is, I think, some of the nuance that’s been missed in the general discourse on, on, on psychedelics or maybe even drugs, right? On the one hand we have a sense of, if something is called a drug and it’s illegal, it must be bad, so then psychedelics get looped into that.

And then when people hear about psychedelics, they assume that these are all the same. But as you well know, the experience of 5-MeO is going to be different than the experience of ayahuasca, which is gonna be different than mushrooms, than cactus, than LSD, et cetera, et cetera. Ayahuasca, it feels like there- there’s a much more shamanic approach in some ways.

There’s a much more intuitive approach. As you talked about, there, there does tend to be reverse tolerance with ayahuasca, meaning the more you drink, the more sensitive you become to it. This, I think, is largely true of most psychedelics, that the more you do, assuming it’s done within a intentional container and there’s other work being done, it tends to thaw out the nervous system and the sort of protectors, if you will, if we’re using IFS terminology, which allows there to be more sensitivity on a general basis.

And that psychedelic approach, I think is essential to the scaling of psychedelic therapy. I, I just don’t see a world in which, tens of millions of people are jumping, in with a high dose of psychedelic. Maybe ketamine becomes that within the medical system, I’m not sure.

But I do think it would behoove the, the system at large to figure out how do we make microdoses accessible and available to more people so they can titrate and calibrate the dosage to what they feel is appropriate before they decide they wanna jump in the deep end. And, in some ways, that’s happening in the underground, right?

If you go online now in the United States, there’s two dozen, three dozen, four dozen websites you can just order microdoses from and there’s really nothing being done about it. Yeah, I think we just live in interesting times. We live in a world now where psychedelics are quasi-legal, even though they’re still Schedule I substances.

We live in a world where they’re legal in, in certain states, but illegal in others. We live in a world where they’re legal in certain countries, like where you are in Colombia, and illegal in others. But I think what is true is any adult now, I know it’s not fully legal everywhere, but if there was an adult who really wanted to work with psychedelics they could figure out a way to do it, and I don’t know if that was necessarily true a decade ago but I do think that’s true now.

Sam Believ: Regarding the tolerance I’m curious to ask you, ’cause I know you, you organized or still are organizing m- psilo- psilocybin retreat. Yeah. How do you deal with extended retreats and if there is several ceremonies in a row, how do you deal with the tolerance?

Is there maybe some kind of formula to calculate it? Because I ask it from experience, ’cause I’ve tried once to do that. And yeah, so how do you work around that?

Paul F. Austin: So most of our intensives these days, which, I would also refer to as a retreat, are part of our practitioner training program.

So we have a, a six-month practitioner training program focused on prep and integration coaching. We do an in-person intensive in Costa Rica as part of that, but we only have one high-dose psilocybin experience as part of that. We do a lower dose, like a high crew dose, and then take a day off for the temazcal, and then we go in and do a high-dose ceremony.

So there’s 48 hours usually between the, the dosage, and the high-dose ceremony you’re taking a much higher dose, like 10X the dose that we do in our high crew dose. I’ve done and facilitated a few retreats where we’ve had multiple experiences, and I think the key thing with psilocybin is you just need…

Excuse me. You just need 48 hours between the experiences. Because because they’re very active in the serotonergic system, typically the brain needs about 48 hours to reset tolerance for the serotonergic agonist, like psilocybin, LSD, mescaline et cetera, et cetera. It’s different than ayahuasca.

From what I understand with ayahuasca, you can drink ayahuasca, every night for four straight nights or five straight nights or six straight nights, and there’s not tolerance built up. If anything, you’re gonna become more and more sensitive to the medicine itself, from what I understand.

Sam Believ: Yeah, no, that’s exactly how it is. So even by giving same amount every ceremony, you’re basically increasing the dose. So you talk about microdosing and I know that’s your forte, and you’ve already mentioned a lot on it. What do you think about… what are the main differences between microdosing, let’s say, LSD versus microdosing psilocybin?

Paul F. Austin: Yeah. So I would say there’s like- There’s three core substances that people microdose. Mushrooms are by far the most popular one partly because of accessibility. It’s really easy to grow your own mushrooms, partly because most of the products online now are openly selling mushroom microdoses, and I think partly because people wanna work with a, quote-unquote, “plant.”

Even though mushrooms aren’t a plant, they’re a fungi, but they wanna work with a plant medicine because a lot of people who are microdosing are sick of the, quote-unquote, “pharmaceutical system,” right? So they don’t wanna be taking anything that’s synthetic or pharmaceutical. They like working with the mushroom.

It’s accessible, it’s easy to get. Now it’s legal in, in various jurisdictions. So mushrooms is by far the most common substance that people microdose. I would say 80 to 90% of people who are microdosing are doing so with mushrooms. Mushrooms tend to have a little more body load with them. They tend to be a little more focused on the emotional body.

It tends to be quite somatic. People notice that, for a lot of folks who microdose with mushrooms, it might bring up challenging emotions like sadness, grief or anger and frustration, so there tends to be a little bit more of a shadowy aspect to mushrooms, which if you understand how mushrooms grow, where they grow, what they do in nature, that makes sense.

Mushrooms typically decompose, right? They’re typically found in places that are moist and wet and dark, and so there’s a distinct relationship between moist and wet and dark and shadow work Right? Whereas if we look at LSD, LSD tends to be crystal. It’s a crystal. I say LSD is love in crystal form, right?

And it’s synthesized in a laboratory. It’s derived from ergot, which is a fungus that grows on rye bread, and LSD tends to be more dopaminergic, more dopamine. So LSD is more stimulating, it tends to be more cognitive it tends to be more up- from a mood perspective, more uplifting, maybe even more euphoric when compared to psilocybin.

But folks do notice that with LSD, sometimes it can make them a little manic, it can make them a little overstimulated, it can make it hard to sleep, it can make it at times hard to focus, even if they overdose on accident with a microdose. LSD for me is a favorite. And then we have Huachuma, cactus, San Pedro.

Huachuma’s somewhere in between. Huachuma’s still very active on the dopamine, like LSD, so people notice when they work with Huachuma, it’s stimulating, it helps with focus, attention, and motivation, but it tends to be more rooted and embodied than LSD. And so there are people notice that, “Oh, I can really feel myself, I can feel my body, I can feel my emotions.

I don’t feel like I’m just neck up.” And Huachuma has been the one that I’ve been exploring more and more. In fact, we have a microdosing training program now where we train people on our six-week protocol with Huachuma microdosing and nervous system practices. And so we’re actively training coaches and practitioners, “Look, if you wanna bring microdosing into your your practice, into the work that you do with clients, then this is really the protocol to go with.”

Because I find that, oh, one of the One of the critiques that I notice around, around microdosing is that, okay, if you just take this, it’s gonna address or fix certain issues. And one thing that I’ve been very adamant about for a very long time is that microdosing is not a magic pill that it does upregulate BDNF and neuroplasticity, that it can help manage inflammation and gut health, that it often leads to more energy and greater mood.

But so much of the long-term effect of microdosing is the work that’s done. It’s committing to meditation. It’s committing to breathwork. It’s committing to changing your diet, exercise, and sleep. It’s committing to changing or shifting something with support from the microdosing. And and so for folks who are just getting started, usually I say start with psilocybin mushrooms.

Once you’ve done an initial protocol with that, then maybe explore LSD or huachuma. And then I know beyond that, there are people who are microdosing with ayahuasca. There are people who micro- who microdose with just the vine of ayahuasca, which is an MAOI and an, and a, and an anxiolytic. There are

people who are microdosing with iboga more and more as well. That’s been something that’s talked about more often. I even know people who are microdosing 2C-B, which is in the phenethylamine class. It’s another substance that was invented by Sasha Shulgin in addition to MDMA. So they’ll microdose 2C-B, or people who are microdosing ketamine.

But usually what I teach to and focus on is psilocybin, LSD and

Sam Believ: huachuma. This episode is sponsored by La Wayra Ayahuasca Retreat. Most of La Wayra if you’ve been listening to this podcast for a while. Some of you might have already been to La Wayra before. For those who don’t know us yet, we started La Wayra four years ago.

At La Wayra, we combine authenticity, accessibility, and affordability. La Wayra is currently highest-rated ayahuasca retreat in South America with more than 700 five-star reviews and an average rating of five stars. If you come to La Wayra, you’ll experience powerful, authentic ceremonies led by our indigenous shaman, Fernando, in a very beautiful venue just one hour south of Medellín, Colombia.

We’re surrounded by nature and have comforts like hot water, Wi-Fi. At La Wayra, our team has guided more than 2,500 people through this life-changing transformation of ayahuasca experience. At the same time, we keep it very affordable. So whether you’re coming for healing, clarity, or a deeper connection to yourself, La Wayra is the best choice.

If it is your first time drinking ayahuasca, you will love our three-and-a-half-hour preparation course and integration support. All of that is included in price as well as pickup from Medellín, accommodation, and ayahuasca. Visit lawayra.com to book your retreat or learn more. La Wayra, connect, heal, grow.

L-A-W-A-Y-R-A.com What do you know about microdosing Ayahuasca, vine only specifically? ‘Cause I’m actually experimenting with with it recently. I just started making capsules of vine only, and I’m just giving it to people, and we’re trying to figure out what it does. For me personally, I notice that if I’m in a bad mood, it lifts my mood, like emotional support.

But how much do you know? Because I’m kinda trying to almost inve- in invent it, but maybe somebody’s invented it before, so any information would be welcome.

Paul F. Austin: I think it’s adaptogenic in some ways. So if you’re overstimulated, it’s probably gonna bring your nervous system back down to be a little more calm, or if you struggle with, or have a down mood, it might bring you back up.

So I think it has an adaptogenic quality to it. I think it also has a anxiolytic quality to it, so if someone is feeling quite anxious it can help them to come back to center. MAOIs are also psychiatric medications, right? You can be prescribed certain MAOIs and some people are prescribed MAOIs for depression, as an example.

So I think it’s no surprise that just the vine itself has certain properties. Now, what’s also interesting about just the vine is it has harmaline in it, and there’s been more and more research about the impact of harmaline on inflammation and gut health. So I think what we’re also probably, and what you may notice is if people have issues with gut health or they have issues with inflammation, taking just the vine can also be helpful at managing some of those problems and issues.

Sam Believ: Yeah. So I’m gonna show you my,

Paul F. Austin: Oh,

Sam Believ: nice … my new baby project. It’s called- Very cool … Only Vines.

Paul F. Austin: Nice.

Sam Believ: It’s a fun play on words. But it’s- How often do you take it? So I’ve personally noticed that if I take two capsules in the morning and two capsules in the evening of just pure Ayahuasca vine powder I feel like uplifting the energy and just better focus and better sleep.

It’s just kinda it’s so hard to explain. Because if I take more, then I start feeling heaviness in my body. Kinda when you take a full dose of Ayahuasca, the, the early onset, you feel kinda heavy. So I’m just right now I’m just experimenting. I gave it to maybe 10 people, and they’re trying and they’re sending me their reports, and I’m feeding it to AI, and I’m gonna figure out what it is.

So a little citizen science project. Nice. That’s very cool. So MAOIs were the original antidepressants, right? There was the… There was this tuberculosis drug that people were taking, and they noticed that it was improving their their mood. And it was, it contained MAOIs. But it’s a different kind of MAOI compared to Ayahuasca because it’s an MAOI that accumulates in your system.

And the most of the rules that are on internet about Ayahuasca, they’re based on that MAOI. Because the MAOI in Ayahuasca I’m not a scientist, but o- it’s of a different type, and it’s basically out of your system very quickly. But yeah, I think that probably MAOI and Ayahuasca, it’s basically if I would describe it, and of course I can’t, if I were ever to sell it, I can’t really tell it, but I would say it’s a natural antidepressant.

Interesting. What do you think? I know you talk about this a lot, but what, Let’s talk about psychedelics versus antidepressants.

Paul F. Austin: Yeah. Where do you wanna start?

Sam Believ: Just what’s better? Why, what’s the value of one versus another? Obviously without making any medical claims.

Paul F. Austin: Yeah, I went on a bit of a rampage on social maybe three, four, five months ago.

We’ve had a, we’ve had quite a bit of discussion on the podcast and through webinars that I’ve hosted. I’ve interviewed psychiatrists about this, I’ve interviewed neuroscientists about this, including Robin Carhart-Harris, who published a, a groundbreaking research paper comparing traditional antidepressants to psychedelic medicine, and describing some of the differences between the two.

The, the metaphor that I’ve landed on lately when talking about SSRIs is SSRIs are like a crutch for your mental health. Sometimes you break a leg and you need that crutch, but the whole point of the crutch is to get you walking again, right? To allow the leg to heal. You don’t wanna be using crutches for the rest of your life, and I think the problem, what’s incredibly problematic about SSRIs is most of the people who are prescribing them have no context on their ideal use.

So for example, my sister is on an SSRI. She’s been on an SSRI for over 10 years now. She was never told that these are really only meant to be used for three to six months. So if you look at all of the clinical research on SSRIs, it’s about their use for three to six months. Now you have people who are taking them for years, and when they try to get off, they have brain zaps, they have withdrawals, they have sexual dysfunction, right?

So there are all these negative impacts that accumulate over time when SSRIs are used for too long. So I think I’m a big fan of SSRIs as a crutch in, in a use of emergencies. I also fundamentally believe that psychedelic medicine could be just as effective as S- SSRIs, like ketamine has been shown to be incredibly helpful and effective for suicidality.

I’m still not convinced about this sort of pill that you need to take every day model. And, I’ve also been diving pretty deep into bioenergetics and mitochondrial health. I think the sort of cutting edge frontier of health and wellness is gonna be focused on does this positively or negatively impact the mitochondria?

And what we see with some early research on SSRIs is that it negatively impacts mitochondria, and so why would you wanna take something every day that’s harmful for your mitochondria? It’s silly. It’s totally silly. So- Psychedelics, on the other hand they’re used on an occasional basis. They’re shown to be pro-metabolic.

They’re shown to be anti-inflammatory. They’re shown… we’ve been using them for thousands and thousands of years, going back to my historical reference. There’s a frame that I often discuss or talk about called the Lindy effect, and the Lindy effect is a notion that the longer an idea or technology has been around, the longer it will be around.

In other words, the willingness of the human species to continue to utilize something is indicative of its utility. And so the very fact that we as a human species have been using psychedelics for thousands of years so is that they’re useful. They’re actually doing something for us that’s useful across generations.

Where with SSRIs, we’ve been using them for 40 years. 40 years, that’s like one, one-thousandth of the amount of time that we’ve been exposed to psychedelic substances. We still have no idea about the long-term implications of the mass use of SSRIs. And so I think what we’re gonna start to see and notice in the next decade is there’s gonna be a massive industry that starts to pop up to help people get off SSRI medications and onto psychedelic medicine.

I’ve already seen this where- Sure … 29 million people last year were prescribed SSRI medications in the United States. 29 million people. That’s nearly 10% of the population. I think up to 50 million people are on an SSRI at any point in time, right? The numbers are just totally insane.

Yeah … and most people don’t know around, they’re not informed about the potential sexual dysfunction. They’re not, m- informed about the negative impact on mitochondrial health. They’re not informed about the massive withdrawals that sometimes take place when they try to get off of them.

So I think we’re gonna need to figure out what are solutions to help people get off these SSRI medications and onto practices and maybe medicines that are much more sustainable and durable and don’t have the negative consequences.

Sam Believ: Yeah. The– I’ve heard stories of people that they come with a backache, and they are giving an antidepressant just in case.

And the way how medical professionals give them out like a candy is definitely very bad. And I think that, as you say, it’s a crutch, and if somebody’s openly suicidal and they need a quick short-term support, those are great, but then they need to come with instructions. Like, how are you gonna… You you– here you go.

Here’s your subscription for– prescription for three months, and here’s the instructions of how to get off them when you finish.” I think that’s the way it should be done. But of course it’s gonna take a long time to change, and there’s a lot of vested interest because there’s a lot of money in it.

It’s people taking a pill every day, so there’s money coming in to big corporations every month. I don’t blame them. It’s a– seems like a nice business. But yeah, I guess there’s there are better ways to do it. So this this wave of psychedelics, the third wave that you talk about, and obviously you focus a lot on education through your training program for facilitators and also for and also your podcast.

I would say probably the biggest difference in this wave is the presence of the education. Let’s talk about that. What is the importance of education and informing people before working with psychedelics?

Paul F. Austin: Yeah, what a lot of people don’t realize is that the internet exists because of LSD, when LSD was starting to be used in clinical trials at Stanford, there was a gentleman by the name of Ken Kesey, who wrote One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest, who was an early experimenter in those Stanford clinical trials, snuck out a bunch of acid and distributed it all over Palo Alto, which then became Silicon Valley.

And you look at people who were very involved, Steve Jobs is the most famous one, but there’s a lot of other people who were involved with the computer revolution and the internet revolution that were heavily influenced in their approach by the use of LSD. Stewart Brand is another really interesting guy who’s still alive today and has talked pretty openly about his own experiences with LSD and the computer and all that.

So I think that’s like the starting base, right? Because so much of the education that’s available today is done through the internet, whereas in the ’60s and ’70s and ’80s, the government could propagandize whatever they wanted to through the educational system. But today, there’s a lot more autonomy that people have over their capacity to discover what’s real and what’s not.

And so education, knowing, the difference between ketamine and MDMA, understanding that psychedelics, although they are Schedule I substances, are actually not addictive, I think is a huge part. Understanding that, psychedelics are very different than SSRIs in terms of how they interact with the brain and the impact that they have on people is an important one.

I think recognizing the value and utility of these indigenous practices, right? That we don’t just get too occupied with synthetics or modern medicine, but that we recognize that there’s a history there’s a context in which a lot of these plant medicines have come from, and that to stay in right relationship with them, there needs to be some level of reciprocity or relationship to where these medicines come from, which in most cases is Central and South America.

Not all cases, but in, in many cases is Central and South America. So I think just that, like- Basic level education, right? I call it psychedelic literacy or the skill of psychedelics. Just like everyone should learn how to cook their own eggs or, make their own toast, or everyone should learn, how to read and write as these basic skills, I think knowing the difference between a psychedelic and heroin is important.

Or I think knowing that psychedelics are medically useful is important. Or I think knowing that psychedelics have a long history of use in various indigenous communities around the globe is important. And as long as we can get most people there, recognizing the utility, understanding some of the research around it, I think that’s good.

I saw in a recent poll that Cal Berkeley had done that seven– over 70% of Americans now support legal psychedelic therapy, right? So we’re definitely at a point where there’s been a lot of media, there’s been a lot of attention around this. Colorado, Oregon, New Mexico have legalized psilocybin.

The FDA recently announced that they may approve synthetic psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression by the end of this year, right? So there’s a lot of momentum and movement. And education isn’t everything, right? Because after education comes providers, and I think that’s another key, key and important aspect is, okay, if you’re learning about this great, but who are you gonna go do this with?

In what context are you gonna do this? And which medicine are you going to use, and I think that’s then the next big phase of this sort of third wave of psychedelics. If the last ten years was really focused on education, which we seem to have won, I think it’s going quite well. I think the next ten years on how do you train up potentially thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of practitioners in how to work with psychedelics, because the ability to work with psychedelics is much different than standard CBT psychotherapy or, a 15-minute psychiatric appointment or you know, taking an SSRI every day and managing symptoms.

It’s a whole new landscape and a whole new ballgame, and most people don’t, themselves as practitioners, have the experience, know-how, and nervous system capacity to hold that for others.

Sam Believ: Yeah. Let’s talk about your own experiences with psychedelics. I think in one of the podcasts you said that your Ayahuasca helped you overcome weed addiction.

Can you talk to us about that and just maybe a- addiction in general?

Paul F. Austin: Yeah, there’s… what I love about psychedelics is they’re not really all that sticky, ayahuasca can be a little bit at times, but even then it’s not… I just, I don’t see people who have a, a propensity for addiction with Ayahuasca.

I think cannabis is problematic. I’m a big fan of legalizing cannabis. I’m a big fan of access to cannabis, but I don’t think I realized it could be as habit-producing as it has been for me. I go through phases. I have a hard time with moderation. I used to be able to moderate with it really well, but at this point I have a hard time with moderation, so I’m more of a no than I am a yes with cannabis, and it tends to really negatively impact my mood and sleep.

And so for the time being I’ve just said as much as possible no to cannabis. And what we’ve seen with Ayahuasca and ibogaine and mushrooms and, LSD even is that they can really interrupt these patterns, right? And so addiction oftentimes is getting into these ruts and getting into these, these patterns, and psychedelics can often come in and up come in and disrupt those patterns, and I think that’s also very useful to have.

So I’m a huge fan of psychedelics for addiction. I do think there needs to be external accountability. And, I think something that’s not talked about enough, although we are starting to see more and more conversation around it is the propensity for people to become psychologically dependent on psychedelics, right?

And you’ve probably seen this in sort of the broader Ayahuasca space. I’ll see this with sometimes with psychedelic, high-dose psychedelic work, although it tends to after a year or two it tends to taper off. But there are some people I know who are still drinking Ayahuasca, once or twice a month, maybe three times a month and not much has changed in their lives, so I think this really brings up a big and important question around the relational dynamic how we are really looking at this as an allyship, and how we’re really committing to doing the hard and courageous work after the fact to actually change the things that are happening in our lives on a day-to-day, week-to-week, month-to-month, year-to-year basis.

Sam Believ: Yeah, integration is very important to for people to actually apply the lessons. But with- I think with Ayahuasca, it’s tricky to abuse it because in my experience, I had a period of time in the very beginning of my Ayahuasca jealousy phase where I was doing it too often, and eventually Ayahuasca itself just told me “I gave you homework, you never did it,” and it just gave me a bad trip.

So I think it can be-

Paul F. Austin: Yeah.

Sam Believ: Okay … somewhat self self-guiding. But definitely relying on it, yeah, it– I think there are… people go through periods of time where sometimes where they rely on it too much. You talk about psychedelics also as a potential for, as a tool for improving leaders and leadership, and you call it CEO medicine.

Why? And also ’cause I’ve heard that some big companies or like funds that fund those startups they prohibit CEOs to take Ayahuasca because they, a lot of times they don’t wanna do that work anymore. So talk to us about that.

Paul F. Austin: Yeah, I think the context here is- You know, work has been stigmatized unfortunately, especially in, in this sort of late industrial capitalism.

People perceive work as a negative thing. They perceive work as harmful to the environment. They perceive work as something that is stress– only stressful. They perceive work that is something that is greedy or jealous. And so I think part of it is reclaiming the word vocation rather than work.

So what is it that we feel called to do and build and pursue? And my sense in what I’ve seen and noticed with a lot of people who, who do medicine work is medicine work tends to reorient our values and perspectives. And so a lot of people who go through with Ayahuasca work or mushroom work or whatever it is tend to align themselves with a true vocation and not just an occupation or, a company that is done for what I would call superficial gain.

And that could be– usually there are things related to ego, so status, achievement, money being liked feeling like you’re right, feeling like you have might. These are all things that one of my teachers, Eric Hoffman, warns against, right? These are sort of signs of ego myopia, wanting to be liked, wanting to be right, wanting to have might.

And what we see again and again with psychedelics is psychedelics tend to make the ego more porous. They tend to make the ego more spacious. They tend to make the ego more open we can then reorient towards wisdom, love, and power. And so I think the great work for a lot of leaders in business today is to reclaim business, not as something that is negatively– not as something that is harmful or negative for the broader environment, but business as something that actually helps the world regenerate.

And Dr. Bronner’s is a really good example of this. Dr. Bronner’s is a soap company. The friend that I just mentioned, Eric Koffman, he’s the chairman of the board at Dr. Bronner’s, and Dr. Bronner’s is a really good example of this. They make great soap. They pay their employees really well.

They have a regenerative ethos. And so my belief is that psychedelics as… ‘Cause that’s always been my focus as well, i’m a big fan of the medical use of psychedelics and the therapeutic use of psychedelics, but I’m a really big fan about, when we’re talking about this overlap of psychedelics and systems change, and how can the intentional use of psychedelics by the leaders and builders and creators of the world, how can that shift what it is that they’re choosing to build, lead, and create?

And I think for a lot of folks they’re, they, through high-dose psychedelic work, we come to realize that we are connected to everything around us. We come to realize that if that’s the case, we need to better steward and take care of the Earth and our communities, and we tend to reorient the work that we get to do or choose to do in the world around that.

And so that’s my kind of prayer or my hope, is that the widespread use of psychedelics, especially by leaders helps us to approach business as something that can actually regenerate our ecosystems rather than continue to extract value and resources from ecosystems and put them in share- shareholders’ pockets.

Sam Believ: Yeah. I think psychedelics definitely help to foster that sort of conscious entrepreneurship or just understand what your actions lead to down the line. So it’s definitely exciting to see what happens if more leaders take them. You said you were excited about 2026 and future just to come with this wave of psychedelics.

What are the things you’re personally most excited about?

Paul F. Austin: One thing I’ve been talking a lot about is this potential approval of psilocybin by the FDA. So many of us are aware that in 2024, MDMA-assisted therapy was rejected by the FDA for PTSD. It looks like psilocybin will be approved at the, by the end of 2026 for treatment-resistant depression, which is really exciting.

And then in 2027 looks to be, like there may be a couple other drugs that get approved, psychedelic medicine that, that gets approved for clinical issues. I’m really excited to see if there are any other states that pass legislation. So last year we saw New Mexico they were the third state.

There are several states that are in discussion right now around legislation for psychedelics, so it’ll be interesting to see if there are any other states that end up legalizing psychedelics. And I think, 2026 is just another year of building infrastructure, of education, of training practitioners, right?

So it’s just another year of showing up and doing the work. And so what we’re focused on at Third Wave and the Coaching Institute is our podcast and continuing to educate folks and have great guests on. Our training programs we have a couple new training programs that we’ll roll out this year for medical providers.

Right now we have our two core training programs, which I mentioned before, our microdosing practitioner certification program and our practitioner, our main practitioner certification program, which focuses on prep and integration. So continuing to focus on trainings continuing to focus on education, and then just supporting all the infrastructure development that’s going to be necessary for for the, the, the successful launch of the FDA-approved psychedelic medicine.

I think we’re all really excited about what that might entail. And yeah, so I’d say those are… Yeah, and then I actually have another book that I’m working on. So I have a book that’s coming out next year that I need to finish this year, and that book is on the value of exploration and the role that psychedelics play in facilitating creative expansion and neuroplasticity.

And and so that’s the that’s probably my main creative project that I’m gonna really gonna go deep on.

Sam Believ: Yeah, the future is bright for psychedelics, I believe. And thank you for the work you’re doing and spreading that message. Let’s start wrapping up. And any last things you wanna say to the audience, and also where they can find you, your books, and your training program?

Paul F. Austin: Yeah, so Mastering Microdosing is on Amazon. Thethirdwave.co is our main website, thethirdwave.co. We also have the Psychedelic Coaching Institute, which you can find out about more details around that on Third Wave. And then I’m on Instagram and X PaulAustin3w. I’m pretty active on social. So if you listen to this and you wanna reach out and say hi and ask a question, reach out over social.

And yeah, I just appreciate you creating this platform, Sam and having me on, and doing all the work that you’re doing with the Ayahuasca Podcast, and all the work that you’re doing at your retreat center in Colombia. It’s been fun to sit down and jam with you for an hour today.

Sam Believ: Thank you, Paul. I appreciate it. Guys, you’ve been listening to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, with your host, Sam Believ, and I’ll see you in the next episode.

Paul F. Austin: I hope you enjoyed this episode.

Sam Believ: If you’d like to support us and psychedelic renaissance at large, please follow us and leave us a wherever it is you’re listening.

Share this episode with someone who will benefit from this information. Nothing in this podcast is intended as medical advice, and it is for educational and entertainment purposes only. This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat. At LaWayra, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity.

LaWayra, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) sits down with Adam Butler — psychedelic philosopher, researcher, and author of Butler’s DMT Field Guide. Adam shares his transformation from addiction, depression, and a suicidal breaking point into a life built around self-knowledge, meditation, and consciousness exploration. We cover the differences between ayahuasca and smoked DMT, safety/containment, “midlife crisis” vs depression, entity/spiritual protection, and how to integrate extreme experiences into real-world change — plus a lighter look at creativity, leadership, and relationships.

Timestamps / Topics

• 00:01 – 00:50 Intro: Adam Butler, Butler’s DMT Field Guide, “DMT-saturated perspective”
• 00:55 – 03:27 Adam’s background: alcohol removal, depression, suicidal ideation, life “on paper” vs inner collapse; mushrooms as the start
• 03:28 – 06:12 The DMT “last resort” moment and first breakthrough: perspective shift, present-moment relief, not a magic pill but a turning point
• 06:12 – 07:55 Oliver update (LaWayra GM story) + Sam’s question: am I in a midlife crisis?
• 08:06 – 12:34 Midlife crisis vs depression: “indicator lights,” pressure buildup, avoiding explosion, alignment vs masking with work/alcohol/pills
• 12:34 – 17:11 What heals? neuroplasticity vs spiritual process, “instruction manual” feelings, vibration/hum, expanded senses, getting out of your own way
• 17:11 – 24:00 Smoked DMT vs ayahuasca: duration (~7–8 minutes), intensity, “no hangover,” multiple sessions in one sitting, pros/cons of each modality
• 24:00 – 30:41 Safety + spiritual protection: why containers matter, sitter/space-holding, intention/reverence, entity risks, disclaimers around solo use
• 30:41 – 36:48 Sam’s position: no gatekeeping, but sequence matters; risks of DIY ayahuasca; responsibility to prevent backlash in the “renaissance”
• 36:48 – 40:44 Adam agrees: cautious approach, book as conversation starter, recent entity-heavy session = why first-timers shouldn’t go alone
• 40:44 – 46:33 Fun/esoteric side: “recognition” of DMT, jester/entities, body “diagnostic,” future-self feeling, being “moved” to another space
• 46:33 – 52:08 Integration: inner compass + accountability, practices that sustain alignment, psychedelics not for everyone, nature retreats as medicine too
• 52:08 – 55:00 Beyond therapy: creativity, science, politics/leadership, relationships + intimacy (with care), enjoying being human
• 55:00 – 56:36 Where to find Adam: socials + free PDF offer; closing

  If you got value from this conversation with Adam Butler, please share it with one person who needs to hear it. And if you haven’t already, subscribe / follow the show so you don’t miss the next episode.

  Where to find the guest (Adam Butler)

  • Instagram / social handle: @booksbyadambutler (this is his main handle across most platforms)
  • Email (for a free PDF copy of his book): bo***************@***il.com
  • Book: Butler’s DMT Field Guide (Adam also shares access directly via email)

Transcript

Sam Believ: You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast.com.

Adam Butler: In my case, I needed to dissolve pretty much everything in my life and then move forward. But the alternative is you either explode, do drastic things like I was gonna do, or you just, for 20 years, you’re a miserable person. You have a horrible relationship. Now, I also on paper, had everything going for me.

I had the high paying jobs, I had multiple houses. I had fancy sports cars. I had beautiful women, but I had so much chatter and negative stuff going on in my own brain. I started with shrooms and I was getting really good therapy and really good inner reflections and that deep shadow work. But it really wasn’t until DMT that I would say I had that life-changing epiphany.

DMT really had saved my life and had that transformative effect, whether it be a DNA download or an upgrade, whatever it was. But it was this instantaneous conveyance of information that completely changed the perspective of, you can’t run from your psyche. I was really forced to shine that proverbial mirror up to myself.

You’re more than your physical body and that you have more than your five senses.

Sam Believ: Hi, guys, and welcome to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, with you, the host, Sam Belyev, and today I’m having a conversation with Adam Butler. Adam is a psychedelic philosopher, researcher, and the author of Butler’s DMT Field Guide. Known for his DMT-saturated perspective, Adam has explored the medicine hundreds of times to bridge the gap between clinical science and real-world experience.

After a transformational personal journey overcoming addiction and mental health struggles, he now focuses on the intersection of neuroplasticity, deep meditation, and human potential. Through his writing and advocacy, Adam provides practical guidance for safe exploration, helping others navigate the extreme limits of consciousness to achieve profound self-awareness and healing.

This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat. At LaWayra, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity. LaWayra, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you. Adam, welcome to the show.

Adam Butler: Thank you for having me. I’m excited to have this conversation for an assortment of reasons.

Sam Believ: Adam I know a little bit about your story, and specifically about how DMT played a role in saving your life. So te- tell us the story of your transformation and what brought you to this line of work.

Adam Butler: So I guess my, my big transformation and really my introduction to psychedelics happened around age 40.

So I’m 45 years old now, so I’m kinda f- four or five years into this journey of first removing alcohol from my life, and I know you’ve talked about that in, in a prior episode, but that was a, a major aspect of my personal journey, which was just, having that self-awareness and understanding that needed to be, taken out of my life.

But I started my exploration with shrooms, and at around 40 years old, like I mentioned, I hadn’t experienced psychedelics for probably about a 20-year break. I had done some LSD and shrooms in college, but prior to that they really weren’t even on my radar. But I was going through a whole assortment of things and, we can get into the specifics of it, and I kinda go over some of the bullet points in my book.

But similar to a lot of the people that come to you, and it sounds like, a little bit of your origin story and y- your buddy Oliver that we mentioned, in, in your beginning podcast, that I was in a really dark, depressive funk. And not to put it lightly, I was suicidal and I was really at a dark place.

Now, I also on paper had everything going for me. I had the high-paying jobs. I had multiple houses. I had fancy sports cars. I had beautiful women. Anything that, that a, a man typically would want. But I was just… I had so much chatter and negative stuff going on in my own brain, and I had multiple ha- events happen in my life over, a sh- relatively short period of time where I lost several relationships I lost several jobs.

I got a restraining order. I threatened to kill a person. That it got really bad, and all of this kinda culminated in me needing to do a, a deep self-reflective journey, and I started with shrooms. And I got… I started that journey because I was hearing a lot about the therapeutic value that other people are experiencing, and I decided to go that route first, and I was getting really good therapy and really good inner reflections and that deep shadow work.

But it really wasn’t until DMT that I would say I had that life-changing epiphany

Sam Believ: Nice home. You tell a story about having DMT and then if you don’t go, if the DMT wouldn’t work, you were planning to go to the forest and not come back, right?

Adam Butler: Yeah. And I’m, I’m– I try to say that in a colorful/poetic way, but there’s really no way to mask how dark and what a shitty place I was in.

And, in retrospect, it was really all to my own making, and I can say now several years into this journey and having some hindsight into it I really was my own worst enemy. I was the, the worst thing going on in my life. And it wasn’t so much even alcohol or my relationship with money or with, and relationships with women.

It was really just my lack of self-knowledge, my lack of self-love, my lack of understanding and, really I was looking for external solutions to all my internal problems and it was driving me nuts. And really the– and not just necessarily say that they were two complete different categories between the shrooms and the DMT, but I think with shrooms, the, the big takeaway for me was, and some of them I went pretty deep, pushing seven, eight grams and, going and doing several doses within those sessions.

And so you can’t run from your psyche. You can’t run from the scars that you need to address. And I was really forced to shine that proverbial mirror up to myself, which helped take ownership of where I was and what my issues were. But I really had no ability then to move forward with a game plan.

And I think the similar story to literally everybody that I’ve talked to that have– that’s come across DMT or Ayahuasca is that it got put into their lap, that it got brought into their life synchronicity, synchronistically-wise, multiple times. And that happened to me and it, it happened so that a, a friend of mine offered it to me and, that’s when I had that, that incredible experience that first day.

And again, I’ll be happy to go over the details of it, but it ended with multiple sessions over the course of about an hour and a half that ended with me having just a completely different perspective shift and an understanding of myself relative to time that allowed me to not have the stress and anxiety about worrying about past or future events, and I could really just live here now.

And like I said, that was years ago, and now it’s not that was a magic pill and everything in my life is perfect and fixed. Just the opposite. It’s trying to spotlight on everything that was going on. But now I can move forward in a way that is beneficial to myself not detrimental.

Sam Believ: I’m happy it worked for you and it found you where it needed to find you. And I’m also… it’s funny that you in preparation for this podcast, you went to the very first episodes, which were filmed long time ago with me and Oliver. And back then I had only knew Oliver for a few days.

He came to the retreat, and I just liked the way he spoke about things. He was very eloquent. And currently at the moment, he’s actually a general manager of LaWayra. He came back several times to volunteer and then about six months ago he joined us as as a general manager. He unfortunately had to leave because of some visa and tax issues, so he’s kinda now working remotely.

But that, that story had the happy ending. And I wanted to do an episode 100 podcast with him kinda saying “Look how… where we started and where we are now.” But he was away, so I kinda… I think we’re at episode 110 or something like that now. But just so you know the… what was the outcome of the story.

But- I wanna talk about midlife crisis because I’m 37 years old now, soon to be 38, and recently, specifically, a lot of things in my life started falling apart and I started reading Dante’s Divine Comedy, and there it’s a journey about a midlife crisis person. A midlife crisis apparently happens on average somewhere between 35 and 45.

So I’m wondering if I’m in it or it’s just something similar. But j- just tell us about it, tell us for people that are listening that might, might be going through something similar how to spot it. What’s… what is a midlife crisis and what is just a normal depression or something?

Adam Butler: I’m glad you, you ended it with that question of how to spot it because listening to that conversation with you and Oliver years ago you guys were all hitting on it and I wrote down some of the things that he said about how he got brought to this and brought to you and again, many people because of pain, because of sickness, because of a, a feeling of meaninglessness.

And in hindsight, and again, not that I’m some enlightened soul and that I’ve figured this all out, but I can say now that living in a way that is completely opposite to the way I used to be, and I say, very happily and confidently that I’m very comfortable in my own skin and that I live my, my days now full of joy and contentment.

And I guess how do you spot it when things aren’t going right is that you have all these indicator lights and you have all of these stressors that most people think of as annoyances, but they’re really your own physical body or your own spiritual body or your own mental anguish telling you like, “Hey, you need to listen to me.”

And sometimes I use the analogy of like indicator lights on an automobile where they’re telling you when the oil’s low or when the, when it’s too hot or when the, oil… or excuse me, the tire pressure’s too low. And I think life gives people those indicator lights, but in society, the easy thing to do, or not easy, but what most people do is mask it with alcohol like I did, or take a bunch of prescription pills, or just work 70, 80 hours a week.

Or, if you’re making five grand a week, it’s okay. Or you know what? You have five or six kids, so of course you don’t have time to address these. And I think that happens for year after year, and it comes to a point where just people can’t take it anymore.

And I guess my kind of advice to people is you don’t have to, let it get to that pressure point where you lose your job, you lose your wife you piss off your kids so that way they no longer talk to you. Or unfortunately, like myself and so many middle-aged men they think that suicide’s the best answer.

And I think there are multiple ways that you can use that pressure relief valve to release that pressure before it gets to that level. Now that being said, I think It, it’s not just a matter of relieving the pressure so you don’t explode, or, “Hey, don’t just, don’t just drink alcohol like I did and, you have to addre- address these issues.”

It’s really a matter of using that to a- addre- address what you’re doing in life and how you’re aligned. And a lot of people don’t necessarily know what path they need to take, but I think if they follow their gut and their intuition, they know when things feel good and feel right, and when things feel aligned.

And, there’s some kind of woo-woo corny ways of wording it good vibes or good energy or… But people feel it, and people feel it within themselves. And so kinda I guess the long, rambling answer is just that everybody will know some of the things that they need to address.

But the hard thing is that sometimes that may mean you need to get a divorce, or you need to quit your job, or you need to move to Colombia and start an ayahuasca retreat. Or, like in my case, I needed to dissolve pretty much everything in my, my life and then move forward, and that can be very challenging for a lot of people.

But the alternative is you either explode and do drastic things like I was gonna do, or you just, for 20 years you’re a miserable person. You have a horrible relationship. You live in a loveless, sexless marriage. You work at a job you hate, and you just live a shitty existence as opposed to living an existence that’s aligned with your purpose and full of contentment and joy.

And I think that’s… And everything that I’ve kinda heard you and your guests talk about, y- not once have anybody really saying that, “Hey, I’ve figured the perfect path and this is the way, and this is… You have to do it exactly like me.” It’s kinda just the opposite. We’re all gonna find our own way, and we’re all gonna figure out what’s works for us, and that’s kinda the beauty of this path, is that there’s multiple ways to kinda unlock the human potential and unclog that, that funk.

But ideally you do it before you explode like I do.

Sam Believ: Yeah. First of all, congratulations on finding the way out and not taking the easy way out in the in air quotes. I don’t think it’s easy karmically speaking, but yeah, some, some people that end up killing themselves in that kind of crisis.

Yeah for those who might have suicidal ideation I just highly recommend before you do it, try ayahuasca. ‘Cause we had we had so many people that would buy a one-way ticket to LaWayra and, Then after, after going through this experience telling us like, “Yeah, I was openly suicidal,” and and now I’m like, “I can’t even fathom the idea of it.”

‘Cause it just shows you very quickly how beautiful it is to be alive. And but while you’re in that space, it’s so hard to change the way of thinking. That’s where I think psychedelics come in because it’s such a strong intervention. So let’s talk about that. You you’re in a very bad place and you engage with mushrooms and then DMT and it helped you come out of that funk as you say.

What is… what do you think is the mechanism of that healing? Is it something about neuroplasticity or is it something more of a spiritual process? Like what do you think helped you there?

Adam Butler: Oh, that’s complex answers to that, the very complex question. And I think it’s an assortment of things. So I think first, the psychological mirror that gets held up w- in any type of psychedelic exploration, and I think for me it was shrooms. Ayahuasca, and I’ve done ayahuasca several times, so I know it’s similar to that, where that’s a really reflective inner journey where you’re forced to go through things that you may have tried to run from in the past.

So that there is a psychological aspect to it. But I think there certainly is a, a physical and physiological aspect of it, to it as well. And ultimately, that’s what really attracted me to DMT in particular, was that it is naturally produced in our own bodies and, the, the term being endogenous.

And that’s what a lot of the, the original studies, why they were interested in it, because it does seem that this molecule does, it’s metabolized differently and it does do something that, that is, is clearly profound. And To your point I think it allows for not only neuroplasticity and, I’m not a doctor, I don’t know necessarily how to prove these things and there’s a lot of words whether it be neuroplasticity, neurogenesis, where you’re actually, growing new neural synaptic connections, whether you’re removing blockages.

I u- use the analogy all the time of kind of removing plaque and somehow, some way just things get removed out. But a- as you well know the DMT experience is very visceral, and it’s all about vibration, and it’s all about this hum in this energetic field and this kind of expansion of your natural five human senses.

And when your body gets into that flow state and into that connective state, and you’re just in that beautiful, blissed-out, hummed, literally vibrating state th- there’s so much that, that can be exposed and shown about how your body can really work. And you mentioned again in that ear- that earlier interview that it, you felt as though it gave you an instructional book on how to work your body.

And those are some of the things where I’ve had several experiences where you feel like you, you really do learn how your human body is supposed to function, and not only how you think it should function with the normal stuff like breathing and blood flow and whatever the normal stuff, but you realize that you have so many more expanded abilities and so many more expanded whatever potential, and that you can connect to energetic fields and vibratory information in so many more ways than just your normal five senses.

So when you allow yourself to do that I think with the proper intention it can only be an expansive experience, which hopefully would allow for growth, which al- which allowed for me to stop banging my head against the wall and just stop being an asshole. For me, it was really that simple.

Just stop being a jerk, stop being mean to yourself and to other people and get out of your own way. But unfortunately, that seems to be a really common blockage for a lot of people.

Sam Believ: So I’ve I’ve never tried DMT in like a DMT pad or smoking DMT kind of way. I’ve only engaged with DMT through, through Ayahuasca.

So the obviously once again we’re not recommending anything to anyone that’s everyone’s an adult. So talk to us about how, what is that experience? And I know it lasts a little shorter. What do you feel, see? And talk to us about how, what’s, what are the main differences between Ayahuasca experience and the pure DMT experience?

Adam Butler: And I’m assuming your audience is gonna be a little more learned when it comes to this, this space and this topic, but, I can’t tell you how surprised I am w- with how, not necessarily naive, ’cause that implies a, a, a kind of like ignorance, but a lot of people just have no understanding of DMT.

Is it Ayahuasca? Is it not Ayahuasca? Is it do you drink it? Do you smoke it? And I think part of the conversation, and that’s why I appreciate your podcast and ultimately why I reached out to you to ultimately, be asked to share my story with you, is because I think it’s important to talk about the differences.

Because again, psychedelics are not for everybody. DMT is definitely not for everybody, and, depending on who you are, Ayahuasca may be the right way or it may not be, and smokable DMT may be or may not be, and I think it’s important for people to have the information. I really appreciate that, that conversation.

As you mentioned, DMT is the active ingredient in Ayahuasca combined with another bind the MAOI that allows your body to metabolize it in a prolonged period. I think the– So I guess the big difference is, you drink or ingest Ayahuasca. With an NDMT, you’re smoking the, the crystal straight up or you’re putting it into a, a, a, a tobacco pipe and you’re inhaling it like that.

And I think there are pros and cons to both modalities and both experiences. As you mentioned, though, when you smoke DMT the experience typically lasts about seven or eight minutes, and it’s extremely intense and, depending on how m- how many hits you take, you can go f- a full breakthrough experience, a full blast-off, but it really is less than 10 minutes, and then you come back and there’s no hangover, there’s no re- residual feeling.

There’s no, your body really does absorb it, and I think it is because it is endogenous and it’s not some foreign substance. But you have this, this ability to go extremely deep and to see. And we could spend hours and hours talking about what in these experiences, but, you, you– the person, for the first time, to touch that, to tap that, to see that, to have, to experience what it’s like to have the, the veil removed and to, to connect with source and all of these amazing things that people talk about experiencing, but then to come back, to be safe once again with no hangover.

And in my particular case- I did about seven or eight sessions the first day that I was exposed to it, and th- there’s a couple points, I think, along that path that, that are potentially valuable for somebody that’s looking to potentially get into this. So the, the first the first hit that I took, it just really felt– and it tasted natural.

It felt innate. As much as your body starts vibrating and humming, and as much as there’s a lot of weird sights and sounds and instantly your body starts responding to it, but it wasn’t fearful. It wasn’t frightful. It wasn’t like I was being poisoned. It really felt like I was going back to a more natural state, and that first kinda experience was it, with it.

There wasn’t any entities. There wasn’t any profound breakthroughs. It really was just, “All right, cool. This feels really nice. There’s this vibratory hum,” and your body can obviously get hypersensitive. But it wasn’t until I pushed it several sessions until that, that kinda last breakthrough session that I did kinda have a conveyance of information, and it was more than just the colorful sights and sounds.

And that’s, that’s when I say that DMT really had– that it saved my life and had that transformative effect because– A- and again, people talk about it, to try to talk about whether it be a DNA download or an upgrade or a, how- whatever it was, but it was this instantaneous conveyance of information that completely changed the perspective of my life that I needed changing.

And the, I guess the, the beauty of all of that is that you can have– I had seven or eight really deep psychedelic sessions in the matter of two hours in one day and this is where I’d like to kinda, talk about the differences and how there, there are different, the pros and cons and value to each kind of modality.

But in my particular case, I needed that blasting. If I didn’t have the breakthrough that I had, I was, like I said, gonna– I was– That was gonna be my last day on this planet, so I needed that shakeup. And it– and I hope people aren’t as in deep of a place as I was, but the truth was is that’s what I needed to have happen.

But so I guess, there there’s the beauty of having that s-seven-minute session by yourself when you need it. But then I also can really appreciate the several weeks with a group of 20 people where you can have that kind of community effect and all of the things that you’re building and sharing and doing.

I’ve also experienced in other ways too. I think there’s a, a combination there, but for some people, one of– maybe it’s more accessible to do what I’m doing. For some people it may be more accessible to do what you’re doing. But I think ultimately what I’m trying to do is just share the story that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, that there are ways of gaining access to this.

And again, as much beauty as there is in the retreats, and I’ve done the retreats and I have several booked not Ayahuasca retreats, but other, meditation retreats. But for some people, they may not have the money or the time or the passport or the ability to do that, where, in my book I have recipes about making their own, not only their own DMT, but I have Ayahuasca recipes and what I call DMT brew. Because, as traditional Ayahuasca really is typically two ingredients, where you can make a, a DMT brew with any DMT-based plant and any, any MAOI. And I talk about basically just saying that this doesn’t have to necessarily be something that’s either kept in the closets or held out in the jungles, that it can be with reverence and respect brought back into people’s lives.

Sam Believ: Okay.

Adam Butler: Knowing that’s a dangerous and, and-

Sam Believ: Yeah. So- …

Adam Butler: narrow path to walk, and that it’s,

Sam Believ: again, not for everybody. Yeah, but the, the disclaimer I def-I don’t recommend doing Ayahuasca without a shaman. I don’t know much about DMT. I do know quite a bit about Ayahuasca. And whatever, whatever psychedelics you choose to engage with, just make sure you have safe, very safe container, and don’t do it by yourself.

And yeah, I, Yeah, I don’t recommend, definitely with Ayahuasca, don’t do it, don’t do it by yourself, because I’ve seen things where if there was no container and there was no shaman, there would’ve been negative consequences. But once again I don’t know how similar or different DMT is. So talk to us about if someone engages with DMT in, let’s say- they do it by themselves which I think is not good.

At least have a friend or someone, because any psychedelic experience, right? Just from the point of view of losing control and maybe, jumping off a balcony or something like that, just like a very basic period of time where you’re unable to protect yourself from external things. What do you think about the sort of more esoteric things like, the reason in the traditionally in the ceremony there is a shaman is because they protect the space from entities, energies, and they help not just from the point of view of physical safety, but also spiritual safety. What should people do to protect themselves spiritually, like, when they engage with these realms?

Because obviously those, those realms there, they’re not empty, and the things that exist there they’re not always helpful. Sometimes they’re might be neutral, might be negative. So is there any- anything in your book that you tell people about this?

Adam Butler: So yeah, and that, that first day that I did push DMT pretty far I did have my– one of my, and I consider him my best friend, my brother, who was there, and he did hold that safe space for me.

And being respectful of the term shaman, obviously that, that’s a, something that is beyond what typically people can just say they can become. But my friend really what he did for me was just hold that space, give me… And he didn’t– It wasn’t a matter of, “Hey, what did you see?

And let’s try to integrate what you learned, and tell me what you saw.” It really was just knowing that he was there with the intention of protecting me, of keeping me safe of really making me feel comfortable. And I would say n- 99% of my psychedelic experiences, I do have somebody there with me.

And a lot of the times it’s just my girlfriend and I, and we’ve– we have become that safe space for one another, and we’ve go through the routine and go through the intention of going through being that for one another. And and I do– Actually, before I get onto some of my own practices, I just recently had another really good psychedelic experience that was, maybe my first kind of like retreat-like setting where I did have a husband and wife team that was there to hold space to, to, basically set the, not only the environment, but really be there to guide my soul and to help with the experience.

And as well-versed as I am in my psychedelic adventures they taught me so much and shared so much with me, and it was so beneficial to me that I have a, a whole new appreciation and understanding of what it means to hold space for one another and how powerfully grounding and helpful that is.

And that, that’s only something new that’s been exposed to me in the last few weeks. And I say that with appreciation for what it sounds like you’re doing, that you’re really allowing this, this safe environment for people to explore this. But yes, and I agree with your point, ideally find somebody that you can feel safe with.

And again, it’s not there to be a therapist or that you need some big tough guy to physically fight off demons. It’s just, it is nice to have somebody there that has your best interest, in mind around you. And then for me personally I really just make sure I get into that, that sense of gratitude and thankfulness certainly respect and reverence.

And with each session, I typically try to have some sort of why am I doing it? And sometimes it may be just to go in and give respect and reverence. Sometimes it may be for can I have, some creative infl- input to get into a flow state. Sometimes it may be can I get advice for my next path or whatever it may be.

But I’m never doing it just because I’m, it’s– I’m never doing it really in a recreational party setting. Every time that I’m exploring psychedelics, it’s with the intent of expanding my consciousness, with learning more about myself, and always giving respect to that, to the medicine and to the molecule.

Because I think that’s one thing that I definitely wanna convey and that there may be listeners that will, would maybe be like if it doesn’t have the ceremony and the ritual that, that you provide, or that it doesn’t have the generational shaman history that you have, and that it’s not the truly what you’re providing, plants from that area pr- made by a shaman,” and that I’m potentially saying, “You can do this in your bedroom and you don’t need the shaman.”

And I’m– I, I don’t wanna say it like that because I do have… You need all of those things. You need to try to somehow replicate the intention that you guys are providing, and ultimately I know that we or I will fall short. You know what I mean? That there, there’s no way that I’d be able to provide with one person the ceremonial ritual aspect of a group of 25 people being served by a, a shaman who’s been doing that for his entire life.

Sam Believ: But

Adam Butler: what you can do is try to try to protect yourself as best

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Adam Butler: I have not. No. No. White people that have been trained by Ind- Indigenous shaman but not No, and because honestly, so I’m 45 years old. The, up until a few years ago, this was so far removed from anything in my life. I- it was just rat race, make money, have material we- wealth, gain all the things, and it really wasn’t until a few years ago that I started exploring all this.

So I have and I try to convey this when I speak about it. I have full humility and I know that I don’t have all the answers, and that I know I’m kinda learning along the journey. But I do feel like at this point there are valuable data points for me to share with people, and it seems to be aligned with what a lot of people are coming out of this story and narrative with is, that the answer’s within, that we can all find it on our own journey, that it’s not gonna be easy, and that ultimately these, these plant-based medicines, if done properly, can be a catalyst to really set off some transformational change.

And-

Sam Believ: So-

Adam Butler: That’s… Yeah …

Sam Believ: I see what you’re saying, and I agree largely. I I definitely invite you to come to La Wayra to try an indigenous container, just out of curiosity, just to once again widen your scope. And I am definitely not, I d- oh, I don’t like the, the gatekeeping or censorship of certain things, but at the same time, I want to just tell my opinion about more psychonaut way of doing things.

So here’s what I believe. Sometime in the past, there were people that discovered psychedelics, and they… There was a first person that took psychedelics without a shaman. That’s just how it must have happened historically, and it’s totally okay, like citizen science, finding out the way to work with those substances yourself.

Obviously, like if you can do it legally and responsibly, and eventually you will get to the point where you will… If you work with those substances, you kinda will step on a shamanistic path. It’s inevitable because those medicines will teach you that. There is merit to both views. Obviously, as you say, let’s say somebody can’t…

They can’t come to a retreat and container with the shaman, and all they have accessible is a DMT pan and a friend to sit there with them. If they’re in a really bad position, nobody should tell them not to do it. But if they’re… If people do have a choice and options I would say leaving those more psychonaut things just slightly later in your journey when you already have experienced the plant medicines or psychedelics in a container so that you know better how to do it, and you don’t like, freak out.

Because if you’re experiencing that for the first time, or you never felt it before and you’re in an unsafe place, and no- there’s nobody there to support you, it just can be very challenging. So I would say I see a lot of merit in, in, in psychonaut’s work, and I’ve interviewed a few psychonauts, like people that took 30 grams of mushrooms, and it’s it’s a sort of more fun, more adventurous, more like Wild West side of psychedelics. But for people like specifically looking for healing, just there must be sequence to that. Because with like obviously you have a certain information and the sample size of people you work with and yourself, but like here we’ve had close to now probably 3,000 people that came through our doors and had different processes.

Wow. And I can see what can happen when someone take too much medicine and might need help with therapy or- deeper sort of s- more esoterical like entities and things that need protection or removal or deeper understanding. So I just wanna make sure that people walk away from this episode with curiosity, but also like reverence and care.

Because kinda what happened in the previous psychedelic renaissance with Tim Leary and LSD is it was taken too quick and too free, and then it resulted in society reacting in a bad way, and then we kinda, we were sent back in space. So I just hope that people that do engage with those substances, they do it in a very gradual way.

And if reading your book is one of the ways of doing it, but DMT obviously is not a tr- traditional plant medicine. But when it comes to Ayahuasca, like and seeing so many different traditions and having more than hundred experiences myself I just don’t like the idea of people cooking their own Ayahuasca and doing it in their basement because of knowing how many Po- potential dangerous things there might be in it.

From just a simple thing of somebody drinking ayahuasca, lying on their back, vomiting and drowning in their own vomit just because they don’t have people around them to protect them. It’s a– Those are extremely powerful tools, and I understand that if your choice is suicide, death, or doing it by yourself or without the container, yes.

But if it’s, if you have time and space, definitely get experience first with someone, and then eventually you get to the point where, like with ayahuascas eventually you get to the point where a shaman will tell you’re ready to drink by yourself or even you’re ready to serve it to other people.

That’s what I… Just a disclaimer, because I don’t wanna say what you say is wrong or I disagree completely, but at the same time kind of being a bit more responsible with the information we put out there.

Adam Butler: So I actually agree with everything you s- you say. And I agree that if people– This isn’t something to make a rash decision.

It’s not something that you just jump into. A- and if you have the ability to plan and to have the support, I really agree with you. And I actually just personally had an experience the other day that kind of con- confirms this where– So ac- actually, I don’t wanna just jump to that because I don’t wanna just pass over what you said.

And that, that’s why I’m– I wanna have conversations like this because I don’t have the answers on how I present this information in the best way. I know I’m presenting potentially recipes that, that need respect and reverence, and knowing that they– there is potential for abuse, and that these aren’t something that everybody should have access to.

And again, I don’t pretend to say that I have all of the, the answers to that. What I’m trying to do ultimately by having conversations with people like you and, all the people that have been there and done that and walked that same path is, yeah, how do we navigate this conversation where we can approach it with more information, more humility, more openness but try to remove some of the taboo and stigma to it?

But I mirror that. So if you can– And even before I got into the DMT, so again, I was doing shrooms for several months. I read as many books as I could. I listened to as many podcasts as I could. I tried to educate myself as much as I could to feel at least somewhat comfortable. So it, it’s not something that you just jump into.

And by all means try to get that support staff, try to reach out and- U- ultimately, yeah, if you can reach out to people like you that, that are able to provide that support. The story, I guess I just went really deep the other day, and now I’ve done it hundreds of times. I’m very comfortable with some of the, the extreme experiences.

But ultimately, I had one that had some kind of entity interactions that were really not scary because I’ve experienced those things before. But for the person, if that would’ve been their first experience and if they would’ve been alone, it would’ve been horrendous. They would’ve been a, that would’ve been a horrible introduction to DMT and it would’ve not helped them, I don’t think.

So- to your point it’s not something that I think anybody should just go make and grab and start ripping it in their own house, and that, that’s not necessarily what I’m suggesting people do. I guess it, it’s more just if this book can be the beginning of a conversation, if this can get piquing interest, if this can start an intellectual curiosity, if this can then bring you to, more of the refined literature like the Rick Strassman and more some of the, the more academic studies out there, and then maybe ultimately to the people like you that have been doing this now.

Like you said, for you to say that you served thousands of people, that’s fucking amazing, man. Congratulations and thank you for… Because without even hearing that the stories of people leaving your place, like I, I guarantee you, you’ve truly saved lives, which is exactly why you’re doing what you’re doing and ultimately why I’m trying to share my message.

But knowing that there is, yeah, this very delicate balance of life and death on the line of how do we talk about these subjects. But yeah I don’t wanna say approach this with an absence of caution and just go full bore psychonaut mode and just try everything. I n- but I do also wanna maybe say that, like I, I went to the Monroe Institute for over for, it was a week’s stay to do kinda their meditation technology.

I have a darkness retreat booked next month where it’s gonna be four days in, in full darkness. I am doing other modalities to try to get a better understanding of where I’m at, but yeah, to your point it’s not for the faint of heart, and it does take some practice and requirement and help and support.

Sam Believ: Yeah. I think the, the word psychonaut describes it itself. It’s s- like astronaut. It’s like you, you’re going to an un- unknown, to certain kinda adventurous spirit, and I guess people who do go that psychonaut route they’re open for for the difficult and dangerous things that also lie in their way.

But let’s now with the, with that sort of more serious things out of the way with disclaimer and trying to do our best, making sure people understand how dangerous it can be, let’s talk about more fun side of it. What are the sort of more interesting, more crazy esoteric things you’ve encountered through DMT?

‘Cause I know you speak about things such as like remote viewing, holographic matrix, toroidal fields, all those things. Let’s talk about that.

Adam Butler: Yeah, so I’ve got, hand- handfuls of really colorful, exciting stories. But I think b- for– to paint the picture overall how it could really help people you can imagine what your body could be like if it, if all of that plaque is removed, and that you know that you’re more than your physical body, and that you have more than your five senses, and that you’ve been shown, like you said, you’ve been given a guidebook or handbook on how to use it.

You can imagine just how amazing w- everyday walking life can be. So beyond even all of the, the crazy psychedelic experiences, I think the point of going to these psychedelic realms and having these experiences is to try to, come back and integrate it into everyday life, where you can see the, the beautiful in the mundane, so to speak.

And that’s… The– as, as much as I love going into these crazy psychedelic spaces, I guess it’s really more how my body has been refined when I’m not in the psychedelic space to still see the expansiveness of that kind of realm. But I guess maybe some of the, the highlighted interactions would be, again, that, that first day the first session when I instantly ingested it for the first time there was an instant recognition that I had tasted this and smelled it and felt it before, and it brought me back instantly to when I was a, an adolescent, you know, I think probably around 10 years old, and it just was a, a very vivid feeling of, “Wow, this has been in my body before.”

So that is just weird relative to any other psychedelic I’ve done. Typically, when you’re doing shrooms, it’s like, “Oh, fuck, the poison’s kicking in,” or LSD, you know something’s happening that, that is foreign to your body. But this, that just recognition that this is normal, natural, and don’t be scared, that was surprising because as, I heard about how intense it was, and it is intense, but it wasn’t– it was comforting in a way as well.

The end of that first day was when I had that epiphany download, which, again, to have something shift a stubborn 40-year-old guy who was set in his ways to instantly come out of it with a perspective shift, that physiological change was, was– that set the cascade of being open to then the further exploration.

I guess some of the, the cool things– So I’ve had all the, entity interactions with the cool kind of jester-y fun beings that are there to play and show you around. Those are really fantastic. But I think the, the most memorable ones are the ones that show you, like it sounds like you had, where they’re showing you how to operate your human body to its fullest potential.

So it’s almost like they’re going in and taking over your physically your body and- Showing you just really what a fantastic instrument it is. And, maybe to go back to the car analogy, where, you thought you were just this dud of a car with no features that had 100 m- horsepower that was shit, where it teaches you wow, you really are this amazing supercar race car.

And those experiences are life-changing because y- you know how divine you are and that you really are more than your physical body. And then just a couple more rambles. I guess one really cool one was I did have what I thought an interaction with my f- my future self, which the takeaway from that was, really a lack of fear of death.

I feel very comfortable that my energy will transmute into something beyond just this physical body that I am now. But, tho- those are interactions that are pretty tough to, to kinda come back from and be like, how the hell do you put that into context?” But it was– It wasn’t me with a longer beard.

It wasn’t me just older. It wasn’t all these other kind of en- entity beings. It was really my– a very comforting sense of my consciousness that was coming back to do a diagnostic check on myself. And, I guess the, the one that shook me a couple weeks ago where I was saying like, “Oh, shit,” was most of my interactions are, you’re laying in bed, you’re sitting there, and you’re experiencing what comes to you and/or, and/or, your consciousness blasts off into this DMT space.

This time, really, it felt like I was picked up and taken out of my room, and I was in a physically different location. So– But again it wasn’t scary because I was in this same vibratory hum that I had felt before. But again, you can imagine for other people being like, “What the fuck? I just got picked up and taken out of my room.

Where am I?” But those are the type of experiences that they don’t happen all the time. A lot of times it’s more just inner reflection, but sometimes you do have these crazy interactions that really can’t be explained

Sam Believ: Yeah. So what do you what is your take on the integration and how is it different with DMT?

Obviously, it’s a very short, very powerful experience. Like what’s your advice on like transforming that v- visionary experience into like life-changing routines, let’s say?

Adam Butler: I, and you saying like people that go through that experience I think the experience itself is the greatest teacher on what has to happen in the future.

As much as you or I can be there for guides, I think anybody that touches that divine that connects with that inner sense of self, that finds that self-knowledge and that self-love, Hopefully, and it seems to be the story of the people that I’m, running across, it almost becomes easy and self-perpetuating to stay aligned with that path.

Now, I’m not naive to the fact that there’s– we have to live in this society and that there’s gonna be taxes and bills and all the bullshit that people have to deal with. How do you continue along this path where you don’t self-destruct or get to the path where you’re so stressed out?

And I think it maybe goes back to those triggers and those symbols that we talked about before. You know when your body feels good. You know when you have goosebumps that, that you induce. You know when you’re around people that make you feel good. You… And I– But then also you get, in my opinion, people that have that gut feeling when things aren’t right or they feel the dark energy or see the dark cloud around people.

And I… My biggest kind of advice to people is find out what works for you. So whether it’s spiritual practices, religious practices, meditation, yoga, using medicines on a continued basis, all of those may be appropriate for each individual. And I think it, that’s the fun part is that this is gonna be a unique path for everybody.

But find out what makes you really feel good. For some people, it may be playing music, maybe writing, it may be creating art, it may be holding space for other people to do these plant-based medicines. But I know, like for me, it wasn’t just working in a job that was just to make money. It wasn’t drink 12 beers a day.

It wasn’t be a jerk to everybody. Like there are clearly things that don’t help you and don’t help society, and unfortunately most people just ignore those. Where I think you get a taste of the truth that psychedelics show you. I think when you have, when you look at yourself in the mirror under, under– with that truth serum and there’s no way of lying to yourself ideally people will come back and know intuitively what they need to do.

But I think it’s important to, have a mastermind group of friends and family to hold you accountable. I think it’s important to share these experiences with other people because they are a lot just to keep within. And I think once people are on the path of exploring themselves and knowing that they’re worthy of taking the time to figure shit out that, that’s a big part of it.

And I do wanna… Because we did say, and I– as much as, this is what you’re sharing in my books about it I really do believe that psychedelics are not for everybody, and that there are many other ways of reaching this sense of peace and this inner contentment without necessarily using medicines or these types of modalities.

I think the, the biggest thing though is to know that you’re worthy of it, that people, that to take the time and, even if people went out and spent three weeks with you and didn’t do any type of plant-based medicines, but were just out in the beauty of nature where you can listen to the birds and the chirps and, you’re connected and your phone’s away and people’s computers away, that’s what I think is really important that most people just haven’t done and don’t, wouldn’t even…

It’s not even on the radar. “Oh, how could I go into the woods for, or in, into the jungle for two or three weeks and not have my phone or computer?” It’s like that’s exactly what you need to do. Yeah. So I, it’s more just people realizing that they’re in control of their lives, that they have the ability to find that inner joy and contentment, and if psychedelics are a modality that calls out to you, I think explore it in a safe and respectful fashion, and if it doesn’t, listen to that as well.

But this, I don’t think that the data points are going away as far as how many, that this does help people, and my kind of goal and my passion is really just to share my story to let people know that there are different ways other than drinking or wanting to drive off a cliff, and that, there’s ways of exploring yourself, and that DMT and Ayahuasca are one way of doing it.

Sam Believ: Yeah, there’s many ways to get there. The analogy that I like is if wellbeing or the enlightenment or sort of nirvana is at top of the hill then, or a mountain, there’s many different paths to climb that. And psychedelics do tend to be a bit of a helicopter all the way to the top for a short amount of time, and then they take you back, and then eventually you have to find some other way up there, be it meditation or yoga or journaling or therapy or whatever that works for you.

So on that note, let’s, Yeah.

Adam Butler: Can I add too? ‘Cause you did say, to necessarily end it, if we can bring some levity, because we did go on some of the, the darker or some of the more dangerous aspects of it. I think now, so y- and you asked how do you integrate it into your life where the, the plan isn’t necessarily that you constantly have to be doing psychedelics and you constantly have to go, be going back and, tapping into these these medicines.

It’s ideally you figure out a way that you just naturally run in a holistic beneficial way. But I think psychedelics can be used other than in a therapeutic way. And I mentioned how I don’t– I’ve never just used them in like a, a rave setting or a party setting. But I do have a chapter in my book about transcendental sex, art, and science, and that I do think there’s a, an application of psychedelics to expland, expand, excuse me, not only intimate relationships, like actually using them in a sexual setting if it’s done with respect, in ritual, with, with open communication.

But I think just the ability for relationships themselves as couples to use psychedelics to allow that type of communication to really grow is important. But then just from a, a societal aspect too, what… how can science benefit from thinkers that have been expanded by psychedelics? How can politics can…

how can politics can benefit from all the politicians having more sympathy or empathy? Where, the, a lot of the story people come out of these retreats or sessions that they have a sense of love and connection and oneness, where, like these, these are aspects that if actually overlaid on society could have dramatic and lasting effects to help- What I think, the world needs, which is solving some of the ailments that are help- hurting a lot of people.

But there is, I focus mostly on mental health and suicide prevention and shed in dark- shedding light on the darkness. But there’s the other side of it, where once you’re on the other side of that and life is good and you’re not in a dark place, that now it can be fun to use these to walk through the woods and connect to the animals, to sit down and write and feel like you’re flowing and channeling some other, greater source, and then to have interactions with others that are just on way deeper levels than just verbal communication.

So there, there’s a lot there that I think psychedelics can help humans just expand enjoying being a human.

Sam Believ: Yeah, start with connection and healing and then proceed to growth. That’s, For sure … that’s our retreat motto. Connect, heal, grow. And, Love it … I wish everyone gets there to the growth part and spiritual exploration.

First we need to do some healing and some cleaning, but I’m an optimist. I think good things are coming for our society if we become more conscious. So Adam, thank you for the episode. Thank you for all the information. Before we wrap up where can people find you and more about your work?

Adam Butler: The handle on most of my social media is Books by Adam Butler.

My Instagram is probably the most active. And if anybody does want access to the information in my book, I do always offer a free PDF copy. So if anybody wants to email me, it’s bo***************@***il.com. And, if people want access to my story it, it’s there. And other than that, yeah, I f- I feel like 2026, there’s a lot of opportunities and a lot of collaboration and a lot of me being a middleman to a lot of different aspects of this story, in- including you.

And again, I really appreciate your time and your perspective because it’s a perspective that I don’t necessarily get to talk with all that often. And I think it’s important to just have an open, respectful comma- conversations. And so I’m around. People are gonna be seeing my face a lot more often.

There’s a lot of cool stuff happening, thank you. And I am open too, if anybody does want, to personally communicate, that’s probably one of the best part of being an author talking about this subject, is dozens and dozens of people have reached out saying that my words have helped, and then them sharing their stories really give me the ammo to keep doing what I’m doing.

Sam Believ: Thank you, Adam. Thank you for this episode. Guys, you’ve been listening to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, with you, the host, Sam Bolia, and I will see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you’d like to support us and Psychedelic Renaissance at large, please follow us and leave us a wherever it is you’re listening.

Share this episode with someone who will benefit from this information. Nothing in this podcast is intended as medical advice, and it is for educational and entertainment purposes only. This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat. At LaWayra, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity.

LaWayra, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you.

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast host Sam Believ has a conversation with Cory Firth. Cory is a psychedelic coach and consultant, former Executive Director of the Psychedelic Association of Canada, and a leading voice in mental health policy reform and flow state neuroscience. After overcoming a 20-year battle with depression, anxiety, and suicidal ideation, Cory now helps others bridge ancient wisdom and modern science to unlock human potential and live more integrated, purpose-driven lives.

We touch upon topics of

00:00–02:30 Cory’s childhood, early depression, anxiety, and suicidal ideation

02:30–07:00 Entrepreneurship, burnout, health struggles, and searching for healing

07:00–11:30 Discovering ayahuasca and the first life-changing ceremony

11:30–15:30 Integration challenges and leaving his marketing agency

15:30–20:00 Founding work in the Psychedelic Association of Canada and policy reform

20:00–24:30 Psychedelic advocacy, MDMA and psilocybin access in Canada

24:30–31:00 Trauma-driven performance and learning to channel ambition differently

31:00–36:30 Flow states, effortless action, and the neuroscience of optimal performance

36:30–43:00 The relationship between psychedelics and accessing flow

43:00–48:30 Parenting, morning routines, and finding balance with young children

48:30–54:00 Psychedelics and fatherhood, relationships, and emotional growth

54:00–58:00 Postpartum challenges, resilience, and healing through psychedelics

58:00–01:03:00 The future of psychedelic access, culture, and policy change

01:03:00–01:06:00 Integrating psychedelic philosophy into everyday life and society

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to http://www.lawayra.com

Find more about Cory Firth at coryf.com and follow his writing and updates on LinkedIn. You can also watch his banned TED-style talk on YouTube where he shares more of his personal story.

Transcript

Cory Firth: Around the age of 10, I started to experience depression, anxiety, and suicidal ideation. I basically took my complex trauma of, proving myself as an athlete when I was a kid and put it into my work and turned my whole agency, I called it Proof of Performance. I was proving myself all day long, and I realized through that ayahuasca experience that all I’m doing is proving myself all day long to my clients.

I used to have a three-hour morning routine before I had a kid, and I would do this, and then I would do that, and I would do this, and if I didn’t do it, then my whole day would be a mess, and I would… If I missed one or two of those things, I would walk around with this little tinge of fear and anxiety ’cause it was like, “What’s gonna happen?”

This guy was talking about his ayahuasca experience, and all he did was talk about throwing up and shitting himself all night. And I thought to myself, “Wow, this sounds like something I need.” The way that I would describe it is the way Timothy Leary describes the shaking of the snow globe.

Definitely shook things up for me in terms of my identity, my work, my meaning, purpose, vision for my life, my health all kinds of different things. From what I love studying the most is flow states, which is in a very simple word or simple summary, is effortless action. So when you’re in a state of flow, you’re not thinking about being in flow.

You’re not thinking about doing anything. You’re absent of time. You’re absent of self-consciousness, and you’re immersed in the present moment experience. You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast.com

Hi, guys, and welcome to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, with you, the host, Sam Belinf. Today, I’m having a conversation with Corey Firth. He’s a coach and a consultant in the psychedelic space. He is the former executive director of the Psychedelic Association of Canada. Corey is a leading voice in mental health policy reform and a flow state neuroscience coach.

After overcoming 20-year battle with depression, he now dedicates his work to sovereign evolution, helping others bridge the gap between ancient wisdom and more science to unlock their full human potential. This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat. At LaWayra, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity.

LaWayra, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you. Corey, welcome to the show. Thanks, Sam. It’s good to be here with you, man. Corey tell us about your story. How… y- about your depression, how you overcame it, what role psychedelics played in it, and why did you step into this line of work?

Yeah, sure. I’ll try to keep it short. I could probably go on this whole time, but yeah. So my, my story goes back, I guess a lot of people’s to their childhood. I had a wonderful childhood, wonderful upbringing, great parents, great family life, great community. Played a lot of competitive sports, so that kind of layered in a, a bit of a complex around performance and proving yourself and all of that kind of stuff.

But around the age of 10, I started to experience depression anxiety, and suicidal ideation. And, that was a challenging experience for me growing up in the late ’80s, early ’90s when just even things like depression weren’t really well known or discussed or really open. Even like seeing a psychotherapist in the ’90s, wasn’t super mainstream.

It was something that a lot of people didn’t really talk about. So the options available to me when I was a child outside of, like I said, my loving, nurturing family, there wasn’t a lot. And so I didn’t really even speak it out loud to a lot of people. I just quietly struggled with it in the background.

And then as I grew, it continued to get more and more challenging for myself. And then when I got into, to working later on in life in my early 20s it started to mount even more, and the suicidal ideation specifically started to grow there. And then I got into starting my own business and growing an agency that right off the bat was really successful from a money perspective basically.

But everything else about the business was killing me slowly alongside these, these challenges that I was experiencing. And then also around that same time in sort of my mid-20s, I had developed a tumor in my throat the size of a baseball, and it took about 12 to 18 months to really understand if it was benign or not, which it was luckily, and I had it removed.

But I also developed Hashimoto’s disorder. It’s a, a thyroid disorder. And yeah, I was just treating myself really poorly. I had really bad health habits. Was drinking a lot, smoking cigarettes other drugs and things like that and was just really yeah, I was just really challenging myself in terms of if I should stay or if I should go kind of thing, and was really contemplating things.

And then right around the time that my agency was at its peak, my my younger brother had a daughter And I was peak stress, peak, unhealthy at that time. But when I saw her and I held her for the first time, I kinda saw like a vision of my future, that I had to stay and I had to see her grow.

And that kinda shifted things a little bit. I still chall- was challenged by a lot, but I felt motivated now to kinda do something different. The doctors that I was seeing for my thyroid condition were just basically saying “Here’s medication. You’re gonna have to stay on this the rest of your life.”

I have ended up– Actually, I’m- I’ve overcome that. I don’t have that disorder any, any longer. Healthy thyroid healthy, generally. I I tr- I tried at one point through before I found psychedelics and ayahuasca specifically I tried, like everything under the sun.

I- I say that I tried like everything that ends in therapy. Any therapy you could think of. Electroshock therapy. I did horse therapy all kinds of different things. And some of them worked to a certain extent, but then a friend of mine sent me a podcast. This was in 2015 or ’16, I think. And this guy was talking about his ayahuasca experience, and all he did was talk about throwing up and shitting himself all night.

And I thought to myself, “Wow, this sounds like something I need.” Which at the time, or maybe six months or a year before that, I would’ve been like, “This is crazy. I’m absolutely not doing this.” But I needed that like gut punch. I needed that like, whatever that was that I was hearing, I– it felt like it was calling me.

And yeah, my friend and I ended up where we were planning to go down to Costa Rica to do a retreat down there, and I backed out after planning it all with him. He ended up going down. I was too scared to go when I, when we were re- ready to pull the trigger, and he went down, kinda told me all about it.

He had this massive breakthrough, and within two weeks I had booked. And, his validation was enough for me to, to kinda book it and go. And then I went down there had an incredible experience. I would say it, the way that I would describe it is the way Timothy Leary describes the shaking of the snow globe.

Definitely shook things up for me in terms of my identity, my work, my meaning, purpose, vision for my life, my health all kinds of different things. And then ended up coming back and I would say as like Corey 2.0 after that. And made a lot of different changes from 2017 to now that have completely transformed my life in many ways that we could talk about.

But that’s the background to getting me to ayahuasca and to that period of time, yeah. Tell us more about that, that first Ayahuasca experience, like the shaking of the snow globe. ‘Cause obviously it’s, it changed your life a lot. I believe, Yeah. Tell us about the experience, and also then what happened afterwards.

‘Cause I think you, you sold your company, right? And you just completely went to this you dedicated yourself to this psychedelic space, right? Which kinda happened to a lot of us, like myself included. Yeah. I’m always curious about those stories. Yeah. I think, yeah, I just, like coming away from it, it’s how do, how, you- we have this like delusional optimism when you come back and you’re like, “Everyone needs to try this.

Mom, you gotta go down.” Da, whatever da. You, it’s like everyone can be fixed by this, right? And and very quickly within a conversation or two, I realized, oh, I can’t be doing this. And it took me longer to integrate. But back then there, there wasn’t what, the infrastructure now in terms of community and integration and even content like this type of stuff or news articles that are coming out and talking about people’s stories.

So I didn’t really have much to ground myself back into things. And I’m lucky I would say, ’cause some people go this is not the best way to describe it, but maybe like off the deep end in terms of like completely alienating themselves from their community and their family and their past life now that they’ve had these experiences.

I’m luckily I didn’t do that. And I did find some good community and then realized that there was more of that needed. And I think in a lot of ways too as these things happen, there’s a letting go of what’s supposed to happen that occurs that allows what’s actually supposed to happen occur.

And I, what I mean by that is it was very obvious somewhat quickly that I, the work that I was doing in my agency, so my agency was a proof of performance marketing agency that comes back to the intro of the the background in childhood in profe- in, in competitive sports. I basically took my, a, a complex trauma of, proving myself as an athlete when I was a kid and put it into my work and turned my whole agency, I called it proof of performance.

I was proving myself all day long, and I realized through that Ayahuasca experience that all I’m doing is proving myself all day long to my clients. I’m not actually delivering value. The skills that I have are valuable, but I’m putting them into things that are really perpetuating capitalism and materialism in a way that doesn’t feel right to me, it didn’t feel right to me.

And that was that unlock of what I felt was making me sick. I was try- constantly proving myself and working, in places and with companies that weren’t really aligned with m- my maybe skills, highest good truest self. And it took time to, to realize that. But luckily I was able to transfer out of my, the company that I had, excuse me- And and get into this work where it was a little more at the beginning, more kind of philanthropic and charitable where I worked with a foundation to help build an Ayahuasca and psilocybin retreat center down in Costa Rica.

And then the pandemic hit not long after we kinda launched that, and tourism slowed down, everything slowed down obviously at that time. And then there was a group out in British Columbia here in Canada that had just started to form what was at the time called the Canadian Psychedelic Association.

It has since rebranded to the Psychedelic Association of Canada. But they had raised I think like 25 grand, 30 grand to get started. They had formed their nonprofit corporation and had done a few little things. And then they hired me as the founding executive director. So I helped to build the infrastructure of that organization, which then spawned another organization.

The Psychedelic Association itself was really about advancing access to individuals. So they were lobbying the government they were building community, they were hosting educational events. And then Psychedelics Canada, which was birthed out of the Psychedelic Association, became more of that professional trade association, which was trying to build the infrastructure for the professional deliverable side of what’s happening, so therapists, clinics, drug development companies, and things like that.

And through those leading I ended up founding that organization, the second one and was the founding executive director there and founder of that to begin with. We started the board, and then we raised some money there. And between those two organizations, I I also led a team that, Myself and others co-authored what’s called here a mem- memorandum of regulatory approval that you submit to our government and our health association called Health Canada to get them to add MDMA and psilocybin to what’s called the Special Access Program here in Canada, which is a, a program that allows medical professionals to access scheduled substances for specific use cases.

So in this instance, we were proposing them adding severe depression, end of life anxiety to that list, and then adding MDMA and psilocybin as as options. Because what happened here was our Health Canada system went through an approval proce- process on their medical assistance and dying program, and they actually added depression to it.

Severe depression, sorry, I should say. And so we thought, right to die, right to try kind of concept, which has been shared across the world in other various ways with psychedelics. But we really leaned into that. We submitted the memorandum of regulatory approval. We worked with Health Canada in a lot of ways, which was re- really awesome.

And they ended up in January 2021, I believe, ended up changing the Special Access Program and adding psilocybin and MDMA to it. So now access has grown and increased there. But I’ll take a breath. I’ll just say at the end, what I realized through that process and working with government and government relations specialists and politics and all that kind of stuff, I just felt every day that I was being hugged and stabbed in the back at the same time because there’s this manipulation inside of making changes at a policy level that are really ugly and I would say inhumane in some ways.

And it’s very challenging to make that work in a way that feels like in alignment with my integrity. So I quickly after the, the changes were made I left that and started a community center here where I live, and then started to getting into the coaching and consulting, working with other companies in the space that are, were a little bit more aligned to my work, my skills and my vision for what I believe I can do inside of helping others receive more access to these types of important medic- medicines and tools.

Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And something you said about like the zealous phase where you kinda destroy relationships just because you’re pushing people to heal exactly how you healed and you want them to be there right now. It’s kinda we talk to people a lot about that too, to not do it because it’s it’s a trap that we all fall into. And kinda like accepting that different people have different healing schedules. They need to come there on their own terms, and all we can do is plant the seeds. And something that you… As, as you described your process and then you kinda went from one very intense lifestyle to another still very intense lifestyle in this space.

There’s definitely this there’s definitely power in using trauma as a performance tool. So I don’t know if you wanna talk about this. What have you learned and understood about this where something in you that, that pain in you is driving you to, to perform and how to overcome that?

Yeah. Growing up here in Canada hockey is obviously a big part of a lot of, kid’s childhood. It was a big part of mine. And I was pretty good. I was not a bad little hockey player, especially when I was really young. I stood out, amongst the crowd. And my dad saw that and did a really great job of steering me towards improving and growing.

But the challenge was when it became competitive in, in, in areas I had coaches and things like that, that were really playing a bit of a political game. And we’re, like, kids, right? We’re like six, seven, eight, nine, 10 years old, kids playing what is for us just a game. And so when I was a kid, I would st- I would spend all day outside playing, just playing and playing, and that’s how I actually, I think, got good at it.

It wasn’t necessarily needing a lot of coaching, but then, I had certain coaches that just were playing this political game, and it just didn’t… It wasn’t fun anymore because I was now forced to, rather than just play the game that I loved and was relatively good at I had this pressure behind it that was, if I don’t do this, I won’t make the team, and if I don’t make the team, then I won’t be with my friends.

If I don’t, I’m not with my friends, then what am I gonna do, and yada, yada. So luckily I, I moved through that and, made these teams and, kept going. But as I kept going through that and I got older and was playing in different leagues and things like that it just became more just, it just, it completely drained the fun out of what was the game for me.

But that didn’t go away. That, that kind of imprinted in me, I would say this desire to perform and grow and achieve have a goal and set it and, yada yada, and be the best and all of this kind of stuff. And that didn’t really go away and it followed me. I went through a period, I would say in high school and a little bit after where I rebelled.

I just, I just disconnected from everything and really didn’t want to do any of that. And then when I got into getting a career or moving through, my career, it came back hard. And it was like, I wanna be the best, I wanna be, I wanna have the big- biggest, best clients, and I wanna have the best business and I wanna be successful.

And, it was like the keeping up with the Joneses analogy where on the outside, I might be building this white picket fence and this nice house and whatever, this relationship and this business that I actually was working with the biggest brands in the world, like Amazon and Universal Studios and all of that, but I was dying inside.

And I didn’t really know why ’cause I, I was just like trained or conditioned to like grow and improve yourself and be successful and, have this thing and it drove me, in a good way, maybe just like economically for a little bit, but it also just ate me up inside.

And then when I had these sort of breakthroughs with psychedelics and a few other therapies and trainings and things that I had done, and some really great teachers, I started to realize that that energy can be channeled in a different way if it comes from a place of clarity and calm not from pressure and force.

More from what I love studying the most is flow states, which is in a very simple word or simple summary, is effortless action. So when you’re in a state of flow, you’re not thinking about being in flow. You’re not thinking about doing anything. You’re absent of time, you’re absent of self-consciousness, and you’re immersed in the present moment experience.

And so I Yeah, once I shifted that, it was like I can still use the energy of creating something or trying to build something that is of value and helpful for others, but not from a place of having to perform for it or to prove to anyone that it’s successful or prove to anyone that it’s valuable.

Just to create for the sake of creating and stay in the flow as long as possible through that in order to allow the truest form of what it’s supposed to be, rather than it be from my self-conscious ego maybe, or my my idea of what it’s supposed to be, rather than just allow it to create and build and go slow with it.

I’m not sure if that answered the question, but that’s what came from me. No, I think it did. I kinda recently I myself am realizing a lot of that. I have a lot of very similar patterns in, in the way I live life, and it’s kinda like connecting to it but from the point of view of self-love where not really forcing things that much.

And when you talk about flow, I don’t really think about it too much. But it’s if you can have a water flowing and it’s like a laminar flow where it just flows effortlessly and it still flows, right? Or you can have a turbulent flow. And the… Your desire to control the outcomes exactly and specifically, and the w- the way I’m understanding is sometimes I’m kinda burning myself as fuel for a certain outcome.

So I, I’d like to… Some people expect, because I’ve, I run this Ayahuasca retreat now. I’ve been in this space for five years. Some people expect me to have figured it all out. I’m not there yet. But I one of my recent realizations they’re in this space of that if you kinda, if you don’t need a certain outcome To people for, in order for people to love yourself. And if you kinda love yourself, then you can still do things, but even with less effort somehow come up with even better results. So it’s a- … that’s kinda what I’m integrating right now. So I don’t know if any more comments for you, Cameron.

And just- Oh, yeah. Totally … go with us deeper on the topic of flow, and also like what- Yeah … what’s the role psychedelics play in it? Yeah. I totally relate to that. And I think, the, the thing that was showing up for me when you were speaking was this- This idea of like s-storytelling.

We’re storytelling beings, right? We’re meaning-making beings, and our brains have evolved to make meaning and create story out of survival. And that’s a very useful, that’s a very useful thing for survival. But the way we live today is not as, as we did back thousands of years ago, where we’re hunter-gatherers and there was a potential bear outside of our cave that we had to be mindful of that, that could potentially hurt us.

But that storytelling architecture in the mind is still there, and what I’ve found very useful for myself and this started, at the beginning of this sort of transformation for me, but has really cemented on more, more recently, is getting out of the way and really not listening to the story in my mind, good or bad.

Because in a lot of ways and at least from my own personal experimentation, the story’s never true. It’s there to provide meaning, and we like having meaning ’cause it helps us and it kinda dr- guides us in a way. But it’s not really true. And so having some, some ability to figure out what is true is is a useful skill.

And I think that i- a lot of ways it comes back down to awareness. You were hinting at it a little bit, I would say, around like loving yourself. For me it’s like awareness of what is true. I just had an experience recently where I moved houses and the impetus for moving was my shower was leaking.

Leaking so bad into the room below it kinda thing, so there was a lot of inf- infrastructure damage happening. Just the house was falling apart. And, I could’ve been in my head, and maybe a couple years ago I would’ve been in my head going like, “This is the end of the world for me. This is like, where am I gonna live?

Da, da. My family,” all this kinda stuff. Relatively quickly, through a bit of just awareness of what the brain was doing, was like, this is just information. Something is happening in my reality, and I have a choice here to choose to take a step towards whatever is happening and make a change in that way, or I can sit and suffer inside of the story my mind is creating around this experience rather than just playing with the raw materials of what’s really happening.

So I find that’s really useful, and that’s like a… I guess that would be more of a play with consciousness relative in, in comparison to, to flow. But where flow comes into it for me is, Actually, I’ll pause there ’cause I, I know we were kinda touching on a few things there. Was there anything else that, that you wanted to chat about related to- No, it’s good.

Let’s- … what you were sharing? No, continue. This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat. Most of LaWayra if you’ve been listening to this podcast for a while. Some of you might have already been to LaWayra before. For those who don’t know us yet, we started LaWayra four years ago. At LaWayra, we combine authenticity, accessibility, and affordability.

LaWayra is currently highest-rated Ayahuasca retreat in South America, with more than 700 five-star reviews and an average rating of five stars. If you come to LaWayra, you’ll experience powerful, authentic ceremonies led by our indigenous shaman, Fernando, in a very beautiful venue just one hour south of Medellín, Colombia.

We’re surrounded by nature and have comforts like hot water, Wi-Fi. At LaWayra, our team has guided more than 2,500 people through this life-changing transformation of Ayahuasca experience. At the same time, we keep it very affordable. So whether you’re coming for healing, clarity, or a deeper connection to yourself, LaWayra is the best choice.

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L-A-W-A-Y-R-A.com. Okay. So where flow comes into it for me was when a few years ago I did some training with an amazing guy named Steven Kotler and his organization called The Flow Research Collective. He’s probably like the modern day, most researched individual or his group has researched the state of flow more than anyone else.

He’s written a bunch of really great books on it, and he has some, he has a training. He doesn’t have it anymore. But he had this really great training that brought all the top neuroscientists from all the biggest institutions across the world together to distill down the foundations of flow state neuroscience, and then help you develop a program for yourself whether it’s coaching, consulting or in whatever sort of capacity you’re building in.

Develop your own program that takes the philosophy and science of flow and embed it into whatever you’re doing. And when I understood a lot more about the flow state, I s- I saw a lot of parallels with psychedelics because in the state of flow, you’re, like I was saying before, you’re immersed in the present moment.

You’re not thinking about the that, there, then of the past or the what, where, when of the future. You’re right here and now in the present moment. And that’s all there is. You probably hear that a lot. There’s a lot of people probably talking about that. But the, the state of flow goes through a predictable cycle that has been studied and researched extensively now that mostly looks at like Navy SEALs, athletes, and creatives.

But to me, this, the state of flow, if everyone can access it every day, it’s, I think it’s the most optimal state of being. Because what happens is there’s four, four phases to the what’s called the flow cycle, which is what gets you into flow So you have in the first phase, you have what is termed as like the struggle phase.

You’ve probably seen this before if you’re like sitting down to do a business plan or write a book or whatever it is. You’re in that, you’re in that state of like the, the to-do list you had set before. Maybe you had an argument with your partner, or maybe you’re thinking about a meeting you have coming up in the afternoon.

But you’re like really trying to focus your attention on the thing that you’re doing. Let’s call it writing a book just for the sake of a simple example. Your brain is going through a neurochemical and a frequency change as you’re going through this cycle. And so what’s happening is stress builds in the struggle phase.

So norepinephrine is building cortisol is building, and your your mind and your body are trying to calm down and to focus. And when you move through the struggle and you stay with it enough and you keep moving, you’ll enter into the release phase of the cycle. And in that phase is where things like nitric oxide come on and you release out of the struggle phase.

And the to-do list and the argument and the future things you’re doing, they start to fall away. And then that thing that you’re presenting yourself with and the attention that you’re trying to get starts to come online, and then you enter the flow state. And that’s a beautiful mix between like sort of a gamma, theta brainwave state, and that’s where like dopamine and endorphins come online and your focus comes in naturally and you, your self-consciousness down regulates and your sense of time disappears, and you’re just focused and in the moment.

And that to me is available to everybody because we all do stuff. We all channel our attention and our focus throughout the day. But a lot of people don’t actively try to be a conduit to that. They’re more controlled by their environment and the things that they’re doing, rather than being the one that’s driving their ability to get into flow And so my, my thought here is if you can have someone access a deep level of flow and psychedelics offer that in many ways, especially I would say 5-MeO-DMT, what it seems like anyway then they can see what’s possible in that state.

And then ideally that they with certain habits and practices, which is some of the stuff I coach up in my coaching and consulting, is a daily practice of flow where they’re getting into flow. Sometimes it might be like a meditation style practice, or it might be a work-based practice, it might be a connection-based family practice.

But it’s trying to live a bit of a more flow-based lifestyle, and there’s different really cool practices and tools that I think support psychedelics really well, especially in terms of integration, where people can find that present moment, find that, that focus on something that’s very important to them, that even for just a small moment in the day can stack and build and grow and become something that I think is very important.

Not just from a mindset perspective or from let’s say, an output perspective, but I think from a nervous system perspective. Because the other really interesting thing about the state of flow is it’s the really integrated balance between the parasympathetic nervous system and the sympathetic nervous system, where you’re in this heightened state of, you might call it anxiety if you were in the wrong situation, but you’re in this ex- heightened state of excitement where you’re trying to focus on something that’s valuable and important to you.

But you’re also really if done right and, coached through or even just found right in the practice, you’re also balancing that heightened nervous system state with the really calm parasympathetic nervous system state. So for me, that is the ultimate optimal state of being for anyone when it comes to health, because if you’re too much in the, the sympathetic nervous system state, obviously you’re wildly stressed out, anxious, fearful.

And then if you’re too much in the parasympathetic state, you’re just like puddle, not doing anything. So this balance here for me is like a really unique state of wellbeing that I think is achievable for a lot of people. But right now, a lot of the, the science on flow is geared towards performance-based things.

So I’m really fascinated in terms of how it can be used for what I’ll just call like optimal state of being which can be applied to, I think, everybody. But more so when we’re talking about psychedelics, those people that are, I think, maybe sick of the mainstream and more interested in like alternative ways of living and being that are a little bit more in, in alignment with them as their true state of being, rather than, let’s say, what what the culture has decided is like the optimal way of being.

Yeah, definitely we’re… very few of us are optimal these days. There is a lot of chaos. So one, one other topic that you like to talk about is psychedelics and fatherhood, right? And personally I struggle a lot with being in the flow in the moment when you’re, like, surrounded by kids and they’re…

I have three kids. They’re all very small. And or I’ll describe you a situation. I wake up in the morning and I come out of my room and they jump me and they all want love simultaneously, and they’re… So one might be crying and the other might be telling me something, and it’s like first thing in the morning, that’s pretty stressful.

So how do you how would, how does one find flow in that moment? Without go- making this a coaching session, I’ll just share from my experience. I have a four-and-a-half-year-old. So I don’t know if that’s close to the ages of your kids. But I just have the one. And I get the same thing.

Get up in the morning and I come out and it’s like, “Yeah, Daddy play me with me,” da, blah, blah, blah. Which I love and that’s great. And so what I try to do is anticipate that so I’m not coming right out and getting into my morning routine and isolating myself. I’m… That’s part of my routine, is to accept that love, that playfulness, that wrestling that giddy energy that she has in the morning.

I’m anticipating that and I’m planning for that. And I’m not scheduling it or, it’s not like a productivity point for me. It’s really just trying to organize it so I have… if the ideal state I come out and there’s love and there’s good and she’s cool with me separating and going and doing my own routine, then I can get a longer, sacred ritual in before I start my day.

But if she needs more of my attention, then I have a minimum viable routine that I can drop into that’s five to 10 minutes, so that if I don’t get everything that I’d like to get in, I get the time, I give the time that she needs, but then I also give myself some time. So I’m never ignoring what I need, but I’m also still accounting for her needs and making sure I’m part of that.

That’s how I think about it. It’s never perfect, and I think that’s the idea is to separate myself from perfection, is to get away from the idea that every day is going to be ruled by this routine. A lot of people have these habits and routines and morning routines that are hours and hours long, and myself included.

I used to have a three-hour morning routine before I had a kid, and I would do this and then I would do that and I would do this. And if I didn’t do it, then my whole day would be a mess. And I would… If I missed one or two of those things, I would walk around with this like little tinge of like fear and anxiety ’cause it was like, “What’s gonna happen?”

‘Cause I didn’t get my cold plunge in or whatever the hell it was. And now it’s like, it’s just… that’s not optimal. It’s not optimal for even someone who doesn’t have kids. But someone who does have kids we have to make sure that we’re doing that idea where, you’re on a plane and they say, “Take care of yourself first with the mask, oxygen mask.

If things go down, then take care of your people next to you.” And so it’s like that. It’s like I’ve always gotta make sure I’m taking care of myself because if I’m not good for myself, I can’t be good for others that, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I think not to take, not to say that you have it easy, but one sounds very easy.

Yes. My kids are one and a half, three and a half and five, and it’s like they simultaneously want attention right now. I can’t be like, “Oh, I’m gonna love you and I’m gonna love you.” No, it’s like they all want it to them right now. So it is the for few minutes, then they calm down and I’m like, I’m able.

And I do get my morning meditation before I even step out of my room because I know that if I, if they even see me, and even then they’re already knocking on my door. Yeah. So- Yeah … it’s challenging, but it’s still beautiful. I’m not complaining. I just try to turn it all into play.

Yeah. I just try to think of everything as play. Everything as play. Even, we’ve got a wood fireplace at home. I’m playing with her building the fire. I’m playing with her in getting the fire. The firewood, for example. And so I’m always thinking about every interaction, like, where can I make it playful?

And that seems to ease any of the tensions that I’m feeling around, oh, I didn’t get this in, or I didn’t do that, or I’m trying to move from this to that and you’re interrupting me in some way. But it’s not easy as much as you think it is. I’m with you on that. Definitely one is easier than three, of course.

But I feel you in the in, in like what might be, tension or friction sometimes. I guess it’s like a process of letting go. This morning I woke up and I bought them this puzzle, and we I wanted to do this puzzle together with them. We set up a table and everything, and then the youngest one started, like, destroying it.

At first I was like, I started to get angry. Like, why? Like, all this process that we’ve, all the progress that we made. And then I just accepted. I just accepted that you cannot make a 150 piece puzzle with three kids under five years old, ’cause my oldest he’s gonna turn five this, this month.

So I just accepted it, but not oh I, I got angry or anything. I just let go, which is a progress for me, to be honest. So yeah. But you wanted to talk about psychedelic f- fatherhood. So what from which point of view, like psychedelics helping you be a better father or maybe overcoming postpartum depression?

‘Cause it both affects the man and the woman or maybe- … yeah. T- talk to us about that. Yeah. I’d say a little bit of all of that really. But I think it, at the beginning, the anchor for me on it is psychedelics helped me become a father. I’d always wanted to be a father. I had a great father, a great grandfather, great men in my life that represented fatherhood, and I always wanted to, I always wanted to be a dad.

It felt, it feels like for me being a father, and this is no judgment to anyone that doesn’t have kids, but- Be- being a father is like a rite of passage as a man in this world, as a human, and I really wanted that experience. And for a long time, not the right person or not the right time or situation or whatever, it didn’t really present itself.

And then as I was going through, like I shared in my story at the beginning, some of my struggles and the agency and, everything where I was at, I just, that all came to a head. It was like I- it’s kinda like now or never. If I don’t find the right person and make it happen, it’s not gonna happen.

And Ayahuasca showed me, in a lot of ways… I try to be careful the way I describe this because, you can get an insight on these experiences, but then it’s like, how do you make that ordinary? Because on the experience with Ayahuasca, I was with a woman that I’d been with for a long time and it showed me that I needed to, or I interpreted the insight that I gathered around doubling down and trying to make that relationship work.

But then when I came back and started integrating, I realized that the insights that I was actually given was I needed to let that go in order for a new relationship to emerge. And then from that experience, a a baby will emerge out of that And I actually saw that in my ayahuasca journey, but I, you, it’s like we talk about puzzles.

Like I, I always describe ayahuasca as like showing up to the ceremony with four different boxes of four different puzzles and piling all the puzzles down on the floor and trying to figure out where all these puzzle pieces go. So I had a puzzle piece here and a puzzle piece here, and I was trying to fit them together when I really needed to do what your one-year-old was doing and just throw that puzzle away and just play with this puzzle piece.

And so it took me a little bit to figure that out, but once I did, all… I kept getting these experiences coming back to me where I was where I actually met my partner through the ayahuasca experience and then coming back and meditating. I was seeing her in some visuals and had an experience of actually meeting her in real life, and then we got together and we’ve been together for almost six years now, and we have a four-year-old.

And it all happened really fast because like you said, I let go. I didn’t try to force it. I let go of the relationship once it was clear that needed to be let go of. And I would say love emerged out of that and a daughter emerged out of that, which is amazing. And so that was supportive of me getting to a place where I knew that I wanted to be a father and I found the right person that I was able to have, have a child with.

But then it became, am I ready to be a father? Am I… Do I have it all together? Do I, do I have the right skills to bring a, a child into the world? Am I set up, structurally, financially, s- m- mentally, spiritually? And so that took a little bit too. And then tools like psilocybin and MDMA helped me with my relationship with what I’ll say just manhood and my relationship to what it means to be a father.

And I’ve had– I actually have a, a really profound, had a really profound experience with psilocybin where my partner now, who at that time we hadn’t had a child yet, sat for me and walked me through a bunch of e- really emotional release around being a father. And then a week later she got pregnant.

It was a very beautiful experience. So helping me Ayahuasca showed me that, it’s there, it’s possible. I had to do the work to make it happen, and I had to listen and let go and trust. And then again, the same thing of the emotional side of it. I had to let go of that and trust and receive and really believe in myself and take the actions towards that.

And, I did that. And then, yeah, and then once we had our daughter yeah, you brought up postpartum. My partner, she had a really challenging postpartum experience. I would say the nine-month gestation period was beautiful. She super calm. Even our birth was really fast and natural and amazing and quick and from my perspective, not painful.

Not too stressful. She would have a different story on that. But yeah, it was a beautiful experience. And then three days after, My partner was brought to the hospital. We actually almost lost her. She had postpartum preeclampsia, and her heart rate was just out of control. And we didn’t really know what to expect.

We had such an easy sort of transition and everything, so we didn’t really know what was happening. I thought she was just tired from giving birth. But yeah, she was in the hospital for a day and we thought, we might have lose her, might have lost her. And so in that experience, right off the bat, I’m three days old.

My daughter’s three days old. I’m sitting in the car ’cause it was COVID time. I couldn’t even be in the hospital. I didn’t know what was happening up there. I was just getting news from nurses about what was going on. And I’m holding my daughter in my lap in the car and just “What am I gonna do?”

Like how can I do this by myself? Yeah. And luckily everything worked out, but it was a pretty traumatic experience for both of us, and we’ve both worked through that in our own ways. And one of the ways that I’ve worked through it is partly psychedelics, and it’s helped me release some of that stuff, but also trusting in myself to be able to hold it down no matter what happens.

And it’s helped me in a lot of ways with my mental health through that postpartum depression period that she had really deeply after that hospital experience and for myself as well, watching her go through that, trying to hold it down and keep a stable household while I was also building this nonprofit and some of this business stuff too.

Coming back to baseline and finding a balance with some microdosing and some various things is really helpful for me. Yeah. Those are all very, very useful tools. And I sometimes ask myself, like, when I’m going through very difficult times and then I go, I drink Ayahuasca or work with other plant medicines, and it just helps you so much, and you process and you understand so quickly.

I’m just wondering how the hell did our parents do their life? And it kinda explains why, in my case, like- My dad and he, like my mom, they definitely made lots of mistakes, but my, my dad didn’t have ayahuasca, right? He was going through a rough time, so he ended up becoming an alcoholic.

But I don’t even judge him that much because it’s sometimes the pain is too much and that’s what people end up doing. So we’re living in a really cool time where all of these things are available. Yeah, I think so too. And I wish for more fathers to be able to have these types of experiences.

That’s why it’s such a fascinating and a, a fun topic for me, because exactly what you said, like that era of our fathers turning to substances that created more sadness and more depression and more angst and didn’t help at all. In fact, probably made things worse. Ideally, with everything going on lately with the psychedelic movement and over the last 10 years, ideally that can switch, right?

And I, there’s obviously a big movement now going like sober, alcohol-free, that kind of stuff, and a lot more people exploring these things. And I just think if a lot more households were connected to the spirit of plant medicine, not necessarily having to explore it, but the spirit of what it provides, then I think we’re gonna be creating households and futures for our kids that I think will create a, an even more beautiful future for the world.

And I really think that’s a possibility and it’s happening right now, which is very exciting. Yeah. And obviously for this to happen, like psychedelics need to become more legal and more available. I think that’s something you’re very passionate about to get more people to have access to that.

So obviously I don’t know how much you know about me, but I run LaWayra, which is an Ayahuasca retreat here in Colombia, and basically that’s what we’re trying to do, like lower the barrier of entry for people to be able to easily access those medicines, but in a, let’s say an affordable way, but also not needing to go like deep into the jungle.

Like k- combining the accessibility and the authenticity of this space. So what have you thought about in this, like what would be the best outcome of your work from the point of view of like people getting better access to those medicines? Yeah. I think, there’s different parts of the world that have lesser boundaries around these types of things.

Where I come from in Canada- Yes … very strict, I would say, other than what I shared with you in the beginning of what, was able to change. But in a lot of ways, I’ll just speak from like the Canadian perspective. What happens here is like when public opinion changes, policy changes, but that takes a long time.

And so public opinion has already changed. I think the, there’s some recent surveys that have gone out around psilocybin in terms of like approvals and people that are in favor of having psilocybin as a medicine for people struggling with various mental health disorders. Public opinion’s already there, and the majority of people, I would say probably somewhere close to 99% of people, if not more than that are experiencing these these medicines and tools outside of the current medical system.

So the medical system is just archaic and just super slow to evolve and change. So what we need to have happen is what’s continuing to happen now, where communities are getting together and forming their own structures in a lot of ways. That part is messy too, and there’s a whole bunch of problems with that, but we have to go through that period, I believe, of kind of breaking things down in order to rebuild something new.

That is a lot harder inside of the current medical system and current government system. But I really believe that things are changing and I’m hearing more and more of politicians exploring these things. And I had some experiences myself with my, in my advocacy days of, speaking with government relations officials and things like that, and them being interested in this from a personal perspective.

So I think I think it’s just time. I think time is more, more the issue here than anything else because I think things have shifted and we’re at the beginning of that, and it’s just gonna take some time. And it might take some more breaking down, which might cause chaos and problems, but I- I’m just a d- a delusional optimist and believe that’s a good thing.

Yeah, I’m also personally very optimistic about the space. It kinda goes in waves, but I think that from an Ayahuasca point of view, I think that within the next 10, 10 to 20 years we’ll go from people conversation changing from “What the hell is Ayahuasca?” To, “When’s the last time you did Ayahuasca?”

Kinda like what happened with yoga. I’m envisioning people coming out to do it like once a year on the regular basis to, to kinda keep them more sane- saner living. And then including other tools like microdosing in between, or it’d be a mushroom ceremony here or there, or meditation, yoga. Ob- obviously not seeing psychedelics or Ayahuasca as like the end all be all, but also u- h- using it as a tool to cultivate a healthier- ways of living.

So more as a tool to understand and grow from there, and not just as a pill you take to take away the problem or mask it. Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s a big part of what I was saying before around fatherhood and the family system, is the philosophy of what comes out of a, a medicine experience also needs to be embedded into the culture more, too.

Where the idea of integrated living is a concept that I really love to write about, and explore, and play with, where everything you think about or everything you do in your day is related to your health and wellbeing, from your work, the way you manage your time, the way you organize your life. But those aren’t things that we think about.

We think about… When we think about health here in the mainstream culture in North America it’s like what do you put in your body, and then how do you work it out? But how you schedule your time, how you think about organizing your life, how you show up for your work, and what work you do, and who you work with, those all directly impact your stress levels, your nervous system, your health.

And so I think the more that not just, access to medicine and policies change, but also a cultural shift in the philosophy of a way of being, where these linear goals, they’re just not working. I’m gonna do this, and then this, and then I’m gonna succeed.

I’m gonna be this thing. Rather than it be about this identity thing, more being about this integrative way of living, I think is another element that, that needs to shift alongside this stuff because, And I think that’s maybe partly why we’re not necessarily ready for it as a society, because there’s a whole philosophy and way of being that comes with these types of things, and I think the more that gets spread, the more I think the access will be there, and then the less people will need the medicine at all.

Ideally, you just don’t need any of it. And that’s not good for someone like you that has a retreat center, but, like you said it’s not a pharma thing, right? It’s not take this pill and this’ll be better, and take it consistently forever and it’ll be better. But then when you are experiencing the medicine or you want to go further and you need it from a certain life transition or season of time, it’s there for you, and you can come down to a place like where you are and experience that and have that ex- have that journey and recalibrate and re-sync to the philosophies or ways of being that you, you want to live you want to live into.

Yeah. I disagree with you, though, on people needing the medicine or not. So my… Our, our motto actually is connect, heal, grow. So when people are done with connecting and healing, then there is this growth part. So in that case, people coming and drinking with the medicine to deepen their spiritual practice or even learn more about the way things work in the universe.

I think that healing is definitely- one focus, but it’s because of the situation which we’re in as a society. But I’m envisioning, let’s say 20 scientists coming here to my retreat, like 20 physicists, and just drinking ayahuasca and sitting in circle and just, like, brainstorming some big problem about something quantum physics related.

I think that once we start seeing medicine as a tool for exploration in in also scientific sense, I think that’s where we can become a next level society. But yeah, I’ve definitely got- I, I actually totally agree with that. I actually totally agree with that. What I was… The nuance in what I was saying was, like, need it.

Yeah. I don’t think it’s needed necessarily. It’s like you said, a tool for growth. And that can happen outside of it, and then you pop in when there’s those opportunities to grow in some way. Yeah. And I think that’s a beautiful vision that you have around having those people down. I’ve had similar ones, and I’ve had a couple of really cool leadership experiences with some founders and some teams that have gone through some, some s- some low-dose stuff.

And it is- … really powerful when that group mind comes together around a problem and- … and to see how the medicine supports it and guides it and is an ally in how it evolves from a place of truth, right? ‘Cause then you’re removing the ego from it- … in a lot of ways, which is what gets us in trouble, and people trying to be right all the time instead of trying to solve a problem.

I think your vision’s very beautiful. Yeah. So we’ll be curious to get, Get that like a scientific study. Bring… let’s say there’s a math problem that nobody- … can solve. Yeah. Bring in 20 mathematicians, give them a lot of ayahuasca, and just like they create this hive mind and they try to solve it.

That would be really cool. So- That would be fun … let’s manifest it. So on that positive note Corey, thank you so much for this episode and sharing your knowledge. Tell, tell the listeners where they can find more about you and about your work or, and any last last comments or wishes for the audience.

Yeah. Appreciate it, Sam. Yeah, you can find me mostly on my website, coreyfrith.com. This is where you can access me. I’m always available for a chat around this stuff. My… Where I kinda share most is on LinkedIn. I have a, a banned TED Talk that I share my story on, so you can check that out on YouTube.

It was banned from TED, TEDX, so it didn’t get approved, but I got the access to it and I published it, so that’s up on YouTube. And then yeah, my, my website’s like the most accessible point for people. There’s a little newsletter there that people can sign up for, a little community group if people are interested.

And in general, I just trust that people are gonna find me when they need it. Sounds good. Thank you for sharing. Guys, thank you once again. You’re listening to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, with you, the host, Sam Believ, and I’ll see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you’d like to support us and psychedelic renaissance at large, please follow us and leave us a wherever it is you’re listening.

Share this episode with someone who will benefit from this information. Nothing in this podcast is intended as medical advice, and it is for educational and entertainment purposes only. This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat. At LaWayra, we combine affordability, accessibility and authenticity.

LaWayra, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you.

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with Alexander Beiner. Alexander is an author, cultural commentator, co-founder of Rebel Wisdom, Executive Director of Breaking Convention, and author of The Bigger Picture. His work explores psychedelics, sensemaking, culture, and how transformative experiences and cognitive science can help us navigate the social and political challenges of the modern world.

We touch upon topics of

00:00–02:42 Alexander’s early psychedelic experiences, Psychonautica, and the online psychonaut forums before the current renaissance

02:42–07:10 The current psychedelic renaissance vs the previous one, psychedelic capitalism, and the risk of psychedelics being captured by late-stage capitalism

07:10–12:07 Can psychedelics still transform society if they go mainstream? The “psychedelic Walmart” question and the importance of containers

12:07–17:20 The argument from The Bigger Picture: psychedelics teach us a way of being, not just new ideas

17:20–19:23 Pain, truth, and the transformative power of going directly into what hurts

19:23–23:02 Culture as “people like us do things like this” and why changing systems is harder than changing individuals

23:02–24:17 Why society feels sick, and whether psychedelics can help us change fast enough

24:17–28:04 AI, abundance, Star Trek, space exploration, and why exploration may be humanity’s next frontier

28:04–33:45 The Imperial College DMT study, intravenous DMT, hyperspace, entity encounters, and the sense of entering a real ecosystem

33:45–36:17 Are DMT entities “real”? Consciousness, idealism, and synchronicities

36:17–39:26 Synchronicity, writing, manifestation, and how inner state affects what shows up in life

39:26–42:45 Responsibility, control, grief, and balancing personal agency with surrender to larger systems

42:45–46:07 Consciousness, truth, and how psychedelics shift Alexander’s worldview

46:07–49:32 Healing vs purpose, what we are healing for, and how to avoid spiritual bypassing

49:32–50:26 Where to find Alexander, his book, and his current work through Kainos

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to http://www.lawayra.com

Find more about Alexander Beiner through his book The Bigger Picture, his platform Kainos on Substack, and on Instagram under Alexander Beiner.

Transcript

Psychedelics vs Capitalism: Can Ayahuasca Really Change Society?

 

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Alexander Beiner: One of the things that psychedelics teach is that if you go into pain and really own it and be with it, it will transform and you will move through. If you avoid pain, you will be stuck. If we don’t wanna spiritually bypass, go into the pain and the embarrassment and the feeling small and the things that the spiritual bypassing is designed to get you, trying to get you away from.

Some entities don’t give a shit that I’m here. Some of them are really interested in me. Some of them I can’t trust, some of them I can trust. It’s like being in a jungle, right? If you’re stuck, just look for truth with a capital T. What is true, and our deepest truth is what is real for me in this moment.

To make something digestible to the existing system, you have to take the magic out of it, and you have to take the challenge out of it and the darkness out of it. The biggest hope we have with psychedelics is that they teach us how to be human beings rather than teach us what to think or what to do.

Psychedelics can be captured by our existing system, which you could call late stage capitalism. It’s a system and a worldview that sees quantity as more important than quality. We could live on heaven on Earth. We could do everything totally differently if we were different.

Sam Believ: You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast.com.

Hi, guys, and welcome to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, with you, the host, Sam Beliaf. Today I’m having a conversation with Alexander Beiner. Alexander is an author, cultural commentator, and a leading voice in the psychedelic renaissance. He’s the author of “The Bigger Picture,” a co-founder of the influential media platform Rebel Wisdom, and an executive director of Breaking Convention.

His work focuses on cultural sense-making, exploring how transformative experiences and cognitive science can help us navigate the complex social and political challenges of the modern world. This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat. At LaWayra, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity.

LaWayra, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you. Alex, welcome to the show.

Alexander Beiner: Thank you, Sam. Yeah, good to be here.

Sam Believ: Alex let’s start with your story. How did you get into this line of work?

Alexander Beiner: Yeah. I I think like a lot of people, I got into it really from having a very transformative psychedelic experience.

Actually, I would say my, my first experience, yeah, it was certainly transformative, but it really felt like a kind of this kind of connection and homecoming and a feeling of “Oh, wow, this is very familiar and very new at the same time.” I think there’s something really amazing about psychedelic experiences that they can feel like I’ve been here before somehow, but also this is totally alien and new and amazing.

So I had an experience, and then I became… It was actually a, a friend of mine this is in about 2007.

No, ear- earlier, so like 2006 maybe. Friend of mine who went by the handle Max Freakout, and he had a podcast, a early psychedelic podcast called Psychonautica, and this was actually like pre-social media. It’s right when Facebook began, right? So we were all on a forum, a internet forum called The Grow Report, and we used to just talk about psychedelics and philosophy.

This was also like actually pre really the psychedelic renaissance, which you could say started with Rick Strassman’s DMT book and DMT research and then really ramped up with a, a Johns Hopkins study in 2006. And so I was very influenced by that whole experience. I started my own podcast about visionary art.

And then, it was in this whole online community, where we never saw each other’s faces, and it was just words on a screen, but this real connection. And, yeah, I’m to this day still friends with some of those people. That was kinda my way in, was really through the almost like the thinking around it as well as the deep experiences that I had.

Sam Believ: So then you started very early, like pre-current renaissance. That’s very cool. And I’ve been on a couple forums myself back in the day. I think forums is, that’s what internet allowed us to do, just find very niche, nerdy topics and people, they get together and they go deep.

It’s lovely. So-

Alexander Beiner: Yeah …

Sam Believ: you mentioned the current psychedelic renaissance that started with Rick Strassman and then that study on the psy- mystical experience and the- … psilocybin mushrooms, and now it’s kind of full force again. Obviously it’s not the first renaissance. There was one with Tim Leary.

What do you think about how this renaissance is going, comparing it to the previous ones?

Alexander Beiner: Yeah. It’s a good question. I go in waves, honestly. Like right now I’m in kind of a down space in some ways, and the reason is because I’ve, not just me, but others as well have been making the argument that psychedelics can be captured by our existing system, which you could call late stage capitalism.

You could, you could… There’s many different ways we could frame it, but let’s say a system where the only thing that really matters is progress, growth, and creating value, right? The things that are measurable are more real than things that are experienced. So it’s a system and a worldview that sees quantity as more important than quality.

So like quality is your experience right now of listening to this, your experience of being alive. I would argue that’s the only thing you can say is real, and that’s when we take a psychedelic, we often really deeply connect to that experience in new ways, but our system doesn’t value that as much as it values what can be measured.

I, I did a documentary last year called Leviathan, where I really explored how this shows up in the modern world and in, in our systems and what we can do about it. But in- 2020 when a lot of investments started coming into the psychedelic world, I did a series of films about psychedelic capitalism, and there were a bunch of us who were really concerned about this, many of us.

And, one shout-out is to a short story that was published called “We Will Call It Pala.” Did you ever come across that? Did you see that? Really amazing kind of short story, but with beautiful kind of animation. And this is about… It was about 2020, maybe 2019, 2020, and it was a a, a kind of story of a young woman who has a deep psychedelic experience, then she gets into, pharma and medicine, and she’s like, “I wanna create a psychedelic retreat center.”

She creates the retreat center in some city in America, and then she gets investment. And then slowly what happens is that because of the forces of the market, she realizes “Oh, actually the retreat center over there is doing two days of integration instead of three, three weeks like I’m doing,” and then her investors are like, “Why don’t you do two days? You could do it online. You could do it with an AI tool. Why you have to have people? It’s so expensive.” So slowly everything gets chipped away and commoditized until eventually the dream is dead. And so i- it’s a lovely story really well done, and I think it really encapsulates how I’ve felt about the, the combination of capitalism and psychedelics.

And so it’s also complex ’cause psychedelics are trick- tricksters, and mysterious, and transformative, and deep teachers, and so they’re very powerful too. So it’s not black and white in my mind. And but I think we’re at a strange place right now where psychedelics have gone mainstream to some degree.

I wouldn’t say they’re like super mainstream. To those of us who are in the world, it feels like that, but I think when you talk to most people on the street about psychedelics, they’ve maybe heard about a study or they’ve seen something on TV, depending where you are, but it’s not that mainstream.

But it’s mainstream enough that you have Bryan Johnson is, like this longevity guy doing, live streaming his five gram mushroom trip. And, I have, the, the problem is to make something digestible to the existing system, you have to take the magic out of it, and you have to take the challenge out of it, and the darkness out of it.

And that’s for me, the big problem.

Sam Believ: Yeah. It’s it’s very interesting because, so I have one investor at my retreat who owns 10% of the business and, but he’s a friend of mine. He’s a silent investor. But I’ve had money offered to me prior and I have declined several times because I felt maybe there was not good synergy, so to speak.

But it’s like- … we do live in a capitalistic world, and like you do need to charge prices and pay the workers. And it does fro- from a retreat owner p- point of view, it is that very difficult balance where making money and business is this kinda like inherently a little bit greedy and oh, I need to like…

And a little manipulative state of mind. Like there’s almost- Yeah … there are other ways to do business consciously and you try your best, but still there’s like bargaining for prices and things like that. It’s just it’s an inevitability as opposed to the spiritual thing which happens to the medicine itself.

And i- in, in a way, as a, as the owner, I am the one that takes that painful part of managing the money so that the shaman can be like completely just clear. Like he just gets his money and he doesn’t need to worry about it, so kinda keeping it clean. But regarding like capitalism, obviously it’s not a perfect system, but it’s the only system that work.

And what I’m thinking is sometimes I’m in a ceremony and I’m… Obviously, I’ve been to this Ayahuasca world for years now, and I’ve had hundreds of ceremonies and like I do the podcast about, and I feel like I understand it pretty well, right? And then sometimes Ayahuasca’s like you think you understand me?”

“Do you really think and it just like kinda humbles me. So what I think is obviously it depends on what kind of psychedelic, but I think- I think you talk about as a Trojan horse, but maybe you talk about it from a different point of view. But if even through the capitalistic system, let’s say there’s like a Walmart of psychedelics and people just come and they get their experience, and let’s say it’s not optimal, don’t you think that eventually still somehow the psychedelics will prevail and they will seep through and convert people the way in the, into the positive till we reach that critical mass and maybe we can like build a new system, which like I have no idea how to look how it’s even gonna look like?

So yeah, it’s a pretty vague concept, but talk to

Alexander Beiner: me about that. No, it’s a really good question. I don’t know is the short answer. Like I, I have gone back and forth around that question many times in the last whatever, 20 odd years I’ve been in the field or more. And on the one hand there is something…

Okay, so there’s a, there’s like a spectrum we could talk about, right? So on the one hand you have the idea that psychedelics are totally like a blank slate, and that it’s really about set setting and dose completely, right? And then it’s like you could use psychedelics for warfare, you could use psychedelics for, maximizing your business.

You could use psychedelics for deep spiritual inquiry and deep, connection. Or on the other side of the spectrum, the psychedelics have a message that is specific. Ayahuasca in particular, in my experience, and psilocybin do, in, in a lot of ways. They have a spirit, they have a wisdom, they have a a way of teaching.

I think both are true at the same time. And when I was writing my book, “The Bigger Picture,” I asked, I think I interviewed, I dunno how many people I interviewed. Probably 30 people in the field. And then including just informal conversations and I asked every single one of them, “Where do you think the spectrum is?

Is it totally the psychedelics are influenced by what’s going on around or do they have some kind of internal message that they’re directing?” And everyone had a different answer, like every single person. There was no consistency. So I think it’s really one of the deep mysteries about psychedelics.

Now, I lean more towards, okay, let’s take your example of like a psychedelic Walmart, right? I lean more towards the idea that- experiences, the experience people might have in the Walmart can be very transformative and real. And in the moment, the medicine might tell them something that could really shift the system, right?

What it, the problem is what happens afterwards when they come out and they’re trying to interpret their experience. And imagine if it was a Walmart situation, the Walmart would be like, “Hey. Oh, really? Okay, the medicine told you need to give everything away for free? We think you should do another journey because we’re gonna make money for that, and we think you should maybe get a different message.”

It’s so that’s where the, there’s a conflict of interest that happens perhaps not in the experience, although that is also a thing. But in the container around it. That’s what I’m… For me, the psychedelic Trojan horse is that container, right?

Sam Believ: Yeah, obviously we all come into this world of psychedelics, and after having this blissful experience, we like think like it’s gonna change the world and it’s all only bright.

And then you start meeting shamans that are not good people, and you start thinking like how can it be that, they’re drinking the medicine, but they’re like, they don’t get it. And or people that even use it for dark things, right? So it is very, it is not as simple as, as it seems, but Yeah, I’m an optimism– I’m an optimist.

For some reason, even after having some experiences with things like that, I still see so much positive and I still see the potential of psychedelics to break the mold and then allow people to heal and grow. And if something can save our society, it would be psychedelics. Yeah. I believe you think similarly.

I say like you tell me the problem in the society, so not just like personally, but on the societal level, and I appreciate that you talk about that. But I like to say, “You tell me the problem in the society and I’ll tell you how to fix it with ayahuasca” . So- Yeah. Yeah … so tell us about that and maybe about your book obviously, ’cause that’s kinda what you talk about- if I’m correct.

Alexander Beiner: Yeah. Firstly, just to say yeah, I am also, I have hope, I would say. And and I also have a very deep respect and awe of psychedelics. And I had a, a mushroom experience what, four or five days ago, which was, the first in maybe six months, but really profound in a period where I’ve gone through a lot of grief, and it really has just been transformative.

And every time that happens, after however many ceremonies and journeys, I’m like, “Oh my God, thank you so much. This is incredible.” There’s nothing that does that. Nothing. I’m a breathwork facilitator as well, and breathwork is very powerful, but they’re different practices, breathwork has its own magic, too. But so just to say that first, but So the argument I make in the book about, to take your phrase like, show me a social problem, see how ayahuasca can fix it, I think yeah, for me, there’s a yes and with that, because there’s a few things.

So the argu- one of the main arguments I make in the bigger picture is that the way that psychedelics really transform us, or one way that I think is the most potent, isn’t just the insights. We feel– we focus a lot on the insights that we get, right? And the new perspective, which is important, but I think more important is that they teach us a way of being, and for example, one of the things that psychedelics teach is that if you go into pain and really own it and be with it, it will transform and you will move through. If you avoid pain, you will be stuck, right? That… And if… What… there’s a great there’s a researcher called Max Wolf who has this speculative paper about like a cognitive behavioral approach to psychedelics, who I think is really interesting.

And he says that, it might be that in day-to-day life, our psychological wiring is that we can avoid pain- And it’s just about less painful to avoid it than to look at it, ’cause we can distract ourselves, we can watch Netflix, we can drink, we can get into relationship. Whatever it is, right?

When you take a psychedelic, that flips upside down, and it becomes more painful to avoid something than to accept it. And for me, that is the main way that I have been taught with psychedelics. And for me, that, for example, in day-to-day life. I’m not saying I do this perfectly, by the way. I avoid a lot still.

But there are times where I go, “You know what? I’m avoiding this thing, and I know from the medicine journeys I’ve had that if I really just have some courage and look at it, and look at it maybe it’s embarrassing or difficult or I don’t wanna accept it because I have to do something about it.

Whatever it is, do it, because that is what I’ve been taught.” Now notice that’s different. That’s a way of approaching a thing rather than some idea about a thing. And so my argument is that the, the biggest hope we have with psychedelics is that they teach us how to be human beings rather than teach us what to think or what to do.

And so that, for me, is beautiful ’cause that’s freedom too, and so there’s a lot of cognitive science behind that, that like what you do even, for example the way that you– The way… There’s a researcher called Barbara Tversky, and she argues that the way we talk about ideas is using the same cognitive processes as the way we move through physical space, right?

So when I say, “Oh, this is a bit complicated, I need to take a step back.” Now you get a little hint, and it’s like, okay, actually my experience of hold on, too much, is physical, right? It’s the same thing. And so when you do a practice like tango dancing or walking across hot coals or having a deep psychedelic journey, you’re learning new ways of thinking as well, through the experience.

So that’s– And so I talk a lot about that and why that’s important in the book.

Sam Believ: Yeah. Yeah, it’s interesting. You mentioned pain, and I’m only now getting to a realization, like last few months I’ve been going through a really difficult personal experience myself. And what I realized that combining a lot of pain together with psychedelics, where you just sit through it and just get pushed like face in, there’s a lot of growth.

It’s like growth on steroids.

Alexander Beiner: Yeah.

Sam Believ: And yeah, it’s definitely part of it. But another part I think with Ayahuasca specifically I’m a big fan of mushrooms as well. But with Ayahuasca specifically, it’s Like I’ve felt this, And coming from an engineer, right? So I used to be an engineer, I used to be zero spiritual, but through psychedelics I discovered that feeling of God within.

And this just completely changes everything outside me, and then also this understanding of self-love. And I’m just thinking if we were to, let… It doesn’t matter which model or capitalism or some new system, but if somehow the psychedelics would truly be popularized, and let’s say tonight 99% of the world’s population would have a psychedelic ceremonial experience in a group, more traditional container, what would the world look like tomorrow?

Like I, I can’t seem to imagine that it would not become m- much better. Just seeing ’cause we have groups. We have three, four groups a month, and the comparison, the way they come and the way they leave, like everyone just becomes so much better. So it’s that optimistic sort of maybe a little childish dream of what’s the percentage of the people we need to give this experience to that it starts to actually transform the world?

I don’t know if you have any metrics around this.

Alexander Beiner: Yeah. I don’t have metrics. I’m always a bit skeptical when people have metrics for that because I s- I’m very interested in how systems work, and I think what’s often forgotten in that is that there’s you and me as individuals, and there’s you and me in a group, and then there’s you and me in a group as part of the many systems we’re part of.

The environment, social system, economic system. So let’s take your metaphor. Let’s imagine… I think in your metaphor, if everyone did a very well-held psychedelic ceremony at the level that they were able to experience, probably the world would change overnight because everyone would come out of that and go, “Okay, we’re going to create together systems that are different.”

Now, that requires everyone doing it to some degree. I don’t think everyone needs to do it, because I think at the same time there is a way in which… Okay, so- What I think needs to happen is culture needs to change, right? The good thing about that is that culture changes really quickly. There’s a, a, a writer called Seth Godin, and he has a definition of culture which I heard maybe a year ago, and it’s still– all year, I’ve– all through 2025, I tried to find a problem with this definition, hitting it from different angles, and I can’t find a problem with it.

And his is a seven-word definition of culture, which is, “People like us do things like this.” People like us do things like this. That’s true of a country, it’s true of a, a family, it’s true of a, a group of friends even. And so if you break that apart, people like us, that’s like the, the, the values, the state of being, the identity, all of these things, that can really change with psychedelics.

The tricky thing is the next stage of what do we do, and so you need the culture. You need a mix of people. You need engineers, you need, people who do, who create art. And I think that’s the thing that I’m most excited about, is that we– psychedelics open a, a doorway into hey, we could do th- things completely differently.

That’s always for me been the thing. I took them the first time, had my first mushroom experience, and I was like, “We could live on heaven on Earth. We could do everything totally differently if we were different.” So I still believe that, for sure. The tricky thing is that the systems we’re in perpetuate themselves.

So when you try and dismantle, say, capitalism, you try and dismantle– even a, think about a family system. The family’s always– let’s say there’s a family that never talk about stuff that’s really serious, if you go into that system, say one person has an ayahuasca journey in that family, and they come back, and they’re like, “Guys, I wanna start talking about stuff.”

Because they’re right. It’s gonna be more healthy. It’s gonna be better for everyone. They are going to have a very hard time because the system does not want that change. Now, they might have the courage and energy and sophistication to figure out how to elicit that change. But if you go, you– maybe people have had this experience.

You have a big experience, and you come back and you’re telling everyone about it, and they’re like, “Ugh, it’s too much.” Because the system ne- there, there’s some clever way, I think, and this is what I think about all the time, like how do we be really smart about the changes, and so that’s– I don’t have an answer to that, but I’m continuously experimenting with that.

That’s my, it’s like my kind of life mission. I’m like, what are the ways that we can change, like people like us, and then doing things like this?

Sam Believ: That’s the thing, right? The, this let’s take family system as an example. If they all had a psychedelic experience, then boom, the system can change very quickly.

But then you can’t really force people to do it. So that’s… I kinda understand now why they wanted to add LSD to the water supply, right? ‘Cause it- … that, that would make it fast. Yeah. I definitely don’t have the answer, but it’s a nice topic to think of because our- the society’s definitely very sick and, And there, I can’t seem, I can’t seem to think of other ways to make the change quick enough in a way so we don’t destroy ourselves.

Alexander Beiner: Yeah. W- well, one way is radically changing the systems. We’re probably not gonna do that unless we have to, though. So then you get people who are, like, accelerationists, for example, who were like… A… For example, they say “Okay, if AI is gonna radically tr- completely upend all of the system we’re in, let’s make that happen as fast as possible.”

There’s a logic to that. I think there’s also problems with that. So yeah, this is the biggest question there i- these are the biggest questions that no one has the answer to right now.

Sam Believ: What do you think about AI? Let’s say AI goes into a positive direction, and instead of Terminator movie kind of- scenario, we have all of the physical, boring, repetitive work has been taken care of. AI, there’s unlimited abundance. Everyone has enough to eat, clothing. And w- I was thinking about it, the people will have nothing else to do. So of course, art and writing books and stuff like that, that’s great.

But I think the, the spiritual exploration is the last frontier, and that’s why maybe then everyone just can just come and just drink a lot of Ayahuasca and just get en- enlightened. What do you think about that?

Alexander Beiner: Yeah, it’s interesting. I think what resonates with me around that is the idea of exploration.

What do you do when… look at “Star Trek,” right? What do you do when everything’s sorted? You can synthesize food out of nowhere. We’ve got world peace. You explore. You go to the edge. We always wanna go to what’s unknown, right? So once, once we hopefully figure out how to live together and how to create fairness at a decent level, and love then it’s immediately as a human being, it’s curiosity.

So yeah, psychedelic exploration, but also building spaceships, for me, that’s one of the really sad things about the 20th century, is that we had this moment where it’s like, “Yeah, we’re gonna go, like we go to the Moon. We’re maybe gonna go to Mars.” And because of our own political and social bullshit, we didn’t do that really.

We’ve been to the Moon a bunch of times. Mars will… we… That should be for me, I read a lot of science fiction as well but I’m like, “That should be…” That’s the most exciting because we don’t know. Or if, or, under deep under the ocean or deep into consciousness. Yeah, so I agree with that.

Exploration is the next stage.

Sam Believ: Yeah. This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat. Most of LaWayra if you’ve been listening to this podcast for a while. Some of you might have already been to LaWayra before. For those who don’t know us yet, we started LaWayra four years ago. At LaWayra, we combine authenticity, accessibility, and affordability.

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L-A-W-A-Y-R-A.com. I when I grew up, I got obsessed with reading adventure books, specifically like there’s a ship, and they go, and there’s an inhabited island, and they need to recreate the civilization. That, that kind of feeling, or like finding a new continent and stuff like that. And I re- and in one year, I read the entire supply that the library had of those books.

I was addicted.

Alexander Beiner: Where did you grow up, Sam? Where was that?

Sam Believ: I grew up in Latvia.

Alexander Beiner: Oh, cool. Okay.

Sam Believ: Yeah. And in front of my bed, I had a world map of the world, and then one day… so I finished all the adventure books, and I was like, “I need more of this. Give me more of this feeling.” And so she gave me…

the li- librarian gave me a book about space, like kinda kids science fiction, and I read a few of them, and then I kinda lost interest. I think the language was too complex or something. But I remember like looking at the map and understanding that everything has been discovered, like there’s nothing left to discover, and then the, the last frontier is space, same as you’re saying, so that’s kinda was I was thinking.

And I’m… i’m… I worked on ships, right? I was a marine mechanical engineer, so even in my profession, I ended up kinda like exploring in a way. And then when I found ayahuasca, I was like, “Yes,” like I just realized there’s this unlimited exploration that is… You can access worlds that are more complex than this reality altogether.

And then, Not just spiritually meaning oh, let’s find God or gods or whatever, but also I do believe also you can encounter entities or alien minds and stuff like that. And you were a part of this DMT study in Imperial College, And that’s kinda using psychedelics To, okay, let’s explore this DMT realm.

Not… Because obviously we largely focus on psychedelics for healing, personal or societal. What about that exploration? What, what have you guys found?

Alexander Beiner: Yeah. I was lucky to be one of nine participants in the dose finding section of that trial. So they needed experienced psychonauts to figure out the right dose and delivery method for intravenous DMT.

So we were injected for 30 minutes, and the experience lasted about around 40 minutes. ‘Cause obviously, like when they stop injecting, you’ve got the DMT still in your system, and it was very profound. And the biggest lesson I had is I went into it with this duality in my head of, inner growth work, which I’ve done a lot of, and I’ve trained as a counselor and I do a lot of group processes, with and without psychedelics and a lot of therapy.

And I was like, I said to the study cor- people running the study, I said “Hey, look I’m doing this ’cause I want to go into hyperspace. I want to explore. I’m not really interested in doing more like, my childhood and everything.” And so the first dosing is all about my childhood and I was like, oh my God.

But it was also transcendent and hyperspace and entity c- encounters and really exploring totally new territory. And the final dosing actually was very much… The first… The thing is, when it’s injected, I’m guessing a, a lot of people listening will have experienced Ayahuasca. It’s not s- Ayahuasca you could say chemically is extended state DMT to a degree.

However, you also have the teaching and presence of the vine, which is, it’s, which I’ve sat with just the vine before. And I have some sense, it’s very mysterious, but I think they act in synergy. But I would say the teacher was in the DMT in this experience for me. I really had a similar teaching.

It was just cleaner and more ev- all the, also, even the visuals were very crisp and very precise, but it’s immediate, right? So when you smoke DMT, you’re lying on a hospital bed in a hospital, and you have in one arm a cannula, so in your veins, and that’s called the DMT pump.

In the other arm, they’re taking blood every, I think it was every two minutes to then compare. And so the worst part was waiting for the injection, ’cause they didn’t tell us when, ’cause they didn’t wanna mess up the data, that if we knew it was… I figured out what time it was by the fifth dosing, so I knew.

This is actually a little bit easier for me. But then it immedi- you feel this kind of cold sensation in your arm, and then immediately it’s like you vaporized as much DMT as is possible to vaporize. And so from zero to completely in the experience. So if you imagine going from how you are sitting right now to the deepest Ayahuasca journey you’ve ever had within two seconds.

So that was, I did a lot of training to prepare for that shift, and also really inspired by Terence McKenna, ’cause he said that, he would go into DMT space and entities would say, “Don’t give way to amazement,” right? So just don’t be disoriented so much that you can’t pay attention. And that’s what I really trained.

But, the first minute or two for all of us, because we have the data now, like our heart rates like doubled and we all, it’s just it is just so intense. It’s just a state change. But then after about a, I don’t know what it was like, let’s say in 90 seconds, it, the heart rate dipped down.

And my experience of that was that I entered the space and then I was just present, and sometimes I actually shouted like, “Hello? Like anyone here?” I always was in this like waiting room area, which is very common in DMT, like just a void. And then I was like, really in adventure mode, really, because I was like, “Okay, I’ve got 40 minutes.

There’s so much I want to explore. I don’t wanna stay in this space the whole time.” Sometimes I had to stay in that space to go through some personal baggage, and then I would transition. And what I really learned, or at least my experience of it, was that there is no separation between going into these other dimensions and who you are.

Like they’re related to each other as well, right? And so you, wherever you go, you, there you are, right? So you’re bringing your baggage with you. Actually the, the teaching presence, as I call it, like the DMT, the spirit, whatever you wanna call it, said to me like, “Hey, you have too much baggage right now.

You have to pack your bags before you go into the trip.” So that’s the, what we’re doing now, whether you like it or not. And then below, by the fifth dosing it was like, “Okay, your bags are packed.” And then that was, I write about it in the book at the end, like that was a really the one of the deepest experiences I’ve ever had, and really an experience of exploring the nature of the many different realms we go into.

And the biggest thing in that was that I had so many different types of entity encounter in a space of 10 minutes, that I suddenly was like, “I think this is an ecosystem, and there’s different ecological niches in the ecosystem.” And then it– I got this message of “Yeah, that’s it. That’s, that…

And you’re a part of it as a human being. You’re also part of that.” And then I was like, “Oh, shit, that’s so interesting,” because some entities don’t give a shit that I’m here. Some of them are really interested in me. Some of them I can’t trust, some of them I can trust. It’s like being in a jungle, right?

And the other message I got, or the sense I had, is that with this technology, I was, like, parachuting randomly into a part of the jungle, and I’m sure people with more shamanic training, there’s a bit of intention setting to where you’re gonna go, right? And if you have a cosmology that helps you do that, great.

But I was in a hospital, and it was almost like gung ho “Let’s fucking– let’s see what happens.” It was incredible, though. It was really incredible. Yeah I think it’s a, an amazing technology, and it was also very healing for me.

Sam Believ: So basically, if I understand correctly, you think that those, those entities they’re outside of you and they exist in another dimension, and there’s this ecosystem of them, and we’re part of them because we can also access those states.

And do, Does that, is that correct?

Alexander Beiner: Yeah. It’s really, it’s complicated, right? I think that our model of reality can’t really give us a good answer to that question because in the same way that we know that physically everything is interconnected, so you and I, on some level, are of the same substance, right?

Similarly there, where I think the entities are simultaneously part of us and archetypal and really rooted in our own perception, and exist independently of us. But I actually think that about consciousness in general. I think that about all things. So it doesn’t necessarily contradict my view of reality, which obviously the, all my experiences have, made me rethink many times, but the weirdest experiences I had on that trial, which I didn’t write about in the book, were synchronicity experiences between the dosings, which were so intense and so inexplicable and so specific that, and verifiable, that I was like, “This is way more confronting to my model of how reality works,” than anything I experienced in the experience.

And actually speaking to Bernardo Kastrup was helpful. Do you know Bernardo Kastrup’s work? Have you come across him? He’s a really impressive dude. He’s, I think he has two PhDs, one in computer science and one in philosophy, and he is a philosophical idealist, so his position is that everything is consciousness.

We’re all within one single mind, effectively. And he was really helpful when I asked him about this. I was like, “How can synchronicity be?” He was like it doesn’t make sense if you think everything is linear, and then something happens that’s super interconnected in an impossible way.

But if you see it as everything is interconnected already, then when something hyper interconnected happens, it fits in that model. And most of the time things just seem linear because you’re not seeing the big picture,” right? Or you’re not tuned in. But I think DMT, in my experience, does something on whatever level that opens us up to synchronicity in a really profound way.

I don’t know if you’ve had those experiences, after lots of ceremonies, for example.

Sam Believ: My life since my first Ayahuasca experience is one big synchronicity. Even the retreat that I run started itself, and I, it’s a, it’s an entire episode in itself. Like- synchronicities, like seeing stuff and then having it happen and needing something and then universe delivering.

It’s at the bizarre level. As I like to describe people… Pe- when people ask me “How did ayahuasca change your life?” I like to say that I was going in this direction and it just changed my direction by one degree, and then, and I ended up in a totally different place.

But specifically in me, it changed something where I just started to believe in my ability to manifest things, and, like-

…

Sam Believ: Manifestation, I guess- is part of it. I don’t know, I don’t know if you ever think about it, but-

…

Sam Believ: Creating, you create something in your mind and you put it out there, and you kinda hold that thought, and eventually things just fall in place.

I don’t know if you if you’ve learned anything about that.

Alexander Beiner: No, but yeah, definitely. And, I think it’s fascinating. I think there’s a lot of truth to it. And, what I’ve noticed as a writer is that the more thought and emotion I put into writing, the more synchronicities happen that are similar to what I wrote, which is really…

And especially fiction. But also there’s an, it sounds like you had, a difficult recent time. I did as well. Last year was very difficult on a personal level, and there was a time where I couldn’t really write properly. And that’s pretty much what I do. I have a Substack, is my main, output and I constantly writing about culture and and being embedded in the world.

And I just was Going through such a difficult time, I just could- I just wanted to retreat from the world, and then I also was just finding it difficult to write. And what I noticed, my first piece I wrote this year, a few days ago after my mushroom trip, the whole energy of it was different and the response was different.

The pieces I was writing when I wasn’t feeling right, I was manifesting something different. And it’s so interesting because, my skill level, and this would be true for anyone who has a skill, I’m still in a, a professional writer, right? And someone who is like a sports person, if they’re having a bad day, the, a basketball player or a football player who is having a bad day in football is still 10,000 times better than I am at those sports, right?

And yet they could be losing matches because something’s off inside them, right? And so there’s something really interesting about just the energy you’re bringing to it, and it changes everything. Even think, I have a mentor who always says that, And maybe this is an interesting thing for you to hear since we’ve both got similar experiences of, wanting f- retreats to fill up.

He said that if a retreat isn’t filling up, start talking about it a lot with each other. Start just planning, talking, being creative around it, and then suddenly, interestingly, you start getting ticket signups, and I’ve noticed that it’s weird, if you bring it, the right energy to it, that can really start to happen.

You start bringing it into the world and speaking it into the world.

Sam Believ: Yeah. This, this mindset is bo- both empowering and also terrifying because all of a sudden everything that happens around you is your responsibility. And it’s good because you can do something about it. But at the same time, sometimes you’re like I’m not really directly connected to- US invading Venezuela and Venezuela being close to Colombia, I’m also…

I’m not really responsible for Americans not knowing enough of geography to think that it puts them in danger by traveling to Colombia. Yeah. But at the same time, I also understand that there is this deeper spiritual context like it’s when your energies are in the right place, things just fall in your lap so much easier,

Alexander Beiner: yeah.

Sam Believ: I would say- Yeah, I’m still trying to understand that, and I’ve felt it in ceremony, and I’m constantly trying to raise my vibration, so to speak to have good things come to me. But it’s yeah it’s challenging. Even just to ki- it’s kinda like almost assuming godlike position in your own life.

It’s like I’m the boss. I’m the one responsible. I can fix it. It came to me in a ceremony a couple times where I’m in the ceremony and I go super deep and it starts to become dark And then I’m regressing to my childhood self, and I’m this poor, sad lonely, abandoned child, and I feel cold, and I’m like, “Oh my God, who’s gonna come and save me?”

And then there’s this realization, I can save myself, and I start tapping on myself and chanting, and I’m raising my own vibration, and then I have this blissful experience with so much learnings. Just like how can you do it day to day in the real life? Just remind yourself.

Alexander Beiner: Yeah. No, I think it’s a huge topic, and it’s one I’ve…

I explore all the time in myself. I, my take on it is that the problem with the law of attraction came when it became associated with a particular type of consumerist individualism, where it’s like you can, just you, who’s not connected to anything else, can manifest. But the reality, my perspective, is that as human beings, we are individual, but we are simultaneously part of a deeper systems.

Many deeper systems that run through us, that we’re part of. And so to use your Venezuela example, it’s like you don’t control that. And I o- I sometimes imagine imagine there’s eight billion light bulbs on the planet. Now, some of those light bulbs individually shine brighter than others at different times.

But imagine there’s 300 million light bulbs shining a particular color, and you as one or even 1,000 or 10,000 light bulbs are trying to shine a different color. They’re gonna outshine you because you’re part of a bigger thing. And so I think there’s a humility that also comes with it where… And this is something, this is like catharsis, where you can’t always save yourself.

Sometimes you need to ask for help. Sometimes you need the divine intervention. And it’s, I think both are true at the same time, in my experience. I think grief and loss really brings it up, where you’re like, you’re not in control. Sometimes you’re really in control. Sometimes you’re really not in control.

And w- I think we have to be able to hold both of those things at the same time.

Sam Believ: Yeah. There’s still lots to learn and I think that I myself am going through this. So our motto of my retreat, it’s called LaWayra, is connect, heal, grow. It’s like you connect first to God, universe, medicine, yourself, and then you heal, and then you grow.

And I’m kinda now, I would like to believe in between the healing and growing, that transition where it’s less about myself and more about both helping others and also, like, exploring deeper spiritual levels. Because last few months, I’ve been drinking medicine for five years regularly, and last few months it’s been The, even the connection with the medicine is deeper, and so much stuff is coming up, and larger synchronicities in life as well with information coming.

Even this conversation. The, the right conversations are coming at the right time. Yeah it’s just exciting. It’s exciting to see what, what comes up. And as you say, cosmovision or worldview, continuously refining that worldview. K- going from abandoning the previous one to understanding the, the new one.

And I’m building that worldview, bits and pieces from all the conversations that I have, including this one. So yeah. I don’t know if you wanna talk about that, your own worldview and how it changed and especially what was the biggest, influence, Yeah … in that change?

Alexander Beiner: God, I think in, for me, a big thing has been really around the role of consciousness. I think theoretically, I’ve always been more like panpsychist, so seeing consciousness and matter as the same process, right? Consciousness is everywhere and a fundamental part of the universe. But I think my psychedelic experiences they make that a lived experience rather than just an intellectual exercise.

So that’s one big one. And then I think probably- I, and this is maybe also due to this, the work I’ve done outside of psychedelics, but something about my experiences has really led me to an orientation to truth being the most fundamental thing that there is. And I remember having a mushroom experience in a very difficult time in my mid-20s, and I was all in a loop, tangled, and there’s the, the mushroom was just like, “Hey, if you’re stuck, just look for truth,” with a capital T. What is true– And our deepest truth is what is real for me in this moment. Not what do I think I should feel, not, how should I behave for other people, but what is actually true. And I’ve– every time, what I find is if I go into that place, then I grow and transform, and I I have a relief, and so I think human… carl Jung talked about this a lot as well as human beings we are deceiving ourselves all the time. And my experiences on psychedelics are the moments where I’m not deceiving myself. And I think the thing I’m most grateful for is where I can take that insight or way of being and bring it into my life, my work.

And then the other thing I think is important, you spoke to it a bit, is like once we– like we can spend all our lives healing. There’s always something we can find to heal from, right? It’s a kind of like recursive loop, right? But I think what’s important is once we feel healed enough, what are we healing for, right?

This is why I have a problem with the wellbeing framework, like with just the word wellbeing. What are we being well for? We need a, an objective that is gonna make the world better than we found it in some way, and I think that’s a really important thing, so that’s always a tricky thing, too, because we often approach these experiences through healing, and like you, I’ve seen the most incredibly beautiful healings that I would never wish someone didn’t have, I think that’s really important. And then what I’ve also noticed is that, when people have done enough ceremonies, they’ve done enough inner work, then they have a yearning to “Where do I apply this? How do I bring my gifts into the world?” And that’s something I’m really interested in, how do we actually make that bridge between going to retreat or, even going to some kind of one-on-one therapy, whatever, to actually doing something in the world that shifts it.

That for me is like a big question right now.

Sam Believ: Yeah. I guess it’s the topic of integration or on the opposite side, spiritual bypassing. I know you talk about that as well. So how does one avoi-avoid the bypassing?

Alexander Beiner: I would say by going into pain. The actual book, “Spiritual Bypassing” by, I think it’s Robert Masters, he…

The, the point he makes in it is spiritual bypassing, and maybe all bypassing and avoidance psychologically, is to escape from pain. So sim- similar to what I said before, if we don’t wanna spiritually bypass, go into the pain, and the embarrassment, and the feeling small, and the things that the spiritual bypassing is designed to get you, trying to get you away from.

Spiritual ego, grandiosity, thinking that the entire world is a conspiracy out to prevent, light coming out. Like, all of these things, in my view, while there might be elements of truth to them, are ways of avoiding different types of pain. Pain of being insignificant, pain of being alone, pain of mortality, all of these different things.

So I think when we go into the pain, then we get away from the bypassing, ’cause we’re doing the opposite of bypassing. We’re going in, right? And the other thing with it is that you need a community around you of reflection. You need friends and people in a… Or people in a, spiritual community or some kind of community that can go…

spiritual communities can be tricky and s- you know, and so can friend groups, because sometimes people don’t say the thing that you should say, you need the right kinds of relationships where someone can go, “Hey, man, you’re being an asshole,” or, “Hey, th- this is… You’re going way too far with this idea, you need to chill.

Here’s another perspective I wanna share with you.” Still up to the, it’s up to us to really listen to those messages. But I like this rule of if you hear it three times from the outside world, then start thinking maybe it’s might not be still, but if you hear it five times, or six times, or seven times, the same reflection from different places, which maybe we get in relationship or we get wherever it is, then it’s probably you, and then that’s something we can work on, so I think there’s ways to, there’s ways to do it, for sure.

Sam Believ: Yeah. There’s lots of work to do and yeah, thank you for this conversation. I know you have to run soon, so let’s wrap it up. I think it was very interesting. So tell the listeners where they can find more about you, your book, and yeah.

Alexander Beiner: Yeah. Thank you for having me on.

Yeah I enjoyed it. So my book is called The Bigger Picture: How Psychedelics Can Help Us Make Sense of the World, and you can find that on, yeah most bookshops. It’s on Amazon and Audible as well. And then most of my work at the moment is through my platform, Kainos where I make films. Did a documentary last year, and I regularly put out articles.

So that’s on Substack, K-A-I-N-O-S, or alexander_beiner on Instagram. You’ll find a lot of the stuff I put out there as well.

Sam Believ: Thank you. Guys, you’ve been listening to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, we’re your hosts, Sam Beliv, and I will see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you’d like to support us and psychedelic renaissance at large, please follow us and leave us a wherever it is you’re listening.

Share this episode with someone who will benefit from this information. Nothing in this podcast is intended as medical advice, and it is for educational and entertainment purposes only. This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat. At LaWayra, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity.

LaWayra, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with Ronan Levy. Ronan is a pioneering entrepreneur, co-founder and former Executive Chairman of Field Trip Health, author of The Ketamine Breakthrough, and host of the Ronan Levy Podcast. A former lawyer turned innovator in cannabis, biotech, and psychedelics, Ronan focuses on scaling mental health solutions and exploring how altered states can reshape human wellbeing and consciousness.

We touch upon topics of

00:00–01:35 Ronan’s background, cannabis, ketamine, and entering the psychedelic space

01:35–05:11 From lawyer to entrepreneur, cannabis clinics, and discovering plant medicine as real medicine

05:11–09:19 The psychedelic zeitgeist, investment boom, and why the hype cycle has cooled

09:19–12:53 Psychedelics becoming normalized vs pharmaceutical models and the future of adoption

12:53–16:15 Alcohol, cannabis, psychedelics, and personal freedom vs societal responsibility

16:15–19:09 Capitalism, conscious capitalism, and market dynamics in cannabis and psychedelics

19:09–22:13 Running a spiritual business, money, ethics, and balancing purpose with profitability

22:13–24:13 Entrepreneurship as a spiritual path, stress, and personal growth through business

24:13–29:17 Wealth, success, and why money doesn’t solve deeper emotional or spiritual problems

29:17–33:52 Life as a game, meaning, productivity, and embracing both struggle and fulfillment

33:52–35:47 Relationships, self-awareness, and recurring life lessons

35:47–38:22 Cannabis vs psychedelics, product vs service, and different use contexts

38:22–41:22 Responsible use, set and setting, and personal vs ceremonial psychedelic use

41:22–43:01 Longevity, mental health, and what actually creates a long and fulfilling life

43:01–45:24 Psychedelics, neuroplasticity, and unlocking creativity and new perspectives

45:24–47:25 The future of psychedelics, community-driven models, and resistance to corporate commodification

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to http://www.lawayra.com

Find more about Ronan Levy at ronanlevy.com, on Instagram @ronandlevy, LinkedIn, and through his new project Fun Loving Company (@wearefunloving on Instagram).

Transcript

Ronan Levy: I describe being an entrepreneur as a spiritual pursuit because it’s always with you. You’re always thinking about it. It’s even if you’re not on your phone or in front of your computer, it’s in your mind somewhere, and it’s hard. You risk everything to make it work. You put your blood, sweat, and tears into it.

It becomes a part of your identity. All that work to hit this payoff moment, the day you get that big check, right? And you get that big check, and for an hour you feel amazing, maybe longer but for a short period of time you feel amazing. And then the things that you used to fight about with your spouse, you’re still fighting about.

Those things that trigger you about your kids still trigger you, and all of a sudden you realize that every single problem that you had mentally, emotionally, spiritually is still present. But now you don’t have that excuse. Now you don’t have that story of, “Oh, if I just get this, if I just sell my business, if I make a million dollars, then all of these problems go away.”

All of a sudden you don’t have that narrative anymore. Most entrepreneurs I know who have success hit a spiritual crisis at that point, and “What the fuck? I thought this would solve all of my problems, and they haven’t, and now I have no dream to attach, to hang my coat on anymore.” I don’t think the market for psychedelic medicine, psychedelic pharmaceuticals is going to work.

Just this doesn’t fit in the Western medical model. I think psychedelics just don’t get commoditized very well.

Sam Believ: You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast.com.

Hi, guys, and welcome to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, with you the host, Sam Belyev. Today I’m having a conver- conversation with Ronan Levy. Ronan is a pioneering entrepreneur and a driving force in the modern psychedelic movement. As the co-founder and former executive chairman of Field Trip Health, Ronan held one of the world’s first and largest networks of psychedelic-enhanced therapy centers.

A former lawyer who pivoted into the cannabis and the biotech industries, Ronan had dedicated his career to scaling medical innovation. He’s the author of The Ketamine Breakthrough and host of the Ronan Levy Podcast, where he explores how non-under- ordinary states of consciousness can redefine our understanding of mental wellness, success, and the human experience.

This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat. At LaWayra, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity. LaWayra, connect, heal, grow Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you. Ronan, welcome to the show. So before we jump in the, the meaty part, let’s talk about your story. What in your life brought you to work with I think cannabis first and then ketamine, and now you’re constantly evolving and progressing.

Tell, tell us a little bit about that journey.

Ronan Levy: Yeah it was an unexpected journey. I think when I graduated high school, I probably would’ve been voted the least likely to start a cannabis company and the least likely to start a psychedelics company. I was not entirely straight edge, but relatively speaking.

I’m sure anybody who has done any work in the psychedelic space will have heard the common refrain from people of, I don’t feel comfortable losing control like that.” And I was certainly one of those kids. But I was also contrarian, I liked to cause mischief and all that kind of stuff.

And I started my career as a lawyer found it very dispiriting and terrible lifestyle so quickly got out. Went through a series of different kinda career changes, mostly within the practice of law, and then through that I ended up meeting some folks who would become my co-founders in a company called Canadian Cannabis Clinics, who were exploring different entrepreneurial ideas and were considering one in the cannabis space.

And they were hesitating on it. I’m like, “Why are you guys hesitating on this?” With- when it comes to cannabis, when you think about business, the biggest question is do you have product market fit? Does your product serve a need in the market that people are willing to b- pay for? And that’s always a hard thing to find, but when c- when it comes to cannabis, you know there’s no problem with product market fit.

People are demanding it all the time. So I’m like, “This is a great business idea. You guys are crazy if you’re not gonna pursue it, and if you’re not gonna pursue it, I’m gonna pursue it.” And after cajoling them for a while, even though none of us were cannabis fans really at all we started the company.

It did really well. We ended up helping probably close to a quarter million Canadians access the legal medical cannabis system in Canada. And through that experience it shift my pers- shifted my perspective. Up to that point, when people talked about plant medicine, I always put quotes around it, air quotes around it, because I’m like, okay, if you wanna get high.

I have no problems with that. But let’s not call it medicine. Let’s not try and whitewash it and give it something, some purpose that it doesn’t have. But through that work in the cannabis industry, I saw that cannabis was real medicine, that plant medicine was actually real medicine. And it opened my eyes and it changed my perspectives.

And after we left the cannabis space with this newfound open-mindedness to plant medicine we just happened to have a conversation with a person who alerted us to what was happening within the psychedelic space. And at that time, this was middle of 2018, and Michael Pollan had just published “How to Change Your Mind.”

MAPS had been granted the breakthrough therapy designation for their phase two clinical trials for MDMA-assisted therapy. And the thing that really tipped me over was the fact that there were four or five stores online selling mushrooms open web, not dark web, nothing along those lines. Just go www, and you could buy mushrooms in Canada.

And at that moment, I realized the zeitgeist around psychedelics had changed, just most people weren’t aware of it. The collective consciousness had changed its mind, but it’s taking a while to distribute that message. And and so we went out and we got a gram of mushrooms, tried mushrooms for what was the second time in my life, but the first time where I was sober enough to actually appreciate what was happening and realize the potential.

And so started doing a whole bunch of research, saw how not only could psychedelics have a profound impact on how we think about mental health, but for me, what was more motivating was how they could become a springboard for a lot of people to start exploring spirituality in our kind of world of nihilism and materialism.

I had gone through my own journey to discover my own spirituality, and I saw psychedelics as being a really cool platform to help other people reach that. And so that’s how I ended up in, in the psychedelic space and how we started Field Trip.

Sam Believ: Thank you for sharing that story. My story is somewhat similar because I went from being an, an engineer to a psychedelic enthusiast, and now I’m running an Ayahuasca retreat center and a psychedelic podcast.

But yeah, you could never predict that. I was never into drugs. I was never into spirituality. It just kinda like sometimes psychedelics just come in and pluck you whatever life you’re in and just puts you on this path, which is synchronistic and magical in itself. But- Yeah … to talk about zeitgeist in this period where Michael Pollan’s book came out and there was this hype and it was a, a bit of a golden era for psychedelics, and it kinda, kinda quieted down though.

Do you think it was just one of the waves and the more waves are coming, or do you think it’s kinda over? Especially I know you raised a lot of money for your ketamine clinic like basically like almost like the biggest amount ever, and there was all this investment and now it’s kinda like quiet again.

Like what, what do you… From your perspective, like what’s happening? Is it go- is it gonna come again or not?

Ronan Levy: I don’t think there’s gonna be a wave of excitement as it was, but I do think it’s in a much healthier spot right now. I think the wave the irrational exuberance that happened was a combination of the fact that a lot of people, and certainly the initial investors in Field Trip, had made a lot of money in the cannabis space, which had its own irrational exuberance, and so they were looking for the next thing, right?

And interest rates were still low, cash was still flush, people were chasing opportunities, and this had all, all the hallmarks. So I think that, plus the science being very compelling and cannabis rolling out around the world, people could see the chips starting to fall. And so I think that created an irrational exuberance.

Where we are now, I’ve got to the place where I don’t think the market for psychedelic medicine, psychedelic pharmaceuticals is going to work. Just this doesn’t fit in the Western medical model. A Compass Pathways and co- CMPS 360 might get approved, and we may see other psychedelics get approved.

We might see MAPS and MDMA get approved. That would be wonderful. But at the end of the day, I look out, and for most people who are trying, inclined to try psychedelics, you’re gonna have, and this is certainly what we experience at Field Trip, you can look and you can be like, “I’m gonna go sit in a sterile clinic with a doctor and do it in that environment for an obscene amount of money,” or, “I can go to a very well-experienced, well-credentialed, psychotherapist who has led many people through these journeys for a quarter of the cost without the restrictions.”

And I just think that most of the people who are inclined to explore psychedelic in the, medicine in the first place are gonna go down the path of, “I just wanna do it my way. I don’t really need a doctor when I have a qualified professional sitting beside me.” And so it’s a long-winded way of saying that I think psychedelic adoption is gonna continue to accel- I won’t say accelerate, but continue to grow.

I think psychedelics are become, gonna become a de facto normalized part of society, much like drinking a beer or having a glass of wine is. But I just don’t see that irrational exuberance coming in such a spike, that it’ll just be a every day a little bit more people trying it, more people getting used to it, more people going on journeys, more people going down to S- South America on Ayahuasca journeys, and it’s just gonna become a part of life, and I think that’s exactly where it should be.

Sam Believ: It’s like a market adoption of any, an- anything new, yeah. Psychedelics are kinda new for our culture and they but it happens in those booms and busts, and I guess ’60s was one of them. It’s somewhat different because for a period of time it was, it does happen that a new technology comes and then it gets banned, and then it gets unbanned, and then it gets banned again. So it’s a, a bit artificially constrained, but it was another boom and bust. But I think, Like from my point of view, I know that 8 billion pe- 8 billion people need it. So it’s like the question is, what, what adoption is gonna look like?

We don’t know. But you talk about, as normal as beer and and I know you like to talk about, but, alcohol is normalized, but it’s bad for you. It’s like kills people. My dad’s an alcoholic, my grandfather was an alcoholic, and if I didn’t find Ayahuasca, I probably would also be an alcoholic.

So cannabis is a much better alternative. Psychedelics even better. So what do you think it’s some things that shouldn’t be normal are normal and some, some things that are normal are not really that normal?

Ronan Levy: I think that’s a fair assessment. I don’t cast judgment on alcohol.

I think alcohol has done wonders for me. It– I was a m- very much an introvert, and through the social lubrication that alcohol provided, I learned to be an extrovert. I’m still an introvert, but I’ve gotten over my fear of kind of social situations and talking to people and all that kind of stuff.

I don’t have alcoholism in my family, so I guess it’s a slightly different context. But it’s I don’t know. I’ve come to the place of the world would be better off if we cared for each other, but also respected, the, the simple parable of mind your own damn business, right?

Let people do what they wanna do. Don’t ha- cast judgment. Be there to support them and help them as needed. And let’s stop being so puritanical about telling people what they can and cannot do and let people live them li- live their lives and learn. Obviously, I do come from a bit of an economic lens, which is when there’s extreme externalities and when the costs of people drinking is not absorbed by the person who’s drinking alone, then there should be some consideration about that.

But I’m just way too purit- puritanical. Even with the safety profile of psychedelics, everyone was like worried of if you take a laissez-faire approach to psychedelics, aren’t some people going to get hurt? And I know I I shock and offend some people when I say, “Yeah, and that’s okay.”

That’s part of life. That’s part of living, right? Nothing is risk-free, nothing is harm-free. Nothing has ever been that way. And so when we try to reduce the risk to nearly neg- negligible, all we do is create alternative consequences. And we can see it with the war on drugs, generally speaking, is that, okay, so you banned all these drugs.

It didn’t stop people from using it. As a result, what we have now is a whole bunch of drugs laced with fentanyl, because instead of just normalizing it and giving people access to it, whether they want it or not, you force it underground where there’s actually no constraints, no controls, no safety standards.

So I think alcohol has harms and it has benefits. Cannabis has harms and it has benefits. Psychedelics have harms and they have benefits. And everyone I think has just gotta make some decisions, hopefully informed decisions about that. And I think as a society, we just need there, instead of trying to puritanically ban things, provide more support for people who need help when those bad things happen.

Sam Believ: Yeah, definitely. Or at least get it to the balance where if alcohol is legal, then so should be cannabis, right? And that’s kinda already happening. And but yeah, everything is dangerous. Like I- I’m drinking water, but if I drank… Now just sit down and drink five liters, like that, that could kill me as well.

So you have to be- Totally … kinda trust people that they can make their own decisions and educate them. Be- because I kinda that model where you’re an adult and you have your body, and you can choose what you wanna put in your body or what you wanna do with your body without all the gatekeepers.

Ronan Levy: Yeah.

Sam Believ: You say

Ronan Levy: that- and just on that note and I recognize that’s not a perfect model, that some people are gonna be hurt. If you’re an alcoholic father, it’s gonna have an impact on your spouse and your kids. That’s true, and we should take steps to mitigate that harm.

But I don’t think we should be saying, “No, you can’t drink it. Alcohol is bad.” That’s, that’s- Yeah … where I land. Sorry, I interrupted your question.

Sam Believ: No, I’ll… it’s a good, it’s a good interruption. But so I, for example, I probably had, have about a, a beer or two every week, right? So I’m not like a pro- prohi- prohibitionist, and it’s- Yeah

nice when I do so. And I understand like my dad became an alcoholic because there was a certain moment in his life where the emotions were overwhelming and he wanted to run away from them, so he found alcohol because that was the only thing available in Sov- Soviet Latvia, right?

Ronan Levy: Yeah.

Sam Believ: I have had moments like this in my life where I was like, “I know it’s too much.

Like I, I need some external help.” And, but I had better tools. I had Ayahuasca, I had yoga, meditation. I had therapy, I had coaching. It kinda did not exist back then. So it’s like as long as you provide people with the tools- To choose from. It’s kinda like this mice, y- mice paradise experiment where they put the mice and they gave them cocaine.

They, they would keep pushing that lever. Or was it rats? But then they gave them a perfect place where they could be happy, and they stopped pushing that lever because now they had options. Yeah. I can do cocaine, or I can go hang out with my buddies. Yeah. So I don’t know if you have any thoughts on that.

Ronan Levy: Listen I think that’s reflective, and it’s okay even if the rats go back and every once in a while hit the cocaine, as long as we find that balance, right? It really is finding, the great Buddha, everything in moderation, including moderation. It’s, People will learn.

People will adapt. And, if you give them tools and information and a sor- and a safety net if they screw up, then I- it’s an imperfect outcome, but I think it’s the best possible outcome. Rather than trying to deny everything that can con- contain a potential risk or… we see it happening in Oregon and Colorado, which is none of those service centers are being really profitable.

None of them are successful because people are like, “Yeah, I could spend a fortune and go to a service center. I could go over here where I don’t have all the constraints or the expenses and have just a good experience.” And and I saw it with the cannabis rollout in Canada. It’s just like good intentions poorly implemented lead to bad outcomes is what I’ve seen through my life.

Sam Believ: This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat. Most of LaWayra if you’ve been listening to this podcast for a while. Some of you might have already been to LaWayra before. For those who don’t know us yet, we started LaWayra four years ago. At LaWayra, we combine authenticity, accessibility, and affordability.

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L-A-W-A-Y-R-A.com Yeah, I think in Canada what happened was cannabis was legalized, but the legal model was so complex that people still kept buying it from the street. Is that correct?

Ronan Levy: By and large, yeah. They set up a system where all the legal dispensaries had no way of competing with each other.

They could only buy from the same, distributor. They can’t sell anything else. They can’t have open windows, so it’s like, okay it becomes so generic that there’s no profit left in there. So all of the cannas- the cannabis dispensaries are being closed, and people are going back down to their dealers because it’s just cheaper, easier, faster, and they have better choice.

So it-

Sam Believ: Yeah …

I guess that’s the beauty of capitalism, right? Because people vote with their money, so if they didn’t like that model, they didn’t pay money and it just fell apart. Let’s talk about capitalism and specifically conscious capitalism. And you’re in that world and you raised money and you had successful exits.

L- just any- anything that comes to mind, c- conscious capitalism wise.

Ronan Levy: Yeah. I’m a capitalist because I think capitalism at its core is just a lot of… It’s about liberty, right? And you can do what you want and, and it creates an incentives for healthy competition which I think is net good for the planet.

But as with anything just like drugs and alcohol, it can be abused and create perverse outcomes, and we see that with what happens with the environment and profits at all costs. And I think if people just brought a, what I will call normal healthy lens of try to run a business, run it profit- profitably, run it ethically, treat your employees and your stakeholders fairly.

I think it… Again, it’s an imperfect system, but it’s the best we’ve come up with so far. And again, it’s I think people just need to respect their values and for some people, their values will be the shareholder model, which is like I believe in the shareholder model, which is accumulate as much wealth as possible for me and my shareholders, and that’s okay.

If that’s everybody, then I think we see what happens with it. That doesn’t work. But I think most people I know in business are ethically motivated. We just have a legal construct right now that doesn’t support it. So I think we just need to… Hopefully someone will examine the kind of corporate ethics laws and just say…

And we see that now a little bit with B Corps and all that kind of stuff, where shareholder maximization doesn’t have to be the only goal. That there should be other goals that are allowed that are perfectly consistent with the success of a business. So I think we’re getting there, and I think most people are waking up to that fact that unconstrained capitalism leads to bad outcomes.

Sam Believ: Yeah. It’s something that I think about a lot because obviously I’m in a, I’m in a business, but it’s a spiritual business, right? I run a I run an Ayahuasca retreat, and it’s… One state is on one side, you drink Ayahuasca and you’re spiritual, and you wanna basically give this experience to everyone for free.

But on the other side, you have 30-plus employees, and you have to pay them money, and you have some people that, not really shareholders, but as friends that invested money in my business, and I would like it to be good to them as well. And it’s this, in running a business, inherently there’s this, you operate on the competition, which is like there’s some greed in it.

And it’s, the emotions are basically on the opposite side. And me as the business owner, I have to I kinda get torn in two directions, and I have to find that balance and not… Because if I lean too much into the spiritual side, the business will fall apart. And if I lean too much in the business side, the, it will also fall apart because people will be like, “Yeah, you’re not in it for the right reasons.”

So I don’t know if you have any thoughts on that, like in your own previous experiences how did you find that balance?

Ronan Levy: Yeah. I think it’s actually very simple, which is anyone who says you should be doing this for free is being entirely disrespectful to you, right? It takes inputs into you, food, water, time, education, whatever, to be able to create an Ayahuasca retreat that’s safe and enjoyable and creates effect, right?

And so everything requires inputs and everything requires outputs. Money is one of those inputs we need. A lot of people have this notion of money being evil. And it can be very intoxicating. There’s no question about that. But money is just a medium of exchange, right? You don’t need money.

You can exchange your Ayahuasca journeys for a goat, that you need for milk and food. That’s perfectly fine. It’s just using dollars or pesos or whatever currency it is is a much more efficient way to do it. So anyone, just to your point, you have people, you have mouths to feed, you have families that you as a business owner are indirectly responsible for by making sure that your employees are paid a fair wage so they can put food on their table, right?

You’re respecting their time, and I’d expect people to respect your time as well. That doesn’t mean you need to charge and scrutinize and squeeze out every last penny and drive your employees to be the most efficient people that have no wasted time or anything along those lines. That means that you’re finding a balance, right?

Same thing with your investors. You gotta respect that they had to do work to have the money to put into your business, and you need to respect their money and make sure that they’re not… They’re getting a return on that, that they’re getting some output for their input. It’s, I think it’s very ethical to make a profit.

I think it’s unethical to ask people not to make a profit when it comes to this, because it’s just the way the world works. A- and I don’t mean to be glib about that, but everything requires inputs and everything creates outputs, and you have to find a way to incentivize that continued Process.

Sam Believ: I like your idea about charging in goats.

I think it’ll be better than US dollar because dollar keeps dropping in value. Like this year dollar dropped against peso by 25%.

Ronan Levy: Did it? Okay.

Sam Believ: Which means that all of a sudden… And we earn in dollars and we spend in pesos, all of a sudden we have 25% less money without doing anything wrong.

Ronan Levy: Yeah.

Sam Believ: And so w- now we need to increase the price just to keep up, and people don’t like because when you increase the price in spiritual space, it’s “Oh my God, you’re greedy.

What is wrong with you?” Yeah. Yeah, I’m changing my price structure to goats. Two goats for a retreat. Do you have any go- any goats?

Ronan Levy: I don’t, but I think I can dig up one or two. So let’s, Yeah … we’ll start trading in goats. But yeah, exactly. Life is complex. I think people think, in some ways life is very simple.

In other ways, life is very complex. And running a business is very complex. And anyone who has never started a business I don’t think appreciates just how difficult it is and how ongoing it is. It’s– I, I describe being an entrepreneur as a spiritual pursuit because it’s always with you. You’re always thinking about it.

It’s even if you’re not on your phone or in front of your computer, it’s in your mind somewhere. And and it’s hard. You risk everything to make it work. You put your blood, sweat, and tears into it. It becomes a part of your identity. It’s hard. It’s really hard, and I don’t think people who have never tried to start a business have any appreciation for just how challenging and complex it is.

Sam Believ: Yeah, I remember for a period of time when I was designing my cabins, I remember I was sleeping, and as I was sleeping, I was still, like, moving things around. My brain was still processing. So it’s like working even when you sleep. And it’s strange because you can’t really switch it off.

It’s… And it doesn’t really feel, it doesn’t feel bad. It’s just like you’re so passionate about it, you just can’t stop. Yeah. So on the topic of money and you’ve… you’ve been very successful in this space. I don’t really know much about capital and psychedelic space. I never really was in that.

I went to MAPS once and I kinda saw this side of it, but I’m a little bit more of a outcast with the more sort of Amazonian Ayahuasca retreat. It’s about money, but it’s not that, it’s not that corporate. But you’ve had several seven-figure exits, which is, basically is the definition of success in the capitalism world.

But you still say that, it does not ma- money doesn’t make you happy. And So what happens when… Talk to us about that, you get the external success and you, but you still need to do some work. Talk… Let’s go there.

Ronan Levy: Yeah, sure. Do you have kids, by the way?

Sam Believ: Yeah, I have three kids. One- Yeah … three, and five.

Ronan Levy: Okay. So you’re right in the midst of it. So when I was still a lawyer, I was working at a pharmaceutical company and all the women in the… Or sorry, all the people in the legal group were women, and they all had… Not all, most of them had kids between the age of 5 and 13 kinda thing.

And every day they would come in, and all they would do was complain about having to drive to skating lessons, and do this, and do that, and do this, do that. And then one of them one day asked me, “Ronan, do you wanna have kids one day?” And I’m like, “Based on what I’m hearing from you, absolutely not.” And they’re like, “Oh, but it’s so worthwhile.

When you see your kid skate for the first time, it makes it all worthwhile.” And I’m like, “That math simply does not compute.” And there’s just no way that makes sense. And then you have a kid and you understand, right? And all of a sudden you’re like, “Oh, I get it now.” I draw that analogy to business success and what I’ve seen consistently is, everyone tells you that money doesn’t make you happy.

It’s written into songs. It’s everywhere. Money doesn’t make you happy. Money doesn’t make you happy. And notwithstanding the fact that everyone understands it logically, intuitively, just like having kids, you don’t get it until you have money and then realize it never makes you happy. It does provide elements of happiness for sure, but it come…

what happens when you have a degree of success, when you achieve some degree of, say, like monetary freedom, you come to a place where all of a sudden you’ve worked your ass off to start a business, you- blood, sweat, and tears, years, lack of sleep, missing your kids, not being present, et cetera, all that work to hit this payoff moment, the day you get that big check, right?

And you get that big check, and for an hour you feel amazing, maybe longer. But for a short period of time you feel amazing. And then the things that you used to fight about with your spouse, you’re still fighting about. Those things that trigger you about your kids still trigger you. And all of a sudden you realize that every single problem that you had mental- mentally, emotionally, spiritually is still present.

But Now you don’t have that excuse. Now you don’t have that story of, “Oh, if I just get this, if I just sell my business, if I make a million dollars, then all of these problems go away.” All of a sudden you don’t have that narrative anymore. So you’re left with all of your problems, and the solution that you thought would solve those problems has now disappeared.

And so you… Most, most entrepreneurs I know who have success hit a, a, a spiritual crisis at that point. They’re like, “What the fuck? I thought this would solve all of my problems and they haven’t, and now I have no dream to attach, to hang my coat on anymore.” And that’s when you face that, and and you start to realize money doesn’t solve your problems.

Sure, it solves some problems, but not all of them. And you t- have to turn. And that’s why I think almost every entrepreneur I know has turned to psychedelics, because when you don’t have that dream anymore, you gotta find something else. And then when you turn to psychedelics, it just reminds you that everything you need is right with you already, that the things that actually matter, like your family, your friends, your spouse, your kids, the money was never a part of that story in the first place.

And so yeah, it’s again, money is great, success is great, but if you think it’s going to solve problems, the only thing it solves problems for is that you don’t have to sweat about making, m- the mortgage payment next month, but that’s about it. And I find also, and this certainly I fell prey to this as well, is like you end up buying more stuff.

And one of my favorite movies is Fight Club, and if you’ve ever seen Fight Club, there’s this great line about like that which you own starts to own you. And then all of a sudden you have this money and you’re spending it on shit that only provides temporary happiness, and it gets more and more expensive, and then you need more and more money to support the lifestyle of stuff that’s not actually giving you much more enjoyment in life and it can become very quickly a downward cycle.

You think it would actually make life easier, but in s- many respects, success can make life much more difficult if you don’t know how to manage it.

Sam Believ: Yeah, the… I not only watched the movie several times, I read the book, and the quote that I really like is, “We work jobs that we hate to buy stuff that we don’t need to impress people we don’t like.”

Ronan Levy: Yeah.

Sam Believ: It’s it’s so good. I I quote it a lot. And yeah when you get rich, then you start buying stuff, and then not only- It’s that stuff, but then you have to be afraid of losing it because somebody’s gonna take it away. And so I was never really rich like in a, let’s say, traditional US terms.

But I was rich by my country kind of terms, and I bought everything. I didn’t have no mortgage payment because I bought my apartment in cash because I was earning really good money. Like I, I would make more money in a day than an average Latvian makes in a month. So I quickly outgrew this like rat race.

And I was like… And as I looked at it, I was like as you get all those things, you should be happy, right? That’s what society programe- programs you to believe. And when I didn’t get happy, then I went traveling and eventually found Ayahuasca. And then I had a period of time where I settled down and I didn’t have a lot of money, but I had enough money to never work again and basically live a very humble life, so like an early retirement.

And what happened to me was all of the, Because of not having to constantly survive and not being busy, all of my thoughts and my traumas and my stuff caught up with me, and I became really depressed, and that’s what really brought me deep into Ayahuasca. I kinda logically understand it, but still sometimes I find myself like It gets too busy, like it’s too many problems.

I was like, “I should just sell this retreat and just just just do a podcast.” Or and I f- and I feel that, yes, if I get rid of all those problems, then I could be happier, even though I know and I’ve met so many people, like I’ve had friends that had eight-figure exits and they still were pretty miserable.

Just is there… Philosophically speaking, it’s like I believe the ga- the life is a game that’s uniquely rigged, so you cannot ever win it, because if you win in a game, you switch off the computer. So it’s like there are aspects of life like money or spirituality or for men specifically women, and for women men, that you just can’t solve, because if you were to be able to solve it, then you would lose interest anyway.

I don’t know if you wanna go there.

Ronan Levy: Listen I think it’s cheesy, but I think you win by just being able to play the game, right? There’s the quote from drawing a blank on it. A scientist, I think it was Richard Dawkins actually, who said “We get to die and that makes us the lucky ones.”

And and so like just being alive is winning. And then there’s a quote from my favorite author, Tom Robbins, who says, “Give me life, all of life, the miserable as well as the superb.” Which is if you can anchor yourself in a belief that this life is just to be experienced, maybe you’re supposed to learn something on a higher spiritual level.

But if you can just get to the place of this life is just meant to be lived, the good, the bad, the ugly, the beautiful, and just to be experienced and that just to be experienced, and that’s okay. Then all those things become like, “Okay, this is cool. This is hard as fuck. I’ve never done anything more stressful than X, Y, and Z.”

And be like grateful that you have the opportunity to be stressed out beyond belief. It’s a cool experience. And then, you can let it go and be like, “All right. I don’t wanna do this anymore.” So like at the end of the day, I’d… and I’d invite you to the same, if all the stress and stuff that you’re dealing with, if it’s not worth it for you, then I encourage you to stop.

But my, my sense is it’s still totally worth it. Would you prefer it to be less stressful? Of course. It all matters. I had this realization once and I still hold it to be true, not for everyone, but I’d say it’s nearly universally true, that humans have an innate desire to be productive.

We need to do things. We need to create value. We need to create meaning. We need to be meaningful to other people. And as long as that’s true, we’re always gonna be motivated to do something. And as long as we’re motivated to do something, we’re gonna encounter obstacles and hurdles and stresses and all that kind of stuff, and that’s just part of winning because you’re playing, period.

Sam Believ: Yeah. No, I never really considered seriously giving up. It’s not even an option in my sort of preset, but I, it’s, I’m just being open about that. Thoughts do come into my mind, like you said, this illusion of oh if only I could run away and have an exit, and it’s like all the problems would go away.

But- Yeah … but no I can see through it and I do believe that I embody that oh oh here’s another issue. Okay. I’m like what’s universe trying to tell me? What’s my learning in it?” I am really there, but it doesn’t make it any easier,

Ronan Levy: true.

Sam Believ: It’s,

Ronan Levy: It reminds me of Oprah, who has this quote of “Everywhere you go, there you are.”

And it’s easy to con- more con- it’s more easy to contextualize that in the context of relationships are hard. Falling in love is easy, but standing in love is hard. And then when you get to the point that you realize whatever issues you’re encountering with your current spouse, you’re going to encounter them with whoever the next person is most likely, because it’s not their problem, it’s your problem, it makes it a lot easier to stand in love.

Be like, “Oh, I could end this relationship. I could seek divorce,” but the next person is just gonna… the same problems are gonna come up, ’cause it’s me. And and so just being aware of that all of those things that we don’t like are within us, and then we have full capacity to change them or not, or work through them is, it’s quite liberating actually.

Sam Believ: Yeah, till you kinda learn the lesson it will just keep repeating itself. And then once you learn it, the new lesson comes out, and it’s a never-ending never-ending process of learning. I guess that’s kinda-

Ronan Levy: Yeah …

Sam Believ: the way life is designed. So let’s go back to talking about psychedelics. And you’ve been…

you became a, quite an expert in cannabis as well and then ketamine. So let’s talk about similarities and differences between cannabis and psychedelics.

Ronan Levy: In what context?

Sam Believ: We can talk about it from the use context. I know we talk about cannabis as a product and psychedelics as a service.

We can talk about it from a business context how different it is in in adoption. A- any way you wanna take it.

Ronan Levy: Sure. So I think I’ve changed my perspective. It’s I think I bought into some of the narrative around psychedelics. It’s like psychedelics can be as much a product as cannabis.

We’ve all been, at least me, being fairly new to it, was like, you have to be… I think it was Bram Rector who said this one thing. He posted on Twitter, now X, where he said “A psychedelic conference is the only place you can go to and spend eight hours being told by professionals how important set and setting is and mindset is, and then to walk out that same door and have someone hand you hey, you wanna hit on my 5-MeO pen?'”

kinda thing. And it’s just like- … I think we probably overdo the importance of the container when it comes to psychedelics. Depends on the, again, the context in which you’re doing it. But psychedelics can be a product as much as it can be a service. It’s certainly more oriented towards service than cannabis.

I think in both situations, the power of the medicines are more psycho-spiritual, emotional than physical, physically healing. At the end of the day, everything we experience is experienced through our brain, right? So if you can change the inputs and the outputs through our brain, then you can change the experience of just about everything.

So cannabis oft- very often is used for pain and I think it just shifts your connection to it. Similarly, like I’ve been struggling over the last year with a pinched nerve in my neck that’s causing pain down my arm. And the two most effective treatments I’ve done for it were the days that my wife and I did MDMA together and that the pain went away which just showed me that it’s much more psychospiritual, emotional than anything else.

I think another a- analog between cannabis and psychedelics is like the, the fear of them is just so disproportionate to the reality. That things can be done safely, without much concern certainly is true as well.

Sam Believ: Yeah. So I think psychedelics can be a product if it’s like a microdose or certain ones.

For example I’ve done mushrooms by myself, I’ve done San Pedro by myself, but Ayahuasca specifically, I’ve been in it for more than five years and I’ve done– I’m only now getting ready to be able to do it, to drink Ayahuasca by myself. Just there’s there’s a big difference between different psychedelics.

But Yeah, for sure … I think there’s definitely some, some ways of doing it and yeah, you– What do you, what do, what did you wanna say?

Ronan Levy: No, I was gonna agree. Yes, Ayahuasca is very different, but for example, taking mushrooms, like a gram or two of mushrooms by yourself, at a party, I think that’s totally fine.

Taking a boatload, five or seven grams of mushrooms, I would strongly encourage you to do it in a ser- a situation in which, you’re being supported properly. I’ve actually never taken Ayahuasca, so I can’t comment, but based on everything I’ve heard, yes, you don’t wanna take it as a product and just drop some Ayahuasca on an afternoon and see what happens.

So I think that’s entirely fair.

Sam Believ: Yeah, there’s there’s… and, especially if you’re experienced and you’ve had mushroom experiences before it’s okay to have a little bit by yourself or if you have in a group of friends. I think there is also merit to less ceremonial but more kinda recreational use of some psychedelics in certain settings if there is the skill present, like you know what you’re doing.

Because in the end of the day, like we have shamans here, right? We work with indigenous shamans, and they know what they’re doing. But it basically it’s a matter of skill. How much, how good are you at what you’re doing? And we can kinda get there as well. Like nobody’s born a shaman, right?

They become a shaman. So I also don’t wanna be like, oh, like only do it at the retreat setting. Of course from my business perspective I’m also biased. Oh, of course I’d prefer people to come and only come here. But if you haven’t done Ayahuasca, man, you should come do it with us.

And that’s… I wanna invite you. Sure. Because I think it’s very unique. And it might help you with your pain as well, because it’s a very… It’s not just mental. Ayahuasca is also very physical and somatic. So if it’s something psychosomatic, I highly recommend you come over. We… It would be great to have you over.

Ronan Levy: I’d love to check it out. Yeah. Where are you guys based?

Sam Believ: So we’re we’re located one hour south of Medellín, Colombia.

Ronan Levy: Okay, cool.

Sam Believ: Yeah. It’s it’s we’re in a… We’re not in the jungle, even though Americans think it’s jungle, but it’s more of a countryside. There is a lot of beautiful plants, and it’s…

We’re surrounded by nature, but no malaria, no anacondas, nothing like that. It’s a very… and there, there’s a hospital nearby. But at the same time, you do have connection to the earth. And we have an indigenous shaman, so it’s very traditional. You yeah, y- you just rebranded your podcast recently, and you started focusing more on longevity, on good, long, happy life.

In your opinion, what’s the role of mental health in a long, happy life and then in this case also psychedelics in that mental health?

Ronan Levy: Yeah. So I changed my podcast. It’s had a few different iterations. It’s now called the Ronan Levy Podcast, just because I realized I didn’t wanna be hamstrung to being talking about psychedelics or longevity.

I just wanna talk about whatever, whatever’s interesting to me. I think as near as I can tell from all the conversations I’ve had the secret to longevity is, in the words of George Burns, “Always have a reason to get up in the morning.” And and, that’s it. It’s like the, the secrets are pretty straightforward.

Eat well, sleep well, have a good social life, work on your mental, emotional, spiritual awareness and feelings. I think that’s it. People who are happier, people who have a community people who exercise, people who eat well and sleep well, those are the people who live the longest.

There, there really is no magic to it. It’s always been there. It’s always been pretty well-established. I think every society throughout history has known that pretty well, and we’re just super fortunate right now that the things out of our control, like the viruses, bacteria, some of those things, it’s like we have medicine to support that.

You do the rest pretty well and I’d say you have a pretty good shot of leading a long, full life.

Sam Believ: Yeah. So definitely like what I like to say is you can be super healthy and you can be a biohacker, but then if your mental health is not good, you can just have this perfectly healthy body and you just kill yourself, and then s- there’s no value to it.

So I think mental health is definitely very important. There’s this guy, Brian Johnson, that- Yeah … before even he did this mushroom thing, I was always hitting him up on Instagram. Of course, I he didn’t see it, but I was like, “What about mental health? What about mental health? What about psychedelics?” So maybe someday I’ll get him on the show.

But it’s good to see that now he’s trying mushrooms and opening up to that. So you say that psychedelics can help our species solve many problems we have as species. That’s something I personally am very keen on because as I like to say, you tell me a problem and I’ll tell you how to fix it with Ayahuasca.

So what is- … what is your view there?

Ronan Levy: N– I think psychedelics help lock– unlock creativity, right? They open us up to perspectives. And I think this is not just like a, a spiritual comment. I think we know that they induce what Robin Carhart-Harris has termed critical periods, right? Where you’re just more neuroplastic.

And so if we can unlock the constraints, if we can unlock our worldviews, if we can unlock our patterns of thinking, even temporarily, it opens up the potential for an infinite number of solutions that we may not have been able to see before. And so I think in many ways, your comment about, “You tell me your problem, and I’ll tell you how ayahuasca is the solution,” is probably correct a lot of the time.

But I think it’s really exciting to, to see what the possibility is. I’ve been reading Dan Brown’s book, “The Secret of Secrets” recently which is terribly written, but I’m always curious to see what he’s talking about. And a lot of that’s talking about noetic sciences and how, there’s only one collective consciousness and our brains just act as a receiver for it.

And things like psychedelics just change what we’re receiving, like the signal we’re receiving temporarily and maybe for longer term. And I think that’s probably true, and it just helps us access things that were inaccessible before.

Sam Believ: I think it’s definitely the fastest, one of the fastest ways to change that collective signal to be a little bit nicer.

Ronan Levy: Yeah.

Sam Believ: But obviously we’re not there yet. We’re quite far from it. I’m very excited about future, and I think if… not saying that ayahuasca is gonna fix everything, but it could be that psychedelics could be that catalyst for people to then start doing other things and actually changing, ’cause that’s what it did to me personally.

And then talking about the future, like what are you more, most excited and lo- from your perspective more business-oriented, what, what do you see, like exciting patterns or trends in psychedelic industry that you think are gonna be very profound in the future?

Ronan Levy: In the psychedelic space?

From a business perspective I think the recognition that this doesn’t scale, that this is just, peer-to-peer mostly. Not entirely peer-to-peer, but it’s not designed for, it doesn’t support or work within a corporate context of scale, that it’s more community-driven and is the way it’s going to evolve, and I think that’s probably the right way for, for things to happen.

Sam Believ: So psychedelics have successfully resisted being bastardized by corporate, like the negative of the capitalism, like, oh, like profits. So is that what you’re trying to say? I didn’t know it was a conclusion already.

Ronan Levy: I’m betting that’s the way it’s going to end.

I think, yeah, I think psychedelics just don’t get commoditized very well. I think, as people start to explore psychedelics, they realize the context of big scaling corporate conglomeration for it is not the place for it, … as much as people may try. I think that’s where we end.

So- I th- wonder- wonderful that Compass will get approved for psilocybin and other psychedelics get approved, but I think the business maybe those will be successful businesses, but this business will scale regardless of that. It’ll grow. I won’t say scale, but it’ll grow. If you wanna find me my website is ronanlevy.com, R-O-N-A-N-L-E-V-Y.com.

I’m on Instagram at Ronan D, as in David, Levy, ronandlevy. And on LinkedIn and all that kinda stuff. And just in the process of launching a new company called Fun Loving Company where we’ve developed a legal, natural formulation that mimics what we say is like a half dose of MDMA. And soon to be launching that, so if you’re interested in that, follow wearefunloving on Instagram is the place to find that.

Sam Believ: Thank you, Ronan. Thank you for the episode. Guys, you’ve been listening to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, with you, the host, Sam Believe, and I’ll see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you’d like to support us and psychedelic renaissance at large, please follow us and leave us a wherever it is you’re listening.

Share this episode with someone who will benefit from this information. Nothing in this podcast is intended as medical advice, and it is for educational and entertainment purposes only. This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat. At LaWayra, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity.

LaWayra, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you.

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with Daniel McQueen. Daniel is a psychedelic specialist, author, and pioneer who co-founded the Center for Medicinal Mindfulness in Boulder, Colorado. With a master’s in transpersonal counseling psychology, he has spent over a decade at the forefront of the psychedelic renaissance, notably developing cannabis-assisted psychedelic therapy and leading groundbreaking work in the field of extended-state DMT.

We touch upon topics of:

• 03:12 – The transition from Western mysticism to grounded psychotherapeutic practices.
• 05:45 – Balancing indigenous ceremonial traditions with modern clinical settings.
• 09:30 – Defining DMTX: The technology behind “stable state” extended DMT journeys.
• 11:15 – The unique ability to “turn off” or pause a psychedelic experience using infusion pumps.
• 13:50 – Safety, medical alternatives, and the duration of extended-state sessions.
• 16:20 – Encountering entities, spirits, and the “presence” in the DMT realm.
• 20:45 – Facilitating communication and gaining direct access to the creative brain.
• 23:10 – Descriptions of entity forms: From ancestors to geometric and insect-like beings.
• 25:30 – Reaching cosmic-centric states and universal bliss through increased dosage.
• 28:15 – How spirits “taught” the team to refine the DMTX medical protocol.
• 31:40 – Theories on the non-physical, higher-dimensional nature of the DMT reality.
• 35:00 – The potential for mapping the DMT realm and using AI to stabilize brainwave patterns.

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to http://www.lawayra.com

Find more about Daniel McQueen at http://www.medicinalmindfulness.org

Would you like me to generate a catchy title or some promotional social media posts for this episode?

Transcript

Daniel McQueen: DMTx is just a short term for what we call extended state or stable state DMT. They figured out that they could use a medical device called an infusion pump, which basically pushes medicine into the bloodstream at a very s- specific rate. And because of the traits of pure DMT, it’s a very fast-acting and metabolizes quickly, and there’s no tolerance.

This medicine can be put through an infusion pump, and a client or a journeyer can simply stay in the DMT state for as long as they’re called to. With smoking or vaping, you go up, you’re in it for a little bit, and right before you really get your orientation, you start coming out of the experience. It’s really fast.

That’s the biggest complaint of smoking DMT. We’re able to stabilize higher dosing, higher concentrations in the bloodstream. And so some of the things we can do with this technology is we can level people out at different dosing rates, which are subjectively different experiences. We can dial it down if it’s too strong or too fast, and then you can turn it off, which is completely unknown in the world of psychedelics, just be able to turn off the medicine.

And people come down in a matter of a minute or two. You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast.com.

Hi, guys, and welcome to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, with you the host, Sam Beliaf, and today I’m having a conversation with Daniel McQueen. Daniel is a psychedelic specialist, author, and educator who has been at the forefront of the psychedelic renaissance for over a decade. He’s the co-founder and executive director of the Center for Medicinal Mindfulness in Boulder, Colorado, the first legal plant-based psychedelic therapy center in the United States.

With a master’s degree in transpersonal counseling psychology from Naropa University, Daniel has pioneered innovative modalities for healing and self-discovery. He’s most widely known for developing cannabis-assisted psychedelic therapy, a practice that utilizes intentional high-dose cannabis protocols to elicit profound psychedelic states for trauma resolution and personal transformation.

This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat. At LaWayra, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity. LaWayra, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you. Daniel, welcome to the show. Hey, thanks for having me, Sam. I appreciate being here. Let’s start by getting to know you and your story and what brought you to work with psychedelics.

Yeah. That’s the big, that’s the big question. I think like many of us, I had a curiosity of altered states of consciousness. When I was younger, I was interested in mysticism and out-of-body experiences and ESP and and psychedelics emerged out of that space, like this, from this Western mysticism approach.

There seems to be a good overlap there. I really value psychedelics in that way and what they elicit. And then the other side of it is, I think like many of us I came into the profession for healing. I saw real potential for healing. And I had my own healing process to move through as well.

But I’d say fundamentally it was curiosity that brought me into psychedelics. I was always this way. I was always interested in meditation and things like that. So it was just a natural progression for me. I got my master’s in counseling after working in the underground f- psychedelic field for a while and being an apprentice.

And I realized that we needed to balance out the psychedelic spirituality approach with grounded psychotherapeutic practices and education around mental health. And so I feel like I hold that both/and really well in our program. I… And that’s my primary orientation. I identify as a ceremonialist.

I pray with the medicine. And but I also really value the, the therapeutic healing aspects. Sounds like like a good balance. I was curious and since you s- you mentioned s- more ceremonial approach with your DMT work, do you, … do you use any shamanic tools or maybe like smudging the space or is there anyone that kinda acts, does the role of a shaman?

As the, takes the, that role? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. We talk about the extended state DMT, but also regular, working with regular DMT. This is all legal in Colorado now un- in certain containers. So I was, like I said I was trained in the underground, and so there’s definitely an overlap between that and indigenous practices.

But I also have a pretty good rooted relationship with indigenous communities, and I have in my past. So I learned to pray in the Native American church, right? And so even though I don’t, I’m not identified as indigenous at all, there’s a deep respect there and also a desire to honor the mi- the worldview and the mindset without being culturally appropriating.

So we… i, like I said I also come from kind of a Western mysticism and alchemical and Jungian approach, and I think there’s a great amount of overlap there. So we, so what that looks like in our ceremonies and our practices is we honor the cardinal directions and our spirit allies and friends on the other side, but we don’t use indigenous language.

We use… I personally use acknowledging skillsets and capacities and things. We honor the earth and the sky, our ancestors, and then we also have altars and candles and offerings to our ancestors and elders and spirits. And as far as smudging and things go, sometimes there’s sage in these spaces.

It’s, it depends. Like we do have a small community of folks and that include indigenous folks. But we also have, use other incenses as well, from other world traditions. And then energetically, shamanically, I think, that’s a worldview, and I’m not a materialist. I believe in energetic influences.

I believe in the need to create a sense of safety and and out of respect. And so that always is like permeating the space even if we’re not like actively engaging in like explicitly visual shamanic practices. But most… Our team is alway- has always been comprised of e- either indigenous or African practitioners, and so they’re bringing these elements into especially the DMTX work because that’s a, group process.

That takes a group of us. So that’s where I am with the ceremonial aspect is Honor it, acknowledge it, and also be very respectful of the cultural traditions that are associated with them, right? So let’s let’s talk about DMTX. I think it’s it’s very cool. You basically, you created a technology that doses people with DMT so they can have- extended DMT experiences as opposed to vaping. Obviously- … ayahuasca with the m- plant medicines with which I work mostly, it’s also an extended DMT state- Yeah … but it has other mixtures. And so this is pure DMT, and it’s more visual. So talk to us- That’s right. … About this. The- Yeah

the idea and development of it and ’cause I listened to a podcast about this with you on it, but it was like- … a while ago, so I’m sure things have changed. Yeah. We’ve really developed it. It’s pretty amazing. Again we thought we would have to leave the country. We were looking at retreat centers in Costa Rica, Jamaica to host us because D- places where DMT is accessible and allowed.

But then the law changed here in Colorado under the Natural Medicine Health Act, and that legalized naturally extracted DMT, not just ayahuasca, but it actually says DMT in the law. In Colorado, it legalized it for personal and spiritual use, and, that’s related to our church and, these endeavors.

But for those who don’t know yet, I’ll just very briefly describe what it is. DMTX is just a short term for what we call extended state or stable state DMT, and this idea was proposed by this scientist named Andrew Gallimore, who partnered with Rick Strassman, the original researcher for DMT, to get the data.

And they figured out that they could use an inf- a medical device called an infusion pump, which basically pushes a particular medicine into the bloodstream at a very s- specific rate. And because of the traits of pure DMT, it’s very fast-acting and metabolizes quickly, and there’s no tolerance. This medicine can be you- put through an infusion pump and a client or a journeyer can simply stay in the DMT state for as long as they’re called to.

And that’s different from a vaping s- smoking version in that with smoking or vaping, you go up, you’re in it for a little bit, and right before you really get your orientation, you start coming out of the experience. It’s really fast. It’s… And that’s the biggest complaint of smoking DMT. And then with ayahuasca, it’s longer obviously.

But we’re able to stabilize higher dosing, higher concentrations in the bloodstream than ayahuasca. So it’s more like a long DMT trip versus an ayahuasca-like experience. And it’s not going through our liver and stomach and things, so it’s it’s a little more stable. And so- Some of the things we can do with this technology is we can level people out at different dosing rates, which are subjectively different experiences.

We can dial it down if it’s too strong or too fast, and then you can turn it off which is completely unknown in the world of psychedelics. Just be able to turn off the medicine. And people come down in a matter of a minute or two. It’s that fast. And so literally it can be like if there’s a– if they’re having a hard time and they need to take a break, you turn it off, or if they just need to go to the bathroom in the middle of it, we can turn it off, unplug them, and then they come back and plug them back in and turn the machine on and put them right back into the state that they were in.

It’s a different kind of technology. It’s it’s it changes the whole idea of what psychedelics are in a way, right? And so we– Since legalization, I’ve had the opportunity to facilitate 30, around 30 of these, and I’ve also done journeyed two myself. So I can talk about the, the subjective experience, what we’re discovering.

But it’s amazing. It’s great, some of the benefits might be like some people can’t smoke for medical reasons, and some people, can’t take Ayahuasca for medical reasons. And this would be a good alternative, like a, a safe medical alternative for certain folks through using IVs and the infusion pump stuff What’s the longest someone has been on the, the DMT trip using that technology?

Yeah. The, the researchers were doing 30 minutes and an hour. I think they’ve extended theirs for more than that. We’ve done on average in the last cohort of folks, a couple of hours is what we were advertising and supporting. A lot… Some of those folks were doing an hour, but some would’ve du- gone longer.

We had some folks go two and a half hours. Mine was three hours. The, the last one I did was three hours. But it was very different. I wouldn’t say I was in the peak the whole time or anything like that. But technically, theoretically, again, it’s not as clear-cut as you’d think it would be. But you could go ex- you could go much longer than that, be in the full peak experience at a level that’s sustainable.

There’s a level that’s not overwhelming in a negative sense, but it’s ego dissolving, so people don’t generally stay at that level. But you could stay at a really fully peak level DMT experience for hours and indefinitely. With that being said, though, people, it is an energy-intensive journey.

It takes a lot out of you. And sometimes the spirits on the other side say, “Okay, you’re done,” and they turn off the experience before we even turn off the infusion pump. It’s like the people get pulled out of the experience sometimes by their encounters with the sacred or the spiritual. It’s interesting in that way.

So I don’t say we… I don’t think we have, always have full control over what, what’s gonna happen Yeah, I think Terence McKenna, if he would be alive, he’d probably be there right now doing 30 hours- Yeah, I think so too. … 30 hours while taking some LSD and Yeah … it’s s- it sounds like- Theoretically you could go days, you could do lower dose and go days. And you can do, like the equivalent of an Ayahuasca journey and go full six hours, things like that. There, there’s another application that’s for stroke, people who’ve had strokes. So like really low doses but extended periods of eight hours and things.

The, the medical community is really looking into the the health benefits for something like this. It’s, it appears to be like a natural and anti-inflammation medicine too. Really great- So you mentioned spirits or entities or beings on the other side. … Is there always someone or sometimes it’s there are no spirits?

‘Cause how common is it to see- Yeah, not, yeah, I’d say it’s more common than not. Some people don’t. So like there’s a couple of things. Some people will be in a landscape. For instance, one of my journeyers went to a pl- a, a distant planet, and it was… It had a feel of almost like a ancient but desert-like space, and it was the origin of love, the or- where love came from.

And I think there were like probably like pink crystals everywhere too, right? Just to give you an idea of a place type experience. But a lot of people either experience direct contact, visual direct contact and extended communication with an, what we would call an entity or a spirit. And we can talk about the types and stuff.

Wow. Or they feel a presence. It’s just like a knowing or a felt sense of a a deep sacred presence. And and similar to Ayahuasca and DMT, all the re- trip reports of all the different types of entities people see or what our people are experiencing with extended state. It’s just we get to hang out with them longer and get to know ’em and talk to ’em and listen to ’em, without being in some sort of like rush of “Okay this is gonna end in two minutes.”

So imagine being able to cultivate a stable experience with like almost like a relationship with these folks. That’s been really meaningful. That’s, like we treat it as real. Like again I have a s- skeptical part which I appreciate. Keeps me grounded. I love the scientific right mindset too, but we…

I can’t under… I can’t I can’t ignore how real these experiences feel and how beneficial they are in healing. So we treat it as a real phenomenon, and are very respectful with the spirits. And they taught us how to do the DMTX better. That was one of the first things that we learned from the spirits was how to dial in the protocol of the extended state experience to make it better, and that was- Fascinating, right?

I don’t know, like the implications of that feel unusual to me Yeah. So yeah, talk, talk to us about that. What, what kind of spirits did you see? Like, how did they communicate with you? Is it language? Is it images? Yeah, tell us more about this, Like I said, some of it’s a presence or a Gnostic knowing.

You gain access to, I call it almost like gaining access, direct access to that place where creativity comes from, just direct access to our full brain without defenses. And so it’s a really special place to be in. But, so I don’t I can only speak more about DMT than Ayahuasca, right?

So I’m coming from that perspective. There are definitely human-like realms, and the, the first two, the first- or the two journeys I did, some of the first images were hanging, were literally being with the ancestors, and they were indigenous. And I’m in Colorado think mesas and big skies and things like that.

Very indigenous. And I felt like they were directly tapped into even deeper places of the work. And so beyond the imagery of the human, there appears to be, like, there’s animal-like and insect-like but then we step into more of a unfolding hyperbolic geometry, right? And the beings have that, that sort of vibe, like geometric forms.

But, more than like many occasions, we had my friend Sky, hung out with a little a- insect-like creature on her shoulder hanging out and nud- nuzzling with her. That she had that experience. My friend Ron, who’s an indigenous practitioner was deeply connected to the imagery of dragons.

He’d seen them in Ayahuasca ceremonies, and it’s like serpents, really powerful serpents, serpent images. And, and he was, working with the dragons and doing big work that way. S- They were showing their teeth and, being very powerful. Not scary necessarily, but big. I had experiences that feel more like other alien-like forms, amoebas and with arms and things like that, and with certain patterns. And sometimes there’s this feeling of there’s different tribes of entities where they’re all interconnected as one being, but also have an individualistic perspective, too. So it’s like many spirits connected in these tribal patterns.

They had different color patterns or different different shapes to them. So it’s it’s been across the board. And then there will be people w- who have past life memories and visions of other scenes that are human, which might be related to ancestry or ancestors. And then there’s this transcendent space.

A lot of people saw Buddhas, Buddhas and ascended masters who were there to catch us and then send us deeper into the work, right? So it’s very multicultural in that way. But I would say it’s almost not even Earth-centric. It’s almost feels like a, a cosmos-centric experience, right? So it’s like you, you meet beings and s- presence and spirits that might not even be from this realm of existence or something.

And then there’s a space beyond that, right? If you increase the dose, the spirits go away. The forms and people, beings go away, and then you’re just in states of being, right? And that b- could be, like, oneness with all of the universe, really transcendent states. Being in other, surrounded by the light of universal bliss, it really gets to be more cosmic and f- cosmic forces oriented than individualistic. Really interesting space. And the thing is about DMTX, I’ll just end with this, Sam, is that you can pau- you can stabilize it at any of these levels of any type of experience. Or you wanna hang out with the ancestors, stabilize it there, and then you just stay right there with whatever you’re wanting to work with.

And then you … when you’re ready to move forward or go deeper, you re-increase the dose, and you can stabilize it and have extended experiences and relationships with these presences. It’s not fleeting like it is with, smoking DMT and it’s just there and back again, that’s- Yeah

that’s a game changer. It’s fascinating. Today, is that a technology they used in the Imperial College London for the- … for mapping the DMT realm ex- experiment? Yeah. That’s, that was the first funded study was Imperial College. Zimmermann and those guys. Yeah they started with 30-minute sessions, and I think they did another series with an hour session.

And I think it’s ongoing. I don’t know where they’re at anymore. They’re connected with a retreat center now too in The Bahamas. And so they’re, those guys are working on this. I think they were do- they, so we, they were more of a re- a research model. So they had to do certain things like ask a rating scale every minute or, and then do blood pressure every five minutes and all, get all this data.

And w- we did that for a little bit, but we found it more interfered with the subjective experience, so we g- we let some of the scientific inquiry go. I think they were gonna do MRIs or something like that. I don’t know where they are with that. But that’s the idea is you can stay in that state, do an MRI, get the brain data, bring them out when you’re ready, not, not just get a glimpse of it.

And what kind of information do you get from the entities? Have, has, ha- has anyone ever tried to ask them about mathematical problems or anything- No … like specific? Not yet. I know that’s a proposal to ask the entities. Andrew talks about this. Ask the entities a math question that like I couldn’t know the answer to, and try to prove the objective reality of it, right?

I think that’s I think he’s onto something in that what we’ve done is we work with the intentions of our clients, and this is myself included, right? What is your intention? What is the question that you have? And then we bring you into the experience. And at some point, as a guide, I might even check in with your intuition, but most of the time it shows up spontaneously the intention the question.

And one example one of our journeyers had a list of seven questions and I, reviewed it with him. We talked it about it, and at some point I brought in maybe a few pieces of it. But later he got his list back and realized that he had every single question answered on his list, and these were big life questions that were relevant to him.

And then I’ve also had this experience where it’s like I said, you had… if you had full access to your brain with no defenses, then you really can look at something and explore the question of it in a way that you wouldn’t be able to on, in a normal state. And so I learned, what they taught me was, like my question was how do I cultivate and build this program, DMTX program?

How can I support it? And I got really clear, useful, grounded advice on how to do it and how to do next steps, right? We also, in the very first retreat we did with the NTX, we also connected with the entities, and they showed us how to dial in the entry of the experience so that it would be more beneficial.

And so they literally told us… it’s almost like “Interstellar” where they, Or “Contact,” the Jodie Foster movie, the, the movie, a really great book, where they, they give us the blueprints of something that then we could communicate better with them. And that happened. We they taught us how to dial it in and how to step into it in a way that felt less intrusive to the spirits.

This was their language, right? And more congruent with the needs of the psychonaut. And so we learned to dial it in and kind of reach, meet, like this idea of meeting the spirits in a halfway point. And then what they did is we would meet them into this halfway point. Spirit would meet us the entity or being, and then we would ask permission to go deeper.

And the spirit would be, “Yes, g- let’s come.” And they would literally be beckoning them through portals and doorways and things like that. But if we didn’t increase the dose, the cl- the guide, the journeyer couldn’t go with them. And so when we got that yes and that confirmation that it was okay, permission, it’s a consent-based model Then we would increase the dose of the infusion, and that would give them a boost to travel deeper into the experience with them.

And, that’s just a really special experience for people to have that really lucid visual contact like that. And then to be invited in deeper into their, whatever that world is. It’s fascinating. And what do you think is it? Is it are they also in a physical reality and we…

And you just appear as a ghost or like- … where are they and why are they expecting you? Why are they happy to see us? … Any theories so far? Yeah. That’s a good question. They’re happy to s- Like, that’s like a DMT thing, right? Often people name that. It’s like the mischievous elf, the self-transforming elves of Terence McKenna, right?

They’re excited to see us. They’re playful. They wanna show us around. What is that place? One idea I had in my last journey was it almost felt like an interface. The entity I was meeting also is in a physical body somewhere, and they use some sort of DMT technology to meet me in the interface between the two worlds.

That’s one idea that I thought was interesting. I have no, evidence for that or anything. My, my general s- cons- feeling is that it’s a nonphysical realm, and it’s related to a higher dimensional reality. More than four. We’re embedded in this larger, higher dimensional reality, and the words we use for things like that are the spirit world higher dimensions, ascended realms.

What are other things? Qua-, like it, it can be related to quantum mechanics, you know, and the multiplicity of the universe, right? The multiverse. It… I’ve seen so many different things, I don’t actually know the answer to it. But I think it might be non-physical, right? Meaning like they can bend in ways that a physical body couldn’t, right?

I have joints and elbows. These entities seem to be able to morph into things and change their shape, and I think it’s because they’re naturally… They don’t have a s- body like we do. And again, if this is all true, but but that’s the subjective experience, right? People really feel like it’s a…

It’s both a futuristic technological reality, but it’s combined directly with a advanced but ancient spirituality. Where, there’s a, a bringing together of the future and the ancient past, and it’s more cosmic than local. And it’s just very meaningful, right? It feels both sacred and hyper advanced, if that make- Ancient, advanced, sacred.

And I love that. It’s very intriguing. It’s very intriguing This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat. Most of LaWayra if you’ve been listening to this podcast for a while. Some of you might have already been to LaWayra before. For those who don’t know us yet, we started LaWayra four years ago.

At LaWayra, we combine authenticity, accessibility, and affordability. LaWayra is currently highest-rated Ayahuasca retreat in South America with more than 700 five-star reviews and an average rating of five stars. If you come to LaWayra, you’ll experience powerful, authentic ceremonies led by our indigenous shaman, Fernando, in a very beautiful venue just one hour south of Medellín, Colombia.

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L-A-W-A-Y-R-A.com. Yeah, time is not linear in that space. But I’m just wondering if you can also- … map it eventually where, let’s say, instead of 30, a couple thousand people, and know exactly at which dose they get to exactly which realm and meet exactly which entity. Do you reckon it’s possible- Yep

to eventually know exactly- Yep … with precision? Yeah. So everybody, this is- And have you ever had people that repeat the same experience- Yeah … twice with the same dose? Again, this is so preliminary, right? I’m one of the few people who’ve done it more than once in my community.

Few of us have now. And we’re about to start another round of these things. So the answer is yes. It’s re- you can replicate it. And that… And unlike Ayahuasca just to give you an example. It’s not, this isn’t a better than or di- it’s just a different thing. Ayahuasca, each brew has a di- slightly different dosing, right, potency, and there’s all…

so you gotta learn your brew. You gotta learn your medicine, right? With this, once we… the dosing is dialed in down to the milligram per minute, right? It’s really dialed in. And everybody’s subjective experience and tolerance and relationship to psychedelics with their body because of genetics, everybody’s different.

But what we can do is get the baseline in the first journey, get an idea of where they go, at what doses, and what they encounter. And then on the second journey, and we did this. We designed the dosing based on the first journey, and I did re-experience many of the same kind of themes and places. Like I said, it started out very indigenous with ancestors, right?

That showed up in both journeys at the same dosing level. And so if I wanted to, and I really loved that space. It was really special and meaningful to me. And so if I wanted to, I could di- I could design a protocol and just go there, right? Yes. And so th- yes, theoretically, once a person knows their dosage, you can start tailoring it to the journey or…

And then eventually that might be an AI tool, right? Dr. Gallimore talks about kind of the sci-fi side of this. But it could be an AI tool where you put up some electrodes, to measure what’s going on in the brain. Measuring the default mode network or whatever it is they decide to do, and then the medicine just st- keeps you at the level that’s equal to a particular brainwave pattern.

Yeah. All of this is doable. You’re giving me lots of ideas to ask Andrew, because I’m interviewing him in February, yeah, there you go. Yeah. He’s the guy that came up with this. I was just super inspired by it. Yeah really inspiring experience. Yeah. Yeah, talk to him all about it.

We need to get him… He needs to experience it. Okay. I don’t know if he has yet, i’ll try and remember and mention it to him. Yeah. So yeah, that, that is very interesting because, I’ve drank ayahuasca more than 100 times, and I’ve been- I’ve been through all kinds of experiences you describe and many more.

Sure. But it is the part that, we say Ayahuasca gives you what you need, not what you want. Yeah. So it kinda somehow decides, okay, this time you need this kind of experience, and you just go with it. But to be able to predict it and specifically know which… where you’re going or, like…

it’s kinda good but kinda bad as well- Yeah … because then you don’t know. If you consistently know it’s always gonna be a great experience then there’s- … I would be worried about will it make you addicted? Because with Ayahuasca- Spiritual bypassing, yeah … you never know. It’s like am I gonna be a lovely experience or is it gonna kick my ass?

Yeah. Fair enough. It kinda keeps you at bay. Fair enough. You gotta remember also a lot of these folks are already seasoned psychonauts and things, and have been through those big experiences. This isn’t the… We worked with a few people who hadn’t done much work, but they had big experiences, don’t get me wrong.

It shows you where you’re out of alignment just as Ayahuasca does, and then we also see big world, big life transformation outside of the journey experiences. So it rocks people in a… just like any other psychedelic experience would. And, but you’re right. We don’t wanna spiritually bypass or always control it, right?

There’s no control here. What I tell people is “I can’t guarantee the type of experience you’re gonna have but I can set up the preconditions for you to have an ex- experience.” And then, like I said, sometimes like somebody was planning on going two hours, and at an hour the spirits are like, “Okay, you’re done.

You’re going back now.” And, we pause and slow it down to make sure that’s what they wanna do, and they’re often like, “No, spirits are telling me I’m done. I… it’s ti- I’m complete.” So it’s more of a partnership. Do the spirits have preferences? And they’re like, “Yeah you’re kinda boring.

Go away.” Do they have preferences? No. I wonder what do they think of me, putting all this, put all this together. They match what a person needs to go through, for sure. Hey, buddy. We have a visitor. Yeah, another visitor … I don’t know how they escape, but this is this is my oldest son.

Hey. All three of them are here. They’re- I have two girls. Yep. Here you go. Damien, show yourself. Oh. How’s it going? You’re star on a podcast. It’s great. Hey, buddy. You might as well see all of my kids. But it’s the first time they ever- My girls are in school right now. Yeah … they ever escaped. Papa, can I be a bit more here?

No, baby, I’m doing a podcast. Don’t you see I’m interviewing this guy? I want to be a bit more outside. I’ll see you right afterwards, okay? Can I be a bit more outside? Up here, outside. Okay. Be out- be outside, of course. Ciao, Nina. Yeah. Say hello, Porche. Ciao, Nina. That’s great. Yeah. That’s a whole other topic being, Yes.

Normally I’m much better protected, but they- Yeah … slipped through the cracks today. Yeah. The babies, but- Yeah. Fair enough, man. But anyways- that’s a whole other topic, is being… I have a 12 and nine-year-old, so I’m a little- they’re a little older than yours. Being a parent doing this work is a whole other thing, a whole other conversation.

Yeah. It’s, I’ve had a few conversations like this, specifically about women, postpartum depression, like all the issues. And it’s I guess people look down on you working with psychedelics when you’re a parent. Yeah. It’s like some people judge you. But it’s like, that’s kinda where…

it’s a, it’s an interesting topic because policemen, first responders, they’re the ones who, who need psychedelics the most to, like- … recover. But then it’s if they do it or if they even admit that they have a mental health issue they frown upon. They can even lose their job.

Yeah. We had surgeons come here, and they’re like, “Yeah, nobody… I can’t. Please don’t take photos- … of me. Nobody can know because I might lose my job.” I don’t know. We have the same- It seems unfair … things. It’s interesting. I hear that. It is, and I agree with you that the people who need it the most are sometimes prohibited by the law or their profession.

They have major problems because it can be helpful. It’s interesting. Being in Colorado and being in Boulder, it… we’re still coming to terms that mushrooms and DMT, ayahuasca are all legal here now. And and it’s taken years to just kinda reorient to it. We’re very fortunate that we don’t get a lot of cultural pushback here.

But I- Yeah … but we’ve seen it. Discrimination is very real. Yeah, it is unfortunate. I think as time goes, the culture will change. People will see it more as a medicine- … and less as as a drug. But, Yeah … speaking of drugs and legalization, I think before your DMTx project, you were very interested in cannabis, right?

Yeah. And probably still are. Like, … s- seeing cannabis not as a recreational thing or not as something you just do, but more as a- … sacrament to, to induce sort of mystical experience. Let’s talk about that a little bit. Yeah, I’d love to. Yeah. Yeah it’s 2013 in Colorado, and cannabis just became legalized.

It’s… And it was gonna be legal for adult use at the beginning of 2014. A friend of mine said, “Hey, have you ever considered working with cannabis as a psychedelic?” And I said, “I, I’ve always used it, appreciate it, but I never really thought of it that way.” And so we started to experiment with it, and I was naturally drawn to making blends, and that’s the key to making something psychedelic with cannabis.

We made blends with… and s- and smoked it. Like v- vaped or smoked it. And so a l- a lot of people have had psychedelic experiences with edibles, right? They’ll have big visions, they’ll go deep in processes, but they’ll also get sick at high-dose edibles, and they get r- anxious or paranoid or panicky.

What we figured out how to do is get to those psychedelic states with cannabis without those extreme negative side effects. And it’s just a lot of people describe it as like similar to Ayahuasca. It can be that visual. I like to describe it as similar to a MDMA/mushroom protocol.

It provides a lot of emotional support, but you still have those inner visuals like d- like mushrooms do. And so I wrote a book on, on this and to teach people how to use cannabis in this way. Similar to Terence McKenna and Dennis McKenna’s How to Grow Mushrooms in Your Basement book in the ’80s.

I really wanted to get the idea out there that we could do this work legally. And through that whole process, we learned that we could work with trauma resolution with cannabis. It’s a- it’s… I would call it up there with MDMA as a trauma resolution tool. And so we have a clinic here in Boulder, and we offer cannabis sessions.

We’ve been doing that for gosh, since 2014. And we work with ketamine, mushrooms, and DMT. But cannabis is a, really special… has a really special place in my heart. I- if I were to admit if I identify as a medicine practitioner, and I had my medicine, cannabis would be my primary medicine.

It’s my friend and ally, for sure. Yeah, I think everyone has their favorite medicine because- … in my opinion, it’s like each of those plants or medicines they’re so complex that you can spend entire lifetime with them just trying to understand one of them. So it’s, Yeah

It’s good to have options though. It’s really special. Yeah, cannabis is special. It doesn’t blow you out of the water like big m- big journey can do. So people can get a lot of real healing and have profound experiences without that strong ego dissolution. And and I found it’s just a good ally.

You can take it more frequently like as a journey tool than you can some of the other medicines. And we just… it’s just a wonderful ally, and it’s ancient, right? It’s as ancient as the other medicines, just in a different way. It c- came from through… It came from China and went through India like six, seven, 8,000 years ago, and so it’s really interconnected with, ancestral and ancient practices.

We just forgot how to use them because of the prohibition of cannabis. So I’ve really valued bringing it back into the psychedelic community, be an advocate and speak for the trees, be an advocate for the medicine. It’s a flower. It’s a beautiful flower, and it has a place in the pantheon of the work we use and of the medicines we work with.

Here in Colombia, it’s legal to grow up to 20 plants- Yeah … of cannabis, and I’m not really much of a cannabis guy or weed or whatever- That’s good … but I… Somebody gave us the the seeds, and we planted. We had two, two cannabis plants, really big and pretty ones, right next to- … the ceremony space.

And, That’s great … in a mushroom ceremony once, I looked at the cannabis plant, and it’s just it looks extra pretty when you’re on mushrooms. And you feel like there is some kind of presence. Yeah I really like the plant. I like how it looks. I like how it smells.

I- … I definitely tried smoking it a couple times, and it’s nice. But I am concerned- … because everyone I know that is into it, they smoke it every day, and they say, “No, I’m not addicted,” but they are, yeah. Sure. I don’t know if there’s if there’s any advice you have for people that- Or they-

how to change their relationship with cannabis to a more conscious one. Yeah. Yeah, I do. I have a lot of good ideas there. The one is yes, there… like any medicine, there is an abuse potential, right? We acknowledge that. As far as most medicines go that are used in that way grace- gratefully, cannabis generally doesn’t kill people like cigarettes and tobacco and alcohol do, right?

So I really… I appreciate that. And then acknowledging also that there are like… there are certain medications we take every day for physical health symptoms, you know human bodies just sometimes aren’t always working right. And so there… and then there are mental health conditions.

People take SSRIs every day. There are ways to use cannabis skillfully on a daily basis. Lower the dose. Use edibles, so you can, not overuse. But more than anything, I would say is bring intentionality into it. And so say a prayer before you smoke, right? Turn towards it, not just do it sub- unconsciously.

And so that’s what we do. We, we honor it through prayer. And then what we found in our clinic, so we work with trauma resolution a lot, and cannabis is used as a symptom management of trauma. That’s why a lot of people are regular users. Whether or not it’s big trauma, big T or little T trauma- What we do is we teach them how to use it in the way we work with it as a psychedelic, and n- they naturally start using less Because the way we work with it addresses underlying causes, root causes.

And so they just don’t need it as much for symptom management. And the– we’ve heard this over and over again. And so I’ve come from a harm reduction approach. I meet people where they are, I educate them on how to use safer and more, with more intention, and then I teach them how to address underlying struggles.

And then they naturally start to say things like, “Yeah, I’ve noticed I use less. I don’t smoke it every day anymore,” things like that. And with that being said, some people have real addictive traits, and we keep an eye on that and make sure people stay safe and are using it in with some accountability, right?

So it’s complicated, right? It’s not like a black and white, or from my perspective, do or don’t, or abstinence only, or once a week, and that’s, I think it’s very subjective. And some people need the daily support, right? Some people have real physical injuries and are using it for pain management.

So I allow. I respect that. I support people, so you have a clinic, but you also work with the church. T- can you tell us something about it? Yeah. Yeah. So we have a center here. We have a, a nice group space and four therapeutic rooms. And we have a, great community and team here.

And so half of our work is therapeutic, clinical, and other licensed natural medicine, mushroom side of things, right? So very clinical. And then the other side, like I said, I identify more as a ceremonialist. And I wanted to bring in a, a container that was more community-oriented, let go of the financial cost and, the paid by the hour thing like clinic- clinicians are.

And I really miss the community piece of it. And so our nonprofit, we did some rearranging in the legal language of our nonprofit and turned it into a psychedelic church. And that also provides the foundation for certain legal protections. Again, in Colorado, it’s still legal under state law, but we wanted to add additional legal protections.

And eventually, we wanna be able to do our work outside of the state, right? Like work with graduate chaplains, psychedelic chaplains, and they can work outside of the state with these medicines. And we’re not the only ones doing this. It’s nice. I would say psychedelic churches, the right ones, the good ones really are the forefront of the legalization movement, legalization through religious practice.

And I think it’s a very valid pathway to legalization. So even though I feel very sincere in my own personal religious beliefs and identify as a, somebody who has a spiritual practice and connected with something greater than me, right? Like- that’s all authentic and real. It– we’re not just doing it for the legal protections, but legal protections are really nice, right?

We wanna make sure we’re as safe as possible doing this work. And it’s a nice exploration, right? So we, we work with… We’re gonna be working with six medicines plus breathwork in the through the church. The ones we work with, but eventually when the r- timing is right and when I have the right intentional practitioner, we would love to bring in San Pedro.

And then also another big medicine that’s incredibly healing and I have a deep respect for is 5-MeO-DMT. And so just having extra legal protections and a system of service, right? To be of service I think is really important. And that’s what we do under our church. DMTX is under the church as well, so that’s like a spiritual initiation, right?

I love that language of it too. Yeah, better be safe than sorry. And so- … you, we you use the medicine for healing obviously. You can use it for growth. But I like that, you describe, you take DMT and you go to another planet. Same thing happens with Ayahuasca, but like using those medicines is more for exploration.

… Kind of understanding the universe. I don’t know if you wanna talk- … about that a little bit. Sure, yeah. That’s the big question, right? Is what is the nature of reality in the universe? I love the idea that we can access other planes of existence and consciousness, and I am absolutely profoundly inspired by the exploration of it.

I think healing is great, don’t get me wrong. I think that’s a necessary part of it. But what happened in America is it became the sole reason to use psychedelics, right? The legit w- reason to use psychedelics, to heal trauma or depression. And that takes away this whole growth edge and it’s, and spirit of exploration, spirit of curiosity that I think is essential to the human spirit.

And and I… So that’s… I really live in that space. I love that space. I don’t know what you wanna talk about or what your thoughts are on this. Or what’s your- So- … teachings teach you about it. I think you had a similar story, but when I was growing up, I was really into adventure, exploration.

I read old books about- … exploration. Then when I realized that the, the world has been explored and there’s nothing, no islands or- Yeah … no continents left to discover, I was a little upset and I thought that the outer space is the only realm. And after finding psychedelics I understand that there is there is another option, which might be- Yeah

much more complex. So- Given the technology you describe, I think it’s- Same … it could be very good for that. 100%. That’s the, that’s my that’s my primary orientation, is to be an explorer, right? We use metaphor of the ships. There were, gosh, the age of exploration is really cool, and then there’s also let’s see if we can cross the Antarctica, right?

There’s just these endurance things people were really wanting to try. So it’s like that. We do it because it’s there. We climb the mountain because it’s there. We wanna see what’s on the other side of it. And I, when I was a kid, I grew up in the generation where NASA and space travel and the shuttle, all of that was a really big thing.

This was post lunar landing, right? And when psy- it’s just the name. Psychedelics in the s- in ’70, ’71 with Nixon. Psychedelics and the space program were both shut down by Nixon in the same year. I find that fascinating that that, energetically something happened where they shut down exploration and inspiration.

And so I’m all about bringing that back, and I think personally what is it? Blue Origin and Jeff Bezos is doing those seven-minute jaunts into low orbit, and they’re, you’re floating around for a few minutes and you come back down. I think this is way more interesting than space travel even, right?

And DMTX, again, it allows you to orient. Instead of getting a glimpse or you’re on the track and you can’t get off of it, it lets you stay in a particular location in that other world, that realm or whatever it is, and you can look around. You can orient and see, okay, study it. And that has been really beneficial.

I like that about DMTX. I don’t like… Personally, I prefer not to smoke DMT anymore after experiencing DMTX because of what you’re describing Yeah. And did you notice, from the work with these spaces and accessing those states, did you notice how it affects your day-to-day life, both from benefits and also from maybe synchronicities?

Do those spirits- Yeah … manifest and help you achieve things faster or something like that? Yeah. Yeah. When we were putting together the first expedition, it was almost like we were being buoyed supported into it. And the synchronicities and, like, how everything came together, it’s like all I had to do was just, “Okay, what’s the next thing I have to get?

What’s the next thing I need to do?” And it would just work out, and it was like this being buoyed and, nudged into the experience. And that was… I could almost… if I turned my right angle, I feel like I would’ve been able to see the wave that was ushering us into it, and that was really special.

Another thing where when… And, we’re calling in the medicine again. We’re working with the community to provide the medicine, the sacrament for us, and it looks like there’s a synchronicity every time the medicine comes around. Aurora borealis are a big thing in the sky, and that’s happening for the second time.

So again, just something we’ve noticed as a special coincidence. What I found… So when we take the DMT, and especially with DMTX, is it gives us a push in the right direction. It gives us what we call potential energy. You probably notice this too. You just feel lighter and you’re able to accomplish more after the journey experience, and I’ve noticed that.

And then it synchronistically opens doors. Here here’s an opportunity for you. You should take this. And then it also helps us feel better physically, psychologically. F- just feel better so that we can do the work that is required, like Spirit’s inviting us to do. I really appreciate it. Something similar happened to me as well, where I never really planned to start a retreat. It just started itself, and I just needed to do the- Yeah … the work. Yeah, what is that? Is that like I think there’s a real calling to it, right? Like a, a spiritual calling.

And it doesn’t mean, it doesn’t guarantee success, right? These are really hard jobs that we’re holding. But what is that, right? And sometimes we’re… Like, I would say I was that way too. I was called to the work versus choosing to do it, right? Yeah. I think that’s very real and very meaningful, right?

I think something bigger than us has recruited us to do something bigger than us as well to result- … in some changes in the world, something like that. That’s what I would like to believe. I think so too. I- that’s my intention, is to do this work in a way that- … makes the world better, and people, help people heal and feel better.

And then if we can come up with some sort of solut- solutions to the big questions- … I would love to be a part of that movement as well, right? And I think psychedelics in general, and these plant medicines in particular, have that real potential, and, … and I’ve ongoingly been inspired by that.

On, on that positive note, let’s start wrapping up. Our time is running out, so let’s let the audience know where they can find more about you and your work. Yeah. Thanks, Sam, for having me. I really appreciate it, and many blessings to you and your work too. Here in, we’re in Boulder, Colorado, and people visit us all the time.

Medicinalmindfulness.org is our s- is our clinic. And then we have one called dmtx.org, for those who are specifically interested in the DMTX program. And then we have a kind of umbrella website that we put everything on, connections to all of our events, all of our programs, and that’s psychedelicshine.com.

So just psychedelicshine.com will get you to the DMTX program, the church, the clinic, the training program. And like I said, we work with four medicines and breathwork, and got a great community of people here, do a lot of trauma work. It’s one of our specialties. And works really well. We really advocate for the Ayahuasca circles, and the communities do.

So if anybody’s interested in connecting with us, there’s ways to, contact pages and things on the websites. W- and we’re recruiting now for 2026 DMTX season. And we got a line already. We’re gonna start turning towards that this, this next month. Thank you, Daniel. Thank you for the exciting interview. And guys, you’ve been listening to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, we are the host, Sam Believe, and I’ll see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you’d like to support us and psychedelic renaissance at large, please follow us and leave us a wherever it is you’re listening.

Share this episode with someone who will benefit from this information. Nothing in this podcast is intended as medical advice, and it is for educational and entertainment purposes only. This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat. At LaWayra, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity.

LaWayra, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with Dr. Richard Soutar. Dr. Soutar is a neuroscience pioneer and the Chief Scientist at New Mind Technologies. With over 30 years of experience, he is a world-renowned expert in QEEG brain mapping and neurofeedback, dedicated to bridging the gap between modern technology and ancient spiritual practices. He has mentored groundbreaking research into the neurological effects of Ayahuasca and Wachuma, helping practitioners use neurofeedback to integrate and sustain profound shamanic shifts.

We touch upon topics of:

• 03:45 – Dr. Soutar’s early spiritual awakening and experiments with altered states in high school.
• 07:20 – The realization that psychedelic experiences mirror high-level meditation with added “sensory noise.”
• 10:15 – Discovering neurofeedback as “electronic yoga” for inducing deep meditative states.
• 14:30 – How neurofeedback serves as a “crash course in reality” following psychedelic breakthroughs.
• 17:10 – The role of the default mode network as a portal between dimensions.
• 21:05 – Defining neurofeedback: Selective feedback loops and operant conditioning for brain exercise.
• 24:50 – Using topographic QEEG brain maps to identify areas of low or high electrical activity.
• 27:30 – Scientific findings: How Ayahuasca pushes the brain toward optimal statistical norms.
• 30:15 – The “drift” factor: Why psychedelic improvements often dissipate after three months without integration.
• 33:40 – The paradox of Ayahuasca: Upregulating or downregulating the same brain areas based on individual needs.
• 37:20 – Accessing “liminal states” between waking and sleep for trauma resolution.
• 41:10 – How psychedelics and meditation can alter DNA and RNA to heal transgenerational trauma.
• 45:00 – Shaking up the system: Using neurofeedback to sustain the neuroplasticity triggered by medicine.

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to http://www.lawayra.com

Find more about Dr. Richard Soutar at http://www.newmindtechnologies.com

Transcript

Dr. Richard Soutar: I adopted approach that psychedelics were a wonderful crash course in reality, a way of breaking through, a way of directly experience the limitations of everyday reality and how it could blind you towards what the fundamental reality of the universe. Psychedelics shake the system up. They… It generates neuroplasticity.

You are rigid when you come into the psychedelic experience, and then it shakes you up. Psychedelics are great up to a point. Once they open you up, you have to go on the journey in your everyday consciousness, in your everyday experience, and find the path forward in everyday life. Old age is a forced march into non-attachment, which describes old age really well, being a senior.

All those things that you didn’t wanna let go, you’re being forced to. But if you don’t have that golden thread of spirit, spiritual practice to latch onto you go into a tailspin.

Sam Believ: You’re listening to AyahuascaPodcast.com.

Hi guys, and welcome to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, we’re your host, Sam Belyav, and today I’m having a conversation with Dr. Richard Suiter. I highly recommend you listen to this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast where I had a conversation with Richard Suiter. He is a pioneer in neurofeedback, and together with his mentee, Luke Jensen, we are doing some science here at LaWayra where we do qEEG brain maps on people before and after their ayahuasca experiences so we can see the results, and we talk about that.

We talk about what is brain mapping, what is neurofeedback. We try to bridge science and spirituality. We talk about the paradox in which in some people, a certain area of the brain is down-regulated and ayahuasca upregulates it, and in a different person, the same area can be upregulated and ayahuasca downregulates it, which kind of scientifically explains the concept that we constantly mention, that ayahuasca gives you what you need.

We talk about neurofeedback as a tool for integration, the transcendent brain states, how you have been meditating wrong your entire life, and how to check if you’re meditating correctly, and many more. It’s a fascinating episode, and I highly recommend you check it out. And don’t forget to leave us a five-star review on Spotify.

Thank you. Dr. Richard is a neuroscience pioneer and sh- chief scientist at NuMind Technologies. Dr. Richard is a world-renowned expert in qEEG brain mapping and neurofeedback with over 30 years of experience, bridging the gap between modern technology and ancient spiritual practices. As the founder of NuMind Technologies, he has developed the sophisticated databases used by clinicians globally to analyze brain health and performance.

Beyond his clinical work, Dr. Suiter is a leading voice in spiritual neuroscience. He has mentored groundbreaking research into neurological effects of ayahuasca and wachuma, providing a scientific lens into the shamanic state and helping practitioners use neurofeedback to integrate and sustain the profound shifts experienced during the plant medicine ceremony.

This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat. At LaWayra, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity. LaWayra, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you. Dr. Suiter, welcome to the show.

Dr. Richard Soutar: Thank you very much

Sam Believ: Let’s start by getting to know you. Tell us your story and what in your life gave you the curiosity to study the brain and and what you’re doing now?

Dr. Richard Soutar: At in my 70s, my story is quite long, but I’ll try to truncate it because it’s mostly a spiritual journey, and that’s how I’ve always looked at it from when I was very young. So in junior high school I woke up one day, I had an experience and was very interested in metaphysics and very interested in hypnosis.

And I started experimenting with different devices to try to change my brain and what I experienced. I have no idea why. Those were just things I was doing. I did experiments with ESP with my friends. I hypnotized them. I developed a photic machine to to change those states of consciousness, and I also used transcranial magnetic stimulation.

And I was experimenting with all these things in high school and altered states because I wanted to try to see around the curtain of reality. I think by the time I was… got to high school, I was interested in yoga. I was practicing yoga a little bit on the side and continued investigating Eastern religion.

When I got to college, I was by that time I was into psychedelics And I had been meditating quite a bit, and I had some intense experiences in meditation which altered my view of reality. And when I did the psychedelics, I had experiences similar to ones I had in meditation, only there was a lot more turbulence at the sensory level.

And it really dawned on me that the psychedelic experience was essentially the same as high levels of meditation experience, except there was a lot of noise, a lot of sensory noise, which a lot of people couldn’t s- couldn’t see through. They were distracted by it, and they liked… they thought it was fun to play with the sensory experiences and weird states that they encountered.

And but some of them had profound spiritual experiences, a lot of them. And often I was the only one around to relate to on that level during those experiences. And I got very popular with my friends for being present during those experiences when they were back in those days we called it tripping but I was also really interested in the mechanics of it.

I was a psychology major and was really interested in what was going on in the brain and how to create a roadmap to get to the experiences I was having, and to take the experience even further. The point being, I was in- really interested in understanding what Satori is or Nirvana, things like that.

I knew that extrasensory perception and things like that was not my goal because I had been reading Christopher Isherwood’s book on yoga and yoga philosophy the aphorism of Patanjali. And it was clear that all of these fantastic experiences and powers that people briefly experience were just another distraction like the sensory ones.

And I began to realize that underneath all these experiences was a substrate that really made the experience wonderful ultimately, and was the ground of what they were all chasing. You go into these psychedelic experiences and say “Oh, we would all say, “Oh we’ve got the answer.”

And then when we came off the experiential… off the psychedelics, we’d go like what a weird answer. Why did we think that was the answer?” Like you would say, “Oh nothing is everything, and everything is nothing. That’s all quite clear.” And you would return to your everyday experience and go, “That doesn’t make any sense.

What w- about that was quite clear?” So I really worked at studying that s- those states and reading more books on the topic. One in particular I read was The Psychology of Meditation which is way out of print, but talked about the EEG and meditation, and that there was a certain EEG signature to meditation.

And I was interested in using EEG as a way to get to those different states and different experiences. So when I went… I briefly took a detour in playing in bands and rock and roll but then I got out of that and I went down, To Arkansas and built a house in the woods.

And down there we met a shaman and his wife, who was a PhD in psychology, and she turned us on to shamanistic techniques for getting into those states. And my wife took up shamanism at that point and studied that with Lynn Andrews So we were constantly in pursuit of these experiences and methods for inducing them and understanding them.

And I was studying it also in school, in graduate school. And that’s where I met my advisor who was also doing EEG work that had just started surfacing called neurofeedback. And he… I went to his clinic, and he did a lot of neurofeedback. He was very advanced technique that he was probably 20 years ahead of the people at, of his time.

And those techniques resulted in very high levels of meditative-like experiences really high levels. I had profound experiences doing alpha-theta training there, and so did my wife. And they duplicated the ex- They were the same experiences that were described by all the main people promoting meditation.

And they were consistent with the Upanishads and other philosophies. And we said, “This really is a technology that can take you there.” So from that point on, I adopted approach that psychedelics were a wonderful crash course in reality, a way of breaking through, a way of directly experience the limitations of everyday reality and how it could blind you towards what the fundamental reality of the universe and, but it was a wonderful introduction, and the neurofeedback we were doing, the alpha-theta, was a wonderful follow-up. We really focused on alpha-theta because it was pretty easy to get psychedelics, but it was almost impossible to find somebody who had a really deep understanding of spiritual traditions Eastern philosophy and brainwave technology.

So we spent all the years since then perfecting that technique on the side. My main everyday life was training people with mental disorders or who wanted peak experiences or who wanted to do peak performance. And so for the last 25 years, I’ve been training everything from people who were lock-ins and couldn’t do anything with their body other than hear and see, all the way from athletes professional athletes who wanted to be peak performers And I worked with, people who had schizophrenic, severe depression, bipolar disorder, and they all had different experiences of reality.

I found that my background really helped me understand their experiences of reality, and I could talk to them in a language in a vernacular which was very familiar to them. Since I could describe their experiences to them, they thought I had a similar experience, and I explained to them that was my background, but I know what the human brain can do and what kind of experiences it’s capable of.

So from that w- perspective, I was really able to build trust with them and help them with neurofeedback, regulate their brains, and diminish a lot of their symptoms of mental disorder or head trauma or other things. Athletes would come to me and with head trauma, and they needed remediation.

And I did that, and did it successfully. People with stroke came to me also, and I helped reduce their symptoms sometimes almost to miraculous levels, which was always astounding to me. But brainwave training was a powerful tool both for healing and for for healing and for pursuit of optimal experiences and optimal performance.

You could tune up the brain and, But it all this really made me realize that the ultimate power of it, like Patanjali says, was to connect you with the fundamental experience of reality, which is the substrate of our everyday experience. There’s a reason we have a default mode experience, because everyday experience is the portal between all these dimensions.

You can go all these different places, but you always come back here. And there’s a reason for it being the default mode, because you can’t maintain your existence in this dimension if you can’t navigate it and take care of yourself and heal get the right sleep get the right exercise get the right food.

You can’t optimally perform. Somebody who wants to meditate can’t meditate optimally if they’re aren- they aren’t doing all those things. And there is a a term for that in yoga, yamas and niyamas. Building the moral and physical abilities which enable you to have optimal performance and optimal experiences of reality And what I, when I got together with Luke, I recognized a kindred soul much younger than me and what journey he was on.

He had the unique ability… He had spontaneous lucid dreams of, That were very unusual in the

Sam Believ: literature Let, let’s give let’s give listeners some perspective ’cause not everyone knows Luke. Richard, Dr. Richard Suter is mentor for Luke Jensen. Luke Jensen I’ve interviewed him maybe 20 episodes before this.

He is the founder of Neuro Enlightenment, which is the company with which we as LaWayra partnered and started collecting data on people at the retreat before and after the Ayahuasca experience. So we’ve we’ve now collected probably more than a couple hundred samples of brain QEG brain maps before and after, and found some very fascinating things.

So we’re planning to do a study and also we offer to people neurofeedback as a tool for integration post-retreat. So that’s that’s Luke Richard’s mentioning. So yeah I, I think Luke found you and you were very excited to meet him because you were looking for someone like him to explore with with the psychedelics because I think the unique you have this unique perspective where you you have dealt with psychedelics yourself and you’ve explored it, so you were not closed like some people in the scientific sphere that would be like, “Yeah, no, this is not cool.

Only, science is cool.” But you have the complete picture. So yeah, I I think that’s enough of perspective, so let’s go back. Tell the story.

Dr. Richard Soutar: Yeah. Thank you for that. I often leave things like that out. I’ve got so much coming and going in my i-i- in terms of what I wanna say.

But, there are scientists, a lot of them who speak from complete ignorance, and unless you’ve had a psychedelic experience, you only have half the information. That’s part of my approach to science is to integrate qualitative and quantitative data. And science, up until very recently, has only focused on quantitative data and is now realizing that qualitative data is something that has to be explored scientifically and is the other half of the story.

And a lot of my interest has been in quantum mechanics and people who are working on game theory in terms of expecting, exploring reality. There’s incredible support in science for what we’re doing. David Bohm in particularly wrote about the implicate order, and I think I’ve read his book four or five times.

He’s a brilliant physicist who developed a, quantum holographics and how everything is connected both in terms of physics and the equations that he’s derived, and it’s connected holographically. So every part of the universe is contained in every other part of it to some degree, and that’s part of the reality that you experience in meditation or psychedelic experiences.

It’s an aperture a doorway into seeing the fundamental nature of all things and getting in touch with that, and also seeing it in yourself. That’s fundamental to psychedelic experience if you don’t get distracted by all the beings and the dimensions and the sensory stuff. Those are interesting journeys, but like Potenza says, they’re just journeys, and they’re journeys of knowledge.

If you take them, they’re good for you because you… They are offering you knowledge to resolve your attachments. All these beings you run into, the dimensions- … are healing you by taking you on small journeys to play out your own personal drama and to relinquish your own personal attachments.

Because

Sam Believ: it’s calling- Yeah, so one of the very underlying things with all psychedelic experiences, different types of psychedelics and also like spirituality. Spirituality is large, is that understanding of us all being connected, and I think that’s the core of it. But before we go deeper, I think we need to educate the, the audience about what is that you do, neurofeedback and brain brain training, ’cause they don’t really know. What is, Let’s let’s teach them. What is neurofeedback? What is brain training? What is it that we do, and kinda in a more practical way?

Dr. Richard Soutar: Yeah, I’ve written several books on it which you can find on Amazon, which are, which can take you to the depths of it in every dimension.

But essentially, you’re taking a person’s brainwaves, and everybody has fundamentally the same set of brainwaves, and we give… We break the brainwaves down into categories, and we give names to them like delta, theta, alpha, beta. And you can take any one of those categories of brainwaves and put sensors on somebody’s head and record them in real time, and you can see them on your computer screen.

And then you can t- you can pick and choose which of those brainwaves you want to feed back to the person. And so you create a feedback loop be- between the brain and itself, a selective feedback loop to enhance certain brainwaves or reduce certain brainwaves. And by doing that, you change you…

it’s like a form of exercise choosing particular muscles and particular weights to work on to develop them. You can develop your thigh muscles or your lats or your pecs by picking different weights and doing different exercises. You can do the same thing with your brain. You can strengthen areas or diminish the strength of areas that are participating in the brain by choosing brainwave frequencies and feeding them back to the brain, and it’s a form of exercise as well as a form of learning. That form of learning is natural to the brain because that’s what it does to all perception. It takes in perception, it selects certain perceptions, and then feeds it back to itself. We are, are– we select our own perceptions and there’s a confirmation bias to everything we do.

We, in a way, we create ourselves as much as the world creates us through the selections of the sensory input. Brainwave technology allows you to select where you’d like to have strengths and train those areas. The– It works through what’s called operant conditioning in psychology. And that’s basically the model for how all animals learn.

And then there’s also a type of learning which is called task learning, which is non-conscious involuntary learning, and that’s the way children and babies learn language and baseball and everything else. Most of sports is task learning. It’s involuntary learning. In the neurofeedback that we do at NuMind, we focus on involuntary task learning.

And we… That’s the most effective we found, and it’s a natural and easy way to train your brain. So you can make a map of your brain, an electrical map, and with our equipment and it looks like a topographic map mountains and valleys on a topographic map. You can make maps of the electrical activity in your brain determine which areas are unusually low or high, and you can train them creatively in different ways to improve brain function or get rid of symptoms you might have.

So y- you’re using that mapping technique to see what happens before and after Ayahuasca or mescaline, and we’ve looked at that too. And we found that Ayo- Luke and I found that Ayahuasca generally pushes the brain into a more optimal state than most people, which is a a really cool thing to find.

Nobody had ever looked at that before. And so Luke is pursuing that and similar projects a- with you And you’re the only one really doing that kind of work. It’s interesting, back in the in, in the ’20s and ’30s they first is- isolated mescaline in the labs, and then later on LSD. But a lot of the European intellectuals were, and writers were exploring hallucinogens and writing about them, and some very famous writers, and they wrote novels based on them, which are very famous novels.

And there were also visual artists and composers. So it has been a natural progress for our civilization on the artistic or qualitative side to incorporate th- this type of psychedelic experience. But we’re doing it now in a scientific way. And we’re just on the ground floor of it and just starting it.

There’ll be scientists with greater skills and greater equipment down the road, but right now we’re all pi- pioneers of this, and it’s an exciting place to be. But the most exciting thing to me is that we’re paving a road for others to be a- able to access these optimal experiences of being connected and complete.

And and that also optimizes their experience of life and their relations with other people, and optimizes life for all of us and our c- the communities we’re in. So this has very little downsides if it’s done properly.

Sam Believ: So Luka, Luke said you’ve seen some of the results from some of the information that we collect here before and after, and that you were very impressed with the changes.

What have you observed with the changes in the brain after people doing a one-week Ayahuasca retreat?

Dr. Richard Soutar: A, a brain map is a database like ours has– collects ours has millions of maps literally from people from all walks of life, and we have assessment ins-instruments, and we can look at people who have extreme disorder in their life, and people have high levels of order and are optimal performers, and we map all those people.

So we can clean the data and make it anonymous and then analyze the data for what that spectrum of experience looks like in terms of brain map, that life experience. So people who are optimal performers, we can find them and look at them and create a database, which we have done of of highly functional people.

And so we know in terms of electrical activity what highly functional people look like. And when we map you before an ayahuasca experience, we look at how different you are in terms of functionality with optimal people. And then after the ayahuasca experience, has that changed? And we find that almost everybody moves more towards the norm, statistical norm of our database for optimal functionling– functioning as a consequence of ayahuasca.

But what we wanna look at is how long does that last, because often from psychedelic experience, that improvement dissipates to some degree over a period of about three months. The same thing happens in transcranial mag-magnetic stimulation. Because the brain tends to return to its old patterns those are the ones it feels at home at and which it finds as most successful in the life that a person has created for himself or herself.

But, the psychedelic experience says you have to change your life experience. It challenges you, but most people don’t change it that much. They drift slowly back towards it. So we wanna see how long that experience is sustained, how long the drift is, and we try to measure that, And at the same time, we can put people on neurofeedback training after those experiences and see how lo- much longer they can sustain or even improve upon those changes in the psychedelic experience.

And that’s a really cool thing because I’ve taken people who’ve done transcranial magnetic stimulation a- and other types of interventions and were backsliding and stopped the backsliding and moved them forward again and improving their functionality and even transcending the level they were at.

So that’s exciting. By mating these two technologies together, you have a powerful technology for transformation.

Sam Believ: So Luke’s finding was that if, let’s say, some area of the brain is overly active, then the psychedelics make it more closer to normal. And if, i- if in this, in a different person, the same area of the brain is underactive, it pushes it up more towards normal.

So it’s very paradoxical from the point of view. It’s it’s a it’s a, it’s same as saying if you have a cup of coffee and when it’s morning it activates you, but then if you drink the same coffee in the evening it makes you more sleepy. So how does the same substance pushes the, the area of the brain up or down depending on what’s needed and it combining that question with how do you think psychedelics work on the brain?

Like basically with your knowledge as as a scientist and like everything you know about the brain, what is the mechanism in your opinion?

Dr. Richard Soutar: Yeah. There is very little information and people who speak knowingly about it are just speculating because there is very little research on that actually and there…

That’s what we need. That’s why we’re doing this. Again, this is just the ground floor of it may even be the basement of all this investigation into these technologies. But psychedelics do something similar in terms of arousal to meditation in that it moves the center frequency of the brain slightly lower.

And so puts them in a state between a special type of liminal state, and we talk about liminal states in anthropology a lot. Drumming can put you in liminal states. Fire gazing can put you in liminal states. Pain can put you in liminal states. The Cheyenne did the sun worship exercises which caused horrific pain and it put them in those states.

Psychedelics can put you in states. So their liminal states are a great variety of states in between waking and sleep. The human brain in our civilization we look at it as there’s waking and there’s sleep, and there’s nothing in between. But actually in the literature, and if you look at the brain while it’s doing different things, there are a whole host of states.

I liken it to being thinking that you only live in a two-story house and you work in the upstairs floor, and when your day is done, you get in the elevator and go downstairs to go to sleep, and your consciousness drifts into sleep. When actually you live in a, a, a high-rise building and there’s lots of floors and lots of things going on them, but you go zooming past them because you’ve never been told they’re there and never been taught how to access them.

But our ancestors developed a lot of primitive technologies, including plant medicines, for gaining access to those different levels of consciousness. When you change the arousal level of the brain, you change its functionality dramatically. You have access to different information in terms of perception and abilities at different levels of arousal.

We use subtle levels of arousal shifts during our waking day. Now you focus intensely on something or you relax your focus, and as you do that, your heart rate and your respiration and different, your whole hypothalamic pituitary axis, all of it alters as you do it and it adjusts, when you take drugs, again, that adjusts the whole physiology and brain state of the person. But these liminal states were where people went to deal with trauma of everyday life because it was brutal in primitive world. And most people today can’t understand unless they live in some place like Gaza or Ukraine, the brutality of primitive life often was And for much of early civilization.

And most of our species is traumatized and we behave in ways which reflect that trauma and pass it on to our children, and it’s called transgenerational behavior. And indeed, there’s lots of evidence on the scientific level that it’s also recorded in our RNA. And there’s been studies that found that meditation can alter the DNA and RNA of a person, and no doubt psychedelics can do the same.

So they shake up our DNA and RNA at a fundamental level, at least temporarily, and they alter our arousal system. It’s almost like whenever you go through te- intense experiences, you you have… It throws you off balance, and then you have to, Process a long time to rebalance yourself. And out of that reorganization or processing in your brain, you come up with new insights and new learning that enhances your functionality.

With trauma, that process gets blocked. You shrink from engaging new ways of being, thinking, or doing. But psychedelics shake the whole system up, just like intense other experiences. It’s why people go for skydiving and so forth. All these intense experiences force upon you a reorganization at a neurological level of large-scale networks which are in the brain, which process information force different kinds of pathways to integration between ancient primitive parts of the brain which are involved in emotion and help to educate you, change you, make you more functional.

But if you’re overwhelmed by trauma, they tend to block it. And things like psychedelics and neurofeedback can… and ritual, drumming, chanting, dancing like Native Americans do, can help put you in states of consciousness where you’re able to integrate all of that trauma and gain back your balance and ground you in your natural creativity, and that generates more vitality and higher functionality.

So it’s always, the world is a challenging place, and that’s good for us in pushing us to our limits. But it’s not good for us when it pushes us beyond our limits, and we can’t get back on our feet, and that’s what leads to a lot of mental disorder So these ancient practices are healing to us.

They can be incorporated in plant medicine can be incorporated into the new technologies like neurofeedback, which is just another form of our effort to recover from trauma, to integrate, and to have optimal experience. So really, we’re carrying on the tradition in the, the modern world. It’s just that technology is our vehicle rather than plant medicines and dancing and singing.

And that doesn’t mean we should exclude them. We should incorporate them, just like yoga. Yoga’s a higher level of all of those. Yoga came out of that effort to integrate, to overcome trauma. And yoga’s older than Buddha, and Buddha really wasn’t that successful until he integrated yoga. And that’s…

So that ancient tradition, that refinement of it in ancient methods and eventually in yoga, has now shown up in our civilization as neurofeedback. We’re going up one level, and the next level may be-

Sam Believ: You call it electronic yoga, right?

Dr. Richard Soutar: Yep. That’s the way everybody who’s experienced it at a deep level has described it

Sam Believ: This episode is sponsored by La Wayra Ayahuasca Retreat.

Most of La Wayra if you’ve been listening to this podcast for a while. Some of you might have already been to La Wayra before. For those who don’t know us yet, we started La Wayra four years ago. At La Wayra, we combine authenticity, accessibility, and affordability. La Wayra is currently highest-rated Ayahuasca retreat in South America with more than 700 five-star reviews and an average rating of five stars.

If you come to La Wayra, you’ll experience powerful, authentic ceremonies led by our indigenous shaman, Fernando, in a very beautiful venue just one hour south of Medellín, Colombia. We’re surrounded by nature and have comforts like hot water, Wi-Fi. At La Wayra, our team has guided more than 2,500 people through this life-changing transformation of Ayahuasca experience.

At the same time, we keep it very affordable. So whether you’re coming for healing, clarity, or a deeper connection to yourself, La Wayra is the best choice. If it is your first time drinking Ayahuasca, you will love our three-and-a-half-hour preparation course and integration support. All of that is included in price as well as pickup from Medellín, accommodation in Ayahuasca.

Visit lawayra.com to book your retreat or learn more. La Wayra, connect, heal, grow. L-A-W-A-Y-R-A.com. Buddha didn’t have those kinds of tools maybe we get new generations of Buddhas that are forced, that have both psychedelics and neurofeedback, and yoga, and meditation, and AI maybe

Dr. Richard Soutar: we’ll get them- I

Sam Believ: think so.

Dr. Richard Soutar: I think so.

Sam Believ: Yeah.

Dr. Richard Soutar: It’s a very promising thing, and we have to do it, they s- they have a saying at MIT, most of the best discoveries take place in the garages outside of the campus rather than on campus.

Because it’s so constrained by formality and tradition that real exploration and discovery can’t take place except on the fringes of the university,

Sam Believ: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. You talk a lot about default mode network and you have deep understanding of it. Let’s talk about this because obviously psychedelics affect default mode network, and so does neurofeedback. What is the role of default mode network and healing from trauma and like those rigid patterns?

Dr. Richard Soutar: It’s it’s the focus of the public and clinicians. People in psychology are very focused on it. But it transcends the default mode network. There are three major large scale networks which are involved in it, the central executive, the salience, and the default mode. And they work together.

The central executive is focusing on the outer world, and the default mode system is focusing on the inner world. It’s a self-referential. Whenever you think about yourself or how you interact with the world you’re looking up or in backwards into your mind. That’s… you’re engaging the default mode network.

When you look outward, you’re engaging the central executive network and analyzing the world outside you. The salience network is your attention, and it shifts from external to internal constantly all the time. People with mental disorder tend to get stuck on the internal. There are versions of mental disorder where they’re stuck on the external.

What you want is a healthy balance. That’s how the system works the best. So it’s really the three networks. And the person who proposed that theory was one of the was one of the people who did a meta-analysis of MRI research. And he was a expert in s- exploring sca- met networks and how they scale in the human brain and how they work.

And he proposed this just around af- 2011, 2012 this triple network theory. And it– that’s really the dominant theory, and it’s really the most useful one to use even when you’re talking about psychedelics, about those three networks, and you can

Sam Believ: Google that Yeah. So we talked about how the improvement with psychedelics, it’s very strong and it’s very powerful and it’s very quick, but then the improvement starts to dissipate.

And that’s why what we’re trying to do here is to bring neurofeedback. Of course, we… people that are leaving the retreat, we provide them with ideas for behavior changes to keep themselves in that state. And actually we provide them with integration journal so that they can take the information they got from the psychedelic experiences and then implement them- Very important

in their life. And one of those things now is also the neuro the brain training or neurofeedback. We want them to go back home and start doing it. Of course, it’s it’s a technologically complex process and it costs some extra money and, But what do you think is the mechanism there? Of course, like we see and we think it’s a good tool.

How do you think it work? Is it because the psychedelics provide the neuroplasticity and then, Exactly … neurofeedback can take place faster? What do you think about that?

Dr. Richard Soutar: I think that’s exactly it. You hit the nail on the head, and I never told you that, or you never mentioned it, but it became obvious to you.

And I think it becomes obvious to everybody. Like I said, psychedelics shake the system up. They it generates neuroplasticity. You are rigid when you come into the psychedelic experience, and then it shakes you up. That was, part of the reason Luke used martial arts in, in his in his clinic to prepare people for the experience.

Because martial arts is like yamas and niyamas in yoga. It’s the exercises to prepare you for meditation. You have to do exercise to prepare yourself for for the psychedelic experience if you really wanna get the optimal experience out of it. And that kind of discipline carries over after the experience.

Having developed whatever degree you can of that discipline, you can now apply that discipline to other areas of your life. So if, for instance, you pursue martial arts at a high level, sooner or later you run into a master teacher who starts teaching you about how to manage energy and focus. And and there’s a spiritual aspect to it.

And that’s critical to optimal martial arts, for instance. So- That introduces the highly trained person to a new level of experience and discipline that optimizes their life. If you add neurofeedback into that that creates A way of supercharging that ability, ’cause people don’t always fully optimize their discipline.

Neurofeedback can help you develop discipline, can help you get control over urges, can help you manage the areas that are a weakness for you in life. And so neurofeedback I’ve trained people in martial arts and sports in golf in particular. They’ve been astounded by how it’s optimized their ability.

I’ve worked on, last 25 or 30 years with golfers and top executives. And it was interesting ’cause all the top executives play golf, and all of them said I’m really here to optimize my experience in the boardroom.” And I always say what about your golf game?” They say that doesn’t matter.”

But after a month of training, they say, “I’m killing it on the golf course. I love this technology.” I say what about your boardroom?” That’s good too, but that’s not as exciting as the golf.” So you see, it’s it’s what they love to do, and their creativity and ability on the golf course is massively enhanced, and they’re successful.

They’re beating all their friends in competition, and that carries over into their business experience and their confidence in their business experience as well. So there’s different ways that you can train and manage your discipline. That’s part of what art is. Art disciplines you to and teaches you to manage both your mental and physical abilities.

These are all going back to discipline and creativity and insight these fundamental skills, and I think at the heart of it is creativity. Every human being at the center is a highly creative being, and that creativity is generated from the same source as our life itself. Life itself is an expression of creativity and play.

And if you can discipline yourself through recreation that’s the highest form of discipline. Whatever you love to do, tennis, golf skiing crocheting even.

Me too.

Sam Believ: So one one thing that happened to you personally, and I know you’re not just a creator of the method and chief scientist, but you’re also using it on yourself, and something happened to you.

I don’t know if you wanna talk about it, but about the case of long COVID you had and how you recovered from it using- Oh, yeah … the technology.

Dr. Richard Soutar: I think it’s very important to get the word out. I had long COVID and as you may or may not know, COVID causes the blood to thicken and coagulate, and that’s often what kills people.

It does that in different organ systems, and I’m being very simplistic, but basically that’s it. It also ha- causes that in the brain, and that happened to me in the, in my brain as a consequence of long COVID. I had a minor stroke, and I lost my ability to speak, to work on the computer to work my cell phone.

I was basically, My wife said you s- you look and sound like an idiotic drunk that I f- got out of the alley.” And I couldn’t function at all, or speak or anything. I could make… I could try to speak, but the words were all mumbling. Sounded like I was drunk all the time. What I did was I meditated.

I did neurofeedback, and of course, I did I practiced keyboard. I took up the keyboard especially. I always wanted to focus on it more, and practiced that to get my brain and my hands working, which are critical for motor f- function. And between the neurofeedback and the keyboard work, I, got most of my functionality back.

Now if I get tired I have trouble remembering words. And I still don’t do recall As good as I used to. I used to be able to recall in detail names and dates and research going back 20 years. I can’t quite do it at the same level, but it’s pretty close. That was a real eye-opener for me. And I’ve had s- lots of experiences like that with neurofeedback going through physical challenges.

But also i- in my work in a– as a clinician, dealing with all of other people’s physical challenges and seeing them go through it at a very personal level gives a real insight into h- human resilience, the ability to human beings recover. We got people who were in their wheelchairs and couldn’t talk, and one side of their body w- couldn’t function, and we got them up walking and talking and in some cases driving again and living a, a normal life.

They weren’t perfectly normal, but they reorganized their brain to a point where they could do all the activities of daily living and live a life that was worth living, where they felt they had value and could contribute to life as

Sam Believ: well. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing your story and congratulations on recovering so well because you’re smarter and you speak better than most people that never had a stroke.

And I’m wondering if, I wanna invite you to come here with Luke sometimes and do an Ayahuasca retreat with us, and then do some more brain training and see if that takes you even to to, to the next level. Because obviously with that neuroplasticity and some other effects that Ayahuasca can have on you.

I have my next question is, you talked about high performance and obviously talked about healing, and that’s also there’s a parallel both with neurofeedback and work with Ayahuasca because some people come here to heal and some people come here to learn about the world and do spiritual expression and grow, and you can achieve both depe- depending on which stage of life you’re in.

How different or how similar is that process? And yeah, do people just heal first and then they start, becoming better at things, or it just happens simultaneously? Is there a way to choose what you wanna work on at this, at any particular time?

Dr. Richard Soutar: That’s really the heart of the matter.

And really I think a great question and reflects your a deep understanding of what you’re doing and what you’re engaged in. My experience and, a-a-and yours may be different everybody’s a little bit different in how they go through the process, but there’s a general trend to it.

And usually the trend is I like the hero’s journey, like Joseph Campbell talks about. You have to integrate y-your trauma. You’ve gone out into the world, you’ve grown up, you’ve encountered it, you’ve been traumatized and that sets you off on a journey for a solution, a, a golden fleece or a, a treasure or a escape from the maze and the m- the Minotaur.

You go on a journey, and the journey is both outward and inward, and you have to make the journey out and in. And you t– in that journey, you learn how to heal your- heal yourself. You engage other people, other beings, other energies, places, and you become healed. And at that point you begin to develop more in a spiritual direction.

And al-almost everybody in neurofeedback that I’ve worked with, which is thousands at this point in brain mapping have gone through that process of integrating trauma reorganizing and healing, and then seeking a spiritual dimension speaking, seeking peak performance in that dimension.

And whether it means going back to a church or off to discover Ayahuasca or onto other forms of neurofeedback most of the people I’ve worked with Have basically gone in that pattern. And I write about that in my book Managing Trauma with Al-Alpha Theta and Neurofeedback Alpha Theta. I discuss that in detail, and the book goes into, to the physiology, the electrophysiology, the history of trauma where you end up post-trauma integration and the history of of moving from that trauma integration into a spiritual domain, whether you’re talking about Elisabeth Kubler-Ross or psychiatry or anything or even some of the best psychiatrists, I’m not psychiatrist– psychologists we’ve had in history have looked at it as a, a pattern like that too So I think that’s the general direction of it.

Until you’re sh-shaken to the bone and the world really gets your attention, you don’t go on the journey of healing and beyond, and that’s where- Yeah … the journey goes.

Sam Believ: There does need to be that rock bottom, and sometimes people are not gonna be ready till they hit that. And unfortunately I have people in my life like this, like my family members where I wish they would engage with all these beautiful things like be it Ayahuasca or neurofeedback or, yoga, meditation.

But they’re just not ready.

Dr. Richard Soutar: No.

Sam Believ: And th-there where I see big potential for psychedelics is that in me personally, my healing journeys began from my first Ayahuasca experience. It moved something in me and made me available to it. I like your approach to balancing spirituality and science.

Obviously you’re a spiritual person who is also a scientist. And what I wanna talk about is you study the brain and there’s spiritual states or, those transcendent states. They’re also the brain states. So what is, how can we use psychedelics and neurofeedback to make someone more spiritual?

Or make, for example, make make a shaman more connected or make a person that can, read people’s mind more talented at that because like as, as Luke likes to say, everything is just a brain state. So w-w-do you wanna talk about this?

Dr. Richard Soutar: Yeah. That’s a, that’s an area for more science and more exploration.

So what I offer is just an opinion, and your opinion to some degree is as good as mine, ’cause that’s the point. Everybody has to sort that out for themselves and it depends on the technologies at hand. The technologies which deliver you are often the ones you cling to. But I would say do not cling to any of the technologies too much.

Always remain flexible investigate new ones. But each technology can take you in a, at a different level and in different ways, whether it’s drumming, chanting, Ayahuasca other psychedelics, mescaline LSD or whether neurofeedback. They can all take you to different levels and different experiences.

It’s it’s– you really have to decide for yourself.

Sam Believ: You studied brainwaves or QEG brain maps of meditators and you say that some people think they’re meditating but they’re not actually meditating. And you find that they… Some people have been meditating wrong for 10 years. Talk to us about that, and also for those who are listening and they’re freaking out right now, like how does one maybe self-diagnose if they’re meditating correctly?

Dr. Richard Soutar: Self-diagnosis is really tough. You have to have meditational experience and experience with EEG, extensive experience with EEG. To come to that answer t-t-to discern that. But, it’s really hard to talk about that in an elevator pitch and on a brief podcast. People have to, it, it just stops me dead even th- thinking about it. I use the tradition of yoga and the Eastern meditators as a guide to what I’m doing. I have found them to be reliable reporters and guides to everything I’ve experienced in psychedelics and otherwise, and even in terms of where my end journey is going a-and I am particularly fond of Zen Buddhism, and a lot of my perspective is around that.

And there have been… there was a book by on Zen Buddhism called “Zen in the Brain” by James Austin, which is probably the most exhaustive explanation of altered states and peak states and what y- what your, what p- our traditional ancestors thought was the most peak state, nirvana or satori, that there is that can be achieved, or series of states in that direction.

And that’s my meta model. That’s what I guide. And there are a lot of people studying EEG and meditational techniques because there are huge numbers of them who both have experienced those meditational techniques and are also scientists studying them, and that gives them a great leg up on understanding all of this.

But I think we’re all using those maps To guide us at this point. I would say, you don’t wanna hear what I’m gonna say, but I would say psychedelics are great up to a point, but they can only take you to that point. You have to go… You have to… Once they open you up, you have to go on the journey in your everyday consciousness, in your everyday experience, and find the path forward in everyday life, in the everyday mind, as we say.

So everyday mind- No, I agree … is the ac- I agree

Sam Believ: with you. Yeah, I don’t believe that there’s a one thing or this magic bullet that can fix everything, and I believe in this perfect protocol that w- in which psychedelics and neurofeedback and many other modalities play a role. I would think it would be something like one ayahuasca retreat a year and maybe couple smaller mushroom experiences or mescaline experiences, and then regular neurofeedback and weekly yoga and daily meditation and healthy diet with good amounts of healthy fat just so your brain can even do everything you wanna do and other forms.

A- and exercise, and so I don’t think ayahuasca is everything, but I just think ayahuasca is that door- Yes … that you open that will allow you to access all of the other modalities and healing ways, because that’s kinda what it did for me. But I think you did not completely answer my question about the meditation where, whereas some people, they meditated but they meditated not deeply enough, and that’s just once they do neurofeedback for the first time, they finally access that state.

I don’t even know how we can answer it, but…

Dr. Richard Soutar: there, there’s certain s- there’s certain signatures. It’s, and the- they’re well-reported in the literature, and that’s… You can find it. It’s, because there are many kinds of meditations, the research that’s been done has found many types of brain signatures.

Probably the, the most popular and simple ex-example is Richie Davidson’s research. It was 20 years ago. He found that there were specific states with specific types of meditations that were the same across individuals. So you could do concentrated meditation or you could do compassionate meditation, and when people engaged in tho- those techniques, they had the same brain signature across all subjects.

So they are actual real states, but there are many other types of meditation, many other types, and they have particular signatures. So meditation doesn’t have just one signature. But generally speaking, Theravada meditation and which is ancient classical Buddhist and Zen meditation has been very highly studied, and they’re the fundamental what we usually mean when we refer to meditation in general, generic.

And they both have the same signatures, and they’ve been quite a bit of research on them. And a person in a meditative state has an alpha frequency that moves down into towards seven, around 7.8 hertz when they’re getting into meditative state. They have a breath rate which is moving down towards five or six breaths per minute.

The they tend to have a much stronger exhale than inhale, and it’s delayed exhale, so they’re changing the blood oxygen mix in their bodies. The- they tend to have a certain amount of high frequency gamma and beta waves which are episodically appearing in their temporal lobes. They have high levels of alpha synchrony, so it’s synchronized alpha throughout the brain.

And coherence. And so those are some of the unique characteristics. Their heart rate variability shows high levels of coherence, but not the type of coherence that they’re teaching people to do popularly. It’s what I call, in physiology, when you’re breathing, you have breathing which is more taking in more oxygen and in a s- in a sense reduces CO2, and you have a type of breathing which I call meditative breathing, where you’re taking in less oxygen and keeping the CO2, but oxygenating your body more.

It’s a paradoxical thing And that meditational breathing has a cohe- heart rate coherence, which is unique and it’s called the mayor wave effect. And so the heart and the brain are synchronized. The breathing around five or six hertz… five or six breaths per minute. The coherence around 0.1 hertz, and the brainwaves around 10 hertz that settles into 7.8 hertz, and then the whole body resonates.

So that mayor wave effect is a reflection of a physiological Fibonacci sequence that occurs synchronistically between all the systems of the body. So it’s a highly unique state, and in that state you can experience reality directly. But to say what it is, it’s like Lao Tzu said, “He who says do not know, and he who who knows does not say,” because it can’t be expressed.

It ha- can only be experienced. But you could intellectually say you experience that part of your world, of yourself, of your being, of your consciousness, which is holographically the same as the rest of the whole universe, that the whole universe is in you and you are in the whole universe, and fundamentally, you’re bliss and pure light And that’s what everybody is attracted to.

Addicts are attracted to it. Peak performer, they’re all trying to achieve that state, and really what it is a state of a, of absorption into our fundamental nature. And it is ultimately the most satisfying because that’s who we really are, and that’s where we are at all times even though we think we’re living this life, we’re really in that st- grounded in that state.

And when this life resolves, we go back to that because our attention and everything can’t sustain it in this dimension. It goes back to your original be- state of being. Yeah. And then book… and Zen they said, “What is your face like before you were born?” That’s a great poem they have.

Sam Believ: E- even though it’s pretty ineffable, I think you described it very beautifully, and thank you for this.

I’ve felt those states in, in Ayahuasca as well. I- it’s kinda like- Yes … I guess could also be described as a state of unity with God-

Dr. Richard Soutar: Yes …

Sam Believ: where like you don’t really need anything else.

Dr. Richard Soutar: Yes.

Sam Believ: My… I have a

Dr. Richard Soutar: question for you.

Sam Believ: That’s what makes

Dr. Richard Soutar: a great state. That’s what makes Ayahuasca so attractive.

But…

Sam Believ: Yeah. When when you work with people you say that you notice that some people are not ready to heal because they’re afraid they’re gonna lose the edge. And also when people do finally heal, that it’s a very uncomfortable state to actually be finally healed. Can you talk to us about that?

Dr. Richard Soutar: Yeah. That’s great. You’ve read some of my stuff somewhere. That’s… Or listened to it. That’s one of the amazing things we found with neurofeedback when we were doing alpha-theta with people. What The best example is I a woman who came in who said that she was a nurse and she was really committed to do, to suicide if the af- if the neurofeedback didn’t work.

But she didn’t tell us that. She came in she was depressed, suicidal. We suspected she was suicidal, but she had definite plans which she wouldn’t reveal to us. We found that out later. After doing all the training that we did, and we used a lot of visualization and shamanic visualizations in our alpha-theta training, so it’s not purely psychological in the modern sense.

Some of it’s traditional. After she was done with the training, she’d gotten new friends, she’d changed jobs, changed apartments, dressed differently did her hair differently was doing exercises with eating properly and was sleeping well. She had all new friends and she said, “I don’t know who I am anymore.

I’m not– And it’s very uncomfortable, and I kinda wish I could just go back to being that depressed, screwed-up person, and I’m torn between these two worlds.” And of course, we said, “We suggest that you continue on the path towards your spiritual life.” And she did. She pursued that path. But it’s very uncomfortable to move out of your familiar behaviors, and sometimes you want to cling to your suffering because it feels safer and more comfortable than the unknown that could emerge from your change.

And you have to move into that change with a certain amount of faith. Neural feedback gives you a sense of bulletproof that helps with that. That’s why one of the reasons it’s so powerful. It really centers you all the time and you– as you move into those different states. I’ve had lots of people go through that experience, but sometimes people can’t let go of their experience.

They are so traumatized, they are clinging so hard, and medications make it even harder ’cause medications put a straight jacket on you neurologically. They keep you safe, but that safe place is limiting. That’s also a, a metaphor for people in their real life. They get to some place in their life where they’re really unhappy, but they’re really safe.

Maybe you become a successful business person. Like I had one person who said that he was a person high up in Microsoft, and he said “I’m a very successful person. I work for Microsoft. I make huge amounts of money, but I still don’t know who I wanna be when I grow up.”

His wife was severely depressed and stuck there, and we moved her out of that and we moved him towards his direction. Now, marriages like that might not stay the same. They were predicated upon rigid exa- rigid, ways of being and doing

Sam Believ: and being We’re talking about

Dr. Richard Soutar: the- Yeah. And then you grow and you change, you may have to move apart in different directions.

That would also be uncomfortable and something you’d be afraid of. So there’s these challenges of letting go of your old self. Of course, every– my wife said “Old age is a, a forced march into non-attachment,” which describes old age really well, being a senior. All those things that you didn’t wanna let go, you’re being forced to.

But if you don’t have that golden thread of spirit, spiritual practice to latch onto you go into a tailspin, which can lead to a shorter life a unsatisfactory life, a, a feel of– feeling of failure. And that’s why it’s so important early in life to develop that golden thread, that spiritual thread that leads you out of the maze, out of the Minotaur’s grasp of trauma.

Sam Believ: Yeah. Beautifully said. Beautifully said, Richard. Thank you so much for this episode. Thank you for your knowledge. Thank you for the work you do. And yeah, before we wrap up, just any last words for the audience or where can they find you? Which one of your books do you want them to read, et cetera?

Dr. Richard Soutar: “The Automatic Self,” which is an older book, is written for the general public in very easy and simple terms. It takes you up… It kinda gives you a way to look at things. The book on trauma is– can be read by, people with who can, who are generally well-read. It’s called “Managing Trauma with Alpha-Theta Neurofeedback.”

I’ve seen people with… it’s, again it’s a little higher level than, college or high school, but there’s parts of it which are very readable. And I think reading those two books would really give you a great insight. Actually how to do neurofeedback, we have a book called “Doing Neurofeedback,” which describes in detail how to do it, all of it.

And that is meant for people who wanna gauge it at the peak performance and the do it yourself people. But it was really written for clinicians who are licensed. You sh- it’s not something… Neurofeedback’s not something you should pursue at a high level on people with mental disorders, but on people who are relatively healthy, it’s fine the

Sam Believ: the company And you have a great YouTube channel as well, right?

What’s the YouTube channel name?

Dr. Richard Soutar: The what? What was the matter?

Sam Believ: The YouTube channel name.

Dr. Richard Soutar: Oh Nu Mind Technologies YouTube.

Sam Believ: Yeah. It’s pretty good. There’s some lectures. I enjoyed it.

Dr. Richard Soutar: Yeah.

I’m-

Sam Believ: Thank you so much for your-

Dr. Richard Soutar: I’d like to say I’d like to return it, and I’d like to say thank you for engaging in the, these technologies, and for having the type of clinic you have, and for pursuing it with enthusiasm.

We need many more people like you. I hope you have many students and are very successful. And if I can help you in any way, don’t hesitate

Sam Believ: Thank you so much, Richard. Guys, you’ve been listening to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, with you, the host Sam Believ, and I’ll see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed this episode.

If you’d like to support us and psychedelic renaissance at large, please follow us and leave us a wherever it is you’re listening. Share this episode with someone who will benefit from this information. Nothing in this podcast is intended as medical advice, and it is for educational and entertainment purposes only.

This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat. At LaWayra, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity. LaWayra, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you

In this episode of Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ (founder of http://www.lawayra.com) has a conversation with Steve DeAngelo. Steve DeAngelo is a world-renowned activist, author, and entrepreneur often recognized as the “Father of the Legal Cannabis Industry.” He co-founded Harborside Health Center and the Last Prisoner Project, a non-profit dedicated to freeing those incarcerated for cannabis. With over four decades of activism, Steve has been a central figure in transforming cannabis from a prohibited substance into a respected plant medicine and a global industry.

We touch upon topics of:

• 04:10 – Steve’s first spiritual experience with cannabis at age 13 in a neighborhood park.
• 06:30 – The racist origins of cannabis criminalization and its use as a tool of oppression.
• 09:15 – The devastating toll of the “War on Drugs” and mass incarceration on families.
• 11:50 – How targeting cannabis ships in the 1980s inadvertently sparked the cocaine surge.
• 16:40 – The counterproductive nature of drug prohibition and the rise of fentanyl.
• 20:25 – The mission of the Last Prisoner Project: Seeking justice for those still serving time.
• 24:10 – Cannabis as Mother Nature’s “kindest and most gentle plant teacher.”
• 26:50 – Archeological evidence of shamanic cannabis use dating back 12,500 years.
• 29:30 – The historical spread of cannabis from Central Asia through India, Africa, and Europe.
• 32:15 – Cannabis in ancient religion: Its presence in Egyptian mythology and the holy anointing oil of Jesus.
• 36:45 – The industrial versatility of hemp: From Levi’s jeans to construction materials like “Hempcrete.”
• 41:20 – The “Decriminalize Nature” movement and the rise of mushroom churches in Oakland.
• 45:00 – Resisting corporate colonization: The importance of community-centric psychedelic access.
• 48:30 – The fusion of traditions: Rastafari communities integrating Ayahuasca and Iboga into their practice.
• 52:15 – Exploring the feminine spirit of cannabis and its role in a world needing more cooperation.

If you would like to attend one of our Ayahuasca retreats go to http://www.lawayra.com

Find more about Steve DeAngelo at http://www.stevedeangelo.com and http://www.lastprisonerproject.org

Transcript

Steve DeAngelo: Cannabis is one of the major ingredients in the holy anointing oil that Jesus used to cure people, to restore sight to the blind. We called it divine madness. We were so in love with this plant that we decided that we would rather die than live in a society where it was not legal, where it didn’t have an honored and respected place.

I think of cannabis as Mother Nature’s kindest and most gentle plant teacher. She has many plant teachers. Psilocybin mushrooms are plant teachers. Peyote buttons are plant teachers. Ayahuasca, plant teacher. We don’t want the only legal route for psilocybin to be going to a therapist who’s using a substance produced by a pharmaceutical company and is charging 1,500, 2,000, 3,000, $10,000 for that psychedelic assisted therapy.

We wanna make sure that the people who love psychedelics are free to gather, are free to share them.

Sam Believ: You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast.com.

Hi, guys, and welcome to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, with you, the host, Sam Beliaf, and today I’m having a conversation with Steve DeAngelo. Often called father of legal cannabis industry, Steve DeAngelo is the world-renowned activist, author, and entrepreneur who spent over four decades on the front lines of the reform movement.

In 2006, he co-founded Harborside Health Center in Oakland, one of the first six licensed dispensaries in the US. Harborside set the gold standard for the modern industry, pioneering mandatory lab testing and the use of CBD for pediatric care. This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat. At LaWayra, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity.

LaWayra, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you. Steve, welcome to the show.

Steve DeAngelo: Thanks for having me, Sam.

Sam Believ: Steve, you have a very fascinating story, and there’s, It’s a story of endurance and it’s, You could easily have a movie made about you. But let’s start with your early life and what put you on this path, what brought you to, to work with plant medicines and cannabis specifically?

Steve DeAngelo: When I was 13 years old, a friend of mine invited me over to his house, the parents were not there, for a Mexican tea party. And turned out to be cannabis, which I knew. And I had this really very formative experience with the plant. And I I didn’t feel anything when we smoked the joint, and I started heading home feeling disappointed.

But my pathway home took me through a park. And this was a, a park that was, for me, a 13-year-old boy, it was just a thoroughfare. It was a shortcut to get from one place to another. I’d never really noticed anything about this park. But on this day, as I was walking home I started noticing things I’d never noticed like the way that the light was filtering through the trees and and showing the, the, the light through the leaves on the trees.

The way that underneath my feet there were dried leaves, and I could hear them crunching. I could smell their smell. And and down on the back of my neck, I could feel the same sun that had dried out those leaves raising beads of sweat on my neck. And I heard in the background the gurgling of a creek.

And there came this moment where all of these elements fused into one, and I felt like I was just there and I was present and I was in that web of life, that web of nature. And looking backwards, I recognize it as my first genuine spiritual experience. Then I only knew that something very profound had happened to me, and that I wanted this plant to be in my life forever, and that I also didn’t wanna be a criminal forever.

Sam Believ: Speaking of being a criminal tell us a story on why was cannabis criminalized?

Steve DeAngelo: Why was canna- cannabis was criminalized mainly not because of anything to do with the plant itself, but to do with the people who were using it. And and that was Black people and Brown people. Cannabis entered North America rather late by two vectors.

One was Afro-Caribbean sailors sailing into places like New Orleans, and the other was Mexican refugees who were fleeing the violence of the Mexican Revolution. This was all around 1910, in that period of time. And that’s when you started seeing the very first bans against hemp and and the first or very first bans against cannabis and laws being passed against it.

So it was really about who was using it and finding a legal tool of oppression to use in those communities.

Sam Believ: Yeah. You were alive, in that period when the war on drugs have started. For me when when I was growing up, it was already there and we just kind of– I assumed that all the drugs are same and they’re all bad.

It took me till my late 20s when I finally learned that not everything that’s Schedule I drug is actually a drug. A lot of those things are medicine. So I’m here in Colombia now, and which is one of the front lines of the the wars on drug, the war on drugs. Talk to us about the, the war on drugs and, the harms that it caused

Steve DeAngelo: Oh the the war on drugs and the mars- mass incarceration that went along with it was was really devastating.

And again, it was, centered in those Black and brown communities in the United States that that the powers that be wanted to bring under control. And so it was just a, a terrible campaign of oppression that was brought down on people. And I have friends who were growing up in that time who are people of color in New York, and they just describe, every day on their walk home from school seeing carloads of undercover folks who would jump out and throw them up against the wall.

And and, that daily terror was a factor of life for many years in the United States. It ultimately ended up in just to take the example of cannabis 40,000 people locked up nationwide for cannabis convictions. And so just a huge amount of harm visited on the people who were on the streets, visited on the people who were arrested, who were put on prison and on all of their families.

So it’s really taken a devastating qu- toll here in the United States. And then, of course, you’re in Colombia where we can see the, the harms that were created there. And we could go into them. There’s a whole long list.

Sam Believ: Let’s let’s talk a little about this a little bit, yes

Steve DeAngelo: Yeah.

Just to take one example. I first got introduced to Colombia, or at least Colombian contraband in the early 1970s when I was a young weed dealer in the suburbs of Washington, D.C., and I was selling this really beautiful Colombian gold cannabis that came from Santa Marta and those environs and were smuggled out through LaWayra.

And it was beautiful weed. It was some of the best weed that I’ve ever seen, and it was cheap. I was selling ounces of it for $35. The United States started putting pressure on the big freighters. There were freighters that were bringing up tons and tons of this Colombian cannabis at the time.

And so in 1980, I believe it was the US military was brought to bear to intercept these freighters that were bringing cannabis up from Colombia. And because they were large, slow-moving targets, that was quite effective. So then what happened in response was that there was this massive upsurge in cocaine smuggling into the United States which resulted partly, not entirely, that’s another story, but resulted partly from these attacks on the cannabis ships.

And so all the people or a lot of the people who were running those ships instead started running very fast cigarette boats that were much smaller targets that could outrun the Coast Guard ships that were chasing them. And that was when we saw the start of, really this kind of deluge of cocaine that came into the United States in the 1980s.

And then, of course, the militarization of that entire industry and trade down in Colombia

Sam Believ: Yeah, I believe if coca plant and even cocaine are just basically most of those drug w- drugs were legal and just kinda sold in pharmacies, the, the narcos wouldn’t have money to fund their armies and basically…

Like Colombia is like there’s the center of the country around the Cordilleras, which is controlled by government, and it’s safe, and it’s kinda where I am. But in the jungle or on the farther outlooks, like basically or all the b- closer to the borders, it’s it’s all controlled by those organized armed groups.

But a- as you said, they stop the weed, cocaine came. Now they, let’s say, they stop cocaine, fentanyl comes, whatever. People, I think, will always find a way to get high on something. So l- let’s talk about what do you think that the war on drugs is basically futile?

Steve DeAngelo: I’m sorry.

It was what?

Sam Believ: The, what do you think about war on drugs being futile?

Steve DeAngelo: Oh look, it’s it’s worse than futile, right? It, we saw the example of the weed market being disrupted by or coca- the weed market being disrupted and cocaine coming up in, in the ashes of that.

You saw the same thing with fentanyl, right? There was a huge amount of pressure that was put on the Mexican cartels who at that time were growing opium and processing it into heroin which resulted in a few overdoses, but not anywhere near as much as is being done with with fentanyl these days.

And again, we traded out one harm for an even greater harm. So it wasn’t just futile, it was it was e- extremely counterproductive. And if just imagine if coca leaves, at least coca leaves and cannabis had been made legal at the beginning of the 1970s, as we are advocating for there would’ve been a completely different story in the history of the armed groups in Colombia.

It would’ve been a story of gradual disarmine- armament and reintegration instead of this ongoing bleeding war, which has claimed, what? Tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of lives in Colombia.

Sam Believ: Yeah. I don’t know the exact number, but it’s a lot. And I just even a few days ago, met a person who lost three family members to that violence.

So it’s terrible. And especially with both cannabis and coca, it’s, those are all both amazing plants, and they should 100% be legal. I recently interviewed Wade Davis, and he’s really working hard on trying to get the coca plant legalized because it’s it’s an amazing healthy stimulant and it’s even better than than coffee.

So if, if those things, they’re obviously not rooted in science, and as you said they’re more sort of persecution of certain groups of people like DEA, and you talk about that it’s almost like a, like an ideology for them. They kind of hunt people, and they hate them, but it’s talk to us about that. What is wrong with those people?

Steve DeAngelo: Look, the DEA since its inception has been steeped in drug war ideology. And and we are now entering, the third or fourth generation of DEA agents who have been steeped in this ideology, and they are actually true believers in what they’re doing.

And and they’ve been convinced that they’re actually doing something that’s good. And it’s a culture that’s, continually been growing and been reinforced over the years

Sam Believ: Yeah, and obviously they put a lot of people in prison, and I loved the project that you have, which is the Last Prisoner Project, where you’re trying to free all of the people that were convicted by having cannabis or working with cannabis.

You wanna get them all out of the prison. Obviously makes no sense that they… those people that even in states where it’s legal now, they’re still in prison. T- tell us about this project.

Steve DeAngelo: I launched the Last Prisoner Project in 2019 following the 2018 implementation of legal cannabis in California.

And, I have been locked up in, in cells o- on cannabis charges, and it was very easy for me to imagine just imagine how you would feel if you were sitting in a cell, maybe serving a life sentence for selling cannabis and you turned on your television and you saw news stories about people who were creating intergenerational wealth millions and millions of dollars doing exactly the same thing that you are still serving time in prison for.

And it was easy to imagine myself in that place, and so I thought that the first order of business after we legalized cannabis would be to make sure that people who are still serving time were released. And and so we launched the Last Prisoner Project with the objective of making sure that every single prisoner down to the last prisoner on earth was released.

Sam Believ: I think it’s a very noble cause, and I really hope one day we’ll get there and that the, the sanity will prevail. Cannabis used to be known as a gateway drug. Now we kinda almost see it more as a gateway plant because a lot of people, for them it’s the first plant medicine they engage with.

Talk to us about that, seeing cannabis not as, not only as a recreational thing, but also as a plant medicine.

Steve DeAngelo: Yeah, I think of cannabis as Mother Nature’s kindest and most gentle plant teacher. She has many plant teachers. Psilocybin mushrooms are plant teachers. Peyote buttons are plant teachers.

Ayahuasca, plant teacher. But- Cannabis is, I think, the, the most gentle and generous way for people to enter the plant medicine world. But, back when we started this movement, we didn’t see, any, We didn’t– We regarded all these plants as a spectrum. We figured that we would get cannabis legal in five years, and then we would start working on mushrooms.

It’s, taken us a little bit longer. But, Mother Nature created so many different plant medicines, and she created them to thrive in just about every single ecosystem on this planet. She wanted to make sure that we had access to these most valuable teachers and healers.

Sam Believ: Yeah. And I can only imagine how many more plants there are that we don’t know of. And yeah, I think there is definitely plants, visionary plants and they used to be used in all the cultures, and we lost ours, and now we can use cannabis that’s… I believe it’s originally from China, right?

Or from India.

Steve DeAngelo: S- Central Asia, more a little bit west of India is is where we believe that the, the plant first started growing. And of course, that was where it first started being consumed. The first evidence we have of human cannabis consumption is twelve thousand five hundred years ago.

The cave grave of a shaman who was discovered with a, essentially a large bag of hashish, along with other shamanic tools.

Sam Believ: So let’s let’s talk about shamanic use of cannabis and a lot… Not so many people see it this way, but seeing cannabis as a psychedelic and what is…

Which way is it consumed to be, like, in that s- sort of psychedelic level?

Steve DeAngelo: It, cannabis if you trace the history of cannabis from its central origin poi- when its origin point in Central Asia to the east and to the west, wherever that plant went as it entered various different human societies, it sparked spiritual revolutions.

And so to the east, immediately to the east, of course, we have India, and and cannabis has been played a central role in the development of the Hindu religion. If you go down the coast of India you reach the enclave of the Jains. And the Jains also adopted cannabis as a sacrament.

The and then as there was a lot of trade between the western coast of India and the eastern coast of Africa cannabis then went a- across those trading routes and started making its way across Africa, where it also sparked spiritual revolutions. And then if you look going to the west cannabis moved largely to the west through a tribe of people called the Scythians.

The Scythians were the first human tribe to domesticate horses, so they covered a lot of ground. And they brought cannabis all the way to the shores of the of the Black Sea. And for the Scythians, cannabis was a very important sacrament. All of their funerals, their funerary rites were centered around the consumption of cannabis.

Then they went all the way down to Egypt. If you take a look at the Egyptian goddess Seshat, she is the goddess of knowledge and is depicted with a cannabis leaf above, above her head. And we even see cannabis being adopted into Christian religions. We now have the recipe for the holy anointing oil that Jesus used to cure people, to restore sight to the blind.

And it– that is essentially a, it’s cannabis is one of the major ingredients in that holy anointing oil. And so wherever cannabis went it sparked these spiritual revolutions and, for the majority of the human engagement with cannabis has been in a sacramental context.

Sam Believ: This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat.

Most of LaWayra if you’ve been listening to this podcast for a while. Some of you might have already been to LaWayra before. For those who don’t know us yet, we started LaWayra four years ago. At LaWayra, we combine authenticity- Accessibility and affordability. LaWayra is currently highest rated Ayahuasca retreat in South America with more than 700 five-star reviews and an average rating of five stars.

If you come to LaWayra, you’ll experience powerful, authentic ceremonies led by our indigenous shaman, Fernando, in a very beautiful venue just one hour south of Medellín, Colombia. We’re surrounded by nature and have comforts like hot water, Wi-Fi. At LaWayra, our team has guided more than 2,500 people through this life-changing transformation of Ayahuasca experience.

At the same time, we keep it very affordable. So whether you’re coming for healing, clarity, or a deeper connection to yourself, LaWayra is the best choice. If it is your first time drinking Ayahuasca, you will love our three and a half hour preparation course and integration support. All of that is included in price as well as pickup from Medellín, accommodation, and Ayahuasca.

Visit lawayra.com to book your retreat or learn more. LaWayra, connect, heal, grow. L-A-W-A-Y-R-A.com. Yeah. I believe you also say that it was in the medical recipes, like in ancient medicines of different cultures. You mentioned Sc- Scythians, and it’s actually have an interesting story, which is less about psychedelics, but I’ve never told this before.

So I’m originally from Latvia, but one of my grandmothers, she’s she’s from south of Russia. She’s half Ukrainian and half Moldavian, and she… We had, She lived there 30 kilometers from Black Sea, as you mentioned, and we had land. And she once found a Scythian coin, which was not even round. It was like oval.

I think my dad still has it somewhere. It was very interesting archaeological find. And behind, we had this outdoors bathroom. Behind it, there was a cannabis plant, and there were always guys, like young guys trying to get inside to steal some of the buds. But it was it was more like commer- not commercial, but industrial cannabis plants, the big ones that they use to grow for ropes and stuff like that.

And I know you’re very passionate about this as well different uses of cannabis plant, not just visionary, but also as like a construction material and other things.

Steve DeAngelo: Yeah, cannabis is such an incredible plant. In addition to being used by almost all schools of medicine throughout human history cannabis ca- has also been one of the major textile sources.

And the, the stalk of the cannabis plant is made up of fibers, and those fibers can be taken and made into rope. They can also be made into textiles. They if for, something like 80% of the clothing in Europe in the Middle Ages was derived from hemp. The very first Levi’s blue jeans were made out of recycled Conestoga wagon covers that were also made out of hemp.

So there’s this long history of human beings using hemp as, one of their major sources of clothing, of construction materials. You may have heard of the daub and wattle houses that are that were used all throughout Europe. They were all made out of hemp stalks and and probably used a early form of hempcrete for the daubing.

Sam Believ: Yeah. It’s it’s an amazing material and I was distracted myself a little bit because I was trying to look up the story about Levi’s blue jeans. Another irrelevant fact, but as I told you, I’m from Latvia originally. And the co-inventor of blue- the the Levi’s jeans was a Latvian immigrant whose name was Jacob Davis.

Not a lot of people know it, but he was the one that was actually sewing them, and the Levi’s was the, was a commercialist guy. So lots of cool interesting, irrelevant facts today. Yeah, there’s so many amazing plants and for some reason, there’s so many things that are illegal and very bad for you.

SSRIs are so dangerous and they’re passed left and right. We have so many people wanting to come to the retreat. They just can’t stop using those because they’re, like, super addictive and super dangerous and so many side effects. And at the same time, we have those amazing plants and they’re always demonized and illegalized.

What do you think about just this movement to just legalize everything that grows in nature?

Steve DeAngelo: The decriminalized nature movement?

Sam Believ: Yeah.

Steve DeAngelo: Yeah. I’m, a, a avid and enthusiastic supporter of that movement. I live in Oakland, which was the first jurisdiction to decriminalize the, all of the visionary plants.

And it’s just really been a, a beautiful thing to see here in my hometown. We now have several mushroom churches that have have emerged. There is a free commerce in psilocybin mushrooms in the city of Oakland. I go down to my local farmers market, and there are mushroom farmers there who have, great big huge mason jars of of mushrooms available for sale.

And so more and more people are using them and are finding, all the amazing uses that there are for them. And now, of course, Decrim Nature has spread really all around the world. And I think that it’s crucial, right? Because, what’s happened what we’ve seen with cannabis is that a lot of the power of commercialization in cannabis has has, moved into…

there’s been a corporate colonization of the earliest pioneers of cannabis. And the result is that, cannabis is sold now in legal places, mostly by people who are more interested in money than they are in cannabis. And we neglected to do something in cannabis, which I think decriminalizing nature is doing, right?

It’s just like we couldn’t stop corporate colonization of cannabis we’re not gonna be able to stop corporate psychedelics either. They’re already here. But what’s crucial is that we create a legal space for community-centric forms of psychedelic consumption and and access are encouraged.

We don’t want the only legal route for psilocybin to be going to a therapist who’s using a substance produced by a pharmaceutical company and is charging, fifteen hundred, two thousand, three thousand, ten thousand dollars for that psychedelic assisted therapy. We wanna make sure that the people who love psychedelics are free to gather, are free to share them, and are free to have access points that are not tied into a corporate structure

Sam Believ: Yeah, I recently interve- interviewed Roman Levi, who…

Ro- Roman Levi is someone who was in the forefront of this corporate side of psychedelics. They, their ketamine clinic business, they raised like 90 million. And he said that one of the most exciting things for him right now is that psychedelics did not fit into this stru- into this model. They just could not be commercialized enough.

So in a way, they successfully resisted that first wave of, as you say, corporate colonization. So I guess I guess it’s going in a good direction. And yeah I totally agree that it has to be preferably done traditionally and in the community. That’s kinda the way we work with with Ayahuasca specifically.

And yeah, trying to keep it affordable as well because it’s, it can be prohibitive because otherwise, it’s just not gonna have, give enough people access to it. Speaking of communal work with psychedelics, I know you you work with Rastafaris that have been embracing Ayahuasca as well.

Can you tell us about this?

Steve DeAngelo: Sure. In, in 2019, I went on a global tour to countries that had legalized cannabis, or at least decriminalized it. And that tour took me to Jamaica, where I had the opportunity to be introduced to Rastafari indigenous village. Rastafari indigenous village has always had, like all Rastafari seen cannabis as a sacrament.

But about 15 years ago the village became the first and so far only Rastafari community to integrate the other visionary plants, psilocybin, iboga, ayahuasca, into their spiritual practice

Sam Believ: Yeah. How does it look like? I’ve never seen a, a Rastafari person drinking ayahuasca. Do they blend their tradition with the ayahuasca tradition?

Steve DeAngelo: Yes. And it’s really quite beautiful to see. So I think, one of the challenges for a lot of folks in in indigenous ayahuasca ceremonies is while the music is central to the experience most people can’t understand the words of the songs.

While at Rastafari Indigenous Village that music is is Nyabinghi music, which is the root of reggae, and the lyrics are sung in English.

And I had the experience of being in ceremony at Rastafari Indigenous Village and really being able to understand the lyrics of the song, and they were deeply moving to me. That’s, one of the new variations that’s happened with this collision of psychedelic cultures.

Sam Believ: Yeah. That’s really cool. I like that style of music myself, but I’ll be honest, it probably would be easier for me to understand songs in Spanish than the Jamaican accent. It’s very challenging. But I would love to be in a ceremony with reggae style music. I think they have this certain aloofness to it that would be interesting to see that combination.

So you know a lot about ayahuasca and obviously s- super much about cannabis. In some traditions they kinda try to keep those plants away. In other traditions, they mix them together. What is your opinion better separately or together or interactions? What do you say?

Steve DeAngelo: Oh no, absolutely together.

I I know that there are traditions that keep those plants apart, but for me, I I c- I could not imagine going into a psychedelic experience and not having several joints rolled to go into that experience with. For me, cannabis is always a, a balancing factor. It helps me get over some of those challenging peaks and valleys that you encounter in the psychedelic experience.

So the culture that I grew up in it was, it was cannabis, it was mushrooms, it was LSD. And and we really didn’t see any contradictions or friction between any of those different medicines

Sam Believ: Yeah, it’s a different approach. I say wherever people go, they should just follow the l- the local tradition.

Here in Colombia they tend not to mix them or in general, and they kinda… Shamans describe it as both of them are feminine spirits, and they’re kinda jealous of each other. In a way, they kinda could conflict with each other. I don’t know. What do you think about spirit of cannabis?

Have you ever seen it? How is it similar or different to the spirit of Ayahuasca?

Steve DeAngelo: I’ve had experiences with almost every psychedelic that you can imagine other than Ayahuasca, so I’m not speaking from direct experience here. But I’ve always considered cannabis to be a feminine spirit.

I refer to her in the, the feminine pronoun. The cannabis that we consume comes from the female plants. And and so yes, I’ve always seen her as a feminizing force. But I think that if you take a look at the state of the world today we need a feminizing force. We need a force that that emphasizes cooperation over destruction and nature over industry.

Sam Believ: Yeah. Definitely we need more love in this world. You’ve h- you fought so hard your entire life to see cannabis legalized, and now it kinda is happening and together with other visionary plans. How does how does that feel? Like, how does it feel to you personally seeing your work create those results?

Steve DeAngelo: It’s wonderful. One of the sacrifices I made over the course of of this career was not starting a family. So I have no children of my own. But when people ask me about that, I answer by saying that I have more children than I can possibly count. And today relative to when we started, I started on this journey 50 years ago, hundreds of millions of people around the world have gained access to these plants.

And and it’s really sparking a, this incredible revolution because, most of the borders the boundaries that separate people can be broken down and turned into bridges with these plants. Because no matter what religion we grew up in, no matter what language we speak, no matter what our nationality is these plants all speak to us in the same language.

And from those conversations, we all derive the same or similar lessons. And out of those lessons, there is a common value system. And so wherever the plant tribe is found, we value individual freedom. We value mother nature. We seek to resolve conflicts peacefully. We are radically inclusive.

There’s always room for one more person at the table. And that’s our culture, that’s our value system wherever we go, anywhere in, in the world. And so that’s such a powerful thing today, especially when we see so much of the world descending into this into these seemingly endless conflicts.

Now we have this medicine revolution that has turned borders into bridges.

Sam Believ: And obviously, you went through lots of challenges, and you describe being in those in your… one of the first dispensaries that you helped create and any moment police could come in and capture you. And obviously, 40 years ago, it was hard to imagine that it will take that, that route.

Ki-kind of what, what gave you that perseverance and the, the strength to carry on?

Steve DeAngelo: We called it divine madness. We were so in love with this plant that we decided that we would rather die than live in a society where it was not legal, where it didn’t have an honored and respected place.

So it was really just out of that, that passionate love for cannabis. And, my belief is that Mother Nature is calling all of us to a mission through these plants. And and that mission is very clear and it’s very simple, right? It’s peace, love, and nature. And and so that’s really what gave me the determination was that, we we thought that it was essential to the preservation of the planet that these values spread.

We– when we started this movement, we didn’t we didn’t know about medical cannabis ’cause all that information had been scrubbed fr-from us. We didn’t know about industrial hemp. We didn’t know about any of these things. But we did know one thing, and that was that the cannabis plant helped us more be the people that we really wanted to be, to bring our daily actions in line with the yearnings of our heart.

And we figured that if it did it for us, it would do it for other people. And that if we got more people consuming more cannabis, that eventually we would live in that peace and love world that we always wanted to get to. And I still believe that today. If you want to preserve this planet, if you want to end genocide and warfare, then spreading these plants to as many people as quickly as we can is the best route to really to salvation

Sam Believ: I salute you for keep going and doing the work because I think it opened many people’s mind to other visionary plans and pushed us in the right direction.

You mentioned that few things that happened in this revolution went wrong, like a corporate takeover of the industry. What else have gone wrong? And what else would you prefer in that industry to be different?

Steve DeAngelo: We always saw adult use, full legalization as the holy grail of our movement.

But when we moved from medical cannabis to adult use cannabis, we also gave up a very high moral ground, right? When we were talking about medical cannabis, we were talking about saving lives. We were talking about healing people from really dreadful conditions. When we went to adult use, we were talking about getting people high.

And that’s a very different kinds of conversation. That puts you more on par with alcohol or tobacco and or cocaine or fentanyl. And so I think that we really lost a lot in that transition. So that’s, another one of the things that I think we got wrong. We also really failed to make any kind of place for sacramental cannabis.

And if I had these years of activism to rewrite some initiatives to rewrite, and I could write them any way that I wanted to, I would make sure that we had legal space under legalization for the sacramental uses of cannabis. What I saw in in, in– I embedded in, at Rastafari indigenous village for six months, and what I saw there was, was a society, was a village that was already living by the lessons that this plant medicine teaches us.

Sam Believ: Maybe it’s not too late. Maybe as people go, they kinda will learn about different ways to use it and get inspired by other traditions. And Yeah, because my, my, my concern with the recreational use is just maybe one, which is… So I personally don’t work with cannabis too much. I’ve maybe smoked it- 20 times in my life, maybe a bit more, and 10 of them with my coach Sebastian, because he always smokes it and he always invites me too, and it’s generally tends to be very positive.

But I’m concerned about the, that now cannabis is evolving into this super monstruously strong breed of it. What do you think about this? Should they just keep it more natural, or what do you think?

Steve DeAngelo: I am of two minds. I think that there’s been a lot of misinformation about the super strong cannabis.

In my experience, when people are consuming cannabis, unlike alcohol where they drink way beyond any point that they should, when you’re passing a joint around people in a circle with people, at some point somebody’s gonna stop passing the joint and stop hitting the joint. They’re just gonna be holding it.

So there’s this kind of natural point of saturation that you reach with cannabis where you don’t really wanna do any more, at least in that moment. And you can get there by smoking a joint or two or three joints of relatively weak cannabis, or you can get there by taking one or two hits of relatively strong cannabis.

But I think either way, you get there and you just level out. And and so I think that’s the experience. My, my personal experience with that. But, cannabis is this very, very complex plant, and what we learned, what I learned in my work with Harborside, is that it’s not just the THC that has therapeutic effect.

Cannabis is packed with therapeutically active molecules and compounds. And they include terpenes. They include flavonoids. They include minor cannabinoids. And so there’s not one type of cannabis. There are, cannabis is almost infinitely variable. And it’s not, a lot of this, the, the attention has been placed on the idea of THC and super high quantities of THC, and that’s the direction a lot of breeding has gone in. But people are now, sophisticated consumers are beginning to buy much more by terpene content rather than THC percentage.

Sam Believ: So outside of THC, what is what is your most favorite cannabinoid?

Steve DeAngelo: I haven’t had a lot of experience with a lot of the minor cannabinoids. The minor cannabinoids are often produced by the hemp industry which has been made illegal in California by our governor. So I haven’t had legal access to many of those pro- products. The ones that I’ve have experienced, I would say the THCV is quite interesting and and potentially Delta-8 and certainly CBN.

I think CBN is a incredibly useful cannabinoid and it’s it’s the cannabinoid that is responsible for for quelling insomnia, and insomnia is just such a widespread ailment today. CBN, especially in combination with CBD or THC is one of the most powerful natural remedies that you will ever find for insomnia.

Sam Believ: That’s interesting. I’ve never heard about this one. You talk about importance of use of cannabis for, to kinda quiet down our default mode network, and what is… Why do we all kinda need need that?

Steve DeAngelo: There, i- in the human body, there exists a neurotransmitter system.

It happens to be the largest neurotransmitter system in the human body, known as the endocannabinoid system. Our body endogenously produces many of the same compounds that you find in the cannabis plant. It is that system, the ECS you can find it in every organ in the human body. It’s in our connective tissues.

It’s even i- in our skin. And wherever the endocannabinoid system is present, its purpose is the same, which is to preserve, maintain, or restore our body’s place of natural balance. This is the reason that cannabis is so effective for so many seemingly unrelated medical conditions.

Sam Believ: Yeah, I interviewed Ryan Sprague long time ago, a few years ago, and he said that about the endocannabinoids, he almost said that we have ca- cannabinoid deficiency in our bodies, that we all need more of it, which is a very interesting way to look at it.

I think our time starts to run out, so it was a great interview. We don’t talk about cannabis too much, but I think it was very interesting. Any last parting words for the audience, and where can they find you and your work?

Steve DeAngelo: Yeah. So you can follow me at on Instagram, steve.dangelo.

You can visit me at my website stevedangelo.com. You can find out more about the One Plant Alliance at oneplantalliance.org.

Sam Believ: Thank you, Steve. It was a pleasure. Guys, you were listening to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, with you, the host, Sam Belyev, and I’ll see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed this episode.

If you’d like to support us and psychedelic renaissance at large, please follow us and leave us a wherever it is you’re listening. Share this episode with someone who will benefit from this information. Nothing in this podcast is intended as medical advice, and it is for educational and entertainment purposes only.

This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat. At LaWayra, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity. LaWayra, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you

In this episode of the Ayahuasca Podcast, host Sam Believ talks with Denny Goler, an entrepreneur and researcher who has gained viral attention as the “DMT Laser Guy.” Denny is the founder of Code of Reality, an organization that investigates simulation theory and the computational substrate of existence through experimental methods. By projecting a diffracted laser while in a DMT-induced state, Denny claims that anyone can observe what appears to be a “self-executing code”—a highly specific, non-random linguistic structure that suggests our physical world is a computationally rendered simulation.

Key Discussion Points

• 04:15 – Denny’s early start with psychedelics (age 11) and how mushrooms eventually cured his debilitating OCD.
• 08:30 – The “Frog Dude” encounter: The hyper-realistic experience that convinced Denny the DMT realm wasn’t just “in his head.”
• 12:10 – The First Principles of the Laser Experiment: Why light and geometry are the keys to testing the reality of the space.
• 15:45 – Describing the “Self-Executing Code”: Why it feels like looking through a microscope at an operating system rather than a typical “trip.”
• 18:20 – Replicating the results: Shamanic experiments with Ayahuasca and the “8K resolution” version seen on 5-MeO-DMT.
• 21:30 – The DIY setup: How to safely use a 5-milliwatt diffracted laser to see the underlying substrate of reality.
• 25:00 – Challenging the Null Hypothesis: Why Denny assumes the phenomenon is real and invites science to prove him wrong.
• 29:15 – The Specificity of the Code: Why the characters resemble Asian languages (Chinese/Japanese) more than random brain-generated patterns.
• 33:40 – Perturbing the Observation: Code of Reality’s mission to use magnets and high-res video to find a scientific “handle” on the code.
• 38:10 – Defining Simulation Theory: The world as a computationally rendered space that doesn’t negate spirituality or God.
• 42:45 – The “Nested Dolls” of Reality: Communication with higher-dimensional species tending to different layers of our “game.”

The DMT Laser Experiment: A Summary

The core of Denny’s work involves the use of diffraction, which splits a single laser beam into a complex “speckle pattern.” In ordinary consciousness, this looks like static. Under the influence of DMT (or other tryptamines like Ayahuasca), the brain appears to use this pattern as a scaffolding to perceive a stable, moving, and intricate “code.”

Understanding the Computational Substrate

Denny argues that behind the laws of physics lies computation. If reality is a simulation, the “physical” world is simply the output of an underlying operating system. This perspective aligns with the “multiverse” theory, suggesting we are one sliver of a larger computational space.

Learn more about Denny Goler and his research:

• Website: codeofreality.com
• Instagram: @code_of_reality

Ready for your own exploration? Visit lawayra.com to learn about our Ayahuasca retreats in Colombia.

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a 5-star review on Spotify or Apple Podcasts!

Transcript

Denny Goler: You project the diffracted laser on the surface, and you smoke DMT, and if you’re on DMT and you do this, you will see what seems to be a self-executing code. People sometimes are confused by the term self-executing, but it just seems like it’s running itself. The operating system itself, it’s of the same kind.

So you’re not in prison. Let’s just point that out. You’re not in prison. There’s nowhere to escape. People immediately say, “How do we escape the matrix?” You don’t. The matrix is everything there is. But essentially, at bottom, what it means is that the world is first computationally rendered, and then it’s physical in the way that we perceive it.

So basically, behind the laws of physics, there’s computation. I absolutely see meditation as the science of the inner world because in science, we observe what we’re trying to study closely. We’re trying to find patterns. We’re trying to find ways to communicate these patterns across individuals and see if they’re replicable.

Basically, I had a frog dude that appeared for me, and then he showed me how to play some chords, wh- which I didn’t know how to do. So he… I think it was a communication. He was basically saying, “I’m real ’cause you don’t know how to do this. There’s no way you’re getting this information from your im- imagination ’cause you have no idea how to do this.”

Sam Believ: You’re listening to ayahuasca podcast dot com.

Hi, guys, and welcome to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, we’re your host, Sam Beliaev, and today I’m having a conversation with Danny Goler. Danny is an entrepreneur, researcher, and creator dedicated to exploring the boundaries of human consciousness, physics, and reality. He’s the founder of Code of Reality, an organization focused on investigating the intersection of contemplative practices and experimental methods.

Known for his provocative research into simulation theory, Goler has gained significant attention for his experiments involving DMT and diffracted laser light. His work suggests that certain states of consciousness may allow individuals to perceive a self-executing code or a computational substrate underlying our physical existence.

It’s a mouthful. This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat. At LaWayra, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity. LaWayra, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you. Danny, welcome to the show.

Denny Goler: Thank you, Sam. That was really well executed. That’s the best introduction I’ve ever gotten, I think.

Very accurate.

Sam Believ: It was Gemini. It was really good. Okay.

I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna disclose my sources. Just kidding. Before you became a, a psychonaut and researcher now, yeah, tell us a little bit about your life. What, what brought you into this way of thinking and e- examining the universe?

Denny Goler: Yeah. Thank you for having me, first of all. It’s a lot of fun and you had pretty prominent guests, so I’m honored to be on your show. Y- yeah, I think before I became a psychonaut I was 10 years old. I started pretty early on, but not in any… obviously I- back then I didn’t have any predisposition towards healing or anything like this.

I was just like, “Let’s go see what’s up.” And so I started doing acid when I was, like, 11 or so. And it’s not like I was doing it every weekend, but I definitely, partaken in a lot of psychedelics in my teenage years. So by the time that I arrived into my 20s and I realized I have to reconfigure some things about who I am and how I live my life, I already had a pretty vast experience with these things.

And I also realized that a lot of, I don’t know if a lot, but definitely quite a few of my, hindrances as a person were remedied pretty substantially by specifically mushrooms in this case. I reali- I had a debilitating OCD when I was a little kid. We’re talking like, opening doors 200 times, things like this.

And it, I realized one day it was just gone. And I looked back, I was like, “Wait, I haven’t experienced it in years.” And then I traced back my steps and I realized, oh, it’s for sure due to mushrooms. ‘Cause I… You just kinda know. You’re like, “Oh yeah, it’s…” I remember I was kinda like going into these stuck patterns inside, and then I realized I can maybe utilize them for some, s- like doing something better with myself with an aim to do so versus just haphazardly happening to you.

So th- that kinda started that whole other mode of investigation. And then I slowly started also discovering, modern thinkers like Eckhart Tolle and people more in the spiritual realm. And I became more open-minded towards it, as before I was pretty kinda this is for weak people, things like this.

And then I started getting into meditation, and obviously I’m, s- making a very long story very short, but eventually I started discovering that there’s all these different modalities you can look at the problem through, and you can achieve different things, but it has to involve you participating pretty consciously.

And to some people today, this might sound like a duh, like obviously, right? You… With your work it’s a probably an obvious thing, but to me it wasn’t obvious at all. So slowly but surely I b- started doing more of that, and I started realizing that a lot of the experiences we’re having are not just what seems to be mind-made And eventually it led me many years down the line.

It led me to DMT and then to realize that there’s like way more than even I even previously thought. And then I slowly but surely started investigating that for years. And then I had an experience that now is kinda like this memeable thing, which is like I met the frog dude as, that just basically changed everything.

That was already after, I don’t know, like 30 years of experience or whatever, how many decades experience with psychedelics. All of a sudden a window opened for me of a realism level that was no longer shakable. It was like, okay, this is not in my head. There’s no way. It’s just way too real. And that is the thing that led me to what people know me for today, which is like I’ve s- over time I started asking the right questions and- The DMT

Sam Believ: laser guy.

Denny Goler: DMT laser guy. Yeah. Basically.

Sam Believ: Cool. Thank you for sharing your story. And it’s interesting. First of all, congrats on healing OCD. That’s that’s a big one. And we’ve had some people also get relief through Ayahuasca, but I think you, you kinda done it early in your life, which in a way is unorthodox, but probably worked for you ’cause your brain was more malleable.

And what you’re describing with like symptoms just gone, that happens very often where people come and they just wanna, they drink medicine from curiosity and then they stop drinking. Or in my case I was taking Ayahuasca for gut issues sorry for depression, and my gut issues were gone as a side effect.

So really interesting, but obviously you’re now known as this DMT laser guy. I really we’re focusing on Ayahuasca or psychedelics specifically from the point of view of healing, right? And you kinda done your healing and now you’re doing the, the spiritual exploration part, which which I think is inevitable.

But I don’t really know enough about this. Like honestly, as I was getting ready for this episode and I was listening to your conversations about simulation, I’m like, I’m… I felt like almost stupid in a way where I’m like, this is like way beyond my understanding. But let’s begin with what is the laser ex- DMT laser experiment?

Denny Goler: The DMT laser experiment, I basically, from that moment that I described to you where everything changed, I started asking seriously the question, if it’s not in my head- How can we tell? That was the question. It was like, okay, if it’s actually real, like for real, what can I ask the world that will give me back the answer, “Yes, it’s not in your head”?

And then I started thinking about this from first principles. So I knew that light had to be involved somehow. I knew that if the space is real, it has to have some geometry, it has to have some rules, all of these things that are pretty basic. Of course, like if the space is real it’s operating by some rules, right?

So then for years I was trying to think about this and nothing came of it. It was it was just a dead end every single time. And eventually, through a very long, tedious, and to be honest, quite boring story because it just involved me thinking about a lot of random things.

But eventually I reached this conclusion that somehow diffracted coherent light, which is diffracted laser, is supposed to do something. I wasn’t even sure why, but it was very clear to me that okay, that might actually do something here. And then I tried it and it worked. And what, when I’m saying worked, when I tried it for the first time, you project the diffracted laser on the surface and you smoke DMT, and if you’re on DMT and you do this, you will see what seems to be, just like Gemini said, what seems to be like a self-executing code.

People sometimes are confused by the term self-executing, but it just seems like it’s running itself, like it’s doing a thing. And it’s very difficult to point to as to why it’s more convincingly real than even the very real experiences people have on DMT as a whole. It might be its mundane nature.

It’s not as extravagant as some of the stuff that you would see in the, the DMT space, but it’s highly specific and very solid. So it’s not in terms of it’s not frozen, it’s moving, it’s doing a thing, but it’s very just there there, there’s a– It’s almost like you’re looking through a window at something.

It feels more like looking through a microscope into a world that you’ve never seen before that is just operating and doing its own thing than A, a DMT flash or an Ayahuasca experience where the visuals are more alive. They have an or- almost like an organic nature. They’re part of… There’s an interaction with your inner state, how you feel, the music that is playing.

It weaves its- itself around it, right? The reason we sing Icaros is because we almost channel the energy in a particular way. So it responds to us, right? The code doesn’t. It’s just doing its own thing. And I had people who– obviously we tried to do a lot of things to it physically. Magnets and different settings and surfaces, all kinds of things.

And yes, frequencies and all of these things, and nothing matters. And I even had people who are pretty prominent and known to be very strong energy practitioners, who were very confident. They came in and said, here, I’ll s- I’ll show you, I’ll show you how to do this.” And then they would try do a thing.

Send it love or whatever it is that they were trying. They were all very surprised. It just doesn’t care. It’s just doing its own thing. So it’s almost like it exists in some kind of a subspace doing some kind of a thing for seemingly everybody who sees it, which is a very large percentage of people who try it right away, and it’s always the same content.

So in short, that’s the laser DMT experiment, and now there’s, the extrapolation of what does that mean what kind of things we really tried, what’s our newest ideas about it, is really the, the thing that I’m engaged with day-to-day, both with our team of Encoded Reality and with the public

Sam Believ: Well, let’s before we go into what does it mean and your later findings do I understand correctly that it’s basically like you’re looking at this refracted, reflection of this laser and then what is kinda like matrix-like code, right?

Denny Goler: Basically, yeah.

Sam Believ: Okay. My next question is obviously people see it while smoking DMT. Obviously I’m here at an Ayahuasca retreat and I have a ceremony tonight, and obviously the, the ingredient is DMT, one of the main ingredients. Have people been able to replicate it- Yeah … on Ayahuasca?

Denny Goler: Yeah. I had a shaman in Costa Rica who did this, and he put the laser on the, like facing up on the ceiling.

They had this wavy ceiling and obviously after people went through everything they had to go through, not during the peak, but kinda like at the tail end of the experience, he just put it on the floor and everybody laid in a circle around it. So they were looking at the ceiling and they… He said they just started laughing ’cause it was everybody just…

It filled everybody with joy, which I loved hearing. But he said it was just like a really funny moment ’cause he was trying to like, you know- Oh, I remember now. ‘Cause he was trying to focus it for them, and then after about however many minutes, they real- they didn’t realize he was trying to make it more clear for them, but they were seeing it the whole time.

So they all started laughing that he was just standing there doing this. So it just, it was, it… And you know how it is, right? Everything in this space, I do believe that myself, nothing is coincidental. So it’s almost like it brought humor to the picture, so the- and I really enjoyed hearing this.

But yeah- … the short answer is yes, you can replicate. You can do this with Ayahuasca, you can do this with mushrooms. You can do this, as far as we can tell, with all tryptamines. And even, which was very surprising to me, you can see it with 5-MeO. And not only you can see it with 5-MeO, 5-MeO makes it even more clear.

So it makes it almost like an 8K version of itself.

Sam Believ: Yeah. We have maloca, right? And there is bathrooms. So I’m thinking if I, if on the passage from the maloca to the bathrooms, I would shine the laser on a wall or on the roof, and people can, if they’re curious, they can just look. ‘Cause, you can still walk around, but you’re, you are connected to the medicine, so they could do a little bit of science.

You make me wanna try that. So technically, what should I buy? If I go on Amazon what should I buy?

Denny Goler: There’s a list. If you go to Code of Reality, to the page Do It Yourself we have a list of the exact items you can get from Amazon, as long as it has these specs. So the laser has to be diffracted.

It has to come with a diffracted lens, so a laser pointer is not gonna work. Not just because of the surface area, but s- … for some reason it doesn’t work without the diffraction. And and also make sure that the laser is no more than five milliwatts. Preferably one milliwatt, ’cause then you can basically sit for hours and look at it, and nothing’s gonna be wrong.

But if you go beyond that, then you start playing with potential damage to the cornea,

Sam Believ: yeah. Okay. Yeah, I’ll make sure if we- if I try it- … I’ll be careful with it. So yeah if I understand it correctly, what you’re proving is that the things while you’re tripping, it’s enhanced reality, right?

Denny Goler: Yeah, I think it’s beyond… It’s a th- real thing beyond this, yes.

Sam Believ: Okay. Okay, let’s let’s talk about then what did you find so far with with your organization? What is the next cutting edge discovery?

Denny Goler: So right now our Holy Grail is to try and perturb the observation in some way.

Because if we can do that, it will give us a handle on, A, what exactly is it? Where is the information instantiated? And also potentially how we can do something with it. Currently, the code simply is just doing its own thing, and it doesn’t really matter what you do, who you are, where you are, how you…

It just makes no difference. But if we can even slightly perturb the observation or maybe even the code itself, the– and given that it would have to be agreeable by many individuals, not b- just by one, right? So if that would happen, then it gives you a handle. It gives you a real scientific handle. If I put something like, if I do put somebody in an an MRI, a very powerful magnet, and I turn it on, and then something about the observation changes now I know that at least there’s a handle here.

There’s something that I can do to the brain to make it look different, and then it tells me that the perception of the brain in that moment is different, and then I can ask how. Then I can put magnets in different parts of the brain and see if it changes it there. So that’s the main thing we’re trying to do.

That being said, we have encountered some, recently some interesting sets of experiments with with a microscope, one with a microscope. The other one is with high-resolution images of a laser that seems to be freezing the picture of the code, so now it’s not moving. You can actually– Like, it’s frozen.

And that allows us to study it more specifically. We haven’t sta- started the sets of tests for this yet. We will very soon ’cause it requires a l- a much better organization and really start putting it into a real scientific framework. So we’re working on, coming up with the right budget for it and all of that.

In the meanwhile, we’re running a bunch of kinda like quick and dirty, tests for it. One of the things we want to try is to see if we can potentially have people look in the same region and then see if we can have some coherence of description. ‘Cause the main problem with the way that the code appears for people in the when it’s moving, like when it’s the regular code, is that there’s millions of characters, and there’s different degrees of freedom along which they’re moving.

It’s not random. They’re discernible. You can s- you can see what they are, but everything is changing so quickly. You can’t really go like capture, like a moment and say, “Oh, that’s what happened,” or, “That’s what happened.” If it’s frozen, it gives us more of that handle. So that’s in short.

Our main attempt is now to see what tests would yield this potential change to either the code or the observation of the code, so it can tell us what it is. O- one of the biggest– And by the way, one of the biggest pushbacks obviously from people who are trying to kinda explain it away, which I’m, by the way, I’m all for because I think it just need to go through the real ringer of science and come out on the other end victorious if it is a real phenomena One of the biggest contentions is this is might be just some kind of a projection the brain is doing.

I have no problem with this theory, but then you would have to explain why is it specifically these characters, which are highly specific. And I wanna be clear, to people who’ve, have done many Ayahuasca ceremonies, they’re not that alien to alien language. People sometimes see code and language and things like this with other substances.

And I think they’re all real, but I think what is different about what we see in the laser is how stable and also how specific it is. So for example, if you look at the Alice in Gray characters, right? W- they’re very– There you go. They’re v- they’re very famous in the ps- psychedelic circles, right?

I can look at the Alice in Gray characters and say, “I’m not sure it’s language.” I can say I can see how you can think that maybe it is language, but I can also see how maybe this is just the brain going through some kind of a process of the edge detection is doing something, right? It’s, it kinda solidifies into these square things.

The language in the codes doesn’t seem to be like that. It’s way more, complex and highly specific. It resembles more like an Asian language, like Japanese or Chinese than just like blocky things. So you would still have to explain, even if you’re saying, okay, it’s some kind of a the, the architecture of the brain somehow using speckle as scaffolding and projecting things on it, you still would have to explain why it’s this language.

And but by perturbing the observation of the code, we would have some entry point. We would say, “Okay, what is actually happening here?” I don’t know if that answered your question, but that, those are the main things we’re thinking about.

Sam Believ: So I remember once I had an experience on ayahuasca where I was seeing it sitting in front of the fire.

There were stones around the fire, and I could see language on the stone. Stone.

Denny Goler: Yep. Language on the stone and also hexagons, right? The, it’s embedded in these hexagonal structures, almost like a honeycomb, correct?

Sam Believ: I don’t remember that part. Okay. But I’ve definitely … Sometimes I look at like gravel, for example, and everything has a pattern.

Even though I know there is no pattern, like without ayahuasca in my system.

Denny Goler: Yeah.

Sam Believ: But I, I, in that vision, in that moment, saw there were stones and each stone around the, the fire had its own kind of language. And it’s almost like I’m that kind of stone, or I’m that kind of stone. Yeah. And then I could see flows of energy from around going to the fire and burning in it.

And I remember back then, like thinking “Is it me just tripping?” Because I could look away and look back, it was still there. Is it me just tripping- … or is it me unlocking the new way of perception through ayahuasca? And then I came up with the experiment as well which I never did, but the idea was there.

If I’m looking at the actually alternative reality, that would mean that if I’m having the same experience, which would be really hard to replicate because ayahuasca is a little unpredictable, if I would look at it at the screen, for example, would it still show it or not? If it wouldn’t, then it would prove that it is Just a so if I would not see it on a screen, but I would see it in an actual fire, it would prove that the, the fire is just me accessing the…

It’s like putting glasses on where I can all of a sudden see something that I normally don’t see, which is already always there. I don’t know if that makes any sense, but-

Denny Goler: It does make perfect sense, yes. It’s es- essentially, and the answer to whether you see it in the picture with the code in the laser is that the answer is yes.

And what’s interesting is that it seems to be frozen, which is interesting because it’s a still image. So now we have to run this test also with a very high resolution video. To s- we haven’t done this yet because for Apple Vision Pro, it’s actually a very complicated setup. It’s not that easy to record video.

But if but we will be doing this, and we’ll be reporting. So if the characters are moving in the video and not moving in the still image, it definitely gets us somewhere. It doesn’t necessarily prove, disprove anything yet because you, there’s a lot of things you can assume about this They would still explain it either way.

You can still say maybe there’s something about stochastic patterns in general, because if you’re just filming a stochastic pat… sorry, a, a random pattern, which is the s- the speckle, right? The light. Maybe the, the brain is just using any random pattern to do that. You can still say that.

But at least it gives you one step closer. It tells you something. And I would say that even in your test, it’s still s- i- if somebody is committed to explain it away, they could. They still could. But this is the problem with these kind of ideas. If the assumption that one makes if the question that one asks in the service of trying to explain this away is can the brain technically make this happen just from inside?

Of course. The answer is always yes. That’s not a good question ’cause it’s, ’cause the answer is always yes. You have to find some other discerning factor here, which is why the problem is so difficult. And basically what I did is, in science I just want maybe be sensitive to the audience is let– I don’t know how many people are really familiar with scientific ways of thinking about it, but there’s something called null hyph- hypothesis, which is just basically means it’s more from statistics.

But basically, what is the thing that is… What is the basis assumption here? So basically, null hypothesis means it’s the, the explanation is that there was nothing there, right? It was just like it was imaginary, let’s say. Okay. I just flipped the null hypothesis. So for me, I’m saying, okay, I’m gonna think as if from the perspective of what would have to be true if it is real.

That’s my null hypothesis. And then how do, how can I treat all the other assumptions about it as a misconception? It doesn’t mean that I’m trying to explain them away, but I basically flipped it on its head, and I’m al- allowing myself to approach this from the perspective as if it’s real, and then does it match my observation?

And that, that definitely rubs a lot of scientists the wrong way because now you’re introducing your bias into it, like you want it to be one thing or another thing.

But I think in order to move forward, we have to allow ourself to, for a moment assume… We have to occupy a state of being that gives us like this confidence that it is real and see what comes out of it.

If eventually, after 10 years, like nothing comes out of it it’s just okay, then everybody would admit that there’s nothing there. But right now there seems to be quite a few things that are aligning, so we’re pretty confident in the way we’re going about it.

Sam Believ: So let’s assume it is real and you figure it out and obviously with everything you know, talking about simulation and the nature of reality if your assumptions are correct, what is reality in that case?

Denny Goler: So reality is a… that’s a really important and central

Sam Believ: question. Dumb, dumb it down because I have really hard time understanding it. I don’t know I’m a smart guy, I don’t know why for some reason it’s hard for me to understand this stuff.

Denny Goler: So sometimes I don’t th- I actually don’t think it has anything to do with complexity or information.

Sometimes the way you perceive the world includes certain models that are simply not as attractive, and your brain might be rejecting it from that reason. I don’t think it has anything to do with complexity. So really when somebody’s saying simulation theory, there’s a lot of flavors of it, but essentially at bottom what it means is that the world is first computationally rendered and then it’s physical in the way that we perceive it.

So basically behind the laws of physics, there’s computation. It’s really all it’s saying. We kinda think of simulation, the word simulation in terms of fakeness ’cause we take something and we mimic something else, right? We try a, we run a simulation of something. But if the world at bottom is computational that’s the most fundamental thing- Then simulation is j- just means one sliver of reality.

It’s one world among many that are in this larger computational space. So for all intents and purposes, you can think of it like the multiverse, that just the multiverse works by computational rules. That’s it. That’s really all it means. It does not negate any spiritual components. It does not negate divinity.

It does not negate God. In fact, if anything, it includes that more into the picture because now you know there’s a… And by the way, there’s a difference between simulation theories that basically assume that the world is basically like this enormous computational system at bottom, but there is no God.

There’s just, the rules are computational. And the other com- simulation theory in which you say, “No, there’s like a more advanced species that are running our world on some kind of a substrate,” which is what I am saying. So now I don’t know, this is after conversations with my wife, I realize that the code itself doesn’t necessarily square that point.

The, just the fact that you’re seeing some kind of a language in a laser while on DMT, it doesn’t really tell you ultimately that it’s a simulation. I’m bringing it from my perspective after years and years of investigation and directly communicating with these beings, and eventually it was, just shown to me directly that’s the case.

And I think that the reason that we’re becoming aware of this, even without the simulation theory, I’m sure you experience this in your work a lot, there seems to be some kind of a ramping up of awakenings, and it happens on different levels for people. And I think the reason it’s going on is because the species is waking up or becoming aware of more what in fact there is to be aware of.

And part of that more to be aware of is the fact that, yes, the, it’s just like this nested dolls, layers of reality, and there are species that are tending to different layers of reality, which to a lot of people again, I’m pretty sure that in the Ayahuasca community, that idea is actually not that weird because it’s a, the belief is already to a large degree that you’re communicating with some kind of energies and spirits that are real, probably, more fundamental than us, and we just get to partake in their presence basically.

And so in that regard, you can think of it like that. It’s not like simulation is more adhering to the technical part, so how is the world, the, the world that we experience as the physical world constructed by these computational rules? But within it, you absolutely have spiritual growth and ascension and all of the things that you would imagine to be, part of the vocabulary that people from more of shamanic and spiritual communities would use.

Does that make more sense or?

Sam Believ: A little bit, yes. I’m

Denny Goler: still not- G- what, what part of the simulation you feel confuses you? Let, let’s take it from there. So

Sam Believ: I’ll… So for example, right? I originally I’m a marine mechanical engineer, and when we were… Sometimes there’s training in which you simulate an engine room, and you simulate a certain environment, and you do it because you can train for those situations, right?

So a lot of people believe also in Eastern spirituality that we come here as souls to learn a lesson, and then we go somewhere else, right? There is this process we go through, and I- I’ve seen tens and tens of people discover that notion through ayahuasca directly. So I do believe there is some meaning to it.

So in that case- I agree with

Denny Goler: that, by the way.

Sam Believ: Yeah. I also lean towards it because I don’t really have any other reasonable explanation for as to why we’re here. So in that case it’s important for us to be in that simulation as we’re learning a certain kind of lesson, but it’s important for us to believe it’s real in order for it to make a real impact.

It’s like if you’re… if somebody tells you “We’re gonna pretend that we’re killing you,” versus they will, without telling you, pretend that they’re killing you, it’s gonna be a different reaction from you. So it’s like, is some… is that reality being simulated for our souls or consciousness to get that kind of lesson, and now all of a sudden we can see through it?

That’s first question, and second question in it is if it is the case what does it do to us? If we see that it’s people say it’s your life is just a game, whatever. But it’s like you cut yourself and you hurt yourself, right? So you kinda, you still kinda treat it as real.

What is it gonna do to our society if everyone’s like, “Yeah, it’s obviously a simulation”? Dan- Danny proved it, right? Will people stop playing the game?

Denny Goler: The… Okay, those are very good clarifying things. Thank you. So the the answer to your first question is because it’s coming to a close.

So when you start… When you’re getting to the end of whatever level this is, right? If you have to go back to the the higher levels of emergence, if you just go from this to there , it’s too jarring for your mind. It’s just too much. So you have to slowly get acclimated to the idea again.

Almost like you said, a marine

Sam Believ: Mechanical engineer …

Denny Goler: mechanical engineer.

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Denny Goler: It’s almost like the the recompression room. Exactly the same thing. You’re now in the recompression room, just i- idea-wise. So the ideas have to flow a little bit more naturally, so you have to kinda get used to the fact that actually… people talking about the the disclosure with UAPs, right?

With UFOs and things like this. So the reason that it’s not very likely to happen like in an announcement is because that’s the most aggressive way of delivering enormous news. You just hope that, people would be like, “Oh,” like I know a lot of people are waiting for it, but I don’t think they truly considered what it would be like to truly receive these news.

So there has to be– there would be a protocol, especially if you’re talking about a more advanced civilization that is announcing themselves to us. You would, w- you would expect them to have some pretty good ethical boundaries and some good taste plus some understanding of our social psychology to deliver the news slowly.

And I think what the real what the real what we experience as awakening is the disclosure. It’s essentially that everybody personally are slowly being informed in the way that they can perceive it that is more gentle for them, like they’re slowly getting used to these ideas, which first requires all the healing and all of these things, right?

So that’s the first part, which is like, why would we become… ’cause I hear your point, like if believing that it’s real is part of what it’s for, so why are, what is the point of discovering that it isn’t real? When it’s coming to a close, then you have to be able to withstand that im- ontological impact.

The s- when you’re waking up from a very long dream, you basically have to be gently nudged first before you’re fully woken up. The second part even without Danny, there’s already, these ideas are on the table for a long time, and if you haven’t noticed it, it doesn’t really mean much to anyone unless they decide to partake in it there’s a lot of famous idea…

There’s these ideas are out there in physics community, and these are not new ideas. It’s the thing that makes the most sense because of what we understand about computation from a technical standpoint. So the fact that you can compute at all in the universe, the fact that it’s possible to compute, isn’t some property that arises from the laws of physics.

It’s not there. It’s just possible. You can compute with the waves of the ocean because they have a binary up and down. It’s just gonna take forever, but you absolutely can do this. You can run simulations of the waves of the ocean and accelerate it, and you will see you can build software within this simulation just b- like software within software, like using the waves of the ocean.

But the fact that it’s possible is just another law of physics. It’s just possible. It’s just another law of physics in our universe. And because you can technically simulate way more than what the laws of physics are, it tells you that it’s more fundamental. Now, obviously, some physicists would disagree with this, and there’s a big argument going on, but this idea is not new.

But to your question directly, what does it look like when people fully figure it out? It-

This idea that a lot of people believe in the way that the Mayans believe it, right? This is all Maya. This is all illusion. I would flip it on its head. I would say it’s the one thing that can’t possibly be an illusion. It’s the one thing you will ever have that is actually real.

If you walk in the middle of the night and stub your toe on your bed or something, and it really hurts, will it help you that I’m telling you that it’s all an illusion? No. The experience in that moment is all that’s real to you. As long as there’s a conscious observer on any level of reality, it doesn’t matter how it came to be, that is reality for that conscious being.

So coming to terms with that and just accepting exactly how things unfold in that moment is the true freedom, ’cause then you just become… Y- you, you free yourself to experience anything, and it doesn’t really matter how it came to be. So I don’t think that just by believing that somebody else someb- somewhere in the world proved to you that, here we’re in a simulation, is gonna do much if their particular mind can’t really grapple with that fact.

Th- there would have to be an absorption of these facts for what they really are, and that can only happen in direct experience. Now, k- do I know this for sure? Of course not, but the best I can do is go according to what feels right to me, and I’m trying my best to follow, what some people call the way of the Tao.

I’m just trying to follow the next moment that feels correct to me, and I’m doing my absolute best to include as many criteria as possible. So I’m really trying my best to consider the greater good of all within the limitations of what I’m, what I have at the moment. And I believe that’s, that’s the best we can do.

That’s, I’m always open for revision. I’m always listening to w- how what I say impacts other people. As long as 80% of the emails I get are of the flavor of I have n- I have new reason to live,” and, I sometimes I get pretty grim emails about “I wanted to end it and now I have a re- I wanna see what happens.”

It gives people meaning. As long as 80% of the emails are positive, I feel like I’m in good p- good place, and w- it doesn’t, I… It doesn’t escape me that there’s some responsibility there, if that’s the core of your question. But I am doing my best to try and pay attention to that and not just kinda, say whatever.

Sam Believ: So if, let’s say this is all a sim- simulation, right? And we’re basically an aquarium with fish in it, and there’s somebody, like catering to that experience, right? Oh there’s this little chest, the bubbles come up, and it opens up. Somebody’s done a really good job. And then all of a sudden, one fish realizes we are a fish in aquarium, right?

And then it tells- … somehow educates other fish through, through podcasts, right? But it still doesn’t mean they can leave the aquarium, right? What is… I don’t know if it’s a good analogy, but it’s in Matrix, in the movie Matrix, I’ve, I forgot the character, but there’s this one, one character with mustache and the bald guy, right?

And

Denny Goler: he- yeah Cypher,

Sam Believ: yeah. He betrayed his team, and then he decided to go back into simulation, forget everything, and just live a, an awesome sort of life. I don’t know where I’m going with

Denny Goler: that. No, I know exactly what you’re asking, is what is the point of discovering a space that you will never have anything to do with?

Is that along the lines of the question?

Sam Believ: Kinda, yeah. Can you… what is outside of the simulation, right? Like-

Denny Goler: Yeah. So I think… How much time do we got? This one is a complex one. Yeah. Let- okay, let’s try, let… Okay, let’s try and break it down simply. So there’s two things here to be considered.

The first one is that the situation we’re in, according to what I’m saying it’s not like in The Matrix. So we’re not in prison. It’s that all of reality is computational. So it’s not like there’s a computer world that is a prison and you have to get out to the real world. The real world is computational.

We are the subset. It’s almost like a little piece of a much larger

Sam Believ: space. Like a

Denny Goler: program. But all of it is. All of them are programs. There’s not one thing that isn’t. Like

Sam Believ: a program within an operating system.

Denny Goler: Yeah, but the operating system itself, it’s of the same kind. So you’re not in prison.

Let’s just point that out. You’re not in prison. There’s nowhere to escape. People immediately say, “How do we escape the matrix?” You don’t. The matrix is everything there is. It’s just that th- in, in this case, the matrix becomes a, a problematic term ’cause we associate the movie with prison and all of that, but it’s not like that, right?

So there’s nowhere to go but exactly where you are. But the larger understanding allows you to do potentially more, just like when you discover more laws of physics, you can do more. That’s really all the only thing that is added here. If it’s true, we wanna know it, right? So now, this, the, there’s this other component that is a little bit more difficult to outline in a short period of time, but- The truth is that we are somehow swimming in a world that on the one hand feels alien to us, on the other feels like there’s nothing else for us, right?

So if you… So it’s like the question you asked me about the one fish that discovered that he’s a fish in an aquarium, it’s exactly the same thing that all species do when they manage to do all of a sudden a thing they couldn’t do before. If one metaphor I’ve been using recently was the, if there’s creatures in the forest and they’re always like, their neck muscles don’t allow them to look up, right?

So they’re just only looking down. But they live, they perfectly fine. They’re just, on the ground and they eat little things on the ground. They can maybe look to the side a little bit to see each other kind of, but they have no idea there are trees. They, but the trees are real, right? And just like in the aquarium example, because they are the kind of creature that developed to just live off the ground, the trees are not relevant to them currently.

But imagine one of them all of a sudden is born with some kind of an operation and they can look up now. Their neck muscles allow them to look up. They look up and they’re like, “Oh.” And then they look down and start telling people about “Oh my God,” “This, look up.” And they’re like, “What does that mean?

I don’t even know what that means.” In the meanwhile, they’re looking like, “Oh my God, now I know why we’re being, why we just disappear sometimes.” Because there’s these flying things, and sometimes one of them comes and takes one of us. But to others, it’s just like it doesn’t make any sense.

So then you’re asking me So what is the point of that neck muscle? It’s not like it has a point, it’s just that’s what happened. So what I’m equivocating to this neck muscle is that humans have certain mental abilities. We are entering a more universal space of operation. Th- this is why the equivocation with other animals is a little problematic when you equate it to humans, because we are a little different in that regard.

So our neck, all of our extra muscles now grow inside the head, or our ability to perceive more. And when we start to do that asking should we is an irrelevant question because we can. So if you can, what, what do you do then? S- just stop looking up? You see what I’m saying? So it’s like, okay, then now you’re capable of that.

So the species who are aware of you but you’re not aware of them, now they have an ethical obligation to maybe he- if they’re a, a, a good species, they have an ethical obligation to help you understand and… ‘Cause now you can look up. They can’t prevent you from looking up. That’s… Why would they do that?

That’s like intervening with a different species, right? No. Now I’ll help you understand. Another example that I was using that may be a little easier to see I don’t know if you know this, but recently some monkeys were observed to enter kinda like their version of the Stone Age, ’cause they found that some of them are using spears to fish, things like this.

So if this trend will continue, eventually this species and maybe other species of monkeys and and apes will start evolving probably in a somewhat of a similar way to what humans went through hundreds of thousands of years ago, maybe millions of years ago. And by then, because, technology goes like this, right?

By then we would be traversing the stars, going to other galaxies, whatever. Okay, then look at it from our perspective. If we’re the more advanced species and we’re seeing them evolving into this space, we now know that they’re probably capable of more advanced thought, and therefore more capable, more prone for other kinds of suffering, ’cause the more you expand the mind, it, there’s all kinds of d- degrees of freedom you can suffer in, right?

So then if we’re using these enormous ships around them It’s too much. It’s so we would have… if we can, we have to think of ways to make ourselves less noticeable to them so we don’t disturb their evolution, right? And then we, if we can, we make ourselves invisible to them until the point when they are capable of understanding the, the, what we’re doing and why that is, and then at that point, we’re no longer allowed to stop them from understanding more.

But what we can do is help them understand more. So if you look at it from our perspective, so in this case, we are the monkeys, and we are kinda reaching this new level of understanding with these spiritual realms, and there’s an entire ecosystem of other species that exist there, and they see us and we don’t see them most of the time.

Some people do. Some people have these neck muscles, and they’ve been telling us. But when we evolve enough, they’re… It’s not an option for them to tell us, “Hey, stop evolving.” That’s not, that’s just natural way of… So then they will help us understand. And I think that everything we heard from, all of these attempts throughout the ages, through religions the golden rule, all these things, it’s essentially little nudges, like little hints that they’re giving us constantly.

It’s like, “Hey, you might wanna get your behavior like this. Just behave like this. Because if you will, we can allow you in to the larger, galactic family or whatever. If you won’t, it’s not like we don’t want to let you in, but we just can’t. Y- if you c- if you don’t have your act together on a certain level, you’re not invited.”

So that’s what I think is going on, which is like we evolve to a level where we start to understand they can’t stop us from evolving, for keep, from keeping evolving, so they’re gently trying to help us to kinda understand more. Does that make sense?

Sam Believ: Kinda, yeah. I- when you were talking about, like, all other species, like obviously there’s- If I’m this advanced species and monkeys are evolving, my intuition wouldn’t be like, “Oh, let’s just leave them alone.”

Mine would be like why don’t we give them some mushrooms and see if they evolve even faster?” Sh-

Denny Goler: and no and we will. But in addition to that, the operation that we can’t stop because it’s a part- part of our infrastructure. Imagine if there’s something… Imagine something super specific, like if there’s a, a star base somewhere around where they live and it’s super loud and crazy because we haven’t figured out how to do it quietly yet.

What… D- does that sound ethical? No. You’re, like, disturbing their peace, right? And also, you’re really scaring them ’cause they don’t know what’s going on. Yeah, you will give them mushrooms and all of that, but it will still take them time to evolve. So you wanna be aware of where they are in their level of understanding.

I agree with you. We wanna give them more and more tools, and if we can accelerate their process in a way that won’t disturb it, we should also do that. But in the meanwhile, whatever is already in place, if it’s part of our, infrastructure that requires our existence, and I think that these species, they just found a way to become invisible.

They are… The reason that the universe seems empty is because they just made themselves either dark matter or whatever it is. Now, all of these, obviously these ideas are, like, super, out there and I’m not claiming to know this for sure, but I do know that there are other species for sure.

That I know ’cause I’m interacting with them on a regular basis. So- Yeah.

Sam Believ: That’s, that, that’s pretty fringe, yeah. But let’s let’s assume that people listening to this podcast are into Ayahuasca and they’ve seen plenty of crazy things themselves and-

…

Sam Believ: Will allow themselves to go through this thought experiment just for the sake of entertainment.

Basically what you’re trying to say is if I succeed in my dream of giving Ayahuasca to everyone and we awaken the consciousness, then we will unlock the aliens finally.

Denny Goler: We will reach certain level of a- awareness from which they’re just obviously there, yeah.

Sam Believ: Cool. Okay, let’s go back to more-

practical stuff. It is a simulation. What you’re saying is correct. We’ve proven it’s a simulation. How do we if we can’t leave it, how do we use it to make our simulations more comfortable? Let’s say, obviously, I’m a big believer in manifestation. Everything I have in life right now was a dream for me five years ago, and I kinda manifested it, right?

So knowing that, is the, is, does it does it allow any perks? Is there any practical use cases?

Or is it not the point?

Denny Goler: I think not much more than you would get than from, let’s say, what you do. So I think that is actually… So knowing that there are simula- that there are computational rules behind the laws of physics, if you find ways to perturb these computational rules, it will for sure give you abilities that are way greater than, than we currently have.

You maybe can move faster than light, maybe you can bend a lot. And again, these ideas are not mine. These are, ha- have existed for a long time a- among serious scientists. I don’t know if you’re familiar with Donald Hoffman’s work, but it’s very much along these lines. Wheeler famously coined the term “it from bit.”

These ideas go way back. The, the question about practical in the day-to-day I don’t think so or not immediately. I think that the much more relevant work is how we, as software inside of this computational reality, is operating with more harmony with its immediate environment, which has a lot more to do with your work than it has to do with my work.

So the healing, the rebalancing of this, of the human species through individuals, I think that’s really the main… That’s where the rubber touches the road. And I do believe that eventually, and, time will tell if I’m right about this, but when enough of us collectively reach a certain state of harmony just naturally, so there’s not so much tra- generational trauma to heal, but there’s more just kinda like humans that are born to parents that are already healed, so then they grow up to be a pretty different human, right?

I do believe that certain abilities will open up, and I don’t think they’re magic. I think that there are certain informational channels that when you’re aligned with them, you can operate through them. I’m sure you’re probably familiar with the telepathy tapes. So I think that the reason that all the kids from the telepathy tapes are constantly talking about love and all of these things, I think it’s because in order to be able to do that easily, like to really have telepathy that like I’m moving my hand, you have to occupy a certain state of being which is aligned with these other channels that are open for other beings.

So I do believe that from a practical standpoint, in the immediate moment, it won’t show much promise of that kind. But enough time if you do focus on the stuff like healing and, bringing humanity to a more equilibrium state, then certain real abilities, even very technical abilities, maybe even moving objects with your mind, things like this I would not rule this out.

Like it would… I don’t know if that’s the case, but I wouldn’t be surprised. I wouldn’t be surprised if you all of a sudden can do certain things that previously you couldn’t, just simply because you aligned.

Sam Believ: Yeah, it’s an interesting thought. W- what if it’s like a four-minute mile, like, when this person ran a four-minute mile first, and before people thought it was not possible.

Now we have this knowledge, and then second, once again, I don’t really quote Matrix that much, but in this conversation comes up very often. But there’s he’s in this place and there’s this kid bending the spoon, right? So it’s like just seeing him do it probably makes you believe more.

It’s like, kind of power of mind over matter. I guess if you prove it, then it makes it even more so would, would that knowledge being largely… Let’s say you prove your theory and we get even more science there and we just K- like we believe quantum physics now, right?

Because it’s been proven, so we are working quantum computers, right? So to work on quantum computers, we first need to believe that quantum physics is real. So it’s like- … what if we believe that s- it’s a simulation and then it unlocks something in front of it after one person does it. Maybe some form of a prophet comes and be like, “Yeah, by the way, here’s how you do this.”

And then everyone’s like, “Speaking of prophets, you look awful like Jesus.”

Denny Goler: Yeah. Keep, people keep telling me. I try to cut my hair. The universe wouldn’t let me, so I took it as a sign. Like the- I actually tried to cut my hair exactly because of that and it was really funny ’cause, because I did not want people to think that.

Sam Believ: Yeah.

Denny Goler: But it just literally just kept on not happening, so I was like, “Okay. I’ll take this as a sign for now.”

Sam Believ: You look specifically like a Christian Orthodox version of Jesus, which is the religion to which I was baptized. N- I’m not very religious, but I did have my experiences.

Denny Goler: The, the Russians are very…

That’s basically the mainstream in Russia. I am Russian originally, so maybe that’s why.

Sam Believ: Interesting. But yeah. L- you have any thoughts about the, the original question before the Jesus part?

Denny Goler: The four-minute mile. But what was it specifically? You have a question about that, though.

Sam Believ: Yeah, the question is- If no what do you think about people knowing that it’s the thing, and then m- it proving that mind over matter even more, will it allow people to everyone all of a sudden everyone starts to live good because people just start manifesting positive things?

Yeah. Mind the… this is a very uncomfortable conversation for me. That’s I never have podcasts like this. People will be like, “What is he talking about?”

Denny Goler: So let me connect it to something. Is it mo- Okay, so let me understand. Is it people that… Because if you’re coming from the Ayahuasca community, I would assume that a lot of people would have an open mind about spirits, no?

Sam Believ: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I think it’s a enough of a stretch where people accept. What I’m s- what I’m trying to… normally I focus on like science, healing brain- Okay … mental health. So it’s like I’m trying to get something practically useful from it to people

Denny Goler: so like- so let me conne- let me connect it to something practical and useful.

Okay. To my mind, this way that we’re defining science currently, it just happens to be an artifact of the times that we’re in. It is not the ultimate way of doing science. To me, a science of a mature species, capital S science, is the enterprise of understanding Full stop. Which means you can investigate what, what is available to understand about the world through the modality of inner observation, combine it with external tools, combine it with whatever.

Those are modalities. Currently, we value external modalities more than others because they give us some solidification of information that seems to be interpersonal. So it’s not just my impression, but it’s also something we can part- share with other individuals. But for example, I absolutely see meditation as the science of the inner world, because in science we observe what we’re trying to study closely.

We’re trying to find patterns, we’re trying to find ways to communicate these patterns across individuals and see if they’re replicable, and then we wanna see if we can actually do something with it, right? Meditation is exactly this. You study your inner space of perception very closely for hours and hours every day, and you share that information.

Others can replicate that experiment, and by the way, this is corroborated by a lot of actual data and observation. So if you guys are not familiar, then Richie Davidson, just look it up, has been doing studies with functional MRI in people, m- long-term meditators for decades, and he found without a shadow of a doubt that their brains are different, and we can show this, right?

And they can do things that other peoples can’t. They can turn off their d- default mode network on command, just like you moving your hand. That’s an ability that is acquired over time. So just like you said, in order to first even to make it possible at all, you have to first accept that there’s something there, and then you have to investigate it, right?

So to me, science, we just need to expand the bubble of what we call science. We, we– it doesn’t mean we have to get lost in nonsense and craziness. I really love a Terence McKenna quote that says we can criticize the enterprise of science, but no one is at liberty to abandon common sense.” Fully agree.

So we can absolutely follow common sense, but we can also allow for certain kinds of ideas that on the surface might look a little wacky in the beginning, but if we look at the details, and if you look at the seriousness of the and the caliber of certain kind of people that start to accepting them, then all of a sudden it doesn’t sound that crazy.

Ultimately, I agree with you fully that unless we deliver something that you can actually do something with, it will always remain this floating idea. I agree with that. A lot of people think that maybe I– and I am answering your question by the way. I’m I’m getting there. A lot of people think that I walked around a l- by a laser one day while on DMT and noticed it.

No. I was directly investigating how I can potentially discern whether the DMT space is real or just imaginary. And after years of thinking about this, of reading scientific papers and trying all kinds of things, and everything failed, eventually I cracked one thing. Yeah, it’s not the, like it’s not yet, the full thing, but I found something that works.

Okay we’re not at liberty to ignore this. One of the biggest contentions that people had for a long time about these, this question of whether the, what we see on psychedelics is real or not was sure, sometimes people see things that are kinda similar, but it can also be archetypes, or there’s always this other thing that people say, right?

It’s like we don’t know. It doesn’t really mean anything.” Okay. What people said is can you f- can you find something that everybody would agree on?” Here it is. I found it. There’s something that everybody can agree on. So then now people have different contentions. They’re like, “Yeah, but this and but that.”

Okay. Well- Fine, but let’s start with the fact that we delivered on something, right? Now let’s together walk step by step what is the most rational explanation of what that is. I think I kinda know where this is going, but I’m open for revision. And ultimately, I think that what this what would be the, this thing that you’re asking about, which is what is this practical thing, it’s kinda the same question as asking when quantum physics was discovered.

Nobody ever thought it would be applicable to our lives. People thought it would just always be this kind of like theoretical thing. Within a decade, it changed the world because we all of a sudden could create transistors and computers only by knowing things about quantum physics. We couldn’t do it before.

Now, will it follow a similar trajectory? Of course, I don’t know. But I do know that if something is true, we want to know it for the, just by the fact that it is true. So to me, that alone encapsulates value. Beyond that, I can tell you that those are already an- anecdotal, but it definitely does something for people.

So y- I’m not, I’ve never ran a, a, a real study in which we really kinda studied people over time and saw how they react. We haven’t done that. But I can tell you from experience that it solidifies the reality that there’s more than this in ways that it’s very hard to deliver otherwise.

People are convinced of a lot when they go through Ayahuasca, and it’s very impactful for them. I had a pretty spiritually oriented m- minded person. The woman came and, she saw the laser, and she exclaimed, “I knew it,” when she saw it. And then later she told me that in that moment she realized she never believed herself.

So like she acted as if she knows all of these things, but then when she saw it, she was like, “I knew it,” but then she realized she didn’t believe herself. So it soli- it makes it more real for people. Now I think that can be considered valuable, but I don’t have a straightforward answer about ’cause I don’t really know, over time what this will amount to. I’m operating much more from like a scientific perspective, which is if something is real about the world, we want to know about it so we can understand how we can orient ourselves towards it. That’s my attitude towards that.

Sam Believ: I think it is valuable. Let’s say someone Through meditation, spirituality, or through psychedelics discovers that l- yeah, after we die, we don’t actually just rot and disappear. We actually have afterlife, and there’s some meaning behind all this, right? Personally, for me, that was the biggest change in my mindset in a way that I used to believe, you live, you die, and that’s it, and it’s depressive, right?

But if you think about it now, you know you die, and then something else. It’s not the end. So proving and having more proof that, yes, this is actually the case is good for you personally because I think it’s a more helpful set of beliefs than just believing that nothing happens. So I think there is definitely value in that.

But you mentioned computers, and you mentioned doing science, and I’m a big believer. Obviously, computers, the way they exist now is thanks to some scientists tripping on LSD some time ago. And now my kids are trying to get in. Give me one second. That’s

Denny Goler: o- of course. No problem.

Sam Believ: Hi, baby girl ¿Qué pasó? Estoy grabando. Venga, vamos a un pódcast. Vamos a mostrar la niña en un pódcast

Denny Goler: Ruby

Sam Believ: Here’s my daughter Oh,

Denny Goler: come here baby. Oh, hi. What’s her name?

Sam Believ: Alona.

Denny Goler: Alona. This is Eden. Say hi, Eden.

Sam Believ: And here’s a baby too.

Denny Goler: How old is Alona?

Sam Believ: She’s a year and a half.

Denny Goler: Oh, wow. So cute. This is Eden.

She’s just six months.

Sam Believ: Ciao, bye baby.

Denny Goler: Alona. Alona is a ve- It’s actually a very Russian name.

Sam Believ: Yeah. My, my wife is Colombian, but he, she decided to give her a Russian name ’cause she read a Russian book. And she- I’m the Russian speaker, but she’s the one that came up with the name.

Denny Goler: Really? Sh- so her middle name is Lena, but it’s

Sam Believ: Cool.

Denny Goler: Yeah.

Sam Believ: So it’s it’s a bit unusual for the podcast, but with basically for those watching on a video, we just had a baby show off. So if you’re not watching on the video, check it out on YouTube, Ayahuasca Podcast. It’s very cute. But yeah, going back to the topic. So science, LSD, obviously people that came up with the idea of computers, right?

They were tripping. The person that came up with the idea of DNA and double helix also was tripping. Yep. So it’s like I have this belief, and I’ve been talking about it for a long time, that the moment we stop studying psychedelics and the moment we start studying on psychedelics, this is where we really can blow through.

Of course they’re probably not gonna get us out of the simulation, but I think we can probably achieve a lot. What do you think about that and using psychedelics for science?

Denny Goler: I think it- it’s a good, it’s a good start, but then eventually we would want to learn how to instantiate these functions in ourselves, or k- arrive na- naturally is the wrong word, but just arrive at them more with the architecture of our own brains.

Or help, maybe modify our brains in the proper way so we can just kinda induce that function. So I think the … Because you want things to be more integrated versus a thing that you have to partake from the external world. But I absolutely think you’re correct. So there’s … M- one of my theories about what’s going on is that there’s another continuum to light, aside from frequency, that we don’t quite understand.

It’s like another direction in light that you can see, and that’s maybe what’s happening when we’re on DMT, that we can all of a sudden see behind the corner, so to speak, inside the light in such a way that gives us more information. And maybe there’s a lot of other things that we need to try this way.

So I would absolutely agree with it. But I also think that- Well- … eventually we’ll be able to do it ourselves.

Sam Believ: It’s kinda DMT is natural, right? There’s probably a way for us to- get more of it, and then in our dreams how much of a role it already plays in our thinking?

It’s,

Denny Goler: How much role of what, sorry?

Sam Believ: How much of a role does DMT al- already play in our thinking? You know- I don’t- And also endocannabinoids, and just the fact that, we are, we’re basically just a neurochemical machine. We’re… All of our brain is- Yeah … just a soup of neurotransmitters, right?

Denny Goler: The reason I said that I don’t like the word natural because it’s very confusing and it- it’s also not indicative of anything. ‘Cause anything that exists is natural, including plastic and oil and all of these things that we criticize ourselves doing, right? It- it’s more like, does it create a more harmonious environment, external and internal, over time, or does it…

is it some kind of a jolting disruptor? That’s a good distinction. So there’s ways in which life unfold that is more harmonious, and ways in which life like just kinda, just takes everything, almost like cancer, right? Yeah. In that regard, I think that, yeah, the, even though DMT is also produced in the body, maybe there is a certain quantity that your body simply can’t make.

Maybe, I don’t know. It’s almost like, just like you said, when somebody imagined, the 100-me- meter dash and when it comes to extreme sports it’s even more pronounced, like the achievements just kinda keep growing when the second somebody does it. But at no point will anybody ever be able to jump to the moon.

You see what I’m saying? For that you will need a rocket, ’cause it’s just the laws of physics all of a sudden, there’s a limit. So maybe it’s something like this. Maybe there is a certain amount we can induce ourselves, beyond which you have to go through actual modifications. Maybe not. I’m not sure.

But the real answers will come only if we try. And that’s something that somebody has to do, obviously.

Sam Believ: Okay. Before we wrap up, just one last question I cannot finish without asking you, but let’s talk about entities, right? Who is running the simulation? Wh- and why did the frog teach you how to play guitar?

Denny Goler: I think the guitar bit was b- to anybody who doesn’t know, basically I had a frog dude that appeared for me, and then he showed me how to play some chords, w- which I didn’t know how to do. So he… I think it was a communication. He was basically saying, “I’m real ’cause you don’t know how to do this.”

There’s no way you’re getting this information from your im- imagination ’cause you have no idea how to do this. And who’s com- who’s controlling the simulation? So this layer, and again this is where now that I know what flavor your podcast is of, so this is gonna sound super out there, but I guess bear with me everybody.

According to my so far every all the information that I’ve collected from both my experiences and what I’ve heard other people say but mostly relies on kinda like my direct observation in there. These insectoids that a lot of people meet, they seem to be the master race that, that literally executes the physical environment.

So they are the simulators. And then there’s other species, but they are… They’re either not as prominent or they belong to a different level of operation of the simulation. So they’re not responsible for executing the physical space. So the, the insectoids seem to be the, what you would call the simulators, but what they’re simulating is just the initial conditions.

So they’re not really… It’s more, it… They’re more responsible for error correction than anything else ’cause it’s all automated, but they’re the ones that tending to the layer that we’re in.

Sam Believ: Okay. Yeah, we definitely went far this time, but it’s- Yeah … it’s cool. I think it’s also there’s a merit in f- learning new things and allowing yourself to question reality. Because even for people that only view Ayahuasca as a tool for healing, eventually you’re gonna get there. If you just keep drinking Ayahuasca, you’re gonna come to this exploration of reality, entities, s- like deep deeps first first person spirituality in a way where you yourself experience that.

So thank you so- Have you

Denny Goler: met a lot of entities, if you don’t mind me asking?

Sam Believ: Sorry m- my coughing. So when you mentioned the, the frog dude teaching how to play guitar as in to show you like, “Look, I’m real,” like there’s no way you could have known it. It rem- it reminded me once I had an experience in which I was interacting with an entity which was like this Egyptian god with a crocodile head.

And I, I didn’t really know much about it before. I never even know its name. I didn’t… Like I, I might have seen a picture somewhere. That’s about it. And it was teaching me something and it was kinda telling me it came exactly for a ceremony after we had a big avalanche across the creek. Like there was a m- mud mass passed right by us and we were all safe.

It’s a once every 300 years event, but we’re still relatively far away from it, but it did scare me. And then when I was looking up that entity next day on internet, it said that it is an entity Egyptians used to protect against natural elements, specifically rivers. He was a god of rivers.

And I was like, that makes a lot of sense and there’s no way I could have known it.” And thus it proved for me that there is this cloud in which if information is placed we can access it later. I don’t know how well- Is

Denny Goler: it not the being that weighs, that does the, decides whether your soul is gonna be eaten or something like that, or continue to the next one or something like that?

I thought it was like the one with the judgment.

Sam Believ: No, I’m not sure. For as far as I know it’s the one that Egyptians pray to when they, when the Nile flooded too much or n- not flooded enough. That’s… and it was, like a god of protection against rivers. So for me it was very timely.

Which one does the judgment? Is it the one with the- I

Denny Goler: think he also has a crocodile head. That’s what I thought.

Sam Believ: Okay.

Denny Goler: We can, Basically he’s the one that kind of stands with this infinite… He’s the ultimate judge and then if you haven’t passed the test then he eats you. He eats your soul.

Sam Believ: Egyptian god that makes a judgment.

Denny Goler: Egyptian god. Yeah.

Sam Believ: Let me ask the internet. Anubis. Anubis, yeah. No, I think Anubis has the dog’s head.

Denny Goler: So then if you ju- wait. Croc-

Sam Believ: Jamie, look it up. I need a Jamie.

Denny Goler: It has a-

Sam Believ: Yeah, it’s like a dog. A-

Denny Goler: Like a dog? Yeah. Okay. I was convinced there was a crocodile involved. No, it’s a crocodile.

Sam Believ: Is it?

Denny Goler: Yep.

Sam Believ: Okay. My AI begs to differ, but let’s research it After we finish the episode.

Denny Goler: You’re in a different timeline where it is a dog.

Sam Believ: Yeah. We’re in a parallel realities, right?

Denny Goler: Yeah.

Sam Believ: It’s… i’m an entity for you, and you’re an entity for me.

Denny Goler: That’s beautiful.

Sam Believ: Cool. Danny, thank you so much for this very interesting episode.

Definitely made me wanna experiment a lot, and I definitely need to get some lasers

Denny Goler: I will send you, I will send you exactly the, the kind that you need to get. It’s very simple.

Sam Believ: Sounds good. And I appreciate your brother … where can people find more about your work?

Where can they follow you?

Denny Goler: All my links are on dannygoler.com, so D-A-N-N-Y-G-O-L-E-R.com. And my main thing is my YouTube channel, so it’s Dango Thoughts on YouTube. D-A-N-G-O Thoughts.

Sam Believ: Beautiful. Thank you so

Denny Goler: much. Oh, and one final thing I will mention, I don’t know when this is gonna air, but we… I have start, I have started finally…

I’m gonna do a shameless plug. I have finally started a series of retreats which we’ll only do maybe two or three a year. One is coming up now. If I’m not mistaken, we might be already full for this one. But if anybody’s interested, they can go to corretreat.com, which is just C-O-R retreat.com, and you can find out more about it.

Sam Believ: Perfect. Guys, you were listening to Ayahuasca Podcast. As always, we are the host, Sam Believ, and I will see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you’d like to support us and Psychedelic Renaissance at large, please follow us and leave us a wherever it is you’re listening.

Share this episode with someone who will benefit from this information. Nothing in this podcast is intended as medical advice, and it is for educational and entertainment purposes only. This episode is sponsored by LaWayra Ayahuasca Retreat. At LaWayra, we combine affordability, accessibility, and authenticity.

LaWayra, connect, heal, grow. Guys, I’m looking forward to hosting you